Does the whole "DM forces that Paladin to choose between

>I've never had a DM who did it and I can't imagine the kind of person who would, unless they were some 13-year-old who just discovered edginess for the first time.

Well no shit. Most people got in to the hobby around then and suffered through groups with both poor rules understanding and hormonal teen issues.

>>51382508
But how many paladins have you played? Also on second note what would be most dick-way of forcing paladin to fall?

>>51382508
Undoubtedly those type of situations have happened, but it's mostly just a meme.

Like how everyone knows about "that guy" constantly perving on every female NPC, but in reality only a small minority of players actually dealt with someone like that in reality.

Surely if your deity is a just and loving one, he would not cause one of his servants to fall in a situation where there was no other option?

>>51383003
What a rookie mistake, to think that a deity is a just and loving one!

>>51382508
>A trolley is about to run over five men
>A fat guy is about to jump down and eat them
>Do you stop the fat guy, or do you stop the trolley?

>>51382508
Well, I have never seen that happen first hand, but I had DM made my Paladin fall for being 30 minutes late for a session. So I totally can imagine this happening.

>>51383036

poster here, most paladins wear bungee cords

>>51383095
Neither, the people die regardless, atleast fatty gets what's coming. Justice preserved.

Third option

>>51383154
You could've killed five people but now you kill six. You fall.

>>51383192
What a shit deity. I devote my life to kill the gods in revenge.

>>51382508
>cause him to fall

Can't happen, by the rules. Paladin's don't fall because of some cosmic game of DM "Gotcha!"
Paladins fall due to evil intent, not evil outcomes. Falling isn't something that "just happens" to you, it's a path that you chose. If you didn't choose it, you didn't fall.

>>51382508
So, what's the problem here?

You cannot do anything to save the ones on the track, but you have the option to push some fucker in front of the trolley as well?

>>51383557

The idea is the fatass's bulk will stop the trolley.

>>51383095
I can stop both. The fat man will slow the trolley enough.

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>>51383557
Broadly speaking, yes. But the fat man is reaaaally fat.
Like, "you're inclined to think he'll stop the trolley" levels of fat.

The correct thing for a Paladin to do here is rush down to untie those people.
You won't make it in time, but you did your best. Unless the fat man is a criminal.
Gygax says Lawful Good types can execute criminals.

>>51383594
Hmm, but it would need to be European trolley and American fatty...

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>>51382508
Lets do this for real.

>>51383652
Take the right fork, but make efforts to derail (in-case "unable to derail" is a deception).

>>51383652
Is this suppose to be a jab a utilitarianism?
Cause that only works in the immediate.

Close your eyes flick the switch and flip off the cartesian demon that may or may not exist.

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>>51382508
Mostly it's just a meme. Only the most douche-bag of GMs do no-win shit that results in lulz paladin falls. And usually just to pick on one player, or because they have a monster hate-boner for paladins (usually because of WoW).

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>>51383897
>I watched Rail Wars because I thought the finale would have MULTI-TRACK DRIFTING
/a/ lied to me

>>51382685
Getting into DnD before the age of ~16 sounds like a bad time, glad I didn't.

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>>51382508
>Does the whole "DM forces that Paladin to choose between two options that both cause him to fall" thing actually happen, or is it just a meme?

I think most of the people who parrot this haven't actually read the rules for paladins.

This is from AD&D 2E, but I assume it's more or less the same as newer editions.

>>51384215

This still doesn't account for 'placed in a situation where performing an evil act is unavoidable by factors outside his own control.'

>>51384215
There's no such rules in 5e actually. Paladins aren't even restricted to LG anymore.

>>51384267
>KNOWINGLY and WILLINGLY

>>51384267
Part of "good" is that means don't justify the ends.
You do the best you can, even if your best isn't good enough.

>>51384048
>believing /a/
>ever since the day the sauce actually wasn't Boku no Pico
You brought this upon yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQj8xOknzKc

>>51384781
I, against my better judgement, believe in the good in humanity.

>>51384845
Well *I* remain an observer to keep my conscience clean.

Paladins have too much baggage. People can't distinguish between "lawful" and "law abiding"

>>51384781

The complete lack of motion lines indicate the trolley is not moving at all, therefor I don't need to do anything besides untie the people on the tracks.

>>51384781
Not pulling the lever gives the 2nd best scenario and doesn't need co-operation

A paladin falls because he falls out of favor of his god right? What kind of scenario is there where the god wouldnt prefer one or the other choice? Gods aren't stupid, they know a trick when they see one and when someone pulls a trick on a paladin all the paladin has to do is pray or think which one his god would prefer. Classic Abraham or Jobe man.

>>51384781

I rush over and pull the single man off the tracks.
Then rush up and pull the next man off the tracks

Trolleys move kinda slow. If needed i can yell up to the yellow guy to take his man off the track. then so on and so on so that it runs over no one.

>>51382508
Most "memes" as we call them are old Neckbeard tales, told to teach a specific value of gaming. In other words, it doesn't exist because we made it a meme.

The same with Edgelords, Mary Sues, and Fetish Characters. Between the three of them, they basically give us the best way to make a good character:

1. Give your character reasonable, realistic flaws that round them out as a person
2. Don't give your character too many flaws or overly emotional characteristics.
3. Don't insert your fetishes into your character.

The third one is ignored the most, but otherwise it's pretty solid.

Now, if we could only push this culture on Roll20.

>>51385115
>>51385392
Alternately, wait until the front wheels of the trolley have passed the switch and then throw the lever to derail it.

If there were people in the trolley, they would have hit the brakes already.

>>51385539

Plot twist: The trolley is full of babies.

>>51384781
Pull the lever, let's see where this wild ride goes.

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>>51384048
>Rail Wars
>no wars, only harems

>>51383644
Specially an English trolley if the Irish are to be believed.

>>51387318
British trolley would be so late you would have plenty of time to untie the hostages.

>>51385018
Well I'm going for a high score

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It's the age-old test to see whether they would rather fail their God, or themself.

>>51383192
But he didnt kill any of those people, they all died because of actions done by others completely out of his control. If anything the god would want you to bring the people who caused this to justice.

>>51390222
This is retarded. You can't effectively wave at people inside a trolley from that close. You need a certain distance so that the people inside can actually see you for long enough to register your waving as they pass by, and even if the trolley were moving slowly enough, you'd still look like a loon waving with your face pressed up against the windows like that. The optimization problem is a curve, not a slope.

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>>51390279
You're making an outrageous assumption about the speed of the trolley. For all you know the trolley is at a pleasantly slow cruising velocity or approaching a stop. In this case it is worth it to be extra close so that you share a smile with each and every passenger.

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>>51390387
First of all, I addressed the assumption of speed in my post, you illiterate fucking dullard. Secondly, the objective is to wave - WAVE, here it is in big letters, to make it easier for you - at the people, not to smile at them. Look at how close he is to the track, and then look at the size of the windows. Smiling is pointless if they CAN'T SEE YOUR ARM, moron.

>>51382508
Spec Ops: The Line in a nutshell.

>>51390477
No, Spec Ops: The Line was shit because your options consisted of "commit atrocities" and "don't play the game". Railroading is a related but separate DM affliction.

>>51382508
Falling has never actually worked that way, some DM's are just shit.

>>51390477
Got to love the developers of that one. "When we give play testers a choice they take the moral option, lets remove the choices but still call the people who paid for our game assholes for playing it".

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>>51390459
Have you never in your life waved a friend goodbye from very near the tracks of very slowly moving train? A subway perhaps?

And did it ever once occur to you that he might also want the people on the other side of the trolley to see him clearly? This would be difficult if he was farther away.

>Smiling is pointless
This is where you lose all credibility.

>>51384781
...Fucking. Is this Prisoner's Trolley Dilemma?

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>>51390605
Waving to a single person is a restrained affair. Waving to a group must needs be grander, and both the increased range of motion and the presence of multiple people demand greater effective fields of view. I'm beginning to suspect you're legitimately autistic, if you don't even understand the difference.

>This is where you lose all credibility.
Yep, autistic. Way to misinterpret a partial quote. We're not talking about smiling, here - regardless of the possible merits, it's not the objective. The objective is TO WAVE. Smiling only improves the wave if the people can actually see the wave; it won't magically turn a non-wave into a wave.

>>51382508
There are arguments for both cases, but my question for this problem is why the fat man isn't jumping himself. If you're responsible in the case that you don't shove him, then why isn't he responsible in the case that he doesn't jump?

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>>51382508

>>51390823
Honestly, I'd probably flip the switch and haul ass to the track with one guy, trying to get in front of the tram in time to use myself as a barrier. After all, it works with the fat guy for five people, right?
Besides, that problem isn't about killing people, it's about choosing to let people die (the tram's forward motion isn't your fault). If you have to choose who to let die, I believe you're obligated to choose the fewer number of people, barring other factors.

>>51390812
What if the fat man is contemplating suicide? Would you then have the moral imperative to talk him out of killing himself, if not doing so would save five people?

>>51390921
Nobody has a moral imperative to talk someone out of suicide unless people rely on them or they are putting people at risk with their intended method. Its a personal choice at the end of the day.

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>>51390921
What if the fat man just parses syntax?

>>51390921
I'm not a mind-reader, so I can't speak to his motivation. Also, if I have enough time to convince him one way or another, I don't see why the main problem exists at all.
I can only hope his sacrifice was made with the right mindset, really.

>>51385530
>the best way to make a good character:
In your opinion.

>push this culture
The opinion of a colossal fag.

>>51382508
In my gaming circle, nobody has ever known anyone who had a paladin fall unless the player actively turns their character evil.

It's 100% a meme.

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>>51390078
Saved.

>>51382742
GM makes the gods.
He doesn't tell the paladin about her god's rules, just gives a short summary of the gods of the setting.
Suddenly he has her fall because she broke one of the god's core ideals.

>>51383630
Nah the real option is to allow them to die, then resurrect them.

>>51390078
Specific beats general. Holds for laws, holds for morals.
Lying is deliberately withholding information from someone who is entitled to it, or giving them false information where they are entitled to the correct information.
You are not obligated to tell someone jack fucking shit about the location of someone they are intending to kill.

>>51391084
Lying is not telling the truth. Full stop. You don't need to mangle the definition of the word to justify lying.

>>51391051
Is there a limit on how much damage someone can take before they can't be resurrected any more?

>>51391084
>You are not obligated to tell someone jack fucking shit about the location of someone they are intending to kill.
You also aren't obligated to deceive them by telling them an untrue fact. You can simply withold the information and say "I ain't giving you jack shit mate".

Deliberately falsifying information to someone is a lie, whether that person is the Buddha or Stalin.

>>51387347
The guy coming to save them would also be running late

>>51391128
For 3.5 edition, raise dead only works if there's enough of the corpse intact that their vital organs are still there. So you'd only be able to do so if they had all their internals in place.

Resurrection requires part of the body at time of death, so if someone has been disintegrated or turned to ash or otherwise lost, they would not be a candidate for resurrection.

True resurrection can resurrect anyone.

>>51390078
This is stupid. Lying in that situation is the moral choice, any religion that says otherwise or makes doing the right thing sinful is immoral. Are things like this deliberately written to make the biblical god look even more psychotic than he does anyway?

>>51391093
>>51391132
So is writing under an alias lying? You're identifying yourself by a name that's not actually your name, so you're not strictly telling the truth.
Like I said, no. When you write under an alias, you are withholding information, but the people that you're withholding information from aren't entitled to that information (generally). Posting on an anonymous imageboard falls under the same bounds.

>>51391149
The LG choice is to let the big bastard beat the shit out of you.

>>51391173
That is also stupid.

If you can protect both yourself and the potential victim by lying to the arsehole and pointing him in the wrong direction then lying is the moral choice. Especially since that would be more effective at protecting the girl than telling him you won't say anything. It also makes him more angry and more likely to hurt her even more if he does find her. What is Lawful Good about a course of action that is riskier to the innocent?

No sensible moral system requires you to get yourself injured or even killed when it won't actually help anybody. If you had to get in his way to give her time to escape it would be different.

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>>51391128
gurps gives dropping to -10xHP for 'total bodily destruction' - where the body is so damaged that it's more or less completely irrecoverable, usually because you've taken anywhere from 110 to 200 damage in a game where HP values rarely go above 15, and -5xHP is the point where a character instantly dies.
at this point, the ressurection spell in gurps magic puts a hard limit on reviving people at this point, when it's normally up to gm discretion whether a body can be revived.

>>51387347
British Trolleys are wheeled baskets that we push round supermarkets.

It would have to be an especially frail person to get killed by one.

>>51382508
Haha, oh man, I really loathe the trolley problem as a thought exercise, and the one with the fat man on the bridge just shows how utterly ridiculous it is. I mean, you study philosophy all your life, and THAT is what you come up with? Come the fuck on.

Either way, I've never experienced it. It's the worst kind of malicious railroading, and it takes a real scumbag to do it. That said, I've both played with and heard of real scumbags, so I wouldn't put it beyond them.

>>51391869
Be careful with statements like that: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=037_1372187059

>>51390976
Right answer is to push fat man on the tracks and activate multi-track drifting because they all violated your NAP

>>51391205
>If you can protect both yourself and the potential victim by lying to the arsehole and pointing him in the wrong direction then lying is the moral choice

Innocence until proven guilty anon.

You do not know his intent for sure, thus, withholding information based on assumptions of intention is morally wrong.

>>51392123
>withholding information based on assumptions of intention is morally wrong.
You are not under any obligation to provide him information

If you pick a character confined by a stringent moral code you are saying to your GM you want to roleplay a challenging role.

It is entirely reasonable, therefore, for the GM to put difficult moral quandaries in your path that test your moral code. You made a choice not to take the easy route.

Simply being a good person isn't the same as being a Paladin.

>>51392573
I don't even think you believe this, and even if you did, does it apply to clerics? Druids? Favored Souls? The host of divine classes with dedicated codas to follow that never seem to be tested by shitty GMs?

>>51391165
>So is writing under an alias lying? You're identifying yourself by a name that's not actually your name, so you're not strictly telling the truth.
>Like I said, no. When you write under an alias, you are withholding information, but the people that you're withholding information from aren't entitled to that information (generally). Posting on an anonymous imageboard falls under the same bounds.

An alias is not a lie, unless you are attempting to falsify your credentials. Withholding information is not a lie, because you are not attempting to deceive, but attempting to withhold information. If you say "you can call me Ishmael" when your name isn't Ishmael, that's not a lie unless you attempt to trick the other person into thinking your name's Ishmael.

Lying is giving FALSE information. An alias isn't false information unless you present it as false information - "my name is Ishmael" (actually it's Steve).

>>51392715
Druids, clerics, favoured souls, monks (have to be lawful), barbarians (have to be chaotic), a whole bunch of prestige classes with flavour things, stuff like pathfinder's path of war 3rd party martial disciplines, all require certain types of behaviour by RAW or risk losing powers or being unable to gain further powers.

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>>51382508

>>51383003
Good-aligned deities in D&D may be just and loving, but they aren't omnipotent. The evil gods have just as much power as the good ones.

>>51382508

I've never seen it. I'm much more familiar with the

>DM declares you fall after you did something reasonable because of bizarre pretzel logic.

>>51392882
More, you mean.

For some reason the evil ones have literally infinite armies at their command while the good ones have barely any.

What retard thinks that makes sense?

>>51384426
He knows that both options are evil, and by his free will he will choose one outcome or the other.

In practice, though, you're always allowed to do minor evil acts like eating and breathing without falling.

>>51392770
>Lying is giving FALSE information. An alias isn't false information unless you present it as false information - "my gender is female" (actually you're a man).

>>51392904
I think it's more of a quantity vs quality debate, the evil gods just churn out mooks because I guess they just want to rule over more people/stuff, or something. But good ones choose just a few to make hella powerful, and end up equalling armies by themselves.

I guess it could also be something about most people being weak willed and are easily swayed by darkness, the light doesn't give a shit about seducing people, and gives them the ideal of self-improvement, which leads to the same scenario.

>>51390976
Let the trolley run over the 5 people, then push the fat man to stop it. Then fight the demon.

>>51392904
That perception is skewed by the experiences of the average D&D party. Adventurers don't need to encounter angels because the angels go where there are no adventurers.

>>51390510
It's a commentary on narrative structure.

>>51392842
Only appropriate choice for a Paladin.

>>51393157
No, the forces of chaotic and lawful evil literally have infinite devils and demons while the forces of 'good' just have a pittance, and a wall that everyone who is an agnostic or 'atheist' gets theirs souls bound into for eternal torment.

Put at least one Immovable Rod in front of the switch and press the button(s).
>If a creature pushes against an immovable rod, it must make a DC 30 Strength check to move the rod up to 10 feet in a single round.
Depending on the trolley's speed, the rod(s) should at least slow it down to a safe speed. Granted, a DM that throws you into a trolley problem wouldn't give you Immovable Rods, but fuck it.

>>51391149
>Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them.

>>51392770
>all require certain types of behaviour by RAW or risk losing powers or being unable to gain further powers
No they don't. That's what always has been the most retarded thing about the whole thing.

>>51382508
It does happen. I know because I've done it myself. Why? Not because I'm being a teen edgelord, but because even though it's a fantasy game, I like to run it similarly to how real life is, in the sense that things don't always go your way, and sometimes shit just happens and you get the short end of the stick. Happy stories are boring as all hell, since you already know that it's all going to end in a rainbow filled circlejerk of joy and smiles, whereas if your players aren't certain about the future and the adversity they're going to face, it keeps the game interesting, and the progress a lot more satisfying. Plus, if you keep the game a bit more grounded in realism, you can create a lot of opportunities to test the player's wits with situations that don't normally arise in D&D games, like asking them where exactly are they storing all that loot and then looking as they scramble to come up with a logical explanation of how they're carrying half an army's worth of gear with them.

>>51391039
>woman paladin
Don't tell me you'd also allow women to be clerics. That's just wrong.

>>51382508
I've put paladins in the position where they have to choose between two different innocents to save.

They all fell.
Not because they picked one over the other. That would have been fine. At least you're still trying to help someone, I mean there is no way you can be in both places, that's unfair.

No, they fell because they chose to save no one. They condemned everyone to slow painful death simply because they picked the third option: not choosing

>>51393360
Whatever faggot, you've most likely never even DM'd a game in your life

>>51384781
Don't pull the lever.
The other men at the levers can go home to their families knowing they aren't responsible for anyone's death.
Keep anyone essle from having to make this decision and love with the consequences

>>51390078
As a child raised on plenty of whip and and very little sugar - I certainly would not hold it against the man if he volunteered the information either for the sake of his own conscience or for the convenience of saving himself the hassle. One beating spared makes no difference in the long run.

>>51390078
>image

To not lie AND not endanger the girl, all he had to do was admit he'd seen her and either offer nothing more on the subject or also admit that he's unwilling to disclose further information because father or not he doesn't trust the man with her safety.

Not sharing information is not a lie of omission; if someone walks up to me and demands my social security or credit card number I am absolutely not obligated to tell them and my silence does not make me a liar.


>>51391032
>always carries 6 pairs of monocles

Those are going to be some dapper-as-fuck prisoners, though not particularly well secured.


>>51392123
>witholding information based on assumptions of intention is morally wrong

Read above, then kindly share your full name, address, all relevant financial and property information, your fetishes, any and all embarrassing thoughts and experiences you've ever had in your entire life, etc. I promise you I, and my fellow Anons have only the best intentions and would not abuse any of this information in any way for any reason. Refusal to fully comply will confirm your hypocrisy and "moral" failing.

>>51392926
Yes, and?
People selling books under a pseudonym - where it is not made clear that the name is a pseudonym - are lying. To an absolute measure, that in some culture may be considered a sin. I don't personally give a damn, admittedly. But still.

>>51393305
>No they don't.
You're full of shit.
In 3.5 where paladins falling was a thing:
>A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities.

>A barbarian who becomes lawful loses the ability to rage and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian.

>A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons.

>A druid who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid loses all spells and druid abilities (including her animal companion, but not including weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies).

>A bard who becomes lawful in alignment cannot progress in levels as a bard,

Barbarians, druids, clerics all lose something for transgressing. Monks and bards can't gain further levels.

>>51391032
>>51393479
jesus christ, THANK YOU ANON! I've never been able to grasp how carrying 6 pairs of monocles ties into the cop-paladin thing until now, never realized it was just a typo.

>>51393479
>Read above, then kindly share your full name, address, all relevant financial and property information, your fetishes, any and all embarrassing thoughts and experiences you've ever had in your entire life, etc. I promise you I, and my fellow Anons have only the best intentions and would not abuse any of this information in any way for any reason. Refusal to fully comply will confirm your hypocrisy and "moral" failing
Not that guy, but your mistake is assuming I or he is a good person. It's not hypocritical if they never claimed to be a good person to begin with.

>>51393372
Sure man. Whatever you say. Not sure where this hostility is coming from.

For some reason I tend to attract players who struggle to make decisions when they imagine they are under pressure.

How hard would it be to say, "I drop my sword so the lawful evil priest releases the orphans then roll initiative when they are out of the area."

How hard would it be to say, "I'll rush to the orphanage to try to stop the pyromancer before he burns it down" instead of, "I cant decide, this isn't fair, I can't save everyone!"
Ffs no, you can't save everyone, but you can at least try to save someone!

>>51383095
Smash the bridge to stop the trolly, use paladin magic to heal/resurrect the fat tard on top

>>51385285
>second best
>in two scenarios
Yhat means the bad option anon

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>>51382508
>Does the whole "DM forces that Paladin to choose between two options that both cause him to fall" thing actually happen, or is it just a meme?
I wonder what the final iteration of the paladin trapped in a room daily thread was. The scenario was more and more convoluted and ridiculously expensive in time and resources for the BBEG to trap the paladin in a room with 2-3 buttons, each killing family members or random peasants or orphans.

>>51391128
Yes and no. The more damaged the body is, the more complex, expensive, and higher-level the spell you need to use to resurrect them. The highest level version works on "there's nothing left of them".

>>51391032
Why would you ban that player from playing paladins? They sound awesome

>>51383652
>If the brain takes the left fork, among the five men killed [...] will be the author of this example.
Take the left fork.

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>>51390279
>>51390387
>>51390459
>>51390605
>>51390758

>>51393206
It was a shitty and uninsightful commentary on narrative structure.

>>51391132
>You also aren't obligated to deceive them by telling them an untrue fact. You can simply withold the information and say "I ain't giving you jack shit mate".
Kantian ethics state that you are obligated to render the truth. The most famous example of which is the theoretical "A man shows up at your door and explains he's there to kill (person currently in your house) then asks if they're home. How do you respond?" question, which Kant himself claimed the only ethical response to was "Yes, they're home".

>>51384402
There were also some variant paladins in 3.5, paladins of tyranny and slaughter.

>>51393512
>I've never been able to grasp how carrying 6 pairs of monocles ties into the cop-paladin thing until now, never realized it was just a typo.
What do you mean?
>re-reads
>re-reads again
>ohhhhhhhh, MANACLES.

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Moral dilemmas are all good, but can your PCs solve a simple probability dilemma?

>>51398784
How much is the gold ball worth

I might choose to just take my gold ball and leave.

Do we get to keep all the balls we draw?

>>51398784
2/3. The tv show variant of this problem with the switching doors is much more mind blowing to retards

>>51398833
The golden ball is extremely valuable, while the silver one is worthless.
In fact, if you pull a silver ball, you lose your golden one.

Assuming you are playing a chaotic neutral rogue with 0 risk aversion, is it smarter to walk away with the ball you have, or risk drawing another one?

>>51382742
I once played a tax collector paladin of the god of wealth. I essentially lived the ideal of: "He who shows generosity is blessed and all that ,but curse he who skips out on the bill, for his greed is his undoing.

I got to wander around with the party garnishing the wages of one of the other characters, who early game couldnt repay his cost for ressurection. It was great to essentially get bounty hunter side quests every town we visited, since a god of wealth can afford temples everywhere.

It was difficult not to be too hard in collection, since any cruelty would cause a fall. Diplomassizing those who owe the church and some acts of generosity, combined with the occasional purge of those who profane the word of my god made for a good experience.

>>51392904
It's representative of there being more evil than good in the world and in systems where evil souls turn into evil outsider it represents there being more souls damned than saved.
Remember these d&d universes have multiple ways to be damned with deals with evil and not following ideals of good or even just the particular ideals of your deity and even unaligned souls being stolen in the afterlife in some systems.

>>51393479
>>51393512
I thought it was some kind of rib on having multiple pairs of sunglasses.

>>51399981
This is the Hawk's Herald, your source for portentous divinings. In local news, necromancer Xart Gamith has forged a holy contract with a celestial in exchange for the undespoiled soul needed to finish his dread masterpiece. Preliminary assessments of the contract by Fae on retainer with the Hawk's Herald indicates Xart has likely consigned his soul to eternal salvation in exchange for this boon. The celestial was unavailable for comment, but the Infernal Union issued a statement that this new tactic is "Repulsive theft of intellectual property, we came up with that first damnit" and that they will be seeking legal recourse.

>>51398784
1/2. Only two boxes contain gold balls; I have drawn from a box with a gold ball. One box contains the silver ball, and one contains the gold ball.

>>51398840
it's a ruse, this isn't actually a monty hall variant

>>51382508
I personally had a DM help another player's plot to make my paladin fall. When i asked why he would do that i was told it wasn't because i'd done anything wrong but because "everyone loves the tale of a fallen hero redeeming themselves"

>>51386874
Yeah, Wars on who should be railed and who else is shit

>>51398997
If the silver one is worthless, is it really silver?

>>51403322
Are you saying I'm wrong?

>>51402686
The chance of the first gold ball being from the box with 2 gold balls is higher.
There are 3 possible gold balls you could have drawn, and 2 of those are in the box with two gold balls.

>>51391869
You need a faster trolley, then.

>>51382742

Improved Trip.

>>51382508
If a DM ever, EVER 'causes' a Paladin to Fall, pause the game and talk it out. A DM can never 'cause' a Paladin to fall.

A Paladin's Oath is a sacred compact with his Patron. It is a bound and sworn agreement to fuel action with divine power, and for which the God receives in return the faith of the Paladin, ironclad and unassailable. Not the idea that 'everything will be alright,' not the idea that 'following these rules will get me into heaven,' but the idea that the God's view of the world is accurate, correct, and justifiable. The ONLY THINGS that can ever possibly cause a Paladin to Fall are a deliberate and remorseless act of defiance of that same worldview and code of conduct by the Paladin themself (and only then if they do it more than once, most of the time, depending on the setting) OR if the deity itself has lost all faith in the Paladin or vice-versa. If a DM ever holds two babies over a cliff and says your Paladin fell because they missed one, they're a shitty DM. If you revoked your own Paladin powers from your character because you failed to save both, you're a shitty player. If your character asked their deity how they allow such evil in the world, fine, but the God's answer shouldn't come out the fax a few seconds later, or faith itself doesn't mean much. Faith between a deity and a person empowered to act on their direct and unopposed behalf is something that must be upheld and reaffirmed.

If you need a mindset to imagine the Paladin falling, imagine this one.


(1)

The brigand screamed and thrashed as the acid worked its way into his blood. The Paladin of Gosser Law-brought watched dispassionately from his perch above. The little criminal pest had been making his way about the countryside, pillaging and robbing as he pleased, for nearly a year now. He felt a twinge of discomfort on the back of his neck as he watched the Sorcerer melt the criminal, and he slapped the spot.

"Bugs?" the rogue asked with a yawn.

"Must be," the Paladin said distractedly. The sensation faded.


That evening, the Paladin set his head down on the pillow and closed his eyes. His prayers were done, his Holy Symbol was polished and set neatly aside, and he was exhausted from a hard fight.

His dreams were not his own. He opened his eyes to see a black void, hanging in the sky. Two shimmering yellow threads wrapped around a skeletal hand surrounded by laurels, hanging in the void over his head, as his dream-self stared up above.

SEE ME, PALADIN.

The Paladin's dream-self swallowed. "I... do."

HEAR ME AND ANSWER. WHEN HAS JUSTICE BECOME VENGEANCE? WHEN DID PUNISHMENT BECOME TORTURE

"Justice has ever been vengeance, delayed and meted out without attachment," the Paladin protested. "Has it not? Why else have magistrates?"

ARE YOU A MAGISTRATE?

"They take too long! I did what the magistrate would have ordered, and I did so without costing the taxes of the nation!" the Paladin pointed out.

TO SLAY THE SURRENDERING IS NOT JUSTICE, WARRIOR. TO ACCEPT SURRENDER AND IMPOSE DUE RESTRAINT IS JUSTICE.

"Would the outcome have differed?" the Paladin insisted.

IS IT YOUR PLACE TO DECIDE? NO. YOUR OATH OF DEFENSE COMMANDS YOU TO PROTECT THOSE WITHOUT PROTECTION, TO BEAR THE BURDENS OF THE HARMED AND THE WEARY, AND TO ENSURE JUSTICE COMES TO THOSE IN ITS ABSENCE... OR ITS DEFIANCE.
(2)

"Then why have us at all?" the Paladin asked in disgust. "Why not entrust all to the Guards and the Watch, if we are not to act when we see crime in commission?"

IF YOU DUB DUE PROCESS AND DEFENDING THE HELPLESS AS INACTION, IF YOU THINK SUMMARY TORTURE IS PUNISHMENT, YOU SHALL BE A PALADIN NO LONGER. FAIRLY WERE YOU WARNED, WARRIOR, OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF INDOLENCE.


The Paladin awoke screaming. He felt cold, suddenly, despite his warm bed. His hands shook as their power bled away. His eyes chilled as his divine sight fled him.

His soul felt smaller. He felt smaller. He flopped out of bed onto the floor as he felt something warm leave his soul, and his party found him there in the morning, curled up in a ball and weeping.

(3)

I whipped that up from scratch, but you get the point. The Paladin lost faith in his God to have his back, the God lost faith in the Paladin's ability to tell right from wrong within the mindset the Paladin had specifically agreed to. That's a Fall. The DM may play the God, but if the DM says the Paladin fell from anything other than loss of faith or direct, deliberate, repeated misconduct, they're a shitty DM.

>>51383630
The correct option is to get crafty and put a coin on the tracks so the trolley tips over and you save everybody.

>>51397723
Kant legit had autism, and nobody follows Kantian ethics for that reason and others.

>>51404495
>>51404512
>>51404533
8.5/10 briddy ggood

>>51404878
You'd be amazed the sort of shit that goes on.
Kantian ethics have this air of academic integrity because they're taught in university level ethics classes, and idiots don't bother to actually question them.

Hell, why ARE they even taught?

>>51393263
Minor point, but as of 3.5 there are only infinite Demons, not Devils. Somehow the Devils are able to hold their own in the blood war, though don't ask me how. Also, iirc the Abyss has infinite numbers of finite realms while Baator has 9 infinite realms, but the Devils just haven't bothered to explore or colonize beyond the center of each.

It's still stupid to have infinite vs finite though, and I remove that from my games.

>>51403602
Not that anon, but I always hated this sort of problem, since it relies on how you arrive at the picking of the first gold ball. This phrasing is even worse.

If you pick a box at random then pull a ball from it and start there, then it should be 50% since all the first ball tells you is that it's not box 3 and the number of gold balls total doesn't play into it.

The official answer, though, requires that you start earlier and include the chances of getting that initial gold ball into account, and I just don't get that from the text.

If they just rephrased it I wouldn't be so annoyed.

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Would the D-class palladin fall?

>>51384191
Well, the paladin problem never came up when I was 12, because 2nd edition never let you actually play a paladin.

>>51383652

>the brain is aware of this for the brain knows <x>

I pass my turn.

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>>51394062
>>51384781

There are 5 scenarios depending on how many pull the lever. (Think of the leaves of a binary tree if you don't believe me)

Every lever pull adds 1 death. One lever untouched adds 5 deaths and ends the problem at that stage.

Best scenario (4 dead) requires the cooperation of everyone. 2nd best scenario (5 dead) requires only you to end the problem at your stop. Worst would be 8 dead with the last guy not pulling the lever.

Now imagine if you are told that there is a 50/50 chance the people above you pull the lever but you don't know how many of them there are, and that the trolley problem begins with you. What will you do? Will your answer change if you are told of the number of people above you?

Another twist: you are in this type of trolley chain (4 levels) but you don't know how many levels the trolley has been traveling so far. You also do not know if you are the last person or not. What will be the best course of action?

Keep in mind: the trolley made it up to you. The person below you, in the interest of reducing deaths, believes that you will pull the lever too.

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>>51405582
The problem isn't meant to trip you up with tricky wording; it's intended to demonstrate that the intuitive way of thinking about the problem is *not correct*. You're supposed to learn, not get upset because you weren't handed the solution on a silver platter.

>>51406838
if you're first you don't pull the lever. Given it's basically a 50/50 on whether the people ahead of you will pull/not pull it's better to just minimize risk.

If you don't know where you're at in the chain or are somewhere in the middle you pull the lever. If someone below you already committed to trying for least deaths possible you might as well go for it. Anything else is basically just spitting in their face

>>51384781
Every person I've ever relayed the original ethical dilemma of pull versus don't answered "pull?" as if I was asking them a trick question, then became confused when I elaborated on why you wouldn't. I don't think most people consider the ethics of their actions beyond the immediate cause -> effect, and will gamble on that being the case. Pull the lever.

>>51407090
But we know where we are in the chain, you stupid fuck

>>51406876
>The problem isn't meant to trip you up with tricky wording
And yet it does, because it describes the setup in an ass-backwards and counterintuitive manner.

>get upset because you weren't handed the solution on a silver platter.
Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were only posting because you wanted to feel superior to someone else. I'll go back to being a moron with a small penis now.

>>51406876

The thing is though, that it's not wrong. You do have a 50% chance of the next ball being gold, since the first event (Drawing a gold) is now set.

The chances of you drawing both gold, assuming you've grabbed none is different but that's not how the event is presented. It's really not a well phrased question.

>>51384781
Pull it.

The possibility of the best of all possible worlds (merely 4 deaths) is worth the risk of a slightly worse one (one of the others makes the wrong choice and 6~8 deaths). Also, since the others can see Red he can act as a leader and assume the responsibility. Perhaps by shouting "Pull the levers!" as he does so. Then less guilt for everyone else.

>>51383652
Okay, so...at what point in time do I make a decision? Because it's the brain that's deciding which fork to take, not me.

Am I supposed to be the brain in the jar?

Furthermore, we don't even know which path the trolley is going to take (left or right) by default. If the brain does nothing, who dies?

There is no problem here at all.

>>51393609
>high magic settings

>>51397723
The only proper RESPONSE, I thought saying you don't want to respond and such was also considered valid to Kant. Still dumb though, I am definitely lying to that fucker.

>>51382508
Yes it does. I played two sessions as a paladin in a campaign that collapsed after 3 sessions. The DM was a narcissist who thought he was clever.
Literally every character interaction my character did resulted in him warning me that I was about to fall
>Calling an illusionary talking zombie "heretical filth" as a worshipper of "The holy light" because illusions are made of light LOLOLOL
>Drunk peasant tries to fight my paladin in a pub because you turned down an honourable fight LOLOLOL
>Running down fleeing goblins who were, just seconds before, killing children because they retreated from battle LOLOLOL

It was actually the other players getting sick of his shit that caused that game to fall apart.

>>51398411
>forgetting the most important one, the CG Paladin of Freedom

>>51404942
I always figured the only reason they would be taught would be as an example of what not to do

>>51407853
That's just not true.

>>51398784
>>51398840
>>51403322
There are 2 boxes. One box contain 1 million gold balls, the other contain 999'999 silver balls and 1 gold ball. You pick a box. You can take a look at one ball at random, then you can switch.
The ball is gold. Unnecessary switching enrages the goddess of probability. What do you do?

>>51412866
Switch until the goddess of probability shows up, then kill her for exp and take both boxes and their contents.

>>51411185
Of course it is.

>>51405851
There are no good men among the D-Class.
Not a single one.
That's why they are D-class, and that's why all those things happen to them.

>>51411185
You chose two BOXES with equal chance of being selected. You didn't take the balls out first and select from them as a pool of balls.

>>51414975
You can't change reality by thinking about it from a different perspective. Try the experiment yourself.

>>51416550
>You chose two BOXES with equal chance of being selected.
And half the instances where you chose the second box are discarded because you then proceeded to draw a silver ball. The gold ball doesn't gravitate toward your fucking hand.

>>51402686
>>51405582
>>51407853
>>51407728
>>51416550
>>51414975
Incredibly disappointed in you /tg/. This isn't a trick question with a philosophical angle or anything, this is literally the most basic of logic tests there are. This kind of anti-intellectualism I'd not expected to find in /tg/.

>>51382826
>Like how everyone knows about "that guy" constantly perving on every female NPC, but in reality only a small minority of players actually dealt with someone like that in reality.

Happened once in our shop. He was very explicit. After we said try and cut that down a bit. Next time he was in he tried to rape (in game) the character of another player who was about 12-13 girl. We banned him from the shop after that but the kid never came back.

>>51417724
That's fucking gross.

>>51419119
>gross
Are you literally female? It's assholish, but not "gross".

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>>51419133
Dude. He tried to rape an underage girl's character. That's fucking gross.

>>51417068
>The gold ball doesn't gravitate toward your fucking hand.
The problem is when you accept just happening to grab a gold ball out of the chosen box as a given, which is a reasonable interpretation of the text.

The way it's phrased, you pick a box at random and we find out a minute later it just happened to be 1 of the 2 with gold balls in them. Things just happened that way, because that's what the setup says.

Problem is, you then grab a ball from the box and it's gold, and you're supposed to switch over to calculating the chances of that happening and not accept that at something that just happened because the setup says so.

Granted, if you sit there and calculate the odds of both things happening you'll end up with the same answer as just the second one, but I don't see anything in the text itself to indicate one way over the other. It's just the official answer that tells you whether or not you skipped half the problem.

>>51417324
It's not anti-intellectualism, though, it's being upset over vague phrasing and the tendency of people who have already had the answer explained to them to be condescending when someone answers with something other than the official answer.

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>>51397723
>>51404878
>>51404942
>Paladin of Kant

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>>51419318
So basically it's pic related in logic puzzle form.

>>51419402
No, the poster you're replying to has a case of the the 13-year-olds, where they just have look for imaginary faults so they can point it out and thus show themself to be vastly more intelligent.

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>>51419318
Re-read the question. It is very simply- and very well-phrased. There is no "switching over" of any calculations, because your interpretation is invalid, full-stop. You were clearly given the process, as well as the halfway result of a single trial. No more.

>>51419346
>the official answer
There is no other legitimate answer. There is no room for subjectivity, and digging your heels in only makes you look like a child.

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>>51419350
Rather,
>Kant, Paladin of Rational Theism
>"Beware evildoers! My blade will pierce your hearts like Reason pierces the Miasma of Human Bias to reach a Holy Universal Truth!"
>"Hereinabove we have proposed that the lych's plan to summon the Ancient God of Blight and Despair has been evil either due to it being against the whims of an omnipotent entity, that is a sort of god, or, denying that, we suppose that it is not objectively evil but simply adverse to our interests. I suppose, however, using only a set of rational observations, that I may find a way in that the line of the the lych's moral reasoning is illogical, and is therefore not immoral due to a perceived violation of the whims of the omnipotent, but a violation of the Categorical Imperative."
>*Evening prayers are 5 hour lectures on metaphysics*

>>51397723
The man has already violated the ethics which hold our society together, and therefore you are in no way beholden to him.

>Kant himself claimed
citation on that one please.

>>51419783
Actually no, this version is not well phrased. Maybe there are other versions out there that are, but this is not.

>halfway result of a single trial.
What is there to indicate that what we were given is halfway through what we're supposed to calculate, rather than what we're supposed to calculate starting halfway through the process? I'm not seeing it, and I seriously doubt you're going to convince me without pointing to specific words or phrases that conclusively show I'm interpreting it wrong.

>digging your heels in only makes you look like a child.
As opposed to telling something they're interpreting something wrong without bothering to actually provide evidence to support your points? I've stated my opinion and explained why I feel the way I do. You've told me repeatedly that I'm misinterpreting something that's supposedly very clear.

Unless you actually make a proper argument I'm not going to bother responding again. I have better things to do with my time.

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>>51420924
Oh, I see. You have trouble with reading comprehension.

Well, I'll wish you a good life despite your troubles.

>>51420924
Kill yourself my man.

>>51420924
>>51419783
Not either of these people but consider the following:

>If you flip two coins in a row what is the chance you will get two heads?
Obviously, this is 25%

>Assume you flip a coin and it is heads, if you flip another coin what is the odds that it too will be heads
Obviously, this is 50%

This is the difference between what you two are talking about. If you start with the assumption that a box and a ball has already been picked then some element of chance has already been bypassed. You are essentially left with a gold ball in your hand that is entirely meaningless and two possible boxes, one with a gold ball and one with a silver ball. The chance of having the gold ball box at that point is 50%. If you start from the beginning then there is a ~33% chance you will draw a gold ball first and a gold ball second, a ~16.5% you will draw a gold ball first and a silver ball second, and a 50% chance that you will draw a silver ball first and stop there. (Note how the chance of having the double gold box is twice that of not)

Both are true, but it all depends on what events have been locked in as true and can no longer be considered.

>>51421685
>Assume you flip a coin and it is heads, if you flip another coin what is the odds that it too will be heads
Except that's not the same thing, because it's not a repeated trial of the same coin. One coin has both faces and the other coin has only heads, and you're to take the probability of it being one or the other given you flipped a random one and it came up heads.

>some element of chance has already been bypassed. You are essentially left with a gold ball in your hand that is entirely meaningless
This is where you're wrong. The gold balls are their own entities which were made in different moulds and/or at different times, placed into different boxes, and picked or not picked *fairly, i.e. randomly, according to the scenario*. No element of chance has been bypassed, and the fact that you're not privy to the ball's identity does not make them interchangeable: you are not just holding "a gold ball"; you are holding one of three gold balls, and left with three possible boxes, two with a gold ball each and one with a silver ball.

>>51398784
To help out anyone still thinking about this, consider the following:

Suppose there are three boxes.
>Box #1 has 100 gold balls
>Box #2 has 99 silver balls and 1 gold ball
>Box #3 has 100 silver balls

You pick a box and you draw out a gold ball. Now which box do you think is more likely?

>>51422161
I dunno, could be any of them.

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>>51422302
>I dunno, could be any of them.
What the-?
Is this guy trying to be stupid?
What is he- *spots name*
>mfw

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>>51422302

>>51422378
>*spots name*

*teleports behind u*
psssh...nothin personnel...kid...
*420 noscopes u*

>>51422422
This is a confusing reply.
The only meaning I can discern is that I triggered you with my use of asterisks.

>>51421957
>The gold balls are their own entities which were made in different moulds and/or at different times, placed into different boxes, and picked or not picked *fairly, i.e. randomly, according to the scenario*. No element of chance has been bypassed, and the fact that you're not privy to the ball's identity does not make them interchangeable: you are not just holding "a gold ball"; you are holding one of three gold balls, and left with three possible boxes, two with a gold ball each and one with a silver ball.
You are not good at human communication.

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>>51422541
Gold ball not same. One gold ball make in found-er-y in Wisconsin. One gold ball smell like sunflower. One gold ball have radium dust. You no able know which you have, but ball still different.

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>>51422747

>>51384781
Question, if you were to pull the lever halfway and leave the track not fully switched, would it be enough to derail the thing?

>>51423065
Yes, but you'll kill or seriously injure everyone in the trolley.

>>51423196
Since the trolley doesn't stop itself, it must be empty, or the people on board are the same people that tied everyone to the tracks so they could carry out an annoying moral dilemma.

>>51423220
Or it had a brake failure, or the perpetrator is holding the rest of the occupants hostage, or it has a bomb hooked up to the speedometer...

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>>51422302
That username's legit, because that comment is GOLD.

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>>51419869
>*Evening prayers are 5 hour lectures on metaphysics*