Horus Heresy General /hhg/

first for iron hands

>>51295714
Second for the true iron legion

>tfw you were writing up an OP with dice rolling, thread summary and actually keeping track of what thread we're in
XXVth thread for
>>51295714
Oh.

>>51295722
>>51295562 #
In >>51295613 #
Requesting a photoshop of this as one of Lorgar's titles

>>51295383
IW, IH never had Librarius, EC never had any Librarians (at least in some older fluff) because of the insecurity caused by the gene-seed incident, not sure about SoH and RG. Corax did use them sparingly, the last one went to Terra to face the punishment for breaking the Edict, got recruited by the ol' M.

>>51295719
Inherited baldness. By the Emperor.

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This thread is undergiong inspection for the Biologis. Prepare for analysis.


(Why, of all the armies, did I pick Reductor Biologis. No damn fluff for either. Going to be fun converting everything, though.)

>>51295769
At least you'll have an actually interesting and unique army, unlike everyone here who plays loyalist Iron Warriors

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>>51295769
N-noth-ings g-going on m--magos! Just appreciating the h-human form! *Nervous Laugh*

>>51295763
Or you know, it's easier when they wear helmets.

>>51295769
>here, you can see the techpriest has placed his brain in a jar because the conductive fluid its floating in increases his cognitive efficiency by 2.8%

>>51295245
Yesugei talking about the Khan (in Scars):
>in any case, he will take no notice of Edict. None of us will. The gift is part of who we are, has been for long time. Imagine if I tell you to put away your flamers, or you, son of Medusa, your metal hand. Would you do it?

>my shitpost about Word Bearer baldness is mentioned in the OP

Thanks guys, but on another note I'm planning on replacing my dark apostle figures deamon head with the unhelmeted one from the Blood Angel upgrade kit, I like the idea of beautiful corruption similar to how Sauron deceived the elves or Satan.

>>51295732
Awww
Yeah I was expecting that you did it.
XXVth thread 'ere we go, bread for the bread god, walls for the wall throne.
>>51295763
Why would the IW not have librarians? That we don't hear about them doesn't mean they exist, especially in such a big legion.
>>51295812
Sh-shut up anon!
>>51295769
It's ok. Reductor Biologis may be a contradiction, but their OC Thallax don's really fit the Shock Trooper bill too well, nor do they complement the usual Reductor playstile.

>>51295821
>Archmagos, set new firing coordinates for my Ordinatus D-cannon
>Target: Her vagina

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>>51295879
>Imagine if I tell you to put away your flamers, or you, son of Medusa, your metal hand. Would you do it?
Why do plebs think they have any say against direct and explicit orders from the Emperor Himself?
>Yes I would, for disobedience is mutiny, and mutiny is treachery. Not that the Sagyar Mazyan know a lot about that, huh?

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World eaters best legion

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>>51295812
Not everyone.

>>51295946
If you play WE and don't mark your Plasma Support Squad sergeants with a chainblade on their plasmagun, are you even a WEbro?

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>>51295946
>>>>>>World Eaters
>Couldn't eat a single moon

51295976
Don't use your trip it just annoys everyone and stops the thread being annoying

>>51295976
>not posting the WE with a chainblade on his auspex

>>51295821
Augmentations, although admirable, appear unnecessary and inefficient. If optimization is desired, call at the nearest Mechanicum outpost. Good day.

>>51295875

Greetings, touring guests. Here you see the study bays, accessed when the optimization of cognitive function over physical is desired. Please enjoy the rest of the trip, and don't forget to stop at the enginseer barracks just past the vehicle pool for your complimentary electoo.
Ave Omnissiah!

>>51295812

Thanks. I'll be sure to post a few pictures once I get the first batch done, but seeing as this is the first "Major conversion" army I've done it may be a little shoddy, as I will probably be picking up a few skills on the way.

>>51295907

I was thinking a Reductor fleet containing lots of Genetors, tasked to investigate, assimilate strengths from and eradicate any particularly hardy Xenos beasts and races during the Crusade.
Since they distrust Cybernetica, they use bio-monstrosities for the most part, save Thanatars and possibly Vorax, since those are hard to replicate in flesh while remaining effective and still be simpler to control.
Hence the Phosphex fluffed as localised virus bombs, the Levy hordes as flash-cloned swarms of lesser Xenos and the Stormvermin/Ogryn hybrid Castellax substitutes.
Obviously heretical as fuck, but Xana was happy to lend them a dock in return for their unwanted spoils of war.

>>51295692
Actually, bald Word Bearers just shave their heads, as Lorgar's geneseed actually gives you perfect long flowing black hair and noble and regal facial features. This is canon.

>>51295943
The Imperial Fists would willingly tie one hand behind their back if the Emperor decreed it. The other legions... probably not. Maybe the Ultramarines, since they'd see it as a challenge to overcome through clever tactics.

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>>51296031
>Stormvermin/Ogryn hybrid Castellax substitutes.

>>51296006
I don't have it, I was on my phone the last time I saw that picture.

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>>51296044
>Maybe the Ultramarines, since they'd see it as a challenge to overcome through clever tactics.
Riiiight, Ultramarines ;^)

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>>51295946
the art attack head has fallen on hard times anon

>>51295882
Sauron deceived Satan?

Give tips helpful anons

Iron Hands- Legion's Pride RoW; 3,000 points

>Legion Praetor

>Terminator Squad- Land Raider Phobos/Armored Ceramite
>Terminator Squad- Land Raider Phobos/Armored Ceramite
>Tactical Squad- Full Squad
>Tactical Squad- Full Squad

>Apothecary Squad- 2 Apothecaries
>Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought- Twin Assault Cannons
>Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought- Twin Assault Cannons

>Vindicator
>Vindicator
>Deredeo Dreadnought- Plasma Cannonade

And then either a Stormblade or a Fellblade.

It comes out at just over 2,800 with the Stormblade, so what else should I do? It's also possible change the Deredeo for a Leviathan, if that's worth it.

How to effectively kit out the Terminators? Chainfists look pretty pleasing, as do Volkite/Plasma guns. Any other ideas for buffing out my units?

>>51296050
Oh yes, and a dash of Tyranid and/or Dark Eldar for weapons options, with Admech cybernetics to bring it all together.
I am going to have so many spares at the end of this project.

>>51296112
>It's better to be King in hell, than to be decieved by fookin Sauron!
Yes.

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>>51296130
Anon why u so heretek!

>>51296044
Alpha Legion might do it, if only because they can't be certain said hand isn't about to stab them.
EC too.

>>51296130
By the gods, you are mad. You actually plan to make Mechanicus army without using their actual models, so it fits your back story.

Rad

>>51296122
So PotL requires that a majority of your units have Legiones Astartes. Sadly you have too much AV.

Personally, plasma Deredeo isn't as good as other plasma, and the other options for it's guns.

>>51296112
>he doesn't view the elves as satan incarnate

>>51296041
As well as Lorgar himself shaving his head, as he had to re-apply his tattoos as his Primarch healing removed them in less than a month, iirc.

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Only 16 days to the terrorist attack at the Nottingham Belfry

Can anyone explain the appeal of the fellblade? Its main gun either puts out about the damage of a basilisk battery, or a single AP2 hit which isn't normally going to kill a tank. I don't get its appeal compared to the other superheavy tanks whose guns generally do something unique.

>>51295946
Should I post That Amgron? Or Those White Scars?

You know what I'm tlking about. You all know what this means.

>>51296150
I have friends in my heresy. It looks nicer from this side of things. We have so much more... creative licence.

>>51296189

Oh, I'm using some of the models because they are pure sex. Thanatar, Vorax and the smaller Dominus especially, plus Thallax. I had to convert a lot of stuff anyway for Reductor batteries and Arlatax if I wanted them, I may as well go the whole hog. Quite a lot of the Fantasy stuff works really well with some metal plating (Nid Carapace in metallic, plus rivets, if I can get it to work). Most of it works out cheaper too, just because you get 3 in a box and the boxes are still less, even with some bitz prices.

I've been busy with work and will be for the next few weeks, so I've had a lot of time to plan, but when it eases off I can finish off my 40k WarConvo and get started on this.

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>>51296345
It's ok.
Even then, the Reductor may not fully trust cybernetic mounstrosities, but they absolutely love anything marked as Siege Automata.
I'd assume they also favour the Thanatar Cynis, consigering it's more of a Siege-Assault Vanguard automata

>>51296305
>>>>>Implying implications that Inferno will be released
Inferno has been confirmed delayed till 8th ed anon.

>>51296305
Don't say that shit, they'll cancel the event.

>>51296384
>8th edition delayed until 9th edition is released.

>>51296122
Your list is illegal. You have five units with the Legiones Astartes special rule (i.e. infantry, but non-independent characters don't count) and six without (Dreadnoughts and tanks). But you're only using Pride of the Legion to take five Elites, so drop a Mortis and take the Head of the Gorgon rite of war. It will require replacing the Praetor with a Forge Lord, I think.

Leviathans are only worth it in a drop pod. Otherwise, don't do it.

Fully kit out one Terminator squad for assault - 2-3 chainfists for tanks, then a mix of power weapons or single lightning claws. The other squad... not sure. I'm leaning towards shooty but that works best if you're going to outflank them together (if using Head of the Gorgon).

>>51296192
Shit, I should've noticed that. Do dedicated transports count towards the total?

Also why do you not like the Plasma? For me, it seems like the most versatile loadout, as Lascannon is too expensive and lacks the firepower to reliably take down a lot- a squad of terminators with chainfisits are cheaper and can gib vehicles a lot easier. I like the auto cannons, but AP4 is damn near useless elsewhere.

>>51296373
>>51296345
So I'm running reductor with lots of artillery, is it worth me taking an allied detachment or ironfire iron warriors to laser guide my bombardments?

>>51295743
>>51295831
What Astartes don't have an organ to prevent helmet hair yet or something?

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I love watching this mohawked motherfucker play AL just to see those snakes get stomped.

>>51296475
Whom?

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>>51296475

>>51296489
>>51296504
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmbZwGluOIg

>>51296473
It's probably because it's easier to cut hair then design an organ to give some use to hair.
And it's not for 'helmet hair' so much as to allow for a full seal and not need to create giant ass helmets to fit a 300 year old beings hair.
Logistics sometimes wins in a fantasy setting.

>>51296489
quirk from MWG
shit at the rules, shit at the game, shit personality
god, i fucking hate MWG

>>51296411
Eight - the Land Raiders count, and Rhinos would too.

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>>51296373
Shame that thing's rules are so bad, or I'd probably get one for the looks.

I like the Vorax for looks, and I imagine any creature engineered to work as well as a Vorax would be so wild it would be more dangerous to control and use than the Cybernetica, which at least only go completely mental with fucked-up Cybertheurgy.

Also thinking about greenstuffing up some squid-things like this Huxley and implanting a Vox to make cyber-occularis. Big lumpy sphere with tentacles can't be too tricky for even my greenstuff skills, there's plenty of tutorials for the latter. Bit smaller, obviously, and with less detail than the artist managed, but I think some judicious Nid parts will help.

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>>51296543
I thought you were going to make Vultarax count-as

>>51296437
As it doesn't mention they're excluded, dedicateds count against you yes.

The plasma costs more points, lower strength and even has a Gets hot. Vindicators or Medusa are better blasts. The Deredeo is still meant for AT with S8 sunder crippling most vehicles and the las outright killing others. It's also the best AA platform as it can basically kill most flyers the turn they come on, rather than a Mortis with Kheres.

>>51296521
>"and I have the valencio, the thing that let's me reroll my morale checks"
>"and my heavy support squad has four missile launchers and a heavy bolter on the sergeant"
And that's about 2:30 in. I don't think I can handle watching the rest.

>>51296309
Versatile and durable enough to fight anything and contribute

>>51296475
I mostly see him doing the delpoy alpharius and dynat alone out of LoS gimmick that only works on entry-level players.

Though I did see him lose ro RG recently. Would have been a bigger stomp if the RG player remembered all of coraxs rules.

Tell me more of him losing

>>51296559
By the Omnissiah that's cute.
I want a million, and I want each one to be modelled with tiny face claws smooshing it's cheeks in an "oh my gosh" face.

>>51296525
Nah dog if we want to go full 80s Rogue Trader goofiness give an extra feature to the Mucranoid being that it seeps into and hardens a Marine's when necessary to provide a emergency combat helmet if needed.
Give all those topknots and mohawks some use.

>>51296559
Now THERE'S a good use for those Tervigon sacs I'd have left over from the first builds. I suspect my Chaos friend might have some spare Havoc Launchers and I have a bunch of Kataphron heavy arc rifles.

That might be good to try once I have the basic stuff done, since I'd have most of two Tervigon kits left. I am never going to be able to do all these ideas, but at least I'll never run out. This is going to be brilliant.

>>51296622
I'm glad we concur. Why is every robot tentacle drone adorable?

>>51296655
>*Marine's hair
I can't do the typings right today.

>>51296675
Tervigon sacs have pretty clearly defined Termagant heads in them anon.

>>51291691
Terran recruiting grounds, big black book numero uno. Lots of their marine names are based on words from both regions, ie Garviel Loken, Tarik Torgaddon etc etc.
Additionaly, Cthonian gang markings are based on Sumeric, though there's no in-universe connection.
I'll post in the correct thread eventually

>>51296761
So they do. Dammit. Ah well, I suppose I'd have the parts anyway, so I'll see what I can do with file ,greenstuff and sculpting tool. If not, I suppose I can make a "Cannon fodder cloning vat" for my Ghoul Levies, some of which will probably have Gant heads and lots will have gant guns, since you get loads per 12-gant box.

Anyone have experience playing with or against the unique Sallies Dread Cassian Draco? I'm building a Sallies force and am wondering how much I should expect from him on the tlable.

>>51296437
Heavy support squads usually have missile launchers. Volkites and lascannons sometimes get used (the latter with a bunker or void shield generator), but plasma isn't terrible.

Small non-heavy support squads in drop pods are good suicide mission units with meltas for tanks or plasma for terminators. Veterans with combi-weapons and the appropriate veteran skill are even better, if you have the elite slots. You're better off switching Rites of War, so you won't. I don't think you need one of these units anyway.

>>51295943

The Khans literal only reason for staying loyalist was because he promised to. You can't get much more distant than that before you're traitor.

>>51297001
I have a friend that runs him in damn near every game he plays.
He is a bastard and a half to deal with if you don't have outflanking or deepstriking elements to hit him in the rear or shitload of haywire and even then it's a crapshoot what with his invul.
The Leviathan he fields too usually goes down faster from what I've seen.

>>51297146
I like to think Khan would still have sided with the Loyalists.
Remember the verbal bitchslapping he gave Morty?

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>>51297260

He found his reason for not joining the traitors because he was disgusted with them but he had little loyalty to the Imperium himself.

He very likely could have ended up as the only blackshield primarch had things turned out differently.

>alt 40k has the Khan and the White Scars as a wild card that circles the outer reaches of the galaxy being mongols and hunting monsters for sport

>>51297314
>He very likely could have ended up as the only blackshield primarch had things turned out differently.
Oh how I wish that happened. WOuld be the best retcon if it did

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>>51297146
It was more than that. He knew a little bit about the Warp, enough to know there were scary things behind the veil. And he found out from Magnus just how deep the traitors were getting into those things. Even mocked Mortarion for siding with the traitors because he was so anti-psyker, only to become surrounded by budding sorcerers.

If he hadn't known about Horus's corruption, then it would have only been about his oath and I agree, that wouldn't have been a great reason.

>>51297337

I totally agree that he hates Chaos and the idiots who fell for it, I just find that to be a separate issue from being loyal to the Imperium.

I do suppose though that the Khan figured he could fuck up his Chaos addled idiot brothers better if he stayed with the Emperor rather than just go full Mongol.

>>51296154
>literal traitor scum
>listening to anything the emperor says

So I've got currently assembled but unpainted:

>3 medusas (hand me downs I swear I didn't buy them to lose friends)
>1 vindicator
>1 damocles rhino
>1 deredeo

But I play two different legions (alphas and white scars) and I'm not actually sure which ones should go to which side.

List wise I'm okay already for both although WS's are a bit smaller overall so its more about the fluffiness/cool factor more than anything else.

>>51297598
Give the Damocles to the Scars, Deredeo to the Alphas and make the rest Iron Warriors.

>>51297314
>>alt 40k has the Khan and the White Scars as a wild card that circles the outer reaches of the galaxy being mongols and hunting monsters for sport
>mainstream 40k has the Raven Guard legion master successor and the Terran Raven Guard as a wild card that circles the outer reaches of the galaxy being douchebags and hunting children for neophytes

So Carcharodons?

>>51297706
Yes, but with an active Primarch and much bigger.

>>51297706

More bikes, less edge. White Scars are quite celebratory when they get to do their thing.

>>51297758
>much bigger.
No one knows the scope of the Sharks. The Ashen Claws are doing a second Great Crusade in the Ghoul Stars in modern 40k. The could be legion or larger by now.

>>51297881
The Carcharodons Astra are compliant, as their first task in the Imperium was to help in the Crusade of Blood(?) in M32, iirc.

>>51297598
If you use Dynat, give the Damocles to the AL army for extra reserves manipulation. If you deep strike jetbikes, maybe WS could use it.

I’d give the Vindicator to the Scars and the Deredeo and Medusas to the AL. Are they legion Medusas? If they’re the 40k model, model them as if human AL operatives are manning them.

>>51297904
>The Carcharodons Astra are loyalist
FTFY
Carcharodons play by their own rules set down by the Void Father and follow the Edicts of Exile and Predation.

They are loyalist but being 'compliant' is something different. Most recent example is when they abducted an imperial worlds population as a tithe. The left a lifeless world with no witnesses behind.

>>51297881
There's no way Terran RG would be bigger than the entire WS, especially with Jaghatai.

>>51297987
in 30k no, we're talking about alt 40k so its possible

>>51297951
Wat

>>51297951
Does that happen in Red Tithe?

Is there a pdf? Haven't read it but wasn't it a prison world? Don't think the Imperium really gives a fuck prisonners are being taken away yo be turned into loyalists SM.

Unless you were talking about the Mantis Warriors recruits after the Badab War, where they simply applied the Law of the Victor, i.e. I kicked your ass now gimme your shit you pleb.

>>51298033

Carcharodons seem too ghetto to be overly large in 40k. That new novel talks about how one company only has 86 suits and even less men to fill it after a battle.

>>51298063

That's what the "red" tithe is. Grey tithes are loot I think. I've only read the 1st free chapter and the free part of the little tie-in prequel where they mention the colored tithes.

>>51298052
>>51298063
Im taking about the prequel to Red Tithe, Reaping Time.

It was about a mining world that had a rebellion and destroyed an imperial tithe ship. The audience can infer that the Carcharodons intercepted the internal memo that the tithe ship idssapeared. The Sharks go to the planet to look for tithe info. The rebels thinkk its about the missing tithe ship but the Sharks want their own personal tithe. They kill all the rebels and the loyalist are like "DUDE WTF" and the sharks were like "Its Reaping Time" and abduct or kill EVERYONE and leave the planet lifeless.

>>51298076
Havent read the new book, but the Ashen Claws could be legion+. THeyve had 10k years of crusading.

>>51298063
>Is there a pdf?
I checked the megas, no luck

>>51298033
If a blackshield Jaghatai had 10k years to build up, it would be much larger than the sharks.
Fulgrim went from 200-300 to what, 100,000 marines? In 2 centuries.

>>51298120
>Havent read the new book, but the Ashen Claws could be legion+. THeyve had 10k years of crusading.

So have the Black Templars.

>>51298133
Never said the BT didnt. So they could be up there too. They probably are

>>51298126

it would be appropriate

I mean, they would be the Mongol Horde of 40k

>>51298133
only 1100 marines anon :^)

Honestly they should have changed 40k chapters to 10,000 and legions to 1,000,000 when they first retconned the numbers. Even as "stretched thin" as the 40k imperium is, 1,000 is pointlessly small for a chapter.

>>51298146

They aren't.

>>51298146
They're not and have never been, that's the fucking point. If you're actually crusading you're going to be losing marines often as fast or faster than you're recruiting.

If you want to bulk up your numbers you do mass conscription with shortcuts, like the Minotaurs do, not this crusade stupidity. Crusades are literally what chapters get sentenced to do (without recruitment) as a DEATH PENALTY and you think it's a good idea for bulking numbers?

>>51298126
>Fulgrim went from 200-300 to what, 100,000 marines? In 2 centuries.

According to Index Astartes, it take 50 years to get a chapter from 0 to full strength, so seem doable. Seeing that each marine produces two sets of gene-seeds, the amount of marines grows exponentially. I'm sure there's logistical constraints, losses, etc. to consider during that time.

>>51298226

Geneseed grows fast, the limiting factor is the training and growth of the neophytes. You don't want to be putting 10 year olds in tactical squads.

>>51296411
>It will require replacing the Praetor with a Forge Lord, I think.
Nah, Praetor is fine. Besides, a Forge Lord is a Consul, he doesn't have Rite of War. Maybe you're thinking of Iron Father?

Either way, that's not how the restriction works. You can only take one Consul, with the exception of the Forge Lord. So, you could take just the Praetor, you could take the Praetor and any other Consul, or you could take the Praetor, any other Consul, and THEN have to take to a Forge Lord if for some reason you want another HQ that isn't a Damocles.

Head of the Gorgon has surprisingly little restriction, really. No allied space marines (but allied Mechanicum is okay), only one FA slot (you weren't taking more than one anyway), and the Consul restriction that really doesn't even restrict you at all.

>>51298133
>>51298146
There's a solid difference between Carcharodons/Ashen Claws and BT though.

One operates a predation pattern fleet, taking shit from other people, never stopping, and basically barely holding it together as they ABOVE the galactic plane fighting fuck knows what, without any base of operation or supplying whatsoever.

The other never stops but has the habit of building little fortresses everywhere it calls dibs, and it WILL skullfuck you if you dare set a foot in said fortress when they aren't here. But they don't always leave the fortresses unatended. Most of the time they're garrisons of sort, still in Imperial space, or at least where there are worlds, SOMETHING to have get a hold on when you need a breather.

The Space Sharks have jackshit, the cold void space, litteraly nothing. They just hang around and wait (Don't know about the new book but the FFG books made them out to be practically statues when nothing was going on) for a prey.

Not exactly hard to understand why one chapter is doing much better than the other.

>>51298162

It kinda puts into perspective how "small" most conflicts in 40k are or justifies multi chapter involvement in campaigns.

But yeah seriously Chapters should just be 10k.

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>>51298193
Just because theyre bad at crusading doesnt mean everyone else is

>>51298193
>They're not and have never been, that's the fucking point
Do you like doing that? Going on the internet and telling lies? They've been between 1,000-6,000(or more) since the 4e codex

>>51298294
>They've been between 1,000-6,000(or more) since the 4e codex

Does that look like 10,000 or 100,000 to you, you fucking dipshit?

>>51298294

What is that image even supposed to prove? Because they call themselves a legion, they're actually at legion strength? Because they took 1000 recruits all 1000 would survive?

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>>51298226
>50 years to 0 to full strength

Index Astartes is old as shit though.
And it was probably talking about a 1st founding chapter with all the help it can get.

100 to 200 years seems more likely to me (just my headcanon). You can have numbers, but you also need equipment and experience. What are you going to do, throw a thousand marines that have no experience whatsoever into war all at once? You have to take some, teach them, make them fight, so that they can teach in turn etc.

Pdf related has a chapter barely rebuilding a company in what is several decades IIRC. It shows and talks about how they're not a bigass ast founding chapter to begin with, and how that impacts them.

Read the book it's damn good (its everything a book about an unknown chapter should be) and it's not even being sold because of legal shenanigans anyway. Plus it's WS successors and these don't get much screentime as it is.

>>51298294
>They've been between 1,000-6,000(or more) since the 4e codex
And then 6e happened, BT were rolled into main codex and aren't really much bigger than anyone else now because new fluff. BT being a crusade chapter really only means they're mobile.

And they might have just recently lost most of the chapter when Cadia blew up, I'm not sure, still haven't read that book.

>>51298243
Well, not that fast. There's some 10 years implantation and treatment before they even get stuck with the progenoids, after which it takes 5 and 10 years before the progenoids can be harvested, treated and stored for future gene-seed use. So it takes at least 20 years to get two sets out. But even with a few hundred marines, with 20 years cycles and possible deaths, rejections, failures, etc. considered, in less than 200 years you could have 100,000 marines.

>>51298371
>Pdf related has a chapter barely rebuilding a company in what is several decades IIRC

It all depends on whether they continue to suffer casualties or not.

>>51298294
BT canonically have 1100 men, though they just lost an entire company as of FoC, so about -100. Making them 1000 and the size of a perfectly compliant chapter.

>>51298394

It takes longer than 20 years to train even the freshest marines.

>>51298371
>Index Astartes is old as shit though.

It's still the only official number I've seen. I'm sure it's found in other sources, probably some SM codexes for sure.

>And it was probably talking about a 1st founding chapter with all the help it can get.

It's talking about how Marine chapters are set up, so clearly it's talking about how things are done in the grimderpness of the far future, not 30k era stuff. I seem to recall the BA recovering from nigh destruction to full strength in similar amount of time.

>>51298394
You forget the fact that the vast majority of recruits don't even make it to full marine. Just because the process is so damn grueling, hard and genetically restraining. You get 1 marine out of god knows many proper recruits just because the implants are rejected by the body and they die.

>>51298464

Think it's 1 out of 100 or something like that. 1 out of 1000 would be nonsensical, and taking 1000 bodies to replace the loss of 10 casualties sounds reasonable, as you'd have to do really hard fighting to lose 10 marines at once in the fluff.

>>51298397
Nope, completely at peace. They had suffered an attack on their homeworld, and the wjole point of rebuilding wa dthat they withrew from combat to rebuild the chapter and the monastery.

Read the book dude, it's genuinely good. Hell their Forge Master is a healthy dude put of his own will in a Nought, dating back to the heresy, because they had so few techmarines.

>>51298063
FOR FUCKS SAKE ADD THIS TO THE FUCKING MEGA
https://mega.nz/#!R1ZyhSRT
Carachadons, red tithe
I'm sick of having to ask/deliver books that have already been posted, just cause whoever runs the mega/OPs won't add them.


Speaking of which, does anyone have a copy of shadowsword? Its not in the archives, the mega or that weird vk page that posts books.


I hope you enjoy the book anon.

>>51298162
>>51298261
But if you set a chapter at 1,000, then there's the possibility of people buying models they'll never use, just to reach the magic 1k.

>>51298434
After the black carapace is implanted, the Marine is fully grown and ready to join the ranks. Codex adherent ones put them into scout squads, the likes of SW put them in power armour.

I doubt legions circulated their recruits through needless branches and just stuck fresh marines into tactical squads. They've already been training for all the time they've been being implanted. Those "fresh recruits" have years of training behind them.

>>51298448
Which is exactly what I'm saying.

Building a chapter from the ground up, supervised by the high lords, with all the material might of the imperium behinf is "easy" and "quick", same for a 1st founding chapter that can call upon favors and successors to litteraly give their marines away.

A small unknown chapter that got its ass handed to him will have trouble to rebuild, with its scarce ressources.

>>51298336
I cant help you very much if you cant extrapolate from incomplete data. But ill try:

One example does not tell us the whole story. What we are supposed to infer is that the Ashen Claws are crusading and recruiting secretly in the Ghoul Stars. One company has gained 1,000 bondsmen as part of the Crusade. This tells us that as they are Crusading and recruiting as they go. If they do this with each company, of which there are 4 minimum, over the course of 10k years, in which the size and number of companies can expand. You could be looking at a full legion or more by modern warhammer.

>>51298516
Thanks bruv!

Looking forward to reading Shadowsword. Baneblade is in my top 3, with Umbra Sumus and Deathwatch by Steve Parker, so I'm sure I'll love the sequel.

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>>51298394
>Well, not that fast. There's some 10 years implantation and treatment before they even get stuck with the progenoids, after which it takes 5 and 10 years before the progenoids can be harvested, treated and stored for future gene-seed use. So it takes at least 20 years to get two sets out.
Not to undermine your point, but back in the day the Legions could shit out fully grown marines in maybe 20 years or less, because they had Primarch DNA to stabilize them.
In fact this accelerated recruitment, quantity over quality, was one of the factors that led to the Heresy, SOME say.

Now in 40k they take about 80 years to graduate from Neophyte to full battle brother.

>>51298516
What's the key?

>>51298589
Srry.
Correction: Legions created turn people into marines in a single year.

I've come to realize fortifications and really cool scenery set pieces get me hard. How do I Imperial Fists?

>>51298464
>You forget the fact that the vast majority of recruits don't even make it to full marine

What exactly did you think "possible deaths, rejections, failures, etc." meant?

If we start with 250 marines and each of them produce 500 sets of progenoids, and all of those are successfully implanted into 500 recruits who become 500 new marines with progenoids of their own, and this continues in 20 year cycles for 200 years with no losses of any sort, you'd end up with well over a million marines. 100,000 is less than tenth of that, so there's plenty of room for failures, deaths, etc.

>>51298623

spray brown, layer yellow, wash sepia brown. Easy.

Also buy fortifications and use lots of bolters. Seekers are your friends. Also storm shield terminators and Sigismund.

>>51298516
What's they key though? Am I missing something there?

>>51298525
They could've just added another division of 1000 within each chapter, like a "merry band of space men" or something

>>51298639
Not how I paint, how do I play? Shit ton of fortifications, arty and bolter boys?

>>51298555
The 50 years is for a fresh chapter started from scratch with no infrastructure, just High Lords signing off on the formation of the chapter and telling Admech to crack open a gene-seed bear.

>>51298671

Hell yeah. Remember they're BS5 with all bolter weapons so even your tactical squads can put down the hurt and Seekers with the BS buff and their small blasts are high-larious.

>>51298589
Pretty sure that accelerated growth thing came later in the crusade.

>Now in 40k they take about 80 years to graduate from Neophyte to full battle brother.

That's not due to any biological constraints. The moment the 19th implant is put into the Marine, which is done around age 18, when their growth has ceased, they're biologically as much of a Marine as any other. Most chapters put them into scout squads to slowly train them. Space Wolves, for example, give them a power armour.

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>>51295692
>I love my upgrade kits
>Seriously FW treated me right, 10 unique helmets and 5 swaggy chests

How do the rest of you feel about your upgrades?

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>>51298799
Fuck you.
At least the helmet are nice, even if I only have 3 different types.

>>51298799
I'm seriously not a fan of kits that come with different helmet styles. Especially if there's some style that I really like, but it's like 2-3 helmets in a set of 10. Luckily I play DG and 8/10 heads are identical.

>>51298637
In order to get the second progenoid, you're killing off a perfectly good marine candidate each time. For most chapters, good quality neophytes are their limiting factor, not the amount of geneseed they have. Most chapters don't have nearly enough viable candidates who will survive both the implantation and the first 10 years to get the next generation out of them. The Crimson Castellans, for instance, cull a hive world's undercity for candidates every few years and only manage to pull up 3 to 5 that meet all the criteria. Using your method, they'd very quickly run out of viable candidates.

>>51298604
>>51298651
Ummm.... There shouldn't be one?
Try !Gp0RGQ_iw_o8eEkQwS2uKhXTN_IsDhdW-KEWBZHSCsM though.

>>51298582
If you buy it, please share it here. I can't afford all these books :O.

>>51298859
That did it! Thank you!

>>51298832
Just cast your own.
I only like one Thousand Sons upgrade kit head so I just copy that.

>>51298738
>Pretty sure that accelerated growth thing came later in the crusade.
Most of 30k happens late or after the Great Crusade. That particular quote is in HH1, which is supposedly a compilation right after the Heresy, or ongoing it.
But it matters little, since all of the games happen after it, and we have accounts of legions stabilizing the geneseed after the arrival of their primarchs, namely the Emperor's Children, the Blood Angels and the Thousand Sons.
>That's not due to any biological constraints
Never said it was. It's mostly training.
Avitus looks and is considered to be young and he's 82 years old.

>>51298836
>Sir we have population problem on Hive World Aichaichjee
>Fuck it, tell the nearest chapter they can start legion building with Anon's methods

200 years later, 50 billions men were taken away for jackshit as the vast majority of them weren't viable candidates and the chapter has become the laughing stock of the Index Astartes, as the chapter has so many servitors it dosent even know what to do with them. They just give them away whenever they can, and the other Chapters call this one the Chinks.

>>51298836
>In order to get the second progenoid, you're killing off a perfectly good marine candidate each time.

[citation needed]

Because all articles relating to the creation of space marines say that the Phase 18 implantation puts a zygote into the neck and chest, and these are harvested at 5 and 10 years after implantation, and are the only source for gene-seeds to make more marines. Nothing about killing the marine they were implanted into.

>>51298888
>Avitus
I meant Thaddeus. You know, the blonde one.

>>51298859
Thanks love!

>>51298872
The time and effort it would take the get good enough is not worth it for me. And like I said, 8 out of 10 heads is good enough for me.

>>51298898
>[citation needed]
Guess who.
http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/index.php?showtopic=1959&view=findpost&p=40002179

>>51298898
You're right, although it's often said this method (harvesting as soon as you can) is only done when rebuilding, as the longer it stays with a marine, the more knowledge it can store and be in turn goven to someone else, who will store more knowledge etc.

That's the reason why geneseed is so damn important, it's basically a databank. Hell, Rafen of the BA basically ended up with geneseed descended from the dude that became the Red Angel and had a chat with him 10k years after the Heresy thanks to that.

>>51298898
Maybe the fact that apothecaries have a narthecium and use it on marines way older than 10 years?

>>51298943
>it's often said
As fan theories. There is zero lore that states this.

>>51298859

Cheers! Don't suppose Primogenitor is also hovering around?

>>51298888
>It's mostly training.

Also filling out the different roles. Not all scouts, devs or assault marines are n00bs. Some have chosen to stay in that position (which is why their sergeants are not WS3 BS3). And there's always a need for devs and scouts, even if the chapter doesn't recruit nor lose anyone for 500 years. You can't advance if there's no spot for you to advance into. 1st company can only have 100 marines, even if you have dudes in the 5th company who have been around for a longer time.

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>>51298799
IH upgrade bits are good, and IH marine/tactical kit is even better. Flesh is weak, but resin is sexy.

I haven't checked if you buy the plastic marines in B@C/BoP + the addon bits, but I know that the resin bits + resin models are definitely way more expensive than just getting the IH five man dudes kit.

>>51298939
He can say whatever he likes, as long as the official texts say different, I don't care what BL claims.

>>51298955
Yeah, to harvest the gene-seeds, not the progenoids (assuming they've been harvested already). I mean, why let those organs go to waste when they can be used on a new marine?

>>51298799
>implying I got an upgrade set

FW really needs to do more than just the main legions. They even give upgrade sets for shitters like Skitarii so why don't Terran legions and Blackshields have them?

>>51299011
Gene-seed IS the progenoid! They're not pulling random implants out of them.

>>51298559

Why the fuck do you keep responding to posts about the BT with Astral Claws shit? maybe that's why nobody can follow you, retard

>>51299011
Umm...the progenoid is what contains the gene-seed that gets used to grow a new set of implants. Even in the oldest marines, there's going to be one progenoid that isn't removed until they die.

>>51298967
Nigger that's the whole damn point of geneseed. The longer you leave it i amarine the better it will be afterwards. You have to weigh the risks of leaving it in marines in case it gets destroyed when the marines are killed or whatnot.

Legion of the Damned has the whole company harvested before getting slaughtered to a man by a black crusade, because they knew they were going to die.

See it like datacard:
What should you do?
Leave it in the device, so that it stores info, for as long as you can, knowing you NEED that datacard to make new devices, so if your device crash and burn (and it will eventually) you risk losing the datacard?
Or you do leave it there juuust long enough to make another device, not risking having it destroyed, but in turn giving you another datacard with barely any info on it in comparison?

>>51299021

>terrans

They looked like completely vanilla marines and they had furious charge or stubborn

Also it's called Horus Heresy not Great Crusade

>>51299052

They should make a game called the Great Crusade.

>>51298464
Based on the initiation info in Praetorian of Dorn (which might only apply to IF), it would have taken 30 million little boys to make a legion of 100,000. Without losses.

Other legions MUST have had higher success rates, otherwise the ones that recruit from feral worlds would have eliminated those planets' populations. Any planet with fewer than 100 million people would be devastated even if you recruited slowly enough to reach legion size at the end of 200 years. I'd say you need 1 billion to be comfortable - but you're still taking away the top 2% of the planet's boys (and killing 99.7% of them), which must have interesting Darwinian effects.

Also, you know how a lot of the primarchs elevated their friends to Space Marine status? (Yesugei, Luther, can't think of who else right now.) They all seemed to survive. Maybe Dorn's so surly because all of his childhood friends were killed by the procedures.

>>51298516
>Key doesn't work

Either I'm a retard who can't copy paste or my phone is fucking with me.

>>51299011
"Apothecary, these courageous field surgeons facing the full heat of battle, their nartheciums healing even grievous injuries, and their vials of combat stimms and anticoagulants quickly getting wounded brothers back into the fight. They also administer the Emperor’s grace to those beyond help, extracting the progenoid glands containing the gene-seed so that the Space Marine’s legacy might live on." - Codex: Space Marines 7th ed.

>>51299048
But isn't it possible to harvest the gene seed after the marine dies? That runs the risk of losing it obviously but assuming enough of the marines body was still intact?

>>51298969
>Not all scouts, devs or assault marines are n00bs. Some have chosen to stay in that position (which is why their sergeants are not WS3 BS3)
I'm aware. Not necessarily people like Sgt Telion "The End" and Cyrus "Blum", but merely random marines that at the end of their Scout->Devastator->Assault->Tactical training they decide they want to go back to any of those roles as sgts.

But one of those sgts is pretty much identical to a Devastator NOOB, and you gotta pay for vet sgts.

Not to mention Scout marines are now WS4 BS4.

>>51299069
But anon, IF geneseed has always had a low acceptance rate. IW geneseed has always had a higher than average acceptance rate.

>>51299069
They do. Imperial Fists were considered to have one of the most painful and difficult implantation processes.

>>51299124
Same anon here.
And go back not necessarily as sgts, srry.
Dammit I wish I could edit comments and such.
This ain't the discord :^)

>>51299069
Kor Phaeron, although he's noted as havinf suffered in the process, and being a half assed marine.

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that IF had shit retention rate, seeing how they have 2 organs malfunction in 40k, ranking them as one of the "least" pure loyalist stock, compared to, say, UM or DA.

We know that the IW have the best retention rate. Which suits me just fine, I play them and I like to think I'd get taken in the Legion cus their standards are probably lower.

>>51299040
Then why does it say they're removed after 5 and 10 years? Where, other than Goldie shitting something out of his ass on a forum, does it say the removal of the second set of progenoids will kill the Marine and that chapters keep one set of progenoids tucked inside every marine?

>>51299068

Other than Ullanor, the great crusades adversaries were all one off factions of the week for the space marines to kill.

Now doing the Scouring through the Beast crisis would be amazing as fuck since it gives room for new LA rules for 2nd founding chapters and for xenos to finally join the game (in an appropriate and not horrifyingly OP way)

>>51299069
>Maybe Dorn's so surly because all of his childhood friends were killed by the procedures.
:'(
Russ' friends volunteered to marine conversion, knowing the high risk of death.
But it doesn't mention how many of them survived, only that Mr Wulfen drank from the Cup of Wulfen and became a Wulfen.

AWOOOOO

>>51299144
Yeah, you'd be culled after initiation instead of during =].

>>51296475
I wish that fuck would get fired.
It's your JOB to play these games, and know the rules. Stop constantly fucking up.

>>51299069

A) Fists really do have one of the worst gene seeds for making new boys.

B) I don't think thats "29 million 9 hundred thousand dead kids per 100,000 marines" but more like it takes that many kids SCREENED to find enough to make that many marines.

>>51299149

Their FIRST progenoid gland is removed after 5 to 10 years. their SECOND is not until they're dead.

>>51299124
>Not to mention Scout marines are now WS4 BS4.

I see so little use of them that I can't keep up which version GW is pushing now. But that just illustrates the point even more. Your fresh Marines hot off the press are better at shootin' and stabbin' than trained guardsmen. So they must have done something during all that time.

>>51298967
I thought gene-seed carrying some form of genetic data, including memories is a cornerstone of marine lore. It's half of the entire Blood Angel schtick for one thing.

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>>51299144
>their standards are probably lower.
None of that, marine.
You gotta study, and if you don't pass the finals then it's earlier-than-usual decimation to you, now open your copy of the Principia Belicosa and don't dare to speak to me again until you've earned a PhD.

Also, Kor is a half marine because he was given operations and treatments, possibly gene seedy...but I think he doesn't have all the organs.

He's closer to an Imperial Militiaman with one of the Provenances. And even then those are T4.
Kor is Instan Killed by plasma guns.

>>51299116
It is, that's the role of the Apothecary. The progenoid gland are actually fairly sturdy, able to resist to vacumm and other stuff for quite some time, but getting your marine melted down by plasma, lazer, or a melta in the face kinda invalidates that.

Helsreach has a moment where the Apothecary breaks down in front of Grimaldus and start naming every marine that died in the defense of what looks like a worthless city, and quite a lot of them are a complete loss, with gene seed destroyed or the body not retrieved from the Orks. Death by flamer is often mentionned when geneseed is lost IIRC.

Hence my point. If you leave it the marine, you have the possibility of getting better, more stable geneseed (and stability is VERY important for geneseed) but at the risk of completely losing when shit hits the fan.

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>>51299201
There's the little problems of you still not giving me a source on that claim.

>>51299216
>you have the possibility of getting better, more stable geneseed

[citation needed]

>>51299205
You mean the clearly psychic connection between Sanguinius and his sons? Sure. But that's primarch to marine. The argument going on is if this occurs between marine generations.

>>51299255
Oh for fuck's sake go read one of the numerous books that mention it in a line among 400 pages.

Stop your wanking about building a legion in 200 years. It ain't happening.

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I thought geneseed acceptance had to do with the genetics of the recruits. Correct me if I'm wrong. Have a picture and quotes that might as well be said out of Morty's mouth.

>>51299263
Nor him but I mentionned a case. Can't remember the short story, but I talked about it here >>51298943.

It was between marine and marine.

>>51299241
Not him, but if you're looking for a source about the 2nd progenoid not being removed after 10 years, we could probably name a dozen books where geneseed recovery from dead marines is mentioned.
>BL
If you're just wanting a codex or something, I dunno.
>>51299263
Again, it's
>BL
But there's a short story about a chaos marine (IW I think) from the Heresy who spends his Long War hunting down every gene-seed descendant of his HH adversary (a Fist?). The one in the novel has a moment of deja-vu when they meet.

Of course, the whole thing is being orchestrated by a chaos power who finds it hilarious, so perhaps the loyalist guy almost recognises the dude because of that.

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>>51299289
>Have a picture and quotes that might as well be said out of Morty's mouth.
Fucc u twice m8
But Morty was all about muh Barbaran genetics.
I think Death Guard geneseed was difficult to accept...but Barbaran people could survive anthing, so they were a good match.

>>51299284
I'm not gonna go and look for evidence to back up your arguments. If it's so common, you shouldn't have any problems finding it yourself.

>Stop your wanking about building a legion in 200 years. It ain't happening.

How long do you think it took for the Marine legions to get built in the first place, anon?

>>51299186
Why not? It's 300 kids for one marine. The book says that in the first phase, fewer than 1 in 100 survive (30 million -> less than 300,000). Then it says "most" die during the next phase - that brings us under 150,000. Then they enter training and a bunch more die.

>>51299345
No one's arguing that the 30k legions couldn't build themselves up pretty quickly. It's if they're still capable of doing so in M41.

>>51299315
I'm sure there can be, but the claim has been that 1) the process will kill the Marine, which is why it's not done before, and b) leaving it in the oven for decades if not centuries more, will result in ultra rare super gene-seed with a 100% success rate upon implantation.

>>51299330
It fits with his personality.
>But Morty was all about muh Barbaran genetics.
I think Death Guard geneseed was difficult to accept...but Barbaran people could survive anthing, so they were a good match.
So they had a high acceptance rate? Shame how never did get the legion as numerous as he wanted.

>>51299388
>Ultra rare geneseed

Not that, but less likely to have deficiencies and mutations.

I wasn't the one arguing taking progenoid glands from living marines would kill them, on the contrary I quoted a book explicitly having a whole company harvested before a fight because they were doomed and sent the Appthecary away.

>>51299369
It is? Seeing that we're in /hhg/ and anon talked about EC going from 200-300 marines to 100,000 in some 200 years, I just wanted to chime in with what we know of Marine implantation. I never advocated for 40k legion building, only that 100,000 marines out of a few hundred in two centuries, even with 40k era implantation and cultivation procedures, isn't impossible. Naturally legions have better systems in place and don't bullshit their recruits through several branches of the military before their training is complete.

>>51298968
>>51298869
>>51298869
Aww thanks guys

I don't know about primo but if you search the archive you might find a link. Failing that check out warhammer_art_of_war on vk, they often have books. Just no shadowsword.

>>51299427
Having the primarchs to help stabalize older gene-seed scrape fresh gene-seed from probably means supply of gene-seed isn't as big a deal as it would be in M41.

But part of that is also that most of the legions had far more lax qc procedures when it came to their recruiting. Sure, there were some checks in place, but they weren't getting even a fraction of the psycho-evaluation that M41 marines get, now that it's well known about the corrupting influence of chaos. Plus, with legions, if a marine came out a little messed up, you can throw them in a reserve company and forget about them. Chapters don't have that luxury.

>>51299427
The EC (and in later material, the WE, maybe others) are said to have used genetic material and data taken directly from their primarch to speed up their successful recruitment.
Not disagreed with anything being discussed, just throwing in that there were ways to 'shortcut' even the normal, presumably superior implantation procedures in 30K over 40K.

>>51299427
But that's the thing, in 40k, Chapters have to rely on marines' geneseed (the one found in orogenoid glands) to make new artificial organs in vitro, that will then be implanted. That is the one and only way to have new organs and in turn, muhreens.

Whereas in 30k, they could make those organs artificially. They didn't need marines to make other marines. The organs were stable, no mutations whatsoever.

In 40k you have worse components and a worse, more prone to fuck ups and to external failures production method when trying to obtain new organs.

Thus, what was possible in 30k isn't in 40k. You can't just shit out marines like you used to, because litteraly every part of the process has become harder. The organs needed are harder to get and even when you do get them, they're more prone to failure and in turn death of the recruit.

Anyhoo.

>>51299511
>They didn't need marines to make other marines. The organs were stable, no mutations whatsoever.
I wouldn't go that far. You still needed to mature progenoids and there were still mutations of all sorts. Legions just cared less about them.

>>51299511
>Whereas in 30k, they could make those organs artificially.

So what was the point of even giving Marines progenoids in the first place if you just made them in a lab?

>You can't just shit out marines like you used to

Not like you used to, but even with a 90% failure rate, in 200 years with 20 year cycles, 250 marines could be turned into 100,000 marines. 99% failure rate would still net 10,000 marines.

>>51299429
>warhammer_art_of_war

I'm totally pants at navigating that place to look for books, but cheers for the recommendation.

>>51299429

Found it, you glorious bastard. Thank you.

>>51299561
>but even with a 90% failure rate, in 200 years with 20 year cycles, 250 marines could be turned into 100,000 marines.
Not even close.
At 0% failure, you're doubling each cycle. At 90% failure you're increasing by 10% each cycle. That means you're adding 25 marines first cycle, 27.5 marines second cycle, up to 589.5 marines at 10 cycles.

For a 99% failure rate, 10 cycles only gets you to 273 marines from your starting 250.

>>51299511
There's also a lot less time and effort put into psychological training. There's a reason that 30k marines don't have AKTSKNF, and it's not just because a game of nothing but pseudo-fearless power armor blobs would be boring as fuck. Actually, that is the main reason, but there is fluff behind it.

>>51299653
Thanks anon, some logic in here, that was needed.

>>51299588
I'd recommend the search function and googles auto translator.

>>51299708
Of course there's fluff behind it. They haven't accepted the Codex Astartes as their chapter-lord and brother-savior yet.

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Just thought I'd share, I made a pdf of the epub the anon gave us, for easier sharing on /tg/.

>>51299653
In fact, you'd need <5% failure rate to get from 250 to >100,000 in 200 years, at 20 years a cycle.

Personally, I think your cycles are too long. Let's cut it down to 10 years, giving us 20 cycles. That lets us get away with a 63% failure rate and still get to 100,000. That feels more like the way the World Eaters got things done before Boht supercharged their output.

>>51299653
>At 0% failure, you're doubling each cycle.

If 250 marines produce 2 gene-seeds each, that's 500 new Marines, plus the original 250. Then the 500 produces 1000 new Marines, plus the 750 that already exists. Going at this for 10 cycles gave me a total number of 1,023,750 Marines. 90% of that would be 102,375 Marines. 99% of that would be 10,237.5 Marines.

>>51299837
>Still believes you're getting two marines without killing the first one.
Apothecaries had nartheciums even in 30k anon...

>>51299901
>still hasn't provided any evidence that it does kill the Marines

Look, anon, it takes 5 and 10 years for the progenoids to mature. You expect that Marine to sit on their ass and do nothing? They will be in the field, whether a scout or a tactical, they're out there and they might die.

Also, the Narthecium is not the gene-seed extractor, you're thinking of the Reductor, which is just one of the many tools in the apothecary's arsenal.

How does Quartermaster compare to Battlescribe? Any other good list builders?

The geneseed discussion was interesting, but I've had enough.

Tying something new with WE aside from 60 marines footslogging or Terminators in LR do you think post nail WE might be able to have enough camaraderie to side with a group of human freedom fighters from arenas, like space Spartacus represented by IC allies

>>51296599
Here he is getting humped by a solar auxilia + Salamanders list
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK7rmmMSvQA

>>51300020
B-b-but anon Angronius is already space Spartacus!
As to late HH WE with human allies, yeah of course, but camaraderie might be pushing it.

>>51300020
The problem that right after Armatura, Angron asks for a throne and changes from a freedom fighter to a king (of sorts). I don't see him being terribly sympahethic after that. And he's the only one in the legion who really identifies with freedom fighters.

Pre-Armatura (still blue and white), sure. He'd be able to convince Kharn to fight alongside these puny humans. Still expect "collateral damage" once the nails kick in, but they might feel a little bad about it afterward.

>>51300020
Not quite related, but I liked that post Siege story about Dreagher, where he dragged around a human medic with his WE because all the Apothecaries were dead.

Alright lads, can we all sit down and have an honest discussion about the special terminators of each legion?

Thumbing through the books, it's clear that different people (with different concepts of what 'balanced' and 'fluffy' means) made the rules, but the various specializations of Terminator troops is very glaring. Let's start with Iron Hands for instance, and their Gordon Terminators. Hard to tell what they were going for, since a legion that more than most any other would improve the armor, theirs is straight up worse. Is there an alternative take? Some magical use I'm missing?

>>51300769
I dunno, I think their Gordon Terminators are pretty flashy.

>>51298799
Both blood and dark angels have cool upgrade kits that are let down by fuckawful amateurish unhelmeted heads.

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>>51300799
kek

>>51300799

Do they have might hands?
Will they save everyone of us?
Every man?
Every woman?
Every child?
with a mighty flash?

Inferno delayed again? If not wheres the hype videos/rumours?

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Which legion has a culture that is the most Byzantine like?

>>51301210
from most to least?

Ultras
Fists
Bangles
Children
Dangles

>>51301210
Thousand Sons and Iron Hands are really easy to pass that off, probably bits of inspiration in there anyway.

Pre-Heresy Dangels seem like an interesting candidate, as do Emperor's Children.

Anything else just doesn't fit, you either lose the aesthetic or the lore availability.

>>51301240
>Ultras
Figured.
>>51301274
How do the Sons and Hands fit?
>Pre-Heresy Dangles
Explain.

>>51298799
I'm torn between World Eaters and Night Lords, but both of them are pretty good. The WEs parts were designed for the one Crusade-era armour mark that doesn't have a plastic kit yet, though.

>>51299021
>Blackshields
An upgrade pack loaded with modded and jury-rigged Pariah armour parts would be sweet. You could get some completely off-the-rails stuff going that doesn't really fit any of the established marks, which fits perfectly.

>>51301288
To be fair, I know very little about byzantine. I'm just going on aestetics and the fact that it was pretty romey.

>>51301288
The Hands (at least in their 40k incarnation, maybe it's different in 30k) have a very definite Greco/Byzantium vibe, AoD or their separate book iirc had some models that really nailed the look.

The Sons just seemed like cool candidates, a fascination with knowledge and high culture, along with a more near-eastern theme gives a good basis.

Dangels are really more of a personal idea, switching the high gothic art style for Byzantinian art sounds really ducking cool, plus there's a good enough opening in the lore that it can fit,

>>51301131
Last date I heard for it was Feb 4. This week's FW pre-orders should go up in a few hours, so I wouldn't be surprised if a video will be up a day or two later, assuming they're still sticking to that deadline.

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>>51298226
I think each marine produces more than just 2 other marines

>>51298830
Drill that barrel, son

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>>51301375
>AoD or their separate book iirc had some models that really nailed the look.
That's because Neil Roberts paints all marine armour as space medieval knights with byzantine art on them.

>>51301579
>people liking the art with the teeming hordes of space marines

>>51301579
Used to, anyway. Now 98% of his Marines just wear copy-pasted Mk II armour.

>>51298377
Nah the contingent that went to Cadia was not the majority of the chapter, though they lost quite a lot.

What i want to know is what happened to the Great Crusade era smurfs that Tarzyn released from his zoo.

>>51301607

They were actually Alpha Legion. :^)

>>51301370
>pretty romey
It was Rome. Byzantine may either refer to aesthetic or the convoluted back-stabby internal politics. TS fits it politically, i don't about the Hand they seem pretty hierarchical.

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>>51301210

Fists. Look at their shields.

>>51298377
I don't remember the SM Codex retconning their numbers to Codex-approved levels, just downplaying the more deviant aspects of their structure so that they could be folded into the main book.

FWIW, The Beast Arises has them using their decentralised command structure to hide their illegally inflated numbers, like the older fluff, but also includes the 6th ed. retcon that made them legit Imperial Cult adherents.

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>>51301606
But I just love the way he paints the elbows.
Like a Knight, like that Grey Knight Champion pic.

>>51301667
oh shit.

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>>51301678
Again, that's Neil Robert's art.
Find an example of byzantine a e s t h e t i c s that isn't his and we'll see.

>>51300769
How are Gorgons weak.
They are toughness 5 versus shooting, so they effectively have either a 2+ 5+ all the time, or 3++ against stuff that cuts through the armor (5+ invul plus the 5+ FNP), as well as forcing blind tests.
Since they have FNP built in, you don't have to worry about wasting a consul slot on your beat down unit.

>>51301598
This. Sure they had more dudes in the Legions, but not "we literally march in 1,000-man ranks with no cover and hope for the best."

Lads, I've got a 1850 game coming up with my Salamanders being pit against a Tau list. Ive played against this particular player before and I know that he likes to run double Riptides along with two squads of Hazard Suits (with the d3 melta shot rifles) and fire warrior bubble-wrap.

How do I not get BTFO with my Sallies?

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>>51301702
>like that Grey Knight Champion pic
You mean this one?
Also, that Garro pic is just reminding me of how much I dislike the awkward proportions of his model. If Israel Gonzalez is still working for FW, I hope they don't assign him any more Space Marine special characters, since he always gives them weird proportions.

>>51300769
>worse
>FNP and a flashbang, plus a free thunderhammer on the sarge, for 5 points more than a basic terminator
>worse
succ me gayboy, you're a tard

>>51301822
Spartan with all the trimmings.
Also quad mortars. Infantry can't survive that many saves.

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>>51300799
>>51301119
Kek
>>51300769
>>51300769
>Is there an alternative take? Some magical use I'm missing?
Don't they gain Hatred when using the Dead Ferrus RoW?
>>51301828
Yes that one.
Cowteeeeers

Question about Knights-Errant teleporter thingy: what happens if they're in a unit and they deep strike? Can they not deep strike with units? Does it only apply to them?

Thanks.

>>51301822
Dracos all the way, hefty dread that melta bounces off of. Plus with covenant of fire you get extra invulns against plasma and melta for evening with AV, so tanks are survivable and even Boxnoughts get a save

>>51302025
they can be in a unit but I don't think the unit gets the affects of by falsehood cloaked

>>51301831
>>51301769
But they just don't do anything. They're 'okay' against shooting, but while nice the FNP and armor is usually less desirable than just Cataphractii gear- which can be improved (on the sarge) to a 3++, which is pretty nice.

I guess the thing I don't see is that they aren't terribly Killy- honestly I'd take regular squads with volkite/plasma blasters over these guys- since the one unique gun they get is a grab gun which, while kickass, is not doing much in the grand scheme of things. The rest of their CC gear is just standard termie stuff, which aside from the free thinderhammer means shit. I3 means you only want unwieldy stuff, and that means Chainfists are the best gear, and unlike regular termies the sarge can't get one.

Plus I'm not even sure how much better the FNP is over Cataphractii armor. Blind is, in my experience, going to do effectively nill, as other guys are already strike first, and the scary ones (Suzerians!) kill your squad before they even Attack back.

They're not bad per se, just.... useless. I would've liked more from the greatest engineer of the Primarchs, especially when so many other special Terminators (DG, IW, EC, etc) have really cool and unique stuff.

>>51302379
But Gorgons aren't made to fight skilled assault units. You want then to get close, pass saves and Blind a mediocre unit to WS1 and then you pummel them with minor retort (hitting on 3s and enemy on 5s) since they're tough as heck.

>>51302507
I dunno, it's just a lot of shit to bank on failing blind tests and hoping to God they didn't bring Vindicators.

What about other Terminators though, I'm surprised at how well-liked Gorgons are, any others particularly loved?

>>51302582
Salamanders get their hammer shield combo so they are well feared.

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>>51301370
>>51301375
>>51301678
Thanks, guys, have some Orthodox art.

>>51302582

Firedrakes and imperial fist storm shield termies are top tier

Justaerin are pretty good now

Ultramarines termies are a bit over priced I think

Lernaens are good if you were going to buy volkite anyway


2 wound termies are sometimes a trap, especially if they face normal termies with power fists.

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>>51302689
That's why the traitors targeted them first, because their Stormshields of 3++ were feared and respected.
>>51302507
>You want then to get close
Like DAMN close at 6", and it also affects friendly units (can reroll the test), so in a way they are a danger to their own army, meaning a containment transport vehicle is not only recommended but necessary.
>Tough as heck
They are as tough as the regular termie when it comes to the usual termie-killing methods:
Plasma, Medusae and power fists.

Say, the Gorgon's role is to get FnP by being 5pts more expensive than the regular termies, and bully those who can't deal with them in the first place.

But don't you think Justaerin are OP AND overcosted?

>WS5 Stubborn Furious Charge Chosen Warriors that can be retinue
>Now with 2W, and BS5 when they get close
>51pts the first five models, 63 if wielding PFist and Combi-bolter

Also, I don't understand why swaping a power sword for a Lightning claw costs 5pts but resigning to your ranged capabilities for yet another claw costs +10pts and is actually more expensive than buying one of them volkite "demand-surpassed-supply" chargers.

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Newfag to 30k, mostly just paint the models and dont really know where to start with Space Wolves critique my list?

>>51303890
Shit, add in two tac squads I posted wrong image

What's a more interesting a chapter to play?

Dark Angels or Death Guard?

>>51303911
>chapter
You do you know where you are, lad?

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>>51297881
>>No one knows the scope of the Sharks. The Ashen Claws are doing a second Great Crusade in the Ghoul Stars in modern 40k. The could be legion or larger by now.
Not the Ashen Claws. Crysos Morturg's "independent" company is reconquering places for the Imperium, and Decima is there too. They could've been reformed into Death Spectres later on, the implications are there.

>>51303890
all i can tell you is its not good
not anywhere for russ to really go, nor the termies as the achilles only holds 6
you have nogunz as well

>>51304002
"Legion" apologies, it's super early here and rum-hangovers are a bitch.

>>51304113
Like I said, I'm not really sure where to start. I've just thrown everything that I own into a list. I've gotten BoP and have no idea where to go next.

>>51302070

Is there any way to get Dracos into a drop-pod?

>>51298434
Luther managed to shorten that time from 8 to 2 years. Considering the Fallen Angels' prowess, he did quite well.

>>51302903
>>51301726
>>51301678

That style of art isn't necessarily Byzantine anyway, it's just the dominant aesthetic from the dark ages and medieval period. You only think of it as Byzantine because the Byzantine empire didn't develop past it in the way that Western Europe did. In 30/40k terms it's probably most relevant as the art style that's broadly contemporary to gothic architecture.

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>>51298434
Legion Marines get sent into Tac Squads as soon as their implants are done. The reason 40k Tac Marines are significantly more experienced right off the bat is because they go through training during implants, then Scout training, then Devestator training, then Assault training, THEN they're put on a Tac Squad if they don't show proficiency for another field.

Legion Tacticals are flat out grunts. They're not terrible for what they can accomplish, but they're still footsloggers compared to a 40k Tactical Marine.

>>51304330

Read all the responses, it was a discussion of 40k vs. 30k speed.

>>51299330
>I think Death Guard geneseed was difficult to accept...but Barbaran people could survive anthing, so they were a good match.
It's like alchemy. And Mortarion himself was skilled in medicine, he had his basic and advanced training on Barbarus and he advanced it even further studying marine physiology.
My headcannon is that he realised the primarchs and by extension marines had origins partly in the Warp, that's why he held so much loathing for everything.
There's a similar thing in Weregeld with Corax too, and he was also skilled in marine production.

>>51299389
Not enough phosphex weaponry for 490,000 marines.

>>51299478
>>51299494
That's Grabya's Theorem. In cases of some legions, the primarch's gene data was required to stabilise the implants, such as Space Wolves (Canis Helix) and Blood Angels (Red Grail). Possibly Fulgrim's cum too.

>>51299588
>>51299714
Considering it's a Russian site, is it totally safe to use my regular e-mail for registration?

>>51301210
Dark Angels. Multiple (obscure) chains of command, Terran (Romanesque) imperialistic mindset, Calibanite feudalistic independence (late Middle ages influx of feudal lords in the Empire). And of course a mix of various iconographies.
While Ultramarines are a glaring example, they're mostly like 6th century Eastern Roman Empire, with holding on to old heraldry (Agemo), reconquering the lost lands (Five Hundred Worlds) and a single unified command.

>>51303387
>2 wound termies are sometimes a trap, especially if they face normal termies with power fists.
This is true but a dread is even worse for them.

>>51304282
Nah, Byzantine style developed in its own separate way, the difference gets noticeable when Gothic elements are introduced in the West.

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Anyone up for 30k archeogeography?
>The First Pacification of Luna was perhaps the most famous of these early victories for the XVIth Legion, but the breaking of the Coriolis Enclaves and the Five Winter left scars in the collective consciousness of Terran society that persist even now.
>Coriolis Enclaves
Sounds like orbital plates.
>Five Winter
No clue.
>In the Capridian Sinks, it is still common for traders and gamblers to refer to the Legion’s ancient number of sixteen as "the counting of the wolf."
Sounds like a den of pirates, and the most appropriate result I got on google could be suitable:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaprije

>>51301678
>Fuck you this is our ship now

>>51304502

I'd agree, the gothic period is where the two diverge, but I'd definitely say that the 'Byzantine' elements in any 30k art are drawn from an earlier Western tradition, rather than an explicitly Eastern one.

>>51304623
Look up Capri.

Custodes attack skimmer and Contemptor are up on FW. Only hint about Inferno is both items have "...forthcoming book Inferno..." in the description

>>51304803
I kinda want to buy the contemptor to use as a base for a Terran Vet Contemptor.

>>51301559
Don't worry it's drilled now.

>>51296808
None of this relates to being 'vikings' in 'Indo-Europe' (what does that even mean), that's just your headcanon lad.

>>51304803
Inferno confirmed not at the weekender

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does anybody know where this backpack comes from? i've been searching all over and cant find it

The way I get it, Sons of Horus Black Reaving favours a bunch of MSU and other 10-man squads to abuse all the rules. Is that the right assumption?
Example: I have two 10-man TacSquads with extra CCWs on each side of an enemy unit. One FotL's it in the back while the other charges in, then the next turn other charges if required to break it. Is that the right way of thinking about it, in vacuum at least?

>>51305114
We're getting it alright.

>>51305114
Delete this before Lord Blight the Immovable sees it and gets ideas.

>>51301511
Official material says that each marine gets implanted with 2 progenoids, each which grows and produces a new set of 18 implants. And this is the only way for a chapter to get more implants.

>>51305132
The Ghostbusters?

>>51304803
I still think "Legio Custodes" sounds weird. Makes it seem like they're a titan legion or something.

>>51305132
It looks like it's based on Mk3 armour, and that shouldpad implies that it's an Iron Hands model, along with all the extra cables on the backpack, but I can't find it on FWs website.

>>51305432
and the pinterest pictures of the model (from various angles) seem to imply that it's a complete model, but I sure as hell can't find anything else on it. and the urls of the images on pinterest aren't helping either.

>>51305132
It's a custom job. You can see the seams where he's glued the different bits together.

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>>51305132
It's a conversion, but I think the core of it is from the iron hands Mk III tactical set. Look at the the four cables coming out of the backpack in pic related, they match perfectly.

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>>51301889
If you look carefully the house just below the sun, some dude has Aerial reception.
Thinking about, there's traffic lights, so people probably personal transportation of some kind.

>>51305736
Why wouldn't there be any of that? It's one of the Five Hundred Worlds.

>>51304145
I think, think, the drop assault RoW gives him access to one, but I don't have it in front of me to check

>>51304623

>prime white
>paint some black and gunmetal
>call it loyalist wolves

who knew it was that easy to paint Luna Wolves

>>51306418
I recently found about double priming for lighter colours:
>prime black
>prime white
>paint
Will try it as soon as my order arrives, hopefully this Monday.

>>51306444

>prime black
>prime white

why not just prime grey?

>>51306448
Because I want a white undercoat (Imperial Fists). If done properly, it will leave shades on models. Also I'll be using Corax White, I hope the can isn't fucked.

What is the most up to date Army list for Legiones Astartes? Having to cross reference 6 different books to build your army sucks ass.

>>51306469

You have a guide online for reference? I'd like to take a read.

>>51306473

Age of Darkness > Your Chapter's Latest Book > Crusade

>>51306486
Sure, here it is. It doesn't get detailed, but I'm somewhat excited to test it out myself and see how it works.
http://battlebunnies.blogspot.hr/2016/07/legion-praetor-tribune-making-him-yours.html

Inferno in July confirmed

>>51306937
Source fgt.

R8 my 1850 Ultramarines:

Rite of War: Logis Lectora

=== HQ ===

Praetor : Paragon Blade, Mantle of Ultramar +++ 145

Invictarus Suzerain Command Squad +++ 200

Master of Signals +++ 95

=== TROOPS ===

Tactical Squad (10) : Legion Vexilia +++ 135
Rhino +++ 35

Tactical Squad (10) : Legion Vexilia +++ 135
Rhino +++ 35

Tactical Squad (10) : Legion Vexilia +++ 135

=== ELITE ===

Contemptor Dreadnought : Kheres, Extra Armour +++ 195

=== FAST ATTACK ===

Storm Eagle +++ 210

=== HEAVY SUPPORT ===

Heavy Support Squad (5) : 4 Missile Launchers +++ 155

Vindicator Laser Destroyer +++ 130

Land Raider Phobos +++ 225
Got 20 points left, any ideas?

>>51307194
Might as well AC up the phobos, if you have 20 points burning a hole in your pocket.

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>>51306937
Don't lie, Anon.

>>51307194
It never hurts to sprinkle some meltabombs on sergants to deal with pesky vehicles when the chance presents itself

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It's friday, FW is posting new stuff. Custodes dred and custodes speeders. So there is question: Where are my fucking free assault cannons?
And shields!

>>51305431
How do you want to call them, Custodian Corps?
This is a time of legions (even the Cybernetica is a Legio), and they have existed before Space Marines did.
Even before Thunder Warriors, IIRC.

What happened on this thread?

>>51307194
Why are you so stingy on upgrades?
>praetor needs and invuln if he wants a chance against anything more dangerous than a sergeant, digital lasers and melta-bombs are also very useful
>at least give the MoS AA so he doesn't fold instantly
>dozer blades on the rhinos/LR are practically mandatory
>AC on the LR/storm eagle makes them a lot more survivable (unless your meta completely ignores meltas)
>multi-melta and hellstrike or lascannons on the storm eagle makes it actually useful besides transporting what, 10 naked tacticals?
>multi-melta on rhinos turn them from "suicide boxes that you can ignore once the unit has disembarked" to "suicide boxes that will fuck your shit up", even against termies and admech if AC is prevalent
>AA on sergeants is great for soaking wounds, or melta-bombs if you want versatility, or a power axe/fist to discourage people from charging you
>heavy support sergeant has to either pay for a missile launcher or change to nuncio-vox+chainsword, also augury scanner is super good for 5pts to discourage deep striking

Drop one of the contemptor/heavy support/vindicator to make room for upgrades, or bump up to 2k if your playgroup doesn't mind

>>51307560
>Why are you so stingy on upgrades?

What unit should I take out to make room for the upgrades? Also, when I played in back in 4th and 5th throwing points on upgrades usually was worse than running barebones.

>>51306473
Age of Darkness Army List (generic) and Age of Darkness Legions (legion-specific)

>>51304967
I think you've misinterpreted my meaning. I'm not saying the SoH are literally vikings from northwestern India.
The question IIRC was along the lines of what kind of real world cultural background could a SoH player draw on to come up with some cool homebrew stuff; a combination of historical words and images relating to warfare (or whatever) from the Germanic, Indic and Irananian language regions would fit perfectly. The cultural influence behind them as a concept are clearly that plus a couple of grabs from classical sources about Hell and demons.

It's as valid a reading of the visual and textual imagery and information as saying various other legions have hellenic, greco-roman, classical or prussian inspirations behind their real world creations, based on similar textual information.

>>51307592
>What unit should I take out to make room for the upgrades?
Read my post again, last sentence. I'd say the heavy support squad is the most out of place, everything else is a vehicle or inside a vehicle which makes them an obvious target for anti-infantry stuff on turn 1.

>when I played in back in 4th and 5th throwing points on upgrades usually was worse than running barebones
Sorry for being harsh, you should've mentioned you haven't played in a while. There's still the notion of not putting all your eggs in one basket, but certain upgrades bring incredible value for so little points:
Dozer blades reduce your chances of getting immobilized on terrain from 16.66% to 2.77%, and having to dance around terrain with giant vehicles is not something you want to do.
Artificer armour on a sergeant standing in front to soak wounds is a common tactic, just take all the AP3 on him and use look out sir to avoid AP2.
Meltabombs are one of the few things effective against spartans, land raiders and sicarans with armoured ceramite, as well as necessary to give you a fighting chance against contemptors with AV13. Worth it on independent characters, but not necessarily on sergeants if you want to focus on being cheap and shooty.

A praetor is something a lot of people dump points into to make them hit like a truck. At the very least, an invuln save is necessary so that he doesn't die in challenges or to random failed look out sirs. Digital lasers, master-crafted and a lightning claw or power fist (to get +1 attack alongside the paragon blade) is common but optional if you want to stay on the cheap side.
Multi-meltas on rhinos are a bit of a luxury upgrade, but as mentioned, it turns them into an actual threat.
Upgrading the storm eagle is kind of subjective since the upgrades cost a lot, but I personally believe that heavy bolter+tempest rockets are trash and that it's a lot better to kit it out to be anti-tank and use machine spirit to fire the vengeance launcher.

File: 99560108173_CustodesPallasGravTank02.jpg (32KB, 600x620px) Image search: [Google]

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>>51307456
Im just waiting for my resin footsoldiers

Remember to post the PDF novel in the next thread

>>51298799
Chests are great, heads are interesting as alternative Mark 3 heads, but I see no reason to use them to the exclusion of "basic" Mark 3 heads since they don't have sufficient aesthetic superiority to the basic heads to justify it IMO. Maybe for Mark 3 sergeants and special characters, but for me the normal ones are sufficient for basic troops and even veterans. Plus the unhelmeted guy looks stupid.
I am glad FW made shoulder pads for every single armour mark though. That's a nice touch, since Mark 6 Seekers are on my eventual list.