So I have started watching Star Wars:Rebels and now am really

>>51200425
Because it's a dumb concept in Star Wars.

Star Wars is about the battle between good and evil. It's a swashbuckling fantasy series first and foremost, exploration of gradient morality is best left to genres that aren't for children and about laser swords and space wizards.

>>51200425
My only hope is that thrawn survives this season after fucking wreaking everyone just so we have a possibility for a spin off movie

>>51200460
I think part of the reason why people really liked KotOR 2 was because it did do the "exploration of gradient morality" and it did it well.

>>51200529
Only if you buy into Kreia's preaching and forget that she was a genocidal megalomaniac desperate to blame something else for her own failings.

>>51200425
Because the dark side is inherently alluring and almost everyone who has tried to blend the two ends up focusing on the dark side and falling as a result. Maintaining control is kind of hard when the power that you're using is intensely addictive even more than UNLIMITED POWER usually is. It's like saying that you're going to use meth in a balanced and controlled manner. Is it possible? Maybe for a truly exceptional individual. Is it likely? Nope.

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>>51200425
> Someone that can perhaps use his anger, fear and sadness and maybe even the good emotions as a controlled source of power while maintaining balance and control
Emotions exist specifically to override balance and control. Think about why a species evolves emotions like fear or anger. They are powerful impulses, and the thing driving their selection across generations is the fact that they give you a shift kick in your mental butt and get you to do something regardless of rational thought because rational thought is sometimes too slow.

That thing you saw floating in the river for just a split second before it vanished under the water? Sure, your rational mind could calculate the odds of it being something dangerous versus something benign. You could maintain balance and control, after all it might have just been a fish, or a stick, or whatever. But fear kicks in and forces you to run, and while it might have been nothing, it also might have been a crocodile that was moving in to strike and if you had stayed you'd be lunch. Over the generations, the individuals that have a more powerful fear response survive to reproduce and pass on that trait, while the more rational, balanced, and controlled individuals are eaten by crocodiles and thus don't pass that on.

You're relying on the idea that you can both use fear while controlling it. But the entire reason that an emotional response like fear has endured is that it is capable of overpowering reason and forcing you to take swift, impulsive action.

TL;DR
> Already I can see the chain reaction: the chemical precursors that signal the onset of an emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic and reason.

>>51200425
Canon Star Wars has saturday morning cartoon morality, you can't use the bad dude powers because they're bad and then you turn bad. Blame George, he made very clear how he wanted things, maybe in time Disney will slowly move to more grey areas.

>>51201034
This is what I really don't like about Star Wars.

It's a shame, because the setting is great to explore some morality gradients, but instead we just get "the evil fascist empire that is defeated by the good rebels".

IMO Rogue One seems to have tried to make some changes in this regard - at least the Empire says that they want to bring peace to the universe (not just "join us because we are evil and powerful") and there are some terrorist rebels, although I think they could have done a bit more.

I want to believe that the natural state of the Force is the Dark Side and that's why everybody gets drawn to it but never into the Light Side, it's the Jedi the ones who have to be careful with it, but the Sith never "accidentally" fall into the Light Side. That's why there aren't Jedi who use DS powers.

>>51201231
At the end of the day, the Empire is still a horribly oppressive authoritarian state. People sometimes say that's too simplistic and a more realistic approach would be better, but the fact is that horribly oppressive authoritarian states are actually very realistic. They've happened a lot in real life, history has shown that you can even get downright hilariously evil regimes at times. Really good people might be rare in real life, but there isn't a corresponding shortage of incredibly evil ones.

The rebels, on the other hand, specifically work hard to maintain their image. The fact that they don't do ridiculously evil things isn't because they're inherently good, there have always been some nasty people in the rebellion though that comes up more in the novelizations than the movies themselves, but rather it's because they know it won't help them. The public image of the rebel alliance as morally upstanding and even humanitarian is the one thing that has kept them alive, because as we can see from the very start of A New Hope, they have a very high attrition rate. Recruitment is vital to the rebellion, and acting like a heroic group is good for that.

>>51201680

The most recent episode of rebels actually covered this fact decently. With a rebel arguing for much harder actions, torture and terrorism. The counterpoint to it being that the rebels rely on the good will of the people for shelter and supplies. The short term, small victories they could earn that way pale to long term sustained support.

>>51201231
The Empire trying to bring peace to the Galaxy existed before Disney, fuck, in the old EU the Emperor all what he did was to save the Galaxy, by uniting all systems under a same "flag", from the yuuzhan vong a super powerful alien race from beyond the known space (doesn't turn him good but makes the creation of the Empire have more sense than "unlimited power!")

The stormtroopers are recuitred from people who willingly join the Empire, they aren't forced, etc

Fuck, look at the new Republic now, they're so retarded believing a treaty is going to protect them from attacks that they don't even have a proper army and got curbstomped by the FO, they did absolutely nothing to defend themselves thinking just a paper was enough of a defense

>>51201034

I'd honestly prefer they didn't. Shades of grey isn't something that inherently makes everything better. There is room for stories of good and evil. I think you'd lose a lot of the mystique of the force.

>>51201720

>Fuck, look at the new Republic now, they're so retarded believing a treaty is going to protect them from attacks that they don't even have a proper army and got curbstomped by the FO

The FO never fought Republic forces in TFA. They fought the privately funded new rebellion and even then, they were generally evenly matched (After all, the stormtroopers started getting fucked when the rebels claimed air superiority in the big battle in the middle)

The Republic lost planets to a sudden superweapon sneak attack but they never really had a fight.

>>51201672
It's the opposite. The "natural" state of the force is the light side. The problem is that the force needs to act through people, and those people will pretty much always have at least some emotions. Even the most stoic person has at least some emotions, albeit limited and suppressed. So no matter what, the force will always interact with the world through a filter that colors it with emotion.

"Light" Jedi try to limit the amount of emotion that they mix with the force when they use it, and as a result come closer to the "natural" state of the force. Still, they can never actually reach a truly emotionless state and so there will always be at least a little distance between the force that they use and the full light side, which is basically just a theoretical concept because no one will actually be able to touch it.

"Dark" Jedi go in the opposite direction. They try to maximize the amount of emotion that they inject into the force when they use it. They think this both makes it more powerful and gives them control over it, since they are basically twisting the force into a reflection of what they are feeling. While it is easier to do, it is also highly addictive and amplifies the emotions in question, basically making you into anything from a slave to your passions to an egotistical asshole. Since it's your emotions running the show, that basically becomes all you care about. A user's number one relationship is with their drug, everything else is secondary.

> but the Sith never "accidentally" fall into the Light Side.
In TOR there was one. The other Sith killed him for it, but you find him chilling as a force ghost. Basically he realized that the Sith Code was a lie, the dark side doesn't set you free and instead just makes you a slave to your own impulses. He was branded a heretic by the other Sith and murdered.

>>51201755
The republic did nothing to stop the FO, nor to defend themselves, spy what they were doing, etc, they though a mere piece of paper was going to save them to the bitter end. Fuck, this whole armada was in the system, THEIR WHOLE FUCKING ARMADA IN A SINGLE POINT, this is moronic. There was also a lot of infighting in the new republic and half of it didn't even want an army because "muh we can repeat our past sins!"

Also, for a couple of dudes with no resources as the FO is defined in the new canon, building a superweapon 10 times as big as the DS and once it blows up in its first day treat it as a pocket change makes no sense.

>>51201801
>The "natural" state of the force is the light side
As engineer the natural state of things is the one things get drawn to, if you're Light Side user any small change can move you to the Dark Side, the opposite doesn't happen. Light Side seems like a metastable state to me. Of course, canonwise is how you say, but what the canon says and what literally the canon shows is not the same.

>>51201720
The Emperor wanted to rule. Don't act like he was thinking of some greater good beyond himself, because literally nothing supports that. He wanted to rule the galaxy, and the Yuuzhan Vong were RIVALS.

> The stormtroopers are recuitred from people who willingly join the Empire, they aren't forced, etc
Lots of militaries have volunteers, that doesn't make them good or evil. It's a function of everything from nationalism to propaganda to simply lacking better options. People in North Korea are willing to go to great lengths to get into the military on a permanent basis, if only because that guarantees them more food than they would otherwise get.

>>51201672
>but the Sith never "accidentally" fall into the Light Side.

Isn't that Kylo Ren's entire issue? He wants to be a badass dark sith but he's really, really not naturally inclined that way?

>>51201844
Reread the post, I didn't say the Empire was good, didn't say the empero wasn't evil, I just gaveyou reasons why isn't "lulzevil". Having volunteers means that they believe in what they're fighting for, does that turn 80% of the galaxy evil? You think every stormtrooper and their families are evil? the janitors, the engineers, etc are evil?

>>51201845
He murdered his own father. I'd say he is inclined toward the dark side. Most people who use the dark side aren't badass, only the very top dogs get to that level. Your average dark side user is a self-centered, petty, vindictive asshole. It's a philosophy built around indulging in your passions without regard for others. Some of them become badass Sith Lords who troll the whole galaxy with their UNLIMITED POWER, but the vast majority don't. Look at the Sith Academy in KOTOR. Bunch of self-absorbed brats who think that force powers give them a license to be a backstabbing dicks.

>>51201845
Speculation, he only had problems with killing his father, that doesn't turn him good, neither makes him fall into the light side, he just doesn't go full evil for the sake of evil as Snoke seems him to be. He doesn't seem to have many regrets about killing innocents and throws a fit every 5 seconds, to me that's the opposite of "falling into the light side", I give you the benefit of the doubt because we literally saw only one movie and his story is yet to be writen but for me is more "doesn't full dive into the pool of lava head first with a somersault" than "he isn't inclined to be bad".

>>51201903

I was going more with his speech when he was arguing with vader's helmet. Talking about how he didn't think he was strong enough to do what he needs to do and he want's his grandfather's help.

I might be over-reading but it felt like someone trying to escape regrets and ethical worries about what he's doing.

>>51200425
The Dark Side is pretty much the equivalent of the One Ring in LotR. It's supposed to be the ultimate corruption.

>>51201872
> Reread the post, I didn't say the Empire was good, didn't say the empero wasn't evil, I just gaveyou reasons why isn't "lulzevil".
And I'm giving you a reason that the emperor wasn't in it to save the galaxy by uniting it all under the same flag. He wasn't interested in saving anything. He wanted power, and wasn't interested in sharing. You claim that UNLIMITED POWER doesn't make sense as a motivation, but in reality people like that crop up all the damn time. Is it simple? Sure. Still perfectly realistic. Sometimes motivations are surprisingly simple.

> You think every stormtrooper and their families are evil? the janitors, the engineers, etc are evil?
Personally, maybe. Maybe not. But they're certainly helping an extremely evil person maintain an extremely evil regime. The fact that they believe in their cause doesn't change that. People can believe in all manner of stupid or evil things.

>>51201924
It didn't strike me as regrets so much as him recognizing that he's actually not as powerful as all that. Dude did get his ass beat by an outer rim scavenger with zero experience as a jedi. Though admittedly he had been shot.

There's one example of a Sith falling into the light side, Ulic Quel-Droma, after they stripped the Force out of him....fuck, never mind

>>51202009
Also that was more a case of him realizing how much he'd fucked up after murdering his younger brother in a fit of rage. Then it took him years spent in seclusion to finally move back toward the light. Not so much a fall as a slow, arduous climb back up. Then he got shot and killed by a nobody who wanted to make a name for himself by killing a famous Sith Lord.

>>51202056
No, I meant, is "easy" to come back to the "good" side when the Dark Side isn't pulling you back because the Force doesn't affect you anymore.

>>51201672
kel'eth ur a nothing minor NPC in TOR fell to the light side. He also seemed cooler than the jedi to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQar1NXXMFI

>>51200425
>but surly there must have been a force user that for example uses his emotions for power yet does not succumb to them ?
It's not about having emotions, it's about letting them control you. And the kind of power you need means you will be letting them drive your actions.

>>51201720
That Palpatine thing is horseshit.

Did the Emperor foresee the Vong and want to fight them? Yes. Was he doing it to save the galaxy? Fuck no. Was he doing it for any reason other than he saw the galaxy as his and didn't want a bunch of BDSM-obsessed assholes taking it from him? Yes.

>>51202307
>MMORPG
Hahahaha, no

>>51202367
Star wars movies except the original three are shit, I don't really see the difference.

>>51202307
> He also seemed cooler than the jedi to me.
He's basically a super-jedi. After all, this was a guy who was born and raised among the Sith, lived under the yoke of a Sith Empire, and yet managed to intellectually find his way out of that morass of dickishness and turn to the light. It's like going about your day wearing hundreds of pounds of weights, and then finally taking them off.

Also he's got a bitchin' hat.

>>51200857
Thats why KOTOR 2 is a well written game.
Nevermind that Kreia do fail to wrestle The Force at some point as well.

>>51202364
Crap, remove that "any reason other than" thing, should have said because.

>>51201801
>Basically he realized that the Sith Code was a lie, the dark side doesn't set you free and instead just makes you a slave to your own impulses.
Basically he committed sudoku by being too smart and too dumb at the same time. The fact that last line of the Sith code talks about something else setting you free should have probably clued him that someone plays with loaded dice here.

>>51202383
I agree. Its the first time I've seen the light side be convincing other than "don't be a bad guy".

>>51202391
Again, nobody is saying Palpatine was good or that did things out of his good heart, but he wasn't lulzevil for the sake of evil (before Disney at least), he had some constructive plans and wanted things to work, under his command, but to work, he also wanted stability in the galaxy, under his command, but wanted stability. Was the Empire evil? well, for sure was leaded by an Evil person, but had some good stuff going onw, good in the sense of civilization moving forward, prosperity and shit

Other sith in previous EU all they wanted was fighting, warring, killing, etc with no thoughts in an afterward

>>51201801
Taking into account that the Force doesn't exist without life (and viceversa) and that the only way we have to perceive it is through life, I'm fairly sure that the Force will always tend to the Dark Side because life has emotions.

>Hey, my Revan went intermitently between Light and Dark because I killed or spared out of a whim so that means you can bounce between one and another fucking easily
Is a fucking game, you can use that as example of anything

>>51201828
>the opposite doesn't happen.
Outside of SWOTOR MMO, we don't have any semi cannon material where Dark Side is the majority.

>>51202572
Outiside of TOR MMORPG, in all the history of the Force there wasn't a Dark Side user drawn to the Light Side, only Vader and that mainly was a singular point to save his son and wasn't a "oh shit, I'm slowing beign drawn by the Light Side which according to the setting I'm is the natural state of the Force"

>>51200425
The Dark Side is not a discrete form of the Force, it's the Force with cancer. You can't combine them like that.

The Force draws a lot from Buddhism, which focuses a lot on not being attached, letting go of the physical world to embrace the spiritual. Strong emotions pretty much always derive from attachment.

In the case of the Force, this is particularly deadly, because it produces a feedback loop. Strong emotions mean stronger ripples in the Force which means stronger and more extreme emotions, and so on. It begins to literally physically decay you. This is why the Jedi preach such a sterile ideology, because passion is downright deadly! Of course, not all Force users feel this way. Qui-Gon didn't.

People razz on the 'fear leads to anger' speech, but it really makes perfect sense in the context of the Jedi faith.

Take death. Fear of death leads to anger that you can't prevent it in you and those you love. That anger finds an outlet in proxies as hate. And of course this causes suffering for you, for those you care about, and for your victims.

>>51200425
Because one cannot be both furious and calm simultaneously without being a sociopath.

>>51202632
>Take death. Fear of death leads to anger that you can't prevent it in you and those you love. That anger finds an outlet in proxies as hate. And of course this causes suffering for you, for those you care about, and for your victims.

And one of the Sith actually cured death (from old age at least). Though he was killed before he could make it known to general public or at least just more people.

Anger can lead to more things than just simple destruction.

>>51202690
>>51202632
There's this Jedi from 300 AFTER Yavin, called Cade Skywalker, who has the unique power to bringing people from the doors of death back, basically ressurrects them if they died like seconds ago, but all Jedi go "Nooo!, Dark Side power, that's bad! let people go! attachment bad!", it's fucking stupid.

Dude is a prick that is more dark sider than grey jedi, but at least he's just ruthless to evil people and a just dick to his friends

>>51202690
>before he could make it known to general public
I'll take "things that were never going to happen" for 10, Anon.

What that Sith Lord did was basically twist and corrupt the Force, via a thing that had been set into motion several centuries earlier, into healing and restoring his body, directly turning himself against the cycle of life within the universe itself. He also monologues that in doing so, he felt the Force react negatively to his presence and "go somewhere" to "do something". And coincidentally, right around then is when Anakin was spawned.

>>51202729
shittily-written EU is not canon.

And someone needs to remember their OT Yoda

>luminous beings are we, not this crude matter

>>51202763
>I'll take "things that were never going to happen" for 10, Anon.
It doesn't matter what he wanted to do. There is this thing that most Sith genius like to have - recognition. Sooner or later he would have mentioned this process to other people and it would have spread.

Also Sith and most people don't give a fuck about "cycle of life"

>>51202482
> he also wanted stability in the galaxy, under his command, but wanted stability.
Again, no. This isn't a case of "oh, disney changed it." Look at Dark Empire. When Palpatine was cloned he helped to foster civil war among the Imperial Remnants, resulting in the deaths of millions as core world like Coruscant were turned into war zones by rival warlords. All so that he could emerge on top and reclaim total control of the Empire and usher in a brutal dark side aristocracy. Which, by the way, featured constant infighting as per Sith tradition. He didn't want stability. He wanted power.

Nor did the Empire bring prosperity to its people. Its obsession with militarism even when the weapons they were producing were ineffective led to the decline of many worlds. That's one of the reasons people supported the rebellion. The Empire didn't "move civilization forward" as you claim. If anything, it sank back into things like slavery and simple brutality. Prosperity? The production of weapons such as the Death Star were a massive theft from the people of the galaxy. The Empire sucked up wealth and resources and spat out absurd super weapons in an attempt to assert dominance. That isn't prosperity, it's blatant overcompensating.

>>51202796
He did mention it to another person.

His apprentice.

Guess what happened next.

>>51202793
Is shittily-written canon canon?
Because Yoda knew what was going to happen and not only did nothing, he also got caught by surprise his vision of the future happened.

Also Jedi built their temple on top of a dark side volcano (it's odd how many worlds erupt dark side and literally almost none that erupt light side, which helps my point of dark side is the natural state of the Force but I digress) and that turned off their Sith detector and they knew about it and also did nothing, etc.

>>51202625
OT tells us that the Dark Side is a perversion, and you can't just handwoven Vader.

Shitty EU fanfiction is subordinate.

>>51202842
It wasn't a dark side volcano, just a massive nexus well of Force energy. If you mean the Coruscant one. Yavin 4 is a better candidate for Dark Side volcano for Luke's new Jedi Order in the EU, but in that case, in all fairness, he had no idea at the time that there was a Sith spirit stalking it and waiting for a bunch of corruptible Jedi kids to show up.

>>51202842
The Jedi built their Temple atop a Sith shrine, not a dark side volcano.

>>51202851
What it tells us and what you actually see are two different things.
Canon tell us First Order are a bunch of nobodies with literally no resources a mere shadow of the vast power of the Empire, yet they treat the Starkiller base (10 times bigger than the second death star) as fucking pocket change, how? fuckign how when the Death Stars were so expensive for the Empire?

Same with the Force, they tell us the Light Side is the natural state but in 99.99% of cases the path of less effort is to the Dark Side, Light Side is what in engineering is called a Metastable path, like a rock on top of a cliff, a small force will fuck that shit up and make the rock topple to the bottom, the state of maximum stability. Rocks don't to go up of cliffs naturally.

>>51202887
>>51202861
No volcano in the literally sense, it was a metaphore, it was a Sith Temple that literally was erupting Dark Side constantly. Still is stupid beyond belief to do that, then they go all "gee we can't find the Sith in the senate, why would that be? I dunno", "gee we don't have visions of the future because the "dark side clouds everything in great danger you are"", fucking morons.

>>51202833
People like to pretend that the Empire did lots of good things that it didn't actually do in order to justify their love of it. /tg/ has a very strong authoritarian bent, so it's not really surprising that people here want to believe that the Empire can't possibly be as evil as it is portrayed.

>>51200425
Luke is exactly what you are talking about. He rejected the Jedi way of life by embracing his emotions, including the "bad" ones, but rejected the sith by not allowing himself to be consumed by them

>>51202898
In the EU, the orgigin is that the original sith race had people who served is, Sith Lords, who were strong in the Dark Side. Because the Dark Side can use your own emotions agaisnt you, those who wished to rebel studied the Force in secret and developed mental regimens and self control to the point where the could combat the Sith without giving the Sith access to their use of the Force or their emotional strength by practiced asceticism.

The sith were destroyed, the sith lords disbanded, and the Jedi became peacekeepers in a newly freed civiliztion.

So you are, in one way, correct - the Jedi are not the natural methodology of Force use. But neither are the ways of the Sith. This is also why Sith are so gung-ho on retaking control of civilization to the point of stupidity.

>>51202926
I don't buy it.

>http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sacred_spire

That's what the Jedi Temple on Coruscant was in the EU. I can see no reference at all to it being a Sith Temple, and as autistic as the Wook is, they go out of their way to catalogue everything they possibly can.

>>51202929
Yep he decided that a couple of thousand years of retardation is enough and tried to take a more sensible approach.

>>51202898
The dark side is the easy path because of how stupidly strong emotions can be. It's like how it's much easier to move a rock with a lever than with your bare hands. It's not that a small force will knock it over, but that the emotions act like a tool in order to move it more easily. Of course the drawback is that this particular tool also has addictive properties and turns you into a selfish asshole.

>>51202963
Shelling of Korriban didn't help matters too. Jedi and Sith have a long story of grudges.

>>51202977
The latter part of the EU had some hints that there was some sort of dark side thing underneath the Temple on Coruscant.

TCW actually was going to go into it, there's even concept art for it, but the canon novel Tarkin was where it ended up being established that there is a Sith shrine buried deep underneath the Jedi Temple. The Jedi established the Temple there in hopes to cancel out the effects of the shrine, but it didn't work - in fact, it's theorized that the shrine ended up corrupting the Temple to some extent - and that Palpatine was using this shrine to muck with their abilities to see the future.

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Anybody who says Star Wars is a good setting to explore morality, the human condition, the nature of humans is a fucking retard.

Star Wars, like all fantasy, is purely there to feel out the edges of the nature of literature and, more specifically, story telling as an art.

Any media that does not align with this will ruin the other Star Warses. Like watching a village of Mon Calamari get gang raped by Quarine in a never ending race war for Water World is sure going to be called back the next time Admiral Ackbar comes on screen the next time you watch RotJ.

That's why Disney rebooted the canon, that's why it's a good thing, and that's why Rogue One sucks.

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>>51203028
>>51202977

TCW was also going into Order 66 before it got ended

>>51202898
Starkiller base doesn't need a gigantic battery infrastructure.
Even the weapon is pretty shitty for something as impressive as it is.

>>51202978
Technically it wasn't a couple of thousand years. The more rigid incarnation of the Jedi Order from the prequels is the result of the Ruusan Reformation, which was 1,000 BBY.

And in their defense, it was a doctrine designed for the time. The Sith War was over, the galaxy was recovering, and the Republic was growing increasingly uncomfortable with the idea of an "Army of Light" and "Jedi Lords." Pre-reformation, the Jedi didn't flat out deny emotions or reject all attachments. Jedi did do things like fall in love, get married, raise families, etc. pre-reformation.

But after the end of the Sith War and increasing mistrust from the Republic, the Jedi started to transition to a more monastic, passive role in order to assuage the fears of the galaxy at large. They stopped being warriors and lords, gave up much of their complexity, and generally withdrew from galactic affairs. Their training and code changed to reflect this, as they switched focus from going out and defeating evil to just training generation after generation of force sensitives to be monks who wouldn't terrify the galaxy.

That sort of worked during peace time, but it blew up in their faces when the Clone Wars finally rolled around because it turns out the war wasn't actually won. The Sith were still out there, and the post-reformation Jedi Order was not designed to fight them. It was design to be a bunch of simple monks who wouldn't scare people.

Restricting your emotions tends to lead to a serious lack of empathy, which made the Jedi Order seriously self-centered and only concerned about themselves and their spiritual purity. It's why the Jedi in KotOR refused to help the republic in the mandalorian wars, it's why the jedi refused to actually intervene in the conflict between the republic and the CIS, and it's the reason why yoda and obi wan's shitty ghost told luke to not go save his friend's life.

Crazy stupid precautionary measures to avoid going to the dark side are more important than innocent lives, and of course since Jedi are trained and sheltered basically from birth, they aren't emotionally prepared to deal with their emotions and become consumed by them, falling to the dark side.

The Sith are a symptom of the Jedi Order. The fall of Revan and the fall of Anakin are the fault of the Jedi just as much if not more than it was the fault of those individuals, and Luke is fairly unique in rejecting those, as he is already an emotionally healthy individual by the time he begins his jedi training, and not coincidentally becomes the most powerful force user ever because of it.

>>51200529
I mean the first kotor had that grey jedi too.
Now I'm actually remembering a bit more and his story of the jedi who had the force swirling around them like you suggesting a mighty fate and were all full of themselves because of it leading to his end being thrown into an engine by the bbeg and hitting the one in a million chance of fucking up the whole ship.

>>51202929
He embraced the positive and rejected the negative even though it meant the Emperor would kill him.

>>51203106
Jolee Bindo, you mean? People forget that for all his talk, he was still pretty firmly on the side of the Jedi when it came time to choose. Hell, the Jedi Council actually liked him. Bindo just didn't like them as much. They wanted to make him a knight, but he turned them down and went off to live as a hermit.

>>51201801
Idk about current canon but there have been examples of the jedi fucking up and fucking themselves over by being too caught up in their own rules and sense of emotional superiority.

>>51203234
Because getting too attached to your rules about attachment is itself an attachment, and a sense of superiority is an emotion.

>>51203078
> It's why the Jedi in KotOR refused to help the republic in the mandalorian wars
Because they foresaw that if the Jedi got involved, it would lead to another war right on the heels of the Mandalorian War. And it turns out they were completely right.

> it's why the jedi refused to actually intervene in the conflict between the republic and the CIS
Except that they did. In the Clone Wars they took on the role of generals and fought extensively against the CIS for the Republic.

> it's the reason why yoda and obi wan's shitty ghost told luke to not go save his friend's life.
They told him not to go because he wasn't ready to face Vader yet. And they were completely right, Vader schooled him and he basically didn't help at all.

>>51203078
>Yoda: Luke save your friends you don't
>Luke: B-but muh friends
>Yoda: No
>Obi [whispering]: Mmm, Yoda, my man, among his friends there's also the other one, you know
>Yoda: SHIEEEET, Luke go...oh, he left, thank god, imagine if followed my advice he had

>>51203336
Arguably Luke going to face Vader only made things worse, everybody would have still escaped anyway.

>>51203347
> imagine if followed my advice he had
He would have had more time to train and wouldn't have lost his hand.

Han ended up in carbonite and shipped off to Jabba anyway, and Leia escaped because Lando double-crossed the Empire, not because of Luke. At the end, Luke was the one who needed to be saved after he ended up hanging from a weathervane on the underside of Cloud City.

>>51203336
>Because they foresaw that if the Jedi got involved, it would lead to another war right on the heels of the Mandalorian War. And it turns out they were completely right.
Which happened in part because council tried to stop jedi from participating. A case of self-fulfilling prophecy.

>>51203408
No, it happened because of sunk costs fallacy, which isn't restricted to Jedi. After Malacore, Revan and the Jedi who fought alongside him basically said "Well, we've done so much horrible stuff in this war that there's no turning back now" and went full Sith.

>>51202763
Oh better not use the force to heal ANY injuries or disease or even just prevent accidental death since it goes against the cycle of life itself, if you're gonna die then you're supposed to die.

Also weren't there implications that he actually had a hand in anakin's creation? I mean if anakin was supposed to be the force correcting the imbalance of eternal youth then it did a shitty job which was the whole idea with him not actually fulfilling the prophecy.

>>51203514
It's not what the guy did. Jedi healers do injury and disease healing, and Jedi can literally enter healing trances to help their body recover. It's how he did it that matters.

And no, Anakin was the Force's response to eliminate the imbalance represented by the Sith. And he did that. It took him a while, and he needed Luke's help to get the job done when everything went to shit, but he did it.

>>51203439
I thought it was more like Revan thought the republic had become a joke a needed a tune up because he was afraid of something else wiping it out, while Malak became a teamkilling douche and just fucked up that plan

>>51203573
Really, wiping out most of the jedi and killing the apprentice of the guy who upset the cycle of life but not actually getting rid of the sith was the force successfully fixing the imbalance of upsetting the cycle of life by preventing death?

>>51203940
No. The destruction of the Jedi had nothing to do with it. Anakin himself maybe killed 2-3% of the Jedi, total.

The prophecy was the destruction of the Sith would bring balance to the Force. Anakin fulfilled this by killing Palpatine and casting off the identity of Darth Vader, but it took Luke acting as a catalyst for him to finally turn back to the light and perform the duty he had been created for.

>>51203994
But that wasn't the destruction of the sith.

>>51204034
Yes, it was. With Palpatine and Vader both destroyed, there are no more Sith. The prophecy has been fulfilled.

>>51200425
pretty sure darth vectuvius did that. then again his story comes from a pretty shady source so yeah.
also not-canon anymore, thanks disney.

>>51201231
I think Star Wars handles it in an interesting way. There is actually a lot of grey area in the Galaxy, in fact most of what we see in the setting are areas of seedy commerce and contentious, complex politics. It's really just the magic system that's bound to a black and white morality, and I think that's a perfectly acceptable way to build a world. Being a sorcerer usually means you're bound by some esoteric rules that don't affect ordinary people.

>>51204034
I actually prefer the concept of Dark Siders who aren't Sith anyway, they're easier to fit into their own stories.

>>51204157
Non-Canon

>>51201231
>at least the Empire says that they want to bring peace to the universe
We already saw Palpatine use that argument to become emperor in RotS. It was entirely disingenuous, since they already had a long standing peace until his manipulations ended it.

It makes sense that a lot of imperial officers would buy into the idea that they're keeping the galaxy safe. But as the audience we know that the real point of the Galactic Empire is Palaptine getting off on the power.

>>51203044
The smuggling, politics and crime part of Star Wars is great.
Everything else is just well done.
Its not like the best part of Clone Wars Series was the Politics(Hint: It was)

>>51200425
I believe Mace's fighting style actually revolved around that.

>>51208718
The best parts of Clone Wars were;
>Ventress
>Maul
>every episode that happened on Geonosis
>Anakin actually being a cool guy
>Orange Buttcheeks

>>51203045
The Clone Wars was just too good for this Earth.

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>>51210622
>not all clone related episodes and all clone centric stories
>muffled cries of umbaran genocide
>muffled "it ain't me" playing

Everything points to Grey Jedi being the true stable form of the force. Yet you get hundreds of autists quoting George's black and white line. I don't care what George intended his work to be, the Star Wars story has been, and continues to be, a continuous retelling of the virtues of balance.

KotOR: Extreme Light or Dark energies disturb the force.
Fall of Anakin: Light side hero falls to darkness because of Light sides constraints.
Yoda's CW force ghost training arc: By denying and supressing his emotions he was slowly falling out of balance. Ends up accepting his fears, but not letting them rule him. Meets a ghost of pure Light Side energies that is a merging of emotionality and goodness, tests Yoda by tempting him with several fantasy visions where his emotions threaten to overcome him.
Qi Gon: Goes through the same shit as Yoda, apparently fails or doesn't finish training, still can slightly manifest as force ghost.
Bendu: Rebels has a giant sage yeti who claims that balance is the key and claims to be a Grey force user.

The key to the force has always said to be balance, and as much as the Jedi like to jack off about their stoicism, all they are doing is supressing their faults. They literally show this in canon, but autists will scream for the rest of time how "Jedi so gud!" And yet each Jedi focused story we see is the continial fall and collapse of the Jedi belief structure.

>>51200425
because star wars depicts a manichean struggle between good and evil warped by Lucas's post-modern pseudo-rationalism and shallow hippie mysticism.

>>51211146

Dude the clone episodes are the GOAT

>>51211221
Is this pasta?
It can't be a coincidence that literally everything I read about Grey Jedi is cringey as fuck.

>>51211221
>Qi Gon: Goes through the same shit as Yoda, apparently fails or doesn't finish training, still can slightly manifest as force ghost.
Qui-Gon was light side and anti-authority, take your cringey "light and dark together" shit and get out.

>>51211221
You're mixing up the "light side" (no such thing; it's just the neutral/natural state of the force) with the jedi specifically. The jedi order is light side, the light side isn't necessarily the jedi order. KotOR is about the ideological struggle between two religiopolitical factions. Anakin's issues are mainly caused by the rigidity of the jedi order's codes and dogmas. A grey jedi is, in fact, simply a "light side" force user who doesn't adhere to the jedi code specifically. The jedi order simply took stoicism too far.

>>51203065
I didn't know about that, and that's actually pretty interesting.

Thanks anon.

>>51211822
>Anakin's issues are mainly caused by the rigidity of the jedi order's codes and dogmas.
And his serious attachment issues. It's implied that at least some Jedi knew full well what he got up to with Padme, they just politely ignored it in the hopes that he wouldn't be a moron when it was crunch time.

One of the now-Legends comics had Obi-Wan show up at Naboo where Anakin and Padme were having lunch, and when Anakin acts surprised about it he says that it's not a secret, most of the Temple novices know where he'll be when he's not on duty.

And in Ep 3 his conversation with Yoda was full of implied meaning with Yoda sounding like he knew exactly who Anakin was talking about. Ironically, had Anakin followed those suggestions none of the subsequent events would have taken place.

>>51211686
And yet Qui Gon is chosen by the force to get special snow flake ghost powers. It's no coincidence that every (movie) Jedi we see that doesn't follow the rigors of the Jedi code ends up getting personally blessed by the force.

>>51211822
I don't want to argue semantics. Grey Jedi, Dark Jedi, Light, Dark, Purple, whatever you want to call it. What I'm saying is that neither the Jedi's nor Sith's ideology is correctly balanced in view of the force. What people call the "Light side" ends up just as destructive as the the "Dark side" in the long run.

However, I will admit we have never seen the fruit of a "Grey" force weilder other than "The Father" which may or may not have been the force dosing Anakin, Obi, and Ahsoka with LSD.

>>51212141
>What I'm saying is that neither the Jedi's nor Sith's ideology is correctly balanced in view of the force. What people call the "Light side" ends up just as destructive as the the "Dark side" in the long run.
My point is that there's a clear separation between the respective sides of the force itself (the natural/neutral state and corruption of it) and the factions that use it. The Jedi and the Sith are two religiopolitical organisations with their own dogmas and codes. KotOR2 isn't so much about "light" side vs dark side as jedi vs sith on an ideological level. Both of them are religious groups hellbent on seeing their view of the force be the dominant one, whatever the reason. The people of the war torn worlds of the mid- and outer rim don't really differentiate between the two; ultimately they're just lightsaber-wielding crusaders. Consider how few jedi there were in the galaxy even at their peak; they were an extreme rarity for the common people even then.

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>>51200425
>Aside from that something that always bugged me is in the Star Wars universe is why combining both dark and light side is so hard or unheard of ?
Because, going by the original trilogy at least and ignoring all that prequel and nonsense the light side and the dark side of the force are not good and evil, they are balance and imbalance. When Lucas was writing this shit in the late 70s he was clearly modeling it after Buddhist tenets. Jedi were basically the monks from martial arts movies, but in space. You can't take aspects of imbalance and combine them with balance and there is nothing desirable about being imbalanced, other than the fact that it is generally tempting to care about worldly things and matters.

This is why when Luke asks if the dark side is stronger Yoda tells him it's not. We're told it's "quicker, easier, more seductive". When you choose the path of expediency you allow worldly desires (such as the need for power) to control you. When Yoda says "If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice." he's not saying it will literally corrupt you and turn your lightsaber red, he's saying that straying from the course of balance and discipline is a slippery slope. Once you make one compromise it's easy to make a second, and a third, and so on.

That was before they morphed it into some Good/Evil dichotomy and then further warped it into a Push Things/Choke Things dichotomy which isn't even all that clear why the former is good and the latter is evil. All this shit about "light side powers" and "succumbing to the dark side" can go fuck itself. Every time I see some piece of media asking the viewer to choose a side of the force or whatever I want to force choke someone. When "evil" is reduced to "not really all that bad people who just happen to wear black hats" you wonder why anyone should even care about the conflict.

>>51212252
But if you agree that both factions respresenting the extreme ends of the force spectrum are wrong in their use of the force, how can you say that the Light side is the neutral state of the force?

It's because it isn't. The force is living. That's it. When you take a side (pacifism/agression) (healing/destruction) (stoicsm/emotional slavery) you end up out of the natural balance of the force. Life is about having a balance of all those things. The Light side just gravitates to one extreme while the dark the other. That's why 99% of creatures don't give a fuck about using the force, they just exist naturally in it. It's force sensitives that end up influenceing the natural order of things and fucking up the balance.

If the Light side was the natural flow of all life energy, we wouldn't see all the aggressive, domineering, predatory flora and fauna that exist in the Star War's wilds. Because that would be "against its nature."

>>51212141
Qui-Gon wasn't special snowflakey chosen, he just learned how from a bunch of reclusive Force-wielders not many others knew about. Yoda did the exact same thing.

>>51212401
Light side isn't even a thing really. Jedi is just an observational viewpoint rather than an active one. It's about understanding the force rather than manipulating it.

>>51200529
I think the reason it was I liked was because around 30% of the game was cut and the other 70% was glitch as hell like every goddamn Obsidian game ever.

>>51212488
The force guides Qui Gon to his teacher, (the shaman who may not be canon now) just like it guided Yoda to his. (The Priestess) Needless to say force immortality is a hidden and rare thing. So rare that no one has even heard of it until Qi Gon happens to meet the (maybe) first guy to do it.

>>51212401

>But if you agree that both factions respresenting the extreme ends of the force spectrum are wrong in their use of the force, how can you say that the Light side is the neutral state of the force?

There is no light side. There is 'The force' and 'The dark side'.

>>51203371
Without Luke there to hold Vader's attention, Lando's insurrection/evacuation plan might not have gone the way it did.

>>51210622
>Maul
Fuck no

>>51212716

What? We are literally shown instances time and time again of "The Light side." The whole Anakin meets the Father arc is about how to much Light or Dark is inheritably bad for the universe. This is literally stated and LITERALLY canon.

>>51212401
I think you're misunderstanding me again.

What I'm saying is that whilst the jedi use the force, they don't represent it. To be a jedi you need to be a user of the natural force, but you don't need to be a jedi to be a user of the natural force. And again, I'm definding jedi as a member of the jedi order which is a strict pseudo-monastic organisation. The jedi have occasionally taken a wrong turn by taking stoicism too far - they repressed their feelings instead of letting them flow as they should whilst controlling them. As opposed to the sith who let their emotions control them.

>>51212813
> The whole Anakin meets the Father arc is about how to much Light or Dark is inherently bad for the universe.
Funny how it's not too much light that turns out to be the problem. It's the Son going off the deep end and just completely giving in to the dark side that creates the problem.

You're just finding the message that you want to find.

>>51212000
Would be pretty hypocritical telling shit to Anakin when Ki Adi Mundi is married to like 12 women

>>51212777
That's why I said arguably.

>>51212376
>he's not saying it will literally corrupt you and turn your lightsaber red
New canon disagrees, your lightsaber will actually turn red

>>51212845
The Father literally says she's just as dangerous to the health of the universe if not kept in check. Her self sacrificing tendecies and unbridled compassion were just as much of a problem as the Brothers obvious saturday morning brand evil. (See as she too held Obiwan hostage to make Anakin choose between them.)

>>51212842
While we see more Jedi use the force naturally, the point still stands that *still* fucks up the balance of the force over the long run because of their actions (or lack of sometimes.)

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised that with the next two Disney movies we don't just learn that all force users just fuck up the balance just by existing.

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>>51212894
>New canon disagrees, your lightsaber will actually turn red
I know anon. I know.

>>51203106
Jolee is not gray in any way, he just thinks the Jedi Council is a bunch of fuckwits and he's right.

>>51208718
The best part of the Clone Wars series is the actual WAR starring "The Clones"

>>51201845
>Isn't that Kylo Ren's entire issue?
He isn't a Sith. They are extinct now

>>51215428
The Sith are a philosophy, an idea

You can't kill an idea, or wipe it out

You can't guarantee that people won't come back around to it, only two people in a galaxy of trillions need to

>>51215483
I wouldn't be so sure. I think the story has been moving in a "Is, but isn't" fashion.

We have the:
Not-Empire (First Order)
Not-Jedi (Rey)
Not-Rebels (Republic)
The Not-Deathstar, Not Yoda, Not-Bobba Fett... and then the Not-Sith Knights of Ren. I mean they are obviously similar, but the Sith were very much about keeping a very specific set of tradtions alive, who knows who Voldemort really is or what he's fighting for.

I think it's safer to say that there will always be darkside users, but maybe not Sith.

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>>51212894
>your lightsaber will actually turn red
That's just sad...

>>51215483
>The Sith are a philosophy, an idea
Yes and because of the rule of two, that philosophy is now lost. Sure it might and most likely will surface again if places like Korriban and holocrons still remain, but now there aren't any Sith left

>>51215602
>Kyber crystals were inherently attuned to the light side of the Force, and would attempt to resist any effort by dark side practitioners to utilize them in lightsabers. To this end, the only way a Sith, or other darksider could make use of a kyber crystal was to use the Force to dominate the crystal, bending it to their will. This process would cause the crystal to "bleed", as if it were a living organism, resulting in the distinctive crimson-bladed lightsabers synonymous with the Sith.

Kyber crystal is the lightsaber crystal now, only one, no more, and it changes color according to your personality or something like that, no more "this crystal makes lightsabers blue, and this other green, etc". Also they're sentient and have control on who uses them, which makes you wonder why sith can pick Jedi ligthsabers (like Dooku and Anakin) and kill other Jedi or children or why the Death Star can shoot, I guess these "!light side" sensitive crystals are psychos and allow baddies to use them.

Say thank you to the Mouse.

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>>51217621
That's retarded.

>>51217621
Where do they say that?

>>51218217
Part in TCW
Part in the canon comics and books

>>51213017
> The Father literally says she's just as dangerous to the health of the universe if not kept in check.
And as a result of that he was completely blindsided by the Son going full dark side crazy. The idea that they're both equally bad is simply incorrect. One turned out to be much more dangerous than the other, as evidence by the fact that it was the Son who started going murder happy in his quest to leave their isolated planet and go conquer the galaxy. The Father was wrong, and his entire family died as a result.

> Her self sacrificing tendecies and unbridled compassion were just as much of a problem as the Brothers obvious saturday morning brand evil.
This is both outright wrong and intellectually lazy. People who say that altruism is just as bad as egoism are engaging in willful denial. Someone who is compassionate and willing to sacrifice their own life to save others is not "just as much of a problem" as someone willing to murder millions for their own wealth and power. The egotistical person is much, much worse. But since you would much rather sit in the middle and condemn everyone else than actually examine the issue, you're willing to just ignore the fact that a cold-blooded murderer is in fact worse than someone who isn't a cold-blooded murderer.

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>>51217621
>>51217826
The old EU had stupid shit but the new canon is really trying to one-up it on that.

well its about how they use the force that is the big difference, see the Jedi act out the will of the force, essentially the middlemen, but they have some choice in the manner, but not much hence the whole the subplot about their ability to use the force diminishing because they were being pushed into doing things the force didn't want them doing.

The Sith are all about Commanding the Force, they don't ask they demand, and the Darkside only responds to those who meet a certain criteria which is why the Sith are the most prominent Dark side Cult, because their teachings are in accordance to the Darksides will.

both jedi and Sith teachings were built around how best to tap into those resources. the big problem is that the philosophies are so different they drive people insane with only vader being able to do it and even then there was problems

(personal theory) the new direction the story is going is about Snoke trying to get Kylo Ren to be able to use both the light and the darkside at the same time, reasoning that the grandchild of the chosen one is the most able to do it. this explains why he isn't using the "Sith" label.

>>51200460
Holy shit how is it 2017 and people not realize that the "light" side isn't the moral good but universal harmony. There is no absolute moral good in Star Wars.

>>51201034
>you can't use the bad dude powers because they're bad and then you turn bad.
The old EU has fucked us all into thinking this hasn't it.

>>51218719(you)
In the movie universe.

>>51218599
> The egotistical person is much, much worse

Only in a kid's cartoon. Meanwhile out here in the real world it's always the altruists who are murdering millions of people "for the greater good." A selfish person is much more trustworthy because he is rational and will always do what is in his own self-interest. An altruist on the other hand is wildly inconsistent, emotional, and there is no telling if the person will try to force something on you in the name of "good" and kill you if you object.

>>51218728

Well, Rebels did a pretty good job of showing the Dark Side twist on the same power.

Light Side: These are not the droids you are looking for.
Dark Side: You should kill all your friends then go jump off that cliff to your death.

>>51200425
Force powers aren't like spells.

Using the light-side of the force is about being passive and calm and letting the Force flow through you to guide your intent

The dark side is all about passion and feeling and making the Force do what you want it to do.

Understandably trying to balance both these things is pretty difficult

>>51218728
>Old EU
That comes directly from George not from the old EU, George wanted objective evil and objective good being the Sith the former and the Jedi the later, he hated the Grey Jedi idea, the in the middle Force User like Kyle Katarn, etc even when the old EU had many of those. So you're actually wrong, old EU has grey Jedi, new Canon (following George's ideas) doesn't.

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>>51218954
>Someone hasn't seen the BENDU.
>HOHO!

>>51218954

George is now longer the keeper of this realm, The Mouse holds sway over these lands and he will do what he want

>>51218758

ayn rand why are you back from the dead and browsing 4chan?

>>51218981

Ah, yes. Bendu. Master of the Threesome.

>>51219007
It's those damn libertarian necromancers.

>>51219014
>Light Side... Dark Side... I'm the one in the middle.

>>51202837
I always assumed that Palpatine discovered the extendo-life and told Anakin it was some other dude

>>51218981
So they changed from TCW?, Disney still seems to not know where to go. And no, I stopped after the sabercopters, that was too much for me

I want to cum inside Riyo Chuchi!

>>51212894
>>51213208
>>51215602
>>51217621

No, that's not how it works.

The kyber crystals are not mood rings. You bond with it once, and it stays that color. Anakin's lightsaber didn't turn red when he turned to the dark side, remember.

Dark side users force the crystals to bond with them, which makes them "bleed." But this is a specific ritual that they have to do in order to do this - it's not like the instant they pick up a lightsaber the crystal turns red.

Disney canon does have its share of retarded things, but you making things up doesn't help.

>>51219497
why change your lightsaber to a red one if you can use blues or greens easily? they don't give you any benefit

>>51219757
Dark side users CAN use regular sabers, but not easily. There's some degree of resistance, enough to be noticeable but not enough to completely stop your actions.

I guess cybernetic eyes aren't canon anymore, right?

>>51219982
They are. Count Vidian from the first canon novel A New Dawn has them.

>>51219994
Then why Kanan and Bendu said he couldn't restore his sight anymore

>>51220081
Cybernetics aren't restoring sight, they're replacing it. It's possible that Kanan and the Bendu were talking about actually healing his eyes - but for some reason, that's not possible.

>>51220081
He didn't want cyber eyes
OR
Rebel's don't have access to medical facilities for new eyes

>>51220081
because the producers wanted a blind jedi, this franchise is about what looks cool not about making sense

>>51220124
I think I remember the actor decided the character would be blind and the producers rolled with it

>>51215483
Rule of Two was a mistake.

>>51218665
Funny thing that. Most really powerful Sith actually could control themselves to a certain extent and hide their feelings if the need arises.

Most of those who could not were just brutes and meatshields that were discarded by their masters as the pawns they were.

>>51219132
It was Palpis master who discovered the trick. Palpatine soon promoted himself after finding about it.

>>51219497
So if lightsabers work and bond through Force does it mean that they now stop working if they come close to ysalamiri or something with similar effect?

Ugh, that whole new shit about lightsabers is dumb.

>>51221037
Ysalamiri don't exist in the new canon. The idea that something can exist outside the Force goes against George's wishes. It's why they didn't include ysalamiri when they brought Thrawn back for Rebels.

Lightsaber crystals have always been Force-related. New canon just made that connection more explicit.

>>51221083
Didn't ligthsabers were initially created as weapons for smug nobles to duel with?

>>51201828
Wow it's almost like in different fields words can have different uses.

>>51221037
It was done so that when disney gives its new protagonist sabers, they do not have to use old fluff or make up their own to show where other colors come from.

>>51221135
In the original story ideas, almost everyone had a lightsaber including the storm troopers.

It was way too fucking expensive to put into the movie.

>>51221173
thanks for your insight that literally brings nothing to the table, really, thanks

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>but surly there must have been a force user that for example uses his emotions for power yet does not succumb to them ?

You should go watch the final duel in Return of the Jedi again.

In Star Wars, good means do not make good ends, but evil means will always serve evil ends. There is a point where you can stop and pull back before going all the way, but still.

Now, one thing to keep in mind is that the Jedi never actually say anything bad about positive emotions. Joy is good, and a lot of Jedi smile quite a lot. Romantic love is only warned against because of its associations with attachment, jealousy, obsession, and a sort of greed -- love is not the problem so much as the fact that enormous numbers of people love in very unhealthy ways, and loving someone in the selfless sort of way that would be required of a Jedi is the kind of thing that's hard and takes a LOT of life experience to reach.

And you do have lines like "stretch out with your feelings" from Obi-Wan in A New Hope, "feel, don't think" from Qui-Gon in The Phantom Menace, etc. It's really incorrect to think that the Jedi just shun all emotion -- they emphasize control, not allowing your emotions to rule you.

Using the dark side requires giving in to your anger, your rage, your fear, your hatred. To use the dark side is to allow your emotions to rule you, rather than the other way around. That's never going to end well.

>>51223957
Qui-Gon was actually on not that good terms with the Council and skirted by the edge of what was deemed acceptable by jedi. And Obi-Wan was his padawan. They are exceptions not the norm.

All emotions including positive can be taken too far. So technically Council had a leg to stand on in their approach.

This interpretation of Dark Side also doesn't mesh that well with Palpatine who for all the faces he made during direct confrontations still definitely was able to keep big picture in mind. Yeah he had his biases due to the way he was taught but they didn't seem to stem from emotional response - more like dogmatic principles.

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People think that just because Lucas made the universe black and white that did not mean that the Jedi were "correct"
In the OT Obi-Wan blatantly lied to Luke, so did Yoda. They were setting up a kid to assassinate his own father and never tell him. They almost set Luke up with the perfect excuse to fall to the dark side and he only didn't due to his on non Jedi convictions. Love. The something that Jedi aren't allowed to feel.

Lucas may not have intended the idea of balance of the force to mean that Anakin killed the Jedi and Sith, but he still did that in practice, Yoda even says that the prophesy may have been misinterpreted. Ultimately, despite everyone saying that the original materials had no exploration of morality they really did, it just wasn't blatantly stated with one character going "you know, the Jedi might be a bit flawed but I don't feel like slicing up all of my friends" instead, we only got the point of view of an angsty Anakin who suddenly killed his closest friends in the span of a few hours because of some vague vision. Not, the type of person that you can have a philosophical debate with. We also see some hints of hypocrisy in Windu's attempted murder of a helpless Palpatine despite Anakin earlier telling us that it was against the code to that. The ordering of clone slaves to serve as your expendable troops was also morally questionable. The reasons are blatantly called to question in the movies but they are there.

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>>51225769
The Clone Wars show also had it's moments, with Ashoka losing her trust in the council, Windu claiming that her being framed and having the council not have her back was a "test", Yoda realizing that the Sith had already won the war by the very fact that Jedi were fighting in it. Jedi weren't meant to be generals, being a soldier requires moral compromises, and being subservient to a government body while being asked to do things beyond the Jedi code. That's what made Palpatine so brilliant, defeating the Jedi physically was only the first step. He forced them into a situation where they all potentially could fall to the dark side and defeated theme philosophically. Their mistake was that they were subservient to a Government ran by a Sith Lord from the very beginning and they were never in a position to do anything about it without breaking the Jedi code. It was a win win for him.

>>51224269
> Qui-Gon was actually on not that good terms with the Council and skirted by the edge of what was deemed acceptable by jedi

Not exactly. The individual members of the council really liked him. Their beef with him was on a professional level, because he had a tendency to just do what he thought was right and the Council was stuck cleaning up the political fallout so that the Republic didn't get pissed. Basically they were his boss, and while they thought he was cool, he also had a habit of making trouble with THEIR boss.

>>51200425

Something just never really struck me right with Maul. Even though he kills 1/2 of everybody important to Obi-Wan and does plenty of nasty stuff like take over Mandelore, he doesn't seem to be evil the the same way that Sideous is, he doesn't even seem to be as evil as Vader. Perhaps it's the fact that his entire drive towards all his actions are vengeance against precived wrongs? That, and he had a family which he cared about to the point that he bent the Sith's teachings in order to make it work, in a way that didn't feel stilted like Anakin and Padame.

Even though he's probably gonna die to Obi-Wan, part of me wants to see him become redeemed, even if it's in death.

>>51225792
That's really just the post-reformation Jedi Order. The old school Jedi Lords from the Army of Light were very effective soldiers, much more so than the Sith ever were. And in the end, that's why they won the New Sith War. The Jedi were willing to die to take an objective, or for the sake of saving another. The Sith weren't. Laying down your life for someone else's sake was just totally alien to them. If anything, the Sith deal with the politics of peace far better than the sacrifices of war.

When the Jedi and Sith have met in actual military conflicts, the Jedi have won every time. Sure, they're not as good at moral compromises, but they are much better at sacrifice, and in the end the willingness to sacrifice in the name of your cause is more important. Sure, you might not be willing to do something like torture innocent people, but instead you gain the ability to trust that the person next to you will lay down his life for you just as you would for him.

>>51226208
Why doesn't kill himself? he started all by killing Quigon, Obi-Wan was just doing what Maul thinks is right, getting his revenge.

>>51227494
Like all evil dudes he thinks the "being right, justified and legitimated" only applies to him.

>>51201720
>in the old EU
I'm sorry you read that shit anon

>>51228303
>He thinks Disney is doing better
I guess you aren't reading and watching the new canon then

Is the comics about the dark side empire (before Jedi even existed) travelling in giant d8s and using "Force sabers" and Jedi being created to fight them still canon?

>>51228672

No. None of the comics from before 2014 are canon. None of the books are, either.

>>51228738
This, it came slightly after Disney bought SW but before Disney settled the new canon, it got axed.

>>51228738
>>51228779

Actually, to clarify, the only pre-2015 comic that is still canon is Darth Maul: Son of Dathomir; and that's only because it's a direct adaptation of a story arc planned for The Clone Wars before it was shut down.

>>51228555
The Force Awakens was shit, Rogue One was good. The writing in the EU was almost universally terrible and the writing and most acting performances in the movies are very amateurish once you take off the nostalgia goggles. In fact, I'd say A New Hope wasn't any better than The Force Awakens, with the exception of a more compelling antagonist.

>>51229157

The new EU is still mostly bad, although A New Dawn and Tarkin gave us a very good start before it all went to hell.

One problem with the new EU is that there's no interconnectedness. Every novel stands alone, spaced out from everything else to make sure nothing touches anything else, to make sure everything is a viable entry point for a newbie.

>>51228672
>>51228738
As I said before the Star Wars series is canon and is using tons of content from the KotOR games. Ergo making KotOR canon without yet making the stupid MMO canon.

>>51233480

No, that's not how it works.

KOTOR is still Legends. Canon material can refernece KOTOR as much as it likes, but only the parts mentioned in the canon material will actually be canon.

Imagine a non-canon story with Princess Leia. Leia would still be canon, even if the story isn't. In this analogy, KOTOR is the story, stuff referenced in new canon stuff is Princess Leia.

>>51233912
Not yet ! My hope is that they keep using more KotOR references until it becomes actuall canon more or less.
The creators did want to add Revan one episode and have already referenced a good deal of planets from the game.
One can not forget that Mandalorians have become almost fully fleshed out because of the series.

Star Wars has always had the "too many cooks" problem, same as any extensive setting in which more than one or two writers, or perhaps an organised writing team, have had input. You end up with wild inconsistencies in tone, tech-level, species etc etc to the point of becoming the Forgotten Realms of sci-fi fantasy.

>>51234856
Sounds a lot like 40k

>>51234856
Thats true even within the movies
Especially when you compare basic stuff, like Blaster Lethality.

>>51200425
>trying to make KotOR canon
I don't I was hoping to cover NEW ground. Not that I didn't like that stuff (which I did! Had my favorite character in all of starwars!) but rehashing old stuff is a great way to go stale.

Wasn't aware that the 3d shows were canon. Most everything I've seen of Clone Wars is hto garbage. Rebels has been alright from what I've seen- some characters are a little mary suey in my opinion but it's written well enough to enjoy.

>>51238238
Yeah, sabercopters are some tigh writing stuff

>>51200425
This question has come up many times in the /swg/ to the point where it's been codified.

Here's the explanation: Yes, you can use your Negative emotions to fuel your Force abilities. It's generally not a good idea for the same reason that doing something when you're pissed off isn't a good idea. I know that I've said and done things when I was angry that I regretted much later. The effects are amplified when you use the Force.

Falling to the Dark Side involves becoming Completely Ruled by Your Anger/Hate/Suffering. To the point where you can't feel anything else. Vader was a constant ball of pain, anger and Self-Hatred.

>>51238238

When they did the canon re-organization, they threw out everything but episodes I-VI, the Clone Wars movie, and the CG Clone Wars show. The comic Darth Maul: Son of Dathomir and the later Clone Wars story reels were counted as episodes of the show, making them canon.

So those were the only survivors, everything else was thrown away. Since then, new stuff has been released that is canon. The dividing lines are these:

Star Wars: Rebels is canon. All subsequent TV projects are expected to be canon.

A New Dawn was the first canon novel, and all subsequent novels have been canon.

Rise of the Rebels was the first canon young reader book (being an adaptation of Spark of Rebellion). Ezra's Gamble was the first canon young reader book to have actually new content. All subsequent young reader books have been canon.

Marvel Star Wars 2015 was the first canon comic (other than Son of Dathomir), and all subsequent comics have been canon.

Blade Squadron, from Star Wars Insider issues 149 and 150, was the first canon short story, and all subsequent short stories have been canon.

All video games have been weird what-if things so far and are largely story-free, so they're weird. Starting with Star Wars: Commander, everything that appears in them is at least canon as existing in that time period, even if story isn't really a consideration yet. There may be future story-oriented games. The one big exception: The Old Republic, despite still releasing new content, is firmly non-canon.

>>51239090

Oh and of course all the new movies are canon.

>>51239090
>The Old Republic, despite still releasing new content, is firmly non-canon.

Which is great. That game is hands down Bioware shitting on their old jewel KotOR instead of doing a third game.

>>51201803
>once it blows up in its first day treat it as a pocket change makes no sense.

Because its primary purpose was successful.

>>51201803

I've heard something about Starkiller Base being a project that was already well under way in the days of the Empire. I don't know the source.

Apparently the Death Star may not have been intended to be a one-time thing, and from what we saw of Malachor in Rebels, it looks like kyber-powered superlaser planets are actually lost ancient tech, not necessarily advanced tech.

When and where was the first time that the term Sith appeared in Star Wars? I don't remember the term during the original trilogy.

>>51240510

The novelization of A New Hope, released in 1976 -- BEFORE the movie -- refers to Vader as the Dark Lord of the Sith in a few places.

It wasn't until the Tales of the Jedi comics came out in 1996 that we finally had an idea of what Sith was supposed to mean.

It wasn't until The Phantom Menace that we finally had an idea what their deal was in the movie era rather than the distant past of Tales of the Jedi.

>>51240568

>Tales of the Jedi comics came out in 1996

Correction, the first arc started in 1993, they just didn't get around to the Sith Empire until 1996, but the Sith got some development even in earlier arcs.

>>51240568
I think Phantom Menace novelisation also referenced Darth Big Guy as the originator of the current Sith, which is why he carried over into Canon later

>>51202729
Cade was the protagonist of Legacy, and yet, ironically, the worst part by far.

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>>51240969

Darth Bane was fully canonized thanks to The Clone Wars actually. Yoda encounters an illusion of his ghost.

Darth Bane was Lucas's idea originally, and was going to be mentioned in The Phantom Menace, but the lines were cut. That's why they're in the novel. They redesigned the character for The Clone Wars. I imagine they were also planning to revamp his story with Lucas's direct influence.

>>51241716
Honestly, I prefer the Knight and Samurai look they're going with for the old republic era.

I liked some of the EU aesthetics, like Mandalorians being fully armoured to contrast their strike plate style modern look, which was a good mirror of historical armour evolution, but a lot of it was practically indistinguishable from the Prequels.

>>51241716
His story differs a little from old EU
He realizes that a lot of sith was a mistake AFTER the Jedi purges all of them but him.
He comes up with the rule of two.
Jedi discover his presence somehow and kill him.
Jokes on them he already formed an unknown apprentice.

Less badass overall.

What I don't understand is how did his corpse end on Moraband (Korriban) buried in a Sith temple? were the Jedi so nice to do it?

>>51238089
Yeah, that's true aswell. Doesn't help that Lucas seems to be creatively schizophrenic.

>>51200514
Wait, they brought Thrawn in?

>>51243761
Where have you been? He's been advertised all over the place since last summer.

>>51221083
Doesn't Rebels take place long before Thrawn would have ysalamiri anyways, though?
He wasn't able to acquire them until well after the Empire had been defeated, after all.

>>51244695
He doesn't acquire them until sometime after RotJ, yes - but Dave Filoni (showrunner on TCW and Rebels and all but officially the fifth member of the Lucasfilm Story Group, being George's padawan) has made it abundantly clear that there are no ysalamiri in canon. There are statues that Thrawn has in his office that are references to them, but that's as close to canon as the lizards are going to come.

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>>51241948
>I liked some of the EU aesthetics, like Mandalorians being fully armoured to contrast their strike plate style modern look, which was a good mirror of historical armour evolution, but a lot of it was practically indistinguishable from the Prequels.
Are you talking about KOTOR or Tales of the Jedi? Because they are very different for things taking place so close to each other. (about 50 years iirc)