I apologize beforehand for this thread, but what is wrong with

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>>51637716
You're fighting against years of bait and shitposting, anon. It doesn't matter what 3.pf is anymore; It could literally shit gold and it wouldn't matter. It doesn't help that it's got some flaws, that help the bait keep rolling.

Besides, you're on fucking 4chan, if you wanted an actual discussion you'd go to your local game story and talk to people about the system you like or whatever. This is bait, but at least it's relatively fresh.

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>>51637716
They're just trolls, and the kind of threads that shit all over 3.PF are made all the time because they get replies.

Trolls want attention, and shitposting about 3.PF gets you attention. You're getting some attention right now just bringing it up!

>>51637716
It's not trolls. It's politics, and a hot button issue at that. That's like going into a political discussion forum and creating a thread with the title "Abortion is OK" and not expecting Shit to get flung from both sides.

3.PF is a legitimately flawed game and dismissing all criticism of it as trolling just shows how insecure the fanbase around it is.

Appealing to popularity as proof of quality is just another sign of this.

It's a bad game. That doesn't mean the fun you have with it is invalid, or that the effort you've put in to learn the system and actually make it work is wasted, but denying the truth doesn't help anyone. Truly appreciating a system enjoys an honest and open acceptance of its flaws, and the primary complaints about 3.PF come when elements of the fanbase refuse to acknowledge this.

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>>51637716
>not posting the most recent stats showing 3.PF's continual decline and 5e's continual growth

>>51637870
Ah look, one of these trolls now.
Trying to justify his shitposting, and pretending his transparent one-sided approach to the game is "honest and open acceptance", rather than "exaggerated criticism."

Name ten good things about the system if you want me to believe your intention is getting people to "truly appreciate it."

>>51637716

>Defending pathfinder

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>>51637716

Because it is terrible and the last vestige of the vile D20 running dogs who have ruined the hobby for the last time!

The so-called-"People's" Patriotic Pathfinder Party shall be as unto dust beneath the boots of the Democratic People's Dungeon & Dragons Continuity Army (fifth edition)!
For we shall cast out the "Four Imbalances" of:
- a badly written feat system
- caster supremacy
- healing specialisation
- "Use Rope"

Never again shall a caster break a GM's railroad! Never again shall the thief have nothing to contribute to the party as a whole! Never again shall a monk PC ruin an overwise CR appropriate encounter! Never again shall a Martial fear picking a "trap" feat!

>>51637716
Because 3.PF is a bad system. It has been 'evaluated' down to it's very fucking bones a million times over and the conclusion hasn't changed.

If people attacking it triggers you enough that you feel like you need to make a heartfelt thread full of feeble justifications for your attempt to police the morality of an anonymous image board, I suggest you locate the fucking door.

You have no empirical evidence of how many people dislike 3.PF, so you label them as 'a small group of dedicated trolls', because god forbid the idea that you and your system are legitimately unpopular. No, obviously it's an invisible bogeyman working from the shadows, a small group who are launching a co-ordinated attack out of sheer maliciousness.

90% of people who use the word 'troll' these days are operating on an unfathomable level of wilful denial, you can effectively disregard any argument which contains it.

Fuck yourself with a cactus OP.

>>51637918
Well, to be fair, the value of the Actor and Observant feats change depending on who your GM is.

Also Moon Druids do control the meta for the first five levels, but definitely taper off, which may or may not be an issue. They do get silly by 18th level though, but by that time Everyone is prett6 damn strong.

>>51637896

Well, the sheer breadth of content is worth noting. Even restricting classes to tier 3/4 and thoroughly vetting character options like feats and items, you still end up with a quantity of usable content far in excess of any printed system.

This applies to settings and adventure modules too, in terms of support for running the game in terms of pure content 3.PF is unsurpassed.

It also has some excellently written books with truly great ideas. The Tome of Battle/Path of War books in particular are fucking fantastic, managing to fix some key issues in the system and make Martial characters actually interesting and fun to play.

Its class system does a good job of making mechanically distinct characters with their own identity in how they function within the system?

Actually, that keys into a larger point, that the huge number of available subsystems make character distinction very significant, letting different people interact with the system in very different ways, even if you do filter out the top and bottom ends of the power curve.

That might not be ten, but that's six or seven strengths of 3.PF, even if more don't immediately spring to mind. And my previous post still applies.

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>>51637952
>If people attacking it triggers you enough

But son, you are the triggersed.

>>51637867
It's not politics. It's just a game. A popular game, but that's it.

To say "3.PF is okay" isn't something inflammatory to anyone except for these trolls. For most people, they recognize that while it's got flaws and they might prefer other games, there's a lot of good material in the system. Some advice might be needed to navigate it, but the same can be said about any large system. Calling it okay should hardly be the equivalent of trying to push politics here.

To treat a popular traditional game as an inflammatory topic just because of a few trolls is simply giving the trolls what they want.

>>51637716
Maybe stop getting triggered by other people's fucking opinions. Of course people are going to be more likely to bring up the percieved flaws of a well known system over Ars Magica or whatever.

>why do people only seem to criticize Islam and Christianity on the innernet????
Learn to think in more than one step you dipshit.

>>51637982
That's not ten, but it's at least an effort.

>And my previous post still applies.
But, your assertion that it is a "bad game" is diminished, and you seem to be able to recognize that one-sided criticism of the system isn't the whole picture of it, the central thesis of the argument and one of the many criticisms against these trolls.

You are free to dislike a system as much as you want. But, to be trying to stop people from discussing the system beyond its flaws is another matter entirely, and what these trolls seem to be quite insistent upon.

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>>51637716
>2017
>playing Pathfinder

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>>51638015
>To say "3.PF is okay" isn't something inflammatory to anyone except for these trolls.

How about "the people who talk shit about 3.PF are a small cabal of trolls who's complaints are exaggerated or imagined, how dare they come onto a forum about discussing traditional games and discuss the most popular traditional game of all?" Would that be inflammatory?

>>51637716
Ok, you want to know the real reason? /tg/ needs Scapegoats. It's something that 5e and GURPS players can come to and say "While I hate you, your system, and everything you stand for, I can at least congratulate you on not playing Pathfinder."

The Kitsune poster on /pfg/ is one of the trolls. He hates the system enough to hijack the OP, post his shitty waifu, and give The thread the current rep it has.

>>51638054

You'll note that none of the strengths I cited rely on the core systems of the game. This is because those systems are bad.

That good things were done with them doesn't stop them being bad.

>>51637716
I like 3.5, 4e, and 5e.
I don't know where to sit at the edition warroom

>>51637886
But anon, those stats show that pathfinder is growing, just not nearly as quickly as 5e. Why would you post that, unless you're trying to push some sort of agenda like a faggot.

You're not a faggot, are you?

Oh man, how do I get a slice of this victim complex?

It's not as bad as you make it out to be, and every system gets trolls.

>>51637982
>This applies to settings and adventure modules too, in terms of support for running the game in terms of pure content 3.PF is unsurpassed.
I'd say the OSR blogosphere is very much competition in terms of amount of content. There's an insane amount of material for free, so many different hacks and homebrews, but all vaguely compatible.
>>51637982
>The Tome of Battle/Path of War books in particular are fucking fantastic, managing to fix some key issues in the system
Shouldn't have needed to be fixed, though.

>>51638153

Oh, absolutely. None of those strengths stop 3.PF sucking, I was just countering the statement that 3.PF 'trolls' can't say anything good about the system.

>>51638132
5e is fine.(boring at times, but fine) 4e is the red-haired middle child who did nothing wrong(or anything right), and 3.5 is at least not Pathfinder.

Nobody hates on TSR D&D because none of us would rather admit we're part of the younger generation, and getting reprimanded by our seniors.

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>>51638140
The overall count is up because the sample size is larger. The total player and game share of 3.PF is down overall, by an amount of about 2% share each quarter about Q1 2015. Note the percentages.

It's like saying "We asked 500 people and only 20 play our game. But then later we asked 1000 people and 25 play our game. That means our game is growing!"

>>51637918
>"Use Rope"

Kek.

>>51638187
Pathfinder is okay, but given an equal choice between 3.5 and Pf its 3.5 every day. I also played in a Brown Box one shot and had a great time, so I guess the only thing I haven't experienced in the DnD extended family is 2e.

Among all choices of system I'd pick 5e as my favorite, but I'll enjoy any of them.

>>51638123
Alright, name ten good things about the core systems if you want to be taken seriously then. Sheesh. If you really just want to be called out for being a troll, don't do a song and dance to pretend you aren't one.

>>51638187
>Nobody hates on TSR D&D because none of us would rather admit we're part of the younger generation, and getting reprimanded by our seniors.

I've been known to hate on it. It grew on me, but it was a slow process. There's a bunch of shit present in it that I still think is bloody retarded.

>>51638266

That I can't do. The core systems just aren't very good.

I mean, I guess HP based combat works okay if you focus exclusively on it, but the huge number of things which completely ignore and obviate it make it kinda irrelevant.

AC is... A decent simplification? But again, in so many cases it becomes irrelevant to the actual combat system you can't really call it strong.

Skills are... Okay? If you're not in a situation where magic is making most of them irrelevant or some characters are completely screwed through having nowhere near enough skill points.

What else... I guess positioning is okay? Not that it matters for most magic, but if you're playing the combat dumb it matters and the AoO rules do a decent job of rewarding clever positioning, more with feat support. Again still irrelevant compared to most things people who aren't restricted to hitting people in the face can do, but worth mentioning.

There's a good amount of variety in combat actions? Even if most of them are worthless without feat investment and even with feat investment are worse than spells.

The CR system is a good idea? Even if it's incredibly broken and the CR of an encounter has no actual relation to its actual difficulty, the concept was sound and I guess that it paved the way for better versions in future games is a plus?

I'm kinda struggling here, as might be obvious.

>>51638266
>you can't criticize the system unless you like it

Fucking hell, what kind of a bubble do you live in? People like you are the reason Paizo can't design their way out of a wet paper bag.

>>51638393
Basically, what you've got here is simple. You've spent too long doing nothing but collecting criticisms, that you can't even produce a simple list of ten good things about the cores system.

It sounds like rather than trying to educate other people on the system, you're better off being educated yourself first.

>>51638529

As an expert, could you provide ten good things about D&D's core systems? Maybe it would help?

>>51638529
Of course, you haven't considered the alternative: you're wrong, and the core system just isn't that good.

>>51638529
That is absolutely insane reasoning.
NAME 10 REASONS THIS PILE OF DOG POO TASTES NICE. YOU CAN'T? GUESS YOU ARE JUST UNEDUCATED

>>51638589
I apologize beforehand for this post, but what is wrong with these Anti-dog poo trolls?

They're like rabid dogs. You can't even mention the poo without them flocking to it to try and shut down any discussion about it. Rather than discussing the actual turd, all they want to do is drop their copypasta lists of exaggerated flaws they've gathered over the years, to pretend that dog poo has no merits and the only thing worth talking about are its problems.

It's not a healthy mindset, because it's clearly board politics at play, and that's something we should not be encouraging. I understand that dog poo is an old type of poo, but trying to scare everyone away from talking about it with rampant shitposting, no matter how much you personally think it's justified or how cleverly you think you are hiding your intentions, is neither fair to the people who want to discuss the poo nor productive towards any end goal.

There's this idea that if people can scare people away from dog poo that they will fall in love with other types of poo, and while it's nice to encourage people to try other poos, it shouldn't be done at the expense of honest discussion and evaluation of a poo. This demonizing of dog turds for being popular or for having dedicated fans has become a rather unfunny joke, with some of these trolls willfully deluding themselves into believing that the only people who still like dog poo are all somehow mentally deranged.

It's a shame that these trolls have a toehold on /tg/, likely because we are one of the few sites that allow enough freedom for people to shitpost in the manner that they do, but it's really gotten out of hand, with people actually hesitating to discuss the poo because they know they're going to be triggering a small group of very angry, very dedicated trolls that can't tolerate people enjoying a game they aren't fond of.

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>>51638690
And thus a copypasta is born.

>>51638266

eegh, talk about moving the goalpost

>>51638579
Are you telling me that you honestly, 100%, cannot think of ten things that aren't back-handed compliments?

Honestly?
If so, what else can be said about you other than that you are a troll?

>>51638589
But we're not talking about dog poo, you troll.

>>51638766
You're talking about 3.x so you yeah, you're talking about dog poo.

>>51638737
In response to someone moving the goal post?
It's perfectly appropriate.

Watch how "It's a bad system" switched to "It's a bad core system." The question simply followed because the essential point remained unchanged.

>>51638788
>the troll gives up pretending

Thank you for helping prove a point.

>>51638766
But we are talking about picking completely arbitrary criteria that don't make sense to anyone except you

>>51638789

Nope. The point remains unchanged. 3.PF is a bad system. This affects both the core system and the available content. If you'll note, even the post pointing out positives of the content acknowledges the implicit problem, that a significant amount of the content built upon the flawed core is garbage.

Also, it's interesting that you're not actually able to provide ten strengths of the core system yourself, despite it being requested. Surely you're able to do it, if you're going to discredit someone elses argument due to their inability to do so.

>>51638766
>Are you telling me that you honestly, 100%, cannot think of ten things that aren't back-handed compliments?

I'm not him, and no, not really. Nothing that's unique to Pathfinder and not done better by other D&D derivatives.

In my view, literally the only thing Pathfinder has going for it is the fact that Paizo squats out reams of crap for it. Otherwise, play an OSR game, play Trailblazer (if you just have to be running 3.5), play Fantasycraft, play 5th edition, hell just run 3.5, but don't fucking accept that garbage as a finished product.

Pathfinder is popular because it's popular (there's a feedback loop that has sustained it thus far, and is now failing), it's popular because 3.5 was popular, and 3.5 was popular because it entered the market at the right time and had a permissive enough license that fucking everyone and their dog made stuff for it. It is however, not popular due to its merits as a system.

>>51638792
Name ten good things about your shit system, faggot

I'm surprised this yo-yo hasn't rolled out the old DeviantArt chestnut of "Let's see you make something better."

>>51638837
I'm sorry, but communication has broken down. I'm quoting your post even though I will not bother to read it solely because I want you to understand that no, I do not care to read more of your bizarre attempts to justify your silly trolling, when it's clear that's all you're here to do. I know you don't understand the points I presented to you, or that you will pretend that you don't, but I'm not here to indulge you any further.

You want people to play your game and take you seriously? I'm sorry, but if you're just a troll, I'm done with you.

I leave this post open to all your upset rants and attempts to ridicule me, in hopes of salvaging your ego as well as a hope to get a response out of me.

>>51638918
The OP has left the building because he knows he's lost and the cognitive dissonance is too much for his lizard brain

>>51638918

So you can't provide ten strengths about the core system of the game you claim to champion? Despite demanding it from others, and declaring it as a basis for dismissing their argument?

>>51638789
That's not what he said at all. Everything good about 3.PF is immaterial because it's built upon a broken foundation. Pathfinder's greatest virtue is the staggering amount of content available for it, but that content is hobbled by it's reliance on the poorly balanced conflict resolution mechanics, and is better used by hacking it into other systems. That I regularly rob the PFSRD for content for my other games is not something I'd consider a virtue of Pathfinder.

I'm also waiting to hear those ten strengths.

>>51637716
Aren't you trying to create bait, yourself?

>>51637896
How is he shitposting when he actually put forward completely valid points?
What the actual fuck?

>>51637716
I apologize beforehand for this thread, but what is wrong with these Anti-X trolls?

They're like rabid dogs. You can't even mention the system without them flocking to it to try and shut down any discussion about it. Rather than discussing the actual game, all they want to do is drop their copypasta lists of exaggerated flaws they've gathered over the years, to pretend that the system has no merits and the only thing worth talking about are its problems.

It's not a healthy mindset, because it's clearly board politics at play, and that's something we should not be encouraging. I understand that X is an old system, but trying to scare everyone away from talking about it with rampant shitposting, no matter how much you personally think it's justified or how cleverly you think you are hiding your intentions, is neither fair to the people who want to discuss the game nor productive towards any end goal.

There's this idea that if people can scare people away from X that they will fall in love with other systems, and while it's nice to encourage people to try other games, it shouldn't be done at the expense of honest discussion and evaluation of a system. This demonizing of X for being popular or for having dedicated fans has become a rather unfunny joke, with some of these trolls willfully deluding themselves into believing that the only people who still play that system are all somehow mentally deranged.

It's a shame that these trolls have a toehold on /tg/, likely because we are one of the few sites that allow enough freedom for people to shitpost in the manner that they do, but it's really gotten out of hand, with people actually hesitating to discuss the game because they know they're going to be triggering a small group of very angry, very dedicated trolls that can't tolerate people enjoying a game they aren't fond of.

>>51639404

Because when you're so invested in something you see all criticism of it as a form of personal attack, it becomes impossible for critique to be anything other than shitposting. This isn't exclusive to 3.PF. It's just more common.

>>51639742
Then you should take your head out of your arse, step back and try to look at it objectively. Otherwise, you just sound like another shitposter with no idea of what you're blathering about and the point you're trying to make becomes irrelevant.

>>51637716
>White knighting twenty year old gaming systems
>Can't even stay in his own general thread that never suffers from people barging in and saying it's a bad system

>>51637918
>Thief have nothing to contribute to the party as a whole.

Sneak Attack gives the Rogue in a party a very solid role that even Clerics can have difficulties using. Just get some flasks of Acid or Alchemist Fire, Two-Weapon Fighting and use the many, many ways to deny Dex to AC. Boom. You're doing a steady stream of damage and you just need grave and golem strike wands to keep you solid during encounters with those types of enemies.

3.5 is a decent game to play. Better than any other DnD edition to be honest.

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>>51639978

Except HP damage is irrelevant in D&D 3.PF

>>51640017
>doesn't know what "irrelevant
means

That's like a second grade vocabulary word. You have no excuse for misusing it.

>>51640017
It's not irrelevant whenever you could just straight up one shot a motherfucker with damn near guaranteed accuracy.

Rogue are the sole martial class that stays competitive with the the caster characters. Due to their ability to disarm traps, stealth capabilities and high levels of damage. Sometimes you just need to do HP damage to a motherfucker.

>>51640103
>Rogue are the sole martial class that stays competitive with the the caster characters.
Are you making things up again, anon?

>>51640106
Any fucker could make an ubercharger that one shots things with a barbarian. However, those tend to be useless outside of combat, while a rogue can use their skills like UMB and Hide and Move Silently to contribute to the party.

>>51637716
3.PF is fine (not great IMO, but enjoyable) if you have a competent GM.
Most GMs at least kind of suck though, so most 3.PF games suck. And because the nature of how spell effects are expressed and delineated, they suffer much less for a GM's incompetence than attack-based or skill-based abilities. There are ultimately less ways a spellcaster can fail over the course of a campaign's execution.
If those crappy GMs tried more games, they'd probably have a much broader understanding of how and when to use certain rules or mechanics, and the quality of the average 3.5/PF campaigns would improve.

The single biggest problem most GMs have with d20-based systems: calling for too many skill checks. That's gambling against the character's competency, especially if it's an important or challenging check, and that can often be be bypassed by a spell that has an inconsequential cost. Too many checks will effectively erode the skillful expert's competency floor.
In fact, this is part of why 4e went to static defenses instead of saving throws: if you've got a good static value, you've got a good static value. Stuff like that ultimately 'feels' like your character is more assured in their positive qualities.

TL;DR: Bad GMs assume characters have no competency floor, and that's where a hefty chunk of caster primacy comes from.

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im still not seeing 10 reasons pathfinder isnt shit, OP.

>>51638529
You do it, then. Name 10 good things. Educate us.

what a stupid thread

>>51638792
All it proves is they're being a dick. Doesn't prove jack about the merits of the system.

Needing 10 reasons is arbitrary, but if you want to defend it you should probably offer a defense instead of just *implying* that their attacks are invalid.

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>>51638690
The best thing to come out of this thread.

>>51637896
I don't rollplay enough or know enough to actually participate in the discussion, but that guy's post is full of valid arguments.

If anything your post is just confirming his points about the fanbase being insecure to an outsider like me.

>>51639978
>3.5 is a decent game to play. Better than any other DnD edition to be honest.
>alternative facts

>>51640133
and do no damage at all to anything immune to sneak attacks, which is most things at higher levels

>>51637716
Because it caused the entire game to be dumbed down to the point where any deviance from the autism gets you nothing but scorn. All imagination and independent thought was banned, and exploiting loopholes in the rules was encouraged.

Go onto a site and make a base class with five levels, and watch people have massive fucking meltdowns because it doesn't have 20 levels in it.

Or say that you ruled that no matter how many feats someone has, that they cannot avoid a room-wide crushing-ceiling trap when they are unable to leave the room and watch the meltdown.

Or say that you punished a player for taking flaws or traits that had literally no consequences for his character, mechanically or narratively, and watch the rule lawyers crawl out of the woodwork and scream about how what they did was legal.

Or mention a certain CR2 quasit witch who is invisible and has a returning dagger and watch the price of salt drop like the quality of the entire internet as people with no ability to think straight shit their pants over how it's literally impossible without having to think.

Or tell people that you reward players for roleplaying and watch the rawscum throw feces at you while claiming that you are punishing people because they're in "a shell".

d20 dumbed down and destroyed the game to where its effects are being felt a decade after the source went out of print. Because of its extensive damage, it has to be shouted down and discouraged. This isn't a case of "nurutu is bad" upset, this is a case of "This caused measurable damage to the quality of traditional gaming".

>>51642963
I fail to see how "exploiting loopholes in the rules was encouraged" is a bad thing

It fosters critical thought and insight, and makes the optimization game all the more interesting

Don't get me wrong here, I am by no means saying that 3.PF is a good game, but you're trying to say that it's greatest strength is a weakness. Then complaining about people who play 3.PF the way it was meant to be played, as a character building exercise, as if they're doing something horribly wrong

>>51642855
That's actually easy to get around.

But then, so is getting UMD and the ability to deal with traps on basically anyone (yes, even uber chargers if they give up some damage).

Anyone knows why we got D&D4E and 5E ever since PF came out, but we haven't gotten a PF2?

>>51643037
Because 4e was built around the idea of not being 3.5, and PF was built around being 3.5

Then Mike Mearls came in and tried to turn 4e into 3.5, failed, and made 5e instead, so he too could make 3.5. But PF has been 3.5 all along, so they saw no reason to change

>>51643013
So if I join your game it would be okay to make a billion quarterstaffs as a free action and carry about a trillion candles without weight encumbrance? Or to play a frenzied berserker, wind up with negative HP in the triple digits, and have someone stick my head underwater to bring me up to zero hitpoints? Or to utterly annihilate the game balance by using a few low-level spells to wind up with infinite amounts of money from selling daggers? Or to cause three people to take infinite damage by using a psionic power that causes damage to also be inflicted on another person, one of which is the aforementioned frenzied berserker who is now at negative infinity hitpoints and still alive long enough for me to drown him back to zero hitpoints?

>>51643099
Well, no

I'm not stupid enough to RUN games of 3.5 or PF. I just build characters for it with friends

Because brainstorming up stupid shit the rules let you do in 3.5 is much, much more fun than playing the game ever can be

>>51643099
Don't forget selling a party member a 10gp diamond for thousands of gp and using it to raise the dead.

>>51637716
They aren't wrong, you're just unwilling to actually consider that they might be right and instead try to turn everything into a dumbass popularity contest as if that changes a game's mechanics.

>>51637716
After the debacle that was 4e this is WotC's last chance with D&D. Hasbro does not fuck around about properties that are no delivering on the money.

They want to murder 3.5/PF support because 5e dies in another year or so if it's not meeting Hasbro targets.

>>51643549
5e is safe. The game has a fraction of a budget 4e had, but in exchange, the expected numbers are also smaller; instead, it is a vehicle for complimentary materials, such as games, movies, comics, toys, etc. Risk minimized, gains maximized.

Because it's a shit game

It's based on almost 20 years old core that wasn't even good when new
Then it overcomplicated it with bloating pointless shit over it through the years
Then it turned it up to eleven
It's got shit art seriously fuck you wayne reynolds
It's got shitheaded devs another fuck you to another reynolds
It's got shittiest community
It appeals mostly to fucktards whose main interest is worship of pointless numbercrunching and competing in knowledge of shitty, contrived jargon, because it's got very little more to offer.

Seriously, I don't even like D&D at all, but I'm so happy that 5E, which at least is decent system for this niche (even if it's not my niche) is around and slowly wrecks this steaming pile of toxic, cancerous crap.

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>>51643513
Funny, that's how 4e alienated an entire fanbase.

>>51642963
And this makes 5e good? If anything 4e and 5e is even more guilty of these supposed crimes than PF could ever be.

>>51643099
You can't do any of this shit in PF

>>51643037
>>51643059
Because unlike WotC they're slowly rebuilding the system from the inside to make Tier 3 the sweet spot to play with by making tier 3 classes more common and more fun to play than tier 1 and tier 4. Which is how it should have been done in the first place, but WotC couldn't handle the time it takes to do such a thing.

>>51637716
t. Paizo employee

>>51643674
I think it was aimed not at PF, but 3.5

>4e with 10% the numbers of the other editions.

lol @ the fucking state of 4e and balancefags in general.

>>51643645
Not even remotely comparable.

>>51643708
Mate, as a fan of 4e, I'm just happy people are playing it at all

>>51643614
Can you prove OP's point any harder?
Or are you OP falseflagging?

>>51643600
In that case, I have no fucking idea why 5e fans on /tg/ are so fucking terrible. They are though. The fucking worst.

I came over to /tg/ tonight to specifically because I was wondering about the state of 5e and knew there would be a thread or two. And there were. I'm now committed to writing a new game system for the project I'm working on because I don't think PF is a good fit and 5e apparently causes some form of cancer that makes assholes grow tumors which are even bigger assholes and then they all shitpost about 5e everywhere.

>>51643738
Well, he could try saying things that aren't actually true.

>>51643765
Shitposting on the level that goes on related to 5e doesn't even register with me.

Also, I find picking a system for your game based on fans shitposting on a site dedicated to Manchurian cavepaintings weird, but homebrewing is good, so good luck!

>>51643804
>opinions

I don't think you understand what "actually true" actually means.

>>51643833
>hurr relativism

>>51643833
And I think I forgot to put a :^) after that to indicate that I'm being about 50% serious at best.

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>>51638120
>m-most p-people don't hate bronies, and we're not perverts at all!

>>51638120
>He hates the system enough to hijack the OP, post his shitty waifu, and give The thread the current rep it has.

Everyone already knows this. The current rep of the thread is "most popular general, targeted by trolls."

Anyone who says otherwise? Congrats, you've encountered a troll trying to push their false meme.

>>51643118
>I'm not stupid enough to RUN games of 3.5 or PF. I just build characters for it with friends
This is literally the only thing that 3rd edition is good for.

>>51637886
Why do your updated statistics list more players than were surveyed?

65k - 69k. Did you make those numbers up?

>>51646246
>>51637886
>>51637716

It's also worth mentioning that Roll20 statistics are likely heavily skewed to games that benefit from a virtual tabletop/battle mat. I'm in a couple of D&D 4e games that use Roll20, but I'm in significantly more games in different systems which just use IRC, since the map and added features aren't worth the extra bother when a simple text IC and OOC channel will do just fine.

>>51646246
People can play more than one system.

>>51643708
Except playing 4E on Roll20 is a huge pain in the ass because of the lack of tools to help with it. Most people who play 4E online use Maptool.

>>51646376
The fuck tools do you need?

Look at the sheet and roll your damn dice with the modifier. Jesus fucking christ, you're here bitching while the WoD/CofD have been nothing but shafted since inception.

ITT: "I s-s-s-swear, guys, our fanbase is not composed of degenerate weeb furfags, it's just the trolls, guys! 80% of our general is trolls!"

>>51637716
>You can't even mention the system without them flocking to it to try and shut down any discussion about it.
This is not, and never has been, anything new.

Early in /tg/'s history, warmachine threads would get shat on. When 4e was around the corner, and pathfinder was coming out, the shitflinging really kicked into overdrive.

I apologize beforehand for this thread, but what is wrong with these Anti-skub trolls?

They're like rabid dogs. You can't even mention the stuff without them flocking to it to try and shut down any discussion about it. Rather than discussing the actual skub, all they want to do is drop their copypasta lists of exaggerated flaws they've gathered over the years, to pretend that the skub has no merits and the only thing worth talking about are its problems.

It's not a healthy mindset, because it's clearly board politics at play, and that's something we should not be encouraging. I understand that skub is an old stuff, but trying to scare everyone away from talking about it with rampant shitposting, no matter how much you personally think it's justified or how cleverly you think you are hiding your intentions, is neither fair to the people who want to discuss the game nor productive towards any end goal.

There's this idea that if people can scare people away from skub that they will fall in love with other things, and while it's nice to encourage people to try other stuff, it shouldn't be done at the expense of honest discussion and evaluation of a thing. This demonizing of skub for being popular or for having dedicated fans has become a rather unfunny joke, with some of these trolls willfully deluding themselves into believing that the only people who still play that stuff are all somehow mentally deranged.

It's a shame that these trolls have a toehold on /tg/, likely because we are one of the few sites that allow enough freedom for people to shitpost in the manner that they do, but it's really gotten out of hand, with people actually hesitating to discuss the stuff because they know they're going to be triggering a small group of very angry, very dedicated trolls that can't tolerate people enjoying a game they aren't fond of.

>>51646476
Yeah, this is pretty baffling to me. Most of my experience with Pathfinder has been with the sorts that are keen as hell to have Kitsune in it.

>>51646452
Retard detected.

>Posting the old chart
>Using the appeal to popularity fallacy in the first place
Typical

>>51646851
If that guy isn't a troll(he is) he genuinely doesn't think logic means anything.

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>>51637716
>being this delusional
Maybe it's not actually trolls conspiring against a game you like and instead the game suffers from legitimate, significant flaws.

>>51646866
It's easy to detect trolls like yourself.
It's sad that you actually are convinced you are cleverly hiding, when all of your arguments are just hoping people ignore the majority of the system to instead worry about the little issues that most people don't really care that much about.

It's the endless cycle of you complaining, complaining, complaining, and then wondering why people continue to play the game you hate, when the answer is that your complaints are hardly as moving as you wish they were.

>>51647048
Your bait is so obvious, it's barely even worth commenting on. Like seriously Richard Petty, you've been spouting this shit since last year, you're the only one on /tg/ who honestly believes that the game is flawless or that the flaws aren't worth talking about.

Just give it a rest already.

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>>51647048
>little issues
>fundamental flaws in game balance and design
You can enjoy the game, no one is stopping you, but don't pretend that there aren't a lot of serious issues.

>>51647094
I think we're in one of those strange situations where it's not entirely clear who's trolling who.

>>51647094
>oh shit, i've been called out for being a troll!
>better try to distract everyone!

Nice try. You're still never going to stop people from playing the game you hate, regardless of how much you complain. Isn't it about time you gave up yourself?

>>51647131
If I hated the game why would I have playtested it?

>>51647120
Do you want to discuss the significant issues in every other game, or only the ones that are popular enough to get a reaction out of?

No one's pretending there aren't issues. But you really need to stop pretending anyone is forced to care about them as much as you do, or that your opinion matters to most players or is anything other than subjective.

No matter how much you complain, people will not forget the good aspects of the system, or will somehow become unable to ignore or fix what you consider issues.

>>51647159
Because you are a bitter cunt? That should be obvious.

>>51647131
>>51647170
>>51647181
How about instead of making threads trying to excuse issues that everyone else has already acknowledged, how about you just take the conversation to /pfg/ or something? I mean, everyone who hates 3.PF is a troll anyways right, so maybe you'll find some company amongst other autists who do nothing but discuss 3.PF all day.

>>51647189
He's also the whiteroom fag so he gets the entire thread jumping down his throat the second he opens his mouth. There's a reason he won't post in /pfg/.

>>51647203
>Richard Petty is so caustic that even 3.PF fanboys hate him
Really makes you think

>>51647181
Why would I think the system is constantly getting better if I hated it?

>>51647254
It's not that surprising, he makes it harder to have conversations about the game.

>>51647254
>implying /pfg/ is PF fanboys

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>>51647170
>Bad game design is subjective
wew

>stop pretending anyone is forced to care about them as much as you do, or that your opinion matters to most players
I just don't want to make the same mistake as other people new to this to make the same mistake as me and waste money on a terrible game. Gotta make an effort to enlighten the newfags!

>>51647345
I generally assume the worst by default, especially when it comes to people who talk about 3.PF exclusively.

Please understand.

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>>51638690

>>51637716
>I apologize beforehand for this thread, but what is wrong with these Anti-3.5/PF trolls?

Impotent rage at people continuously refusing to stop liking what they don't like.

>>51638266
said the guy who doesn't want to be taken seriously.

>>51647189
No, there's people who hate 3.PF who aren't trolls.

Don't try and confuse things here. Hating 3.PF doesn't make you a troll. Trolling about 3.PF makes you a troll.

And, as much as you want to pretend that spamming "valid complaints" whenever someone mentions the system isn't trolling, it's really hard to say that when the end result isn't actual discussion of the system, but a senseless back-and-forth baiting of people arguing solely about what largely amounts to solved issues.

It's just edition wars, and instead of simply saying "people will play the games they like" or discussing the topic in a fair and balanced view, it's one-sided shitposting to try and discourage the topic.

It's the worst kind of board politics.

>>51647203

>whiteroom fag

Huh?

>>51647701
A dickbag who'd go full REEEE with
>WHITEROOM THEORYCRAFTING IT DOESN'T ACTUALLY MATTER IN REAL PLAY SO STOP TALKING ABOUT IT
the instant anyone started talking about mechanics in PF. He got assblasted enough times to start doing this instead. It's not too hard to notice his posting pattern when you've seen him as long as I have.

>>51647665
How exactly do you expect to have a meaningful discussion when you're going on about every other person ITT being a troll and how their complaints aren't valid or worth discussing?

If the flaws weren't valid or worth discussing, the community wouldn't have invented shit like tiers to help people avoid the bulk of the imbalance issues in the first place.

Seriously, you'll find no friends on /tg/ so you might as well take your troll threads over to /pfg/.

>>51647784

But doesn't that exclude all mechanical discussions altogether? Sure, context is important, but when you're talking about things it's impossible to consider all possible contexts, so it's better to even things out and assume a neutral, level playing field. It's a cornerstone of mechanical design.

>>51647701
Basically, he's THAT GUY who shows up in every 3.PF thread to go
>"CASTER SUPREMACY IS A MYTH, I CAN STILL BEAT THEM WITH MUH FIGHTER!"
and then when people point out how the wizard has spells that render his entire build worthless, he goes
>"WHITEROOM THEORY CRAFTING DOESN'T ACTUALLY SHOW UP I'M HERE TO ACTUALLY DISCUSS THE GAME!"
while simultaneously trying to stack the deck in his favor without realizing that a) the fact that he needs so many things to go right just take out one enemy proves how powerful they are by default and b) if the fighter has access to all this swag due to his level or WBL, then the wizard will benefit from the same resources, except now it's even more difficult for the fighter to get a leg up on them.

>>51647665
>Hey /tg/, I'm new to PF, what class should I play?
>Try a Warpriest, it's easy to learn and play and powerful enough to not screw you over later

And I'm the troll here?

>>51647843
Yeah, that was the entire point of what he did. If he's not a troll, which I sincerely doubt as he's jumped into threads where the OP was asking for help to shit them up and I EXPLICITLY CALLED HIM ON THIS, he's a major retard who believes that game mechanics don't matter and posted a ton of stuff along those exact lines.

>>51647843
How did you time travel?

Still waiting on those ten reasons why 3.pf mechanics are good OP.

>>51648088
Core mechanics, not mechanics. If it was just mechanics it'd be no issue to find stuff that isn't total shit.

For the record, D&D 3.p is my least favorite edition. I don't feel hatred for any system.

>>51637716
I am proud of OP for making a sensible and we'll reasoned post approaching this topic.
I have seen lunacy that extends beyond trolling on both sides of this issue, but anons who insanely attack others for discussing something they don't like are in the wrong more than anons who defend their topic of choice insanely.

>>51637870
This post is almost as sensible, but this line:
>3.PF is a legitimately flawed game and dismissing all criticism of it as trolling just shows how insecure the fanbase around it is.
Implied OP was dismissing all criticism as trolling.
Implying is not stating, but that sort of implication is part of the problem.
OP was not dismissing *all* criticism as trolling, just the ones who "pretend that the system has no merits and the only thing worth talking about are its problems."

Anons who think it's a bad game with some good qualites are generally okay.
Anons who think it's a good game with some bad qualites are generally okay.
The insane ranters who insist it is all or nothing need a time-out and a binky.

>>51648131
>Implied OP was dismissing all criticism as trolling.
That is literally, as in literal literal, not figurative literal, what OP does. If you talk about any of its flaws he'll go "herp it doesn't matter because RELATIVISM/RULE ZERO" or pretend that the flaw doesn't exist every single time. No exceptions.

>>51648131
>Implied OP was dismissing all criticism as trolling.

That's exactly what he fucking did though. Read the thread. If it's not OP, it's some other member of the defense force, which just proves the point even more.

>>51647844
Don't be ridiculous, anyone saying shit like that in this day and age has to be a troll. It's impossible for anyone who actually likes 3.5 or PF to be unaware of caster supremacy. It's just a matter of bypassing it through either knowledgeable players intentionally taking poor options for the extremely powerful classes, or just using the tier system to limit choices

>>51647786
>How exactly do you expect to have a meaningful discussion when you're going on about every other person ITT being a troll and how their complaints aren't valid or worth discussing?

Largely because they are trolls, with complaints not worth discussing?
What's the surprise? These guys don't care about talking about the system, or letting people talk about the system, they're just here to troll and to create a weird mythos about how /tg/ hates 3.PF so that in their hopes people will eventually stop discussing it. Board politics of the kind you'd find in /pol/.

They've gotten so bad, that they're at the point where they are trying to construct a single person as their sole enemy, like they can't imagine that more than one person can see past their rather transparent trolling, when you can already see from many of the other replies in this thread that most people are quite aware.

Long story short is that these trolls seem to think that they're quite clever, and it seems like people need to remind them that they're very obviously trolls or they end up getting rather uppity.

>>51648170
>OP is everyone I've ever disagreed with

What is wrong with you.

>>51648273
>Largely because they are trolls, with complaints not worth discussing?
So you admit that you're not here to have a discussion in the first place?

Also, I'm curious to hear those ten reasons why the 3.PF core mechanics are good btw.

>>51638918
Go eat dogshit, Richard Petty.

>>51648273
I believe you're wrong

It's obvious that people will talk about what they feel strongly about, whether they like it or hate it. If their strategy is to somehow make /tg/ hate 3.PF, then the result will be MORE threads and discussion about 3.PF, not less

>>51648170
>That is literally, as in literal literal, not figurative literal, what OP does.
Not in the OP.
Saying "These guys who think my favorite game is shit are assholes." is not saying "Guys who think my favorite game is ships are assholes."

>>51648203
>it's some other member of the defense force
Probably, haven't read the thread yet.
But, "He's a loon!" is no defense for acting like a hyperbolic loon yourself.

>>51648273
>Largely because they are trolls, with complaints not worth discussing?

This is exactly why we can't have a discussion about the system. Not because of trolls, but people like you plugging your ears and screeching like a retard whenever someone says something you don't agree with. To have a serious discussion, you have to be open to the possibility that you may, in fact, be wrong.

>>51648382
It's not hyperbole. You'd know exactly what he was talking about if you knew who OP was.

As someone who is on the '3.PF has flaws side', can we please drop the bullshit of trying to assert identity on an anonymous board?

It doesn't help. It really doesn't help. I don't care how well crafted your theories are or how confident you are in your ability to recognise someone from their posting style. It adds nothing to the discussion and just creates tangents which lead nowhere.

If you're that familiar with someone, you should be able to easily refute or ignore their posts and focus on the actual discussion, instead of responding to them in ways that are guaranteed to get stuck in the same old loops.

>>51648520
No.

>>51648307
Everyone? No.

But it is Richard Petty. This is exactly what he does, in the same way, using the same words, for the last fucking year.

>>51648520
I might be convinced to be a little less Anonymous.

>>51648382
If you were aware of Richard Petty's bullshit then you wouldn't be saying what you're saying. He's basically the reason why /tg/ will never have a decent 3.PF thread outside of /pfg/ (and even that place is a mess) simply because he's unable to admit to the system's faults and is unwilling to see things from someone else's perspective.
>>51648520
If more people are aware of a troll's presence then they're more likely not to engage in their bullshit and report them on sight.

Like how Eternally Triggered Bitch-Anon was being forced a few months back until it eventually got phased out when all 3-4 got banned all at once? It's the same principle.

>>51648520
Go eat shit. When you use the same fucking words in the same fucking way for a goddamn year, we can work out you are, in fact, the same person.

And it doesn't matter how many times we refute the screaming retard, because he just starts crying about how because its popular the flaws don't matter or screeching about white rooms.

Go fuck yourself.

>>51648431
>if you knew who OP was
I don't.
Which is why I base merit on actual words posted, rather than an emotional response to the perceived identity of a poster.
Makes posting more pure.

>>51648625

This. This is the whole reason I post on 4chan at all.

Anonymous communication is at its best when you take people at their world. The artificial identity bollocks ruins one of the key strengths of this whole site.

>>51648395
This thread isn't about discussing the system. That should be obvious. It's about discussing the trolls.

If you want a list of complaints of complaints about the system, anyone with access to google can produce a library. That doesn't really change anything, other than saying that the trolls have a fair amount of ammunition. At the end of the day, they can justify their own hatred as much as they want to themselves, but they can't really justify the fervent trolling they are so committed to.

There's nothing to justify the kind of board politics they get up to, regardless of how bad they imagine the system they hate to be.

>To have a serious discussion, you have to be open to the possibility that you may, in fact, be wrong.

It's important to recognize that in this particular regard, we aren't even talking about pro-3.PF or anti-PF, but anti-troll and troll. The trolls in this regard will argue that they are not trolls, and that their views are not only just as valid as any other, but more valid than any other. While it's fine to have your opinion, just like everyone else is entitled to one, it's something else entirely to be trying to shut down any discussion about a system.

We're not even talking about some terrible game that no one's ever played before. We're talking about a system that was the posterchild for the industry for the better part of a decade. Now, I can recognize that people may have been upset about this, and are still upset about this, but not to the point where they are trying to discourage anyone from even admitting they like the game.

I GM 5e and 3.PF regularly, about the same amount of time per week and I enjoy both. Although mechanically, 5e is a better system in just about every way, it's only pitfall being a pathetic amount of content available and judging from WOTC's approach, will probably never even have 1/50th of the 3.x content available for it. So for that reason alone, I'll probably be playing 3.PF for the rest of my life.

That being said, "builds" are a fucking tumor, I've considered banning people from my games over using that word. It's worse than nails on a chalkboard. I wish buildfags would neck themselves.

>>51648662
You might want to consider playing a game that doesn't encourage that mentality then...

>>51648662
>"builds" are a fucking tumor
Well gee, maybe you shouldn't play a game where character building is a core concept of the game and where this was a deliberate break from what every edition of D&D before it did.

>>51648520
>It doesn't help. It really doesn't help.
Well said, anon.

If y'all think this Petty Dick fellow is posting nonsense, calmly refute the nonsense.
When an anon tries to draw you into responding poorly, don't take the bait.

3.p is flawed but an anon whose opinion is that it is a good game is not insane. An anon whose opinion is that it is a not flawed is insane.

>>51648696
I'd honestly love to, but the only game that comes to mind that has such a vast library of content is 2e and no one in my group is willing to switch to it despite my best efforts.

>>51648642
>>51648625
If you have one guy coming into one type of thread to post the same bullshit in the same way with no attempt of variance to either his writing style or his arguments, you're going to get found out sooner or later as the same fuckwith.

We're on an anonymous imageboard but when you go out of your way to foster an identity through your posting style, it becomes harder not to recognize that all the bullshit is coming from the same fucking person.

>>51648755

But engaging with that pseudo-identity just fuels it and gives it more relevance.

>>51648735
>If y'all think this Petty Dick fellow is posting nonsense, calmly refute the nonsense.
We do. He just ignores it or refuses to acknowledge your response.

>>51648780
Not really. He got away with trolling /pfg/ for awhile until people put two and two together and started calling him specifically out.

>>51648792
Exactly. Read this thread. Stating actual flaws, and even noting you somewhat like the game gets you called a hyperbolic retard lying troll.

Fuck Petty. READ. THIS. FUCKING. THREAD.

>>51648780
Yet at the same time, once that identity becomes an issue and everyone recognizes it, they can take steps to deal with it by banning the person responsible.

It happened with Virt, it happened with the ETBA meme, and eventually it'll happen to Richard Petty once people get to the point where they're trying to have a conversation and he keeps mucking it all up.

>>51648755
You seem to be really trying hard to establish this "there's only one guy who could possibly disagree with me" business. I'm almost convinced you genuinely believe it.

>>51648829
>it happened with the ETBA meme
You know that was Petty, right? Whenever the faggot spamming that got banned, Petty vanished for a while.

Part of how we helped to ID him, he loves to focus on, and repeat words and phrases.

>>51648837
I'm not saying that there's one dude who enjoys playing 3.PF in spite of its flaws, I'm saying that there's one dude who is consistently this caustic and unwilling to acknowledge the system's faults, even to the point where the discussion is derailed by his presence.

>>51648825
I am reading the thread. You seem to be confusing past anons and getting caught up in trying to mix them with multiple anons in this thread, to the point where you've been arguing against things that weren't said by anyone.

I think you have issues.

>>51648847
I'm aware, but you notice that he's not forcing that particular meme anymore now that it'd get him banned on sight.

>>51648894
Now we get "mechanics don't matter bro" and appeals to popularity.

>>51648755
I get that.
It doesn't matter.
I twice agreed with a notorious tripfag.
Why?
Because he happened to actually say something true.
Address post content.

This flag waving needs to stop.
That's what the problem is.
Flag waving skub wars.

Point out ridiculous posts and then ignore them and the ones supporting them.
Raging and rallying against them just makes it worse.

>>51648847
>he loves to focus on, and repeat words and phrases.

Like repeating Richard Petty?
Anon.
You've become what you hate.

>>51648880
Classic deflection.

>>51648918
?

>>51648880
Eat shit. Those arguments are 100% in this very fucking thread right now.

>>51648894
Fair 'nough, that was more info for other people not aware.

>>51648942
Did you miss the part where I said you had issues? That wasn't an invitation for you to reveal them.
You seem genuinely upset, because you've constructed a phantom character in your head, to the point where anyone who like 3.pf is a single person.

Am I this Richard Petty too? Would it ease your mind if I told you I don't like 3.pf?

>>51649001
Why do you call him "Richard Petty?" What does a NASCAR driver have to do with him?

>>51649071
In one particular thread, he would go on about any fault that was brought up against 3.PF was "petty this" and "petty that" and then some guy called him "Richard Petty" because he was petty and a dick.

Then the nickname stuck apparently.

>>51649097
>because he was petty
I'm loving the irony here.

I don't understand this thread. I apologize beforehand for any bruised feelings.

Pathfinder is a bad game. It has a bad setting, it has badly designed rules, it is as close to being objectively bad as it is possible in this subjective world. This isn't surprising for anyone, and indeed it is a conclusion most serious players had reached years ago.

Why are you raging against the evidence? Why is there so many people here who behave like 3.5/PF wasn't bad games? Is it trolling? Do you genuinely do not know any better? Do you believe that popularity means a good game, somehow? Can't you see the most basic fallacy?

I want to understand you, but your mindset seems so alien, so deformed, so eldritch, I simply can't.

>>51649097
Constantly. Like 3-4 fucking times a post. Then it was the bitch anon thing, then it was the popularity thing which he still does, and now he seems to have moved on to trying to claim anyone that dares to shitalk his waifu or call him out has 'issues' and is just 'inventing a person'.

Given there are 3-4 people all IDing his ass as Richard Petty, it should tell you something.

>>51649046
It's not even people who like 3.PF because even /pfg/ hates his guts and will call him out on his bullshit if he tries spouting some more whiteroom theorycrafting bullshit.

Nobody ITT gives a fuck if you play 3.PF, it's only when you claim that it doesn't have flaws or you play it while bitching about said flaws, is when you'll get people showing up out of the wood work to explain how you're either wrong or an idiot or both.

Play what you want, but don't pretend the elephant in the room ain't there and don't get mad when people point it out to you.

>>51649112
Keep in mind, he would say "petty" after every few words and his responses basically boiled down to "nuh uh" whenever someone raised a point.

>>51649123

see

>>51639742

>>51640017
This is a good graphic. Thank you, anon.

>>51649146
>Nobody ITT gives a fuck if you play 3.PF
That's not really true. A lot of people seem to care here.
Like this guy.
>>51643614

>It's only when you claim that it doesn't have flaws
I'm having a hard time finding anyone in this thread saying it doesn't have flaws. A lot of weird arguments, but no one saying "It doesn't have flaws."
All this Richard Petty business seems like you're confusing people together. There's a lot of people on /tg/, and not everyone who like 3.pf is the same person. And, this Petty person is starting to sound like a strawman that you pull out to argue against. Do you do this often?

>>51649123
Because it's Politics anon. Board Politics. Doesn't matter if it's "just a game," on a board about Traditional Games, something like this matters.

It's the same reason why Hiro allowed to give us a meta thread, but the mods delete it. Quests, Generals, and 3.PF are our hot button topics.

>>51649395

Quests aren't a hot button topic. They're gone, it's good, and only a few diehards still bitch about it.

>>51649415
You Absolute Fuckwit.

>>51649123
Honestly, that's mostly just your opinions, and it seems like you actually have trouble seeing why people like the game.

>most serious players had reached years ago.
Do you have anything to back that statement up? Pathfinder seems to be still very popular. Is this a no-true-scotsman fallacy?

I don't like 3.pf, but I understand why some people do like it. There's some reasons listed in this thread.

>it is as close to being objectively bad as it is possible in this subjective world.

It's nowhere close. Alright, it's close, but at the same time, there's a lot worse games out there. A lot worse. And a lot of them. People liking 3.pf is hardly the most surprising thing you'll encounter.

>>51649395
3.PF shouldn't be a hot button topic though, no more than any other system. In fact, I genuinely think Exalted is a many times worse game, but I'd hate to see anyone try to run it off this board.

>>51649343
>That's not really true. A lot of people seem to care here.
One dude, who is giving his opinion on a game, is not "a lot of people seem to care." Besides, most of the flak he gives has more to do with the system and its fanboys rather than anyone ITT who actually enjoys playing it.
>I'm having a hard time finding anyone in this thread saying it doesn't have flaws.
I found a few of them for you.
>>51638529
>>51638918
>>51639978
>>51643013
>>51638120
>>51647048
>>51647131

>>51637716
>defending Pathfinder
>with roll20
You mean a cancerous site whose player-base is mostly comprised of human garbage plays shitty games? I would have never suspected that shit flows together.

>>51649530
Do you really want me to pick out more? I wanted to spare you reading posts like >>51637911 or >>51638061 and so on. And, even the people who don't explicitly say it seem to really, really care. Some people are particularly frothing at the mouth at the idea that someone could like this game.

>I found a few of them for you.
None of those said it doesn't have flaws though. Some of those are just repeating OP's "people like to complain about the system too much" grievance, and the others are directly addressing particularly flaws, not denying all flaws in general. In fact, you've selected some people who've gone ahead and said it was a bad game. I'm actually starting to worry about just how much of this argument has only been happening in the past, if it ever happened at all.

>>51637952
>because god forbid the idea that you and your system are legitimately unpopular.
It isn't tho

>>51649492
No, we won't run it off the board. It dominated the D&D market during the 4E era. It's got far more staying power than Dungeon World. We keep it around for the express purpose of hating it, because we can, and because we should, and because It's also fun to see half the people enraged by us.

>>51649695
It's the Justin Bieber/Twilight/50 shades/Transformers situation.

It's making dosh, there's a lot of people seeing it, but there's also a large amount of derision because they are low quality.

>>51649729
>We keep it around for the express purpose of hating it,

You're going to have a hard time ever stopping all the people who don't really care about the editions war torch you've been carrying all these years. Most people will always either ignore it or discuss it, regardless of what you trolls keep doing.

>>51649759
We leave /pfg/ well enough alone. It's outside the generals that we start flinging Shit.

>>51649759

Repeatedly referring to anyone who speaks negatively as 'you trolls' is just as dumb as the richard petty thing, for what it's worth. Although it's abstract it's just another case of assumed identity, making assumptions about people and their intentions and basing your response on that, rather than actually reading and thinking about their posts.

>>51649671
>"These two random trolls PROVES that people really care too much about the system."
>"It totally means that people aren't claiming that the system doesn't have flaws, even though >>51638529 >>51639978 >>51647048 exist right, RIGHT!?!"
Listen fella, it's pretty clear that you have some major tunnel vision ITT and that you're too close to this to look at things clearly. It happens man, but unfortunately, I've run out of patience for people like you so I'm just going to give you one last (You) and go on about my business.

Have a nice life I guess, maybe you'll learn how to accept criticism without thinking that everyone who disagrees with you has a mental disorder once you graduate and realize that nobody cares either way.

I think OP is a baby retard and was going to call him that, and some of you guys are like me and wanted to tell OP to fuck off, but fuck i really think there's some crazy fucking trolls here. These petty petty guys is really into the whole politics thing.

OP, you're still a baby retard though. Fuck meta threads

>>51649796
>Repeatedly referring to anyone who speaks negatively as 'you trolls' is just as dumb as the richard petty thing, for what it's worth.

Did you even read the post?
> We keep it around for the express purpose of hating it, because we can, and because we should, and because It's also fun to see half the people enraged by us.

Can you call that not a troll?

>>51649801
Those three still didn't say anything about the system not having any flaws. Unless you think calling it a "decent" system is the same thing.

But yeah, you really should take a break from the internet.

>>51640133
>Hide and Move Silently

They're using 2 skill points to do one thing that's basically invalidated the second the Wizard finds an Invisibility spell. What a useful contributing member of the party.

>UMB
No idea what UMB is, assuming you meant UMD, in which case the Rogue is useful by pretending they're a shittier Wizard.

>>51648662
>I'll probably be playing 3.PF for the rest of my life.
>"builds" are a fucking tumor, I've considered banning people from my games over using that word.

If you're deadset on playing 3.PF for the rest of your life, you're going to lose players extremely quickly if you ban anyone who uses the word build.

>>51649415
>Quests aren't a hot button topic. They're gone

No they're not. We just call them Generals now.

>>51649729
>It dominated the D&D market during the 4E era.
>PF

Here's your (You).

>>51651759

I never get this comparison.

Generals are threads for discussing certain games. That's all they are. They existed before they were called 'generals'. The only thing that has changed is a new piece of terminology to describe a thread that broadly discusses a game, rather than being about a specific topic the OP brings up.

/tg/ has always had threads like this, since its inception, and yet people only started bringing them up as a problem after quests were gotten rid of.

Quests were a plague on the board, basically making the first page unusable with stuff only interesting to a small portion of the userbase, but generals are just ordinary threads for discussing traditional games. If you argue for removing them, you may as well remove the entire board.

>>51651779

Except he's right. And I say this as someone who loved 4e.

WotC fucked up their marketing, while Paizo pulled off a near perfect marketing coup.

>>51651831

Except Generals are actual board related threads. They're probably the most board related threads, since they're generally dedicated to discussing some of the largest and most popular traditional games in existence. Your comparison doesn't make any sense.

>>51637716
>what is wrong with these Pro-3.5/PF trolls?
>They're like rabid dogs. You can't even mention the system without them flocking to it to try and shut down any discussion about it.
>Rather than discussing the actual game, all they want to do is drop their copypasta lists of exaggerated strengths they've gathered over the years, to pretend that the system has merits and the only thing worth talking about are its detractors.
fuck off pathfag

>>51651812
4e was outselling Pathfinder by quite a ridiculous margin, and only started falling behind a year after 4e stopped actually making material.

And pre-empting any "But 4e got canned hurr durr" nonsense, 4e only got canned because Hasbro was expecting it to make Magic The Gathering numbers, which no edition of D&D has ever done. The only reason 3.x didn't fall under that was because back then WotC was able to put Magic and D&D under one listing and present the combined profits.

With D&D, Hasbro made them start listing them separately, and even with 4e pulling in way more money than 3.x (by Wizard's own admission), it was still not meeting Hasbro's expectations, through no fault of the game itself.

>>51651892
Not pathfag, but see
>>51648131
>anons who insanely attack others for discussing something they don't like are in the wrong more than anons who defend their topic of choice insanely.
Otherwise, nice parallel of the crazies in the other side.

>>51651831
L5R General rarely has namefags or tripfags. And the ones we did have were either gimmicks that several anons used (I know for a fact there were multiple Shouting Matsus) or were shortermers, like GMs forming up games. The current one has ranged over the properties of magical substances to the tactical proclivities of the Matsu family.

>>51649729
>>51651812
Every edition of D&D has outsold previous editions. 4e was no exception.

4e's problem was that they built themselves up to do as much of their material in house as they could, and they simultaneously tried to have an incredibly ambitious 1st party publishing schedule. Monthly releases like that can fatigue your primary base, intimidate newer players, and leaves you competing with yourself for shelf space.
A larger retained staff plus those issues, and of course you're only seeing relatively marginal net profits after the honeymoon period.

There's nothing necessarily wrong with that so long as you know when to walk away if it stops working, but for a subsidiary of a big hungry multinational like Hasbro? That's gonna start to make your boss' bosses a little nervous even if they weren't expecting miracles.

>>51637716
It's very simple anon, this board is full of hipster, fedora tipping trolls. They couldn't roleplay their way out of paper bag. They are incapable of having any true imagination other then with crunching numbers to break a system. They are the swill drinking, no-bath taking, sewage of the gaming community. As such the only thing they can do is try to ruin other people's fun so that for a second they can feel superior. Until they look in a mirror and realize that no one will every actual like to be around them. They are trash.

Trash just sits around and stinks up a place. And as they are used to living in such filth, they don't see it, smell it or understand why it's disgusting and sickening. As such they repulse all around them. And they start the cycle with their complete inability to act like a functional human being. Complete wastes.

And to bring it back around, as complete wastes, the only way for them to feel better is to try to waste other people's time. To take their entertainment and try to piss on it so that it repulses them as much as the trash on this board. They hope to point out every flaw, ignore every benefit and bury anyone trying to have fun is layers of piss, shit and vitriol in an attempt to ruin another's good time. Again, to feel better about themselves.

There is your reason.

>>51655936
Or the game can just be shit...just a thought I guess.

I apologize beforehand for this thread, but what is wrong with these Anti-nWoD trolls?

They're like rabid dogs. You can't even mention the system without them flocking to it to try and shut down any discussion about it. Rather than discussing the actual game, all they want to do is drop their copypasta lists of exaggerated flaws they've gathered over the years, to pretend that the system has no merits and the only thing worth talking about are its problems.

It's not a healthy mindset, because it's clearly board politics at play, and that's something we should not be encouraging. I understand that nWoD is an old system, but trying to scare everyone away from talking about it with rampant shitposting, no matter how much you personally think it's justified or how cleverly you think you are hiding your intentions, is neither fair to the people who want to discuss the game nor productive towards any end goal.

There's this idea that if people can scare people away from nWoD that they will fall in love with other systems, and while it's nice to encourage people to try other games, it shouldn't be done at the expense of honest discussion and evaluation of a system. This demonizing of nWoD for being popular or for having dedicated fans has become a rather unfunny joke, with some of these trolls willfully deluding themselves into believing that the only people who still play that system are all somehow mentally deranged.

It's a shame that these trolls have a toehold on /tg/, likely because we are one of the few sites that allow enough freedom for people to shitpost in the manner that they do, but it's really gotten out of hand, with people actually hesitating to discuss the game because they know they're going to be triggering a small group of very angry, very dedicated trolls that can't tolerate people enjoying a game they aren't fond of.

>>51651956
I bet next you'll claim that PF outsells 5e, right?

Fucking PIDF, even with the budget of $20 that WotC has allocated to 5e, it's outselling PF by miles.

>>51656034
>I bet next you'll claim that PF outsells 5e, right?

I don't know any sales numbers on 5e, so I can't really comment on that. I've mostly ignored 5e since after the playtest fiasco and moved onto other systems.

>>51656052
I'm new around here, what was the playtest fiasco?

>>51656092
Some of the stuff I remember...

All flavors of Fighter got expertise dice.
Monks got more and did more stuff with their Chi
Dragon Sorcerers transformed into melee forms when they ran out of spells.

>>51656092

The 5e playtests were great. They were full of new, cool interesting ideas, awesome class options and plenty of innovation.

And it was rolled back. Bit by bit, packet by packet, until it was all gone or so thoroughly neutered it didn't matter.

Does this make 5e a bad game? No. It's clear that they knew their audience, that playing it safe and sticking to things that were familiar was the right call, and they're being richly rewarded for it.

I'm part of a minority who really wishes for the game it could have been, bold and new and different... But it's clear I'm not their target demographic.

>>51656092
The playtest itself was a fiasco, and was by itself responsible for 90% of the hate 5e got at launch.

The biggest issue though was that it was incredibly similar to the Pathfinder playtest in that it was basically just a marketing stunt. Only one or two real changes happened due to fan input, and those only happened due to the forums nearly rioting over them(the notable incident being when the fans wanted Fighters that had options. This gave us the Martial Dice Fighter, which was probably the best iteration of the Fighter D&D's ever had. Of course this version of the Fighter was removed the instant 5e went into closed playtesting, with Mearls citing the lack of fan support for Fighters with options.

The forums threw a fit again, followed by them suddenly going down for maintenance, with all of the threads about the Fighter mysteriously vanishing when it came back up(along with the threads containing evidence of them rigging survey polls, most notably the infamous Casting System poll).

The surveys were also useless for gathering data, in that most of them just boiled down to "Do you like this change we made, and why is your answer Yes?"

Plus a lot of genuinely good shit was in the playtest that got pulled for basically no reason, like the above Fighter and Gish Dragon Sorcerers that started each day off as squishy spellcasters, and changing slowly into more melee claw combat the more they used their spells.

5e turned out well in spite of everything mind you, but most people, like myself, who participated in the playtest didn't even touch 5e for months due to how fucking awful the whole experience was.

>>51656134
>>51656128
>>51656199
The only reason why they scaled it back is because they knew that if they went forward with that design then everyone involved would've revolted like they did with 4e.

As much as people bitch about 3rd edition, a lot of people's perception on what D&D is meant to be was influenced by 3.PF's design philosophy. So Fighters are supposed to be mundane benchwarers, Monks are supposed to all around worthless, sorcerers are supposed to be shittier wizards (yet still more powerful than the martials due to being a full caster) and the list goes on.

5e's playtest is only a consequence of 3.PF's influence within the hobby, it's sad but at least we still got something.

File: 1468429736075.jpg (1MB, 3840x2160px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 3840x2160px

>>51656324
>The only reason why they scaled it back is because they knew that if they went forward with that design then everyone involved would've revolted like they did with 4e.

Didn't even bother reading the rest of this.

Here's your reply.

>>51656336
So you're saying that if they had kept the original ideas from the playtest, the fanbase wouldn't have shat on 5e for being "not muh deeandee?"

Keep in mind, this is the same fanbase that shat on ToB/PoW for making martials "anime" and the same fanbase that shits on 4e because "everyone's a mage."

People want martials to be mundane and weak and mages to be frail but godlike, it's sad but this is what people associate D&D with and WotC knew better than to try swimming against the tides again.

>>51656396
>Keep in mind, this is the same fanbase that shat on ToB/PoW for making martials "anime" and the same fanbase that shits on 4e because "everyone's a mage."

Naming a minority who's opinions aren't worth listening to doesn't really help your case there.

>>51656407
it does when the lead designer is a member of that minority

>>51656407
The ones who are in the minority were the ones who were willing to give them a chance. You still can't use PoW/ToB if you play in public games or PFS.

>>51656452
Are you referring to Buhlman(Pathfinder) or Mearls(5e)?

Actually, doesn't matter, both are well-known for having crippling brain damage as far as game designs go, so yes, lead designers are at times not worth listening to.

>>51656467
>You still can't use PoW/ToB if you play in public games or PFS.
I mean, fair point, but why in the world are you playing PFS in the first place?

>>51656476
The point was that 3.PF's influence meant that 5e couldn't afford to stray outside the lines in fear of ending up like 4e. I'm honestly surprised they were able to get away with what they did.

>>51656525
>in fear of ending up like 4e.
A well-designed game that outsold 3.5 by a fairly large margin?

>>51656543
A game that's hated by the majority of the 3.PF fanbase and is brought up as an example as to why balanced gameplay is a bad thing and why martials need to be shittier than mages.

That and PF was able to swoop in and steal most of its fanbase overnight since the bulk of the community still only wanted to play more third edition.

>>51656572
>why balanced gameplay is a bad thing and why martials need to be shittier than mages.

Oh, you're just baiting.

This conversation would have gone a lot faster if you just said that right at the start.

>>51656543
Did it? I saw a lot of bitching back and forth on the subject, but nobody ever had any reliable numbers.

>>51656606
Wizards doesn't release reliable numbers, but Mearls himself admitted every edition of D&D has outsold the previous one.

Sadly, this is one of those articles that got lost when Wizards decided to just get rid of their forums.

>>51656595
I'm not baiting, this line of thinking still persists today, whether you choose to believe it or not.

The fact that martials lost so many cool options yet the fanbase still chose to buy it speaks volumes for how people feel about martials actually being useful.

>>51656630
>but Mearls himself admitted every edition of D&D has outsold the previous one.
>wowit'sfuckingnothing.jpg

You think he's gonna shit-talk their product?

>>51657573
Mearls is well-known for his raging hateboner for 4e. I would absolutely be unsurprised if he shit-talked it yet again.

>>51657573
Mearls fucking hates 4e, and actually did refer to it dismissively when he could. He intentionally killed it with Essentials to pave the path for 5e.

>>51657573
>Do you think Mearls would say something bad about 4e?

Is this a trick question?

File: dontforgettohavefun.png (163KB, 777x705px) Image search: [Google]

163KB, 777x705px

6E HAS COME OUT AND IT'S A PIECE OF SHIIIIIIIT. THE WILD SUCCESS OF STARFINDER HAS LEFT PATHFINDER A DEAD BRAND. MILLIONS OF PLAYERS ARE LEFT OUT IN THE WILD WITH NO RPG TO PLAY.

IT'S UP TO YOU TO MAKE A DND RIPOFF AND MAKE MAD MONEY. WHAT DO YOU DO?

>>51658351
My own homebrew mix of previous editions and Legend/Strike!

>>51658492

RIP Legend. A beautiful fucking game that will never be.

>>51661014
All it's really missing is a MM equivalent, since it's really, really easy to expand upon it.

>>51661417
One of these days there should be a "/tg/ gets shit done" sort of thread where everybody throws a couple of creatures into a PDF together along with preexisting stuff from their forums. All it would *really* take is a dozen people interested in doing it, and suddenly you've got those options you need.

>>51664335
http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/index.php/topic,1369.msg25304.html

Really, all we'd have to do is give hard stats to these.

>>51638132
Don't sit anywhere. Leave the warroom and then you can actually enjoy our hobby.

>>51664440
>>51664335
Given the Track system and the Mook/Elite Mook/Operative templates, it probably wouldn't be terribly difficult to make a utility to speed up the creation of things like this. I would expect the hardest part would be to have the output be well organized, but simply collating abilities/stats/track features would make it so much faster to organize on your own.

>>51665151
Which is why it's frustrating that they don't have a tool for character generation.