A lot of D&D settings or campaigns I've played in have

>>51520034
/pol/, pls go.

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>>51520034
ftfy

>>51520086
There's nothing inherently /pol/ about anarcho-capitalism. It's been around since the 50s.

>>51520034
>If this is the case, why not go all the way?

What does that even mean.

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>>51521316
I think he means why not have a setting where there's Ancapistan somewhere, a location with no government basically. Like Extropia in Eclipse Phase.

>>51520141
The 50s were inherently /pol/

>>51520034
>If this is the case, why not go all the way?

Because those settings and campaigns you played are generic, identikit stories based on airport fantasy novels. They only look like anarcho-captalistic paradises because your worldview conditioned you to see them that way.

>>51521481
I'd take an ancap paradise over more of the standard cyberpunk "corporations are EVIL!" stuff we constantly see everywhere else.

>>51520034
An interesting point. They usually are run down, poor shitholes dominated by roving bands of literal murdering monsters.

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Every fantasy setting I can think of has roads. Checkmate OP.

>>51520034
>If this is the case, why not go all the way?
Because most of that stuff is only the case to make things easier on GMs, and the economics of the settings are generally poorly thought-out and don't make too much sense when you look at them in detail.
That said, you now made me want to run a game where tolls and taxes are a regular occurrence. It'd be a decent money-sink to stop players obtaining more money than they know what to do with.

>>51522896
Actually, in an ancap society, corporations would likely bankroll roads, since they're useful but they'd ALL have heavy tolls

>>51522974
Surely they'd be more likely to have their own private roads rather than bankrolling public ones?

>>51520034
Medieval tax collectors were bandits who bid against each other for the exclusive right to steal on behalf of the king. The contract would then go to the band who promised that they could bring in the most gold, and their payment consisted of any extra gold they managed to steal.

Chances are the average D&D player has killed hundreds of tax collectors.

>>51522974
In an actual ancap society there would be no such things as corporations since those are a construct of the state to legitimize tax-reduction schemes for the oligarchs

All businesses in a true ancap society would be sole proprietorships or partnerships

>>51523040
Gets be private but can be used publically for a fee

>>51520034
Because anarcho-capitalism is excellent to model settings where people kill each other for money, steal stuff, roam tombs, and generally act like murderhobo.

If you can't see why that's bad for real life, then you're a faggot.

Is there anyone who genuinely believes in ancap ideology? Most of the ancap memes I've seen are making fun of the concept, and I can't wrap my head around how anyone would think it was a good idea.

>>51523133
I mean, Anarchism as a whole fundamentally doesn't work. Humans organize themselves into structures of government by default.

>>51523133
As a libertarian, yes, there are a whole bunch of ancaps and they try very hard to either be accepted as libertarians because
>"we want pretty much the same thing, the night watchman state is a good stepping stone for us"
Or try to convince libertarians that they are ancaps in denial.

It's idiotic. We don't want the same thing and the last thing libertarians need when people say "but that will lead to anarchy and chaos" is people within our own group who yell "great, that's what we want!"

They would probably have better luck trying to cooperate with the anarchy-syndicalists. After all, don't they want pretty much the same thing? Both groups want to destroy the government and then replace it with new institutions which the syndicalists call communes and the capitalists call corporations.

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>>51521457
If you mean the 1450s, sure.

Actual 50s? IDK, they get mixed reviews.

We aren't paleocons, we are their logical conclusion.

>>51520034
Aren't swords a violation of the NAP?

>>51523350
>Aren't swords a violation of the NAP?

I would love for you to explain this one.

>>51522896
The upper left picture also fits into the lower right part.

>>51523133
Randians exist. And are very influental.

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AnCap stuff makes more sense in cyberpunk settings.

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Why don't Libertarians/Ancaps move to Somalia?

>>51520034
It's almost like your DM doesn't give enough of a shit to do things like that.

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>>51522896
Better version, midly censored for /tg/

>>51523043
>In an actual ancap society there would be no such things as corporations since those are a construct of the state to legitimize tax-reduction schemes for the oligarchs

>this is what ancaps actually believe
holy shit dude

>>51521444
Most lands in fantasy settings are already semi-Ancap because there may be a king claiming the land but he has neither the manpower or the resources to enforce shit on the fringes unless it's a pressing matter. In the vacuum we get murder hobos.

>>51520034
Murderhobos are cancerous as fuck, why would we want more of them?

>>51520034
It's legal to pay taxes through services or produce. I'd consider wiping out droves of monsters or toppling terrorists to be considered a public service.

>>51520034
>Not having your PCs be hounded by tax collectors.

Avoiding them can be an adventure all in itself.

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Has anyone run a game where the central government tried to tax PCs? How about an adventurer tax on the discovery of magic artifacts/treasure in dungeons existing on government-controlled land?

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>>51524256
Nobody there cares about taking NAPs.

>>51524470
That commie is a cutie.

>>51520034
The settings are feudal and the characters are vagabonds.

>>51524794
I've had the following:
Toll people fucking with the PCs by giving them confusing directions and charging toll fees several times.

Taxmasters offering "I've paid my taxes for [this year]" slips in return for services and silence.

Local tax collectors who don't have a death wish, not bothering the PCs.

Merchants offering the PCs better prices for their loot if they smuggle it into/out of a city so nobody needs to pay taxes.

Authority figures "gently persuading" the PCs to sell their goods in the right city, so the city can tax the shit out of the merchant.

And a few more I can't remember.

>>51524834
This

Peasants are taxed for a portion of the crops they produce - the PCs are not farmers and therefore do not pay tax.

>>51520034
Re: sales and clientele: The services the PCs offer are generally kept discreet as they are essentially black market deals. Neither the PCs nor their clients want the government or anyone else to aware of them.

Re: carte blanche to kill: PCs usually kill outlaws, which anyone is free to do, or wild beasts that are not considered game by the lord who holds the hunting rights. Should the PCs engage in poaching, or murder citizens, then they are of course breaking the law and are eligible for punishment.

I can only imagine it would end in slaughter if a GM actually introduced the realistic tolls anybody transporting goods would have to pay.

Which if the GM is doing his job and doesn't let them get away with murdering guards in front of dozens of witnesses will immediately derail the campaign.

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>>51524470
i'm conflicted.

>>51524470
That's gay, anon

>>51524794
I once ran a game that was basically seven samurais, except instead of bandits, it was tax collectors.
And some PCs were from the village it was set in, so basically, yes.

There mare be more or less laws, but the problem was law enforcement.

>>51524256
They could build a community on stilts in Saudi Arabia as Saudi law only is applicable a couple of hundreds of meters into the air.

I don't understand how anarcho-capitalism could ever result in anything other than corporate entities monopolizing everything, including force and then forming their own power structures and governments.

Am I missing something?

>>51523133
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DhWrS7WH74

>>51520034
>anarcho-capitalism resembles feudalism

makes ya think

>>51525261
No, you've got it anon. You just haven't drunk the kool-aid the ancaps seem to be sharing with commies

>hurr if humans were perfect this would work! It's totally a rational system

>>51525261
A lot of ancaps think monopolies are unnatural and wouldn't be that prevalent in a stateless society.
In a way they're right. I mean yes, many industries heavily favor the incumbent making entry hard, but the idea being pushed that you need big brother to protect you from the sociopath CEOs is an excuse to expand government power.
When it comes to force it's hard for security companies to justify punishing others for being security companies I guess.

The origin of the nation state is land, you gotta protect your clay, it's valuable. If you think swollen megacorps are going to go the same route as developing countries, do you really think they'll take the same path there? What use is there is binding people to you that feel no loyalty towards you?

>>51525431
Because they'd be dependent on the corporations for any semblance of a standard of living. Humans will naturally group together, they will naturally seek safety, and when a corporation is saying "Hey, come live in Corp City, we have running water and electricity and doctors and a militia to fight off the bears." what humans wouldn't go live there?

>>51525261
That's because anarcho-capitalism is a system that appeals to people who don't understand natural human tendencies. They're so ignorant about human history that they think government wasn't something that organically developed. As far as I can tell, they think that the human tendency to band together and form a hierarchy will somehow...go away if we dissolve the government. They're kind of dim like that.

>>51525431
>The origin of the nation state is land, you gotta protect your clay, it's valuable.

Meh, the origin of the medieval state were interdependantly guaranteed rights between quasi-state actors. Many of those dealt with land control simply because you need a lot of it to convert sunlight and water into enough of the actually useful shit you require for survival.

Nowadays multiple nations survive in being clearing-houses for virtual money.

>>51525586
It's the result of the proto-socialist and humanitarian heresies that lay at the core of the idea of the US being massaged by anti-socialist and racist propaganda for a couple of centuries.

The origins are even more obvious in the Sovereign citizen movement.

>>51525577
Okay, now assume it's easy to start your own corp city. That's the ancap mindset.
The water purification guys and the electrical companies are perfectly willing to provide their services to the rivals of their main customer and the founders have a set of marketable skills or resources to secure an equilibrium of import and export.
What's the benefit in trying to squash this start-up city? I guess they could try to buy it, but if the new city isn't a corporation they can just say 'no', we're independent. And even if they can buy them, why? It's not in a corps best interest to continuously expand, that only happens under narcissistic CEOs that want to have that notch on their belt.

>>51525431
>but the idea being pushed that you need big brother to protect you from the sociopath CEOs is an excuse to expand government power.
I think the plethora of competition law cases proves you wrong. Nature hates a vacuum and a dominant force will arise, so we might as well make sure said dominant force favors competition and low barriers to market entry.

Also
>sociopath CEOs
I'd call this a strawman if you weren't absolutely right
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/13/1-in-5-ceos-are-psychopaths-australian-study-finds/

>>51525824
It's naive to assume corporations would stay as they are instead of becoming pseudo-governments who have their own energy and agriculture and defense etc divisions.

What's stopping a megacorps from hiring mercs and declaring himself prince of the town or emperor?

>>51525767
God, I had actually forgotten that sovereign citizens were a thing. They may be the only people dumber than an anarcho-capitalist. At least the AnCaps realize the current system has to go before they can do whatever stupid shit they want with impunity.

>>51525884
You know, apple and android compete on the smartphone market and at the same time apple is androids greatest customer when it comes to microchips.
Often vertically integrated suppliers continue to lend services to other companies in order to keep the bottom line optimized.
If corp city doesn't have any ideological justification to rail against start-ups stealing customers and potential employees, why not co-operate to create optimal benefit for their shareholders? That's what companies care about.

>>51525586
The issue is not the anarcho in anarcho-capitalism. The issue is the capitalism.

If you don't regulate the natural urges for capitalist to amass capital, power, and then use it to amass even more capital and power, then you have a society where there is two classes:

- The slaves.
- The owners.

That is the natural result of any anarcho-capitalist society. Slaves and owners. A very slight middle class of people too important to be slave but not wealthy enough to be owners, but 95% of everyone either in one category or the other. Far more slaves than owners, of course.

Full anarchism can work, with enough determination, and in controlled environment. Full capitalism can't produce a healthy society.

>>51525894
self-interest

>>51526046
>full anarchism can work in a controlled environment
you're trying to get (you)s aren't you? I can't tell because there are real people talking about #laststagecapitalism all the time.

>>51526036
Please.

The goal to any corp is to gain monopoly of a market, to gain more money. That's how any corp works, in the mind of any reasonable individual.

That's how real world works. Startup are bought everyday by big companies, not because they are good or valuable, but because the big companies don't want concurrence.

Again, capitalism. Amassing capital to amass more capital.

Any anarcho-capitalist society will stabilize with 5 or 6 competing megacorps who control absolutely everything. That's the easiest way to amass capital, being everywhere at once.

>>51525894
That's not what corporations would do. They'd just increase in size and scope until they became the de-facto government of wherever they are based.

In out of the way places and small settlements, that's where you'd get warlords declaring themself king.

>>51526122
>that's where you'd get warlords declaring themself king.
Well, they will until the Exonmobil-Walmart alliance sends in its private army (sponsored by general dynamics) takes control of the town and imposes its specific set of laws, taxes and business guidelines.

>>51526093
Anarchy works in Valve, by example.

When the individuals are intelligent enough, and driven enough, in a controlled environment.

Capitalism don't. Pure capitalism is a nightmare, where you will be probably a slave working for minimum wage for some distant overlords.

Not a very far cry from the actual U.S (the nation of 'capitalism will solve all your problem'), mind you. But even worst.

>>51525894
>>51526122
i had this setting i played around with that could basically be summed up as "corporations = feudal states".

>weapons technology, medicine and transporation have advanced
>but at the same time infrastructure, civility and environmental health have regressed
>the USA landscape has been reduced to a vast wilderness, sparsely populated by unlawful tribes, militias and outlaws
>but at the same time, there are corporation owned cities that are very tightly guarded and highly advanced, at least if you're privileged enough to live in one as a free man
>most of the population is bound to serfdom for their local corporation, basically working for them as slaves
>the sewers have mutant alligators so if the PCs go there, they'll get chomped up

it was a good setting

>>51526046
Anarchy CANNOT WORK. Sorry, but the fatal flaw for anarchy has always been its inability to keep other people from forming governments. It is human nature to band together and form a hierarchy to enforce social order. Name one, just ONE society that didn't have SOME form of hierarchy inherent to it. Do you know why that is? It's because humans naturally seek to bring order to chaos, and the easiest way to find order is to have one person that's designated to call the shots.

>>51526221
Oh, you have to be kidding me. With all the shit that's on Steam, you want to tell me an uncontrolled environment is in our best interests? How many Greenlight projects turn out to be scams, just because Valve can't be assed to perform basic quality control.

Fuck me, took the bait

>>51526110
I have no response for this other than just saying it's not true.
Corps buy start-ups for their talent.
Plenty of industries have a constant entry of new players, making destroying the compeition a ridicilous game of whack-a-mole (and the premise is that ALL industries will work like that)
Capital is a means on end. Value is created using a combination of labour and capital (the more technology progresses the more important capital becomes compared to labour, which will eventually lead to a patrimonial-based society, this is not a consequence of capitalism but of the concept of ownership and personal agency itself, but I digress), businesses care about creating value for their stakeholders but growing too big creates infrstructural bloat and is bad for the stakeholders, stakeholders in a corporation are the stockholders and don't care about longterm risk, only the value increase over next quarter. A lot of ancaps will probably try to tell you how in a true ancap society there will be no corporations only family businesses and partnerships.

>>51526296
Anarchy works for Valve. Anarchy works for NASA. Anarchy worked for the Commune. Anarchy works in controlled environment, and for small test run.

I'm not arguing that it works perfectly, or it is the solution, or that it will solve any issue. Just that it can work sometimes, and pure capitalism simply can't. In 'Anarcho-capitalism', the weak link is capitalism, not anarchism.

>>51526221
>Anarchy works
>cites steam as an example
>unironically thinking that steam opening the floodgates was a positive thing

>>51525227
What

>>51526221
>Pure capitalism is a nightmare, where you will be probably a slave working for minimum wage for some distant overlords.

In a purely capitalist enviroment, the people who can buy work would have to conspire to keep wages down though. The situation we saw during the 19th century was the result of a particular legal regime rather than straigth up the result of market forces.

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>>51524470
well...that's a thing...

>>51526392
>C-Capitalism is weak, n-not anarchy, that's why capitalism hasn't catapulted society into technological advancement quicker than any other point in history

Here's the last (You) from me

>>51526110
Business analists are always advicing against the drive to mindlessly expand. They don't do this (just) because of antitrust laws. They do this because it's a bad idea.

A company is just a bunch of people trying to produce something you know. Imagine you're an adventuring party that ended the campaign by conquering your own small kingdom. Is it in your best interest to agressively expand the borders, because more farmers=more resources=bigger army=more expanding?
No, that's not creating optimal value. Empires are hard.

>>51526221
>Valve
>has total control of who can and who can't use their delivery platform
>Takes a huge cut of all profits from sales via that platform

When you start to apply this to things like building roads and providing a secure, accessible environment for commerce that cut of the profit starts to be called "tax" and the company that is providing those things starts to be called "government"

>>51526413
There is a tower restaurant in Saudi Arabia that can serve acohol because the law of the land has an upwards ceiling.

So a libertards city on stilts in Saudi Arabia would be an option and more feasible than the Sealands they're proposing. It'd put them under free US-protection and within easy reach of slaves as well.

>>51526375
>A lot of ancaps will probably try to tell you how in a true ancap society there will be no corporations only family businesses and partnerships.

That's incredibly, refreshingly naive. Do you live in our world?

Why would people stop?

You have your business. It makes money. Why would you stop growing? Why would you stop making more money? 'Grow big or go home', would you grow big, or go home?

Why would the psychopath next door stops himself from buying your enterprise to make more money? Why would he stops from buying another, and another, to have market monopoly? And decide the prices? And be the king of the town?

Why would Walmart, or Apple, stop trying to make even more money when suddenly they could buy whole town out of the blue? Why would they not buy armies to make even more money by controlling the lives of people? Why would they not simply decide to 'pay' their employees with foods and clothings, because they can?

If there is no laws, then the society will not stabilize with 'a lot of small companies everywhere'. The society will eventually stabilize with '3 companies that controls the entire lives of a third of America'. Not really text book anarchism, hum?

>>51526392
First, Valve is a company, so it would be ridiculous to assign a system of government to a corporation. Secondly, NASA is a government bureau, so it would be ridiculous to assign a system of government to it. Thirdly, the Commune was a miserable, tyrannical failure that ended for a reason. Fourth, one can be capitalist while also being a republic, whereas an anarchist society is not capable of representative government. Sorry, anarchism still loses.

>>51526487
How do you explain imperialism?

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>>51525824
>>51526415
Well now I want to play a game set in a light-hearted ancap setting and start my own city.

>>51526478
Not him but:
Yes and? That does not imply it's the ultimate thing.
Considering the massive inequalities and instabilities it produces, it pretty sure is not.

>>51526415
That only works if there is more work than workers. In short there has to be no automatization.
As we see in reality the market fucks wages downwards otherwise.

>>51526538
Vanity.
Also, they're all collapsed now.

So, what this thread has taught me is that Anarchists want the world to be DnD and think dismantling government would do that.

>>51524256
No state to keep them save.

>>51526552
Yeah, automatization decreases the value of your labour.
How about you do something about it?
If we try to consequently overvalue humans without giving them incentive to improve we're turning the value of human life itself into a bubble.
Bubbles pop.
Let's not do that. Socialism kills kiddos.

>>51526586
>Implying bubbles are bad.

You just don't earn enough.

>>51526504
And before you decide this is all Gedankenexperiment, this is basically what happened at the end of the Wild West era. Europe was thoroughly disgusted by how companies monopolized markets and owned entire towns, deciding prices, making the laws, and basically being a state within the state.

>>51526478
It depends on what you call successful, of course.

A society of slaves and owners is certainly efficient. Very efficient. We have nothing better than capitalism for sheer raw efficiency.

I wouldn't call it a successful society, but if you can bear to be a slave in it, then I guess it's a society that has successes, at least.

Strangely, a lot of people will prefer to live shitty lives and toil everyday as slave in everything but name in a society with success. Stockholm Syndrome, probably. When you live a sad life, at least you can console yourself thinking the CEO has a plane.

>>51526567
What I saw in this thread was people asking questions about ancap and then other people who don't like ancap answering them, telling them what they believe ancap is.

>>51526552
>implying the world would be any more equal under any other form of economics

w e w l a d

>>51526555
The US is still around. They are failing as we speak, but still.

After them I think China will try to play Empire.

Or maybe they fuck each other up in martial masturbation.

All in all: Imperialism is not dead at all, empires just rule via puppet states now instead of declaring everything their territory.

>>51526609
People don't mind working because the benefits they get from working satisfy their most base desires, safety, community, and stability.

>>51526610
I'm very curious as to what ancap actually is. Why don't you weigh in? Let's get an informed opinion.

>>51520141
Since forever, my dude.

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>>51520034
Did someone say ancap? See the goblins in warcraft.

>>51526613
>implying we get anywere if we stop thinking about options
>but muh holy market, my devine lord and saviour
Anon, once people from cenuries past are more forward thinking than you are, you have problem.

>>51526610
Yeah, that's not going to be a one-time thing.
People that hate capitalism REALLY hate it.
If you're genuinly interested in comments from a true believer you're going to have to seek them out in their safe spaces.

Friendly reminder that anarcho-capitalism is every bit as much a rainbows and unicorns fantasy as communism. Truly free markets can never exist, because in the absence of regulations conglomerations will form to force out competition and use their monopoly to force consumers to buy third-rate products at exorbitant prices with no alternative.

>>51522896
You don't have to be socialists to crowdfund expensive projects.

>>51526650
>implying I said any of that

Nigger, Capitalism has been the cause of our world's technological leaps, that much isn't arguable. Whether or not that means something else might be better in the future I have no fucking clue.

>>51526665
How brave of you to throw in your truth bombs on this rabid pro-ancap thread, how unpopular they might be in this so differently minded environment.

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>>51526586
>How about you do something about it?
Such as? Less people are needed for work. So work does not seem to work as defining action of life anymore.

>If we try to consequently overvalue humans without giving them incentive to improve we're turning the value of human life itself into a bubble.
>Bubbles pop.

Social democracy and strictly controlled capitalism worked well until market liberals started tearing it down.
Did not have anything to do with a "bubble".

And incentives for improvement only work as long as that improvement has a realistic use.
Of you can not get a job with your three degrees, because everyone else has more or has them from shinier schools, you are just as fucked as someone with none at all.

>Socialism kills kiddos.
Dankest meme. Pic related.

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>>51526693
I meant nothing else.
Then we can agree.

>>51526532
Anarchy works in controlled environments. Valve is a controlled environment: it's a corporation. NASA is a controlled environment: it's government bureau.

>Thirdly, the Commune was a miserable, tyrannical failure that ended for a reason.

Eh. You really don't know the first thing, do you? You poor, childish soul.

You can call the Commune many things, but it wasn't a tyranny and wasn't miserable. It was certainly inefficient as fuck, it had many, numerous issues, people only did what they wanted, which posed many other issues, the army was incredibly fragmented, orders weren't carried out, etc. But tyrannical and miserable? Eh. You made me chuckle, at least.

Seeing that people only did what they wanted, the tyrannical part is somewhat unfitting. Can't have a tyranny if people don't obey shit, mate.

And the Commune had weeks long festival. Can't have miserable when people are literally dancing 12 hours a day, bro.

Read some history books, and stop trying to fit reality into your little boxes.

>>51526831
>Such as?
Ever heard of marketable skills? We live in the digital age. Act like it. Don't try to take away people's ability to lift because you're a cab driver and you now have to try harder, soon all driving will be automated and if you're not developing your entire skillset will be superfluous.

Social democracy and controlled capitalism are still here, and more controlled than ever. Unless you're roleplaying as some sort of citizen of an ancap setting.

>>51520034
>A lot of D&D settings or campaigns I've played in have basically been anarcho-capitalist paradises.
Yep. FANTASY.

also because DM's are lazy.

>If this is the case, why not go all the way?

All the way to what? You just said it's an anarchists uptopia or something. What more do you want?

>>51522974
Oh jesus dude. get off it.

>>51523043
>In an actual ancap society

I think you mean mythical ancap utopia. (ancap? Really, that's the word now?)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_medieval_England


>>51523176
Yeah, it sure doesn't last for long. "Unstable" would be the term. Capitalism lasts longer, but late-stage capitalism where a few people start winning is a lot like feudalism.


>>51524188
Cyberpunk IS an AnCap setting.


>>51524794
>Has anyone run a game where the central government tried to tax PCs?

Yep. I've thrown fees around for various things. I've had the "kings tax" on any pillaged goods taken from the orcs.A hateable fellow met them at the border. I've had a flat tax on anyone inside the city, but that was an evil lich-king and it was more of a "breathing fee". Toll roads set up by ogres, dock fees, and one time I got them to pay "sales tax" but it was really just a merchant screwing them out of an extra 15%.


>>51525431
>A lot of ancaps think monopolies are unnatural and wouldn't be that prevalent in a stateless society.
Otherwise known as dumbfucks who have never opened a history book.

>>51526392
>Anarchy works for NASA
What the fuck are you smoking? What part of NASA is anarchist is the LEAST?

>>51526544
>Well now I want to play a game set in a light-hearted ancap setting and start my own city.
You'll need the leadership feat. But yeah, we've come full circle. That's essentially D&D. Anarchy so the players are free to do whatever they want. Capitalistic so they can still buy and sell stuff. Light-hearted in that they ignore all the ramifications and pretend it works.

>>51526906
>Can't have miserable when people are literally dancing 12 hours a day, bro.
what is this bullshit?

>>51526906
For an example of how the Commune was ridiculously and stupidly nice by anyone standard, the Comity wanted the money of the National Bank (la banque de france, which isn't a government organization, for some ridiculous reason). They sent people inside. The National Bank said no. The Commune decided that okay, well, we'll do without that money, then.

They had an army. The faggot with the fedora said no. They obeyed.

The Commune was stupidly nice. It was certainly amongst its numerous, numerous issues.

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>>51526940
I just think that if we can have lighthearted feudal settings where you save princesses and serve kings and nobody has a problem with it then lighthearted ancap should be more prevalent.
It's basically the same but you can use modern terms.

If only people weren't so FUCKING JUMPY around political stuff.

Well OP, anarcho-capitalism is a masturbatory fantasy for schizoid rubes who fetishize the prospect of having feudal lords cuck them out of the products of their labor, whereas D&D is a role playing game.

>>51526906
>anarchy "works" when it has a hierarchy overseeing its developments and steps into maintain whatever status quo most benefits the entire entity

Fucking lol

>>51526634
I'm my phone and don't really want to type out large replies here. Also I'm not real active in the anarcho-capitalist community. I was like 10 years ago though.

Let's just say this, if you had someone like a minarchist, or very strong constitutional libertarian, and sat them next to an anarcho-capitalist they would agree on a lot of things (not everything, they may end up having many discussions.) One major point of contention would be "How much personal responsibility does your average person need to shoulder to maintain prosperity and halt the creation of authoritarian governments?" The minarchist will argue that the state is a necessary evil, and that expecting people to take on the responsibility of preventing state formation is unrealistic. "Anarcho-capitalism won't work because people just aren't rational/responsible enough for it." That type of argument. The ancap will argue that maintaining statelessness in a society that doesn't view the state as fundamentally necessary is likely to be less of a burden than trying to keep a state from increasing in size and scope outside of its constitutional limits. Reacting to and influencing voluntary relationships you have with companies and people is often easier than influencing involuntary relationships like governments. I can much more easily negotiate with my internet provider (and ISPs are known for being difficult fuckers) than I can with any government organization I work with. And if someone isn't responsible enough to try and influence companies that interact with them on a voluntary basis, are they really going to be able to influence the government, when it contains elected officials, but also unelected bureaucracy and committees who have zero obligation to ordinary public individuals and who's existence may be mandated by government decree.

>>51526392
>Anarchy worked for the Commune.
... Which one?

This one?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Commune_(French_Revolution)

It lasted 6 years. Less than Obama's term.

September massacre. "wave of killing."

This one?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Commune

Less than one year. 2 months.

Go on. Which one you talking about?

>>51526538
Too much altruism
>we must spread civilization
>we must give these people democracy
>they only want us gone because they're brainwashed by their backwards culture
>who needs a free exchange of ideas when you have superior firepower!
It was always about ideology.

>>51527074
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_Commune
Oh geez, this was glorious.
>A bunch of hipster lefties chimp out
>Gustav Courbet, presumably the progenitor of Carl the Cuck's bloodline, whines about how the Austerlitz Column is racist to Russians and Austrians
>He convinces a bunch of flaming queers to tear it down and destroy Napoleon's statue on top of it
>In comes the GLORIOUS REPUBLIC, spreading LIBERTY, EQUALITY AND BROTHERHOOD all over their buttholes
>They restore the Austerlitz column
>Courbet the Cuck is forced to pay for the entire process from his own pocket

Remember when France was great and curbstomped commies and historical revisionists?

>>51527074
>>51527391
Well, anarchy works when you have a bunch of people that are each able to take full responsibility for their own life and at the same time are sufficiently considerate of each other.
But if you had this kind of people, any system would work with them...

>>51525261
Assuming you can reach a state on Anarchy you will then require a computer in space with relativistic kill devices to send Rods from God to anything that resembles a government forming, because if a government actually forms it will it's going to kick the shit out of anything that's not a government.

>>51527435
Anarchy "works" when you have a world of individuals who never meet each other and the species dies out after a generation.

Just because Timmy Anarchist thinks it'd be totally fucking tight if he could do whatever he wanted in a world without rules doesn't mean the rest of humanity would, and that humanity would just band together and make another fucking government.

>>51527073
Except elected officials (in a functioning republic; which it can be argued that America is no longer a functioning republic and needs some serious overhauling) are directly accountable to the people, whereas a worker can't choose their boss. That's not a fair comparison.

>>51526906
>X is a controlled environment.
Irrelevant to my point. Why are you applying a system of government to entities that aren't governments? It's disingenuous, and leads to nothing productive.

>Eh. You really don't know the first thing, do you? You poor, childish soul.
See: >>51526940, >>51526986, >>51527074, >>51527391
Based Kekistanis saving me time citing your bullshit. Much obliged to all you wonderful bastards.

>>51524470
>Shemale on male
>Not the other way around
Plebeian.

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>>51526586
>Let's not do that. Socialism kills kiddos.

Go to bed Robert Conquest.

>>51528307
I was really referring to customer business relationship. As both companies and the government is supposedly providing for certain needs. I'm not sure why you thought I was talking about employment. You have about the same control for who is your boss in a government job or private job.

But as I pointed out, while elected officials may be part of the government, a more substantial portion is not elected. When an elected official decides that a certain committee or government department needs to exist, it generally does so in a way where you have substantially less ability to negotiate with it than any organization you deal with on a strictly voluntary basis.

>>51528404
>muh maledom

1/10 total normie tier anon

>>51520034
I am a /pol/ AnCap, and I still think you're being a faggot. The concept of "level", the idea that a 6th level character could probably level a city full of commoners, the absence of a free market (fix'd prices), the poor crafting rules all yell to the absence of true AnCap.

Not counting noblesse and royalty.

That said, I love to insert AnCap societies in my game, once in a while (maybe 1 every 2 or 3 campaigns). That's my magical realm.

>>51524188
>>51524794
>>51524804
What is the point of these pictures? Is weak self-justifications for dickery funny?

>>51524470
Source?

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>>51528694
Top kek.
This thing is one of the best memes from last year.

>>51528804
I can't wait for Marine the Liberation Machine to crash this union with no survivors.

>>51526504
> Why would you stop growing?
Work vs. Free Time. Most human beings want to enjoy their money.

> Why would he stops from buying another, and another, to have market monopoly? And decide the prices? And be the king of the town?
As soon as he "sets the price", he opens the door for new competitions / alternatives. He can't buy off everyone. If he doesn't, then he provides a very low-cost option that makes everyone's life better.

> But what if every aspects of your life becomes that?
Then we begin to produce luxury products, like art. Or people work hard for very little money, but can still afford all those low-cost options.

> Why would Walmart, or Apple, stop trying to make even more money when suddenly they could buy whole town out of the blue?
They currently benefit from the difference in currency between us and asian countries to produce at ridiculously low cost. Your money would devaluate. If it does, producing in other countries become more of a liability. Then they lose their competitiveness to local producers / stores.

>>51522802
Corporations are inherently evil.

>>51529025
Not anymore so than anyone else.

>>51528890
Get out of here with your REAL arguments. We post memes to disparate people here.

>>51523040
Public roads are often concession based. A company mantains for the right of toll, why do you think they'd make it private?

>>51529106
The problems really arise with shitty companies and businesses rather than the good ones. Sure they go out of business quickly, but they can do quite a bit of damage in the mean time.

Trademarking the name of a Deity so that it dies because nobody can pray to it anymore.

>>51526940
>it was more of a "breathing fee"
How many breaths does a copper piece buy?

>>51529066
The difference is that corporations typically have the resources to commit large scale evil compared to the minor evils committed by the average man.

>>51527074
Not that Anon, but (sort-of) ancap worked well at Kowloon.
...the pre-existing crimes lords keeping shit in line certainly helped tho.

>>51529297
That's true of any collective of people. They also have the resources to do more good than any individual.

>>51528890
>Work vs. Free Time
You underestimate the power that is greed and/or hiring people to manage that shit for you.

>Monopolies opposed by competition
Standard Oil would sell products at a loss to force local businesses out. They could simply recoup profits from other regions of the business.
1. Sell at a loss until everyone else is gone.
2. Hike up prices as the monopoly!
3. ???
4. Profit!
Furthermore, if you wanna go full mafia... one can buy assassins and bands of rape mercenaries to murder-rape the competition into submission.

>Currency discrepancies
Missed the point, bruh. It's about profit motive in the absence of morals or regulation leading to giga-fuckery.

>>51524794
The setting's main empire currently is making an effort. They get a 'Sanctioned Company Letter', a flag and imperial suport on a case-to-case basis.

The "taxes" are 'corveé', actually performing missions on behalf of the emperor and senate, more like land corsairs than anything else, keeping loot which wasn't taken from imperial citizens or government.

They also get Majordomos, because sometimes no one rolls a charisma character, works as a mission dispenser and an all-around 'dealer-of-boring-parts'.

>>51529323
The thing is that they don't, because they're people. And unlike governments which typically have laws imposed on their own power to limit them from fucking their own people up, corporations are completely willing to fuck everything over for something as pathetic as short term profits. ANCAP is retarded because letting those abominations off their leashes would merely usher in chaos and decrease quality of life.

Ultimately, Hobbes was right. All men are monsters, and all men must be bound by law and order for their own well being.

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>>51521444
>>51524546
Feudalism isn't capitalism. Ancap isn't just anarchy, it's anarchy dominated by the economic system of capitalism.

The only way for an Ancap society to function without a lot of handwaving is for the entire setting to be Ancap, otherwise an Ancap civilization would be conquered by literally any other cohesive nation-state.

>>51520034
Because most of the society they're in doesn't follow the PCs' rules, or is run by a GM who isn't an economist.

>>51529370
Except plenty of corporates do self impose on themselves. Laws aren't magic, men made them.

>>51529370
>corporations are completely willing to fuck everything over for something as pathetic as short term profits.

The free market would weed out those entities by virtue of vigilant consumers and investors. A company that destroys things for short-term profit is objectively in the wrong because it violates the NAP with its consumers and investors by destroying their shares and livelihood. Those consumers and investors would move to a more conscientious corporation and greedy corporations would be naturally removed from the economic pool.

>>51529398
The only trouble with it, is that it assumes perfect consumer and investor information and plenty of damage can be done even in the short term.

>>51524470
You've freed me, anon.
Finally I see the light.
No matter what we choose to believe, we end up getting fucked in the ass.

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>>51529456
That is the most reasonable comment I've ever seen on /tg/.

>>51525111

About what specifically? That your views on socio-economic systems and how intertwined they are with political ideologies is fiercely challenged in such a way that makes you rethink everything you ever understood? Or the fact that you secretly desire to have your bowls penetrated by thick long lady dick?

>>51524470
Communism and Libleft a best

>>51529373
What you've explained here is basically why I think Ancaps are retarded.

What the fuck is the point of advocating for an impossible system?

The fact that other powerful nations like China exist preclude the possibility of their existence. Even if America had a revolution and became Ancaperica, we'd be so fractured and vulnerable that we'd get fucking dominated instantly.

And that's not even including the fact that someone in Ancaperica is going to come to power and run the entire thing like a warlord EVENTUALLY, because that's fucking obvious.

So what the hell would the difference between that and a government even be?

The whole concept is a pipedream. It can only work in isolated communes, and if that's going on they likely wouldn't have access to enough capital to make their shit work either.

The entire concept is entirely theoretical and fanciful.

>>51526207
Not that anon but the point is that some small towns won't be worth the cost.

It's kinda similar to the whole issue of "but roads".
It's not that a private company couldn't build and maintain roads, but that they'd be doing it for profit, not charity or the greater good.
In their bottom line some roads just won't be worth bothering with because not enough people use them. Even with roads that see more use it's not the most profitable business without government contracts.
Companies would even be incentivised to not maintain roads that are used by competing companies or groups or even create systems of changing rates are purposeful closures to take advantage of people in high-traffic areas, roads specifically are something where the firstcomers claim valuable realestate and then any new competitors have to make due with inferior routes, it's not like they can build a competing road on exactly the same route.

>>51529620
>communes
They're not leftists.

>>51529640
Lots of people make use of communes.

Pretty much just requires a cultish obsession with something.

Whether it's leftism, a cult religion, or animal fucking is up to the flavor of retard gravitating to it.

Anarchists have communes as well.

>>51529658
Yeah, leftist anarchists.

>>51528648
Except all of those elected officials are either nothing more than cogs in the bureaucratic machine or appointed by officials we DO elect. In the former case, they just do what they're told and shut up. In the case of the latter, we can express our displeasure with their choices when election time comes around. Also, you have yet to address my point concerning your flawed analogy concerning Valve, AND, etc. Again, neither of your analogies hold up.

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>>51529674
We're on the same page, I'm just trying to say that Ancapitalism can only work in a vacuum.

>>51520141
>There's nothing inherently /pol/ about fascism, it's been around since the 30's
>There's nothing inherently /pol/ about communism, it'sbeen around since the 1850's

>>51523041
>taxation is theft
Nice meme

>>51526478
Except communism, which catapulted a feudal society into the space age within a generation.

>>51529804
It objectively is. Not all theft is objectively evil, either.

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>>51529676
Most unelected officials are put in position by other unelected officials. And I think if you look at government organizations and committees I think you'll find they're NOT accountable to elected officials, they're accountable to the law or action that brought them into existence and sometimes end up butting heads and fighting very hard with elected officials. I would certainly be /ideal/ if unelected officials could truly held to task by elected officials, but I think if you take an honest look at the situation you'll find that doesn't apply very well to what we see in the real world.

Also, I never said anything about Valve. Not everyone you're arguing with is me. So far my posts ITT have been >>51528648 and >>51527073

>>51529339
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0OaoR1ogQb2

>>51529830
>Russia was Communist

Comrade Stalin thanks you for your work

>>51529373
>>51529620
To be fair to them it's not like communism or leftist anarchism fairs any better. I'm no ancap, I'm just saying idiotic systems are not unique to capitalists.

>>51529830
And they did it literally with the price of soviet lives.

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>>51529025
Well that's the stupidest thing I've heard this week. Good job.

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>>51529830
The USSR managed to barely get to space while 60 million people died, then it collapsed in on itself. The USA managed to get to the moon, and is on its way to getting to Mars, and it has had almost no starvation problems.

>>51530243
>it wasn't REAL communism

>>51530445
It wasn't communism in any sense of the word, the same way that no one would make the mistake of calling the "Democratic" "People's" "Republic" of "Korea" democratic and/or a republic.

Soviet Russia was a fascist dictatorship, through and through.

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>>51526831
>Less people are needed for work. So work does not seem to work as defining action of life anymore
Less people were needed for work way back in the Agricultural Revolution. People tend to favor having more stuff over just not working.

>>51530492
Smart snake.

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>>51530490
So fascism propelled us to the space age then? I mean, first there was the German rocket scientists, then the fascist Soviets took them and went to space with them, so apparently fascism took us to space, yes?

>>51529398
>what is the diamond industry

Capitalism without limits will twist everything to gain a profit. CEO's will often exhibit sociopathic traits or even be full blown sociopaths, and literally don't care at all for anybody but themselves. Capitalism is ultimately a necessary evil, like corporations, and under no circumstances should we ease regulations. They need to be kept on a tight leash to prevent monopoly or abuse of the consumer. Just look at how rice companies will stuff bags full of plastic to make a quick buck if they aren't watched nonstop, or baby food companies will put lead and other shit into their food without something like the FDA busting their kneecaps if they try shit.

>>51528737
Read into the Non-Aggression Principle

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>>51530527
I am completely on board with what you're saying anon. You are 100% right. Capitalism is good for efficiency, but it needs to be forced to serve the people.

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>>51530508
The smartest. Although who really represents the snake the most, Constitutionalists, minarchists, or ancaps?

>>51530513
Yes, was there ever any doubt of that? Dictatorships are the best form of government, the only problem is the question of succession. Hereditary monarchy is one of the worst ideas humanity has ever invented, and if you give one person supreme legislative power, you're giving him the power to name his (or her, I suppose) child the heir apparent. There's really no way around that, and history has shown it's impossible to have any sort government without devolving into dynasties. We have them today with the Clintons and Bushes and Kennedies.

>>51530630
You mean what does the snake represent? Considering the gold and black, probably ancap.

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>>51530749
I always thought the snake was Constitutionalist because of its resemblance to the Gadsden snake

>>51530788
A lot of people love that flag. Myself included. >>51527073

>>51530669
>Dictatorships are the best form of government, the only problem is the question of succession.
Actually, the problems start long before succession is even a issue, as the top dog is more worried about keeping power rather than their nation and surround themselves with inept yes-men rather than competent but potentially dangerous individuals, and that is when they don't believe their own propaganda.

>>51530329
You're not proving him wrong

>>51523350
No, swords are a guarantee of the NAP.

>>51530669
Actually hereditary monarchies are better than elections if they are a constitutional monarchy, look at England/Britain. Monarchies, especially modern ones, ensure that the heir has around 40 years to receive a complete education and experience in realpolitik.

>>51530857
As opposed to democratically elected leaders who are pretty much only concerned with filling their pockets as best they can before their brief stint of power is over.

Kings, Emperors, Dictators; the lot of them are extremely effective when they actually have the support of their people, or have so solidly locked down their own secure power that they don't need to worry about yes-men.

>>51530669
>>51530951
You know what an even better version of that is? Imperial Schola to train promising citizens in the art of statecraft and ruling, where the current reigning king/emperor/dictator can choose their preferred heir from amongst them, while the rest go on to public service.

>>51528737
Jokes anon. Its a satire of anarcho capitalist society.

>>51530959
Competent kings and emperors tend to be the exception, actually. For every Basil II there is 10 Constantine X.

>>51525295
I honestly don't know how you got this. The entire point of Ancap is that its predicated on the same principals of free market in general, that every human looks out for themselves first. The entire theory is based on humans being flawed social beings that even when acting 100% in self interest they still promote the greater good through voluntary exchange of goods and services.
The only problem is defining and stopping abuse that would get rid of the voluntary part.

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>>51531126
>The entire theory is based on humans being flawed social beings that even when acting 100% in self interest they still promote the greater good through voluntary exchange of goods and services.
>even when acting 100% in self interest they still promote the greater good
>acting 100% in self interest
>promote the greater good

>>51531166
>>acting 100% in self interest
>>promote the greater good
Are you retarded? Buy opting to buy whatever it is you buy you pay the wages for everyone involved in the creation and peddling of that good or service. You win because you paid a competitive price for a good or service that you wanted and were fine with parting with the money for. The producer wins because they wouldn't sell shit at a loss. In a voluntary exchange, which only comes about when both parties feel they have something to gain, both sides win.

>>51531126
This makes two assumptions
>humans are 100%self interested
Most humans are altruistic to some degree
>total free market capitalism necessarily optimizes towards long term overall good
[SlavicEvidenceTurkey.bmp]

>>51531212
The incentive to innovate with new products like drugs is greatly diminished with no state, companies need to have some measures to protect their profits beyond having private armies, the system's untenable because you end up with established companies who can afford the armies and the various upkeeps of salary and goods required to run the business, beyond that with no accountability all forms of debt fall apart, any form of delayed payment falls apart, infrastruture would be created only to serve the companies large enough to benefit from the natural monopolies that an anarchist society would envitably bring.

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>>51530839
While I do have respect for the personalities and convictions of the ancaps, the idea of an anarchist society is just too great of a risk for me to be on board. Put it this way, I want the ancaps to succeed, but I don't think they will. But I'm a pretty easy guy to get along with, as long as you support free market capitalism, freedom of speech, and gun rights then 99% any problems I could possibly have with you are gone. Heck, I'd be willing to have a beer with that Pinochet guy if he was still around. He's not my favorite by any means, but as far as dictators go he was certainly the most based.

>>51531252
>Most humans are altruistic to some degree
This doesn't hurt the system at all. It still generates some wealth, the giver feels good and the receiver gets some useful products to keep going and continue contributing on their own.
The latter is if short-sighted idiots push for immediate quarterly profits rather than set up for kids or grandkids. Its still a problem but reliant on a shareholder system.
>>51531264
I honestly don't have a counter to your points. I personally don't believe in anarcho-capitalism, I think there should be some oversight, but dummy communists need to be told that people being selfish generates wealth.
Though if I understand it correctly the AnCap dream is a shit ton of small businesses interacting with one another rather than big megacorps. I don't know enough to figure out how one would prevent such megacorps from founding but still, dream is there.

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>>51530863
My point is that communism barely managed to accomplish what capitalism has since gone far past accomplishing. He says the Soviets "brought us into the space age" but it's not like the USA wouldn't have gone to space with or without them, they just made us do it a little sooner because of the dick measuring contest we had going on at the time.

>>51531338
>still a benefit to the system
Altruistic tendencies lead to irrational choices, possibly allowing for the survival of unfit business or the demise of otherwise fit business, leading to societal inefficiency.
>The latter is if short-sighted idiots push for immediate quarterly profits rather than set up for kids or grandkids. Its still a problem but reliant on a shareholder system.
That's still too short term

>>51531166
Part of it is recognizing that life isn't zero-sum. Having a bigger slice out of a smaller pie doesn't actually gain you anything. If everyone's goal was to maximize the amount of pie they could acquire, you'd see a lot more teamwork. More charity, even. Notice how things like food stamps and decriminalization of drugs result in a net profit for the country, while things like debtor's prisons (http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/arizona/article_14ad29bc-76b5-11df-9a61-001cc4c002e0.html) and speed limit enforcement are actually a net drain on society.

>>51531382
Proof that the USA was shooting for space and was gnona hit the moon before sputnik? Not even in a snarky "haha bet u cnt do it lol" way, genuinely interested.

>>51531459
We'd just nicked all the smart nazis and were more than willing to bankroll their continued research

>>51531397
>That's still too short term
Define long term if you don't mind. I cede the former point but how is two generations, modern generations that live for a hundred years and make kids in mid 30s, too short?

>>51523133
Yeah, I mostly believe in ancap.

I very much enjoy the memes. I think they are hilarious and also a well deserved criticism.

The most ancap society I can think of is medieval Iceland. I would very much enjoy living in said Iceland. Yes, even without internet and flush toilets. Indeed, there's a lot of evidence that modern life is unfulfilling and wasted. That's why I spend all my time on 4chan when I should be doing office work. And studies also show that's more or less the norm, except with facebook and Reddit instead of 4chan.

Not very unusual perhaps that I like a medieval setting and also browse /tg/. But I digress...

A modern ancap society would look extremely similar to current society. All the functions of government would still be performed. Except government is by subscription rather than by sovereign territory. In this way, territory is privately owned, and then the territory owner subscribes to his preferred "government" which consists of a court service, a military protection service, a police service, and probably a list of standard laws you're obligated to accept, much like a ToS agreement.

There would be much corporate shittiness, absolutely. Ancap does not claim to be a utopia. It claims to outperform the modern superpowered nations, which is the status quo today. Honestly, which of these sounds the most appealing to you:
The USSR
Mainland China
The EU with its TV license and Muslim rape
The USA with its Trumproletariat and Shillary corruption

Basically, all of these are shit. The POTUS election almost seems like its optimized for producing shit. Can you really disagree?

In Ancap, shit companies go out of business much faster than nations do. And if your nation is batshit, you can subscribe to a new one without forefeiting all your property.

That's the idea. Plenty of flaws I'm sure. But is it really worse than the nuclear shit show you see now?

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>>51531459
It's not about who got there first or what the objective was, the point is that the Soviet Union only got there at the expense of basic commodities like food, something that the USA never had to worry about. Your system isn't fantastic when it brings people into outer space, it's fantastic when it brings people to Mars without any starvation, freedom beyond any other countries, and the biggest economy in the world. Managing to get a piece of metal rocketed into space is nothing if you can't even keep your nation from imploding.

>>51531335
Well like I said, one of the main point of contention between the people who fly that flag is going to be how "necessary" the government is, we both appreciate the harm it can do. So if I see that flag, even if I think he might support the state, while I do not, I know he's unlikely to support the state confiscating personal belongings, criminalizing victim-less activities and determining how much I can sell my labor for.

>>51531470
I meant spesifically about the moon, i mean Kennedy seemed pretty set on it and i can't imagine that the US was seriously funding a dude who said "Yeah i wanna fire a information collecting human team into the vaccum of space, so they can land on the moon, and then come back with stuff taht could've been collected by robots" Not knocking it, but pre sputnik and especially pre russo moon achivements i don't see how that plan spesifically would've come up.

>>51531382
Its not really comparable as in the 1910s the USA was financially stable and secure while Russia was neither so saying "America did it better" is obvious because america started with an advantage

>>51531212
>Are you retarded?
No, I'm not AnCap. Presuming that people acting in complete selfish self-interest make rational decisions that somehow benefit the greater good is an inherently laughable idea.
>In a voluntary exchange, which only comes about when both parties feel they have something to gain, both sides win.
Or y'know, one side has fooled or tricked the other into thinking the exchange is worthwhile, has monopoly on whatever good or service is being bargained for and all the other ways people try to fuck over each other in voluntary exchanges.

>>51531445
>Part of it is recognizing that life isn't zero-sum.
Duh and/or hello.
The rest of your post sounds more like altruistic behavior rather than selfish self-interest.

>>51531545
you could make the argument that alot of the USA's wealth that allowed them to become such a strong economy stems from the slave trade so for both the USSR and the USA the space race was built on suffering, its just that in the case of the USSR the suffering was more recent

>>51531575
>people acting in complete selfish self-interest make rational decisions
Why would you be irrational when yourself is at stake? Under what circumstance would you be less capable to do something for yourself than for others.
>thinking the exchange is worthwhile
and the moment they're found out they lose. Their business becomes untenable as simple word of mouth will stop people from buying their shit.
>has monopoly
Tell me how one would form in a society without governmental oversight? Tell me how someone could get a complete and total monopoly on any necessary good in a modern environment.

>>51531541
Hello, could you please respond to this statement?
>>51531264
Thank you for your time.

>>51531641
>you could make the argument that alot of the USA's wealth that allowed them to become such a strong economy stems from the slave trade
That would be a pretty weak argument.

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>>51531567
Yeah, I think the right tends to get along much better than the left. The anarchists couldn't even keep the communists from attacking them during the Spanish civil war. The right may not always agree, but I think on a fundamental level we are more peaceful and compromising than the left, so we find it much easier to get along in spite of small difference than the left ever could.

>>51531574
But does that not still beg the question as to how the USA got into the position of worlds largest superpower with a hegemony over most of the 1st world, when other nations have been around for so much longer and with so much more willingness to use authoritarian measures?

>>51520034

What, take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week, that sort of thing?

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>>51524122
>>51522896
It's like none of you have ever been to Oklahoma. The roads are already privatized. They're excellent roads. But the toll booths are extremely annoying.

Here, this is an ancap road. Don't be lazy and strawman when you can just as easily make your joke and your point with truth.

>>51531641
Only if you REALLY want to grasp at straws, most of the US' prosperity comes from our natural resource reserves

>>51531688
>The right
>more peaceful and compromising

You've gone barmy, lad. Rightists are more likely to accede to authority, making it easier to get them to fall into lockstep. Leftists tend to be more contrarian, so it's herding cats.

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Properly regulated capitalism with a strong central bank and free trade is pretty damn efficient at allocating resources.

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OD&D assumes an American western frontier (with european fantasy fluff), not anarcho-capatilism per se.

>>51520086
>/pol/
>anarchocap
kek what the fuck?

>>51531688
Well you could say that America was in the position to benefit after world war 1 while Russia was not. This allowed america to build allies and collect war debts from France and Britain while Russia was still in political turmoil and suffering under a civil war and war communism

>>51531676
So is saying that the people under communism starved because of the space program

>>51531851
>So is saying that the people under communism starved because of the space program
Pretty sure he is saying they starved because of communism. But communism WHILE trying to run a space program probably is even worse, yes.

>>51531647
>Why would you be irrational when yourself is at stake?
Because people have this thing called "emotion" that tends to override peoples rational decision making. Even in direct life and death situations people are not rational, you could even argue thats when we're our least rational because instinct hijacks your brain.
>Under what circumstance would you be less capable to do something for yourself than for others.
The answer to this question is so obvious the question becomes retarded.
>Tell me how one would form in a society without governmental oversight?
Well, by using the fact that there's no one with a monopoly on violence and acquiring a shitload of force of arms, occupying a resource and then murdering anyone trying to acquire that resource without buying it from you.
>Tell me how someone could get a complete and total monopoly on any necessary good in a modern environment.
AnCapistan would not be a modern environment.

>>51531674
Yeah ok I'll try. Caveat: it's not like I'm a professional political scientist or anything. The official explanations of ancap theory can be found if you google "Mises institute"

>>51531264
Basically my response to this is "citation needed". Iceland was perfectly capable of exercising debts, delayed payment, etcetera. So it's not obvious at all that societal trust in debt would collapse. Which, by the way, happens constantly in statist society. We have a word for it: defaulting. Many nations in history have collapsed when they defaulted on their debt. So in as much as this is a problem, why is it specifically more of a problem for ancap nations? And yes, I do consider them nations- merely nations by subscription rather than by sovereign territory.

Also, the infrastructure argument is just ignorant. Clearly you've never been to a 2nd world country. Go to China. Specifically, I have in mind a place called Nanshan outside of Longkou in the Shandong region. The state has these shitty roads until you get to Nanshan, which is a company town. Nearly 100% of the people there are employed by Nanshan. Nanshan built the hospital, the schools, the Nuclear power plant, the residential housing dormitories, and the "private security force" which carries out the laws passed by the Chinese state. And the roads are way, WAY, WAY better than any Chinese state road. They have to be to carry equipment for the Aluminum factory- which is the heart of the town's economy.

Yes, Nanshan basically owns you if you live there, and controls every aspect of your life. And you know what?

Before Nanshan got there, as recently as 1995, people were living in dirt floored mud huts with outhouses eating rotten apples so they could sell the good ones for literally pennies.

tldr: a private company in this case has way, way outperformed the actual state in providing infrastructure and services. I have every reason to believe its possible in shitty rural US towns.

>>51531478
On a personal level, two generations is plenty long term.
On a societal level, I wouldn't say anything less than AT LEAST 100 years is long term; preferably, long term starts somewhere between 1 and 1.5 times the lifespan of an average citizen.

>>51531872
>the point is that the Soviet Union only got there at the expense of basic commodities like food
>Pretty sure he is saying they starved because of communism. But communism WHILE trying to run a space program probably is even worse, yes.

The reasons people starved under communism was requisition of grain during war time and collectivisation of agriculture that included hoarding grain. the way he's describing it makes it sound like the communists were just turning grain into rocket fuel while people starved

>>51531949
>the way he's describing it makes it sound like the communists were just turning grain into rocket fuel while people starved
Sounds perfectly plausible desu.

>>51531688
Cause America was the only country that wasn't bombed to ruins and also because America had the largest middle class population in the world making it an enticing place to do business. Also their unique cultural heritage of making movies helped as well.

>>51524804
Then go to Somaliland.

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>>51531949
I'm not saying that the space program is what caused the food crisis, but earlier you or possibly another poster mentioned the Soviet space program as if it was somehow proof of the superiority of communism, when I was simply pointing out that if your country sucks in literally every other way then having a space program is nothing to be proud about. It's like being North Korea and thinking that because you have nukes that you are on the same level as the USA.

>>51522802
Cyberpunk is ancap. State power is weak everywhere relevant and corporations can hold territory.

>>51529512
My political views are pretty much set in stone, soooooooooooooooooooooooooo...
It's not gay if it's a girl, right?

>>51531927
Did they install nets in the dormitories to keep the workers from killing themselves to escape slavery?

>>51532017
And the whole point of Cyberpunk is that everything is awful.

>>51520034
Shadowrun is actually about a group of anarco capitalists who got their nap violated so they arm themselves to the teeth and start firing recreational mini nukes at mega corps, who in turn fire back because their nap has been broken.

>>51531572
Robotics weren't that advanced at the time. I doubt they woulda been able to even control them then

>>51532120
It's paradoxical though

Neuromancer and Snowcrash (as well as Shadowrun/Cyberpunk 2020 that draw heavily from both) are both action adventure thrillers that can only exist in their respective worlds due to the largely unregulated world the setting exists in. It's a weird hypocrisy that I see all the time in comparitive settings like pirates, the American old west, and Conan the Barbarian - "Oh no, the world is so savage and uncivilised but secretly you know you wish to live in this world and not be constrained by regulation and laws."

Snowcrash is especially guilty of this as it's obviously supposed to be a (sorta) cautionary tale about the effect of privatisation but simultaneously depicts the world as being off the wall crazy fun and highly innovative so what the fuck am I supposed to feel? Guilty for secretly wishing to live in this power fantasy you've constructed?

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>>51532224
It's rather odd that the biggest complaints in real life against anarcho-capitalism tends to be something along the lines of turning us into wage slaves with perpetually boring lives while in debt, but in fiction Ancapistan suddenly turns into an adventure town with abundant opportunity, while still pushing the idea that it is terrible.

>>51532224
You have to occasionally do the D&D villagers vs rats to understand that you don't actually want to live in a fictional world. Its only awesome because you're PCs and all that. If you were actually to become bumblefuck the receptionist or fuckbumble the farmer, you would live in fear everyday for mundane shit that you need the adventurers for.

>>51532004
Well the original anon you disagreed with was >>51529830 and desu I do agree that communist Russia was shit but in terms of what it achieved it was rather impressive, a space program, increased agricultural output by 40% and becoming one of two major international powers all in under 40 years.

>>51532115
No actually. Its extremely skilled labor. Not everyone can make bullet trains out of aluminum ingots. Most of the people are pretty grateful they get free hospital treatment and child education and police service- all on the company's dime.

You're free to leave whenever you want. Some do. It's hardly slavery. It's just that this industrialist who happened to be from this village is the only person who gave a single fuck about these people at all. Because the country sure as hell didn't. Just a number on a census. If they were even that.

I'm not saying there isn't fucked up shit. There absolutely is. Like police brutality- though that's pretty normal for China. And therein lies the problem. Thats NORMAL for China. That's NORMAL for the statist system. Normal for Russia. Seems pretty normal for the US too.

Everything everywhere is shit. But the company town is extremely noticeably less shit than everywhere else within a 4 hour drive of an otherwise blighted hellhole that is northern china.

Also note: Japan and Sweeden have the highest suicide rates. Not China. And that's even including how frequently China rules deaths as suicide when they were actually killed by police brutality or triads or government officials or because some tourist needed a new liver.

Like, I really don't think you get how fucked up the world is anon.

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>>51532289
There is a certain impressiveness to it, but considering the mountain of corpses it was built on I don't think anyone would say it was worth it.

>>51532331
>muh police brutality
Go disrupt more libraries, BLMfag

>>51532331
>Japan and Sweeden
I can understand japan with their antiquated system of honor that demands that people essentially forfeit their lives but Sweden? Didn't know that.

>>51532224
Sort of.
Cyberpunk fiction is usually not about your average drone worker, it's about a cool guy with some sort of personal power (from "gubmint" employment to just cunning ) that lets him live just barely inside the system. So it's BOTH cautionary tale and power fantasy.

>>51532271
You know, i'm not usually the one to judge an artist by the kind of content he draws, but i'm starting to think that guy has problems.

>>51530040
No its paying rent for owning housing on goverment property and land.
And yeah, not much of the world is not goverment property so you dont have much choice.

>>51532289
Their track record look less impressive every time I remember they flat out took the land of my grand grandfather and let him and his family to starve in the fields.

I wouldn't exist if he and his family did not get smuggled into China before the red tide got there too.

So really, they got to space? Great, fuck them.

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>>51532331
I wonder what rpg's and cyberpunk fiction emphasizes individualism. Not even democracy, but purely the kind of "leave me alone", do-it-yourself, self-reliance and individualism.

>>51522974
In an ancap society any form of money would fluctuate and roll over quicker than a possum on a highway.

Most corps would form their own goverments and have their own money in the instant the magic ancap fairy poofs away the majority of the human race.

>>51531737
That's the cutest tollbooth I've ever seen. We need more privatized roads.

>>51532475
considering the group nature of RPGs, probably not a lot. Also while nearly every setting you ever see is going to be in some amount of turmoil. An ancap utopia doesn't produce conflight, which is needed for a game, example.

>>51528404
>shemale
Those aren't shemales, they're futas

>>51532337
I disagree that it was built on the corpses but they were an unfortunate bi product that can be blamed on certain conditions and I know this is starting to sound like the old excuse of "It wasn't real communism" but Stalinist Russia is not in my opinion communism.

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>>51532434
>i'm starting to think that guy has problems
I think I kind of understand him. Like, it's not a sexual thing with me, but seeing them wince and cry in pain makes you just wanna give them a hug, right?

>>51532445
At least rpg's almost always allow you to play the role of an ancap. Not saying they always have an ancap society, but you're usually able to become a mercenary or businessman of some sort, rather than having to resort to being an enlisted soldier.

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>>51532331
>Japan and Sweeden have the highest suicide rates. Not China.
That's because Chinese businesses refuse to admit that any of their employees have ever committed suicide and they were all accidental deaths, and then immediately installing nets on buildings to keep people from jumping out, and force their employees to sign contracts that say that if they ever attempt suicide they'll incur a fine that they or their families will be forced to pay off by working even more. You know, just in case.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides

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>>51532514
>An ancap utopia doesn't produce conflight

Utopias in general are shitty settings.

Also
>Ancap
>Utopia

>>51525431
>When it comes to force it's hard for security companies to justify punishing others for being security companies I guess.
It's actually piss easy.

Security companies are fundamentally in the business of wielding force. In an ancap society, this is supposed to be use of force in defending clients from others' aggression against them. But you can construe just about anything as a violation of the NAP if you put your mind to it, *especially* when it's a use of force.

Sure, if they're being honest and principled they won't do this. And other folks will look at that and say "hey, that's kind of fishy business there". But what are they going to do? They can boycott the shady company, but the company will still be able to find plenty of support from other shady folks who would be happy to have a personal army to fuck with their enemies. And if the shady security company is big and enough to begin with, their existing clients might not have enough decent other options to afford to boycott -- especially if said shady company is actively suppressing competition. And if other security companies actually bring force to bear on the shady one to stop their NAP-violating funny business...well, then you basically have a war on your hands, because each side believes (or at least professes to believe) the other is violating the NAP.

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>>51532506
>Most corps would form their own goverments
I'm actually gonna have to disagree with you on that one. Governments are absolutely horrid at producing profits. I mean heck, the United States gets accused of being a corporatocracy all the time and yet we have 18 trillion dollars of debt. No, if you want profits, you get employed by governments, but you never, ever become the government.

>>51532558
>Utopias in general are shitty settings.
Yes, that was the point. Glad you got it.

>>51532534
>I think I kind of understand him. Like, it's not a sexual thing with me, but seeing them wince and cry in pain makes you just wanna give them a hug, right?
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehokay? I mean, the whole hurt/comfort stuff is a thing that exists, but more than half is just killing.

>>51532558
>Utopias in general are shitty settings.
If you ever want a vision of Hell itself, pick a philosophy you fundamentally despise, look up their personal Utopia, and imagine living in it. And then imagine their reaction to your own personal utopia. All utopias are Hell to non-believers.

>>51532576
yay!

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>>51532627
>more than half is just killing
Well you know, fresh corpses can still be kind of sexy, but you certainly shouldn't do anything to them. I do find it kind of odd how much Dutchko enjoys seeing women killed, I mean I love a good death as much as the next guy but seeing it happen to women kind of hurts me on the inside.

>>51531813
>Properly regulated capitalism with a strong central bank and free trade is pretty damn efficient at allocating resources
This, holy shit this

The problem with Snacks is they forget that one of the key components if any market or economy is the presence of an Institution that can make and enforce the rules of trade and ensure trade can occur safely.

Just set up the basis of the enforcer institute, but build in caveats that prevent too great of a federal over reach or government enforced monopolies, then let the market work it's magic, and resources get allocated efficiently, and with a relatively good amount of business and market turnover to allow adaptation of the market and the ability of business entrance to keep competition high and markets low.

Really, when you boil it down, an Economy is really just a heavily abstracted ecosystem. And just bloke ban ecosystem, when the basic rules are present and enforced (such as natural laws, dynamics, climate and disturbance intervals and conditions, and a clear trophic dynamic) the rest will move efficiently on its own in an organic manner, and usually only gets shirty when either a deal accident happens on occasion Romney's with it, or if people attempt to artificially alter it too much to their liking

>>51532570
I think it'd be coming a bit natural. Honestly all they need is protection for their workers and their families, then you need to put down rules for how things should and BAM. Goverment with disloyal army, soon to be replaced by whipped salary riflemen. Give a few years as it turns into a plutocratic feudal society, with the boss son being the next king. The workers and their families will be working off bartering totally killing whatever crypto currency the ancaps think would be able to hold up in this shithouse.

>>51532419
Many believe its Seasonal Affective Depression in Sweden. It is land of the Midnight sun. And in winter, eternal dark.

>>51532405
>gives lengthy detailed anecdotes about living in rural China
>must be a black guy
American education at its best.

>>51532542
Yeah punishing the family for the misbehavior of an employee is a pretty common thing. I make no excuses- it is fucked up.

In general, almost all the numbers coming out of Chinese government are fabricated. But do note the suicide rate is more likely to be inflated than deflated to cover up all the murders. Assuming it wasn't an arbitrary number assigned by a police commissioner. Which it probably was.

Not like western countries don't also skew their statistics. But, admittedly, not as brazenly as China does.

Even so, still probably lower than Japan or China. In Nanshan, you're only working 9 hours a day, including a 4 hour lunch break/siesta. In Japan, you get unpaid overtime all day every day.

>>51532644
>If you ever want a vision of Hell itself, pick a philosophy you fundamentally despise, look up their personal Utopia, and imagine living in it.

Tbh i can do the same with philosophies i like. This may sound edgy teenager-ish, but i feel that humans being utter cocks to each other is a fundamental and much-needed force in the universe.

>>51532570
Here's the thing: that 18 trillion dollar debt? That's all money that was spent. Where did it go? It did maybe 3 trillion dollars worth of work, and the rest lined the pockets of politicians and their cronies. You see the same thing happen with businesses all the time. Startup gets bought, celebrity CEO comes in to make money start raining, runs company into the ground, and cashes out an enormous severance package as the company files for bankruptcy. The cool thing about a government is that you're by default too big to fail. People will keep lending to you literally forever because they can't imagine the existence of not having a government. So you get to skip the filing for bankruptcy part and ride along forever.

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>>51531813
>free trade
Good

>strong central bank
Get out

>>51532434
It's fucking irritating though because you know the authors are wanting you to take away an anti-corporate message from their work but they make their world so interesting with clandestine black ops corporate warfare and conspiracy and then likely look down on you when you have fun with it

>>51532512
The roads are high quality but goddamn son stopping every fucking 30 miles to throw exact change into a bin out your window is just annoying as hell.

Also compare the Pennsylvania turnpike. Somebody had to build a road through those shitty mountains. But fuck man, good luck if you want to pee. You can't get off that thing without paying a fee to get on and off. They got little turnpike islands that are literally between the lanes for gas and such, but if you want to stop in a town, you can eat a dick. Also, once saw a pileup and that blocked traffic for- I shit you not- 13 hours. Because there was no detour. No outlet. Just miles and miles and miles and miles of cars parked. People were sitting around in the road talking to eachother in the westbound lane. I was eastbound. Thank fuck I didn't get caught in that. Almost 70 miles of that bullshit- bumper to bumper parked car traffic.

Toll roads are a pain in the ass man.

>>51532475
Read "The Ungoverned". It's a short story. Will pop up if you google it.

Long literary tradition on hermits running back through western culture too.

>>51532685
>In Nanshan, you're only working 9 hours a day, including a 4 hour lunch break/siesta.
And at Foxconn, they work 20 hour shifts for several weeks before each iPhone launch. What is there to suggest that if we were to create an ancap society that we wouldn't see that instead of shiny roads and 25 hour work weeks?

>>51532644
Honestly the only utopias I wouldn't want to live in is ones that would kill me over race/religion ect
A capitalist utopia is one where everyone makes enough to live
A communist utopia is one where everyone is provided for and works for the state
Both sound good to me unless I'm fundamentally misrepresenting either

>>51532744
>stopping every fucking 30 miles to throw exact change into a bin out your window is just annoying as hell.
get the pikepass then. They made it for a reason.

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>>51532744
Maybe with the self driving cars they could just put it on a yearly tab every time you drive on it, then charge you at the end of the year. Technology is going to make it less annoying, is what I'm getting at. In fact, while I would never recommend anarcho-capitalism say, 100 years ago, as tech moves on and on I'm becoming more open to the idea.

>>51532769
Well Marx actually predicted that true communism would occur when society was ready to abolish states all together and people would just naturally work for each other as well as for themselves.

>>51532627
War is hell. Even more so when they are cuties getting killed.

>>51532769
>A communist utopia is one where everyone... works for the state
That actually a totalitarian utopia. In a communist utopia, everyone would be working for themselves, because they enjoy the teamwork and service aspects of the job.

At my last job, which was legitimately shit and I can't imagine anyone actually wanting to work there, there were at least three people I know of that didn't need the job and were just there because all their friends were. One was independently wealthy and lived off interest on his savings, one had a wife who was a doctor and made upwards of a quarter million a year, and one was self employed making hand carved wooden tableware that he sold for exorbitant prices.

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>>51532769
I'm not an ancap, but if you have to pick a utopia pick anarcho-capitalism. Here's why:

In an ancap society, you can form your coops, communes, and socialist enclaves to your hearts desire, so long as you don't attempt to violently "liberate" other workers.

In a communist utopia, any attempt to bring your own capitalism into the system will be met with violence. Also, I wouldn't recommend being religious either, they may or may not get violent with you.

To be honest I wouldnt mind a setting where all the ancap memes are true and people are launching their own homegrown nukes to people who stepped on their grass

>>51532797
Sure, but as tech advances sufficiently we may hit post-scarcity and the question of economic distribution becomes moot.

>>51532782
Yeah but I don't live in these states. I just have to drive through them to get to places I want to go. And the exact change is very annoying.

But I'd rather have toll roads than commie roads. Frankly, I think I'd rather have toll roads to rainbow faggot roads too.

>>51520034
It's just fantasy

>>51532762
Presumably, the conditions at Foxconn are untenable, and will eventually collapse. Frankly, China itself will collapse first, so we'll not really know the answer proper.

That said, I'll be generous and concede its not impossible market forces will conspire to create a miserable little pocket such as this one. Afterall, FAA flight traffic simulators have found it can eliminate 99% of air traffic nationwide by keeping one specific passenger jet on the tarmac for 117 hours. So its possible the market would result in a small enclave of shitty slave conditions. I'm much more confident it wouldn't be the widespread norm, but beside the point...

...my question to you is: how is a statist system better? China is enforcing this. USA is allowing it. Indeed, USA is providing the demand and the money to make it possible. So its not like Statism solves this problem at all, does it?

Meanwhile, if you outlaw such treatment, as we have done in America- or the laborers demand better standards of living- then the corporation instead relocates to the next third world country desperate enough to see this as an improvement. This is already happening actually. American companies are increasingly pulling out of China and moving to the Phillipines and Vietnam. China has already industrialized, and the young people are aware of western standards of living and civil rights and they're quite angry about it.

Meanwhile Vietnamese children are quite happy to work in sweatshops because the alternative is starvation, mutilation begging, thievery and gang crime, or- most likely of all- prostitution. This statistic in particular is overwhelmingly supported by evidence in mainstream economics and isn't a claim of ancap at all. When you outlaw child labor, you initiate child prostitution. That's no different for desperate adults in third world countries. Most of them prefer 20 hour shifts over fellating expats until they're used up and get cut for fun.

>>51529781
I wasn't memeing, I was stating a fact that medieval tax collectors literally were bandits whom the king allowed because they promised to send some of the money they stole directly to him.

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>>51533120
>Sure, but as tech advances sufficiently we may hit post-scarcity and the question of economic distribution becomes moot.
Sure, but those things will come naturally and smoothly to a capitalist society. Once a particular commodity becomes functionally infinite, the price drops to zero and everyone goes about their life working and purchasing everything except whatever happens to be post-scarcity. Capitalism adapts to post-scarcity situations, it does not fight them.

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The sea elves in Abnor are pretty ancap.

>>51533268
>>51533120
Post scarcity is sci-fi, btw.

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>>51533362
Pretty much, unless Star Trek replicators come into existence then we can't really have post scarcity.

>>51533281
Forgot to leave a link: abnor.com.br

>>51533120
>post-scarcity
How do people still believe in this schlock?
Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy means it's physically impossible, the nature of many goods, such as fossil fuels, means they cannot be remade at a consumable pace, nor are any alternatives yet efficient enough, the massive property and natural/nutritive requirements of food, textiles, sugar, and ethanol, combined with variable soil, topographical, and climatic conditions across the globe means that land space to actually harvest resources for is also hyper limited, and that's not even taking into account property space for the factories, housing, business, shopping, and recreation, which isn't cheap or easy to get either and will conflict the the previous needs.

Mineral resources also compete for space, and many of then are also non renewablenin nature, particularly the "rare earth" metals and elements required to make most forms of advanced technology and computation actually run.

And none of this is even getting into the ramifications of the department of natural resources and the loss of biodiversity and lowering of resource regeneration ability and gross life carrying capacity, or even the ethical implications and debate folded up in the whole deal.

And even if you were to tear open portals to the Eternal Plane of Commodities, and we'll as fold space to create infinite property and living space, you still have THE most limited and scarce resource of them all to contend with:Time

>>51522869
Underrated post.

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>>51533372
Didn't the federation still need to mine whole planets down for mineral resources to keep their advanced civilization running, even with the replicators? I seem to recall this being a major focal point of an episode where a planetary mining operation was in danger due to an indigenous sapient killing miners and wrecking their life supports because they inadvertently killed off a whole clutch of her people's eggs which massively set back their species population success rate

>>51533362
But anon, we already live in a post-scarcity society for many things.

1) Air
2) Porn
3) Cute cat pics

With a budget of 0 dollars, I can bring you literally more porn than it is possible for you to consume. Fuck, I probably have that on a terrabyte drive already.

You say sci-fi as if it means "fantasy". You know what else is sci-fi? Submarines (Jules Verne) and Space Travel (hundreds of 20th century sci-fi authors).

It's like you've put absolutely zero work at all into researching futurology or history. The only consistent prediction that seems to hold true about the future is 1) it will be very different from the present in ways that are foreign and strange to you, and therefore usually unpredictable unless you're very good at anthropology and 2) the rate of change is much, much faster than it was 200 years ago.

>>51533563
You have no idea what the fuck you are talking about

>>51533563
See >>51533436
Also, unless the the BRs and burgers learn to conserve their natural forests and grasslands, air quality may start to significantly drop.

Further, for the last 20 years both natural resource scientists and anthropologists have been agreeing that humans nay reach carrying capacity by around 2050-2060, which is also coincidentally when it's estimated that we'll run out of oil and gasoline.

And even before then, many major aquifers in the US, particularly the Oglala are expected to hit unusable levels by 2035, meaning a whole huge swath of land from Canada to Mexico will be essentially useless to human settlement and business

There is only so much technology can compensate for resource limitations and societal demand.

Further for the other two products you mentioned, those are immaterial intellectual commodities, so their usage, consumption, and shelf life acts and behaves a hell of a lot differently than physical commodities and resources

>>51533436
>flight
How do people still believe in this schlock?
Look at the bodily proportions of humans for flight- it is strictly impossible. Even if you give humanity hollow bones and grafted wings on, you'd still have to contend with the fact there's no oxygen up there to breathe. Not to mention the cold temperatures, the fluctuations of gravity, the possibility of getting sucked into the vacuum of space, and whether or not the atmosphere might catch fire.

Mineral resources also are way too heavy for flight. You couldn't possibly build a flying machine out of anything other than wood. And even then it would fall apart. Not to mention be too slow to get you anywhere in useful time.

And none of this is even getting into the ramifications of air traffic, FAA regulations, military security concerns, or even the ethical questions as to whether god wanted humans to fly.

>ignoring the fact flight is already obtainable by hot air balloon

>>51533723
False equivalence you fucktard. Flight was limited due to a lack of understanding of physics, but was also known to be possible in the natural world, and to any physicists of the time was still considered very much a possibility since nothing about it violated any form of known natural law or process

Post scarcity is limited by the very fact that there exists limited resources, space, energy, and time to use those in this world, so unless you know how to violate the Scientific Laws of Conservation, can produce the results in a way that can be economically feasible on a mass producable scale, can be produced quick enough before wel kill ourselves in 50 years, and can be done without destroying whole swaths of the earth's biosphere and ecological diversity to fuel the implementation us such a fix, then I suggest you shut up.

Because it's not just a tech problem, it's a resource allocation and priority management problem.

And even then, you still have to find a way to make Time somehow a post-scarecity commodity, which In highly ducking doubt your able to lock all of human existence in a nonlinear time warp limbo

So before you open your squealing howler, I suggest you actually take classes in economics, natural resource management, and ecological organization, and actually familiarize yourself with the concepts before you start spouting nonsense off like a moron

Sincerely, a Wildlife Biologist, aka someone who actually has to study and implement these concepts for living

>>51533723
>you'd still have to contend with the fact there's no oxygen up there to breathe. Not to mention the cold temperatures, the fluctuations of gravity, the possibility of getting sucked into the vacuum of space, and whether or not the atmosphere might catch fire.
Except no one ever believed in this bullshit, or at least no one with any scientific background since the 1800s. Your pulling bullshit from your ass to compare oranges to kidney stones

>>51522896
Whoever made this clearly has never lived in Wisconsin. Right Wing as fuck and the roads are dogshit.

>>51522974
So basically, Mexico.

>>51520086
Not everything is /pol/ boogeyman. OP brings up a point, in most DnD settings the PCs don't pay taxes and they are generally tasked with killing some form of aggressor as opposed to say shaking down some peasants for taxes or assassinating another king because someone wants their land.

>>51533918
Well, at least your one of the top 3 most well funded states in regard to wildlife and game management and conservation.

>>51533980
Also wisconsin (Like northern IL) gets a shitload of rain and snow and shit that just DESTROYS roads

>>51525894
Everyone else outbidding said Mercs and siccing them on the CEO.

The Non-Agression Pact is basically "Don't start shit, won't be shit." in so many words.

The issue isn't so much fucking with the community at large as much as making things absolutely horrible within your own little pocket of AnCapistan.

>>51534012
Yeah well, here in Liberal hippy-dippy ass Minnesota, we take care of our roads.

Except St. Paul. For some reason. Seems like the closer you get to Milwaukee, the worse roads get. It's uncanny.

>>51533857
>any physicists of the time was still considered very much a possibility
Oh, you mean like how all physicists view Cold Fusion today. Very much a possibility, but difficult to figure out how to pull it off.

Yeah, real false equivalency comparing your scientific illiteracy to that of scientific illiteracy 200 years ago.

Cold fusion will be post-scarcity energy, which in turn will result in post-scarcity most everything else. Post-scarcity doesn't mean infinite you illiterate turd. It means "enough of this stuff that it's no longer scarce". And hydrogen is not scarce. It's literally the most abundant shit in the universe short of dark matter or dark energy (which may not even be "things" per se as we are used to).

And that's literally one solution to your bullshit problem. There are several more. Nanofabrication for instance. Biophysics optimization of energy efficiency. Space expansion and exploration (we already have the technology to terraform mars, it just costs 40 trillion dollars- which you bet your ass we can afford if the planet becomes unlivable and we need to scrap the military budget). Consciousness uploading would not only cure death and make time post-scarcity, but render the net consumption of humanity to just a few server farms worth of watts.

Christ, you are the saddest sort of individual. A dumb nerd. Basically no redeeming qualities across the board. No imagination. Narrow scope expertise. Curmudgeonly charisma. And probably not very fit either.

I probably donate more to the Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory than you get in grant money, you fraud

>>51534092
Look at this retard. Literally thinks terraforming mars would be easier than "terraforming" a troubled earth.

>>51534092
>And probably not very fit either.
Considering I work wildlife and have to run around the wilderness every other week to work prescribed fires and do field surveys and management applications for both private and public lands, I'm fairly certain I'm more fit than you lardass. Heck, just a week from now I'm schedule to renew my woodland fire worker test certification, so I can continue to work out in the field on more prescribed burn operations

Also, I don't get paid in grant money, Since I work for the state, I get funding based around revenue drummed up by either Pittman-Robertson dollars, or through state hunting raffles, and Inhale to use this money to actively manage all the resources fucks like you keep draining away and poisoning, and make sure we still have most of our naturally occurring species and ecotypes while also fulfilling human economic needs and imperatives.

>>51534120
Of the solutions I named, that was clearly the most impractical. Even so, we know how to make greenhouse gasses and warm up an atmosphere. We don't know how to remove them or make shit colder.

So yeah, its a brute force solution that we've already *solved* vs. a complex but elegant solution we haven't found.

Seriously, do you think before you talk? No wonder ecology is in worse shape than psychology if this is the quality of asshats running it.

>>51534213
So you're not even a scientist. You're just a freakin park ranger. And you honestly pretend you know shit about physics? Seriously?

Ok smokey bear. You're pretty fucking delusional, but I guess you're pretty harmless. Good luck with the fires.

>>51534215
You've been arguing win at least two people retard, check he post formatting and word use.

Also, Ecology as actually been in decent sharpening recent years thanks to now having time to implement more continual and adaptive management measures, as well as more formal education practices Doug their best to eliminate many of the misconceptions society has drilled into people's head about nature and management since the 50s. Granted there are still many issues in locations overseas, and lobbying by people who don't understand economic incentives tends to cripple efforts for efficient management applications, but overall the field has seen and experienced significant improvement of the knowledge base and application in the field

I know some of my previous professors have made excellent head way in adaptive management and improvement for numerous species, such as Sandhill Crane, Alligator, Mexican Free-Tailed Bats, Killdeer, Pronghorn, Kangaroo Rats, Blue Grama, Fossorial squash bees, desert amphibians like Texas Spadefoot, and Mountain Pine Beetle and other insects strongly affected by fire intervals

>>51524470
>Oh God I'm going to Free Market!!
my sides

Here's a question; since adventurers are typically always traveling and often never really "live" in any specific country, do they have to pay taxes?

>>51534338
>You're just a freakin park ranger.
Wrong duchess, Park Rangers are Law Enforcement and PR, I'm the guy who does population estimates, genetic sampling and demographics listing, species inventory, tropic nutrient availability predictions, live experimental design, pathogen movement tracking and analysis, Wildland-Urban Interface management, and dozens of not her things, soil fungal capacities, etc.

I have to be equally skilled at biochemistry, zoology, economics, aquatic chemistry, meteorology, soil resesrch, and a dozen other disciplines, and have to weave them all together to create active models and create management policy in such a way that they can be effectively implemented bybboth professionals and the common rabble alike.

So wouldnyounplese forbidden your high horse, or are you the type of fag whom only feels worth in hisnfieldnofnatudy by demeaning other fields to fuel your low self esteem?

>>51534338
>le biology is not a real science meme
Get off of 4chan Sheldon,

>>51534421
I'd imagine a crafty legislature would levy excise taxes on specific adventuring goods, much like the 13% excise tax on guns, ammo, and hunting paraphernalia we have today

>>51534018
But where's the incentive for me, personally, use my money to hire mercenaries to punish someone somewhere violating NAP? Shouldn't the target of such acts shoulder the financial burden of defending themselves? You cannot expect people to act out of pure ideology alone, there must be profit involved.

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Thread is pretty much dead (past bump limit anyway.) But I'll post just a couple things if anyone is actually interested in ancap thought. Ancaps can vary more than you might think.

I'm the one who mentioned I haven't been very active in the ancap community in the last 10 years. It's interesting how much I see NAP brought up. I certainly don't remember talking about NAP quite as much as I see here. The idea of viewing involuntary associations as illegitimate may be a foundational belief of a stateless people. But really, other than their own government, people basically already believe that. So it's not much of a stretch of a big deal.

One thing we used to talk about was the homesteading principle. The idea is someone can originally appropriate land by going to it and using it and improving it and then thru that it becomes their property. States, are in part defined by their disregard for this and how they claim ownership of vast expanses of land, much of which they've never seen, some of which they may never see. The question is "by what right?" The US government, for example, not only claims huge swaths of land, they're not even always the best custodian of it. Many forests are significantly overgrown from firefighting but no controlled burns or clean ups. Most of their 'claim' to that land is fairly tenuous. It's really only a belief /in/ the state and their special privileges that allows this to happen. No one would believe /you/ owned land if you acted like a government did.

I saw someone mention above "corp city." Ignoring for a moment "corporation" is a legal distinction created by governments, that certainly is a way you could go with market anarchism. One place to look is Heathian Anarchism. (Spencer Heath wrote a book Citadel, Market and Altar, his son, Spencer Heath MacCallum followed up with a book The Art of Community.)

In Heathian thought an organization or company may go build a city or town or facility. And they could lay down services like roads, power, water etc. And then they could rent out space to live there. Maybe you'll sign a 1 year rental agreement (just like renting a house or apartment now, for most areas) and then you can either stay or move to another town that's providing better value to consumers.

I kind of like to imagine a realistic (but future) example of this may be in space colonies. Lets say a corporation grabs an asteroid a mile or two across and hollows it out, maybe sells or uses the inner core if it's worth anything, and then puts a rotating habitat inside that a couple thousand people can live in. They then offer you the choice to come rent a space. Or you could go grab your own astroid and start your own city or build your own dwelling.

This is assuming the governments didn't get there first. In which case I'm sure someone stuck a flag in an astroid now that country "ownes" all astroids in .4 AU of there. gg

>>51525894
>>51534789
Just keep in mind, there's actually not much to this question that has to do with anarchism. Could easily turn this question into one about a small country

>What's stopping megacorps from hiring mercs in greater numbers and more powerful than the small country's army and declaring them-self the prince of the country?

There's a lot of things. One of the major problems is you can't /really/ rule over a people who don't, at least in the majority, see your rulership as fundamentally legitimate. If most people don't want you, you don't have rule, you have continuous war.

>>51534930
>ownes
owns* of course

>>51534446
Christ, anon, get a little flustered there at the end?