Pathfinder General /pfg/

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>>51535058
>OP pic
Don't you mean Dragonlaying edition
This Dragongirl thread now.

>>51535058
I like this picture but am worried it will get deleted.

>>51535109

Let the dice fall where they may.

In the mean time. I'mma shill this thing i'm making.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nstmQUI4lu8Ai8pYnVBjjfL0ebT-X4azRL2VJYJavIA/edit

For everyone who wanted to be a trap master, but didn't want to disarm traps.

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>>51535100

>There are like 10 pfg games now
Maybe it is time to stop

>>51535444
>they're all gestalt

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>>51535448
Almost true. Really, I give you full credit.

>>51535484
The only one I can think of off the top of my head that isn't is that "street gang" game that doesn't sound very fun. But not because it isn't gestalt.

>>51535444
Hey rate my idea
Instead of pathfinder adventurers
You are all lvl 20 anime girls in high school
And you fight for love
30 point buy gestalt
Link exhentai

>>51535525
This would actually be fun if it wasn't level 20.

how do we link exhentais

>>51535525
1. Is the blood money spell allowed?

2. Is the Sacred Geometry feat allowed?

3. Is the Fey Obedience (Magdh) feat allowed?

4. Is pre-game crafting allowed? If so, then how will pre-game crafting with the Craft Wondrous Item feat work? Will it follow the +25% WBL guideline in this page (scroll down to Adjusting Character Wealth by Level)?

>>51535544
Gotta go to the kiln of the first doujin

>>51535564
oh hi 2hu

>>51535544
>>51535564
Dont ask me
[Spoiler]Ask the magical girl familiar you all get for free [/spoiler]

Give me a vigilante talent that I can use when I'm primarily a spellcaster.

>>51535721
Tattoo Chamber

So recently I've had the pleasure of being the only evil character in a good party. Done this in three separate games.

In each game I was a different evil. One LE, one NE, and one CE.

The characters were the following:
>LE
Last son of an ancient noble family in its twilight who has gone to the capital in order to establish allies at court. Desperately desires to raise up his people from abject poverty and puzzle out the strange origins of his noble house. Also disentangle his family line from a curse coming from two directions that have eaten away at it for centuries. He is willing to do anything to accomplish these goals.
>NE
Boisterous mercenary captain fond of drinks, women, and warfare. Sought taking himself and his men to the farthest horizon, has slowly been working his way east for the past 15 years. He was known for his love of duels in particular and his hatred of authorities figures, particularly blue bloods. If given the chance he would challenge a blue blood to a duel, and aggravate them enough to call for it to be to the death.
>CE
A nationalist terrorist who fled his homeland after realizing the government was controlled by a sect of dopplegangers. Currently abroad seeking military support to retake his home, and gathering investors for his terrorist cells back home. Known as The Songbird after he threw away his previous identity.

Despite all three of these characters having committed terrible sins in front of the party and parts of the party being good they have not yet seen fit to try and either remove my character or kill him. The closest was with the :LE character when a LG one threatened to put him in irons after he found out the character was funding a gang war.

I can not tell. Am I playing evil wrong? Right? Somewhere in between?

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>>51535931
How is the last one CE? Strikes me more as CG tbqh. Perhaps CN because of the terrorism? But what he's trying to do is a good act imo. Maybe I'm just retarded though.

>>51535989
Most people associate the word "nationalist" with evil.

>>51535989
In the pursuit of freeing his homeland he has killed quite a few people and committed quite a few war crimes. Torture was the least among them. He is an ends justify the means sort of guy.

>>51535989

I'm more confused how a character who is LE is particularly concerned about poverty and doing anything to accomplish their goals.

>>51536010
I can see that in some cases; but, not when your government is literally controlled by the reptilians.

>>51536025
Yeah that's why I said maybe CN. CE are typically evil for the sake of destroying things, not fixing them no?

>>51536010
Nationalist simply believes he cares about his country and presumably its people, though it's not a given. A monarchist, republican or socialist could just as easily be inclined to good or evil.

Terrorism is generally considered an evil act, but if you're up against an evil regime then that's far more neutral course of action. The rebellion in Star Wars would be classified as terrorists, for example.

>>51536043
He is concerned about the poverty of the people he governs. All three characters can be defined by a tribal mentality of some sort.

>>51536046
Murdering innocents even for a good cause is still evil. For example he burned down a church from a new religion with the congregation inside to prove a point and send a message.

>>51536073
>burning down a church with people still inside
That's the good evil shit right there

So I have been looking for a good electronic/online character generator/sheet for awhile. Do you guys have any ideas/recommendations?

Since I am broke anything free would be a boon. I use PCGen but gotten to the problem where they are behind on source materials. So switching to an online sheet might be better. PCGen was nice that it had all the feats/items/etc all in once place and could do the calculations and stuff for me.It was very fast to make a character from scratch with it. Now that I am interested in certain classes/archetypes that the program does not support yet, I am switching off from them for now.

>>51536073

Why is their poverty his concern though? I could see it if he was ingratiating himself as a hero to the poor to use them as a mob, but fuck them and their stupid asses for not being born with PC class levels.

>>51536116
Because he legitimately cared about his countrymen. He just doesn't care about anyone else. Especially the arrogant sods who laughed at his family and took advantage of his father's and grandfather's weakness.

>>51536073
I guess CE works and it really isn't too big an issue. But, I'd still go towards CN even for that, because the character feels he needs to commit this act to achieve his goal. He isn't good; but, I wouldn't go so far as to say he's CE. Perhaps NE as he kills to fix his government like a mercenary would for coin, as a means to an end. The alignment system is probably to simple to categorize something like that though.

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A new pair of spellburst savant archetypes homebrew I put together, as I had fun with the Phenomenal Prestidigitator. The Chorist also has a bit of a bardic theme but in a rather different way. The Glorified Glossolalist is a divine take on the Spellburst Savant. They can be combined, if you want to go full happy clappy.

Consecrated Chorist, a more ally support Spellburst Savant.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qdpAD6J37KQFPHSZq4v0PUHsqRZBm4FTxVCMutFCFtI/edit?usp=sharing

Glorified Glossolalist, having to deal with the fact that healing spells don't actually scale for shit with metamagic feats and thus needing a new feature for such.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1g3-Htf7HYQn6E3_BluPpZAtv3MPMUG3131P1N5L2dwU/edit?usp=sharing

These are still the alpha versions, feedback highly appreciated.

>>51536138

You ain't really lawful evil until you use the poverty of your countrymen to keep those fuckers in line. If they don't like it, they can join your private military for guaranteed food and pay.

>>51536163
>killing innocents by burning them alive
>CN
Good lord anon I don't know what makes a man evil in your game

>>51536211

First the rape, then the burning, then the second round of rape. Then one more for good measure.

>>51536196
Part of the first things he did actually was privatize the military and gain funding from the few wealthy families in his barony in exchange for giving them the right of having nationally recognized military forces. Basically giving them the right to move large numbers of soldiers across borders and use military toll roads and the like.

The country had a problem with a large amount of young poor men due to the social structure. Particular religious. So the privatization of the military was part 1, using the funding gained from the other wealthy houses to pay for his own along with a tithe put on certain crops.

The next was a public work to establish a pass through the mountain range the barony has its back to. It employed a lot of men and would cut 200 miles off the round trip through the mountains once complete. Also have an excuse to go tomb diving in the mountains because the entire range was infested with undead.

>>51536211
The character's motivation matters a lot too. As described in the pathfinder system evil is a desire to make others suffer. The character in question, doesn't want to have people suffer. These people need to die to achieve a greater good.

My main reason is, if there were no doppelgangers running his country, would his ideals be to sow dissent and suffering? If not, I wouldn't say his alignment is CE. Alignments can shift; but, shifting from CE to a non-evil alignment once the bbeg is dead seems a bit much.

Sorry to be such a pedant.

>>51536110
Any recommendations?

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>>51536211

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>>51536179
>That art
Damn Anon, you now made me recall that awful Wrath of the Righteous AP.
>First module was a massive escort mission.
>Second module felt like a damn video game and was cringy how badly the army rules were
>Third module is okay
>Fourth module was okay then...
>The Foulsome Queen
>Succubus made of Noctycula's diarrea
>She even sings to those members of the party she wanted to seduce

I am the Mighty Queen of Poo
And I am going offer my shit to you.
A huge supply of tish comes from my big tits
How about some scat, you little fart?

>>51536294
You're best off making it manually on Mythweavers or on a roll20 sheet.

>>51536288
Here's my question though, is CE Anon's cause good enough to call them CN?

This is what we know about the CE character's motivation
>Wants to take down government because they're doppelgangers
What's wrong about that? Sure, on paper it sounds bad because the potential for corruption is ludicrous, but, what if they're all Good aligned doppelgangers? We never got the full story.
>Retake government through terrorist cells who are fine with killing innocents in horrible ways to use their lives as stepping points for their message
That's evil as dicks no matter how charming or roguish you are.

The motivation could be good for the nation, but the way they're going about it is cold hearted and psychopathic as they're using other people as their tools without a care for what the victims feel.

>>51535100
>Rubbery pink human-like skin
>Human proportions and limbs
>Additional wings are made of feathers (NOT SCALES/SKIN)
>Wears armor stylized after scales
>Only appendage appearing dragon-like is a tail, but that's probably a butt plug, anyway

You said dragongirl thread? More like harpy fanservice thread.

>>51536359

That's ludicrous. They're doppelgangers, of course they're evil. That's like saying "What if all those innocents he killed are really evil aligned commoners?"

>>51536343
Stop that.

>>51536359
Really, is getting worrisome how many sociopaths and psychopaths had been appearing in this hobby lately.

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>>51536386
You're right. Needs more dragons.

>>51536359
>they're using people as their tools without a care for what the victims feel

A CN character "values his own liberty but doesn't strive to protect others' freedom".

A CE character "does what his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable".

A NE character "are not necessarily enthusiastic murderers—it's so messy and causes so much potential trouble—but they rarely have qualms with the deed itself".

After reading more into it, I'm more inclined to say NE. Even though it may not be stereotypical behavior for a NE character.

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>>51536405

>>51536390
It could be.
Most evil cults basically feed upon the lower strata of a pseudo-feudal society with the offer of power and an improvement in life quality.
Is for that reason my PCs never take rest in an inn of a "free village" and camp outside for fear of waking up stranded and ready to be Kalimaed.

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>>51536413

>>51536390
How do you know? If we wanna go by the bestiary, we find that doppelgangers are Neutral creatures. If we assume that it's one person in power making copies of themselves, then the question remains with the LE/NE/CE anon on where the motivation lay with them. My stance on all this, (aside from killing an innocent being an evil act) is that if the anon calls their character CE, then certainly there's a whole host of stories we don't know that backs it up.
>>51536397
Who? Me or the anon calling them CN?

>>51536423
That's SOP for most religions until they're large enough to auto-follower from people raising children into it en-masse.

You attract the poor by telling them their suffering will be worth it if it's done in "His name", and that their lot in life will become better.

You attract the rich... by offering them something to hide behind (like with scientology), AND of course... the poor.

>>51536467
The Anon unable to tell that killing innocents is far from CN and way into CE.

>>51536491
>theists are innocent
Thanks for the laugh.

>>51536347
>>Succubus made of Noctycula's diarrea
Wow I actually looked this shit up.

She's an Omox that wants to drive out some rival demons so she tries the whole "This form should be more pleasing to you" thing.

>>51536347

Get ready for the MOLTHUNE AP written by award-winning author Amber Scott

>>51536511
>Wow I actually looked this shit up.
I just realized this works both ways.

>>51536511
WHAT?! She was an omox?!
Fuck, so my GM made up the "she is a succubus made with Noctycula's diarrea" thing?
What hangers me most is that she was a very useful NPC so I couldn't slay her and instead found that the Sarenrae PCs of the party began to redeem her.

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>>51536533
Yeah. I was surprised too since everyone called her a poop succubus. I shouldn't be surprised WotR might be the most lied about AP that exists.

>>51536559
my sides have taken 40d6 force damage and now need to make a DC 35 Fort save to not implode

What do you do when you think up a character you'd really like to play, only to realize that (coincidentally) a popular character from a different work of fiction with many superficial similarities already exists?

>>51535989
Being Evil is easy. It doesn't matter how noble your goals are, if you do evil things in pursuit of them, you're still neutral at best.

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>>51536657
Just roll with it.

Even worse is when you have a character already, and a new thing comes out very similar to them and everyone thinks you're referencing them.

I got a king-knight guy I've had for a few years now. But then Overwatch comes out and well he's basically Reinhardt but not German.

But you know, Nihil Novi Sub Sole and all that business. Can't let it get to you.

>>51536559
No wonder it never felt as bad when told by my gm as this place preaches

>>51536721
Hmm, I guess. It's compounded by the fact that fanart of said character (there's a lot) would make for great character art, which is how I got reminded of the character existing in the first place.

>>51536741
Yeah, I know the feel.

Reinhardt makes good character art for this guy too. They both even have powersuits. Albeit my guy's involves a lot more brass and he uses a sword rather than a hammer.

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>>51536405
>>51536413
>>51536460


The Queen Lua Culdranth will see you now.

>>51536870

Dragon DM! Dragon DM!

What do you have planned for your players next?

How does double weapons work in "Creating a new weapon"? Does each weapon share a pool of points or do they have their own?

>>51536968
granting the double weapon feature doesn't appear to be an option by raw, which sucks.

>>51536986
Based on the d20pfsrd it is just a free thing you can add? http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons#TOC-Creating-New-Weapons

>>51537002
oh there it is. Well, trouble is that it doesn't seem to receive any additional design points, though it probably should

>>51536968
>>51536986
>>51537002
>>51537021

>If you choose the additional damage type or the improved damage quality with the weapon (see below), treat each end as a separate weapon when determining the Design Point cost of that quality.

Looks like it uses the same pool of points, but Additional Damage Type and Improved Damage have to be bought for each end separately.

>>51537021
>>51537030

well if I make it exotic, 2 hands, and use add design points 3 times due to 2 hands, i can get a base of 12 design points to play with for my double weapon.

I want to recreate the scythe/gun from RWBY. It will have a crossbow and scythe for shitty switch hitter shenanigans.

>>51536196
Hamas pls.

Is it Lawful Good to talk shit about unreliable, Chaotic jerks within the party in a private journal that the character never plans to show to anyone?

>>51537102
Venting about retards is a neutral act, same as brushing your teeth really.

>>51537102
That is routinary and also a good reason to bond with the lawful aligned members of your party.
I did played a Lawful Good paladin who got along with a Lawful Evil insiquitor of Azmodeus thanks to our common disgust towards our CN bard.

>>51537177
Yes, unfortunately it's my dude, one other LG co-religionist, and six other dummies of varying degrees of Chaos, including a dirty Gorumite. Pretty painful listening to their craven, selfish banter.

How do I into Protean Prowler?

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>>51537102
>that much passive aggression

That's not healthy.

>>51537177

Did you two fug?

>>51537211
Let the Lawful ones vent it out, you don't want 'em exploding!

>>51537211
The high priest of the church where he was instructed told him it was therapeutic to commit his thoughts to writing. Said it made it easier to contemplate them, and how to best act in a Just manner going forward regardless of personal feelings of discomfort or disgust.

>>51537055
Just ask the gm if you can refluff a gun axe.

>>51537220
This. Crazy Iomedaean with no outlet might Jihad their way into mass murder.

>>51537194
>Gorumite
"Battles for the battle god, blaablarbalrbargh!"
Fuck, how I hate those guys.
The best thing you can do in those cases is use them as the halfling of Order of the Stick. Direct all their selfish childish pseudo-intellects towards a cause which benefits civilization in the long term.

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>>51537220
Lawful Good might be venting in order to avoid any real conflict.
Lawful Best is being patient and actually talking to them in a mature fashion.

>>51537236
Even the pent up Abadarian needs to have some release before they start treating everyday like Taxday
>>51537244
We're all mortal and release is natural, however there should be some level of maturity for sure and not petty gossip and groaning.

>>51537237
That's the idea, but the Gorumite is a smug, 6'4" half-elf amazon with a semi-affluent upbringing that constantly belittles and berates others for her amusement. Just a constant stream of grief spews from her mouth. It's quite insufferable, especially since she seems to particularly love bullying my 5'6" dude for any failed attempt at anything, especially as it relates to combat.
It's quite distressing, since the Light of the Sword demands we always try to vanquish Evil at our own peril.

>>51537230
>Said it made it easier to contemplate them,

How long do you need to contemplate twenty pages of "MOTHERFUCKING SHIT-EATING DICKSHITS SON OF PIG" to realize it might not be a suitable long-term method of dealing with an issue?

>>51537220
My lawful good warpriest wast turned chaotic good thanks precisely to not being able to vent out. Our part's bard used her crazy social engineering skills to even made my PC took the way of the hungermaw.

>>51537260
>>51537244
Oh, there's no venting. He doesn't even complain in his proper letters to his betrothed. He only commits the rants to a private diary for personal reasons, and then feels ashamed for letting them get to him like that.

>>51537264
What do you propose? Some kind of confrontation? Delicious party drama?

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>>51537055
What do you guys think?

>>51537232
I'm not planning to bring this weapon to a current game, this is more like a thought exercise or something. But that is a good idea.

>Check out Assassin applicants
>Delicious Ratfolk rogue, Elf ranger, Kobold trapper, Shabti monk-chemist, Milf mesmerist portraits that make you want to be in the same party as them
>Realize that some of their entries are poorly formatted with no attempt at spell check which will likely spell their doom

Oh well, I kind of wanted to see a sexy party but I guess it wasn't meant to be.

>>51537262
Teach hem a lesson.
Make her understand the pain she makes other endure with her acts by using a wand of shrinking person as well as being hexed by a good aligned witch, then you make her perform task while under the effect of those spells.
After the humiliation then you expose her that the pain she feels now is what everyone else feels when she talks shit taking advantage of her half-elf amazonian muscles.

>>51537314
i dunno there's some weird shit from the GM of that game, i'm leery

>>51537315
Or just drug her and rape
T. Martin

>>51537315
That seems very harsh. Not sure that's Justice.

>>51537307
Why give it reach and spring loaded? As it stands it is a shitty light crossbow, with a shitty long spear attached.

>>51537344
Same here, GM kind of gives me the "noyoucant" vibes which may lead to intense metagaming to counter everything the PCs do.

>Agathiel vigilante takes the form of a dog and stakes out the village square waiting for their mark.
>Body guards immediately attack the dog seated by the alley because the guard commander hates dogs

>>51537362
What if she retaliates by raping him later on? She's certainly big enough.

>>51537372
Something makes me leery of that game as well not sure exactly what.

>>51537362
He can't go raping people. That would disappoint The Lady of Trumpets and his cute fiancée too.

>>51537410
Just take a level of vigilante. Then it won't be him doing it.

>mfw i spend a few months browsing Myth Weavers to see how it is
>accepted into a half dozen games, not one has survived
you fuckers don't know how good you have it around here

>>51536010
Nationalists are only cunts when they decide "I could help you out because you are in a bad way, but won't, because I can point and laugh instead".
I'm a "nationalist" of sorts, but I also maintain empathy and compassion for those who don't have it as good as me, and realize the best hope for the rest of the world (and myself) is to help others up, rather than watching, or kicking, them fall down.

>>51537424
Is that how Superman gets away with raping all those people?

>>51537447
This is why Steve rogers went through a dozen identities, he can't stop raping those jr avengers and jailbait xmen students.

>>51536288
However, overarching descriptions of evil is in the act of, not intent.
If you cause undue hardship, pain, or death, it is evil because it is NOT NECESSARY. You chose cruelty when there is almost always a better, albeit more difficult, route, and that is what defines evil: The Easy Road.

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>>51536515
... I swear if some of our characters get ripped off in that...

>>51536386
Anon, depending on the culture, dragons have feathers.
See Quezacoltl, some Chinese and Tibetan dragons.

>>51537466
I mean, can you blame him? That's prime booty range there. May as well get them while they're hot and fresh, you feel me?

>>51537467
Which is why the alignment system is dumb.
>Paladin goes the easy way up the mountain.
>Unknowingly triggers landslide.
>Landslide destroyed village.
>Paladin directly caused this with ignorance.
>Falls
Black and white morality is dumb.

>>51537521
What part of "WILLINGLY" confuses you, you fucking spastic?

>>51537521
The landslide didn't make the paladin fall. The DM over extending for a reason to make the paladin fall, made the paladin fall.

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>>51536870

>>51537521
To be fair, if we used subjective morality the rules lawyers would slow the game down to a crawl as they argue why they can smite X npc and why they can't be affected with Y alignment targeting spell.

All in all, I'd stick to the flawed but dependable objective alignment rather than the realistic yet obnoxious and cumbersome subjective variant.

>Objective alignment
"Its cut and dry, devils are evil! But maybe some of them can be reasoned with to do good to an extent."

>Subjective alignment
"Whoah, wait wait wait, what if... what if... war is wrong?"

Feel me? I'd rather go with the bland version rather than the one that caters to the wanna be philosophers bringing their Jayden smith bullshit into the table.

>>51536413
I want to twirl her hair around her fingers as I squeeze her close and give her absentminded head scratchies :3
>bitches love head scratchies

>>51537521
>Unknowingly triggers landslide.

Why is it that everyone who says the alignment system is dumb seems to be too dumb to understand it?

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>>51537483
It would be the only decent writing in the entire AP

>>51537521
Only intentions matter, not results
Paladin's good intentions can cause harm, but he doesn't fall for it

>>51537521
>Misquotes the book of vile darkness
The paladin should be informed of his wrongdoing it would be reasonable for him to try to make it up to the villagers if he wanted to maintain his alignment.

The part where he falls is when a party member warns him yet he STILL triggers the landslide to kill ONE measly ogre.

>>51537483
Has that kind of thing happened before? Paizuri steals homebrewed content and 3pp content without crediting the original source (which I'm pretty sure violates the OGL.)

But I haven't seen them skulking in roll20 games just to take people's donut steel.

>>51537652
>All these convenient gestalt games are just NPC farms

>>51537666
Fools!

>>51537521
That's not how it works, anon, at all.
You have made the worst strawman argument that only accomplishes showing how ignorant people who bitch about "alignments" actually are.

>>51537666
You can't trick me, Asmodeus!

>>51537617
Not in black and white morality only the action matters not the intent.
That is why eating a sapient creature is always evil.
It's also why the paladin falls for torturing Paul the baby eater to save fifteen babies that were kidnapped.

>>51537652
It depends. If you base something on something covered by the OGL you are legally obligated to release it under the same license.

Product identity on the other hand is not under such a license. If I create Lucky A-Go-Go the Fighter who wields the Magic Sword That Shoots Lasers, they have to thoroughly shave off the serial numbers and do their own lore, so they can't just call him Ricky The-Stop-Stop the Fighter who wields the Enchanted Blade of Pew Pew and call it a day.

OGL only covers mechanics, and only mechanics, and nothing but mechanics. If you see "Magic Sword that Shoots Lasers" and you make something based on that, and you don't release it under OGL then you have violated the agreement.

For simple things it can be difficult to prove that it was based on it, but if you took the entire concept of a class and copy/pasted it (all while leaving in an obvious fault that resulted from a wiki markup typo) you would be up shit creek.

>>51537617
No, the paladin falls if he willingly, and knowingly, triggered a landslide.
A paladin can't fall for something they can't reasonably prevent or had knowledge of.

>>51537666

The game is tonight and tomorrow! The game is tonight and tomorrow!

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Does anyone remember how 2hu killed the Katapesh game?

>>51537521

Alignment is descriptive not prescriptive.

>your character has a set of beliefs
>these beliefs drive your characters actions
>your characters actions generally fall into 1 of 9 descriptive categories and can fluctuate

>>51537782
From the srd first line.
>This game assumes good and evil are definitive things.
>done or reached decisively and with authority.
So what is good and evil is explicitly defined by authority. Any act that is evil is always evil.

>>51537790
How would torture save anyone? Just put a bullet into his brains. This is why he falls.

>>51535058

That is one impressively large booty

Mmh mmh!

>>51537803
Did you just agree with me?

>>51537790
No, wrong. Intent only.
And
Intent changes based on information
If you eat meat you did not know was human, gm is not allowed to make a gotcha

>>51537835
Alignment is a statistic that measures your character's actions according to the universe's definition. It's perfectly possible for someone's morals to differ from their alignment.

>>51537499
Mesoamerican snake things aren't Dragons anon.

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What is the best necro? Cleric, Bone Oracle, Wizard, or Ocuromancer Dhampir(not sure on the spelling of that one).

>>51537975

What. How? Your morals are what drive your actions. Your alignment describes your actions.

>>51537997

Depends. What do you want to do with it? SoS? Wizard. Undead master? Cleric or juju oracle.

If you can get 3.5 content this is so sexy

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?353181-Dread-Necromancer-Pathfinder-update-(WIP)

>>51537997
I prefer cleric if I want to go all in. But if I'm just taking the night course for its most cost effective units (ie bloody skeletons) then I'd be perfectly happy to do it as sorcerer.

>>51538013
Because the universe doesn't care what your morals are. If I believe that executions must require a fair trial and proves guilt, and I strike down a LG Paladin who brought down a murderer to where he could be restrained, then the universe is going to smack my ass down to Evil.

>>51538080
>If I believe that executions must require a fair trial and proves guilt, and I strike down a LG Paladin who brought down a murderer to where he could be restrained

What? Why are you killing a paladin for restraining a murderer? Especially when you believe in trials.

>>51537990
For U

For them, it is.

>>51538110
The implication here is that the pally was going to kill him in the name of JUSTIIIIIIIIIICCCCCCEEEEE

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Which are the best "raeg powas" for the skald?

>>51538161
Pounce shit

>>51538143
Nobody does something that stupid

>>51538187
Anon, if you want a barbarian rage power that will grant you pounce first you must have Lesser Beast Totem and Beast Totem for then purchase Greater Beast Totem.

>>51537372
But anon....I just want to see all the exciting and fucked up ways the party kills people...I don't take an adversarial role with my players.

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>>51537314

>tfw I cannot make a cool backstory for my Witch/Rogue slumber hexing coup-de-grace assassin

Maybe someone else can use the idea.

>>51534709
For the most bonus feats you probably would want to go for Fighter||Phantom Thief Rogue. Your total feat amount would be:

10 from levels
1 from racial (assuming Human)
11 from Fighter levels
10 from Rogue levels
3 from Rogue levels (Human FCB)

For a total of 35 feats.

I have a bit of a quandry for you /pfg/ my CN Sorcerer is due to hit level 16 soon and as he has his robe of arcane heritage he will attain his capstone ability.

Seeing as he will have unlocked the capstone I find myself wondering what to do with his remaining 4 levels.

He is at heart a necromancer but unfortunately due to his alignment and the rules of our game Agent of the Grave and 3rd party is out and there arent many decent prestige classes for Sorcerers to dip into this late in the game.

Should I just stick with Sorcerer levels or is there something im missing?

>>51538461
Augmented Blade Soulknife opens with a bonus feat, can trade all 10 blade skills for bonus combat (or psionic) feats, and gets another three more from FCB.
So it caps at 36 if you take it instead of Rogue.

>>51538376
He'll never manage to kill an elf or a dragon.

>>51538877
Hope he doesn't lose his robe, because if he does, he loses his capstone ability.

>>51538911

Doesnt matter, it has a full caster

>>51538911
Replace rogue with ghastly claw beguiler and you're good for the elf.

Reposting from last thread

So /pfg/ I am going to be joining in a game soon as was browsing through and came across the bloodrager class. Thought it was kinda meh until I came across the different bloodlines and saw Kyton.

Motha fukin Chain Devil bloodline that has you sprouting chains from your nipples or wherever you want. Grappling foes, tripping the shit outta them, all while foaming/gigglng at the mouth.
Tell me how to make this actually a viable character (build suggestions) and if it is worth going into trip stuff.
(Note, DM wants no 3rd party stuff unfortunately)

Awhile ago in a game i'm playing in, my character got captured. Instead of rescuing them, we decided that I could play as the Succubus that our sorcerer controls.

Recently the DM decided that I should now gain some levels because of how much adventuring I've gone on with the party, but I have no idea what classes I should take.

What class should I take 6 levels in if I'm a succubus with slightly improved attributes? Pazio only.

>>51539412
Wizard, sorceress, bard or rogue. Only ones fitting for a succu, desu w u fampai-kun

>>51539412
Paladin

>>51539400
Use a high crit weapon, power attack, furious focus. Kill things dead. Mirror image if you might take some hits. Buy a rod of quicken when you can, and play a race that has a tail to hold it so you can swift-action-cast your spells on yourself as buffs.

Enjoy playing one of the most powerful "martial" classes.

>>51539412
>my character got captured.
>we decided that I could play as the Succubus that our sorcerer controls
Storytime that shit.

>>51535058
Do bonus from class skills count as ranks?

>>51539400
Everything about Kyton screams high dex build of some sort

>>51539360
That actually sounds pretty brutal. Two full arcane casters that can pretty much shut down anything that's not immune to sleep and paralysis automatically.

>>51539455
No. Why would they?

>>51539412
Rogue 1, sorcerer 4, (accomplished sneak attacker) arcane trickster

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>>51536179
>those choir boys in Consecrated Chorist doc
No wonder Vatican has to explain themselves so often.

>>51539510
>The Gelgamek vagina is three feet wide and filled with razor sharp teeth! Do you really expect us to have sex with them?!

>>51539493
In 3.5 you'd start 1. level with up to 4 on a class skill. Isn't Pathfinder meant class skill bonus meant to simulate that.

>>51539550
It's a bonus, not additional ranks.

>>51539550
It's meant to simulate that without the overcomplicated explanation that you get 4x the ranks at level 1 and your max ranks are level+3, but that still doesn't change the fact that it's a bonus not actual skill ranks. The +3 from class skill is no more a skill rank than the associated ability modifier. Pre-reqs for feats and PrCs have been adjusted with that in mind.

>>51539563
>>51539582
Well, my argument was that it was skills ranks in 3.5 but I guess now it isn't.

>>51539427
>Wizard
My int is good but not that good, and I don't think that my way behind casting will be much use.
>sorceress
I would just be like the sorcerer, but weaker.
>bard
OOOohhhhh. I didn't think of this one. This will probably be the one I go for. A singing succubus is cute.
>rogue
Maybe, but we have an investigator already.

>>51539428
The party is neutral, with a strong lean toward chaotic and evil. That wouldn't go over well.

>>51539502
...Could you explain how that would work?

>>51539453
There isn't much too it. Our sorcerer used planar binding on a succubus, then used a lot of spells to bring her attributes and saves low (bestow curse, unfulfillable lesser geas, eniveration, touch of idiocy), then made an extremely one-sided "deal" with her. He has her true name and everything.

Later, my character got knocked out in a really tough fight we had to run from, and they weren't able to get close enough to touch me when teleporting out. So now some Chileax nobles have her somewhere where we can't scry her.

>>51539609
Indeed it's not, BUT if you port a 3.5 PRC to pathfinder, you should reduce the skill rank prereqs by 3 to match the PF skill system. It's the same level and number of rank purchases if you do that.

What are some good house rules to make guns the weapon of choice for melee characters who can't get into reach right now?

>>51539664
give'em a double-barrel something; shotgun or pistol. good ammo.

at higher levels guns are incredibly accurate due to resolving against touch-AC; this makes them vastly preferable to a crossbow or bow IF all you'll do is use it maybe once a fight on your way there. You do need/want an actual gunner in the party to maintain (especially misfires) them and craft'em cheap, but it works.

Things is though, like any weapon category they're not touching at all; melees won't have deadly aim, etc, etc to go with it. Still, may as well do 4d8 instead of a less accurate 1d10+str.

The hardest part is trying to offer the rest of the party such an option whether in or out of character without them getting massively offended OOC because you're "telling them how to play" and they "don't like guns/range/anythingbutthesekatanas/etc"

>>51539412
Antipaladin, bloodrager, slayer, vigilante to add a few options to those already mentioned.

>>51539664

Make them simple instead of exotic and introduce advanced firearms if you want more people to use them

>>51539664
Full action reload, but double the damage dice. Now they are a good weapon to use and drop, and dangerous when given to peasants in large numbers. Make them simple too.

>>51539728
Even with the non-proficiency, by level 6-8 they're more accurate with'em than with non-touch weapons anyways. Introducing the advanced ones is always a good idea though.

>>51539740

I figured if you wanted non-gunslingers to use them the best bet was to make them simple. Or martial if you really want but to me guns should be simple. Anyone should be able to use them but only gunslingers should be about to do all the fancy hardcore stuff

>>51539549
I am not sure I follow you.

>>51539794
Southpark. One of the members of the roman catholic church (whose 'use' of choir-boys is not just 'endemic' but actual standard-operating-procedure) are the alien Gelgamek, whose entire reason for fucking young boys is that quote up there about women.

>>51539664
Bring enemies closer

>>51539664

This is the best fix I have found for firearms in PF

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HjpGEt8q2m32j8QuwHmmwU1BlECU9oqBVJ5GPeiZCVo/edit

>>51539843

Well, it does make them 'Bows but worse'. Which I suppose it technically a step up but it also makes them less unique.

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>>51539843
>It's mostly nerfs, except for getting dex to damage from the start
>but it's mostly nerfs
>even the doubles get magic damage and other things that previously hit with both taken away and applied just once, while even manyshot applies flaming or the +x enhancement bonus twice

what the fuck, dude. what the fuck.

>>51539966
Nerfs automatic too; single increment instead of full length, because lines must always be worse than cones it seems.

It does reduce misfires, but it does nothing for reloads at all, and thus nothing for the fire rate. In fact it adds a handful of "slow-firing".

>>51539934
>>51539966

Like I said, it is the best I have found. It smooths out the useless feeling that misfires give and it is not you have to hit touch AC, something that was broken to begin with.

Firearms in general are in a bad state in PF.

/pfg/ we need to talk. Is it time to throw up our hands and stop using high OP archers as our baseline for whether or not a fighting style is any good? I mean, we don't use high OP wizards as our basis for class balance, do we?

>>51539966
>>51539966
This is why you don't believe anything /tg/ says about balance.

>>51540016
See above.

>>51540003
>you have to hit touch AC, something that was broken to begin with.
Top kek, bruh.

>>51535568
I like you, you're ok

>>51540003

Touch AC wasn't really remotely broken.

>>51540003
hitting touch is the entire point of that document. the rest are minor concessions to make it seem as though it was a fix and not a massacre.

Now, technically I've always felt that it should resolve against flatfoot AC rather than touch; they're hard to dodge, but a crossbow's got much more penetration than the early guns (not modern-day ones obviously). But this is a series of nerfs for gun using classes, disguised.

>>51540034

>>51540026

>>51540054

That's not really an argument against the statement.

>>51540016
>High op
Deadly aim, manyshot, rapid shot is bog fucking standard.

>>51540063
In fact it's technically just two links.

How is touch AC not broken? Most enemies barely have one if they have one at all. The only reason it was implemented in the first place was so wizards with their 1/2 bab could hit things with their spells

I want to make the most campaign-wrecking sorcerer possible to prove a point to my DM.

My current plan is arcane bloodline sorcerer. At level 16 with a robe of arcane heratige I can cast wish from a ring of three wishes for the high cost of a 3rd level spell slot.

Is there really a need for anything else?

>>51540016
>the basic characteristics of the weapon plus the basic, blatantly obvious, core-book-from-the-start feats that basically scream "this is ranged feat" is high-OP

So should we throw up our hands and stop using a BAB 20 with Power Attack and a 2h sword as well, then, for melee, since it's so obviously a deep and complicated niche that no one would have figured out without guides here?

>>51540075
For the same reason magic missile isn't particularly good spell. Being able to reliably hit doesn't matter if you're doing mediocre damage despite it.

How do I become the prettiest princess in Pathfinder?

Where should I be from? What ethnicity? What city? Classes, and attributes?

>>51540110

Then how do we fix firearms and crossbows?

>>51540075

Because attack values rise much, much faster than AC does. You become increasingly less likely to miss against comparable foes as you rise in levels even without it. In addition, firearms only did that in the first range increment and firearms universally have shitty range increments.

Heck, the document doesn't even remove touch AC in general. It goes 'Only gunslingers may have it'. These gun rules also get silly as fuck with any class that gets a non-dex stat to damage as now they are stacking 2x stat on damage.

>>51540110
>dex to damage
>easy access to extra attacks
>mediocre damage
Off yourself.

>>51540075
Well, with the reload times (that document does nothing there), cost(that document does nothing there), damage values (that document does nothing there), and several small drawbacks (that document helps a bit there), hitting touch-AC with guns isn't.

Effectively what this means is guns are otherwise so shit that BY being able to hit with 95% accuracy every shot by mid-high levels, your actual DPR is STILL lower than what a bow with half the optimization cost and effort will pull off.

>>51540126
>iterative attacks always hit
You are 100% stupid.

>>51540110
But because it is an automatic hit, it cannot do lot of damage because then there would be no fucking reason or rhyme to it.
That is why it is a broken mechanic. Because it has no design space at all.

>>51540137
YOU CANNOT DESIGN A GAME AROUND FUCKING DPR

>>51540127

>easy acess to extra attacks

What? Not only did this not help reloads at all, it decided to turn revolvers into a full around action to reload. This has LESS ability to rapid fire than before.

>>51540122
Remove rapid reload as a feat tax and allow crossbows to get str to damage.

There needs to be an easier way to get gun twirling than a relatively unknown grit feat and an easier way to get dual wielding.
>>51540116
Qadira has loads of trade princesses and you get delicious brown skin.

>>51540126
>In addition, firearms only did that in the first range increment and firearms universally have shitty range increments.
This is a point most people in the TOUCH AC OP camp miss. If you're using a gun within its first range increment you're likely well inside the murder radius of what you're shooting at and it is likely going to do much more damage to you than you are to it.

>>51540162
WHY NOT? JUST BECAUSE IT HURTS YOU FEESFEES?

>>51540137
>Effectively what this means is guns are otherwise so shit that BY being able to hit with 95% accuracy every shot by mid-high levels, your actual DPR is STILL lower than what a bow with half the optimization cost and effort will pull off.
You are factually wrong. Very very wrong.

>>51540164
You need to read the rules again and stop talking until you know what they say.

>>51540177
what the fuck are feesfees

>>51540162
if 90% of your class features boil down to "do more damage" then yeah, DPR is a fair way to evaluate your class

>>51540116
Make her mother a chelish princess and her father a mwangi chieftain.

>>51540193
This is not a fucking MMO

>>51540162
The class is designed to do exactly one thing, and the thing is "kill stuff with guns". There's shit all that has anything to do with anything else besides "kill stuff with guns".

So you'll have to forgive us when we try to take a look at how well it actually kill stuff with guns.

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>>51540191
Or...

Or......

If people want to use guns, they can play a game that's built around guns.

>>51540209

[BLACKED]

>>51540162

You can, however, design weapons around DPR.

>>51540180

Ok, quote the rule that says they are faster to reload? As I just ran through there with a search of 'Reload' and there was nothing to make them faster. You still need to deal with all the bullshit hoop jumping that you normally do and full round on revolvers makes them slower than they were before.

>>51540214
Tell that to the PF devs. They're the ones shitting out classes that get nothing but combat features.

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>"bawww my water gun fighters"
>mfw

>>51540235
It's like fucking photoshop for IRL

>>51540173

Yeah. This is a serious problem for my Gun Witch spellburst savant.

Yay touch AC and +Wis to damage. Oh wait, to get that I need to be within 20ft of the guy with the fuckoff sword. I'm gunna be in melee next turn.

>>51540240
thats cos you are still meant to roleplay the non combat shit
>but wait, let me just pull my disparity car-
no

>>51537437
>every game is a gestalt, weeb/furry shitfest with forced 3pp

Yeah...great.

>>51540263
God help you if the creature is bigger than medium size and/or has reach.

>>51540239
You not knowing how the rules work is not my problem.

Gunslingers suffer early game, but are easily the most powerful class possible in terms of "HP damage delivered without being a caster".

It's an awful class in general. Terribly designed.

>>51540263
Just cast Fly.

Who is your absolute favorite non-meme NPC from an AP?

Mine's Oleg.

>>51539843

Entertainingly, this makes guns rather backwards for what people want out of them. It takes them from 'A weapon that an untrained guy can use to hit a knight' to 'A weapon that rewards people with very high stats'.

>>51537521
>has to intentionally commit an evil act to fall.

Why don't people actually know this?
At best he'd need to atone for that....

>>51540295
me am gm
me say you fall now

>>51540295
Because GMs are dicks.

>>51540264
Which doesn't have the first thing to do with the class itself.

>>51540287
Ameiko

>>51537997
Summoner fluffing his eidolon/summons as undead and all of his magic as necromancy.

>>51540284

>You not knowing how the rules work is not my problem.

You can't just declare people wrong and then refuse to back it up when people ask how they are wrong.

This isn't also purely about gunslingers. This is about firearm rules and these shitty houserules.

>>51540313
i dont care about guns
im killing you

>>51540295
I really love how people seem to think that a paladin's deity is gleefully sitting there hoping for him to fall.

"Oh, he didn't wash his hands after going to the bathroom time for TRUMPETS" -Iomede

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>>51540287
>APs
>Having decent NPCs without heavily rewriting the crap that was put in there

>>51540340
>being this unable to pick your favorite turd

>>51540340
Ssshhh
Let them keep their innocence their GM put hard work to build up

>>51540340

Most of the NPCs are actually well-written, at least written well enough to work.

Kingmaker has consistently excellent NPCs, which has always confused me.

>>51540287
The Red Mantis assassin who wants a baby pterodatyl.

>>51540287
Lonjiku Kaijitsu

>>51536110
The android app pathbuilder is nice, if you only wanna use paizo material

>>51540122
Well here's a preliminary set of ideas, how I'd do it. Needs tweaking, but it's at least a start.
http://pastebin.com/X4aQjSt7

>>51540162
You have to balance the values of weapons and damage-dealing classes around DPR (thus not just damage but also armour and %hit rates) and HP, because those are literally the factors combat is built around.

It's like you're asking not to design hockey around the fact that there's fucking ice. It's fucking retarded. Your entire comment is fucking retarded.

>>51540287
Mine is Hoshbagh.
A female otyugh occultist (tome eater) 10 which works both as a sage and a merchant NPC.

>>51540324
>you can't
Actually I fucking can, because it's not my fucking problem. Go read the god damn rules yourself.

Guns in general are terribly designed and awful, until you can get dex-to-damage with them and free action reloads and make them never misfire in which they become bullshit damage machines that never miss and shouldn't exist.

If you want to bitch about the gun rules, then go ahead, but "they can't kill things" isn't the problem.

>>51539738

I suggested full action reload + 3d8 damage the other day and /pfg/ told me it was terrible and I "understood nothing" go kill myself etc

>>51540325
*don't
*I'm

>>51540388

>>51540026

>>51540388
>What if I just made guns into siege weapons?
"That's retarded."
>wtf i hate /pfg/ now

>>51540284
Now I suppose you're going to show us a gun user that can massively outdamage a well built archer, in a way that CANNOT be improved by simply equipping an adaptive longbow and swapping that reload feat for manyshot?

Because you're going to have to back your words with that.

>>51540388
But that's because you understand nothing and should go kill yourself. >>51539738 on the other hand, that man's a true genius!

>>51540302
>>51540308

Rule 0 was a mistake.

>>51539843

Yeah, this is fucking shit. Touch AC isn't the fucking problem you idiot.

>>51538877
Still level sorcerer since spells are nice?

>>51540409
>Because you're going to have to back your words with that.
This is buildposter, he doesn't actually back up his words with facts. That's everybody else's job.

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>>51540340
Fuck that series is cute. Like, nothing's fucking happening but I still kinda go "daawwww.

>>51540409
On it. I don't call myself buildposter for nothing.

I could do it with trench fighter, but I will do it with the standard gunslinger to prove a point.

>>51540415
Actually it is about 50% of the problem.

>>51540426
>builds aren't facts
k.

>>51540438
The fact that you don't understand the basics of proving a point isn't my problem.

>>51540415

Rules I'm playing with right now:

>Sling 1d4 damage, 18-20 2x crit, free action reload
>Longbow 1d8 damage, 20 x3 crit, free action reload
>Heavy Crossbow 2d8 damage, 18-20 2x crit, move action reload
>Musket: 2d12 damage, 20 x3? 4? crit, full round action reload

Guns have no misfire, target normal AC, etc.

Other houserules I have give everyone vital strike for free

>all this talk of DPR and not sucking in combat
>implying all your classes won't just sit on their thumbs while the full caster solos the encounters. Boy are you guys sure gonna feel silly wasting all that time on your sheets when the wizard just steamrolls everything with a single spell.

>>51540378
DnD was never meant to be refined
Each edition has always been merely a wave of new content to sell
Even Paizo knows this, they will gladly print more books but will never actually remake a book.

>>51540384
If it's not your problem then why are you so buttfrustrated?

>>51540438
Buildpost or stoppost

>>51540480
On it. This shit takes time though. ETA an hour or so.

>>51540474
>implying all your classes won't just sit on their thumbs while the full caster solos the encounters. Boy are you guys sure gonna feel silly wasting all that time on your sheets when the wizard just steamrolls everything with a single spell.

You need a not shit GM.

>>51540475
Well, 3.5 did refine 3.0, and as 3.5 aged, wotc realized 'wow we did some stupid shit' and released shit like Unearthed Arcana and far more balanced casting systems.

If one looked at the twilight years of 3.5, one could mistake it for a decent game.

>>51540388

I wouldn't do with 'Kill yourself' but it does have serious issues.

Pathfinder already has a serious issue with level 1 being rusty dagger shanktown. A weapon that will 1 shot most PCs until about level 3 only makes that even worse.

In addition, once you get iterative attacks then making use of those attacks becomes the core focus for characters. A lot of your characters accuracy and functionality comes from being able to use magic weapons to deal with DR or incorporeal foes(Or just get enchantments). A weapon that is so slow to reload that you need to drop it and pull up a new one to fire a second shot works very badly with the magic item economy.

So you end up with a weapon that you are paying a lot of money for a single shot/battle with while the archer gets to make multiple attacks every turn with the bow.

>>51540388
it does show a severe lack of understanding of how damage increases in this game.

A single, say, 5d8 attack, with a full round reload, means you're basically doing 22 damage plus your bonuses, every OTHER round.

That's actually the biggest problem with siege weapons in pathfinder: by like level 10 the average adventurer - whether archer or guy-with-sword, can actually hit significantly harder than that ballista or light cannon or battering ram, AND do so more than every other turn (in fact, many times a turn).

Even if it's 5d8 base damage, that's 6d6 for purposes of growth, so even an armory of the conqueror build would get you to at most about 32d6 every other round. That's not great at very high levels even if once a round (112 average), really really bad if every other turn, and only gets okay with greater vital strike x4'ing it... but even then that won't be spectacular, just, viable.

And viable will be in a way that GMs, paizotards, and generally most people fucking hate: a single massive hit that decapitates basically any great wyrm on the spot... leading to the typical "it's op, it oneshots bosses" complaints too.

And then the next round you reload, which is kinda boring, OR it turns out you did all this with infinite ammo/no-load in some way (there are many ways) at which point you're doing pretty damn good damage, but very very much a one-trick pony with no depth but a lot of build invested into this. which means it's not that fun for the wielder either.

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>>51540504
Well you work with what you got, not what you want.

>>51540519
In that's the case then why the fuck are you playing a martial? At least gish it up senpai.

>>51540518
>siege woes
not to mention without anyone else helping.
That's 2-4 people crewing some of those damn things for that output.

Just fucking lance-charge the poor gate, it'll break a lot faster.

>>51540544
It was a serious mistake to stat siege engines as weapons at all. They need to be treated as cinematic set pieces, not like PC weapons.

THE REASON WHY SOME PEOPLE THING GUNS ARE TERRIBLE AND WHY SOME THINK GUNS ARE OVERPOWERED

IS BECAUSE GUNS DO RELIABLE DAMAGE EARLY ON DUE TO TOUCH AC BUT SUFFER FROM NOT BEING ABLE TO USE ITERATIVE ATTACKS WITHOUT HEAVY FEAT INVESTMENT ALONG WITH LACK OF DEX TO DAMAGE

THAT, AND THE ABSURD COST AND MISFIRE RULES

IF YOU WANT TO MAKE GUNS GOOD, TRY THIS: GUNS CAN GET A NEW ENHANCEMENT:
>OVERLOAD (+1 enhancement equivalent): YOUR +X GUN DOES NOT GET +X ENHANCEMENT ATTACK BONUS TO YOUR GUNS FOR THIS ROUND BUT INSTEAD YOUR GUN DOES +XD6 (or whatever base dice your gun uses) DAMAGE INSTEAD
>YOU CAN VITAL STRIKE WITH THIS, AND IT STACKS MULTIPLICATIVELY

THERE, GUNS CAN OUTPUT HUGE DAMAGE, YOU DON'T ROLL MORE DICE THUS AVOIDING MULTIPLE MISFIRE CHANCES, YOU DON'T NEED TO BURN MULTIPLE FEATS TO RELOAD FAST AND TRY TO STRUGGLE TO GET 4 HANDS TO SHOOT MULTIPLE GUNS AND RELOAD AT THE SAME TIME

IT ALSO AVOIDS THE CLUSTERED SHOTS PROBLEM AND COST OF BULLETS

>>51540565
Hey, this shouting guy might be onto something!

>>51540565
What really caused the "it's overpowered" thing is actually APs and PFS.

In a lot of cases "harder encounters" are composed of something that maybe has one more level, but whose main thing is that it's more heavily armored. Like, "the knight leader has a breastplate, not just studded leather".

The gun doesn't even notice the difference.

It's basically the same people/situations that caused the crane-wing nerf.

>>51540565
Does Abundant Ammunition not work for bullets?

Does Unseen Servant not reload a firearm for you?

>>51540622
it doesn't work for powder, or alchemical cartridges, so you still have to load it - in fact it would slow things down more since you'd have to now get the bullet out and then pack it back in with powder...

>>51540540
Because, anon. I have morals, anon! Standards! Ethics!

When I see a trio of hambeasts fighting over the last Krispy Kreme donut in the box I don't stop and offer to buy them another box, rewarding their bad life choices. I keeps on walking.

>>51540587
Actually I just shat the idea out without costing it or calculating bonus DPR or anything. The main problems of guns having serious problems with iteratives being hard to use due to longer reloads AND making misfires happen more often, so the obvious thing is to avoid this altogether. No idea if it actually calculates nicely, though.

>>51540622
>needing a caster to be viable
not good class design. Also Abundant Ammo doesn't work to speed up reloading because it doesn't reproduce alchemical effects (which also increases misfires). I'd rather make guns more unique from bows within the framework of what's wrong with them, not just bypass the problem with magic to make them more like bows.

People just want to flaunt their system mastery
World turns around

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Not going to change anyone's mind: gunslinger edition.

Here is the damage curve for my shit-built gunglinger.

I only spent 1/2 of his wbl and like 5 feats.

THe average AC for a CR12 monster is 26.2, while the average touch AC is 12.1

SO yea, the gunglinger, when built like shit, out-damages the bow fighter by almost 30%.

IF you wanted to make the build good:
>musket master 5 / inquisitor X. Judge and murder.
>Trench fighter x, dual wield guns for TWF bullshit.

Both of those builds will do at least 15% more damage than my shit-build, whit the fighter doing close to 50% more due to weapon spec, dueling gloves, etc.

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>>51540749
Here is the shit-built gunslinger.

Poop succubus?

Whaaaa

>>51540518

>every other round

But they should only be using it once per combat

>>51540749
>SO yea, the gunglinger, when built like shit, out-damages the bow fighter by almost 30%.

Your own chart says otherwise.

>>51540791
>32d6 only once per combat
The average damage for 32d6 is 112 damage, anon. At level 10 that's pretty bad.

>>51540813
Do I really need to explain touch AC vs AC to you?

>>51540818

That almost one shots every enemy at that level

>>51540818
That's about par for the course at level 10.

>>51540818
>>51540842

>>51540026

>>51540842
>>51540845
Not for every other round it's not.

>>51540818
>hurf durf my homebrew class does better its from my favorite anime

>>51540845

Anything past around 60 damage at level 10 is actually too high

An enemy of your CR shouldn't be instantly destroyed by half your party, expending no resources

>>51540869
Ehh, but going your normal power attack, weapon focus build on a full bab class is gonna do that by like level 6

>>51540475
They do have different printings though. Like in first and second printing of the core rulebook Arcane Archer is only elf and half-elf but after that they removed the restriction

>>51540866
>I can't work out the damage of a core charging pouncing two handed raging barbarian with 20 in strength, power attack over the sound of me gargling my own cock

>discussion about ranged shit made me go back and check manyshit
>mfw manyshot doesn't have a goddamn penalty to attack rolls for using it
>mfw for some reason I thought it did in fact impose a penalty for using it

Well, guess it's time to just pour all my fucking money into the party archer's longbow next time there's downtime. I don't know where I got the penalty thing from, maybe I was remembering something from a more fucked-over combat style.

>>51540781
She's not even a succubus we've been over this.

>>51540906

Level 10 core fighter is going to do like 4d4+22 damage with a Vital Strike, 2d4+22 x2 on a full attack

>>51540956

Many shot should just be removed, or all the added damage feats should not apply to the extra hits, meaning it's just an extra 1d8

>>51540509
DnD designers tend to admit that you can make better rules, but the time investment is rarely worth it
They keep DnD the same simply because "it just werks"

>>51541024

In d20 modern, guns did 2dX damage.

Double Tap made it 3dX, with a -2 hit penalty. Burst Fire made it 4dX, with a -4 hit penalty.

>>51541024
Didn't it used to be only a single attack-action thing that didn't work with full attacks? Like, to give archers something to do when they have to reposition? It should go back to being that.

>>51541060

Vital strike for bows basically?

Personally I find there are way too many ways to add damage, I don't know how it would change balance, but I'm partial to the idea of simply removing power attack/deadly aim and giving scaling AC alongside BAB, basically full BAB would give "good" save progression to AC, so at BAB +20 you get +12 AC.

This helps shore up horrible touch AC and balance out accuracy being too high later on.

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I'm playing in a game where the DM is giving us a free gestalted prestige class of our choice. I'm playing an Oracle, and for my prestige class I chose Evangelist- that means I get Aligned Class, but there's no point in taking it with Oracle because I'm taking Oracle levels side-by-side with Evangelist. So I needed to take a single level dip in another class or else I'd be wasting the Aligned Class feature, and I picked Sorcerer.

So we just reached 2nd level, and I'm taking my Sorc level. When we reach level 6, the Evangelist-gestalt will kick in, and the level after that Aligned Class will start going. But until then, I'll only have one Sorc level, which means just two 1st level spells known (on the Sorc side). I know one of them will be Color Spray, but do you guys have a suggestion for what the other one should be? At the moment I'm thinking either Charm Person or Grease, but am open to other ideas. I offer swanky-looking rings in exchange for advice.

My current Oracle spells are Cure Light Wounds, Murderous Command, and Bless, FYI.

>>51535058
My players have yet to fight a dragon, however we are playing Dragon's Demand. Very fun!

>>51540772
>>51540749
What did you use for the bow fighter? Keeping in mind that dueling gloves are very good there too (better than bracers of archery though they stack, if you've got the weapon training bit)

Can anyone list what Archons are original to Pathfinder, as opposed to reposted from 3.5?

>>51540869
Anything below 63 at level 10 is non-viable.
It only starts getting "too high" at DPR 127+ at level 10; 126 being what it takes to one-round equal CR.

Under 68 also means you can no longer one-round a CR-4 mook, of which one would be facing rather large numbers if they're the encounter. Below 52 you fail to kill a CR-5 which means spending your turn on damage makes you a liability unless no one else needs anything else done at all.

>>51540991
x3 due to haste.

22 str (+6), +2(4 with dueling gloves) weapon training, power attack -3/+6 and a +2 weapon:

With a 2-hander that becomes 2d6+24, usually 3d6 from a bigger blade somehow (there's spells, not only powerful-build). Average 34 per hit already, and that's pretty effortless build-wise.

34x3 is already 102. You're not really optimized and are already basically in the good zone for damage, but well above what you stated would be too much.

>>51541282

70 damage is enough to one shot kill the average expected enemy CR 6 and lower

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>>51540869
>>51541282
>mfw at level 10, nobody in the party manages to consistently break even 40~ DPR without a crit
>mfw I have seen entire turns where 3 people full attack while hasted and only one hit goes through from any of them

"Play a support-based character" I said. "Don't hog the spotlight" I said. "You don't need to always be the damage numbers guy" I said.

>>51541354
Sure, if you were doing 70 damage consistently instead of sometimes rolling high and sometimes rolling low.

Too much kill is overkill only if your're not consistently 1SKing enemies more than 50% of the time.

>>51541330

You're including buffs from other party members (which is their contribution to damage, not yours) and non core materials (I said core fighter), and higher than 15 starting str (standard array)

>>51541354
... uh, yes? that should be obvious from what I said about a level 10 and CR-4?
In fact, 68 or 69 DPR will generally do it in as well. BELOW 68 will on average not be enough to do that CR6 anymore.

63 is half of a CR10's (mean) HP, as that's 126.

>>51541380

Actually never mind, I should add 2 to the str score I was using

>>51541380
stats go up with levels and equipment, you should have +4 to your total strength by level 10 if you're a melee strength-based fighter. That's just a 16 with the racial, your two level-ups and a +2 belt.

THAT was a fucking core fighter. Weapon training, power attack, a +2 fucking sword.. and haste you get from your fucking boots, they're 12k for ten rounds a day free-action toggle.

None of this is 3pp, none of this is using other partymembers, and if it WAS partly coming from partymembers, you've been building shitty indeed, because that's STILL just 102 and not 126.

>>51540366
Which one is that one from?

>>51540287
Probably Cressida Kroft, honestly.

>>51541470

>15 + 2 (race) + 2 (level up) + 2 (belt)
>+8 from str
>+9 power attack
>+2 weapon
>+2 weapon training
>+2 weapon specialization
>2d4 falchion

2d4+23

Boots of Speed and Gloves of Dueling are both from Ultimate Equipment

>>51541374
Anon fuming in the corner as others play "WOW DONT THESE SUCKERS NOW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS GAME!"
"I COULD KILL ALL OF BESTIARY ALONE"
"MY FEET HURT"

>>51541601
Anon, it's one thing to autism over damage. It's another to spend 5 turns in combat with random trash mooks because nobody can hit anything.

>>51541587
Still core fighter. Not one archetype in there.

>>51541540

Serpent's Skull!

>>51540866
Hey, so you know Fighter? You know, normal-ass fighter with, let's say a greatsword?

Yeah, at level 10 he's pulling out 75 damage per round with LITERALLY NO INVESTMENT WHATSOEVER. The only thing he has is Power Attack and his Weapon Training; no other damage buffing feats, no magical items, nothing. It only goes higher if you put any thought into it (Mutation Warrior to get Strength Mutagens, Gloves of Dueling to improve your Weapon Training, a goddamn +3 to your greatsword like you should have at this point, Weapon Specialization because you can afford it at this point, etc.)

If you're not doing AT LEAST an average (not a minimum, please not this, but an AVERAGE which is much easier to reach) of 75 damage per round as a primary damage dealer with a full attack or full-attack-equivalent (Haste+Shocking Grasp Magus, Manuever User, Blaster Sorcerer, Elven Curve Blade UnRogue, etc), you're not keeping up with what is quite literally the most baseline combatant.

>>51541587
What book is haste in?

>>51541626
MOTHERFUKCING THIS. Fucking stormwinds.

"muh, the combat is supposed to be the next three entire sessions, you're making it unfun for everyone by AoEing the trash-mobs even though it won't touch the two bosses"