>mfw I make a non-combat character and the DM has to plan

>>51346907
well you're a cunt

>>51346907
Unless the campaign literally had NO non-combat encounters, I highly doubt the DM had to do anything special to accommodate you.

If he did, and you knew that he would have to, you're a dick

>>51346907
>>51346940

>implying it's not fun to chase a wimpy character around.

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>that guy who makes a minmaxed melee character
>DM has to plan battles around him
>enemies beat the shit out of anyone else in the party
>that guy is a lone wolf faggot and doesn't help anyone

>>51346907
>>51346940
>>51346992
>implying it's not fun to run around getting chased by something dangerous

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>>51346907
>playing ttrpgs where the default assumption is all characters are "combat characters"

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>>51346907
>not using charisma to create an army.

>>51347086

OK FAGLORD THEN TELL US, WHAT'S A GOOD TTRPG?

YOU ASSFUCKS ALWAYS SAY "HURRRR DON'T PLAY D&D / GURPS / WHATEVER THE FUCK" BUT NEVER SHARE WHICH ONES ARE GOOD.

SO TELL US CHUCKLECUNT WHICH ONES ARE GOOD?

CAPSLOCK BECAUSE I PRE-EMPTIVELY HATE YOU.

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>balancing encounters

>>51347127

I feel Hector used STR to make an army more than he did CHA.

Or just his reputation of being part of the army that saved the world.

>>51347086
>ttrpg
>Tabletop ??? Role-Playing Game
what's the second T stand for anon

>>51346940
I mean that is an accurate description of the character in the image he posted, so that might have been the point.

>>51347161
When did I say don't play GURPS, GURPS is fantastic and has great options for making non combat characters.

>>51347179
i wouldn't count him out, he was a gruff motherfucker but he did well enough when it came to holding it together but i haven;t played hector mode in a while.
if i still had my original ds i'd fire it up

>>51347187
Top.Because people are stupid.

>>51347217
Tabletop Top Role-Playing Game? that doesn't make sense. surely someone who posts on the enlightened board of /tg/ couldn't be stupid

>>51347203
He might have assumed /tg/ is one other person besides himself again.

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>>51347161
If you lie Warmachine, I'd definitely recommend giving Iron Kingdoms. It's a great Tactical RPG. I've had a few good runs.

>>51347187
TableTop Role-Playing Game. Gotta seperate the term from Tactical Roleplaying Games somehow and the extra T works fine enough for that purpose.

>>51347229
No the two Ts are for Table Top even though tabletop is one word. It's like the SOS Brigade from Haruhi. But fucking stupider because we're English speakers and should actually know better.

>>>51347249
Tactical Tabletop Role Playing Game.

>>51347240
>Gotta seperate the term from Tactical Roleplaying Games somehow
well, you see
you could just type 'tactical roleplaying game'
it's not very hard to type, anon

>>51347127
You can't do shit with charisma in games.

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>>51347263

>>51347263
>play a halfling bard
>18 charisma
>walk into the big bad's manor, bumble my way through his library making up an excuse that i'm a rare book repair guy, fall down the shaft to his secret underground lair and then convince him to give me a key to get around so that i can find my own way out
ayyy

>>51347262
You've converted me. Now you just have to convince the rest of the internet to follow your ingenious writing conventions. Good luck with that.

>>51347240
Except Warhammer40k is always referred to as a tabletop game, so it'd be easier to just call something an RPG, because it's not like we're talking with the spergs over in /v/ or anything. Nobody is confusing D&D for Fallout, except for "stat me" threads.

Especially since this is literally the first time since I've gotten onto /tg/ where I've seen the term "Tactical Role Playing Game"

As far as I know we used to differentiate it as TTG and TTRPG depending on if it's a tactical wargame or a pen and paper game because last I checked you don't roleplay during wargames unless you're an overly serious faggot or you only like skirmish level games.

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>>51347263
your dm is shit then.
in WHFB, there are rules for it
across all the editions of dnd it is possible
i would be fucking floored if gurps didn't have it
so on and so forth.

>>51347161
Dark Heresy & co.

You can be a combat character and be useful. You can be a noncombat character and be useful. The party will need a good balance of both to get shit done.

Specifically Dark Heresy has the added bonus that you only need VERY minor house ruling to be able to play as a fantasy game.

>>51347306
Really I think it's about Genre. Take a game like Mutants and Masterminds. It's really focused on combat mechanics and fighting in a way that is tactically sound.

Then you have Masks. It's less heavy on combat rules because it's more about the roleplay of being a super hero and how those characters feel.

All of the WoD games are straight forward RPG's while D&D is Tactical by nature.

>>51347280
> never made appointment with him
> no sane person would let you do this
> yet because MUH 18 CHARISMA you can convince him to let you fuck him in the ass

I hate this meme.

>>51347374
with a good bit of phrasing you can do anything

>>51347011
Here's what I don't understand about min-maxing in DnD:

DnD games tend to follow the fantasy convention that enemies come in bite-sized chunks that are strong/numerous enough to give them a challenge without being too strong/numerous for the party to handle. This convention works both ways: if the party is weaker, so are enemies; if the party is stronger, so are enemies. Being ahead of the intended power curve offers no net gain, as encounters are scaled to be 0,8 times party power level regardless of what that level is. Thus, all min-maxing does is screw over party members with no advantage to the min-maxer. Why then do they keep doing it?

>>51347374
Have you seen that greentext about Gropey and two friends convincing a train station guard they had lost their elephant, after he found them illegally hiding out in a train cabin? In the end, they even got him to give them his spare keys to the train yard.

I don't know if there's any truth to the story, but I can easily see someone with neigh-superhuman speechcraft doing it.

>>51347374
>no sane person has ever, ever been scammed by a conman

>>51347263
That's just because new D&D systems removed retainer and morale rules, which made charisma into an amazing asset.

>>51347231
/tg/ always assumes it's just one person

>>51347630
haven't we agreed that /tg/ is an angry Finn talking to himself?

>>51347669
/tg/ doesn't drink nearly enough vodka for that.

>>51347669
perkele, that makes sense.

>>51347161
I played a child character with little more than clairvoyance and clairsentience in Strands of Fate once. I thought for sure I'd get bored and make a fighter character eventually, but my GM was a really cool guy and there was always something for me to do.

>>51346907
I too played martial the first time I got into Pathfinder.

>>51347340
Well now im curious. Please elaborate on this, ive haf 1st ed DH kicking around my shelf for a while and thought it to mich hastle to repurpose the system for fantasy.

>>51347263
Charisma was the only stat that sometimes mattered in Gygaxian D&D.
See also, >>51262214

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>>51347176
>having codified "encounters"

>>51347482

Just to note that min-maxing is not in itself a problem, just when it creates a major party imbalance. Min-maxing can actually be a good thing if the class is one of the notoriously underpowered ones.

>Why then do they keep doing it?

1. The player might have started out in high lethality games and simply be used to having to min-max to keep their character alive.

2. The player may simply enjoy min-maxing as an activity in its own right.

3. The player might be afraid of failure. Powergamers often defend themselves by saying "I don't want a character that sucks" (falsely claiming it's a binary choice) and many ex-Powergamers admit they hated 'losing'.

4. The player might be a spotlight hog who wants, conciously or unconciously, to be able to stand out in as many areas as possible during play. Games like DnD with poor inter-Class balance enable this.

>>51347482
What you're saying is assuming the DM is some kind of inhuman computational engine with the capability, or even the desire, to out minmax a minmaxer in order to keep the danger level the same. Which, in my experience, is rarely the case. Typically you'll have one completely new player, two or three more experienced but still new or grizzled enough to want to play something less optimised "for fun", and then HIM. The guy who read every obscure referece and errata there ever was a month in advance solely so he can "win".
It might not even be conscious (and again, in my experience, it usually isn't), but they want to play a "good" character and somewhere in their minds that translates to wringing out every mechanical advantage possible. They may even have a backstory the size of a small novel in order to explain all that stuff, but in the end the fact of the matter is that he's there to beat every challenge, and he will intentionally or not outshine everyone else in the process. Entering an arms race with this guy or trying to limit him by imposing arbitrary bans and houserules are both losing propositions; you either manage to convince him to intentionally "lose", or give up on him.

>>51348031
>1. The player might have started out in high lethality games and simply be used to having to min-max to keep their character alive.

This was what pushed me to minmaxing.

I don't want to "win," necessarily. I just don't want to throw out characters over and over because I'm getting shrekt in every random encounter vs a literal who pack of assholes

>>51347952
>blini

>>51348031
>Indicative of bigger system issue
>Indicative of non-communicative gm which is in and of itself an issue
>Personal problem
>Personal problem
>Significantly worse personal problem

>>51346907
You are the last person I wanted to see.

>>51347374
But Anon, he rolled a 20

>>51349709
Oh, that's so sweet! You wanted to see me again!

Your DM doesn't have to plan SHIT around you. You have the pleasure of a DM that is willing to plan even one encounter with a non-combat solution in mind instead of you being eaten by somthing you can't reason with. I have q grognard DM that straight up told us he expected at least one of us to die first session. We only survived by the skin of our teeth because he didn't expect anyone to prepare dispell magic and it saved our asses twice.

>>51347482
Because tickling that enemy with 120 HP or so to death over 5 rounds with a sword and board Fighter's dinky 1d8+10 longsword attacks is shit while playing classes that can actually kill things in a reasonable amount of time is not. The former is one of the worst experiences I've ever had playing tabletop.

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>>51347952
>playing with "rules" and "dice"

>>51347263
>You can't do shit with charisma in games.

In a good game of shadowrun, the GM constantly asks for Etiquette rolls and has NPCs question PCs all the time. And then NPCs can dislike the party, the PCs' contacts' loyalty won't increase (which causes problems down the road), fences will give worse rates for items, questgivers might offer lower run rewards, or guards may try to search the bags of people who don't look like they belong. Things like that can make or break a run, and that's not even counting availability rolls which take charisma to locate and buy high-end gear. In SR, a character with no social skills is just as much of a burden as someone with no combat skills, if not more so.

I've not only played high lethality games when I learned gaming, my first group bullied me for not being good enough in their eyes. Which was encouraged by the gm. I'm a power gamer now. I do keep it low key and always play team oriented characters so to not hog the spotlight.

>>51347482
As someone who optimizes pretty hard, I tend to like looking at my various options and figuring out how to get the biggest numbers (or high numbers in the most categories, or whatever). That said, being way the fuck stronger than everyone else is no fun, so I limit my power level so I don't overshadow anyone else.

Some people also want to show off and be the best, because apparently they think that makes their penis bigger or something.

And, finally, some people may be used to situations where that's relatively appropriate. They may come from a group where everyone optimized as much as they do, or where the other players weren't combat focused so their whole deal was "kill shit quickly so it doesn't kill the rest of the group" and that DM worked around that setup.

tl;dr if it gets to the point where it's affecting the game, the person in question is either an ass or doesn't realize what's going on. Either way, talk to them about it.

>>51347161
Howabout world of fucking darkness you greasy bucket of fuck.

Most characters I've seen in WoD, especially Vampire, don't need to be combat oriented. In fact because I started with WoD, moving to other systems like DND felt really weird since everyone is expected to fight. As if that's the sole and only source of drama ever.

>>51347482
Min-maxing is the logical conclusion of build cancer and babied PCs. D&D was never supposed to be about combat except as a last resort, and designing encounters around party level is intense WotC cancer introduced only to make the game safe and palatable for shop events.

>>51350875
>tl;dr if it gets to the point where it's affecting the game, the person in question is either an ass or doesn't realize what's going on
Why is the onus on the player to hide his power level and not on the newbies to just git gud? DM's that baby their players are shit, just as much as they are ones who can't challenge min-maxers by bringing the houserules out of their comfort zone.

>>51353771
>D&D was never supposed to be about combat except as a last resort

Niggah it was literally a fucking mod for a fucking wargame. Don't you spout that shit. If you need to buy a wargame to even play combat isn't "a last resort". It's literally the idea.

>>51347161
WoD is a good, simple intro to actual RPGs for DnD-drones.

>>51353889
The wargame roots are present in D&D's domain level play. OD&D only borrowed Chainmail's rules for man-to-man combat (and Outdoor Survival's hexmap). You barely get any XP for killing monsters up until AD&D 2e, it all came from gold.

>>51346907
DMs always have to plan encounters, in and out of combat, around the party composition. That's just part of the job.

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>>51347482
READ THE BOOK

>>51347011
>typical Dawn problem in exalted

>>51353709
In WoD everyone just minmaxes mind control because that's the strongest thing there is. That's no different to minmaxing damage or magic or charisma. It's the same shit, don't pretend it isn't.

>>51353889
The amount of XP from battles was a pittance compared to amount from treasure, you had low amount of HP, and attack bonuses small making combat swingy. The game incentivised exploring the dungeon while avoiding battles. Fighting something was occupational hazard not the main content.

>>51354065
That has literally never happened in any wod game I've ever run, you fucking idiot. Mind control is heavily effective on humans and mages but not werewolves, changelings, or vampires. And humans even have exceptions in hunters. Not only that but you can nerf that shit on the fly because storyteller covers its own ass incredibly easily. Unlike DND where everyone would have to turn into a whiny pissbaby because their entire fucking character took 5 hours to optimize for that one tactic and there are 800 rules backing it up that you'd have to un-knot to fix.

>>51347340
Can't you just play Warhammer Fantasy and be done with it?

>>51354080
>The amount of XP from battles was a pittance
Wrong, combat XP was severely nerfed, that wasn't part of the original game.

>>51349746
...

>>51346907
>Shouldn't you be the one planning around his encounters?

>>51354251
But Anon, that's metagaming!

>>51354251
No? The player has no idea what the GM will do unless you're playing D&D in which case you know exactly what they will do every single time.

>>51354227
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pittance

>>51354272
If you go with a group that is very much prone to start fighting, yes you should know what will happen.

If vidya taught me anything optimal exp yield of an encounter is solving thing peacefully. And then killing everyone.

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>mfw a player shows up with a non-combat character and he gets turned into fucking chum and the DM tells him he just used up his only reroll

DARK SUN GIVES NO FUCKS ABOUT YOUR PACIFISM

>>51347011
Literally impossible.
I hear DMs complain about this and I have never understood it.

>that sure is a bad case of polio your min/maxed fighter has.

>>51354374
Modern DMs are too afraid of conflict with their players. They started the hobby too late and view the game as a "shared experience" instead of a game, so stopping someone's enjoyment is the worst crime (although they'll just ignore the fact that it's hurting everyone else's enjoyment).

All DMs need to put something through a fucking meat grinder at least twice so the other players know he's not fucking around.

>>51346907
Never understood this either.

>your non combat character gets accosted by 3 muggers. They haven't eaten in days and will stop at nothing less than killing you and taking your money.
>you're noncombat.
>looks like you're dead, senpai :^)

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>>51354272

>>51354397
I've been spending too much time on /pol/; I read that as ni and not mu

Well, ggers gonna gger.

>>51354392
I guess my stance is a function of DMing for a long time.

You really think you can fucking beat me, with your min/maxed fighter/wizard/whatever?

If you're intentionally trying to make my job harder in regards to making a fun and engaging campaign for the group because you want to steal the lime light, I'll crater your fucking character so fast.

>>51354182
This. 2e is fun as fuck

>>51354413
Yeah... I actually do use race in my campaigns, though it's more pronounced when it's between humans/dwarves/whatever.

Saying "black people are oppressed bere" is just going to raise the question of: "if multiple human ethnicities are present in your world (even if we just say like 5: white, black, asian, latin/south American, arab), how many ethnicities do dwarves have? Elves? Orcs?"

It's more trouble than its worth. Lol

>>51347482
>Thus, all min-maxing does is screw over party members with no advantage to the min-maxer. Why then do they keep doing it?

For the PvP Anon. got to curbstomp those fags nerds and casuals. Cause they aint Treu Nerds

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>>51350301
>setting up """games"""

>>51354454
Shadowrun 3e had a line in the rulebook about how its hard to care about skin color when some guys have horns

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>>51349036
>They may even have a backstory the size of a small novel in order to explain all that stuff,

This is just one of the small parts of the fun of min-maxing, getting together all your shit and then figuring out how to camouflage it as a character.

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>rolling a non-caster

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>>51350875
>I limit my power level so I don't overshadow anyone else.

You don't have to do that, just play support and then go 1000%. Like a wizard or a Paladin or a cleric or some shit. As long as you're not actually dealing damage nobody notices what you're doing, just help everyone else deal damage and they'll feel awesome and you'll be smug.

>>51346907
That's perfectly OK unless it was stated earlier that game is combat-centered.

>>51347161
GURPS is OK with non-combat characters. 7th sea is OK. WoD is OK. L5R is OK. Even *W systems have a ton of options for social/skillful characters.
Just Poke few popular systems that aren't DnD or it's clones.

>>51347374
>I don't see why you need to come inside to make your pitch
>I would never buy a vacuum for more than $200
>You're right $2500 at 15% interest is a good deal for that vacuum.

>This meme going anywhere

>>51346907
No I don't. It's a hexcrawl. You can try talking to things you encounter sure, but don't be surprised if combat comes up.

>>51347835
Well, DH already has rules for all sorts of medieval weaponry, and 'magic' in the form of psykers. All you'd have to do is change a few names (homeworld becomes birthplace), define a new set of common/scholastic/forbidden lores, and fix starting equipment, and all classes but techpriest are playable. Even the techpriest can be easily made operational by making him some kind of craftsman/artificer.

>>51354182
Yes you could.

>>51346907
I've played a non-combative Paladin. He was over 60yo, so wasn't exactly as nimble as his youth.

Imagine my face when the DM learned his name was 'Uncle' Ben (Kenobi)

The DM found it infuriating when I kept on talking random encounters down.

I did the opposite, I'm the only primary combat character in an otherwise mostly non-combat game. Boss fights don't tend to last very long.

>>51346907
As DM, I don't.
I have the freedom to make my own campaign to what I wanted and the players have the freedom to make their own characters to what they wished.
Both sides have limits we adhered to so everyone can have fun.
If their characters died because they didn't pay attention when I described the campaign, then just make new characters.
If that's too much effort, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

>>51347594
A player coming upnwith a well thought out, clever con is thebsa,e as rolling dice and getting what you want cause you have high social stats.

>>51355168
The same as*
Also I enjoy when players give me the opopportunity to come up with encounters that need to be resolved with not kill the badguy.

>>51355168
Fat fingers?

>>51355190
.>>51355189
Yeah.

>>51347279
Oh shit, super flash brothers, that's a blast from the past.

>>51347310
GURPS is a little weird with it actually
'Charisma' isn't a stat but instead an advantage you can take to give a +1 bonus to social rolls per level, and a +1 to reaction rolls when interacting with an NPC.
otherwise, social skills are largely based on IQ (with some exceptions like Sex Appeal being HT), and NPC reaction rolls are based on a variety of things including character status, their appearance bonus, and reputation.

by the by, before anybody asks - creating a smart but socially awkward character isn't that difficult, you just don't buy up any levels in social skills - the defaults for having no skill usually drop them down pretty hard. for a step further i think there's a couple of disadvantages for further social penalties like odious personal habits and such, and the incompetence quirk gives extra penalties to using a skill in addition to making it unbuyable
making a dumb but socially adept character just requires using the charisma advantage to compensate
neat

>tfw being a flavorful support wizard that is most helpful helping with spells out of combat
>be forced by party to take a set roster of spells no matter what every time because "le ebin fireball damage :^)"
>"What do you mean you 'used your level 4 slots to Polymorph us out of trouble earlier'? Don't you have any left for actual combat?!"
>end up flinging 8 damage cantrips at enemies half the time

>>51347176
>Encounters
>Not letting your players ran around your pastime world killing shit
Freeway/Sandbox is the way to go anon, so, even if you fuck up its just the players fault;
>HEY, YOU CHOOSE TO HUNT THAT 22 FEET TALL LION, ITS NOT MY FAULT, YOU TRIED TO KILL IT.

>>51355656
>wizard
>forced to do anything by the party

Why not tell them to fuck off?

>>51347669
Why am I talking about myself in the third person anyway?

>>51355757
Because the party damage would otherwise be too low if I would not take arbitrary combat spells since our DM doesn't want to scale stuff down either since we have a skillmonkey War-Cleric and a min-maxed Warlock that are strong enough to kill just about anything in front of them but also cause 70% of our party damage to be focused in those 2 characters without any actual range. Means that he can't make enemies weaker or they would just curbstomp literally anything. Right now it's usually them cutting through the enemies while the casters and our Berserker tank durdle around in the back trying to stay alive with the occasional kill from a single-target burst or the lucky Hold Person to make it easier for the other 2 to kill shit.

At least our DM in turn is generous giving XP for roleplaying. Tho it doesn't help that my 7 Charisma Wizard is always the one that has to talk things out with people since the others end up discussing things for minutes or spill their spaghetti hard.

>>51355868
>I didd it again

fugg :DDD

>>51353771
>D&D was never supposed to be about combat except as a last resort
learn more about the things you talk about

>>51355883
>Support mage
>Long-term party just kicked me out for lack of damage
>At tavern trying to think how to get my shit together
>gotta pay for all those spell components
>notice a unbalanced party has been looking at me for some time
>Priestess, enchantress, witch and a cute warrior
>not a single utility
>smile at them and wave a little
>go back to staring at my tankard
>look up to see them sitting around me
>Witch asks me what's wrong
>little reluctant, think its a trick
>it isn't
>feelsgoodman.jpg
>they were dumped recently too
>their fire mage just left, lack of spotlight btween that much damage
>accidently stare at their gold purse
>i'm broke, theirs is full
>asks if i like what i see
>The witch takes a bunch of coins out
>i can get you a advance
>she goes for my pocket
>palms are sweaty
>knees weak, arms are heavy
>she goes for the wrong pocket
>mom's spaghetti

She spilled my spaghetti hard, i lost components for 5 greater italian diner, and the job offer.

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>>51355998
>In your not-konosuba magical realmy theorycraft, they all don't have slob-fetish?

>>51347263
You would be amazed what a good bluff and a thermal detonator can achieve.

>>51355974
>looks at OD&D reaction table
>1/12 chance of 'hostile' encounter
I agree, you should always immediately kill anyone who tries to talk to you

>>51354392
>They started the hobby too late and view the game as a "shared experience" instead of a game, so stopping someone's enjoyment is the worst crime (although they'll just ignore the fact that it's hurting everyone else's enjoyment).
This, holy shit. They need a wakeup call by sitting through a real D&D game run by an experienced DM.

The same can be said for their players, I have to make a sport out of de-brainwashing the backwash I get from these coddling storyshit DM's, putting them through babby's first dungeon bootcamp. You wouldn't believe some of the egos on these cunts.

>>51359043
>>51354392
Grognards stopped being relevant for a reason.

>>51354647
>implying race is skin deep
late shadowrun is pozzed.

>>51347263

Well, thats YOU.

>>51347630
That's just how anonymous posting works. I don't know why the new breed of newfags have so much trouble understanding that. It doesn't make sense to correct someone for quoting one post while referring to another post's points that might or might not be from the same poster - the points are what's relevant, not who said them.

>>51355883
Why are new school DM's so uncreative? Just introduce monsters that undermines the party's abilities. Split the party up. Move focus off combat and onto traps, etc. Whatever happened to challenging players?

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>>51355974
wew

>>51359064
Yup, $$$ and the massive new LCD market. I'm not sure why you casual faggots post on /tg/, though

>>51359245
Challenge in and of itself has never been what made games fun.

>>51359245
Because some players would rage and it's hard enough getting games going.

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>>51359322

>>51359362
>i play tabletop games because they're challenging
Said no one ever, except for (you), just so you don't lose the argument.

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>>51359399
OH MAH GAWD ANON, A BAIT!

>>51347127
>>51347179
Or just had a bonus that let him add some of his Strength when doing Charisma stuff