Witch > Sorcerer > Warlock > Psion > Wizard This

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>>51591326
>Psion

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>psion not dead last
>warlock before wizard

>>51591326
What's a Psion?

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>>51591487
Psions are basically a fancy name for people with psychic powers. It's bullshit scifi that doesn't fit in standard fantasy but is used by faggots who want to have magic powers without actual magic.

>>51591535
Psionicists are a lot like ki users, mate.

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>>51591326
Wizard = Sorcerer > Witch = Warlock > Most homebrews
>
Psion

>>51591535
>muh syfy
That bullshit has literally been addressed since 1e. Nerds who get booty bothered about a magical archetype that has more in common with ascetic types than Odin wannabes reading out of their textbooks are dumb.

>>51591554
Yes, specially in the sense that they're really out of place in standard fantasy stories.

>>51591723
Psionics fit a lot more conceptions of fantasy magic than vancian casting. It's a lot closer to how sorcerers work in Howard's Conan stuff, for one.

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>>51591326
Actually, OP, if you reverse that list THEN it is correct.

>>51591535
well excuuuse me for wanting to use a system that is more mechanically closer to how most magic is used in fantasy literature, is often more balanced than wizards, and can even let me run a Hindu Fantasy type game

>>51591326
Is this thread about the names that mages go by in magic worlds in general, or about 3.5/PF games?

Honestly the first is a more fun topic.

>>51591326
Surprisingly (not really) stupid loli poster made a irrelevant and stupid thread that's just vague enough to encourage discussion without any sort of point to it.

>>51591535
> faggots who want to have magic powers without actual magic.
I don't get why people say this when Psionics in D&D is explicitly a form of magic. It just doesn't rely on Gods or the Weave.

A Psion in an Anti-magic-field is still fucked.
>>51591351
>>51591340
Shit taste, detected.

>>51591996
Have you considered not playing DnD for that Hindu fantasy? You know, like how you don't use MAID RPG to play Shadowrun.

Then again there's a fucking Magical Girl class in Pathfinder thanks to people like you, so whatever.


Psionics are shit, but Vancian casters are also shit. Rename Psionics to something less retarded-sounding and they're probably fine.

>>51592081
>Have you considered not playing DnD for that Hindu fantasy?
Rakshasa have been in D&D since 1e. And so have ascetic mind wizards. Checkmate, 3aboo.

>>51592081
>Psionics are shit, but Vancian casters are also shit. Rename Psionics to something less retarded-sounding and they're probably fine.
Literally why?

People have had brains and minds for as long as human history.

If people can develope powers with their brains and minds, why would it take till suddenly the space age to tap into that. They would using that shit all throughout history.
>Have you considered not playing DnD for that Hindu fantasy?
Why shouldn't I. There are already Monks and Asuras and Rakshashas running around.

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>>51591326
>Psion

>>51592100
>Checkmate, 3aboo.
Hey man, I'm pro-psionics and a 3aboo. Psionics+ToB is literally the only reason I bother.

>>51591340
>>51591351
>>51591535
>>51591558

Glad to know there are still a few people left with some common sense.

>>51592125
>>51592113
Good to see there are a whole lot of fucking retards up this morning.

>>51592139
Yup, cos Ness and Lucas from Smashbros totally fit with typical swords-and-sorcery settings.

Yup, because not having spell slots in a system built around spell slots is balanced.

Yup, because making people's heads explode by thinking about it is a cool and balanced class 10/10 bro.

FFS... just... FFS.

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>My tastes are objectively better than your tastes and I don't have to explain why!
Trollling is against global rule 3.

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Trying to explain to psionic fanboys why psionics don't fit in DnD is like trying to explain to Pathfinder players why Kitsune and Magical Lolis don't belong in Pathfinder.

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>>51592186
Psionics and D&D have always been present together, since AD&D in the 70's, because of fantasy books where that was the case.

>>51592186
>tfw there are people who pretend to be grogs who haven't seen the 1e PHB or 2e Complete Psionics
>tfw there are 3aboos who have never heard of the glory of Darksun

>>51592186
>get a load of this guy cam

>>51592235
>>51592243
There are reasons these things got banished to the realm of third-party content as time went on.

>>51592295
Literally never happened outside of PF, which isn't even an official game of D&D and is designed by bottom barrel retards.

I think the real issue here is that there are two camps of interpretation when it comes to psionics.

One camp sees them as the magic version of monks. Dr Strange type Mystics who hone their magic with meditation and psuedo-spiritualism.

Then there's the other camp who sees psionics as Warhammer 40k Warp or the Force from Star Wars or other any of a dozen other things in that vein of science fiction and feels like it doesn't doesn't fit in a world of fantasy magic. To be fair, I can't really blame this camp, if only because this is what grognards sometimes WANT to play their special snowflakes as.

>>51592295
>banished to the realm of third party content
It was never banished to third party content.
Psionics was core in 1e, core in 2e (the red books were expanded core, and it had S&P options).
It was a major splat in 3.0, it was a major splat in 3.5, both third party.
It was core in 4e and Darksun was revived as a well loved system.
It has been in dev since literally launch of 5e and the main reason the playtest isn't out yet is that Darksun isn't out for 5e.

>>51591326
Class-based games are trash.

This is the objective truth and you know it.

I don't understand how mind wizards can't fit in with regular wizards. Anon a dumb.

>>51592162
Not really. Just marketing. 3.X Psionics is recognized as being the pinnacle of design for the system. It's simple, intuitive, and much more balanced than vanician.
>>51592162
Not as they are but I can see their stories being tweaked for him. And I can easily see Aang, Dhalism, and Dragonball Era fitting in fine.

Fuck dragonball is a great example of why "Psionics must be sci-fi" is bullshit.

>>51592385
Wanna be grogs being parrots.

>>51592351
>both third party
I meant neither third party

>>51592162
>Yup, because not having spell slots in a system built around spell slots is balanced.
You mean having PP instead of spell slots and having to pay to scale your powers up, which is apparently totally unbalanced unlike Wizards' spells scaling for free just by leveling.

Were you dropped on your head as a baby?

>>51592060
>A Psion in an Anti-magic-field is still fucked.

Not true. In fact, that's actually a major distinction of the difference between Psionics and Magic. In fact, there's actually a psionic version of the anti-magic field spell that only works on psionic abilities.

>>51592513
That assumes for magic-psionics transparency, a common rule.

>>51592186
This is pretty much spot on and this is why OP is also getting pooper perforated about people not liking Psions.

>>51592623
It just seems pretty arbitrary to single out one flavor of wizard. It'd be like saying warlocks don't fit in dnd. It's silly.

>>51592623
And yet all I see is wizard players being booty bovered about things that aren't Tolkien all day everyday.

>>51591554
Ki is specifically muscle magic m8.

>>51591723
Monks were introduced along with your beloved Paladins.
Standard D&D has a lot more in common with standard Xuanhuan stories than Muh Medieval not!Europe.

>>51592513
These things are only even written down for the deviants NOT using the default rule, which IS full equivalence of psionics and magic.

>>51592513
That's literally the opposite of the rules. The 3.5 book even says badshit happens when you do that.>>51592801

>>51592854
Which is strange because wizards in D&D with their gamey spell slot system don't match up nearly as well to Tolkienesque wizards either. It's actually really, really fucking uncommon in fantasy fiction for magic to be represented more like vancian casting than psionics. Preparing into a fixed allotment of pre-sterilized spell slots instead of having fluid and varying levels of energy and effort a mage puts into his magic just adds this weird level of arbitrariness when used in a setting.

>>51592881
No its not. Fuck, 4e even merged it with Psionics

>>51593124
Tolkien stuff is more about the theme than the mechanics.

>>51593605
Which would have been totally disrupted if they had to STOP for mechanics like D&D wizards do, yes?

>>51593125
>4e

Monks were introduced far earlyer then that and they were always using magic.
Fuck of with your not!Magic bullshit and go wank to your furries in pathfinder threads.

>>51593689
>whines about psionics
>while defending monk as somehow older
Monks and Psionics are both as old as paladins and rangers.

>>51591326
Witch (Fluff) > Wizard = Sorcerer > Warlock > Witch (In Practice) > Random lesser-known caster classes > Warmage > Most Homebrews.

I don't have enough characters for the "greater than" signs required to express the gap between that whole chart, above, and psions, below. Calling them shit tier would be an insult to shit.

>>51593689
And psionics is a form of magic. How is this a hard concept?
>>51592513
I find it interesting that anti-psion fags seem to not understand the rules written in the books and then spout shit about what does and doesn't belong.
>http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm
>The default rule for the interaction of psionics and magic is simple: Powers interact with spells and spells interact with powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as psionics-magic transparency.

>>51593974
This is the same kind of person who tought Disintegrate was OP in 2e (despite a very long list of reasons why that was bullshit)

>>51593811
Witch outclasses sorcerer because more versatility.

>>51594102
I just wonder why Psionics out of all things inspires such ignorance.

Like anti-Psionic people seem to cling to explicit falsehoods even after being proven wrong time after time.

Like the whole "it's not magic thing" it's right there in the books that it functions like magic in all but name, and even that's debatable since it's an Supernatural effect which means it's magical in D&D.

Like is it just retards echoing opinions they don't understand? Some kind of trolling? What?

>>51594144
In 2E it was fundamentally different from magic so retards thought it was overpowered for some reason.

In 3.0, it was fucktarded because you had ways to choose your casting stat, which led to CON abuse.

>>51594284
Wasn't that your dependent on your discipline? I'm more familiar with 3.5 Psionics(i.e 1/2 the shit worth looking at).

>>51594300
Yes, which made certain disciplines OP as fuck and others really really bad.

>>51594126
This guy gets it

>>51593974
>>51594144
I've used alternate interaction psionics before but that was because none of the players rolled a psionic class and the BBEG was an aboleth so I wanted to give them a bit more "wtf" factor

worked pretty well

I wasn't even aware of an anti-psion sentiment. Literally wizards but with ESP.

>>51594144
Honestly, running Psionics with non-transparency to normal magic (A sidebar option in 3.x, which IIRC is where most of the psionics wars come from) improves it quite measurably, since at least then it has a distinct theme supported by the mechanics. In fact, having actually played with non-transparent psionics I wonder sometimes if breaking arcane/divine transparency would do well (So you couldn't, say, remove a divine and arcane curse with the same curse removal magic) Is it a good theme? I don't think so, but that's a matter of personal taste. As "magic 2.0 that's still magic" it reeks, and hatches the spell points/mana subsystem under its bloated, Tsathoggua-esque frame where more interesting implementations can't get at it.

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>using magic
>ever

>>51595298
>improves it quite measurably, since at least then it has a distinct theme supported by the mechanics.

You have no idea what you're talking about. It just sets up loads of "lel you set up Psi defense so literally everything ignores you because it's arcane/divine"

or

"lel you bypass all defenses because who the fuck prepares for a psionic attack exclusively?"

Between points, Manfiestation displays, Psionic Focus, and Active Energy types I feel like Psionics already has a good theme and it's more of a matter of if you enjoy "Magic as powers people posses" vs "Magic as something that exists separately from the person" i.e "Traditional" magic.

>>51595097

How could you not have seen it? These are the same faggots who disavow monks because it doesn't fit their notion of tolkien esque fantasy setting when the fucking monk has been in the system damn near since the beginning and that, as a whole, the system is pretty much a kitchen sink of various fantasy tropes

>>51591487
Psionic is a new-age term for "psychic, but with assistance," so... mostly psychic androids etc.
When Gygax was writing Supplement VI he misused the term, and his "synonymous with psychic" definition caught on.

>>51592081
>how you don't use MAID RPG to play Shadowrun.
Doesn't sound like a bad idea, actually.

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>>51592060
>>51592123
3.pfags get off my board. Re.

>>51591326
In 5e:

Arcane Trickster > Sorcerer > Psion > Warlock > Wizard

No official Witches, but there's plenty of Homebrew for them. Best one I've seen is as a subclass of Sorcerer: http://www.middlefingerofvecna.com/2015/08/witch.html

Sounds like a good list to me, wizards are so fucking gay.

Witch > Wizard > Sorcerer > Warlock > Miscellaneous > Incarnum > Psionics.

Now if you'll excuse me, I just remembered that Incarnum exists, so I think I need a stiff drink.

>>51595878
5e a shit though

>>51596078
Arguably not. It causes less bullshit threads than 3.5.

>>51596101
A system being as bland as 5e is not a good thing, anon.

>>51596160
I've really never understood this. It's D&D. It plays D&D. There's been a steady stream of homebrew options from UA, DM's Guild, and the community that all your race/class options are covered so long as your DM is reasonable in allowing such options. Sure the genre is somewhat limited to fantasy, but other than that I can't really say that it's bland.

>>51596628
I dunno man, it just rubbed me the wrong way. I didn't think I'd yearn for a 3.5 game until 5e came out.

The homebrew and stuff is nice, but everyone is homebrewing out the wazoo because 5e just isn't doing enough.

>>51596679
Yeah, I get that. In the end, 5e is everyone's second favorite RPG. It does nothing too offensive, but it's not really all that special either. It's strong point is that it's popular, easy to find a group for, and easy to learn. It's easy to settle on a 5e game, and you'll probably have a good time, but you'll always wants something a little more in the end.

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>>51596897
That is pretty well put, yes.

>>51591786
That just means that Vancian casting sucks, not that psionics and magic are completely interchangeable.

>>51595878
What makes trickster so good though?

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Dragonslayer >>> anything else

>>51598491
What good is a dog, with no hares to hunt?

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>>51591326
>warlock witch AND fucking PSION over wizard

>>51598607
Wizards a shit

a SHIT

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>>51598669
You should delete your post my friend

>>51598780
Can't delete the truth.

>>51591326
>Monster girl encyclopedia
Post a good girl, like a Baphomet next time.

>>51597989
Utility Caster that doesn't do anything and everything, and the class encourages you to play smart with your spells. It's also my vote as "Archetype most likely to de-rail the campaign." It's the ultimate skillmonkey that plays fair, and plays fun.

Plus, it's the Rogue with Magic.

>>51592186
But mind flayers have existed since fucking forever?

IDK maybe it's because I enjoy scifi and fantasy settings but I literally don't see any reason why psychics don't fit into fantasy just as much as people using nature magic or praying to gods or making pacts with Outsiders or whatever.

IMO magic being basically fucking math that anyone who is smart enough can memorize how to make a fireball is way less congruent with a setting than something like a sorcerer or psion who rely on inherent abilities and force of will/personality to manifest magic, or a warlock/cleric who explicitly derive their power from an outside source.

Ritual magic/spells>inherent ability>lol its math bro fireball is just like studying for Orgo

Wizards as they exist in 3.x are basically just nerd wish fulfillment.

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>>51599711
Don't talk shit

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>>51591326
>Bard not being first

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>>51595878
>mfw witches are just what you call female warlocks
It makes sense. I mean in most fantasy a witch is a spell caster that uses pact magic.

>>51600680
That's not what witches are and you know it, you're just trying to troll spergs.

>>51600732
In Christian mythology witches are people who make deals with the Devil/demons/evil spirits ect. to gain magical powers.

>>51592162
>Yup, cos Ness and Lucas from Smashbros totally fit with typical swords-and-sorcery settings.
Oh what sorry I'm *releases a flurry of kung fu punches on thugs* kinda in a sticky situation *runs across water to escape thugs and throws shuriken back at them* can't refute this amazing argument right now *hops on the robot bear built by the party Artificer and rides off*
I bet you don't even bat an eyelash when your party is sent to fight mind flayers and other illithids.
>Yup, because not having spell slots in a system built around spell slots is balanced.
HAVING DIFFERENT MECHANICS IS BAAAAAAD is what you just said.
>Yup, because making people's heads explode by thinking about it is a cool and balanced class 10/10 bro.
Obviously save or die abilities shouldn't be a thing on any class.

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>>51600436
Right. Should've suggested Scylla instead.

>>51600846
Calm down anon, people can have opinions.

>>51596897
It's my favorite system though...

>>51600436
Baphomet or nothing, faggot

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>>51601870
>>51600861

>>51591340
Wouldn't any kind of psion or psyker have a bit more raw punch power than a caster but much much less utility with it and a lot less things to do with the power beyond punch things?

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>>51591326
Witch is not just a female wizard, or warlock?

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>>51591326
Where are the druids?

>>51600680
>>51600789
Basically this, either demons if you are going with the Christian description. Mother goddess if you are going with the modern description.

Either seems to describe a flavor cleric more than anything else though.

>>51604256
Probably in the forest, fucking the trees like the uses piffs they are.

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>>51604256
it truly is a mystery

>>51591326
maybe if you like stars and glitter more than absolute power.

>>51602376
Baphomet honestly seem pretty bland.

>Super-Ultra-Mega powerful Magic Users, rival Witches in magical power.
>goat-loli
>Canonically The Greatest Vag ever.
>Once they rape you, they turn you into a Lolicon.

I mean it just sounds like they're the difinitive Mary Sues, even amomg Monstergirls. They're not the worst, but I'd put them in the C-Tier.

>>51600680
Witches could be split into three groups:

>Warlocks comuning with the devil

>Druids - worshiping nature, going full herbal and the ''old gods''

>Sorcerrer - just natural magic talent not in line with certain world-views. And you can bet your ass that people who had to actually study to use magic would be jelly.

>>51606434
I saw one thing that described witches are to druids like sorcerers are to wizards.

Another flavor of the class with a few different tweaks but ultimately uses mostly the same spell list.

>>51601357
Yes they can, but at least 75% of the people who hate on Psionic shit seem to be fucking terribly informed.