Redpill me on the Jedi, /tg/. Is the light side of the force

>"Redpill me on"

>implying you don't already have an opinion and just want to be told how right you are

>>51250325
Jedi are a lesser version of the Imperium of Man.

Sith a lesser version of Chaos.

Ultimately they're both setting themselves up for self-destruction.

You know what? That is about the worst possible explanation I could possibly have written that's pretty far from the truth.

Eh, the thread will turn into something else entirely thirty posts down.

Did you know the Jedi once took a kid they thought was a disaster orphan back to their pedo-temple for "training" but then the kid's parents turned out to still be alive and they asked the Republic to give their kid back but the Jedi said they weren't finished "training" the kid and that it would be "too dangerous" to send the kid home

Read it on the Holonet.

You know, what always interested me about the Dark Side is, every single dark side user seems compelled to try recruit other force users into falling to the dark side. Every single one!

If you think about it, you wouldn't expect that, would you? Most dark side users are selfish and seek personal power, and see the dark side as a source of great power. Why would they want other people to gain access to the power they themselves have? You're only creating rivals and threats for yourself, and it's not like you're turning them into effective allies/tools for yourself since the typical method of turning someone to the dark side is to make them hate and rage at you. It's not like it's the case that having more dark side users around makes the dark side stronger, either, the individual Sith became stronger after the rule of two was instituted. So why?

It's just speculation, but I think the dark side itself wants people to use it. The Force is a living thing, after all, and guides people's actions - light side users are all about letting the Force take the reigns for them. So, maybe the dark side does the same, in a characteristically twisted form. Perhaps dark side users are subtly compelled to try and turn others to the dark side, as if the dark side were a spiritual virus that twists its hosts' behavior to reproduce itself.

What do you think?

Did you ever hear the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise? It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith so powerful and so wise, he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create...life. He had such a knowledge of the Dark Side, he could even keep the ones he cared about...from dying. He became so powerful, the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power...which, eventually of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew. Then his apprentice killed him in his sleep. Ironic. He could save others from death...but not himself.

>>51250325
their clothes look super comfy

>>51250325
There is literally nothing wrong with being a Sith. Not all rage is bad.

>>51250412
I don't think you can really give them 40k analogues.

>>51250325
I can't not post this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4NZYsHDfrY

>>51250517
Vader is the most obvious exception to this that I can think of, but there are others. He spent every waking moment that he wasn't on task for the Emperor, hunting down and slaying force users across the galaxy. In Legends, he had a couple of apprentices, but even then he used them like tools and then disposed of them before they could pose a credible threat to him. The only force user he was interested in turning to the dark side was Luke, and that was clearly for more personal reasons than just wanting to have an apprentice.

>>51250325
Its a fucking cycle
Watch
The rebuplic will fall in this trillogy

There is no "Light Side" of the Force. There is only the Force and the Dark Side of the Force. The Dark Side is an aberration that is trying to kill the natural order.
It is not a coin, it is a canvas with a pulsating black tumor on it.

The Sith are relentless power-seeking murderers without any merit at all. Name a single Sith who has managed to help anybody in the entire galaxy after falling, and Vader killing Sidious doesn't count.

>>51250517

To some extent, it's true. The Rule of Two was instituted because when there were a lot of Sith around, they killed each other like crazy.
Two Sith are a mostly stable pair, a master who has power, and an apprentice who wants it. The master doles out knowledge and secrets slowly, and the apprentice does his bidding in exchange for continuing tutelage in the dark arts.
But the two are constantly watching for another dark force user. When one appears, things become unstable again. The master will order the apprentice to duel the new sith, hoping to make his apprentice stronger or get a new apprentice, while the apprentice might get ideas about getting the newbie on his side to kill the master and take his remaining secrets for himself, whereupon he become the new master, and the other becomes his apprentice.
So the pair is mostly stable, but always watching for a third to appear. And sometimes picking out someone to be a new third, either because the apprentice is getting antsy about how much the master is holding back and needs to be occupied with something other than killing the master, or because the apprentice wants someone to help him do just that.

File: 1447751342917.jpg (61KB, 758x1055px) Image search: [Google]

61KB, 758x1055px

Honestly, the Jedi Order and the Sith are both pretty stupid..but the Sith more so. The whole Rule of Two is probably the dumbest, silliest, and non-sensical idea ever. I can't even fathom how, no matter how powerful a Sith thinks he is, could believe that 2 could over throw an entire Jedi order and whatever army they would be supporting at the time. The concept that one Sith will always try to overthrow his master again is just dumb. No logical Order of Sith would keep falling into this trap. Once or twice...sure... but do you really expect us to believe that every single Sith apprentice wants to overthrow his Master? If that's the case then the Master would just kill his apprentice. or just not take one. This of course would weaken the Sith "order" even more. Honestly the Jedi (as much as their own silly order is foolish) should have realistically wiped the floor with any Sith Order each and every time.

>>51250693
The Jedi believed the Sith to have become extinct a thousand years ago. The Two Sith exist in the dark, hidden from the galaxy's sight.
All Force users seem driven to take apprentices for whatever reason. The Force doesn't want to be forgotten and manipulates people to continue the cycle.
If a Sith kills their apprentice they take a new apprentice later on.

>>51250325
The Jedi have a pretty shitty PR team, but they really are the good guys of the galaxy. The force is a complicated thing, and in and of itself, is neither good nor evil. That being said, the Dark Side is a very real thing, and is not merely an aggressive application of the force, but a wholly different source for force powers and sensitivity. When one accesses the force normally, the wielder subsumes themself and their ego to it's greater will, at least partially. This is what allows for things like precognition, and mind-tricks. The dark side instead presents itself as both a hunger and the means to sate that hunger. When a force-user reaches for the dark side, they feel only a void, instead of the interconnectedness of all things, and the only thing which begins to fill this void is rage, passion, aggression, and self-obsession.

The best source for understanding the difference between the Light and the Dark is the Heir to the Jedi novel, in the new canon, which explores Luke's first efforts to understand the force and use it for his own ends. Because he isn't really educated in the nuances of the force he has a really interesting reaction to the dark side when he feels it for the first time.

>>51250693
I think the idea is that you (the master) live forever through the Dark Side lich technique, and you just burn through a long series of apprentices, each who thinks they're going to usurp you.

Sometimes they actually do.

>>51250412
The sith are more of a lesser imperium than the Jedi are, both are tyrannical, pro-human, uncaring of regular citizens, and ultimately wanting what's best for everyone.

>>51250753
That was Palpatine's plan, his "rule of one", but the Rule of Two as put forth by Darth Bane was a means of concentrating the knowledge and power of the Sith into as small a number as possible to keep it going, and without diluting it. The idea was that the apprentice could only kill the master when he had learned everything the master had to teach, and any master who was killed by their apprentice was clearly too weak to remain alive. In this way the Sith teachings survived, and only those strongest and cleverest in their use of the dark side could claim the title of Sith Lord.

>>51250751
>The force is a complicated thing
Force apologists are the worst!

>>51250785
>sith
>pro-human
That's the Empire, and that's how I like it.

>>51250517
The Dark Side is an addiction. Addicts like to spread their addiction.

>>51250325
Expanded Universe/Legends/fanfic is absolute trash and should stay in the trash bin.

>>51251106
Well, no, it's made up of hundreds of books, comics, tabletop, vidya, and shows, all of varying degrees of quality.

Remember, only Sith deal in absolutes.

>>51251257
>2+2=4
>hurr only sith deal in absolutes

>>51251313
>2+2=4
Sure, in base 10.

File: OhSnap.gif (494KB, 254x178px) Image search: [Google]

494KB, 254x178px

>>51251326

>>51251106

Okay, lets look at just the movies then. In the Original trilogy it's pretty easy to accept them as the good guys. I mean it helps that there are all of three of them. Ben doesn't really do anything wrong, Yoda does nothing wrong, Luke does good things. in comparison the Emperor tortures people with lightning and Vader chokes out anyone who irritates him. Pretty clear lines there.

If we look at the Prequels however things get a bit more murky. Jedi sit back and let a lot of shady shit happen, or even endorse it when it benefits them. Of course the Sith are still worse comparatively, but the Jedi were far from beacons of purity and champions of justice and morality.

>>51250666
>Name a single Sith who has managed to help anybody in the entire galaxy after falling
Darth Revan

On another note the both sides of the force are natural and must stay in balance this is shown by the Ones, the issue is one side is very ambitious and prone to anger and the other is lazy and self indulgent, both accomplish nothing.

>>51250325
Jedi were utterly ruined by the prequels, and there's no coming back. Fight me.

>>51251743
This is pretty true they went from the knights of old to a bunch of celibate monks who kidnap children and are really bad at their jobs.

>>51251417


There were also a shit ton of them and they got complacent/arrogant. The ones that survived the purges happened to be the ones closest to the ideals of what a jedi should be.

The Jedi were good and noble, and their ideals and methods were mostly sound.

The problem is that they had a critical flaw: they so feared the corrupting and addictive nature of the Dark Side (forever will it dominate your destiny, etc) that they attempted to create a system where it could never exist. They weren't willing to face the risk and the challenge that the Dark Side presented because the cost of failure was too high. This led them to go too far in their dogma. Refusing to train those above a certain age, living in isolation from families and love, demanding detachment while creating filial piety between its members and encouraging compassion for all life, leading to inevitable conflict. All these things created holes that Palapatine was able to exploit.

In Episode I Yoda said that fear was the path to the Dark Side, but the irony was that their past had made the Jedi so fearful of the Dark Side and that they might not resist its temptation that their attempts to remove that temptation only served to open more subtle paths for it that in the end they couldn't defend against because their beliefs had become too rigid. Years later, in Episode V, Yoda had learned his lesson, and encouraged Luke to feel fear at the awesome responsibility and difficulty of his training. The fall of the Jedi taught him and other survivors that the absence of fear was no substitute for the courage to overcome it.

>>51250325
>Redpill me on the Jedi, /tg/.
They good.

>Is the light side of the force really the best side?
Yeah. Dark side turns you into a dumb dick and ultimately consumes you.

>Are the Sith really so bad
Yep.

>or have they been slandered?
Nope.

>>51251828
The jedi also became very blind and sure of themselves like in episode 2 when Dooku tells Obi-wan that Palpatine is a sith lord, his immediate response is that the council would know about it so it can't be true, then in episode 3 they directly say that the dark side surrounds Palpatine and they still can't see the writing on the wall until it was too late.

>>51251828
The biggest flaw that the Jedi have, apart from hubris, is that they never train their people how to deal with negative emotions in a healthy way. Rather they just demand they repress those emotions via strict dogma and ritual without ever having confronted them.

This seems to explain why Jedi snap so catastrophically when they fall, they can't process any of the negative emotions they're experiencing so they totally abandon everything they've been taught and latch onto the exact opposite with equal fanaticism.

My views on the Jed and Sith are honestly weird. The Jedi are mostly individuals I like serving a code I find terrible, while the Sith are mostly individuals I despise following a code I find appealing.

>Obi wan has a waifu
>Perfect Jedi

>Anakin has a waifu
>Lord of the Sith

Explain this.

>>51251990

Obi Wan didn't lose his shit?

>>51251990
Obi-wan let go, Anakin didn't.

>>51251417

The Jedi let "shady shit," like Hutt crime cartels and slavery and whatnot, exist because it is not their place to enforce their will upon others. They are servants who uphold the law at the behest of the Republic. They are Guardians of Peace and Justice, and they do crusade to protect the innocent asking nothing in return, but they are not gods or the supreme arbiters of good and evil in the universe.

The Jedi were not perfect, but they followed their beliefs and were a positive force in the universe in pretty much all cases. They put the lives of others before their own, upheld the laws but were not so bound by them that they wouldn't act to aid others if that law would bind them, and worked toward a peaceful and more stable galaxy, even if that meant that sometimes they had to do nothing and allow evil to continue, so that the greatest possible number of people would at least have a chance at life, liberty and happiness. That's why they took up the leadership role in the Clone Wars: the prosecute the war in the way that would cause the least collateral damage, to protect civilians even at strategic cost, and to place their lives at risk so that others in the Republic might avoid doing so.

Maybe a BIT more murky. But not really.

>>51251990
Obi wan was better at handling his emotions and was honestly not well suited to train someone like Anakin. Anakin had abandonment issues and couldn't get past his upbringing he wasn't ready to deal with anymore loss in his life and the jedi were not helpful in that regard.

What's better: a darth maul beamstaff or dual wielding with one normal sabre and one smaller, offhand sabre?

>>51251990
One of them was an adult about his feelings. The other one was a fucking confused cry-baby that believed force-choking his waifu would protect her.

>>51251990
Obi wan's waifu was far superior.

>>51252083
A blaster.

>>51252083
Why not a beamstaff that seperates into two lightsabres?

>>51252031
>>51251417
My big issue with them is that the Jedi are a pretty clear case of 'protagonist centered morality'. They're myopic, totally convinced that they are right and just, and thus never seem to really question their own beliefs or actions. I'm not trying to bash them, but they seem unwilling to ever really seriously consider if they are actually doing the right thing in any given situation, and are more happy to just assume they are by virtue of being Jedi and thus never have to question their own morality or motivations.

>>51252083
Beamstaff no questions asked. Dual wielding is much harder to coordinate than a staff

File: Ezras_lightsaber.png (360KB, 600x512px) Image search: [Google]

360KB, 600x512px

>>51252108
A blaster saber

>>51252113
Almost as if they're all people and not gods or perfect saints. Not even Yoda or Ben.

>>51252051

he was TOO OLD

They should have captured him until he was 18, then put him out to stud, harvesting his children to raise a super jedi death squad.

>>51252108

If we're talking about KOTOR1, then yeah, dual blaster scoundrel to Jedi, uhh, sentinel, I think it was, was crazy OP. Who needs a lightsaber when you can do ludicrous damage from halfway across the map, at like six shots per turn?

File: kreia.png (578KB, 669x678px) Image search: [Google]

578KB, 669x678px

>>51250325
Both are evil. The only way to be free is to overthrow the force wholly.

File: 1453631868118.gif (2MB, 480x270px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 480x270px

>>51252115
>Dual wielding is much harder to coordinate than a staff
Not if you're a true master Jedi!

>>51252157
Yeah?

I mean that's my point, they're flawed people following a deeply flawed ideology that's doing real damage to their group and stated goals and hampering them from reaching their potential.

>>51252113

One nice thing about Luke, and Asoka for that matter, is that they DO question things when their personal values tell them that The Jedi Way may not be the best way. Older Jedi guide them, address their questions with the party line, but in the end both of them often did things that an "orthodox," Jedi never would have because from their view it was right. They allowed themselves to be shaped by Jedi teachings, but were not so bound by them that they erased their own sense of right and wrong. In the end, they both often found themselves rewarded for following their instincts (and occasionally they both had to pay very dear prices for the same)

In one episode of Clone Wars Yoda said that this type of thing is also why Anakin was such an important and valuable member of the order: he was willing to break rules if he thought it was necessary just as he was willing to stand by those rules if he thought it was for the best. He used his judgement and accepted the consequences of his choices.

Sometimes you need a by-the-book Jedi like a Ki Adi Mundi or a Luminara Unduli who defers to The Book, but sometimes you need someone who's a loose cannon like a Plo Kun or an Qui-Gon Jinn, and sometimes you need somebody smack in the middle like Obi-Wan. Yoda clearly saw value of diversity of view within the Jedi, at least by that point. One might even call it character development from his Episode One persona, where he disapproved of Qui-Gon and Anakin being trained. After more than 10 years of seeing what Qui-Gon's influence on Obi-Wan helped him grow into, and what good Anakin had done with his different way of doing things, Yoda may have changed his entire way of thinking about Jedi philosophy.

Sadly, that change came too late to stop Palpatine from exploiting the order's weaknesses.

>>51252232
You really think that's what she was trying to do? Kreia does nothing but lie and manipulate you throughout the whole game, but sure, she's totally shooting straight about trying to kill the force.

No, Kreia was merely playing the role the force had given her, namely, acting as a foil to make the Exile as strong as she could possibly be. That alone would have been enough, but she also believed that "there must always be a Darth Traya" and for that reason, she wanted the exile to know betrayal. She wanted to be cut down and for the exile to feel her death reverberate through their force-bond, ultimately leading her to take Kreia's place as the Sith Lord of Betrayal.

>>51252232
I always hated that bitch

File: EliteClone1.jpg (56KB, 652x738px) Image search: [Google]

56KB, 652x738px

>>51252308
good post my dude

>>51250693
I had assumed the assumption would be that every generation of Sith would be even more powerful than the previous, eventually the sith would be godlike in power. That might be a fan theory as I don't think Lucas thought it through that far.

Best Jedi acknowledge emotions and knowledge in moderation.
The light side of the force, when understood properly, is an understanding of balance.

The dark side is corruptive, and will fuck you the hell up.
Never go black, you won't come back.

File: Emperor_Palpatine.jpg (1MB, 3583x2869px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 3583x2869px

>>51253470
No, that's pretty much the basis for the Rule of Two. Sidious ended up becoming the strongest Sith Lord in history because he came from a line of progressively more advanced and knowledgeable Sith. He was the culmination of Bane's philosophy to make the Sith stronger through the years.

The Sith evolved and hid in the dark while the Jedi remained stagnant and complacent, and they lost because the Sith outmaneuvered them despite only numbering a few.

File: Darth Vectivus.jpg (276KB, 1040x1201px) Image search: [Google]

276KB, 1040x1201px

>>51250666
Darth Vectivus

>>51250325
Basically a monastic armed order of psychics that's camping out right at the heart of political power. Nobody knows what exactly they do or how they got there and they tend to kill people who oppose them.

These are not the droids you're looking for, btw.

>>51252113
there is an alternate jedi code floating on the internet that doesnt enforce exclusion like the modern code. i heard this was the old code of the jedi. makes you think about what happened to the order

>>51253934
Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet the Force.

>>51253961
yeah, that one.
makes way more sense then the modern code.
the modern one is full of absolutes, heh

>>51253934

One too many wars and tragedies brought about by Jedi who fell to the Dark or Sith resurgences. They decided it was better to totally eliminate the threat of falling. This ended up being their undoing. See >>51251828

>>51253721
Would you look at that face, who wouldn't trust a guy like that?

>>51250325
What is best, anyway?
If you're trying to crush your enemies and hear the lamentations of their women, the Jedi temple holds nothing of value for you.

>>51250325

Sheev did nothing wrong.

>>51254260
>Sheev dindu nuffin
>that was Tarkin
>muh preparing the galaxy

If you turn to the Dark Side, you're doing the Force wrong. Simple as that. The Jedi are not the be all end all of Force users. They have more than their fair share of problems and all their wash outs are indicative of that. The Light Side is the only side, but plenty of people have fucked up trying to get there.

If you want a more tangible concrete answer, just listen to Kel'eth Ur in the Old Republic. He basically explains the Sith are doomed to fail.

IT'S LITERALLY FUCKING DAOISM INTERPRETED BY AN IDIOT, OF COURSE THE LIGHT SIDE IS RIGHT

I heard Darth Sidious survived episode 6, is this true?

It's a lie. Fear is a lie. Passion, a lie. Fears gives only temporary powers, and passion is easily manipulated. Real strength in the Force comes when one is no longer afraid
-Darth Vectivus


Is he our guy

>>51254414
It is in the old canon. The new canon hasn't said yet, but they have confirmed some parts of old canon like Thrawn and some Old Republic Sith.

>>51254414
in legends did, unconfirmed as to whether or not in current canon, likely didn't

>>51254422
https://youtu.be/RQar1NXXMFI

Nigga that's Kel-eth Ur.

>>51254432
New canon? Does that mean the extended universe is invalid now? Is kotor canon?

>>51254451

>Slowpoke.jpg

Extended universe, including motor as far as I know, isn't canon until proven otherwise.

>>51254451
KoToR exists within the old canon. Parts of it exist in the new canon too, but not necessarily all of it. The new and old canon, now called legends, are separated but both still exist. There's even still working being done in Legends canon.

Nothing is "invalid", because it's not like it no longer exists. It's as valid as it ever was, but the main movies aren't going to bother taking the legends stuff into account.

>>51254449
Sith inquisitor is the best story-line. Lightside is the more intriguing of all force users

>>51250412
>Jedi are a lesser version of the Imperium of Man.
>Sith a lesser version of Chaos.
>Lesser

Loser.

>>51254484
I wish that game hadn't been an MMO. All the individual storylines seemed decent and some of the side quests were cool, but it got so bogged down in grinding that I gave it up. Is it worth going back to? I only got to about Belsavis with my Bounty Hunter.

Fuck this light/dark bullshit.
Grey all the way every day.
Both compassion and passion proper are valuable, it is natural to be selfish just as it is natural to be selfless, and one should understand the limits and extremes of both without excluding either from your life. The force isn't just the universal force, it isn't just the living force, it isn't just the light side of the force and it isn't just the dark side of the force. The force is the force, and all that it encompasses are a part of it, and exist for a reason. The dark corrupts, this is true and unavoidable if you intend to explore it, but understanding that the dark does in fact always corrupt and knowing that this corruptive power is a small part of a small part of the greater force at large shows you the paths to steer it, to moderate it and to counter it. The dark is a power, but it will never be the strongest power, only a small piece of the strongest power, and to try and understand the force without it entirely or with it exclusively are both equally misguided.
But please, if you're going to explore the dark, make sure you have allies strong in the light nearby, to help neutralize you should you go too deep.

>>51254499
Its shit. Obsidian should have made Kotor 3. Instead we get Bioware Butchering kotor2 in their novel. and a MMO that couldn't beat Star Wars Galaxies

The Sith are supposed to be like the Nazis, so they're the real good guys
>alderon never happened
>Jedi control the media/government and are all part space-lizard

>>51254521
Damn, oh well. At least we got some half-decent lore out of it. The Kel'eth Ur thing is definitely my favorite. It succinctly explains why the Dark Side is shit in universe.

Why was Star wars the old republic shit? I mean it build up into something great in kotor 2. so how could they have fucked it up?

>>51254555
MMO and Bioware's writing wasn't as good as Obsidian's by a huge margin. The MMO part is the main problem I think.

>>51254562
But to have fucked it up to that extend?

>>51254570
I dunno, I never really thought the problems with it were the story or anything. I thought it was fine but not great. I only have beef with how they actually did the game itself.

>>51250325
The entire fucking point of the prequels, lost amongst the CGI and terrible acting, was that the Jedi had become really fucking bad at what they were meant to do, which is why all the Palpatine/Anakin stuff happened.

So: mystics in tune with life, the universe etc. are good. What amounts to the Republic's standing army, living in a giant castle and opposing all change are bad.

>>51253721
Yeah but then he was undone by his own apprentice while killing him and fucked everything up.

File: Kreiadarknessatcore.jpg (99KB, 980x1436px) Image search: [Google]

99KB, 980x1436px

Step away! She has brought truth, and you condemn it? The arrogance! You will not harm her. You will not harm her ever again.How could you ever hope to know the threat you face, when you have never walked in the dark places of the galaxy—faced war and death on such a scale. If you had traveled far enough, rather than waiting for the echo to reach you, perhaps you would have seen it for what it was. There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side—it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death. Revan knew the power of such places… and the power in making them. They can be used to break the will of others… of Jedi, promising them power, and turning them to the dark side. The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion… culminating in a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from—save one. And this is what I sought to understand. How one could turn away from such power, give up the Force… and still live. But I see what happened now. It is because you were afraid.

What did Kreia mean by this?

>>51254451
Anything that came after RotJ is gone, aside from maybe some characters who they will reuse. Anything from the far past, like KOTOR, is still fine.

The whole point of KOTOR was it was made to be in the same universe but be so far back in time as to not interact with main continuity very much.

>>51254521
The conclusion of the Exile and Revans' stories was so fucking unsatisfying. All that build up just to fucking shit on it to justify a shitty MMO

>>51251956
>is that they never train their people how to deal with negative emotions in a healthy way
Obi-Wan deals with negative emotion just fine.

See: pain, betrayal, agony, disgust, hatred, directed towards Anakin after he fell.

As far as repression and "snapping catastrophically" is concerned, that's honestly really just Anakin. Part of Anakin's issue was his abandonment issues turning into attachment issues, because he left his home at precisely the WRONG age to actually learn anything of merit. Had he been found as an infant by the Order, he likely would have been fine. Had he been found as an adult by the Order and trained, after he'd been able to gain emotional maturity, he'd also probably have been fine.

He landed in the shittiest possible spot, and on top of that he had a Sith Lord whispering in his ear for over a decade.

>>51254777
being space jesus is suffering

>>51254777
I'm more referring to some expanded universe Jedi, can't think of specific examples but I know there are a few. Once they turn to the dark side they seem to jump completely off the deep end into cackling sadism, going from reserved ascetic Jedi to the opposite extreme once their rigid adherence to the code breaks.

>>51253961
For a while now I've wanted to play a character in a Star Wars RPG based on someone who adheres to the Sith code but really isn't a bad person at all, instead is actually a pretty good guy. An adventurer who doesn't see the conflict between moral good and being a hedonistic, passionate warrior. Indulging and enjoying his emotions without letting himself descend into being a selfish, spiteful child.

Somewhat based on how fun it was to play SWTOR as a Sith Warrior but always taking the 'light side' moral choices, a somewhat sinister dark side warrior who is also an honorable defender of his people and gives proper respect to enemy and ally alike.

>>51254974
Then you wouldn't be a Sith. A Sith desires power, not just enjoyment. In fact, those things often run counter to each other. A Sith is defined by being grasping and ambitious.

>>51254990
Of course he desires power, just not grand galactic power. At its core the Sith code is about being free through strength, being the master of your own destiny by right of being powerful enough to write your own story with the tip of a lightsaber.

For him that would take the form of a fast ship, a good and loyal crew, and a galaxy of possibilities to explore and capitalize on. None of which demands he becomes a cackling lunatic or stab people in the back on principle.

I suppose he's not an 'orthodox' Sith but such a thing wouldn't bother him as he would probably see the Sith as having lost their way, taking a code that preaches individual freedom and then building a massive system that robs every Sith within it of that freedom. Where every Sith must constantly fear punishment from those above and usurpation from those below, forging fresh chains instead of breaking them.

File: kreia.png (118KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

118KB, 1920x1080px

>>51254990
>A Sith is defined by being grasping and ambitious.
A sith is define by being a full-pant headed retard on a critical moment for >unlimited Powah.

Face it. The best Dark lords are Darth Revan, Darth Traya (Subjective, but canon states she is a Dark lord of the sith) and Darth Vectivus.

GREY SIDE MASTER RACE FORCE CHOKING AND FORCE LIGHTINGING DROIDS AND STORM TROOPERS, JEDI COUNCIL CAN SUCK MY DIIIIIIIIIIIIICK

File: 1440420567970.jpg (439KB, 1024x731px) Image search: [Google]

439KB, 1024x731px

>>51255029
And Darth Marr

>>51251417
>If we look at the Prequels
Stop bringing your Expanded Universe/Legends/fanfic into Star Wars.

>>51252123
Pity he got later a standard lightsaber.

File: Kyle Katarn.jpg (110KB, 600x705px) Image search: [Google]

110KB, 600x705px

>>51255036
Are Grey Jedi even canon anymore?

Kyle sadly is retconned.

>>51255124
Grey Jedi never made sense to begin with, given the way the Force is supposed to be. There is no in between because it isn't a dichotomy.

>>51255048

God, Darth Marr was awesome.

File: Eternal Marr.jpg (332KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

332KB, 1920x1080px

>>51255132
I miss the big guy

>>51255131

The Jedi and Sith are the 'dichotomy' presupposed by the Grey Jedi; whether or not that's what they think, it's what they are, and has nothing to do with some kind of absolute light or dark aspects of the force.

>>51255168
I guess, but don't ponce around with "Grey", not being part of the two largest organizations doesn't make you a totally different kind of Force user. You are either a Dark Side user or not.

File: 1483765543766.jpg (202KB, 640x480px) Image search: [Google]

202KB, 640x480px

>>51255180
This is why the jedi were purge after the jedi civil war and the clone wars.

>>51255027
>At its core the Sith code is about...

Let me stop you right there. Both of the codes are _philosophies_. They don't describe how things actually are, they describe how the people who employ those codes think about them.

Sith usually go off the deep end without themselves even realizing it. For example, there's a slave-turned-sith whose original goal was to free all the slaves (no, I'm not talking about Anakin), who when confronted with owning slaves now said that freeing them hadn't even occurred to her after becoming a Sith, cause if they deserved freedom they'd just take it anyway.

>>51255264

Whoa, whoa, buddy. Are you telling me that characters describing events, realities and practices in-setting are not omniscient as regards the setting in which they exist?

Stop the presses, bro. Stop the presses.

The Jedi of the pre-Empire Republic were corrupted by the light side as much as the Sith were corrupted by the Dark.

They were so confident of their own moral superiority that they involved themselves in political affairs directly and felt themselves above the law - particularly Mace Windu and his like.

Their willingness to fight against the Separatists - a purely monetary dispute - shows how far they'd fallen into arrogance.

They believed themselves pure and thereby succumbed to weakness.

The only true path was Qui Gonn's and Ahsoka's, bridging the path between light and dark and choosing based on what was right, not what was 'pure from emotion' or 'brought the most power'.

>>51250666
Revan

>>51255348
Except none of that has anything to do with the Light Side.

>>51252312
I think Kreia was straight shooting about that, but she needed the Exile to be as bitter as her, and to take the force as much as she did to accomplish that

Hence the betrayal, and the statement that there must always be a Darth Traya

The Exile would be a sith lord of betrayal whom actually had the ability to harm the force itself.

>>51253961
This is the best Jedi code, because it embraces the contradiction.

>>51255358
Stop moving the goalposts

Reminder that the late Jedi council was blinded by fear, hatred and pride, to the point of being blinded and diminished by it. They were a really shitty example of the way of the Jedi.

>>51255418
I'm just saying that the problem isn't the Light Side. It was the Jedi.

>>51255427
Who's to say there is a Light Side or a Dark Side at all? There's just the Force and how it's used. Feeding hatred into it will bring hatred back, while offering it compassion will bring about compassion.

>>51255384
It doesn't really tell us anything.

"Ignorance, yet knowledge." What?

>>51255348
No such thing as light-side corruption. The Light side is the Force in its neutral state; it's only called the light side to juxtapose it against the Dark Side which is a corruption of the force. The faults of the jedi lie in the structures and dogmas of the jedi order as a religiopolitical organisation. Grey jedi are still strictly "light side"; they're just not as into overexaggerated stoicism as the jedi order is. There is no tight-rope between the light side and the good side, there is a cliff you can walk close by now and when like Mace Windu, but if you try to balance it you'll fall over because nigga it's by the sea and it's windy as fuck.

As for the separatists; it wasn't a monetary dispute, not even when the Trade Federation did a military occupation of Naboo. The separatists were breaking free from the republic by starting a galaxy-wide war orchestrated by Darth Sidious.

>>51255482
>Not understanding that its embracing the contradiction.

>>51255482
The light side and the DARK side*

whew

>>51255501
Repeating it doesn't make it make more sense. It remains a contradiction with no explaination, whether you "embrace" it or not. It strips the code of any true meaning and reduces it to some weird fence-sitting absurdity instead of the centrist philosophy it should be.

>>51255526
>fence-sitting
>centrist

Ah

You're retarded.

>>51255482
What of the Jensaarai? Explicitly non-malevolent explicitly dark-side users whose values center around family bond and noble warrior-groups bound by honor? These are regarded as Grey Jedi, what is your argument for them?

>>51255482
>The Light side is the Force in its neutral state; it's only called the light side to juxtapose it against the Dark Side which is a corruption of the force.
See, this would be cool and all, but I'm fairly sure the Mortis arc of TCW at least throws a massive wrench in that theory, if it doesn't disprove it entirely.
If there was simply the Force and the Dark Side as a corruption of the Force, then there would only be the Father and the Son, instead of the Son and the Daughter with the Father to balance the two.

>>51255564
>the son is the dark

typical

I bet they don't even know that in yin-yang, yang is the light and male energy

fuckin scrubs.

>>51255564
As much as I dislike the mortis arc's writing for the show itself, I do enjoy that they made a point of showing that under proper guidance and care even the darkest of the dark side can do good proper, albeit only for a short while.

>>51255311
I'm saying just because the Sith have a catchy creed about being free and shit doesn't mean they actually become free or can stay free. It's a lie made up so impressionable idiots / those who got disillusioned by the Jedi's strict code would flock to them. It's much more likely that you will be a slave to your passions and fears. Happy-go-lucky "I enjoy fighting and hedonism, but am actually also a nice guy" Sith are basically impossible, unless you mean in a sort of "polite psycho" way.

I mean, I can't tell you what to play, but I'm kinda fed up with all the "Sith... but actually good!" stuff, since it kinda misses the point.

Then again, maybe there are more important points to hit there. Whatever.

>>51255594
I liked that Anakin finally got to do chosen one shit.

>>51255579
Yang is the Darkside though.

>>51255641
>>51255579
not either of you, but I think this nitpicking about yang and the son is unnecessary, as the son is confirmed to represent the darkside in canon, regardless of what yang and the darkside and yang and the son have to do with eachother.

>>51255641
No it isn't. In Taoism, Yang is male, and Yin is female.

>>51255641
Yes, and in Taoism, Yang is the Light and Male energy, and Yin is the Dark and Female energy

>>51255686
it means that they fucked up on basic research

>>51255482
>The faults of the jedi lie in the structures and dogmas of the jedi order as a religiopolitical organisation.

Let's be fair. Without Palpatine in the Senate driving the bureaucratic and political corruption that had clearly been going on for a while before Ep 1, what was the likelihood of it all just falling apart inside of one or two generations at the most? The Republic's structure, the Jedi Order a part of it, had held more or less firm for almost a thousand years at that point. In many ways, the Jedi were arguably what was keeping the Republic from dissolving for all that time, they just weren't prepared to deal with Palpatine.

>>51255735

I must admit, I'd love to see some stories set before episode 1. Showing off the diplomatic role that jedi played.

>>51255704
But it's also action, brashness, and going against the flow. Daoism preaches Dark Virtue, which is closer to the Light Side than the Dark side, despite the connotations of Light and Dark.

>>51255748
There are some EU books/comics that have them. Short stories mostly, but the ones closer to Episode 1 you can already see the rot setting in, I distinctly remember a comic page where the Jedi have just walked away from a meeting with Valorum and remark that the Senate is getting mired in its own quagmire, and a couple wonder if the Senate losing confidence in Valorum is the reason.

>>51255534
Fence-sitting and centrism isn't the same which is also what I said.

>>51255563
I have no idea what they are.

>>51255564
I'm not sure the Father is supposed to represent anything but an unbiased arbiter.

>>51255735
Oh yeah, the Jedi didn't cause any of that shit. They had grown too comfortable and were decieved; that was their big mistake. It wasn't their fault that the republic had become corrupt or that the clone wars started; it was the republic itself and our main man Palpatine.

>>51255773
>literally retarded

>>51255761
>>51255718
again, guys, this is unnecessary
the son is the dark, regardless of how it's supposed to actually be. Modify your arguments to account for this immutable fact of both legends and current canon before you continue, or desist.
>>51255773
>I have no idea what they are
then look them up. Seriously, how hard is that?

>>51255790
>stop shitting on them for absolutely fucking on the simplest bits of a yin-yang convention

Never.

Jedi are dumb and can't decide between being a good organization or a neutral organization.

Imperial Knights were everything Jedi were supposed to be but better, excepting that every author to get their feces-covered hands on them used them as jobbers to push their latest and greatest Darth the Hedgehog Do Not Steal.

>>51255790
>then look them up. Seriously, how hard is that?
I can't account for EU weirdness. If we included all of that we'd be utterly incapable of making any half-decent assumptions about the Force and how it works. It's already difficult enough post-purge with the Harry Potter-esque force magic in Clone Wars.

>>51255796
yes, they fucked up their research, but they've made it so that in both legends and current canon, the son represents the dark side. Because of this, arguments basing male-ness to light as it is represented to ying are not valid, male-ness has been attributed to the yang-counterpart for starwars no matter what continuity you follow, and thus you personally have to adapt, as it will not change.

File: Saber.png (978KB, 1660x830px) Image search: [Google]

978KB, 1660x830px

>>51252312
Except in the Dark Side version of things she calls you her greatest failure.

In the end the game is basically about how arrogant and blind and flat-out xenophobic the Jedi have become. They cast you out of the Order without bothering to learn a single thing about what happened to you or why you did what you did. Later, Kreia--a teacher who had essentially been cast out of the Order for heresy--has grown bitter about the whole Force thing, and then stumbles upon you, a Jedi who has survived a complete disconnect with the Force. Holy shit. You're basically walking proof of a bunch of shit she was trying to teach.

No matter which side of the Force you take, she always questions your decisions because she's a teacher. If you go Light Side, she turns you into a Jedi who's capable of critical thinking and aware of the far-reaching consequences of your actions. This is why she's so fucking furious when the Council decides to cut you off from the Force. Even after all this time, even after the Masters had subjected themselves to Exile, they refuse to learn anything and instead decide to destroy you (and in the process, destroy the greatest weapon they have against Nihilus.) They look at Kreia's literal walking proof of how fucking right she was and decide to get rid of you because they are so god damned afraid of you. So she inflicts on them the same fate that befell you, and they perish rather than try to face life without the Force.

>I merely wished them to see that they and their teachings were wrong.
>She has brought truth, and you condemn it!? The arrogance!
>Let me show you—you, who have forever seen the galaxy through the Force. See it through the eyes of the Exile.
>It is a far greater victory to make another see through your eyes than to close theirs forever.
>There is no great revelation, no great secret. There is only you.
>You are not a Jedi. Not truly. And it is for that, that I love you.

>>51255828
but i wasn't doing any comparisons

I was shitting on them for not doing the research

Stop being a faggot.

Midichlorians are opposed to moral relativism, the absolutist little shits

>>51255839
>>the son is the dark
>typical
>I bet they don't even know that in yin-yang, yang is the light and male energy
>fuckin scrubs.

You seemed to imply that you believed the son was the light by your use of a snide remark to someone else's assumption that the son was dark, which can be confirmed true. Am I incorrect in my reading here?

>>51254562
What can be otherwise expected from biofail? They were to busy stuffing useless romances into the game for every sexuality they have read on tumblr

>>51250325
>is the side with space Shaolin monks with laser swords really the best side
>are the mustache twirling saturday morning cartoon villains really slandered
You could replace every bad guy with Darth Doofenshmirtz and Star Wars would remain the same

>>51255863
...
no

I was shitting on the people who created it, making the son the dark, not doing the base research

For fucks sake you are autistic.

>>51255830
Kreia did nothing wrong

Reminder that Luke was a gray Jedi in Return of the Jedi.

>>51255873
>Could've gotten a game where the Exile and Revan bro-op together to wreck the True Sith
>Instead got EXILE IS MURDERED OFF-SCREEN AND REVAN IS HELD PRISONER FOR A GORILLION YEARS AND THE EMPEROR STEALS HIS LIGHT SIDE and so on and so forth

Kylo Ren is the best dark side user

You literally can't prove me wrong

>>51250666
Darth Marr

>>51255891
Best at jobbing, maybe

>>51255889
>not invasion of force-immune Hellraiser-rejects

>>51255891
>literally loses to someone with zero training who just learned the force exists THAT DAY

what a beast.

>>51255889
>canon exile is ugly as sin and has an awful name

kill me daddy

>>51255920
I'm gonna be honest here Anon that's probably content that was released after I gave up. Jedi Knight storyline was alright but Inquisitor legit made me quit the game in disgust.

File: swtor 2016-04-11 21-46-05-82.jpg (199KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

199KB, 1920x1080px

>>51255830
>>Let me show you—you, who have forever seen the galaxy through the Force. See it through the eyes of the Exile.

Valkorion and Kreia would have been a sweet power couple

>>51255925
You think Bioware was envious?

>>51255940
of old bioware? Maybe.

>>51255940
Obsidian has a talent of making way better games than the devs of the originals and getting shit on for it

New vegas, Kotor2...

I just want to hug them and tell them i love them.

>>51255925
Man the weirdest fucking part is what a little bitch they made Revan into after Obsidian went out of their way to wank him for an entire fucking game.

>>51255881
Aight, upon a couple rereads I can see that now, I was misattributing a tone of disagreement when this was not the case. My bad, there's a lot of argument going on in this thread, and I think I'm seeing fighting where there isn't any.

>>51255823
Actually, if there's anything I've learned, it's that the more points of data the better, so that trends can be observed with greater ease. Go through each grey faction/figure of importance you can find and compare them and their philosophies, so that you can see recurring themes and concepts in the force as understood by many different writers as opposed to a narrow few.

File: 1438839512332.jpg (4KB, 111x122px) Image search: [Google]

4KB, 111x122px

So what's the difference between a dark-side user and a Dark Jedi? Are Dark Jedi basically the same as Grey Jedi, going between light and dark? Or are they Jedi who can use dark-side powers without being corrupted?

>>51255830
I feel bad for Kreia. Everything before she met the exile went poorly for her. All because she had a different philosophy than the norm

>>51255970
Dark Jedi are fallen beyond grey, and are functionally dark-side users that aren't part of the Sith philosophy proper, but are just as bad

>>51251326
Mathematics are absolute even if notation can be variable. It is utterly true that the relationship expressed as 2+2=4 in base 10 remains valid no matter what notation you use.

But really, what the line should be is ''only a Sith deals in moral absolutes''.

I'm not sure why they never pushed the angle that dark side powers were merely the user using too much of the force for one action.

Most light side powers are very understated or comparatively subtle. Healing, morale boosting, suggestion.

Conversely most dark side powers were very gross or blunt. Lightning, choking, command.

I understand that it's mainly a thematic thing and that Brute display of force is pretty much universally recognized as evil, I'm just not sure why it was never really played upon.

>>51255970
Dark Jedi is, generally speaking, a catch-all term for a non-Sith Dark Sider. Grey Jedi still follow the Light Side, there is no "in-between." Qui-Gon Jinn was considered a Grey Jedi.

There are some factions, though, that use the Dark Side of the Force but don't actually know any Jedi arts, such as the Nightsisters, and probably don't technically fall under the umbrella of the term Dark Jedi.

>>51255998
>Qui-Gon Jinn was considered a Grey Jedi.
wouldn't that make luke one as well? they both seem to care more about the force rather than any side of it

>>51255989
while I would like this angle and the themes it could play with, it's just flat inaccurate to how the light/dark split behaves in practice. I'd say push it for games you're playing with friends, but for the more hard discussions with nitpicking on details, that headcanon is just not gonna fly.

>>51256007
Yoda realize qui-gon jinn was right.

>>51256007
By the standards of the Old Order? Absolutely.

the only good grey Jedi is Jolee Bindo cause he's just an old dude who don't give a fuck anymore

>>51256007
I believe that he could be counted as one, but by his time, there was no real organization that could declare him as "grey"

>>51255970
A Dark Jedi is a fallen Jedi. A Jedi who went dark. A Sith is a Sith. A Dark Side user is a Force-sensitive who uses the Dark Side, and this does not mean they are a Sith or a Jedi.

Old EU did describe Dark Jedi as any Dark side user, not necessarily just fallen Jedi, but I don't think that's true in nucanon, or at least I'm not sure if it is.

Basically:

All Dark Jedi and Sith are Dark Side users. Not all Dark Jedi are Sith, not all Sith are Dark Jedi, not all Dark Side users are Dark Jedi or Sith.

Palpatine is a Dark Side user and Sith (Lord). He was never a Dark Jedi, because he was never a Jedi.

Dooku is a Dark Side user, Dark Jedi, and Sith (Lord).

A Nightsister of Dathomir is a Dark Side user, but is neither Dark Jedi nor Sith.

>>51255989
In the EU Luke was able to produce Force lightning purely from the light side. It is apparently much more difficult to do, however, and it's commented on that you need to be exceptionally powerful to pull it off.

Which really fits with the whole "quicker, easier, more seductive" aspect of the dark side, as Yoda said. You get the power faster and more easily, but you also pay a higher price for it.

>>51256018
Qui-Gon's reverence was so weird in the prequels.

He wasn't even a Jedi Master, why would they afford a Knight so much leeway.

>>51256042
>He wasn't even a Jedi Master
Yes he was.

>>51256026
>Jolee Bindo
>cool ass proper grey jedi
>game still relies on a binary light - dark system with grey literally inbetween
Old BioWare was undoubtedly good at their stuff, but they obsession with morality meters was already causing problems.

>>51256042
He was a Jedi Master. He also got results, and while he was a "maverick" he wasn't hugely disrespectful or anything to that extent, he just had his own, slightly odd, way of doing things.

>>51256042

I think the implication was that he had the skills and knowledge to be a Jedi Master but his temperament prevented him from being given the rank. That sort of skill afforded him some leeway that they wouldn't give a jedi who just dicked about without proving he was good enough.

>>51256042
>>51256053
>>51256055
Qui-Gonn was even way less risque than Mace Windu was with his weird vapaad shenanigans. He was unorthodox, but there was absolutely no doubt about his dedication to the Force as it was rather than the dark side.

>>51256052
morality meters were a mistake

>>51256073
Except for kotor 2. Sice it was part of the plot

>>51255889
The only good things to come of TOR were some of the Sith.
Not all of the Sith, or even most of the Sith, just Marr and a few others.

>>51256073
Yes, they were.

Things got even weirder when Obsidian had to include them in KotOR2. I much prefer their use of reputation with various factions to decide what the world sees you as.

>>51250325
The Force is, in a lot of ways, a drug. The human (or humanoid) brain was never intended to suck energy out of the energy field projected by all living things and put it to work. Doing so damages you and can be very addictive. The Jedi are like that functional drug user you know who brings some shit out at parties but you can still trust him to give you a ride to the airport the next day. The Sith are like crackheads living in a bando.

>>51256052

Jolee was less 'Grey' as in Neutral so much as 'Grey' as in 'Not a jedi or sith'. He never said a bad thing about the light side, he just didn't like the order.

>>51256055
He literally achieved the rank of Jedi Master. Obi-Wan does mention, however, that if he'd stop being such a damn rebel for five minutes he'd probably have a seat on the Council but Qui-Gon didn't really give a shit.

Are there any dark-side users who weren't baby-eating monsters?

>>51256097

Ah. I must have messed that up. I thought otherwise. I think I got 'On the council' and 'Master' mixed up with him. My bad.

>>51256104
Darth Vectivus

>>51256076
the only mistake involved with Kotor2 is the publishers fucking Obsidian over.

>>51256104
Revan.

>>51256104
See >>51255048

>>51256104
Anal Kenobi was really pragmatic

>>51256104
darth marr

File: 1484294634315.jpg (97KB, 512x483px) Image search: [Google]

97KB, 512x483px

>>51256104
Wasn't there a sith who was corrupted by the lightside of the force andbdestroyed sith artifacts and lore?

>>51250693
>but do you really expect us to believe that every single Sith apprentice wants to overthrow his Master?
Why not?

>>51256123
From memory, when Lumiya was extolling the virtues of this guy to Jacen in EU, wasn't it for the explicit purpose of getting him to fall to the Dark Side and become a Sith himself, and after Jacen was gone she outright admitted that Vectivus was bullshit and a lie?

Or did they retcon that?

>>51256183
Do you honestly believe that a Sith Master would apprentice someone who has not the ambition or power to eventually kill him?

>>51256163
Probably? It's a dumb idea, though. The Dark Side is supposed to be more seductive, and staying in the light is supposed to require constant agonizing self-discipline and self-denial.

File: 1484656901958.jpg (30KB, 279x360px) Image search: [Google]

30KB, 279x360px

>>51256192
She thought she was bullshiting. But it turns out the story she told and probably heard was legit

>>51256192
Nah, his force ghost later appears to Nelani Dinn

>>51250325
If you consider the good canon/original

Jedi were objectively the bad guys, the sith knew shit was going to get real, and knew that unless the galaxy was united under a single empire it would not be able to stand against the coming threat with out massive losses because everyone would be bickering between themselves.

The sith knew what had to be done and knew it would be labeled the bad guy for doing it because if they exposed what was going to happen they would be called lairs, so they worked in the shadows to slowly unite the people of the Galexy, then the jedi had to go and fuck it all up, but that does not matter anymore because they nuked the old lore and now the sith are just mustache twirly villains.

>>51256209
>>51256207
>literally makes up stories about good Sith
>even creates fake Force ghosts
>turns out she was somehow completely accurate and actual Force ghost of a Sith existed even though Sith cannot become Force ghosts, only shades bound to a place or object

EU writers need to get their shit straight.

>>51256218
He was bound to that asteroid and the holocron he made for himself.

>>51252083
>>51252115

Maul doesn't use anything much like a staff, because every martial art that every teaches anything like fighting with a long stick (long enough for two hands) teaches you how to adjust your grip along the length, which Maul obviously cannot do without slicing his hands off.

This is why Park looks so stupid in Episode I.

>>51256215
Get off 4chan, Sheev. Don't you have spinning to do?

>>51256228
Who?

>>51256228
That's a good trick

>>51256218
He was a different kind of sith. He wasnt the good old edgy as fuck. But rather a intellectual who simply wish to understand. He didn't have the good old hatred for jedi.

>>51256224

I'd have much preferred a single saber end on a long shaft. A glaive rather than a staff.

>>51252232
>Not getting the Atris ending

>>51256228
It's treason then?

>>51256246
>not leaving that dumb bitch atris to go mad in a room full of holocrons.

>>51256243
A saber-spear would be pretty fucking neato

Granted this may be because I think spears offer an awesome range of fighting styles and almost all games have spears feeling fucking awful.

>>51256267
>Not having the opportunity to throw her before Nihilus so that he can devour her

The way I see it "The Sith" (as opposed to any one specific Sith) are evil, because whilst their core philosophy isn't explicitly evil (seems more chaotic, to use D&D parlance, all the focus is on personal freedom), centuries of tradition and scholarly interpretation of the code definitely are evil.

So any one Sith can cherry pick from the philosophy and be a decent, highly individualist person, who embraces passion as a means to achieve good goals. But that doesn't make the Sith as a whole a religion of peace.

The problem with that is basically all canon sources say that the power of the dark side is addictive and corrupting and makes you a power-hungry shithead, so if you try to be a nice Sith you're doomed by canon, gg no re.

>>51256218
He wasn't good, just intelligently selfish. He saw that it didn't benefit him to participate in a millennia-long feud with people he didn't even know and had no good reason to hate. So instead he studied the Force and made a ton of money.

>>51256277
>tfw you can't make Visas stab herself to kill Nihilus via their link

>>51256282
Greatest Sith.

>>51256278
>Their interpretation of the code is evil
So says the jedi.

>>51256273
The newer TORtanic expansions have spear-saber dealies, often paired with some kind of shield. Honestly probably the only good thing to come out of them besides Darth Marr being great.

>>51256308
any connection to Visas marr?

>>51254737
>What did Kreia mean by this?

Depends on whether you think that Kreia was ultimately the master or the student.

At times she very much wanted to be both.

>>51256278
> because whilst their core philosophy isn't explicitly evil
No, it's simply wrong, as in it is incorrect. The Sith aren't just about individualism. The core tenant of the Sith Code is that your passions will give you power and thus set you free. But the entire idea that using your passions to manipulate the force will set you free is wrong. Injecting your emotions into the force in order to get a boost turns the power that it gives you into an addictive drug, which is the opposite of freedom. It becomes a compulsion, and like a drug addict your primary relationship becomes your relationship with the drug, everything else is secondary.

The reason the Sith become self-centered assholes who do terrible things in the name of their own wealth and power is because addictions make you stop caring about other things. You aren't free, you become a slave to the high that the dark side gives you.

File: swtor 2016-05-14 14-28-40-77.jpg (238KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

238KB, 1920x1080px

>>51256312
Just a shared name

>>51256312
No, Darth Marr is a masked, armoured black guy built like a gpddamned tank who tempers his Dark Side powers with ironclad self-control, loyalty to the Sith Empire as an institution and an ideal, a sense of respect towards worthy allies and enemies and a healthy amount of burning hatred and contempt towards fucking traitor shits.

>>51256278
> who embraces passion as a means to achieve good goals.
Emotions evolved specifically to override things like longer term goals or abstract thinking. They're a swift kick in your mental butt that compels you to do things that in the wild were vital for your immediate survival and reproduction. The goals that you might have in a post-agricultural-revolution society are the exact sort of thing that emotions are strongest against.

What is the most based way to wield a lightsaber and why is it one-handed with your left hand being freed up for force powers and pimp slaps?

Someone link that Vader webm from Rogue One.

>>51256376
Did someone say pimp slaps?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sjI037MxOY

>>51256387
That's a mighty pimp hand on Darth Marr.

>>51252123
Is Rebels any good?

>>51256394
Very good, yes.
Not so much at first, but just like TCW it's been getting progressively better.

File: Scholar_of_Sins.jpg (64KB, 624x907px) Image search: [Google]

64KB, 624x907px

>>51250325
Jedi = retard space monks who delve so far into pragmatism, that they actively hinder themselves and their goals.

Sith = retard space nazis that actually have a decent argument against the Jedi, but bury it under so much angst and psychopathic behavior that they end up just murdering themselves to extinction.

Grey Jedi = Based space monk who sees the bigger picture, but still do everything in their power to continue to be fucking retarded.

>>51256387
Marrchie slap him, send him back to Korriban

>>51256401
This nigga got it.

>>51256401
Grey Jedi = Basically not a thing, at the end of the day almost all of the good examples are just Jedi.

>>51256376
> one-handed
Good stuff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcXaicGvcvA

>>51256400
Great, I'll start watching it soon then. It looked interesting and I keep seeing it come up.

I should probably go back and watch The Clone Wars as well, I never saw the last season or two.

>>51256467
>so badass he does the walk off a ledge and onto a ship thing *twice*
Dooku was so based in TCW.

>>51256218
Its called force phantoms

>>51251257
>all of varying degrees of utter shittiness
ftfy

>Remember, only Sith deal in absolutes.
Out of all the shitty lines that came out of the prequel trilogy, that one is definetly the dumbest.

>>51250325
Some Jedi are cool.
Literally all Sith are backstabbing, treacherous, lying cunts.

I think that's about all I can tell you.

>>51250581
They're meant to farm moist

>>51250325

Looking at the Sith Code itself, the Sith aren't bad. Their mantras talk about gaining strength to be free, while the Jedi Code wants you to be a veg and deny your humanity/emotions.

Granted, the Sith become backstabbing drow in order to gain power, but their core beliefs aren't bad. Ideologically, I'd rather be a Sith but I wouldn't survive in their academies.

Look up Dark Jedi and Gray Jedi. I think they're much more interesting, realistic, and gray aligned. Dark Jedi are dark side users who do what they want with the Force, but don't want to conquer the galaxy and exterminate the Jedi like the Sith do. Gray Jedi are jaded members of the Order who leave it, and don't feel bad using dark side Force powers every now and then.

Of course Dark and Gray Jedi will never be in any of the films ever because GOOD VERSUS EVIIIIIIIIILLLL.

>>51250693
Rule of two was created one the jedi thought ALL sith had been destroyed, it's basically "lay low and gather power before revealing yourself" kind of rule. The master has only one apprentice so he can control him and avoid some of your randumevil cunts to go there and fuck up your entire plan.

>>51252031
I mean, the very concept of cloning people and giving life and sentience to a thing only to send it off to war to watch its brothers in arms get killed for a government that will never give them basic human rights is kinda morally questionable but once the war was in swing the jedi didn't seem too bothered by that whole deal.

>>51256871
At that point, what can you do?
Send them back?

>>51256871
To be fair, they only learned about the army when it was already ready for combat and the war was beginning.
Who would turn down free troops in a situation like that?

>>51256871
The army wasn't the jedis, it was the republics (Sidious').

>>51250693

>Honestly the Jedi (as much as their own silly order is foolish) should have realistically wiped the floor with any Sith Order each and every time.

In the fullness of time? That's.... pretty much what always happens.

>>51250669
Dark Force User != Sith

>>51256871
Part of the entire point of Sidious' plan was forcing the Jedi into the position of commanders and soldiers, which they explicitly weren't before then even though yes, they had a knack for it. They were bothered by it, Yoda at the end of Ep 2 is pretty clearly unhappy with the idea, but they didn't have a choice: defend the Republic as they were sworn to do, or sit on their asses and pontificate while the galaxy ignites in a massive war ANYWAY.

So they fought. Which split the Order up, divided them, spread them far across the galaxy, whittled down their numbers over the course of a long war. Then Order 66 was the killing blow.

Even in Legends where dozens of Jedi survived (something like ~60 named characters), counting down from the original number of roughly 10 thousand, the Order at its height, Sidious successfully wiped out OVER 99% of the Jedi.

He had a higher success rate than any Sith ever.

>>51256945
Depends how you count it. They go back and forth forever, so each side always wins and each side always loses.

>>51250556
The prequels and extended universe makes no sense. Wasn't Plagueis technically alive when Sheev said that? And Sheev was well aware of that fact.

Or he killed him right before.

Either way it makes no sense to name it a 'Sith' legend.

>>51257136
>Palpatine
>being honest
Pick one.

>>51257136
I believe Palpatine killed him just before the start of the film, at least in Legacy timeline.

As for calling it a Sith legend, he could hardly say "did you hear about Darth Plagueis' recent death? What do you mean, how do I know about it?"

>>51255048
>>51255132
>>51255893

Marr was the best of the Sith. Vicious, but honorable, his only passion the prosperity of the Empire. He turned what is normally a Sith's greatest vulnerability, into the strength of an entire nation.

>>51257159
But the prequels are just filled with people lying for no reason. They are constantly lying with no motive.

The entire prequels made Obi-Wans talk with Luke in the beginning of Episode IV a huge and long lie too, and I'm not talking about the "Vader killed your father" he's lying about small details that doesn't matter at all.

>>51257180
If he wanted to tempt Anakin with it he could've said that he knew him before he passed away and got lots of knowledge from him.

>>51255936
That they would have.

I killed that dude with a gun named "Flashy"

>>51251827
So the Sith are a control method used by the Force to induce an 'imbalance' and reset the order?

>>51256847
Their core beliefs aren't bad, but unfortunately the Dark Side corrupts and twists a person's emotions, so most commonly those that follow their beliefs end up as edgy parodies of their former selves.

>>51257235
Might be interesting to see it discussed. Could be like a controlled fire to burn away what isn't healthy. Just gotta be careful not to let it rage out of control (pun intended).

>>51257206
>If he wanted to tempt Anakin with it he could've said that he knew him before he passed away and got lots of knowledge from him.

At that point in the film, he was supposed to still just be a knowledgable friend to Anakin, not a full-on Sith master. If he said he'd known him, that would have put way too much Jedi heat on him.

All he really needed to say was "there is a way to prevent death, and it's Sith-based" to set Anakin on the path. Didn't need to involve himself at all.

>>51257206
Palpatine has a perfectly good reason to lie to Anakin. He's laying the groundwork for turning him away from the Jedi and to the Sith. Well, less groundwork and more "actual plan" at that point. Anakin is worried that Padme will die. So Palpatine has a story about a Sith Lord who could supposedly prevent people from dying with the Force, and "no Jedi" could teach Anakin that power. He even says that the Sith in question taught his apprentice everything he knew, implying that the power was out there and known.

>>51257194
Marr is a walking, talking treatise on how to write a Sith that isn't a complete cunt.
If even an appreciable fraction of Sith had the same code and self-control as Marr then the Sith would have obliterated the Jedi with ease.

Marr>Bane, imo.

>>51257261
>>51257264
Oh yeah, you're right. I was confusing when he said it.

>>51250325
Going by the original trilogy, there wasn't so much of a Sith ideology. There were Jedi, who were a mystic order with trappings of self-denial and an almost Calvinist approach to the future, and who seemed to draw their power mostly from going along with where the universe was already headed. And then there were some assholes who saw what power could do and decided to be wizard dictators instead. Mystics who were all about personal betterment and hanging back responded with the predictable mix of condescending pity (it's easy/they're weak) and anxiety over what this meant for them and the stream they were moving in.

OT also has some subtext and thematic parallelism. Vader and Emp vs Obi-wan and Yoda as master and apprentice pairs have a lot in common, but also characterize their respective sides. Yoda and the Emperor act a lot less like rational human beings than their apprentices do. Yoda's self-denial and removal of himself from events is as extreme and almost as misguided as the Emperor's maximum meddling in absolutely everything for personal gain. Their apprentices act more like flawed people. Obi-wan may be moving with the stream, but because of where he's placed himself this has him calmly dismembering strangers, lying to his new protege, laying down his arms so that his friends escape. He's meddling in the outcome of events for personal reasons the whole way through. Vader may be a ball of angst and need, but his passive acceptance of authority and the way that a lot of what he's after is the respect of his peers (his kids, his boss, fucking Piett) complicates his character. Rather than redirecting the stream of fate itself, like his boss, he's just moving with the new stream his boss is generating. If that makes any sense.

>>51251858
/thread

>>51257265
Absolutely, I agree. Marr, and to an extent Vowrawn (though he had much less screen time and was rather odd), made me go "Alright, I can absolutely get behind this idea." He was certainly not kind or gentle, but he didn't need to be, and nor should he have been.

Marr > Malgus as well. I don't understand how he has such a huge fanbase given how much of a useless moron he proved to be.

Daily reminder that the Dark Side is the natural state of the Force, when literally everything pulls you to it you have to wonder if it isn't the natural path.

>>51256394
It's a lot of fanfap if you watched the cgi clones.

spoilers ahead for that fact
characters that appear; rex, asuka, darthmaul MINSC the space thief
buncha other nods and winks.
I watched through the battle-droid and mandalorian episodes and i was screaming at them for some conventional writing.
like
everyone some how forgetting the republic is dead and not trying to explain to the supertactical droid that they also fought what the empire was until after they destroyed most of the droid army
and then
the droid fucking off because we cannot win this fight in all likelyhood to maintain the status quo or something (i rescind this if a battle droid army shows up under his control later in the show as an ally) also the droid slapstick was a bit cruel even for those clankers
and finally.
has a chance to kill the viceroy, he's all but defenseless and they could have just shot him with ship cannons instead of leaving him there to "die" but really get saved and brought back as a recurring villian (also rescinded if he doesn't ever show up again and is confirmed MIA, horrible way to die btw, ship wrecked with 0-2 of your squad at most)

>>51257316
Really, the idea of Imperial Sith that put the continued preservation of the Empire above their own short-sighted ambitions (that will inevitably fall prey to the machinations of other sith or the intervention of outside forces like the massive fuckoff republic and jedi order that are trying to wipe them the fuck out) is probably the best thing to come from SWTOR.
Marr epitomizes that.

I suppose fans like Malgus because he had the same kind of goal? (To preserve and improve the Empire.) He just went about it in a shitty way. Honestly I think Malgus just went off the deep end around when he killed his waifu.

>>51257451
fuck i canèt believe i fucked up my spoilers that bad.
i need to fucking go back to sleep.

>>51257451
>asuka
Imperial Evangelions confirmed.
Force-sensitives rendered obsolete.

>>51257455
That's a fair point. He killed his waifu, then got to the other end of the checkerboard, put Vitiate's dead body on his head, and crowned himself King of All Sith and it was just downhill from there.

Also, don't know if you've had any experience with her, but Empress Acina is 100% bro tier.

>stranded in the wilderness with her
>take flirt option because why not
>"You know, if all you wanted was to get me alone, all you had to do was ask."
>"Yes, though normally I plan my shuttle crashes in a more romantic environment."
>Acina is amused.

>>51256847
See >>51256340
Their code sounds nice, but is ultimately based on an incorrect belief regarding the nature of the Force.

>>51256202
Kylo Ren has to fight his feelings of love and shit to remain dark side

>>51255124
I love the games, but let's be honest: Kyle isn't much of a character.

>>51257526
The Sith were generally the best part of SWTOR.
Even the shitty ones like Baras were entertaining in some way, and when you get to the better ones you have shit like Lana being casual to the point of not bothering with titles and Sith names, Jadus teleporting around and force-choking bitches while invisible and Marr being Marr.

I honestly can't think of a single Jedi or Republic character I found particularly interesting.

>>51257637
Well I can understand that.

He's here to look awesome, but with some further character development...

>>51257649
Agreed, base game had so much promise and such great Imperial characters. I wish they'd hung onto the Cold War aesthetic for longer rather than chasing escalation after escalation.

>>51250325
Extended canon for whatever it's worth makes a distinction between Jedi and Sith as a egoism <> altruism dichotomy.

Jedi must exercise logic, reason and restraint to achieve the enlightenment necessary to uphold a society of order and regulation. This is also why they can exist as an order and act as a form of galactic police force for the "democratic" senate.

Sith are taught to indulge in their emotions and harness their inherent passion to reach the enlightenment necessary to achieve their own goals and surpass others. That is why Sith cannot into ordered society because everybody constantly backstabbing and warring eachother does not allow much administration, and why it's so important for Sith to lure other force users to the dark side as it proves that nobody is above their basest desires.

The former are easier to make into the good guys because their ideals of order and community are more in line with the values of our society, whereas the latter can more easily be made into the bad guys because people being primarily out for their own gain are inevitably going to step on the well-being of their peers at some point.

Both forces have undoubtedly extensions that can be utilised as "villainous" in the face of objective morality, however Sith can more often be considered the assholes because recklessness and not moderating themselves is a core value of their spiritual scripture, while jedi can still have a discourse.

>>51257649
I gotta give Jadus's voice actor props for adding an additional level of awesome to his character- that cold, almost inhumanly calm voice was perfect.

The only Republic characters I found interesting were from the Smuggler. Akavi, because exploring the whole exiled Mandalorian thing was kind of cool, and Guss, because he's a goofy bitch.

File: bizheavymetal.jpg (147KB, 600x806px) Image search: [Google]

147KB, 600x806px

>>51255212
>>51255180
Bullshit. You are wrong. Want to know how I know?

>Light or Dark side
>choose

The decision not to choose between either is a choice itself, and thus creates a third outcome.

Get fucked, mr absolutes-man

>>51256401
>Grey Jedi
Either morons who walk a tightrope of idiocy or just a Jedi but you happen to like the cut of their jib.

>>51250325
You're a retard and this thread is full of retards.

I hope you all get syphilis without ever having sex.

Unless you happen to share the same opinions as me.

File: $2100.png (43KB, 200x260px) Image search: [Google]

43KB, 200x260px

>>51257649
>Baras' rants
>pretty much everything the imperial agent did
>Zash master/apprentice lesbian simulator

Swtor could have been top 2 mmo

>>51257819
The first step is removing playable Republic.
Make the entire game Imperial-only, where the only alignments are Lawful Asshole, Chaotic Asshole and Pragmatic Evil.

File: IMG_1014.jpg (50KB, 550x550px) Image search: [Google]

50KB, 550x550px

>>51257819
>what might have been

Sad reacts only

>>51257600
Which is dumb, and JJ doesn't understand the Force. Kylo's supposed to be on the quick and easy path. When you wake up in a pool of your own vomit in a crackhouse, maybe you think about turning your life around and getting a degree, but it's not EASY. You don't have to try hard to NOT do that.

>>51252113

This is very much a Hollywood problem. The Jedi are non-interventionist and that's an absolute bedrock principle... except when it's a moral imperative that they intervene and THAT becomes the absolute bedrock principle. It's like the Federation and the Prime Directive. There's no moral consistency beyond whatever a writer has scripted a Jedi to say, and no code other than what sounds like a good idea in a given context (or for the writer, when he has a particular axe to grind).

"only a sith deals in absolutes" <-- Contradicts both itself and what we see of the Jedi, who treasures a long list of absolutes.

Philosophically, it's very california. New Age rituals and spirituality, married to watered-down and misinterpreted buddhist philosophy, but borrowing a heavy dose of manichean good-versus-evil absolutism.

So the problem isn't that Jedi are wrong or right, or that sith are wrong or right. It's that the whole setting isn't consistent enough or philosophically well-baked enough that you're equipped to judge them even on their own terms. In terms of behavior, sure, the Sith are evil and the Jedi are good. Put them on a ballot and I'll vote Jedi, but even 40k thinks through the philosophical implications of their ideas more than Star Wars,a nd that's saying something.

>>51257600
>Kylo Ren has to fight his feelings of love and shit to remain dark side

what

literally what

It's the Jedi who aren't allowed to love. Sith are allowed to do whatever the fuck they want.

>>51255348
Except that they strongly suspected Dark siders were behind the Separatist movement and had a sworn oath to protect the Galactic republic as guardians of peace and order in the galaxy.

>>51250669
>>51250693
What happens if a master and apprentice are deeply in love?

>>51258003
Okay, so they're guardians of peace. Let's proceed from that assumption. Which would be the better thing to do to guard the peace?

>advocate for a peaceful solution for the Separatists, who want nothing more than to be free and govern themselves. Even if diplomatic talks break down, the Republic has no military except you and the clones you bought for them. You can side with the Separatists and give them the clones instead. That way the Republic has no choice but to submit to the Separatists' demands.

or

>tell the Republic that there's a clone army and also fight for the Republic, therefore making the two sides evenly matched and guaranteeing a long and destructive war

>>51258099
Murderfucking.

>>51257962
OT is more consistent if you go character by character. Yoda is drastically non-interventionist and self-denying. Emp is a monster of self-indulgence and fucking with everyone everywhere. Vader and Ben are humans following their ideals but prone to human error (Vader's self-effacement under his master, Ben's casual manipulation and violence).

Luke is kind of a fuck up who fails to understand an ancient mystic faith garbled by time, distance, and flawed human teachers. You get the real feeling his natural inclination is towards the dark side. He lights his saber first, fights better enraged, when he knows where things are going he can't help but intervene. Even if this is shown to be a weakness prone to backfiring. His whole arc starts with his seeking adventure, peaks with his finding it, and finishes with a degree of disillusionment over what it's cost him and will continue to cost him for as long as he keeps this shit up.

>>51258099
Jedi Shadows spy on them and out them.

>>51258115
>who want nothing more than to be free and govern themselves
Literally manipulated into rebellion by the Sith, even if some of them started out with decent intentions. They're the ones that made the republic senate as corrupt as it was alongside Palpatine and his machinations.

>Even if diplomatic talks break down, the Republic has no military except you and the clones you bought for them.
The clones Palpatine manipulated a jedi into ordering for him (without consulting any other jedi) then paid for himself. An army the jedi never had control of.

>You can side with the Separatists and give them the clones instead. That way the Republic has no choice but to submit to the Separatists' demands.
To protect the republic they have to end it? Yeah, that makes no sense.

>>51258198
>Literally manipulated into rebellion by the Sith, even if some of them started out with decent intentions
Of course they were, but they have wants of their own. They don't just live to serve the Sith - all but those two badly-dubbed guys have no idea they're even working for a Sith. A clever Jedi could turn them around and make them no longer useful to the Sith.

>The clones Palpatine manipulated a jedi into ordering for him (without consulting any other jedi) then paid for himself. An army the jedi never had control of.
You mean the illegal army that was ordered in secret and paid for in cash. When Obi-wan found out about that operation, he easily could have manipulated either side into bombing Kamino from orbit. Or, if he didn't want to kill anyone, explain that because this was all bought with dirty money, he's seizing control of the facility and setting all the clones free.

>To protect the republic they have to end it? Yeah, that makes no sense.
Get it straight, son. Their duty is to protect the peace, not to protect the Republic.

>>51258115
>who want nothing more than to be free and govern themselves
>One of the leading members is Nute Gunray, the shadiest motherfucker who leads the shadiest motherfucking faction ever
>Implying they don't intend to force terrible punitive treaties on the Core
>Implying that galactic Balkanization was ever a path to peace a stability

>>51258276
>he easily could have manipulated either side into bombing Kamino from orbit
Not that guy, but you do realise Obi-wan is a Jedi, right?
He'd feel that genocide.

>>51258276
>he easily could have manipulated either side into bombing Kamino from orbit
Ah yes the galaxies largest concentration of military force would have just rolled over no doubt, on a side not this was always my biggest gripe with the prequels why don't the Kaminoans rule the galaxy? They crap out a fully formed military for the republic, presumably without trading with anyone since they weren't on anyone's records and then just sell it? How did the fucks not just make an empires centuries ago they're clearly without peer.The clones are the biggest plot hole in Star Wars.

Anyway,
>Get it straight, son. Their duty is to protect the peace, not to protect the Republic.
You know if you no nothing about a setting the polite thing would be to not get into arguments about it.

>>51258369
The clones had no equipment and no ships. The planet didn't have any space-based defenses that we can see, maybe because it would compromise their secrecy.

>>51258287
>a single all-powerful galactic state is perfectly safe arrangement. Why, it's too big to fail!

File: ARC_LAAT.jpg (121KB, 851x478px) Image search: [Google]

121KB, 851x478px

>>51258538
>The clones had no equipment and no ships

>>51258276
>A clever Jedi could turn them around and make them no longer useful to the Sith.
What an arsepull. Palpatine's been working on the whole scheme for ages. A clever jedi couldn't do shit against the separatists as a whole.
>When Obi-wan found out about that operation, he easily could have manipulated either side into bombing Kamino from orbit.
The illegal army was ordered in secret and paid for by Palpatine. Obi-Wan was in no place to do anything about it, not that he'd ever order a fucking genocide.
>Get it straight, son. Their duty is to protect the peace, not to protect the Republic.
No, they're the sworn protectors of THE REPUBLIC and have been for literal ages.

>>51258574
While they were being decanted they had no equipment. The Republic paid to outfit them after they found out about them.

>>51258605
>find out about clones
>obi-wan immediately gets kidnapped
>field and equip a whole galactic army in less than a week to go rescue him and fuck over the seps
Yeah, nah.

>>51258650
I'm assuming that Obi-wan got kidnapped in the animated movie? That was after Episode 2, and Episode 2 covers the long period of time between when everyone learns about the clones and when they all get mobilized and loaded onto ships.

>>51258598
So the Republic and its elected government have never done anything before that the Jedi objected to? That sounds implausible, considering that Jedi object to almost everything.

Suppose the Jedi renege on their oath. What happens? Maybe they have to find a new headquarters, but that's pretty much it. And that could easily be for the greater good. This isn't the Silmarillion or something.

>>51258564
Well for almost a thousands years yes it was.

Unlike the Balkans.

>>51258736
>Maybe they have to find a new headquarters, but that's pretty much it.

I don't think you know much about Star Wars or the practicalities of anything for that matter.

>>51259040
Now who doesn't know anything about Star Wars? The galaxy has been fighting the same war over and over again for their entire recorded history.

File: GYZ8E96.jpg (40KB, 850x560px) Image search: [Google]

40KB, 850x560px

>>51259095
An order of ascetic monks with almost no material needs does not need a government sugardaddy, especially when they can use their powers to predict market forces or cheat at gambling.

>>51259165
And for almost a thousand years the Galactic Republic brought peace, you chucklefuck.

>>51256202
The problem was that Gravid thought that Bane's idea about the force was incomplete and that the new Order should start with knowledge of both Jedi and Sith. Which sounds good, until he began destroying holocrons and shit en masse, so that his apprentice had to destroy him to avoid further damage to their order

>>51259329
Because Bane and the Sith went undercover so that they could bring down the Republic from within.
Which they did.

>>51259401
I'm not really sure how that's a response.

>>51259194
I'm really more bothered by your idea of one infraction leading to them packing up their temple and order which is totally no effort guys and will burn not bridges and your implication that the Seps are somehow morally pure then.

>>51259438
thousand years of peace because the main aggressor decides to go undercover

>>51259571
Being immune to the perditions of evil men is not a pre-requite for something being the best option.

I really feel I must say it again, almost a thousand years of peace. How can you possibly argue this is not the best record. Bane's not controlling every other shitty thing to ever happen, The Republic is better than Balkanisation which is the argument.

>>51258115

Keep in mind what Lucas was trying to do. An illegitimate Chancellor rules one of two sides who really could have lived in peace but somehow ended up escalating into total war. A massive military machine mysteriously appears that made war possible and negotiations not strictly necessary.The secretly evil Chancellor used this war as a pretext to undo treasured political traditions and eventually take over the Republic from the inside.

Now, the obvious parallel to this is the Iraq war (which in 2002 was already being discussed). Many on the Left felt that Bush was a secret fascist who was planning to overthrow democracy, and illegitimate as a President in the first place. The fascist part sounds silly now but at the time people in George Lucas's circles took this very seriously.

But the better parallel was the formative experience of Lucas's political life: Vietnam. There too you had a dubious President (LBJ, who took over after the JFK assassination) who'd let America be drawn into a dubious war, one that for the boomers didn't seem to be a war we were fighting for any discernible reason. Then comes Nixon, a corrupt illegitimate warmonger who's probably a secret fascist seeking to overthrow democracy.

If you're going to look at the politics of SW:TCW, you have to see what Lucas was trying to say. The Separatists were Bad Guys, really bad, but ultimately no real threat. The Jedi were good guys forced into a moral dilemma which would have doomed them whichever way they went. The Clone Army was Lucas reiterating the old point about the Military-Industrial Complex*, fighting a needless war.

So by that logic, the Separatists WERE bad guys but not worth fighting. The Jedi would have been better off refusing to fight, but ultimately it was the People, who'd supported Palpatine, who doomed the Republic.

* Eisenhower warned in that speech about many government-supported industries taking over policy-making, but the military one is the only one remembered.

>>51258099

Have you ever been in love? Have you ever been in a marriage for a very long time? Have you ever seen one where both partners are passionate and prone to outbursts of paranoid and hatred?

I've seen many relationships like that. Even where they love one another, it's like they can't help it. Cheating, fighting over stupid shit, constantly doing evil shit to "send a message" to each other. Then occasionally they make up and have insane bouts of make-up sex before things fall apart again. Thrown plates and threats. He goes off and fucks some bimbo. She throws herself at a loser in a bar somewhere. Each nursing their own grievances and insisting that THEY are the victim.

Hopefully, they don't have kids. Because if they do, well, suddenly the mindgames and cruelty is squared and cubed. The kids become weapons they use to hurt each other, prizes to squabble over, and battlegrounds to fight on. And if one loses a fight? Well, take it out on the kids, right? SOMEONE'S gotta pay.

It can be incredible how long those kinds of relationships can go on. Especially if one manages to take a position of dominance in the relationship. Abuse and mindgames and mutual loathing... and yet neither can quite bring themselves to break it off.

So if passionately in love, the standard sith dynamic of mutual loathing and hatred is guaranteed. An abusive relationship like that EXEMPLIFIES the sith dynamic-- so romance just makes the master-apprentice thing uglier and more horrific.