>Fuck dude they found us, the gig is actually up EMRAKUL

Rip grave troll be will be missed

>Reflector Mage is banned instead of Gideon
WotC what are you guys doing

>>51114323
Will it?

>>51114323
I didn't even realise he got unbanned

>>51114188
>jace still banned
i can't play modern when it's like this

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I just bought a playset. What do?

>>51114404
turns out wizards was right to ban the guy right from the start of modern.

>>51114188
>3 fucking card banned in standard
That's what happen when you want a low powered standard.

>>51114742
You know what to do.

>>51114347

No its not

>>51114971

Fuck I'm stupid, disregard

>>51114742
Save them for Frontier in case it takes off. You're not going to sell them without a big loss anyway.

>>51114188

Haha get fucked marvel decks

>>51114742
I just sold a playset (last friday) via mail. Get over it

>>51114857
Kamigawa-ravnica and odyssey onslaught were both very low powered.
Wizards just has 0 idea how to balance a format now that they've killed almost every archetype. Not surprising.

>>51114839
>implying grave troll was the problem
>implying it didn't get axed because of the prejudice towards dredge

>>51115482
Marvel's just going to cast Ulamog and World Breaker. Losing Emrakul doesn't hurt it at all.

>>51114188

>tfw bought copters last friday.

Still I'm pissed they have gotten rid of copter but left Gideon.

>>51115654
They want you to buy on the gideons instead of relying on playing with 10buck rares, go on and buy your playset of $35 gideons :^)

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>>51114323

That's what happens when you fuck with Mark "The Rocket Man" Rosewater. You get a banhammer shoved up your ass... twice.

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>just completed Dredge

Decks killed by bans:

U/W flash
B/R Aggro

Decks hurt by bans:

G/B delirium
R/W Vehicles (they get the new 3/5 lifelinking airship or hear of kiran)

Decks that don't give a fuck about bans:

Fucking marvel.

>>51115834
You're fine, replace the Troll with the other high Dredge card. Troll just made it slightly more likely to hit Amalgam and Narcomoebia.

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>>51114188
>Dredge piece banned because its game 1 is too good and fast and sideboard cards are too effective against it
>Affinity is cool tho lol

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>>51115834
>Got a set of trolls
>Only use them for EDH
Life is good

maybe i can play spirits again now that the best decks arent jamming 2/3 fliers or lilianas?

>>51115977

Expect playsets of lilianas and Gideons now.

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We interrupt this thread to WITNESS:

>>51111111
WITNESSED!

>>51115946
it's like they decided to just go ahead and confirm their bias.

>>51115834
Just replace them with thugs. Slightly less powerful but the deck remains 100% functional

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>>51115834
>Opened some new phyrexia last week and literally whiffed on everything except for a few non-foil and foil g probes

>>51114188
Nobody in my meta played emrakul so this does not affect me much but im glad to see the copter go and i suppose reflector was a little op.
Mad that gideon is still legal though

>modern
>git probe
Fuck

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>tfw you just bought Looter Scooters and Gitaxian Probes

>>51116238
Probe is a mistake of tcg design

>a 2/3 creature that bounces for 3 mana is banned in standard for being too overpowered

KEK

Standard AKA midrange the tappening is a joke

>>51115834

Dredge will be fine. It was a semi-powerful deck before GGT got unbanned, then in picked up a few new tools after the unbanning which made it super strong. People may start packing less hate, in which case your overall win percentage might not change much at all.

>>51114188

The sales must be fucking abysmal for them to do that.

Instead, why not remove the Reserved List and empower the eternal formats and make bank selling singles themselves?

>Ban Reflector Mage
>Spellqueller still going strong

Fuck this nonsense.

>>51116360

>singles

All they needed to do is Eternal Masters Core set sold for a normal price.

>>51115553
>>51115654
So where'd you two meet?

>>51116360
I completely agree with you but you fags seriously need to shut the fuck up for once about removing the reserve list

>>51115562
I blame the fact that they're trying to make standard low powered (Their article contains a sentence to the effect of "We want to make standard about vehicles and sorcery speed removal) but they can't make the special needs playground because they have to have at least one or two cards for modern and legacy each block, and it turns out those usually end up dominating the format

>>51116310
Man o' war would have been fine, it's the fact that it gets that card (and any other copies you may have) stuck for a turn which leads to clogged hands and "unfun" stale gameplay.

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Hey guys, Liliana and Nissa aren't being played enough. Also our friends at SCG are pretty mad that Chandra didn't live up her hype. Not to mention guys from marketing division asked us to provide a viable superfriends deck. What should we do?

New players love gay... Gatewatch and should be exposed to cards that depict them even more.

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>>51114188
More like Imprisoned in the Banlist, amirite?

>>51116475
I took that sentence to mean more we want to push planeswalkers
The copter did need to go though so i cannot complain.
I literaly never saw emrakul being played though did something in kaladesh make him a beast i missed a lot of fnms lately.

>>51116482
I don't think this really saves New Chandra, who is still utterly weak as fuck despite "LOL FOUR ABILITES DOE!"

none of those abilities make any real impact the turn you play her (and possibly ever)

Red aggro sure as fuck didn't need a turn 4 flame slash, or a turn 4 ramp spell, or a turn 4 "take 2 damage" so justifying her existence in that is hilarious.

midrange has far better walkers that do far better things and then they don't have to play fucking red, the worst color in standard.

WoTC screwed the pooch on her and it was "her block" no less, Pia Nalaar sees more play.

>>51116544
They forgot they printed a one mana tutor for emrakul in the previous set.

>>51115900
Naw they lost Emrakul but they may start to run Kozilek

>>51116544
I took it as that too, but the fact that they flat out stated "We want standard to be about objectively bad creatures and shitty removoal" Kinda overshadows something we've known for about a year

>>51116482
I know! Ban a reasonably powerful uncommon that really wasn't oppressive at all. the only cards that should be powerful enough for standard are Mythic Rare (TM) planeswalkers!

>>51116412
>via mail

The post office?

>>51116599
Well yes but thats at odds with the good removal in aether revolt

>>51116574

Kozilek has no protection.

>>51116626
>eldrazi
>no painlands for <>

>>51116901
>aether hub
>Spire of Industry

Life finds a way

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>this guy is going to show up as a 4-of in every deck

But I guess they can't ban Gideon because he's the face of the game

>>51116599
There used to be good answers for good threats.

Now there are only good threats. This is why you see these Standard bans (the Modern bans are fine and actually make sense).

It seems a bit odd with Copter - a lot of new answers for that are in AER. Oh well, thanks for Fatal Push, Mr. Copter.

>>51117034
>this guy is going to show up as a 4-of in every deck

What exactly makes it that Gideon is going to get even better and show up in more decks?

>>51117044
>There used to be good answers for good threats.
>Now there are only good threats
this, this so hard it hurts
Easy litmus test to see if a set will be shit or not is how many common removal spells there are for 3 or less.

>>51117066
>Heart of Kiran
>no Copter

Copters everywhere helped keep Planeswalkers down. Now Superfriends can play Heart of Kiran on 2, Nissa on 3 and Gideon on 4 and there isn't much to stop them

>>51117044
Yup. They systematically executed all the good removal from standard, so nowadays we're overjoyed if we see a doom blade as an uncommon, when it used to be a common in pretty much every core set.

>>51115900
Incorrect
While gb was hit harder by the emrakul ban marvel will still suffer

The problem was that they got to cheat out emrakul then get rid of any possible threats or answers the enemy had for it by taking their turn

Meaning that the only way to get around it was to then top deck an answer or have a fumigate.

Now at least they still don't know what is in your hand and you can play the ambush game with answers to the other titans

>>51117044
It is weird yeah.
The copter was a problem but will it really be a problem come aether revolt.

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>Gitaxian probe banned
>Em banned
They actually did it the absolute madmen.
>mfw half of the people at my lgs run marvel

>>51116886
I'm sorry, remind me again what Kozilek's second ability reads?

>>51117238
Menace
And its 3rd ability is inconsistent as hell

The only ban I would slightly question is Smuggler's Copter. Emrakul pretty obviously merited a ban, and I don't really give a shit about Reflector Mage, it was a dumb card and banning it was a good way to handicap UW. My thing with Copter is that I wish they would have taken another few months to see how it would play with Fatal Push in the format and whether it would still be equally dominant. But on the whole, I can't say it was totally a wrong decision.

Probe was something I really wanted them to ban in Modern and you can't get mad about GGT getting banned I don't think. I hope they'll consider taking a look at Mox Opal and consider a few unbannings (mostly BBE and Preordain) at their next window but I'm pretty satisfied with what this.

it's frustrating to fuck with the whole standard format so dramatically, but at the end of the day, I think these bans probably improved the formats we're talking about here, so I can't be too mad about it

>>51116475
They said they wanted those things to be viable, not that they wanted standard to be about those things. That's a completely different argument and a much more valid one. It's essentially the same point that people have been making about the lack of diversity in standard for a couple months now.

>>51116438
>muh enforced collector's value

>>51116438
>shut the fuck up for once about removing the reserve list
never. the reserved list is idiotic and I'll will keep bitching about it until I or it dies.

>>51117267
>Menace
Fuck, got me there.

Still though, the deck runs a gamut of 1-4 cmc spells, which are the key converted mana costs you need to protect him. Not to mention drawing up to seven cards isn't bad at all. It's not as good as OG Kozilek, don't get me wrong, but I think he has a place as a one-of against the mirror, and possibly control decks.

>>51117340
if you actually cared you would spend time bitching somewhere where you could possibly make a difference

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It confuses me that wizards doesn't want to abolish the reserved list because it'll hurt investors and collectors from all the money they put into cards, but it's okay to ban cards from formats where people spend hundreds to get a deck that is viable and then all that hard work and money get trashed by a banlist. And they're the ones who play the damn game anyways.

>>51117361
can you prove that I don't? also, WotC browses /tg/, as evidenced by the many mechanics stolen from custom cards threads.

the one thing that's annoying about this is that they finally printed an instant-speed answer to a stupid card that was dominating standard. and then they banned the card that was dominating standard, and the answer doesn't actually hit any of its likely replacements (Felidar Guardian & Aethersphere Harverster) (unless you can consistently activate revolt at instant speed i guess)

Emrakul probably won't matter much. Decks running it can switch to Ulamog.

Copter is justifiable since it was a new card type that they didn't really know the power of and fit into literally any creature deck.

Mage seems unnecessary, honestly. Strange it's only getting hit now after Coco was gone, when Coco never got banned.

Probe was a mistake, so it's fair game to get banned.

GGT will be replaced with Thug and life will continue for Dredge.

>>51117044
Somebody should ask MaRo if the need to ban those cards don't show that right now standard had become way too much low powered.

How can Ken Nagle not look like a complete retard every single time a banning comes around?

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>>51114742
>I just bought a playset. What do?

:^)

Don't actually do this

>>51117592
kek, fucking goofers

>>51117560
>Ken Nagle

how often does this happen?

>>51114188
fucking finally

i mean it probably wont save standard because most people have moved to other formats but in a year or two standard might start gaining traction again

>>51116360
>make bank selling singles themselves?

for the millionth time, Wizards can't sell singles without opening themselves to legal hell.

For a start, booster backs would be facing classification as gambling in many states.

>>51117532
Wouldnt probe just get replaced with peek?

I mean it'd only one mana of difference, also instant speed

>>51117668
the entire reason probe is played is because it costs no mana

>>51117668
the one mana difference is a massive gaping chasm

especially in extremely low-to-the-ground low-mana super aggro decks IE the ones that play Probe

>>51117694
you cost no mana
but you don't cantrip

>>51117592
Lol

>>51117130

Aslo - oath of Ajani, just not to run out of loyalty counters.

>>51117592
Is that any good?

>>51117668

World of difference between 0 and 1 mana. Mutagenic Growth, Noxious Revival, and Gut Shot are all closer as replacements, but none of them cantrip.

>>51117457
>What is Evolving Wilds

>>51117700
Then ban aggro?

>>51116475
No, they want to make standard more about planeswalker.

>>51117913
Yeah but thats no use on turn 1
Though i suppose you dont need the revolt on turn one

>>51117881
So instant speed doesn't matter at all?


I mean you can just drop it during your opponent's end step. It wouldn't be great if you drew several of them but its not nothing.

>>51114839

GGT was fine until Cathartic/Amalgam. Cathartic may as well have almost been a 2 mana reverse Bazaar of Baghdad in some cases.

>>51115834
>can now build manaless dredge for legacy even cheaper

I ain't even mad.

>>51114971
Reflector Mage is indeed banned starting at the 20th

>>51117668

In all likelihood it will get replaced with Mishra's Bauble and drive the price of that card up even more stupidly.

>Gitaxian Probe banned

Really?

>>51116482
Make Nissa and Chandra gay for each other, it'd finally give some inkling of a character to Nissa.

>>51116310
Didn't people describe it as frustrating or something? Can't have new players being exposed to unfun mechanics, might drive them away from the game.

>>51118054
>Bauble
>Anywhere near as good

>>51116360
because magic almost died when they crashed cardprices the last time, which led to the creation of the reserved list

Why was reflector mage banned over spell queller?

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>>51118070
really really

>>51118085
>because magic almost died when they crashed cardprices the last time
Which was over 20 years ago. Wotc hardly makes any money off of those kinds of people anymore anyway.

The reserved list only exists for a small handful of people to jerk off to the price of cards they'll never actually put on the market.

I was hoping (((Shkreli))) would keep on buying shit from the reserved list to stop them from being retarded.

>>51118084

It's your best Delve fodder replacement for G probe at this time. You won't see their hand but only their top card and this is as best you can get for 0 mana for a replacement.

>>51118085

It never "almost died" just a bunch of people complained about reprints in limited run sets at the time.

>>51118118
I really would rather play Peek

>b-b-but muh mana!

I'll make it work

>>51118085
>citation needed
Besides that was 2 decades ago

>>51118143

Well if you really want to have hand information being more important then sure I guess. I don't exactly fault that line of thinking because it's a valid argument.

>>51118113
Just imagine if wizards were to ban the reserved list. :^)

>>51118143
what deck are you playing Peek in where you don't need to be spending your mana on other things on turns 1-3

Like, are you really going to be out here playing Peek in Infect? Death's Shadow?

>>51118186
Just imagine if Wizards were to reserve the banlist. (^:

>>51117913
Obviously it's not impossible to get revolt at instant speed in standard, but it seems difficult to the point where you don't want to rely on consistently having it, even with Wilds

>>51118195
Infect
Im too broke for baubles
Of course I can also try serum visions but I would rather get hand info at 1CMC.

>>51116318
It was nonexistent in the form of Dredgevine before GGT got unbanned, what are you smoking?

But yeah Neonate, Cathartic and Amalgam will keep the deck running fine.

>>51118236

If you're too broke for Baubles i'd up the Infect creature count.

>>51117395
Legacy/Vintage are unofficially unsupported formats, there is not need to stir the pot regarding the reserve list because Wizards doesn't care.

Reprints happen but are meticulously controlled to achieve max sales. Lili of the Veil and Damnation could both sell entire sets by themselves, but it doesn't make sense to put them both in the same set simultaneously. Just look how some of the lowest power level sets in recent years are propped up with ghost rares of super valuable cards. You can even see it in the difference between the quality of masterpieces in Kaladesh vs. Aether Revolt. Revolt is looking to be a much stronger (IE Sellable) set and thus doesn't need Masterpieces like Crucible to aid it's sales.

>>51116901
>tfw there will never be a U-colorless-X control deck with kozilek and blighted cataract
It hurts every time I think about it. I want to play blighted cataract so badly

>>51114404
>I didn't even realise he got unbanned
Do you even play Modern?

>>51115946
Affinity hasn't put up results in a long time

>>51117130
heart of kiran is not the same as copter. HoK has an actual deckbuilding constraint in that crew 3 for a 4 power vehicle is garbage, so HoK is trash if youre not slapping down planeswalkers.

copter had no deckbuilding constraint, an on-curve body, and a relevant ability so it went in literally every aggressive deck.

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>>51117455
>WotC browses /tg/, as evidenced by the many mechanics stolen from custom cards threads.
>anon actually believes this

>>51118478

>HoK has an actual deckbuilding constraint in that crew 3 for a 4 power vehicle is garbage

>implying anyone is going to crew him by a creature

This shit goes straight into mythicsuperfriends.dek™

I'm looking forward to playing Standard now at least, that's something. Thanks for doing something right MaRo

How much better did grixis control get with these bans?

>reflector mage

literally why? it isnt even the best card in uw flash

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>out of the T4 em into the superfriends deck.
I honestly don't know what will be worse. Like shit, at least Aetherworks could end the game in a timely manner. Playing against a walker deck is sheer suffering.

>>51118080
I have good news for you...

>>51118869
ya im pretty afraid this is basically going to be the new marvel deck now that it doesnt have to worry about turn 4 emmy or copter to stop it

>>51118845
Word on the street is it's broken in the new saheeli twin deck

>>51118867

Everybody hates it.

>>51118897
Unless I missed something in the past 2 UR they aren't canonically gay, just vaguely romantic

>>51118901
n e g a t e
e
g
a
t
e

>>51118634
Yes, it does. But that is one deck, copter went into EVERY deck.

>>51118634
filling your deck with planeswalkers is, in fact, a deckbuilding constraint. I'm really not risking anything saying this on this vietnamese calligraphy board, but please believe me and save your money when I say that a superfriends deck will never ever be reliably standard viable

>>51118921
Chandra is clearly bi, and anything goes for elves.

>>51118869
It might not be that bad. Walkers superfriends might end up being the resting place for Crazy Cat Lady combo, which can kill on t4 just as well.

>>51119026
>Crazy Cat Lady Combo

Can we please push this as the deck name? If just because WotC will have to make the effort to censor it at the PT so it doesn't offend tumblr.

>>51119150
Copy Cat is more succinct and rolls off the tongue better

>>51118425
Urza's lands, dude. Make it happen.

>>51119150

It's either copy cat or crazy cat lady and most seem to prefer crazy cat lady because it's a better name.

>>51119026
if you put the combo into a random superfriends deck, youre just going to half-ass it. you either do superfriends with oath of nissa and heart of kiran and etc or you play sorcery-twin with counterspells and card draw

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>>51118908
>grixis control is broken in the new saheeli twin deck

>>51119170
and more accurate

>>51119300
How many superfriends decks actually run all of the oaths?

Ajani's definitely seems like it'll get played

>>51119335
I believe oath of ajani is actually a trap. The two halves of the card pull you in two entirely different directions such that in a standard deck, you're really only utilizing one half of the card in any given game.

>>51119170
I disagree. Crazy Cat Lady is a much better name.

>>51119451
Well you have shit taste in deck names then

>>51117643
Arent they just collectible lottery tickets for nerds right now anyway?

>>51117643
>For a start, booster backs would be facing classification as gambling in many states.
Right because a tcg is gambling but literal lottery tickets aren't.

>>51119460
No reason to act like a dick anon, we can disagree with each other without shit flinging.

>>51119483
not him, but
>copy cat
the deck copies the cat beast, literally copy cat
already an established phrase
>crazy cat lady combo
what part of it is crazy
four words < two words
implying a pajeet can be ladylike in any way

you can call it what you want but i prefer copy cat

>>51117044
Its about variance, if a vard is that dominant and fits in every archetype with no color restriction then it comes down to who draws more of them first.

I want a sad music video with GGT similar to the Twin ban one

>>51119564
Four words are actually greater than two words.

>>51119564
>A lady with a gorillion cats
Both names check out anon. Use whatever you want. Doesn't matter; it's a shit deck in a format where Declaration in Stone is relevant again.

>>51119564
Crazy Cat Lady is also an established phrase. Copy cat sounds like it is the name of a card rather than a combo, crazy cat lady is also a bit humorous.

>>51119482
Not every MTG player is a 30 year-old neckbeard. A lot of high school kids play the game, and reclassifying would put an age restriction on buying boosters.

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>>51114188
Redpill me, /tg/, I stopped playing after Caw-Blade Standard. How did this deck compare to it?

The consensus was that the Caw-Blade deck didn't 'feel' unfair in the sense that you get hit for 13 and lose the game, but had insane consistency and always found the path to victory.

>>51119608 here
Just re-read Saheeli, didn't realize she granted haste to the tokens, could work. Still doesn't have the tempo shell that Twin did.

>>51116479
That's my point.

It's only really that effective because everyone plays memerange

If there were more control decks, combo decks and even burn decks then Reflector Mage wouldn't be as big of an issue as it is. The fact that the entire meta game is entirely composed of play the best creature on curve every turn, then yeah Man'o'War + upside becomes nuts.

I really hope WotC look at this ban as "this card is only that good because we fucked up standard so hard"

>>51119608
>let me just dec in stone your million haste cats that exile themselves at eot

fucking brilliant anon

>>51119593
well fuck you got me there

>>51119624
>about 54 jtms
what the heck who is this picture even

Wizards once again proving they can't balance their own game

>>51115348
>Frontier
What's that?

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>>51119684

>>51119624
They arent close, emerakul just throws away the magic game that happened and rapes your hand of answers. If there was real removal this wouldnt have gotten banned because stasis snare exists but when thats the only answer you are simply sol. Also summary dismissal being 4 mana instead of 3 and another payment didnt help.

>>51114188
>Smuggler's copter banned
don't know what the fuck they were thinking when they made that card anyways

>>51119715
yeah that's fine i don't give a fuck that's just a pile of expensive cards, but 50+ of the same card is unusual

>>51119719
>rapes your head of answers

>>51119719
>Also summary dismissal being 4 mana instead of 3 and another payment didnt help.
Fucking this. Bugs me so much. Even 2 mana with a build-around-me downside would be fine.

>>51119733
"Please play my new card type so I don't get fired. The last couple mechanics I've made haven't worked out so good."

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>>51119753

>>51119753
In lore jace was just fine, in print blue is the shittiest color that's barely a support color at best. Wotc fucked this up and is pretending its the effect that is too strong when it's the answers that are too weak.

>>51119697
>What's that?
New format people are starting to talk about. Seems interesting to some, others see it as a scam. Mileage may vary, but there's no official word from Wizards yet.

>these extremely casual bans
Oh look, objectively shittier mindslaver, some niche blink tech, and a format ruining staple are banned instead of the 60 dollar 3 drop removal-on-a-stick walker, or the blatantly obvious combo piece walker, or the indestructible 5/5 for 4 walker. It's like balance wasn't the issue at all. Just bring back swords, pongify, bolt, and heroes downfall, then none of this would be an issue.

>>51114188
>Dredge piece banned even though the deck wasn't oppressive in competitive and was easily hated on
>Im assuming just because enough Timmies and pro players cried

Fuck wotc

>>51114188
>>51114742
When will these cards hit their panic bottom for me to buy?

>>51119871
>hit their panic bottom
i see what you did there

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>>51115799
As a jund player: indeed. I'm still mad at the BBE ban in the wake of DRS.

>>51119867
>objectively shittier mindslaver

I'm going to let you just think of how stupid a statement like that is. Would every deck with Numrakul swap to mindslaver if it could?

>>51119867
>3 drop removal-on-a-stick walker, or the blatantly obvious combo piece walker, or the indestructible 5/5 for 4 walker.
>Banning new Planeswalker cards

they'll never ban planeswalker cards again

>>51119869
but anon we don't want decks to warp sideboards in modern. Affinity is totally fine though because of our arbitrary reasons hope you enjoy being out $400 bucks for that unfair dredge deck :^)

>>51119965
Yes, because taking someone else's turn after your turn followed again by your turn seems much better in every possible situation. The point is, people would build around it, and mindslaver is more useful almost always outside of an extremely tailored standard environment.

>>51119335

Ajani's is the second worst Oath after Jace. Bad on turn 2 without any creatures to boost and bad late game when the discount is irrelevant.

The only place to play it is in a token strategy, not a walker one.

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>>51117560

>>51120045

Mindslaver would be shit in the present standard because it's expensive as all hell to play and activate the ability in the same turn. Emrakul's getting the ban hammer because it's coming down T4 on a regular basis thanks to the idiotic decision to have Aetherworks Marvel cast things instead of just putting them into play like almost every other method of cheating fatties out.

>>51120059
j oath was used in starfield decks as a repeatable draw spell
as an oath in superfriends it is no good

>The only place to play it is in a token strategy, not a walker one
voice of zendikar and ally of zendikar both agree with you

>>51117592
THE ABSOLUTE MADMAN

>>51118845
my money isn't on Grixis
why do you want red?
Red was mainly for the removal cards but with things like fatal push and "not" languish you don't really need to splash red anymore

Dimir control is probably where its at
something with new Tez and a bunch of cheap artifacts along with the new dig through time is probably king of control

the only reason I could justify splashing red or white or even green is simply for artifact destruction
but that's honestly it

>>51120378
>the new dig through time

Whaaat

>>51120378
Hah, you think the best colour at artifact destruction gets any playable cards for it?

>>51120378
Given how red has absolutely fuck all for artifact removal, I'd go esper. It enables Gideon and Stasis Snare too if you can manage the WW.

>>51120411
whatever that new thing is
uhhh

Reverse Engineer
with cheap artifacts like

Merchant's Dockhand and Renegade map you can easily get lots of cards up for Improvise and you can also use things like Evolving Wilds, Renegade Map, and the Lotus Petals that Tez makes to trigger Revolt which makes it very strong

>>51120442
this is also pretty good
basically the only reason I want artifact destruction is to deal with Marvel but with Stasis Snare I can just hit the fatties it drops rather than the artifact itself
also with black we can use things like lost legacy so we might have an ok matchup

>>51120378
>removal
Fatal push isn't as good in a format without fetches and not enough consistent ways to trigger revolt. Red removal like bombardment and harnessed can gain value the later the game goes on and kill some pretty big creatures in the case of lightning. As for yahenni's -3/-3 is no where near languish but it's better than radiant flames and it's a little easier on mana too plus cheating something into play.

>>51120790
>Renegade Map
>Evolving Wilds
>Lotus Petals

The Dimir deck can make very good use of Fatal Push

on Turns 1 and 2 you aren't gonna be worried about removing 3 and 4 cost minions but later in the game we have roughly 9 to 10 sources of triggering revolt easily and then we have the trading resources or flipping our things in the ice to return other cards to hand which also enables revolt

just because Fetches are probably the easiest and best way to trigger it that doesn't mean that we can't come up with highly playable and consistent ways to turn it on in standard

We also get Battle at the Bridge which can scale well with Tez and his Lotus Petals
as well as your standard Grasp of Darkness which hits a wide array of creatures in the standard metagame

anything else we have murder

the only problem card I can see here is Ulamog

>>51118143
I remember before twin was banned there were some people playing 1-2 peeks over g probes. the rest of the deck ran at instant speed, made sense to peek at the end of t4, and if nothing's up, combo up.

>>51120862
>the only problem card I can see here is Ulamog
you're in blue i don't see the issue

>>51120862
>evolving wilds
You can only run 4 so and holding up and evolving wilds for revolt is slow as fuck
>tezz lotus petals
relying on a 4 mana walker for removal seems silly to me and youhave to wait till turn 4 to cast him. against an established board that's not going to very good.
>renegade map
needs a turn to come online and has the same problem evolving wilds does except it's even slower.

>battle at the bridge
>sorcery speed removal

>grasp
Can't knock this one

>murder
ok sure

>only problem is ulamog
And the fact that you'll need hard removal for anything over 4cmc or 4 health with that removal suite whereas as I mentioned grixis removal gets better provided you can cast a couple bombardments in the grindier matchups or pump with lightning/glimmer/hub which is much more common.

>>51121184
if people are hard casting it sure its not a threat at all
I am mainly worried about people cheating it out on turn 4 or 5

>>51121195
I think that with enough cards that use Improvise its not the worst thing in the world to leave an evolving wilds uncracked and map on turn one or two isn't that bad you aren't getting killed by any creature on turn 1 or two

battle at the bridge isn't that great yeah I was just trying to think of all the removal spells that might be worthwhile in this kind of setup

also I think people aren't taking new Tez seriously enough
4 mana 5 loyalty with removal built into the kit and a game winning ult in a grindy control deck are quite powerful

If you are gonna go with the energy based red removal I would suggest going Jeskai since you can make better use of powerful white instants with Gearhulk and you get Nahiri
basically if you are gonna play some combination of blue/black you should probably have the new Tez in the deck but Tez doesn't work well with the energy based removal suite

thats my logic anyway

>>51121284
Jeskai and grixis with energy suites are better at doing different things. I mainly like grixis because it's geared towards shitting on aggro but can still keep up with jeskai in terms of versatility.

Reprints suspiciously missing from both KLD and AER.
Crush, Crush, and Crush.

>>51121430
but with Copter gone agro is dead
do they really need to be shit on more?

>>51121433
>implying wizards will ever willingly let red be good in standard.

>>51116049
this.

>>51121433
be thankful you got Shock

>>51121433
dummy

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>>51121453
>do they need to be shit on more
No creature sticks, no spells resolve

no fun allowed

few metagame predictions for post-bannings post-AER standard:

- the best deck is a control deck
- there are still good aggro decks
- the copycat deck is good but not dominant and certainly not format-breaking
- the hypothetical Kiran Superfriends deck is at best fringe playble

>>51121615
I can believe this
I think the best deck will actually still be Marvel though

Turn 4 Ulamog isn't quite as good as turn 4 Emrakul but is still game winning in 9/10 cases

>>51121453
Is aggro dead though? Sure Copter is a hit to consistency with the filtering ability, but I'm confident that something will just be able to fill in the 4 slots. It won't be as good, but the deck will still be solid.

>>51116554
Sometimes I wonder if they actually playtest their cards. Red aggro is struggling hard in standard and things like "do 3 damage for 2 mana at sorcery speed" isn't helping.

>>51118917
Everyone hated collected company and the khans/origins block too. Look what happened to them.

>>51121655
yeah, I think the big difference is that it's a lot harder to have hardcast Ulamog as an alternate gameplan than hardcast Emrakul. but we'll see - Marvel is certainly a powerful effect.

>>51117545
Maro isn't a developer so he wouldn't be able to give an in depth answer even if he was allowed to.

>>51121739
I think there's a real sense in which WotC is banning Emrakul and company because they never banned CoCo. Like, these bans aren't just about the Standard environment, they're also about WotC trying to convince players that Standard is worth playing - and I think the problems they're having there don't just stem form this standard, they stem from the last couple. So it's a bit of a delayed overreaction maybe.

Also, Khans was mostly a dope block from a design perspective, and the standards with Khans and Theros ranged from decent to really good. I don't think Tarkir has been the problem outside of a few dumb development choices. The bigger issue is how much Origins and BFZ/OGW sucked.

>>51121782
they should really have the actual developer blog actually answer questions more frequently

it really is not Good that MaRo feels like the only meaningful line of communication between Wizards and the players wrt R&D

>>51121694
losing a 3/3 flyer that can't be killed by sorcery removal and filters draws is pretty huge for a ton of agro decks

things like B/R agro also completely relied on the discard they got to cheat things like Bloodhall priest onto the field

I would honestly expect G/R to be the premier agro deck since they were one of the few that didn't rely on copter

>>51121694
Lets go over the points on why copter is OP balls even in a aggro mirror.
>if you dont have it you lose to it, MAD
>it effectively cuts the lands out of your deck
>enables madness
>-any- evasion on a 3/3 2 cmc should never exist
>can be crewed by additional pylons to increase toughness against burn spells
>immune to sorcery removal

On the flip side control is getting
>black bolt
>languish with a 4 cmc body
>another sac outlet
>3 effective board clears in BW
>emrakul is gone so your control decks will be unstoppable at the very least once control is gained

Invest in combo decks.

>>51121833
>can be crewed by additional pylots to increase toughness against burn spells
What?

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>>51121914
Welcome to whos rules text is it anyway. I'm your host, Anon.

>>51117395
>doesn't want to abolish the reserved list because it'll hurt investors and collectors from all the money they put into cards
No. They don't want to abolish the reserved list because they don't want to break their promise. That's it. They've already pretty much admitted that the reserved list itself was a kneejerk mistake.

>>51121964
Depala? Or is it Veteran Motorist

As far as standard is concerned, am I the only one that doesn't see anything wrong at all with "pillar" cards that the entire rest of the meta revolves around?

If you can beat it, and lots of decks can, then it's not a balance issue that ban actually has to address.

There's going to be decks that are just worse than other decks, especially your brews.

>>51122042
I think they're bad in two particular cases:

1) they exert such a weight on the format that they make certain strategies or types of cards insanely bad or unplayable. this is copter

2) they're super fucking miserable to play with and against. this is Emrakul and arguably reflector mage.

any format is going to have powerful strategies, but it's an attempt to find a balance

>>51122041
veteran motorist

I wonder how much these standard bans were influenced by them having to backtrack on rotation speed. Reflector Mage in particular seems likely there.

>>51122070

Miserable doesn't constitute a ban, and the new set provided answers for copter.

The reason they banned reflector mage is extremely obvious: casual players don't have very many spell quellers in their decks.

Except bans should not be delivered for casual players.

>>51122091
>banned
>casual
???

>>51119862
>frontier
>new

>>51122091
>Miserable doesn't constitute a ban, and the new set provided answers for copter.

Miserable has not previously constituted a ban. Things seem to be changing.

>The reason they banned reflector mage is extremely obvious: casual players don't have very many spell quellers in their decks.

this seems like nonsense

i don't think the Reflector Mage ban was necessarily logical but what

>>51122127

Casual players still play at your LCS, anon.

Reflector mage was a complete mistake it was a man o war with upside that wasn't realistic. Reflector mage is a card meant to fight the eldrazi menace and sealed himself with emrakul in the ban. He banned himself for us. Reflector mage died to save us from Emrakuls influences.

>>51122091
>Miserable doesn't constitute a ban
Maybe not for Standard, but in every other format it has.

>>51122134

Most bans in most games are just popularity based, not because of real skill despondency. When a ban happens for totally illogical reasons and their entire explanation on their page is "and it was top on the list of annoying cards", then that means they are just listening to popularity.

Ban by voting, not ban for balance.

>>51122209
T. reactive banlists. I'm going to go play EPIC now.

>>51122091

If you have to choose between Spell Queller and Reflector Mage to ban, it's probably better to ban the Mage because it crushes Timmy strategies while Queller crushes Spike strategies.

>>51114188
>they fucking did it
THE ABSOLUTE MADMEN
With NigCopter gone maybe I can run my From Beyond Ramp deck

>>51116483
I lol'd.

>>51118083
I know they say that to much but in this case they are right.
Playing against it is incredibly unfun far more so then any permision deck

>>51121968
This.
Anybody that thinks the reserve list still makes wizards money is in fucking denial they are no happier about the situation then we are.

Hell they dont even try to hide maros dislike of it.

>>51122182
>Reflector mage died to save us from Emrakuls influences.
Was he the hero we needed or the hero we deserved

>>51121823
I think they keep use of the dev blog to a minimum because otherwise it would become to obvious what they are doing with the chase mythics.
Maybe now that they have abandoned chase mythics they will use it more.

>>51122824
More than not wanting to break a promise, there are two factors:
1) The Reserve List was the culmination of a few backroom conversations between a not-so-big WotC and her distributors and vendors. Some of those arguably could be considered a legal promise.
2) The stuff on the list is either powerful in a bad-for-the-health-of-the-game way, or obsolete. No one really wants to use those designs in modern sets.

So no one at Wizards cares to break it enough to justify the associated legal risk & fees. It may be possible to get rid of it, it's just not worth trying.

>>51122996
Fuck you!
I Just want 4 didgeridoos!

>>51123026
Screw your didgeridoos gimme Roc of Kher Ridges.

Shit, I've figured out why Reflector Mage was banned.

It was going to rotate out at Amonkhet before the reversion, right?

Amonkhet has a Relentless Rats style deck. Imagine; getting that hit by Declaration In Stone is unfortunate, but you get clues and keep going the turn after. Reflector Mage would be an instant concession.

>>51122896
I think Maro said that there is no go-to development blog because no-one on development wants to invest the time in making and maintaining an active blog.

>>51124533
Wait when did they change the rotation.

>>51124905
A little bit ago. People got pissed at 18 month rotations and their cards expiring faster, so Wizards went back to 2 year rotations.

>>51124963
Ah yeah that
2 set blocks were a mistake
Or more accuratly ditching core sets was a mistake

>>51118085
That is a myth. What almost killed Magic was shitfests like The Dark, Fallen Empires and Homelands all being released in a little over a year. All Chronicles did was piss off the assholes that were lucky enough to be around for Arabian, Antiquities and Legends. And even then, the real bombs from those sets were not reprinted. Enough with the stupid myth that Chronicles almost killed the game.

>>51124533
So wait, what's the rotation now? Four 2set blocks in standard at once?
All the more time for me to play Jank decks

>>51117592
I like epic

>>51125367
Yeah, rotation happens every fall and blocks rotate in groups of 2. Next rotation is Sept 2017, bye BFZ and SOI blocks.

>>51114188
>dredge ban

enough!
Time to gut maro,the filthy jude

>>51119590
>GGT and sad nazi music, burning germany in the background

I feel like the problem isn't with dredge, but with the quality of answers to dredge. Everything is sideboard material, but absolutely devastating to dredge if it sticks.

If they'd print some less binary answers to dredge, that are also useful against the rest of the format, them GGT could be safely unbanned.

Will Standard UB shine now that Copter, Reflector and Emmy are now banned from the meta?

>>51119590
I cannot find this video you are talking about.
All i can find are a bunch of videos talking about the ban which really should have been done as text instead of video.

>>51126652
>UB Control...
>Last time we saw some UB control doing something was on Lorwyn

Keep dreaming m8, Its either Grixis (yeah, add R to UB actually do something) or just play Marvel.

>>51126734
But we have the tools now. Fatal Push and Yahenni's Expertise can gives us the upperhand against aggro and midrange.

>>51126564
>allowing the white man deck (dredge) to exist
>while maro a jew is alive
Lol

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#FREEREFLECTOR

>>51126734
UB control was a thing at least in ALA-SOM standard and somewhat in ZEN-SOM. There were some decent tools around for the color combination in those days. Cruel control really wasn't a thing at all after Lorwyn rotated out.

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>>51126734
>Last time we saw some UB control doing something was on Lorwyn

UB Control put up multiple PT Top 8s in Theros/Tarkir standard.

>>51121968
then why did they tighten the reserve list by closing the promo loophole?

>>51117044
>There used to be good answers for good threats
And then it was determined that good answers were "an unnecessary constraint on design space" and removed. It's why we will never get lightning strike back in standard.

>>51114188

Standard was good now.

Why did they even make another Emrakul anyway? Jesus.

Copter should have been a 3/2 from the start. It was a mistake.

Reflector Mage is cool but obvious combo bait.

Why don't they just print 5-10 answer cards in these sets. They seem so small and just short of ways to fuck the meme cards. Banning works too but a few decent hate cards existing would have prevented it as a necessity.

>>51127414
Because Aggro must eat ur face, leaving you close to lethal before control can do something.

WotC is pretty dumb at designing sometimes.

>>51118113
they didn't then either. what almost killed the game was players not buying packs because they knew all their cards would be worthless after the next set aggressively reprinted them
>>51118137
dude the company almost went bankrupt from the failed sales

>>51114188
>Emrakul ends the game too quickly
>>In 20% of decks
>Smugglers copter is too widespread
>>In 60% of decks
>Reflector mage is not fun to play against
>>Control needs to be fun to play against

>>51127549
>what almost killed the game was players not buying packs because they knew all their cards would be worthless after the next set aggressively reprinted them
And a situation like that (agressive reprinting of the same costly cards set after set) won't happen again even if you take away the Reserved list.

Literally nothing is lost from letting WotC reprint Black Lotus. The modern casual market won't stop buying packs because some grognard collector lost money sitting on expensive cardboard for 20 years.

>>51126652
Nope. UW Flash just becomes UW Spirits and rapes everything because all it's natural predators (GB Delirium with all the answers, Aetherworks with uncounterable emrakul, RW Cars with a faster clock) just got wiped out of the format.

Way to go wizards. You managed to ban 3 power cards and turn a 4 deck standard into a 1 deck standard. Good fucking job.

>>51127585
>implying GB Delerium is dead because it lost Emmy
The deck will still exist if "Muh UW spirits boogeyman" becomes big BECAUSE GB will predate it.
Aetherworks will still be around, just slamming different titans and RW cars might be weakened but good fucking riddance, copter was an atrocity.

If they printed this, dredge would be fine:

U
Instant
"As an additional cost to cast this, exile three cards from your opponent's graveyard.

Scry 2, then draw a card"

>>51127550
>Standard/Modern
>allowing control to exist
Cast your Serum Visions.

>>51127615
Without Emrakul delirium has no consistent endgame unless you want to try playing fucking world breaker (lol) and aetherworks COULD try ulamog but protection from instants was what really made Emmy a force. Ulamog is too vulnerable.

>>51127699
>but protection from instants was what really made Emmy a force
Then run Kozilek if you want protection.

>Wahh Delirium woill have no lategame!
It's called "Outvaluing your opponent with the rest of your powerful deck that already has a large number of cards that turn into highly cost efficient beaters once you hit delirium and later turns (Flayer, Gnarlwood, Sylvan Advocates) while also having a strong draw enabler (Tireless Tracker) that lets you keep laying on the value.

You can literally just replace Emerakul with some other late-game shit-pusher and call it a day.

>>51127654
If the printed
0
Git fucking good shitter
Artifact
T exile target graveyard

Or maybe...
1
Git even GUTTER cucky bitch
Artifact
T each player exiles a card from grave
1 and sac exile all graves draw one


Will dredge be fair.

Alas if people played the git gud cycle...

>gitaxian probe is banned
FUCKING
FINALLY

OH MY GOD.

>>51127782
>hurr let's make more sideboard tier silver bullets that's what will work!"
No.
What modern needs to make Dredge fair is cards that hurt dredge decks, but are still good against non-dredge decks so you can mainboard them and not feel gimped because you put a 0 cost artifact that reads "T: Do fucking nothing against aggro" in your deck and die to arcbounds reaming your puckered asshole.

>>51127813
>i shuldun hafta side boawd >:
>dwedge is meeeanie mawo heeelp

Cucky shitter memedernette spotted!

>>51127832
>buzzword buzzword buzzword
You sure showed him

>>51126942
I know all this dredge stuff is retarded memeing but you idiots don't make any sense. How can dredge be the white man deck? It breaks the rules of the game (commits crimes) to get stuff for free (stealing) and is generally cheap to build so poor people (minorited) can afford it. If anything it sounds like the anti-/pol/ deck

>>51127832
>>i shuldun hafta side boawd >:
I never said that you meme-spewing retard.
WotC are the ones that said "Dredge is banned because it forces sideboard meta", read the fucking banlist update yourself.

It's clear though you're a mad dredgefag who thinks he's "supreme intelligent" for playing the deck so whatever.

I'll be over here playing Eggs while you sit in the cuck-corner without your precious Grave Troll which you can replace with a slightly less efficient creature and still return 4 amalgams a turn anyway.

>>51127813
How about this:

Dredge Punisher
1R
Creature-???

Whenever a creature an opponent controls enters the battlefield, if it wasn't cast, Dredge Punisher deals (1 or 2) damage to that opponent.

1/3

/////

Burial Customs
1B
(Instant or Sorcery)

Choose one:
-Exile up to (3 to 5) target cards among player's graveyards
-Destroy target creature with power or toughness 1 or less.
-Scry (1 or 2), Draw a card, and lose 1 life

/////

Tidal Reclamation
(U or 1U)
Enchantment

Whenever one or more cards are put into an opponent's graveyard from their library, that player puts that many cards in their graveyard plus (one or two).
U, Sacrifice Tidal Reclamation: Exile all cards from all graveyards. Draw a card.

/////

Twilight Rune
1W

Choose one:
-Exile target creature that entered the battlefield from the graveyard this turn.
-Prevent all but 3 damage that would be dealt by creatures to players.
-Destroy target enchantment

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>>51128289
All of those ideas work. Another good example is pic related, her second ability is "Fuck dredge" but she's still a decent enough creature that she's not a total dead draw maindecked against a not-dredge deck, while a card like Rest In Peace is pure trash unless you silver-bullet someone.

The existence of a viable toolbox style deck would also keep decks like dredge in check by being able to run 1-of solutions to it that they can reliably tutor.

>>51127926
Yeah, the real /pol/ deck is puresteel combo/storm/prowess

>>51128000
You literally said that though, you want them to print grave hate that's useable in your maindeck so that you don't have to side it in.

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>>51128446
No, I said what modern WOULD NEED to make Dredge "fair" in WotC's eyes. Sorry if I was ambiguous.
Like I said I play Eggs, I don't give a flying fuck about dredge and son't have a single sideboard card dedicated to it because it's irrelevant to me.

But keep acting like everyone who isn't a dredge player is a "cucked shitter babyspeaking retard", I'm sure you'll get lots of people agreeing that Grave Troll should be unbanned so you come back to play at their store!

>>51127782
>would a slightly different relic of progenitus make dredge fair

is this memes?

>>51127782
The issue with relic and tormods is that they're sideboard cards. We need a card that is good on its own and incidentally good against dredge. We need drs.

>Banned Smuggler's Copter
thank god, standard decks were literally warped around "do you have it or don't you", and you'd see it tossed into deck types that shouldn't really get a 3/3 for 2 and still perform consistently, that card was a mistake

>Emmy
Pretty glad to see her go too, T4 Mindslaver On A Stick, aka "Surprise! It's HORRIBLE" decks will stick around for some time regardless, but not having the game be a lost cause thanks to that mindslaver trigger is good.

>Reflector Mage
Good, fuck the Flash Faggots deck. While this card was admittedly the least deserving overall, they're printing ANOTHER goddamn WU flying flasher in Aether Revolt and at that point you may as well just get four-ofs of all those fuckers, some Panharmonicons, some Essence Fluxes, and whatever shitty noncreature control you have lying around and call it a deck.
Do I think Reflector Mage was as warping as Looter Scooter or as "fuck you I win" as Emmy?
No.

But I'm glad to see it go.

>>51129083
My mistake, Spire Patrol isn't Flash, it's just another WU spell on a body. Another one.

At least my Brago EDH deck is just rolling in the new cards.

>>51122091
So you're saying everyone not playing UW Flash is a casual shitter?

>>51129329
Bant Aggro with 4 quellers reporting

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> Play Grixis Control
> These changes

Now I don't have to worry about my opening hand nearly as much.

>>51130263
You still need Negate and/or Ceremonious Rejection for Marvel tho.

>>51130316

I have to look at a Marvel deck and see how my tech holds against it. No one at my LGS runs it currently.

>>51130468
T4 Ulamog is probably harder for control to combat than T4 Emrakul.

>>51127549
>what almost killed the game was players not buying packs because they knew all their cards would be worthless after the next set aggressively reprinted them
Are you familiar with the concept of standard?

Or hell the point of this thread, bannings?

(Most) people don't buy cards as an investment you retard.

>>51128947

Are you fucking retarded? He literally was meming about t crypt and relic

>>51131843
>(Most) people don't buy cards as an investment you retard.

This is something that Rudies of the world have trouble grasping: that they're an extremely tiny minority. Vast majority of people who buy Magic product buy it to play with, not to invest in, and care very little about card prices except when they get in the way of playing the game.

>>51114323
>grave troll banned
Banned again?

Not sure how to feel about that (again), it's not like it's completely stopping dredge.

Also, why doesn't WotC care about modern since modern is no longer a thing for them?

>>51127050
that feel when pearl lake ancient and perilous vault

>>51129128
thats a limited creature my dude. I would try lyev skyknight but i wouldn't pay 4 mana for it

>>51117875
yes its quite fun as a draft or sealed thing

>>51130484
Only if they're straight UW. Esper control has anguished unmaking to pick it off, and possibly To the Slaughter as well.

UW does have stasis snare and immolation glare, though that "on attack" trigger makes it a brutal trade.

>>51119617
Copy cat is a phrase too, it refers to someone or something copying something else.