/CofD/ &/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

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>>51464618

I'm surprised that the Vampfags haven't come out spamming Cain's non-canon 'YOU LOSE' character sheet. Or spew bullshit about his seven-fold curse of God without realizing it isn't even his power that's protecting him. Not to mention that Archmages are possibly stronger than God in the first place.

Yeah, Masqueraders have always been the biased scourge/plague of White Wolf and it annoys me to no foreseeable end.

Can the mage fans stop masturbating in the public threads. We know you love your power fantasies, but we'd like to keep the general free of sperg

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BESTet coming through, all other Fera and splats can get the fuck out.

>>51463635
If you're still around...

Are there any gifts or rites or fetishes that allow you to grow plants at explosively large rates?

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>>51465436

>What is the most WoD/CofD-esque manga?

None of them really fulfill that role as they tend to be more focused universes. I'd say Wolf Guy is a very shitty attempt at capturing Werewolf's feel, dragged down by edgy Japanese shit and lots and lots of pointless rape.

Can the vampire fans stop masturbating in the public threads. We know you love your beloved Cain, but we'd like to keep the general free of sperg

>>51465503

I seem to recall there was something in Children of Gaia. You'd think it'd be a Red Talon rite or Gift, but no, theirs tend to be more 'lets punish humans because fuck them'.

>>51465452
>>51465520

Is it the Cain hating hour?

>Forces 9 - Make new fundamental force that permeates the entire universe "naturally" transforming Vitae into sunlight. Every single Vampire is now dead. Including Cain.

>>51465542
I didn't find it yet, but started searching for 'plant' and Child of Gaia rites and found this gem

Rite Of The Teachers · [ Tribebook: Children Of Gaia — Page 70 ]

This rite is for Children of Gaia only. This rite involves using the teacher plants of Gaia (hallucinogenic plants) which have had their spirits Awakened (using the Rite of Spirit Awakening). The ritemaster must prepare the plants carefully and then use them in the appropriate manner (such as smoking jimson weed or eating sacred mushrooms). Note that the use of the plants is forbidden in some cases by human law.

System: For each level of bashing damage that the Garou takes from exposure to the drugs in question, the Gauntlet is effectively lowered by one for the purposes of using Gifts or rites or stepping sideways. The reduced difficulty lasts for five minutees after the completion of this rite.

werewolf is such a 10/10 game. Perfect for LARPing too.

>>51465580
Is it that easy? Damn.

>>51465436
I found Seraph of the End to have a nice WoDish feel. Gantz. Black Butler. Umineko.

>>51465589

Get blazed, fuck the Gauntlet.

>>51465580
>Every single Vampire is now dead. Including Cain.
assuming that they dont have biothaum and have already changed their diet away from blood and into something else. like air. no actual vitae in them soo..

>>51465436

Anime & Manga just doesn't mix well with the WoD settings, both old and new. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a weeaboo in denial.

>>51465730
Wouldn't it still be vitae that ended up in their body, no matter how they got it?

>>51465774
maybe. assuming you dont change yourself to not be powered by vitae. of course anyone with protean 10 could just turn into the sun and ignore it. with enough thaum you can ignore sun. fortitude also does it.

>>51465730

The Archmage could always switch out Vitae in favor of "every Kindred ever"

No leech is safe

>>51465753

>what is KotE, Hengeyokai, Damphyr

>>51465814
Might as well have the Archmage go over-kill and make an "erase kindred" force instead of the vitae-sunlight one. Not even Ennoia is going to survive that.

>>51465708
I found a solid totem spirit for a getting blazed during game pack.
Its not doing drugs guys, its hardcore LARPing.
Soma

Source: Stargazer Tribebook, p.54

Background Cost: 5

Soma is a psychedelic plant totem who must be contacted through eating sacred

mushrooms. She will provide her children with visions and images of enlightenment,

providing symbols and mantras for their progress in Understanding.

Pack Traits: Children of Soma gain +3 to Enigmas dice pools and +1 to their

Rituals Knowledge.

Ban: Soma will give bad trips to those who seek her only for selfish purposes.

>>51465436

>What is the most WoD/CofD-esque manga?

I'd shop around for ideas but none have a very good direct translation.

I guess Witch Hunter Robin was popular for a little while?

>>51465580

Are the Archmasters actually this powerful?

>>51465961
oWoD- Unplayble yes
nWoD- Playable yes

>>51465984
>What is Masters of the Art

>>51465520
>>51465580
Can the mage fans stop masturbating in the public threads. We know you love your beloved spheres, but we'd like to keep the general free of sperg

>>51466001
The point stands. :-3

>>51465961

Archmages will buttfuck Cain a thousand times in a thousand different ways.

>>51466016

No reason to care about shit that will never happen in an actual game. Just hide or report them.

>>51465961
>Are the Archmasters actually this powerful?

Ascension's Forces 9 is the most overpowered ability in the entirety of the old and new WOD/CofD.

>>51465984
>oWoD- Playable yes
>nWoD- Playable yes

Fixed

>>51466055

They don't even bother to define what 10 dot Spheres are capable of. Scary stuff to consider.

>>51465961
None of the mage supremacist faggots have actually played the game, are just god modding, and chances are mages in either oWoD or CofD have more to do than antagonize kindred

>>51466093
>None of the mage supremacist faggots have actually played the game

I'm sorry that you never bothered to pick up a book in your life, Anon.

>>51466093
>ages in either oWoD or CofD have more to do than antagonize kindred

Of course, for mages, antagonizing kindred is like kicking puppies or stealing candy from a baby. Mages usually ignore the leech insects and focus on important matters.

BTW, have you ever actually read either Masters of the Art of Imperial Mysteries? The powers are freakin' ludicrous.

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What Hengeyokai would you play, /wodg/?

Pic related is mine.

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>>51466191
>Not playing a Sami-Bito

>>51466055
>most overpowered ability in the entirety of owod
>still cant just exist on earth.

I want to run a VtM game, but I've only ever played nWoD (Mortals and hunters) and know its rules system very well.

I've read VtM revised edition's rules and I think I could grasp it if I needed to, but I'd hate to try and get rid years of nWoD experience.

Is there a good way to bring the VtM elements to VtR with little hassle?

>>51466421
Only until the Consensus is broken

>>51466559
>genocide of mankind

>>51466556
I would just play VtM. It's better than Requiem anyway.

>>51466559
>>51466559
consensus dont have shit to do with the avatar storm.
>magefag doesnt know anything about mage
story checks out

>>51466807

>Doesn't know about the Deep Umbra

>>51466556
What parts do you want to combine? If you want to use NWoD rules with Masquerade lore, there's a Translation Guide that helps out with that.

>>51466869
>thinks the deep umbra is on earth
fucking magefags.

>>51466895

Ok. This is an obvious troll.

Gentle reminder: shitposting is not welcome here. Go to /b/ and rant all you like there, no-one will stop you. This board, however, is for discussing games, and this thread is for discussing World of Darkness or Chronicles of Darkness.

For the rest of you, do not reply to shitposters. Report them and watch as their pitiful mewling disappears from sight.

>>51466912
you being retarded doesnt make me a troll.

>>51466895
No one is this stupid...

>>51466936
magefags tend to be really dumb.

Sons of Ether fans: have you seen Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow?

Ray guns!
Giant robots!
Crazed scientists with plans to destroy the earth!
Zeppelins!
Gwyneth Paltrow getting punched in the face!

It has everything, I tell you.

>>51466946
Can we call them ascensionfags instead?

I just want to play a roleplay heavy low-level Mage the Awakening 2e game, why is that so hard to do.

>>51465436
Clamps X
The most mage you can mage in a setting

Hay guys, in werewolf the Apocalypse how do you convert a Hive back into a Caern?

>>51467106
I think there's a Rite of Cleansing? No-where in the Canon has it ever referred to such a feat being attempted, and you'd have to pick a Hive carefully to even try. Trinity Hive would fail on principle, due to the massive radiation levels, so you'd need to find a Hive you could decontaminate somehow.

In any case, you're looking at a Chronicle based around that alone. You'd need allies, you'd need powerful fetishes and gifts, and then you'd have to hold ground against wave upon wave of Banes, BSD's, Thunderwyrms and the occasional Nexus Crawler. Jaysus, what a story. You'd be rolling dice for three days.

I say go for it.

>>51467082
How about you just act with the respect you'd like to be given in turn? Chan access is a privilege, not a right. Mods take a dim view of anyone coming here solely to start trouble. Juvenile attitudes of "my splat is better than your splat" benefits no-one.

>>51467172
Any ideas on a good pack totem to follow for spear heading such a crazy task?

Is Beast as shitty as everyone says it is?

>>51467206
The Grondr are extinct due to the War of Rage, but they had a few Gifts that related to consuming Wyrm taint without suffering any consequences... plus they could throw down, so, maybe, Razorback?

>>51467244
Probably shittier.

>>51467198
Hiro, please.

But seriously, that's good advice. Ignore/hide the shitposters.
or else they'll end up at your table.

>>51467244
It depends on what you define as "shitty".

I don't like it for a number of reasons. I think it goes out of it's way to justify, minimise and excuse what amounts to Beasts running around abusing people. I don't like it because there is no Beast society, no IC reason for them to co-operate with each other or anyone else except for buff bonuses like a D&D bard. I don't like it because with a powerful enough rape dungeon and the right starting stats, Beasts can twat someone with a skyscraper. I don't like it because the entire book is unspeakably smug. I don't like it because somehow the Beasts are okay for ruining people's lives, but the Heroes that try to stop them are somehow awful people, even though they created by forces they can't control and didn't choose. I don't like it because of the catty social commentary (Heroes wearing fedoras, references to Gamergate, Beasts that feed entirely on internet butthurt and rules for doxxing). Finally, I don't like it because we really didn't need another fucking splat that hadn't been mentioned up until now - what we needed, what we continue to need, are timely releases of supplements for existing game lines. What we have instead is a company obsessed with spreading itself thinner and thinner, depleting it's resources writing utter dross like Conquering Heroes while kickstarter backers are forced to endure additional delays on products they have literally already paid for, in some cases, up to three times what the product will eventually retail for.

>>51467244
Consider this thread. Its probably not as bad as the ascensionfags

>>51467244

It's the weakest game of the CofD line, that's for sure.

>>51467244
Mechanically it ranges from poor to crazy overpowered, with no real rhyme or reason.
Thematically, you play as a terrible person at best and something worse than the worst of humanity at worst.
Read the pdf and find out if you want to have an excuse to be awful. The actual play log is an interesting read, but for all the wrong reasons.

>>51467198

Calm down, ma'am

>>51465580
So why does the universe exist if there are beings capable of blowing it up in one massive angry wank ritual?

>>51467696
You haven't angered them enough yet.

>>51467696
because no mage can actually live long enough to gain all the powers magefags wank too.

>>51467732
But some clearly do

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>>51466219

more like Samurai-Bito amirite

Please tell me i'm not the only one who plays them with katanas and trenchcoats and anime as fuck outfits?

>>51467756
not really.

>>51467696
It's heavily implied that to reach that level of power you have to lose your marbles. There are references to 100 Archmages amongst the Traditions and roughly the same number amongst the Technocrats, but there are really only 6 or so mentioned with names and stats. Of those 6, they are to a man, batshit insane.

Medea has gone full Marauder. Voormas has a fear of death, so he plans to freeze time. Dante exists at multiple points in space at once. Porthos wanders naked through the halls of various chantries singing to himself, and literally ends the life of anyone who touches his yoghurt.

Finally, the Ascension scenarios that involve beings with sufficient power moving to "end it all" usually involve prolonged rituals, super-rare items and long plots, allowing a rag tag team of adventurers long enough to uncover those plans and try to stop them. Emphasis on "try" - Voormas had such lethal levels of Quiet that whoever killed him got infected by it and tried to finish what he started.

>>51466556

Both of these are accurate.

>>51466648
>>51466883

owod is actually pretty okay in my experience until people hit a certain XP/discipline threshold. Just ask about which ones (or which players, rather) are going to be a problem for 'game balance' and I use this term loosely! and you'll probably get a hundred suggestions on how to work around it in-system.

>>51467696
the default assumption provided is that these beings are preventing each other from changing the universe.
They may not like the universe, but all their stuff is there.

>>51467770
>anime as fuck outfits
Can you even make an eastern shifter without this? Its pretty much how the books were written. The Eastern Corax are all katana masters with Gifts to back to back it up ffs.

>>51467778
Why was the book made then?

>>51467051

It was pretty mediocre but had a few visual ideas that were neat. I regret that it didn't kick off a series of higher budget B-movies of the same classic styling.

>>51467106

>>51467172

iirc a Children of Gaia elder did it once, but that was in one of the tribe novels.

But yeah its basically ST fiat at the end of the day.

>>51467819
so people could wank to it.

>>51467172

Not to shitpost, but...

Could a Mage actually help with removing the Wyrm taint from a trinity hive?

>>51467290

Clearly anon should redeem and purify the Skullpigs.

>>51467788

You don't need story long rituals to cast Archmagic in MotA. I long concluded that Voormas was working torwards his seventh Sphere in order to halt the wheel. He only had 6 Entropy when he needed 7 to do what he did. His second character sheet also lists him at 7. Coincidence?

>>51467861
Playing that plot would be so much fucking fun. Imagine all the cool disgustingly wyrm tainted things you'd have to kill along the way! Any good story teller would require a trip to the atrocity realm for some reason too.

>>51467870
That's exactly how it happened.

>>51467897

Malfeas is a pretty cool place. The Umbra in general needs to get used more.

>>51467796
He asked about using NWoD ruleset though, so I suggested the Translation guide. Switching back and forth can be hard on some players, especially with things like how action economy functions in OWoD vs. NWoD, or things like 4-roll vs. 1-roll resolution, variable TNs and success threshold vs. just success threshold, and if he uses it, the declare-resolve reverse order method.

I play a lot of both, so it's not a big deal for me to eyeball, but... if he asks more, I'm sure we all can come together to help him/her out in their quest for awesome vampire RP.

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>>51467804

>mfw Holden went out of his way to assrape the Gifts of a lot of Eastern shifters, especially Bastet and Simba/Khan in particular

Why did they let the Exaltednigger write the W20 rules again?

>>51467804
Don't forget the Ratkin ninjas, or the Hakken Shadow Lord Samurai. Two ideas worth stealing even if you never touch Hengeyoki itself.

>>51467937
They are the same as their western counterparts, but better, with super flashy gifts and black jack and hookers.

>>51467937

Nezumi are my preferred take on Ratkin in general. The western rats are a bit too deep into the gonzo drug addict slapstick nonsense.

I liked Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas as much as the next guy but an entire race of it? eeeh.

>>51467951

Western Shadow Lords are cool. Perhaps you are afraid of superior Slavwolf power?

>>51467848
The Changing Breeds are very sensitive about who they let on the grounds of their sacred places, given the nature of Mages to hoover up the Quintessence without due regard to the spirits, and many Garou consider the power of mages - Naming, they call it - to be stolen.

Despite all that, there's quite friendly relations between the Verbena and Dreamspeakers (fuck you Brucatto) and some of the Changing Breeds due to ethnic overlap and the right deference shown to nature and spirit. The hardest part would be negotiating something worthwhile for the Mage risking their lives and souls helping you out, without tribal politics labeling you a filthy traitor.

>>51467933
Okay, so what did Holden do that's so bad?

>>51468008

It was also Morke! Anyway, besides those two chucklefucks being allowed to work on any line outside of their abortion of a game?

W20 Changing Breeds is 'serviceable'. By that I mean it works in its own system. But if you compare mechanics to their Breed books - i'm going to focus on Bastet here as its my favorite Fera group - you'll find a lot of Gifts and other things shuffled around with not much rhyme or reason, especially compared to the general power curve of every other Changing Breed.

Some examples;

He took Khan Gift, Thousand-Thunder Strike (Rank 5) that's meant for buttfucking the Power attribute on Banes and Asura, as well as being a massive scenery destroying AOE. Its pretty evocative and useful given the radius, sounds like something an Elder would be doing.

He renamed it into a Solar Exalted martial art charm, Heaven Thunder Hammer, and made it into a really bland (and vague..) 'you hit everything in front of you up to 10 feet'. A rank 5 gift. The rank where changing breeds are summoning prehistoric megabeasts, summoning the sun regardless of what time of the day it is, assuming the destroyer avatar form in the likeness of Shiva or Kali, etc


For a less egregious, but no less annoying example, he yanked out a bunch of Simba-specific Gifts and replaced them with mirrors of Garou ones that don't even make sense or act as poor replacements. They completely removed Rising Sun (summon the fucking Sun, who is their big sky bro), Bountiful Dominion (cleanse lands, accelerate crop and vegetation growth in the area), and their own version of Dragonroar (Khan gift, shoot fireballs).

They also took away their Simba-specific Rank 6 gift, admittedly this is more of a plot tool for the ST than a player option.

Finally, in general I was pretty annoyed by Holden making a ton of Gifts have calculations or bonus effects running off of Renown ratings. That was never in WtA mechanics.

>>51468398

(con't)

Is it actively malicious? No. He's just an idiot who should have been forced to work on his own deformed baby of a game. Its clear there wasn't too much thought put into a lot of these, just someone trying to half-ass a 'course correction' on what they saw as dodgy math from WtA Revised.He didn't put a lot of effort in.

In general I'd urge people to read and use the Breedbooks anyway. The W20 Changing Breeds book is such a condensed cliff-notes version of them with a great amount of copy-paste mirror Gifts, rites, and so on being done that it seems like a waste of money unless you really like the art.

>>51468398

Oh right, I forgot to add, the W20 Garou don't have Renown baked into the calculations on any of their Gifts (as of me reading their gift section again) but it sure as fuck is splattered all over W20 Changing Breed charms.

There is no consistency or logic to this. Maybe back in the day Holden was a big WtA and his favorite Garou character was raped to death by a pack of angry Fera?

>>51468549
>Garou character was raped to death by a pack of angry Fera
Most of the stories I hear have it going the other way.

>>51468803

>Holden played a rapist Garou and that's why he can't stop his defenestration over his shitty Abyssal charm sets

well that explains some things

>>51467870
>long rituals
>20sux godlike feats

>>51467244
Yes and no and yes again. Yes it's bad, and you'd never catch me playing a game of Beast or a game with a Beast player or a game where the existence of Beasts are acknowledged, but sprinkled throughout are neat examples of the game could have been, like the Sleeping Beauty Hero and some creepy as fuck Hunger examples, but then all of that is rendered moot by the fact that it's a hot mess that contradicts itself all the time, mechanically and thematically, and that the whole thing reads like a geek who was bullied and ostracized wrote the thing to vent some personal issues and indulge all his fantasies. The story example follow Ben, from his mommy-obsessed youth to his teenage years as a fully realized Beast who beats up bullies and makes out with trans crossdressing vampire hookers.

Just do what I do and pretend it isn't actually a part of CofD.

>>51467244
The only reason Beast isn't ten for ten out of embodying negative stereotypes of what WoD players are like is that goth went out of fashion.

>>51468398
>>51468549
>>51468434

Jesus H. Christ. And here I was, thinking the 20th Anniversary damage was limited to Mage.

Thanks for the heads up, Anon. I'll strike W20 off my list and focus on picking up the older books.

What the fuck is going on with that company? "If It aint broke, break it to pieces" seems to be their motto these days. It makes me genuinely afraid for what they're going to do to Wraith.

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Still looking to see if anyone wants to get a Vampire: The Requiem 2e game together or is recruiting for one.

Willing to run or play.

>>51468999

W20 Core Rulebook is actually decent but that's because a lot of it is just copy and pasted mechanics from WtA Revised with some wording clarifications and a cleaned up core rules.

I'd still get the 2e and Revised Tribebooks and the other Revised books though. You can't make up for all of the missing lore. Plus the 2e Tribebook intro comics were fantastic.

>>51468999

It won't really matter with One World of Darkness happening. They'll have to stick to CofD and milking what's left of the 20th Anniversary stuff.

>>51469196

Makes me wonder if Paradox will ever cut the licenses to OP, or even try to crack down on CofD. Especially if they're trying to push a single World of Darkness as a multimedia thing.

Would be kind of bad to have that hanging around confusing people, wouldn't it?

>>51469196
That, too, makes me worry.

The last time we were treated to "one man's vision" of the World of Darkness, we got Monte Cook.

>>51469301

Monte Cook is a hack and a huge faggot. Elricsson is an hardcore fan LARPfag though, beware if you play the ttrpgs. If anything i'd be worried about him not willing to change things enough to fit it into the modern day, especially rules-wise or with all of the splats now sharing a universe and metaplot.

>>51469301

I don't think Monte Cook actually cared. He just writes whatever nonsense tickles his fancy and gets signed checks at this point because every fucking 40-something mouth breather loved Planescape as a teen.

>about 2300 at GMT-8
>0200 at GMT-5

>Mage shitposting has come to a halt along with posting in general

Right now its prime time for Aussie posters too so it can't be them. Maybe our shitposters are Yuro brats who had to finally go to school?

>>51469523

I'd bet on it being Brits and east coast Ameritards.

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>>51469523
Mage shitposter here.

>never left

>MAGE SUPREMACY

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>>51469523
I've been hitting "report" so much my tracking pad nearly has a hole worn in it. Now, all may reap the benefits of this bitter harvest.

The shitposters seem to have this place confused with 420chan. There, as in pic related, drug crazed mods ban people very publicly for a Unix epoch or longer. Here, all bans and pruning occur invisibly. The banned shitposters can lurk - they can see the thread - but they cannot post in it. They are cursed to go without the attention they crave, and their delicious tears sustain me. I will not leave, I will not sleep, I will not die. I am training others to replace me should I fall. We will discuss World of Darkness here, nothing less.

>>51469660

We are not threatened by you, ma'am

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>>51469639

How do I know you're REALLY a mage shitposter?

>>51469685
We both know that isn't true, Jeeves. If it was. you wouldn't feel the need to post. I'm still not going away.

>>51469688
Well, he's dropping two word memes outside of /b/ so even if he isn't, he'll get caught in friendly fire.

Is anyone else anticipating Wraith 20 to be more copy-and-paste bullshit?

>>51469971

Considering that Rich Dansky is approaching the edition as the Wraith Revised that never happened, I can't say I am. The previewed parts of the book have been pretty good so far.

>>51469971

Probably.

I wasn't giving OP my money before, but I sure as hell wouldn't do it now.

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Did someone fuck up when writing that hierarchy thing for Mage? Because the Triat and Gaia clearly aren't Celestines according to W20 Werewolf core.

>>51470085
Phil Brucatto.

For some reason (most likely because Rich Thomas is an incompetent shithead whose only notable contribution has been artwork) Phil "Satyros" Brucatto was given total - TOTAL - control over Mage 20th Anniversary Edition. Only three other writers contributed to it, one of whom focused entirely on the Technocracy section. Brucatto is a talentless hack who thinks verbosity = quality, and who does so badly in the industry that he literally begs for people to donate on Patreon so he can cover his rent.

"How do you DO that?" was a fucking atrocity that should have seen OPP staff dragged in chains to war crimes tribunals at the Hague.

For these reasons - as well as the overpriced lack of quality inherent in M20 - even we, the collected Mage fans of /tg/, refuse to acknowledge this dumpster fire of an edition, ditching it for the wonkier but workable 1st, 2nd or Revised editions.

If we vote with our wallets, they won't hire Brucatto again. Hit them where it hurts, people - sales.

>>51470085

Triat vs God vs Archmage vs Triat

An endless loop of nonsense. Each gameline has their own idea of a supreme being. The metaplot was never coherent.

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>>51470172

>mfw I have never paid for a single OP product but have all of them, and many in physical copy

>>51470085
I like to believe that the Triat, God and The One are all separate beings.

Mages are apparently the broken shards of The One when he created the multiverse and re-align with him once they ascend, according to the Celestial Chorus.

The Judeo-Christian God that cursed Cain should probably just be a greater Celestine. It wouldn't make much sense if he was something other.

The Triat are supreme in this single universe.

>>51470085
The Triat is still a trio of bitches to Archmages, Anon.

>>51470300
>God just a Celestine
Vampfags are going to hate you for typing that

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>running V20
>allow bloodlines because I'm an idiot
>player wants to be a true brujah
>look up true brujah's power
>stops time
>player is a huge weeb

Do I just tell her to make something else? There's nothing wrong with the character itself and I trust the player, but it seems like I should reject this on principle.

>>51470251
Did you print them all out and put them in binders? Man, that's fucking old school. Takes me back to the early days of ripping off TSR products....

>>51470386
I don't hate anyone for opinions. Life is far too short to waste in buttfrustration.

>>51470620
Allow it, but keep in mind that there is a WAR between the True Brujah and the Brujah. At the end of tonight, there will be only one etc. etc.

>>51470300

Everyone knows God is the first Archmaster.

>>51469660
You better hope the mod doesn't ban you instead.

>>51465886
weeaboo in denial

>>51470620
Well there's no saying he will make Dio he could aso make:

Kira
King Crimson
Pucci
The guy from part 7 that could turn back time for some seconds
The future villain from part 8 (take note because he may be an actual time traveller or the creator)
John Titor
Okabe Rintarou
Homura
Amber
Emiya Kiritsugu
Countless others
Bill Muray

Or he could make an original character, who knows

>>51470908
It is the duty of users on this website to report others for breaching the rules. It would be counter-intuitive for Mods to ban people for obeying those rules and duties. I'm not replying to shitposters with "LOL REPORTED", I'm simply encouraging others to report them and move on. I'm also replying on topic and stimulating further conversation.

>>51470953
Is it really that much of a problem if someone makes a character based on something from another media? The White Wolf book for "Project Twilight" had a character that was blatantly Shaggy from Scooby Doo, loaded with Wyrm Taint and facial piercings. People take inspiration where they can find it.

>>51470848
Unlikely. It doesn't explain where Avatars come from.

Until Elricsson declares time in the WoD to be a flat circle, the matter remains one of pure speculation.

>>51470368

The Wyrm started to devour the planets in our solar system one by one. How are the Archmages going to deal with that?

>>51471095
The planets are now big bangs

>>51471095
Reminder: Archmages don't even know about the Wyrm without a dot in Wyrm Lore or Garou Lore.

Can't fight what you don't know about.

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>>51466191

Corax.

So I can be an edgy emo fuck no matter what form I choose.

>>51471147
Since when has not knowing something's name ever stopped you from blowing it the fuck up?

>>51471095
>Wyrm devouring planets

You must be referring to the End Times scenario for Apocalypse. The Wyrm is a total primordal, I agree. Definitely far grander than the Antediluvians on a whole.

Archmages on the other hand, can level entire galaxies, create new fundamental forces that permeates the cosmos, or just nuke the whole universe in question. It only gets all the more ridiculous when you add and mix the Archspheres. Combining Forces 9 / Prime 9 will enable you to remake the Tellurian in your own image. Wherein this new personal universe the rules abide only by your current knowledge of the Spheres you currently understand, effectively granting you your own personalized omnipotence.

The Triat just doesn't compare. Only God can compare, and that's a big maybe.

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>>51470620
>180 KB
> >running V20
> >allow bloodlines because I'm an idiot
> >player wants to be a true brujah
> >look up true brujah's power
> >stops time
> >player is a huge weeb
> Do I just tell her to make something else? There's nothing wrong with the character itself and I trust the player, but it seems like I should reject this on principle.

Nothing wrong with Temporis/True Brujah players, so long as they're aware of the bloodline's rarity and how the True Brujah would probably rather commit suicide than help any of the "rabble" that is the mainstream Brujah clan.

Also, remind her that True Brujah tend to only embrace academics and those with analytical minds and scholarly pursuits, and that their bloodline weakness makes them even colder by default.

So, over-the-top Jojo references wouldn't be something a True Brujah would ever indulge in, because JoJo is so fucking over the top it's ridiculous, whereas True Brujah are calm, methodical, and never seeming to get excited about anything at all.

Tell her that you can accept characters *inspired* by different media, but that stupid references or copy-pasted concepts will get her the banhammer. So, if you see her going "ZA WARUDO" with her character, then boot her ass out.

You could also let her play a Caitiff with Temporis powers, but again, be sure to ler her know that inspired concepts are fine, whereas stupid "LOLOLOL, GET IT, IT'S JOJO?!"-shit is not.

>>51471201

Each gameline seems to have their own idea/version of a supreme being. Apocalypse considers the Judeo-Christian God to be a Celestine, which is right under Gaia, who is right under The Triat.

As a byproduct, this is what gives the edge to the Magefags when arguing over their alleged supremacy. Incoherency is the perfect excuse for wankery.

>>51471189
My own childish experiments with high-order explosives don't equate to Archmastery, Anon.

Seriously, if you need to know it's True Name, you can't touch it. If you don't know it's there, you can't touch it. If it's one of the three basic pillars of the known universe, you can't touch it.

If you could, why hasn't someone tried?

>yeah, I could totally fix the entire Universe.... but M*A*S*H is on the telly. Get us another beer, Dante.

Either Archmages don't know how bad it is (they're not all-knowing), they don't care (they've got their own private obsessions) or they can't do anything about it (either not that powerful, or the personal cost is too high)

>>51471201
Archmages seem properly terrifying. I honestly didn't expect Ascension to be this overpowered. Is there anything capable of at least potentially challenging them?

>>51471299

Other Archmages. Perhaps God as well, but that is only theoretical.

>>51471299
It was considered so over the top that Brucatto nuked the Archmages in Revised and shifted the focus to low-powered antics on Earth.

Yes, nuked. The Archmages are walking Paradox bombs, so the only place they can safely dwell is in the Deep Umbra. The Deep Umbra was cut off by the force of the Avatar Storm, severing communications.

Masters of the Art serves as a perfect example of what happens when an author is not given any oversight whatsoever. Any game using it would run more like AMBER than World of Darkness. It stands alone, an abortion of imagination, like Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand, and although it's touted around here as the goddamn Mona Lisa of the White Wolf back-catalogue, not one person has ever volunteered a story of it ever being used at a table.

You know, where it actually counts.

That says a lot....

>>51471299
>I honestly didn't expect Ascension to be this overpowered
It's basically like saying "oh, now Cain turns up and eats you all" in a VtM game.
Or "an Ochemata manifests and annihilates the Consilium with an explosion of Nuclear force", in a MtAw game.

It's theoretically possible, but horrendously destructive to the game.

>>51471367

Brucato fucking LOATHES Masters of the Art with a bloodied passion. He had a short rant about it a while back. I have the link if anyone is interested.

>>51471404
Yes please.

>>51471406

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-classic-world-of-darkness/mage-the-ascension/391966-re-imagining-the-spheres/page4

>>51471424
Danke schön

Gimme a hand here. I want the following: A Thyrsus Adept with Life 4 and Spirit 4, as tricked out for physical melee combat as possible with his spells. Assume he's a fairly experienced character (which means they start with 35xp I think?) so after paying for raising Life and Spirit, and the needed Gnosis 4, he has 8xp left. Assume he's put his '5' in starting ability dots into physical stats.

How good a melee combatant can he become? How likely is he to blow himself up when trying to cast the needed spells?

>>51471497

I always hated the idea of playing melee oriented Mages. It felt so out of place. I refuse to answer this revolting question.

>>51471424
Wow, going all caps is one thing, but he goes to 90-point bold and red text. He really, really, really doesn't like Masters of the Art.

Also, he states that they (Arch-spheres) don't exist as of M20.

>>51471527

No. The Archspheres still exist. He wrote about them (more of a hated mention) in the M20 core.

He also labeled them as "canon" in his rant.

>>51471527
>Also, he states that they (Arch-spheres) don't exist as of M20.

Which is about the only good thing ever to come out of M20.

>>51471549

See >>51471543

They exist. He just won't use them. Barely a mention is given. I should find the page for you guys. But I'm just that lazy.

>>51471518
Ok, well you can make him really good at shooting instead if you want.

I'm just trying to figure out how to make a Thyrsus Adept really good at physical combat, and melee is my usual go-to for style reasons.

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>>51471497
>How good a melee combatant can he become?
Depends entirely on how lenient the GM is with his interpretation of the Shapechanging spell, which should practically be able to turn you into different creatures with just as much freedom as Create Life allows you to create them.

Because go Advanced Scale, and Instant Cast, and with a -10 penalty you should be able to turn into a motherfucking Dragon for about 15 seconds with a Rote.

So Gnosis 4 + Life 4 + Rote Skill at 5 + Order Speciality 1, spend Willpower. You have a dice pool of 7 to cast the spell, which is an Instant Action (one Yantra means it doesn't take any more than that).

All of a sudden you're a motherfucking Dragon the size of a Whale, with whatever your GM considers to be reasonable stats for such a creature. As well as a Size of 30, giving you more than enough health to soak any bullshit people throw at you.

>>51471571

I also hate the mental image of wizards shooting guns.

>>51471424
So according to Brucato the Spheres are already far more powerful than Disciplines and Gifts. This only validates how much more powerful the Archspheres are compared to what the Antediluvians can accomplish. Balance scaling was never an actual thing until nWoD came around.

>>51471543
There would have been room for them if he'd trimmed three of his bullshit rants.

That's the thing that offends me the most, really. More than the appalling layout, the shitty broken rules and the irrelevant art. Being told that there isn't room for actual content, and then pages upon pages of "father's thrusting cock".

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>>51471577
Alternatively, if Dragon doesn't take your fancy, you can create any other fantastical creature.
Perhaps a demon-looking biped of some kind.
Perhaps like this handsome fellow.

Or maybe even just a really large "person". A giant, if you will.

>>51471607
Yes, but again, that's only a problem if the Archmages gave a shit about Antes. Which they don't. They're too busy creating their own universe out there in the Deep Umbra and populating it with green-skinned slave bitches to risk their lives and blood battling ancient horrors. Priorities, nigga.

>>51471607
>So according to Brucato the Spheres are already far more powerful than Disciplines and Gifts.

If we're talking about what one mage could potentially cook up? Sure. They have the potential to create more devastating powers than any Kindred/Garou (that we know of at least). Thing is, a vampire can use their powers willy-nilly without worrying about getting bitch-slapped by reality.

Vampires can turn into a fucking dragon and dissolve themselves into giant flying bats in the middle of a shopping mall or on national television if they wanted to, and the only dangers are *social* ones, because vampires try to hide their powers and blend in amongst humans: at no point will reality step in and go "here, have some paradox and DIE!".

So, Kindred (and werewolves, etc.) have already-established potent skills and powers that they can use without fear of physical/magical backlash, many of whom can be reaaaally powerful.

Mages have more freedom and can pick and choose their effects, but at the price of always being scrutinised by reality to make sure they don't screw things up too badly by breaking consensus.

>>51465436
Pretty sure Hellsing's author was inspired by 2e VtM.

>>51465886
Trash, but even those don't mix will well with anime and manga even though they were intended to.

>>51471667
Yeah, "Mild Quiet" is fucking devastating. "Serious Quiet" is the point where you put your character sheet in the shredder and make a new one.

>>51471667
>Paradox

You forgot one thing. Mages are by nature hubristic, arrogant and elitist. Consensual backlash isn't going to deter them from annihilating Kindred, Garou and other various Nightfolk when they successfully piss them off. Mages going bat-shit suicidal isn't uncommon. They WILL take you down with them.

>>51471577
Are you sure fantastical beasts like dragons are valid? The text of Shapechanging strongly implies it turns you into a real creature.

I guess the same method still lets you turn into an elephant or whatever though. The elephant stats in To the Strongest aren't very impressive, sadly.

>>51471723
I don't see why it shouldn't let you.
The spell Create Life allows you to create fantastical creatures from nothing, and that's merely an application of Making, which lets you create phenomena from literally nothing.

An application of Patterning allows you to completely transform something that falls under the purview. There's nothing in Making which says it permits you to break a pre-existing limitation on the practice.

Really the only reason you wouldn't be able to, is because you don't understand how the creature would work.
Which means your first port of call should be to summon up a Atavism from the Supernal and gets its assistance in designing your Warform.

>>51471722

Um... Didn't forget anything mate. I kinda thought it was self-evident that of course a mage isn't going to let potential paradox and other backlash stop them if their lives are threatened... but nor are most mages gonna be stupid enough to go "Gee, I sure do hope I run into a vampire elder so I can show off my vulgar magic and damn us both to death or a fate worse than death! WEEE!".

There's plenty of reasons why most mages and kindred don't give two shits about each other and just try to stay out of each other's way, and why those that break that unspoken rule tend to end up dead or worse.

>>51471722
Didn't this happen in one of the supplementary books? A Mage went berserk after a Vampire killed her lover so she conjured up fiery death and killed 2/3 of the Vampires in the area before dying to Paradox herself.

>>51471748
Ultimately, the primary flaw of Create Life is that it doesn't create a mind in the creature, which means any Dragon you create with it will be as thick as a plank.
But if you can use that to transform yourself into the Dragon using Patterning, then you bypass that massive issue, as you can learn how to use the newly created form.

For Making to be able to create something you cannot generate through a transformation with Patterning is ludicrous. Making doesn't allow you to create a new Supernal symbol, it just means you don't need anything around to make it out of.

>>51470172
>If we vote with our wallets, they won't hire Brucatto again.
You're understating it anon. If we vote with our wallets the new White Wolf will take back its licenses from Onyx Path and Onyx Path will keel over and die since brand recognition is the only thing keeping them going.

>>51471748
Ok, well, assume for the moment that it won't allow a dragon but will allow a colossal, size 30 elephant with roughly the same effect. So our Thyrsus can become a Turbophant for 5 turns of combat with high likelihood of success. How much Paradox am I eating for going Turbophant, if any?

And the next question: How does the Thyrsus maximise his chances of surviving long enough to go Turbophant, and then actually surviving the Turbophant phase beyond (the admittedly good) having 30 extra health boxes?

>>51471760

That must have been one mean ritual. Unless she held the spell using Prime or Time.

>>51471797
And then White Wolf will hire Brucatto to work on their new World of Darkness Mage because he's the Mage Guy.

>>51471798
Does anyone have that set of information where Touhoufag statted out how to go full Mahou Madoka-Puella whatever as a Thyrsus and turn yourself into a paradox-free beam spamming devil-king?

>>51471814
No no that was as a mastigos

>>51471798
>How much Paradox am I eating for going Turbophant, if any?
Get a rote, and it's literally none. Unless Sleepers are watching.
One reach for instant cast, another for advanced scale. You're in the clear.

>How does the Thyrsus maximise his chances of surviving long enough to go Turbophant
That's the first round of combat, you have reflexive Mage Armour, and if someone's taken you out before you can even act? You have problems that even Life Magic can't solve.

>>51471808
You can also use Space to hold spells. Spirit too, but it depends. Mages are unbeatable in open combat when they can just snap their fingers and kill you.

>>51471814
No but I am interested in seeing it.

>>51471832
Also if you're using Life Mage Armour (of course you are), then get bitching Wits, and then even if Turbophant has a Dex of like, 1, then your Defence will still be based on your Wisdom.

So get an Athletics of 5 (then base the Rote off of it), a Wits of 4, Life 4, and your Turbophant form.
Then your Defence in Turbophant Form is 11, you're crazy fucking hard to hit, with 2+ armour for Ballistic and General (you can add more with Life Weaving).

And you're only using one spell, and one point of Mana.

Oh god... What have we done.

>>51471836
>Correspondence

We're talking Ascension.

>>51471883
>Wisdom
Wits, rather... You know what I mean.

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>>51471844

>>51471883
Only problem there is getting the high Wits while retaining enough attribute dots to also not be a bit dim and weak-willed. Although for just a Reach you can at least nullify the problem of giving into instincts accidentally while in the beast form, which mitigates that a bit.

What else can you do to increase your damage output while Turbophant?

>>51471919
You're a peach.

>>51471940
Eh, put mental stats secondary and you can slap 3 in Wits, one in Intelligence, then spend your Path-given dot in Resolve.

In term of other enhancements to combat capacity, Life's really all out of gas when you've changed your form.

If you can get Forces 2 then the Kinetic Blow spell with a Rote can enhance unarmed damage by Potency quite significantly, as well as applying Tilts such as Knocked Down, and Stunned. Fate 2's Exceptional Luck can also help.

You could possibly spend some experiences on an Imbued Item or Artifact for that purpose.

>>51471810
Unlikely. More like, Elricsson will hire a former LARPer from By Night Studios to write it all up, then test-play in house with his fellow staff.

If Elricsson gave a shit at all about the past, he would have gotten Rein (dot) Hagen, or even Achilli to work on 5th Edition. But he doesn't, so he didn't, and he won't.

>>51471767
But with spirit you have a handy vessel for your familiar/other spiritual allies to possess and manipulate.

>>51471940
A Space ward to make it harder for someone to grapple with you is always useful.

>>51465580
Now i only know the basics of Mage, but wouldent that more than likely trigger paradox sunce every vamp in the public space poof into sunlight and be attract a ton of attention considering the vast majority of vampires interact with humans on a nightly basis.

Also some vampires wouldent even be killed as sunlight doesn't kill vamps who achieve golconda or however you spell it.

Does anyone know why a city in India gave name to ascension from the vampire curse?

>>51474451
I thought it was named after the Magritte painting.

>>51474335
>golconda
If you get to that point its probably okay for you to be spared in the Vampire genocide.

>>51474451
The term is "Cultural Imperialism".

What that means is, White Wolf stole anything they could from every language, culture and legend on Earth, slapped a capital letter on it and tried to Trademark it.

Now their hubris has grown to the point where they basically lay claim to any generic supernatural themed TV show. Elricsson broadly hinted at suing the shit out of Hemlock Grove, for example.

>>51474589
While you arent wrong there are quite a few ways for vampires to be immune to sunlight once you are dealing with methusula or antideluvians. Plot device is a hell of a drug

>>51474683

How is Hemlock Grove even close to WoD? Might as well just sue Joss Whedon for Buffy while he's at it, never mind that Reckoning owes some influence to the concept of The Slayer.

>>51474683
Then the people who wrote that racist trash have the gall to lecture people about social issues using up word count.

>>51474749
Is Hemlock Grove even good?

>>51475007

No clue! Closest I hear about its quality is that it's "trashy fun".

Mage sounds annoyingly complex to actually play

>>51475312
It definitely can have a high barrier for entry for new players, which can get very annoying as an ST who isn't sure how to get everyone into it when not everyone wants to read every page of the books.

>>51475007
It suffers from Netflixism, where a show's episodes are clearly made to be binge watched leading some to just absolutely blow on their own.

As an overall average its probably a C at best, but trashy fun is still fun even if it isn't actually good.

>>51473759
Can you do Space wards at 2 dots?

Getting Shapechange as a rote requires buying it after character creation as it's Life 4, so there's only enough XP left to get to Space 2 if the Turbophant Thyrsus took Space 1 with one of his initial starting dots.

>>51470626

A bit of that, and a bit of people giving me their 1e books for whatever reason. Some were really disgusted by the edition change and GMC but I guess that happens with any game that gets updated.

>>51471179

That would be true if Corax weren't shitheels who literally can't shut up.

>>51471689

If you can't objectively explain why something doesn't support this mode of play then maybe you should shut the fuck up.

>>51474737

I always liked the Bram Stoker and etc versions of vampires where they were simply weaker in sunlight rather than turned to ash.

But muh pop culture........

>>51474683

Does anyone actually care if they tried to wreck Vampire Diaries or True Blood? The latter is definitely a shitty serial-numbers-filed-off copy of WoD and i'd be more than happy to see it die.

>>51475558
Not a ward sorry I tend to call all Space effects wards. Now that I think about it Space ••• would allow you to give yourself the rote quality to dodges. But to makes yourself outright untouchable I'm not sure.

>>51475766
Are you talking oWoD? The order dracul's gimmick is all about this.

>>51475312
>>51475324

It also requires a lot more work from the ST than the other games. People aren't joking about players and STs arguing over semantics and applied physics mid-game.

The only Mage game i'd play is Awakening, and that's like, a last resort option if Vampire, Werewolf, Changeling and Promethean weren't on the table.

>>51475312
It's slow and tedious at first but it becomes second nature by your second or third game.

>>51475833
I've had to get in physics arguments with aspies running Awakening too. Forces is a hell of an Arcana. Add in that its a LARP and the autismo was off the scale at times.

>>51474683
>What that means is, White Wolf stole anything they could from every language, culture and legend on Earth, slapped a capital letter on it and tried to Trademark it.
no they didn't
>Now their hubris has grown to the point where they basically lay claim to any generic supernatural themed TV show. Elricsson broadly hinted at suing the shit out of Hemlock Grove, for example.
no he didn't

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>>51475766
What's funny is that in VtR they actually had it both ways, since a vampire with the right Coil maxed out is basically just that while the rest tend to burn in the sun, but not instantly save for the most old and inhuman. And who was it who discovered (or at least re-discovered and institutionalized the research of) coils?

>>51475867
>>51475890

I really dig VtR for all of the subfactions and stuff like that. Yet I love VtM's ridiculous metaplot history though I wish Antes were left up more to mystery, as a vampire bogeyman instead of a guaranteed thing

Its hard being a vampfag

>>51472361

I thought Hagen and Achilli were terrible at mechanics and stuff. More lore and 'idea' guys?

>>51475785
Sadly, there just isn't enough XP to go round with even the experienced character build at 35 xp to get Space 3 as well as the double-Adept in Life and Spirit. The character can get to Gnosis 4, Life 4, Spirit 4 and Space 2, the Shapechanging Turbophant rote... and that's it. No buying up skills, merits or, god forbid, attributes.

>>51476002
Gnosis 4 Life 4 Spirit 4 with Space 2 is going to be a monster in combat no matter what the turbophant is just twisting the knife.

>you are a whoremongering rapist for fulfilling your duty to produce more Garou for the great war

People who post on the official forums are brain damaged, aren't they?

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-classic-world-of-darkness/werewolf-the-apocalypse-aa/1015018-black-furies-and-young-stud-kinfolk

>>51476158
what else do you expect? These are the people that defend the new sidebars

>>51474451
I believe it was stated that Golconda is the place where Saulot achieved this state after his studies with Xue (it still doesn't make sense to appear in the Book of Nod, but this is another matter entirely)

>>51474683
> Elricsson broadly hinted at suing the shit out of Hemlock Grove, for example.
Can you provide a link or something like that?

>>51476331
Obviously Ascension's consensus reality and its ability to change history is to fill all the plot holes in the other game lines.

>>51476331

Saulot is still a cunt.

>>51474890
because when they do it post 2010, it is progressive

>>51475312
Play the Technocracy. Since everyone has roughly the same paradigm and focuses more on Foci, half of the discussion is cut down

>>51476389
Hypocrisy is disgusting. And worst of all it wastes word count.

>>51476401
That's what I did. Made everyone roll science focused mages also one person is a basically all cyborg. Much easier than trying to get across the core aspects of Paradigm for new players when they already pretty much believe in it IRL.

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>>51476158
>that whole post

For real though I like werewolf but it can get kind of creepy if you look too far into it, but I guess that's the same for all the lines

>>51476433

I actually appreciate how unapologetic it is and how desperate they seem. And how archaic their culture is to continue those traditions for.. what, tens of thousands of years?

>>51476472
The game really only lets you play the bad guys because the Werewolves killed all the other possible characters.

>>51476492
blame Gaia for making a defective product

>>51476492

Children of Gaia seem okay, the other Fera can be cool dudes.

>implying the Garou are bad guys
>implying there are 'bad guys' and 'good guys' in the WoD

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>>51476158
>Be only guy in Black Furies sept
>Extremely feminist society so they think you're useless for everything except breeding
>Spend all day relaxing doing whatever until some hot bitch wants your dick
>Don't even have to be good at sex since she thinks you're worthless and so she does all the hard work
>Been doing this since I was 14

It would kinda be like being a (were)lion minus fighting other lions or supremacy

Gonna go fap real quick and come back, don't discuss anything important ok?

>>51476519
>'good guys' in the WoD
Its not my fault they wrote Hengeyokai.

>>51476523
Yeah but they're also all raging assholes that probably beat you

>>51476519
>>implying there are 'bad guys' and 'good guys' in the WoD

I mean the various monsters out there which just want to burn the world to a cinder or destroy it in another way are probably pretty bad.

>>51476523

I've always wanted to play a completely heterosexual Black Fury who is more into protecting the sacred places of Gaia and righting injustices against women and men than being an angry bull dyke who sneers at penises all day.

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>>51476534

Well they DO call their packs a 'Sentai' ...

>>51476539
That vampire dindu nuffin! He was just minding his own business looking for some tasty blood. Its not his fault the elders keep trying to keep him down

Why would anyone actually sleep in a flawed, normal haven instead of gitting gud at Protean and rotating where you meld+sleep? It's not like you couldn't still have places to store things and do work in.

>>51476666
>wanting to be a dirty hobo that sleeps in the ground

>>51476694

>not wanting to be a filthy immortal hobo

Good, should keep prissy metrosexual faggots like you away.

>>51476778
>Implying a Toreador can't find beauty in anything.
Don't want to become too exemplary at being a hobo, you might stand out too much.

>>51476523
Anon, being debased into a living sex toy purely for procreational use does a number on the psyche of a living, thinking creature.
Shit, it fucks up ANIMALS if you expose them to too much sexual input without proper socializing.
You are talking like it would be some great thing, but that is the kind of talk of a young guy who hasn't been there, doesn't know anyone who has been there, and still thinks that sex and sex alone is great because it is.

>>51467104
100% this.

>>51467390
Nailed it.

>>51476694
I'd pick not getting staked over being vain, honestly.

>>51476401
Better idea, just don't play Ascension.

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>>51477684
But what other game line lets you do all the cool things that Ascension does?

>>51477699

Unknown Armies

>>51477727
>Unknown Armies
Damn it. I guess you win this round. At least the new Unknown Armies book will probably be in my hands long before any new plzbegood 5e books.

But does Unknown armies really have star ships? I really need to read those books more.

>>51477795

Probably not full on MtAsc Starships, but there's clearly some influence the Occult Underground has on the space program, whether they know it or not.

So the Withstand of most Space spells is the strength of the connection you're using as the focus of the magic, but what about all the spells that mess with someone or an area rather than their connections? Like using Alter Direction to throw people into space or trying to set up a Ban?

>>51477961

it is only Withstood when it affects the target directly. Ban isn't something you can Withstand.

>>51471497
You should look into a legacy like Orphans of Proteus. You can't Paradox when casting Legacy Attainments, plus you get extra oblations for more mana.

>>51478028
What about when you're using a teleport on someone (benevolently or not) or use Alter Direction? Those don't really rely on people's sympathetic links (unless you're using one of yours to aim a teleport). Or Isolation, which directly afflicts a target but isn't about manipulating any one single link.

Just ballpark it or something?

>>51477699
Why even call it Mage when the only halfway decent way to play it is to focus on the science fiction shit?

>>51478116
I'm not sure but man do I love the Technocracy. Technology! Capital "T" exclamation point is the best Paradigm presented from both an ease of under standing perspective and finding inspiration from other media. And if you're feeling spicy you can make it a bit weird with human brain powered computers and other Pulp era Sons of Ether oddities (like WW2 Zeppelin attacks).
The other paradigms and traditions have something to offer but its just not as easy to pin to fun movie/tv concepts and inspirations.

>>51465580
>Forces 9 - Make new fundamental force that permeates the entire universe "naturally" transforming Vitae into sunlight. Every single Vampire is now dead. Including Cain.

Fortitude 10 is a Hell of a thing. Natural sunlight didn't even slow down Zapathasura, it took three Technocracy mirror satellites focusing thousands of times the normal intensity of sunlight onto him to bring him down, and even then it only happened because Zapathasura had just spent a week or so fighting three Boddhisatvas in both the physical and spiritual realms AND had just taken two nukes to the face, one in the Shadowlands and one in the real world. Not to mention that Zapathasura was more likely than not starving after all of that and had probably burned through most if not all of his vitae.

And lest we forget, Zapathasura was among the weaker of the Antediluvians that had actually made it to the Final Nights. It took him and twelve others with that kind of power at their dispsal all working together to take down the Second Generation, and it is canonical fact that all sixteen of them together wouldn't have even been a speed bump for Caine.

I'm not saying an Archmage can't kill Caine. I'm saying that if he wants to, he's going to have to do a lot better than that, particularly since Caine can canonically create new Disciplines to the highest level of mastery on a whim.

>Aulaeum
>When you gain Aulaeum, choose one Mage sphere. You are considered to have a ranking in that Mage sphere equal to your rank in Aulaeum. You may spent Vitae or Willpower (your choice) to use the chosen Sphere.
>You may gain this Discipline multiple times. Each time you do, gain access to a new Mage sphere.

Bam, now Caine has access to any Sphere he wants at 10. Remember that it's canon fact that vampires can get access to magick - we may hate Samuel Haight, but he was never decanonized. If Haight can cast magick, why not Caine?

>>51477961
the connection between areas. A cave and a library are realistically and symbolically different. Very low sympathetic connection. But you put a few full shelves of book in a cave, that increases the sympathetic connection.

>Ban
Primary casting cost is duration. that means potency you add to it shields it from disspellation or from attempts to side step the effect.

>>51478080
A benevolent effect can still be withstood but the target usually chooses to 'fail' so it doesn't matter.

As for teleportation and changing vectors. If they're in sensory range and the destination is also in sensory range there isn't really a withstand for that. So you can teleport someone into the middle of traffic. The only thing stopping you is wisdom.

>>51478183
>If Haight can cast magick, why not Caine?
Hes too Laissez-faire of a character to harness true Magick.

>>51478211
I'm looking at his character sheet right now. It says Correspondence 2, Entropy 3, Forces 3, Life 2, Matter 3, Prime 3, Spirit 4.

That's more than some Mages ever get.

Although, minor correction, he was never actually Embraced. Mea culpa. However, that doesn't change my point about Caine being able to make Disciplines on a whim.

>>51478080
Isolation is withstood by composure however.

>>51478183

>Says Zaphathasura isn't affected by sunlight

>Says Zaphathasura got killed by sunlight

You're clearly a biased moron if you think a single Antediluvian is a match for a high-level Archmage. These are beings capable of blowing up galaxies.

>>51471919
Dear fucking god.

>>51478183
This has been done so many times already. Cain loses to an Archmage. Can we please just discuss something else?

>>51478251
Isolation is also an arcane one effect. it is a compelling, not a weaving or fraying effect, hell not even a ruling effect

>>51478301
A greater Archmaster like The Unnamed would utterly annihilate Cain. A lesser one like Porthos or Voormas would be toast. 10 dot Spheres are also more of a plot device than 10 dot Disciplines.

>>51478285
>what is prime nuke?
True sunlight with the LUX maxed out and juiced with prime. That wasn't just sunlight

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The Ravnos Antediluvian almost died to 5 dot Spirit Nukes. Antediluvians are shit.

>>51478313
Magic is powerful.

>>51478313
Not him, but the question is more what's the spell actually doing.

If you're changing the properties of Space, then the spell isn't withstood, because that Space isn't going to argue, unless you're using sympathetic range.

If you're overwriting someone else's spatial axis, then the spell is withstood, because the nature of the spell is changing something about them.

It's not a perfect metric though, the spell Mental Scan is withstood while Know Nature isn't.

>>51478183
>Aulaeum
???
what is this and where is it found?

>>51478352
>5 dot spirit nukes
People often forget this. The Ravnos Antediluvian was charred after those nukes yet still dragged himself on. The solar rays were just icing on the cake.

>>51478395
Sam Haight bullshit. No one considers it canon. Similar to the Black Hand book and Blood Treachery. It also invalidates a lot of the gamelines.

>>51478285
I DON'T think an Antediluvian is a match for an Archmage. I DO think that if the Antediluvian is using regular sunlight to try and kill something with Fortitude 10, it is canonical fact that he is going to fail. Making all vitae everywhere shed sunlight isn't going to kill Caine.

It was a flawed plan. Make a better one.

>>51478324
>10 dot Spheres are also more of a plot device than 10 dot Disciplines.

Fortuitously Caine had 10 dot Spheres thanks to his 10 dot Aulaeum Discipline. Again, Caine can, canonically, come up with new Disciplines as the plot demands.

>>51478352
>The Ravnos Antediluvian almost died to 5 dot Spirit Nukes.

Define "almost died". Having an arm or skin blown off is hardly an impediment to an Antediluvian, and the principle problem, again, was that Zapathasura was out of vitae after fighting for a week straight against all the heavy hitters in the World of Darkness except other Antediluvians.

I don't get to run around feeling like a champ if I manage to sucker punch and knock out a guy who's just come out of 10 rounds of boxing with anyone who'd challenge him.

>>51478395
It's made up on the spot. Caine can, canonically, do this. It's completely bullshit, but then, so is Caine. That's the *point*.

"Aulaeum" more-or-less means "tapestry" in Latin.

>>51478471
Correction:

> I DO think that if the Antediluvian

*meant "I DO think that if the Archmage"

>>51478471
>I don't get to run around feeling like a champ if I manage to sucker punch and knock out a guy who's just come out of 10 rounds of boxing with anyone who'd challenge him.

Yes you do, its called kill stealing. Those werewolf packs that were trampled under foot probably got fucked on renown because of it too.

>>51478471

All of what you just typed has already been discussed 3-4 times over the past 15 threads. Cain loses. End of discussion. Go back and read previous posts if you want to know more about this. It's getting old.

>>51478498
>probably got fucked on renown
I think they probably had bigger things to worry about.
Like the fucking Spirit Nukes.

>>51478382
I'm coming at it as a gameist angle. the higher level effects are just better.

Think of the connections between people as the metaphysical social space between them.

Isolation is an application of stretching the connections between people. The effect of the spell is a social penalty and therefore combated by composure(the social defense stat). It doesn't snap them like higher level effects just pokes them a bit. Therefore it is compelling effect rather than a ruling effect.

Space used to be Correspondence, but they changed it for simplicity reasons, but it still has a lot of those same ideas

>>51478471
It's also canon that Vampires can't learn True Magick. Sam Haight is a valid example of the incoherency of the metaplot. Auleum isn't a good argument for this topic, Anon. You're just going to have a war between two canon sources.

>>51478515
I was in those previous discussions. It was never settled how the Archmages are trumping:

1) God,
2) "You Lose", or
3) Caine's ability to make up Disciplines on the spot, which can do whatever he wants them to do.

What happens when someone with Forces 9 fights someone with Entropy 9?

>>51478449
what are you talking about?

>>51478520
The local umbra there is now a solved problem though! No need for werewolves when there are no spirits.

>>51478471

>sunlight is a canonical fail to hurt antediluvians

The Technocracy seems to disagree with you.

>>51478471
>It was a flawed plan. Make a better one.
Alright, just have all vitae everywhere shed mega-sunlight.

>>51478449
>No one considers it canon

He's shown up in multiple published works across multiple editions of the World of Darkness, including W20's SAS "Skinner". He's canon. You don't have to like it, but you do have to accept it.

>>51478543

You could always have the Archmage mix Forces 9 with Prime 9 to remake the universe in his image. This also gives him omnipotence over it limited only by his/her knowledge of the Spheres.

>>51478589
See >>51478537

Canon vs Canon

>>51478543
We all collectively fuck off and play a real game cause archmages can't even play on earth or cast their own archlevel spell

>>51478528
Part of the reach system is trying to smooth out which practice a spell falls under. So that in you don't have to use a 'better' practice to do something that falls under the domain of another practice.

For example I want to give a guy a heart attack by stopping his heart. Is it life fraying or life ruling?

Personally I'd say it's Life ruling with a reach affect because controlling heart rate is within the domain of ruling magic.

>>51478382
>If you're overwriting someone else's spatial axis, then the spell is withstood, because the nature of the spell is changing something about them.
I mostly started asking these questions after looking at Alter Direction and realizing you can play merry hell with a person by fucking with their personal directions but as far as I can tell there's no Withstand which seems kind of powerful even for 4 dot mage juju since it does directly affect someone.

>>51478594
This seems to check out. Archmages triumph over Cain once more. Possibly even God.

>>51478594
in alpha centauri maybe, but then he's alone in his own glass bottle

Demon is more interesting than both

>>51478543

The Archmage vs Cain debate ending with the Archmages going up against God himself. Everyone concluded that he wasn't a match for a top tier Archmage/Oracle. His curse itself was by the power of God, not his own.

>>51478650
Doesn't check out at all. Thanks to Mind 9, Caine knows what the Archmage is going to try and do, and thanks to Entropy 9, he can stop it. Or with Prime and Forces 9 himself, he can do it as well, and do it first thanks to Time 9.

Again, every time Caine's power level has ever been discussed in any context, it's always been "he gets to make up whatever shit it takes for him to win." The sole exception to this was the "Fair is Foul" Gehenna scenario and that only specifically because Caine was beginning to doubt himself and his utter surety that he was right in killing Abel, causing him to weaken.

>>51475113
Best thing from it was the werewolf transformation from the first season. That was mindblowingly good.

>>51478543
>God
It was said that god was just a powerful celestine and that since it was hinted that an Archmage created the universe he might very well be stronger than god. It was also said that the sevenfold curse isn't an example of Cain's power, but god's.
>"You Lose"
The vampirefag that put this forth as a serious argument was ridiculed at length for being a salty idiot and it also provoked discussion about how Archmages simply exist on a higher plane of power than him, let alone wield more power.
>Caine's ability to make up Disciplines on the spot, which can do whatever he wants them to do
This hasn't been discussed yet, but I imagine the response will be something along the lines of how Spheres can pretty much be used to accomplish literally anything.


I'm not participating in this argument, just providing a recap.

>>51478543

>Cain makes up Disciplines on the spot

>Archmage does whatever he wants because 10 dot Spheres are the biggest plot device in the setting.

>>51478644
Adept magic is plenty potent.

With spirit you can throw someone into twilight where a majority of people can't do anything as you slowly poke them to death. With time you can summon the infant form of somebody into the present and beat a child to death. With matter you can turn the air around somebody into Chlorine Triflouride. etc.

>>51478669
Do tell.

No really, tell me.

>>51478698
Sorry. Vampires can't learn Sphere Magick. This is just as canon as Auleum. I'm going to call this a cancel-out draw.

>>51478630
Fraying or unraveling
spells that do damage start at level 3

Regen is a patterning spell that lets regen the heart at potency 6. and even thou Body Control, which is a rulling spell, lets you slow down heart rate it can't actually stop it.

No ST will let you try to pull this stunt. The beginning of the spell acting chapter lays out a lot of the the practices can actually do

>>51478698

The vampfags are getting desperate now.

>>51478740
actually vampires can have spheres. they just need a ghoul mage and the right power to borrow their spheres. its in the new black hand book.

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>>51478727
>With time you can summon the infant form of somebody into the present and beat a child to death

I mean I'd much rather make someone fight themselves to the death like that or something.

>>51478711
>It was said that god was just a powerful celestine

It was asserted. It was never demonstrated as having actually been said anywhere. I've actually poured over "Masters of the Art" and it isn't mentioned there, for example. God in M20 is given a spiritual rank as being the very highest tier, but the power of that tier is not discussed beyond the fact that it's as powerful as the Storyteller wants and Mage isn't going to make any default assumptions.

Any crossover with Vampire, however, will by necessity force God more towards the "omnipotent being who cannot be surpassed" end of the scale.

>>51478698
Wait how did Caine wind up with Spheres? And why was he right to kill Abel?

And is your argument seriously that Caine can only beat Archmages by essentially becoming one himself?

>>51478762
HA! Knew it. The top-selling splat will always end up with the upper hand simply due to glut of publications providing more options.

>>51478711
Masters of the Art heavily suggests twice that an ancient Mage "imagined the cosmos into being"

The people here really love to masturbate over Cain. He's just not comparable in any way, shape or form. Only by theorizing what God really is, can one make an argument for a being rivaling an Archmage.

>>51478745
You must have the older pdf. Damage spells can fall under any practice.

You know what Fuck this shit. I'm tired of the archsphere bullshit

page 66
Casting Difficulties
Most casting difficulties are based on the Effect’s Sphere
level plus some modifier. With the Arch-Spheres, casting
difficulties can quickly become stratospheric. That’s not a
big problem; any time the difficulty is pushed to 9, additional
difficulty increases simply require additional successes from
the die roll. Thus, if you have a difficulty of 9 and receive
one additional push, you now require at least two successes to
achieve a base Effect. This removes successes from the total
roll, so the final Effect is not as potent.
Because of the extreme difficulty in casting Arch-Spheres
and in achieving the necessary successes to affect cosmic
changes, most Archmagic is done through extended ritual,
with Quintessence. This is perfectly all right; mages should
have to work to pull off this much torque.

6+3 = 9 = 2suc needed to equal 1
7+3 = 10 = 3suc needed to equal 1
8+3 = 11 = 4suc needed to equal 1
9+3 = 12 = 5suc needed to equal 1

Thats not even counting the suc it would need to actually cover the earth. going by rev charts. Godlike effects requier 20 or MORE suc. And thats on the city level. and then the Correspondence Ranges at least 6 more suc to target anywhere. so going by the low end (20+6)*5 = 130suc at Diff9 . thats going to be suicide or a long ass fucking chant

>>51478775
>It was asserted. It was never demonstrated as having actually been said anywhere.
I was saying that it was said in the thread.

>>51478809

page 76
Paradox
Let’s face it — Arch-Sphere Effects always break the
rules. The question is really “How bad is it?” On Earth, Arch-
Sphere Effects are always large enough to have witnesses, no
matter how well the mage secludes himself. Sanctums offer
no protection, because making a Sanctum coincidental to
these Effects weakens the Tapestry so much the mage “falls
through,” his very magic twists the Tellurian about him and
catapults him into the Null Zone.
The real problem, though, is that these Effects are vulgar
in a way that violates the laws of Science, Faith and even Superstition.
Therefore, in all times, in all places on Earth, these
Effects must garner Paradox. Mages working countermagic
against these Effects can even increase the severity of a botch.
There are no special rules for inflicting Paradox against
Arch-Spheres. The Earth is a bad place to use that sort of
magic, and even in the rest of the Tellurian, universe-bending
magic tends to draw Paradox. Backlashes still take their forms
as spirits, explosions, flaws an so on. Not even Archmasters
of Prime are immune; their spells to banish Paradox can
create still more.


Do not try this on earth. Always vulgar always with witnesses. going by Rev again one point per level + 1

Assuming a free wheel of twenty boxes, and no backlashes
6 = 7dox/spell
7 = 8dox/spell
8 = 9dox/spell
9 = 10dox/spell

So in all due respect yes mages can be powerful. but in the same vain It's NOT as easy as magefags make it out to be

>>51478785
He thought he was right in killing Abel because his own brother was the greatest sacrifice he could give God, if I remember it correctly.

>>51478785

>Can only beat an Archmage by becoming an Archmage

Mage always wins

>>51478809
>>51478828

Archmagic deserves to be difficult.


...Until you can hold them with Prime and Time. The Archmage can now blow up the universe at the snap of his fingers.

>>51478803
yeah no I'm right

>2ed
Damage
A spell can deal damage directly, as in the case of a thunderbolt
or an enervating touch, or indirectly, as in the case of rotting
out a support beam to drop a house on someone.
• Direct damage spells are always either Fraying (•••) or
Unraveling (••••), and inflict damage equal to their
Potency factor.
• Fraying spells inflict bashing damage, while Unraveling
spells inflict lethal damage.
• An Unraveling spell may be upgraded to aggravated damage
for the cost of a point of Mana and one Reach.
Spells that deal damage indirectly aren’t subject to these limits:
A spell that causes a roaring bonfire to spread and consume the
victim inflicts the standard damage for exposure to fire.

>>51478785
>And why was he right to kill Abel?

He THINKS he was right, because Caine is an arrogant bastard who can't admit that he was wrong to kill Abel. But that's specifically in "Fair is Foul", a noncanon Gehenna scenario (none of the scenarios are canon). As I mentioned, wherever else Caine is mentioned, he is always specifically said to be able to create any new powers he needs as he needs them.

>Wait how did Caine wind up with Spheres?

Caine can create Disciplines whenever he likes, which can do whatever he likes, and he has full mastery (10 dots) in them. Ergo, he can create a Discipline (which I've called Aulaeum, "Tapestry"), which in all ways mimics any Mage Sphere at a rate of 1 Aulaeum dot equaling 1 dot in that Sphere.

Essentially, Caine has all Spheres at 10.

>And is your argument seriously that Caine can only beat Archmages by essentially becoming one himself?

More or less. Except he's doing it as a vampire, and he's mastering the Spheres with far greater ease thanks to his vampiric nature.

Archmages have to spend centuries or millennia to accomplish what Caine can do in moments.

And he's STILL less powerful than God.

>>51478630
>I want to give a guy a heart attack
Unravelling, Life 4.
It's not in the heart's range of operation to suddenly stop without something having gone wrong to force it to do so, so Ruling doesn't work, and Fraying isn't strong enough to so severely and directly harm bodily integrity like that.

Even then it might not be strong enough to flat up kill him, heart attacks don't necessarily flat up stop the heart, so you'd still need to up Potency, and reach for Aggravated.

>>51478857
>THIS

What's stopping the Archmage from preparing a whole batch of Charms capable of throwing galaxy bombs left and right? Charms themselves can be absolutely anything. Pre-rolled spells are already broken as it is.

>>51478471

Didn't the battle described with Ravnos Antediluvian conveniently not include any indicated archmages because... metaplot,,, and reasons?

>>51478875
Not any of the people you've been talking to before, and with little oWoD experience...

But that sounds like a crock of shit.

>>51478875
Are we really arguing that Vampires can use the Spheres? By Mage-canon that's impossible. Auleum conflicts with the entire metaplot. You're not using a very good argument here.

>>51478905
Because Archmages can't act on Earth to any real effect, because anything they try and do will smack them with immense paradox that'll kill them. Which puts them at a distinct disadvantage when fighting an Antediluvian, because Antediluvians don't care about Paradox, and so are free to use the full extent of their powers at all times.

The ultimate irony of the Archmage is that it is impotent.

>>51478921

It is indeed a crock of shit. He's using a crossover book that contradicts every goddamn gameline as his argument. The Avatar gets destroyed once you're embraced. This is canon fact.

>>51478896
>>51478857

mage still has to actually cast the spell, to contain and you still get the dox when it goes off

>>51478875
I don't really care about any of this, but Aulaeum is a kickass alternative name for Tapestry.

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>>51478867
Nope. Even if you're going to argue semantics. Life 2 can cause a blood clot and a nasty embolism.

So vampires are immortals but how long can werewolves kick around for?

How hard is it for a mage to become immortal in that he won't age? Is it something that any of them can do or do they need to specialize in something