ITT: That book. Post any/all books that invite scorn. Can

>>51009801
You beat me to it, friend. That book was garbage.

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I present to you: the most effective autism siren-call that has ever been put into print in this world or any other. So damaging were its effects that's the hobby is still recovering.

The silver lining is that pathfinder has basically become a huge autism quarantine zone.

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Do you like a foundation of rules bloat that you can build even more rules bloat onto?

>>51010221
Nah, autism is never contained on /tg/. /pfg/ stands for Perverted Fantasy General. It's /d/-lite.

>>51010506
I don't mean the general, I mean the game as a whole

>>51009801
Good thing that book wasn't canon the day after it came out. White wolf murdered that whole book.

>>51010541
I'd love to the know the story of the production behind that thing. The team that put it together was seriously on some kind of retcon power-trip. I mean, it took all the established canon and kind of threw it all out the window for no real narrative reason.

>>51010595
From what IanW posted in the /wodg/ a few years back, basically it was an attempt to make something like the book of vile darkness attempted but failed equally. Was supposed to be this terribly evil thing and it backfired hard.

The V20 version of this book also has the Viscissitude as an evil spirit thing, but it's not so much the same thing. Basically no one knows what the fuck it is and it's possibly the spirit of the discipline that's doing it. But not all Viscissitude users are affected, so it's probably some Umbra/Wyrm shit that's spreading via Viscissitude. There's like 3 theories given in the book.

>>51009801
What is it?

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Enlight make right

>>51010855
You're gonna have to give me some background here, buddy

>>51011093
At least it can be enjoyed ironically, and it gave us "anal circumference."

Now Rahowa, on the other hand...

I'd rather let that die in obscurity.

>>51011093
>>51011126
Then again, it gave us this, for which there is no excuse:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TLlbVW-VA0

It's not even funny as parody. Literally every basement black metal band is better than that fetid pile of shite.

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>>51010460
Why yes I do.

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>>51010855
Blue Rose was touted at the time as the feminist RPG.
Unfortunately, it's setting builds itself on strawmen evil conservative countries besieging the one bastion of tolerant enlightenment. It further digs it's own grave by giving the other countries actual reasons for them adopting the governments it does while blindly highlighting the hypocrisy of the great magical PC nation, which engages in such atrocities as mind rape if you don't share their views.
It's sort of like if tumblr wrote a Chick tract.

>>51009801
Not a WOD player. Mind explaining?

>>51011148
I literally cannot accept the idea that anyone took this seriously

>>51011175
Yes, but why did you post Pokemon?

>>51011175
Err... responding to >>51011077

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>>51009801
the worst part is I actually have a copy of this

>>51011166
I really don't understand why people hate Pathfinder so much

>>51011077
Blue Rose was a True20 game from Green Ronin. True20 basically tried to sorta fix the d20 Licensed Setting problem: Shit doesn't fucking work when you take something that wasn't written as a D&D fantasy and try to make it a D&D setting.
Needless to say, True20 fucking failed, even through it did give us M&M. And Blue Rose was a failure. Ever read Mercedes Lackey? NobleBright, chosen heroes, obvious hero government, excellent characterization (except Talia and Elspeth...)? It tried to create the RPG for that. It fucking failed. Noticing a trend here?
I could make a better Blue Rose game using Exalted.

>>51011273
Mostly because it's pretty bad. It being hailed as the savior of RPGs by some certainly helps though.

>>51011289
I've only ever had fun playing Pathfinder, what makes it "bad" because it's certainly better than a lot of other systems I've played

anon from >>51011279
>>51011175
Is also right. They put so much fucking bullshit into the game to force players to 1) not murderhobo and 2) play for the PC nation. And oh yeah, it was supposed to be the Heralds of Valdemar RPG, but the fact that it had the bullshit got the licensed yanked because Misty has gone murderhoboing herself a few times.

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And might as well contribute.

>>51011353
>supposed to be the Heralds of Valdemar RPG
That sounds pretty cool. I liked the setting. It's been years since I read any of it though. Who is Misty?

But yeah, from the sound of it they failed spectacularly. There are a lot of nations in the setting and they aren't all so hostile that no one could work together for different things. A Rethwellan Mage, Karse Priest (depending on when it's set), and a Herald adventuring for w/e reason sounds fun. Maybe band together to stop the barbarians from invading again or something.

>>51011304
It mostly exasperated the problems of 3.5. The developers had a chance to fix what was inherently wrong with the system, such as balance issues, trap options, and poorly worded rules. They not only ignored these issues, but actively made them worse in some cases.

>>51011547
Misty is Mercedes Lackey's nickname. And she played a lot of AD&D. In fact, she and George Martin got their settings from campaigns set in the same setting: Birthright. Which is the first mention of a throne, named the Iron Throne, forged from the melted down swords of those the first Emperor of a nation had beaten. The Iron Throne features in both Valdemar (an eastern Empire that Baron Valdemar was fleeing) and GoT. Interestingly enough, three uses of a copyrighted material with no attempt to defend the material makes it public domain.

>>51011279
>I could make a better Blue Rose game using Exalted.

Is there something wrong with Exalted or are you just using that as an example?

>>51011273
Because people disliked 3.5 and pathfinder really is just more 3.5. Also due to the unfortunate shit that is paizoland and /pfg/ they have garnered a combined infamy of having perverted weebs as a player base and a group of sycophants as a player base. As with almost any system it can be fun and is considerably more balanced that 3.5 was (still horribly unbalanced, but anything is an improvement over the reign of CoDzillas and fighters only good side being that they make a nice class for monsters with class levels) with the right people and homebrewing. Really, it's just the /tg/ mentality of being only able to either praise a system to high heavens or hate it because X people play it (may it be the autistic weebs who like PF, the autistic weebs who like 4th edition, the autistic weebs and casuals who like 5e, the autistic basement dwellers who like 40k over fantasy battles, the autistic basement grognards who prefer fantasy battle over 40k. The list goes on).

>>51011646
>Misty is her nickname
Alright, I thought so from the context. Just wanted to be sure.

>She and George Martin got their ideas from RPG games
Now that's cool. I've noticed other authors I like did similar, such as Steven Erikson and Ian Cameron Esslemont. The Iron Throne bit is also an interesting fact. You learn something new every day.

>>51011598
Balance issues? I'm not sure what you mean by this. Like martial and magic balancing? Because it's unreasonable to expect a fighter to be as powerful as a wizard past a certain point.

>>51011844
No, it isn't unreasonable for classes of the same level to have a roughly equal level of power. That's the fundamental purpose of a level system.

>>51011680
No, it's that Exalted does the entire CHOSEN PALADINS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS concept much better than any d20 product has ever done (d20 cannot survive role overlap, and Exalted can), and that is what lay at the core of the source material Blue Rose drew from.

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>>51011844
Oh boy, it's that time of night again.

>>51011844
That's nice, kiddo. Remember, it's a school night, so you should probably get to sleep soon. Have mommy make you some warm milk so those bad men on 4chan don't interrupt your beauty sleep.

>>51011273
Sheer autism, mostly.

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This is a tome of utter insanity.

>>51012020
is it a fantasy mash-up of Atlanta and Asia?

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This one was awful.

>>51011186
It added a ton of edgy (even by 90's WoD standards) crap, had some really poorly put together rules (again, even by old standards), and it made a lot of the more interesting stuff in the setting and metaplot non-canon on top of introducing utterly retarded shit like the discipline of Vicissitude not a discipline but actually an alien space virus... Or am evil spirit... Or basically anything other than what it had been before (fleshwarping as taught by one of the worst demons ever.)

>>51012064
No, it's six hundred pages (with no index or table of contents) of one of the worst fantasy heartbreakers out there. It's completely unplayable, and I'm absolutely serious about saying that. The setting is one of the worst I've ever read, but it's buried in the book and hard to find.

I had to homebrew some of the character creation because it's not functional, it has no rules for movement, no rules for range, turbo-Kender, randomised hit locations, no unarmed rules, swingy damage, explosive whips, no sense of balance, and cosmic dragon sex as a existential threat to the world.
I've ran fights in this, and I've had level one characters trip, impale themselves on their weapon, and die in the very first round of combat. It's not even a freak occurrence, it's perfect common for fighters to constantly stumble and injure themselves or destroy their weapon.

>>51011887
While you are correct, don't forget that not all level systems are an exact 1-1 power equivalency for all classes. In AD&D 1e for example, a level 4 magic-user was roughly equivalent to a level 6 or 7 Thief. In cases like these it is not level that all classes are balanced by, but XP total. Almost no popular modern games (barring OSR stuff of course) do this however.

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>>51011967
Getting this booty flustered over a game

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No one has mentioned the one true bait

>>51012188
Even then, gamey systems should attempt to acheive some sense of asymmetrical balance, which 3.x games don't even try.

>>51012262
honestly, that was a concept that came later on when it was realized that imbalance is a deterrent to fun by anyone but people with an autistic level of loyalty to the product.

>>51010221
0/10.
Every game out there has 3rd edition to thank for revitalizing the industry, and it took 2e and modernized the fuck out of it. Its a landmark title that will continue to define the industry, and serves as a corner stone for the best games on the market right now.

>>51011273
Just ignore the trolls. There's a few really obsessed idiots who can't help but get upset about how popular the game they don't like continues to be.

>>51012374
Part of that was the OGL, allowing for a massive flood of licensed products that didn't have to go through the devs. And look at how much crap that produced, like >>51010855

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>>51012420
Hey, DragonMech has giant slave powered orc robots fighting eldritch abominations dragons. Shit was so cash.

>>51012374
Thats a fallacy. Just becasue the game you have a hard-on happened to be the one doesn't mean it couldn't have been something else.

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>>51009801

>>51012451
DragonMech wasn't a licensed product RPG - it was built from the ground up from d20 to showcase SHEER AWESOME.

>>51012221
It's good at what it does : squeezing a little money from autists and triggering people. I don't think it was meant to be anything else than a bait.

>>51012550
amusingly, this could be said about any product based on the d20 system.

>>51012374
>3E
>Revitalizing the Industry

Bullshit. The OGL opened the floodgates to a torrent of horribly designed, poorly playtested shit, based on half-baked ideas that nearly drowned an industry already struggling with the MMORPG craze sucking the playerbase dry.

Really the MMORPG craze is almost entirely to blame for any apparent decline in tabletop gaming during the 2000's. Tabletop gaming's meteoric recovery since circa 2008 is largely due to people finally waking up, realizing that MMORPGs are soul-destroying timesinks and quitting them en masse.

>>51012621
Plus MMORPG's tend to be expensive. That's before you consider materials needed to play. You need a hell of a lot less to run a TTRPG versus playing a MMORPG.

>>51012221
>>51012550

Never heard of it. What makes it so bad?

>>51012166
Where you the anon who ran that tournament with the exploding whip master, and the ring of darkness elf?
That was good stuff.

>>51012757
Its an rpg designed by a literal neo nazi convict.
And nobody has posted the pdf here.

>>51012778
Yes.

I'm planning to do another small tournament soon-ish, but this time with magic users.
I'll just have to figure out the insane magic system first.

>>51012757
>>51012880
More it was written like shit and has a metric fuck ton of stupid rules. Worse than D&D or Shadowrun. Setting is also pretty meh. There was potential but it was unrealized.

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This was supposedly going to be temporary, TSR was gonna do a bunch of books focusing more on the outerplanes and the fall out from this before resetting the status quo in sigil.

Then TSR went bankrupt.

>>51012757

You get a song stuck in your head after seeing it mentioned.

>>51012880
Was he a convict that also happened to be a neo-nazi, or was he convicted of being a neo-nazi? because only one of those is okay.
And in either case, did that bleed into the rules?

>>51013031
He stabbed someone to death and burned down at least one church, I think it was 3 but I don't remember and don't feel like looking it up. That doesn't port over to the RPG from what I've heard though, only the neonaziism.

>>51013061
>burned down at least one church, I think it was 3 but I don't remember and don't feel like looking it up. That doesn't port over to the RPG from what I've heard though

I ended up with a copy of it in my house from a box of gaming books I picked up in a yard sale and a month later a small church model I was making and stored in the same garage as it caught fire.

Now some might blame the faulty wiring in a nearby plug, but I made sure to get rid of the book as soon as possible after that and I never had a problem like that since.

>>51013031
Kristian "Varg" Vikernes is the worst edgelord to come out of Norwegian black metal. Even changed his name to Varg (Wolf) like some furry.
He was convicted for the murder of another guy in the scene. He's a massive vikingfag who hates Christianity, and burnt a total of three churches. One of them a 12th century stave church, to "commemorate" the first Viking raid on England. He's a heathen nationalist inspired by Nazi occultism.

All of these ideals are in his RPG. He describes it as a "role-playing game based on European values, geography, (pre-)history, mythology, traditions and morals, and will offer you the opportunity to play a game in accordance with your own European nature", which means that you get to be perfect not-Vikings and kill comically evil not-Muslims.
But I guess there's a market for it.

>>51013061
>>51013312
For some reason not what I expected, but it sounds like a wet dream for both sides of /pol/

>>51013246
>do you want burned down churches? because that's how you get burned down churches

>>51013031
>>51013312

He has a modestly popular youtube channel now that gets shitposted on /pol/ where he talks about getting back into contact with nature and simple living and rejecting the trappings of modernity.

The best part of the setting is that the whiter a race is, the more powerful they are; this is described as being a consequence of their greater capacity to absorb light and produce 'sun vitamins.'

There are no playable nonwhite races, only scraelings and darklings as cannon fodder with low stats.

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Every book but the core seemed to go further off the rails but this one here, with it's furry rape monsters, was where I finally lost all hope for the system.

>>51013957
>this is described as being a consequence of their greater capacity to absorb light and produce 'sun vitamins.'

But that's literally the exact opposite of what white people do. What does he think melanin is for?

>>51014390
It is for absorbing barbarism and jewish behaviors from the environment

>>51014390
Obviously it hinders our natural phosphorescence

>>51014390
Science can not get in the way of his Viking fetish.

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>>51010855
>>51011279

>failed

Dude, the kickstarter blew up for the revival. I'm getting this shit in hardcover the minute it's out.

>>51011547

Real talk

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>>51009801

Attitude was pretty awful too. This is what happens when you embezzle and don't pay the writers

>>51012621
>bullshit

>expanded the player base beyond anything it have ever been, and helped bring what was a struggling niche market into a thriving industry

Just because the truth upsets you doesn't mean it's not the truth. Everyone on this board who plays roleplaying game owes a debt to 3rd edition.

>>51015520
Cool. Long as they dodge the shit these anons brought up.
>>51011279
>>51011175
>>51011353
It'd be pretty awesome to have a proper game set in the Valdemar universe. Honestly I'm tempted to write up my own rules but I wasn't even able to finish writing rules for a Fallout TTRPG.

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This one is pretty infamous in a few circles. It starts off with a blurb addressing the elephant in the room that furries aren't all about sex, then runs screaming headlong into creating rules for every fetish the fandom is known for.

>>51009801
Wasn't this made garbage on purpose as a kind of fuck-you by the creator when he leftWW? They actually had to do a whole book to get rid of it.

>>51010665
There was some Black Dog thing Vampire:Some shit place in Canada. The Sabbat were pretty much running around openly with even demon worship going on. That would have brought the Sabbat Inquisition down like a nuke.

>>51015753
This sounds glorious. Tell you what, if someone gets me a pdf, I'll read and review it like it was FATAL.

>>51015753
I have the 5e version. It's slightly less cringey if you keep to the racial stats and only those. The backgrounds and class archetypes are a different story, unfortunately.

>>51012667
Plus the shit you have to do to get ready for stuff like grinding stuff for potions, healing,whatever. I just want to stab orcs in the face for an hour, not spend another hour grinding mana potions and have my finger glued to the drink button

>>51011273
>Takes a broken game.
>Breaks it more.
>Adherents claim it's fixed.
It's basically a big "fuck you" to all the guys who complained that magic use was OP'd in 3.5 - by making magic pretty much all that exists.

It's also essentially just a pay-to-play set of house rules advertised as a whole new game, and several folks have made better, and even more extensive, house rules. (Albeit, I'm sure there's many more instances of worse and less extensive house rules, but there's nearly as many house rules as houses.)

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It is one of the worst thing i have ever read, in my opinion it is quite worse than FATAL

>>51015790
Montreal by Night?

>>51016396
Oh yea, that thing.

The entire Sam Haight shitfest as well. I did read a post that said that the original idea, a kinfolk who was shit on so hard by his Father and brothers because he wasn't a Garou, would snap and do something horrid to steal skinchanger powers was a pretty good idea. Potential for stuff about how Garou have to reconsider their attitudes towards kinfolk. But then it went full shitshow with him always escaping.

>>51016528
Then he ended up an ashtray

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>>51010221

I and most people around my age cut their teeth on 3rd ed, and I've moved onto other RPGs since (mainly Shadowrun)

I mean, I have my issues with the system, sure, but come the fuck on.

>>51009801
Devil's advocate, I thought that Tzimisce Using vicissitude to live in all his progeny was pretty interesting.

>>51016633
having spent a fair amount of time around srg and as much as I could stand on other shadowrun forums, that's not a compelling counter-argument as they have a bountiful complement of autists too. And now we know where they came from.

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>>51016772

This is why you never get games together, you know that?

Here's your response, buddy. You earned it, I guess.

>>51012621
>The OGL opened the floodgates

And that, right there, is why we owe a debt to 3E. The sheer volume of d20 RPGs that were developed under the OGL allowed the hobby to massively expand, and uniting them under a common system meant that "migration" from one game (say, SpyCraft) to another (say, Star Wars Revised) was easy.

Sometimes, quantity has a quality all on its own. Even if 99% of what resulted from the OGL was shit, the sheer amount of RPGs being marketed meant that the 1% that was halfway decent still represented a larger number of RPGs than in the previous decade.

>the MMORPG craze

OGL debuted in 2000. While Ultimate Online and EverQuest were already things by then, MMOs didn't take off in any meaningful way until World of WarCraft, in 2004. That's four years of time wherein new d20 games, or d20 versions of extant games, were hitting the market and getting exposure

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>>51017087
You do have a point there. I've always been in the "fuck D20" camp, but I've recently realized that despite how horribly shit the system is and how many abortions of gaming the OGL spawned it still created games like Fantasycraft and Mutants and Masterminds both of which are easily among favourite games.

It's really hard to say whether the D20 boom was overall a good or bad thing since it's such a double-edged sword.

>>51011273
People, or people who post on /tg/? If the former, they probably just don't like the amount of rules, or dislike d20 in general. If the latter, it's /tg/. People just shit on stuff here.

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>>51018107
It's not the amount of rules. GURPS has two fucking core books and it doesn't get nearly the same degree of shit. The hatred for Pathfinder comes from the fact that the game is an absolute mechanical mess. The sheer number of retards who give money to the incompetent designers also draws ire.

>>51017631
Only in your weird eyes. To the vast majority, 3rd edition's release was one of the best things to happen to the hobby, and even if you enjoy whining and complaining about how a seventeen year old system that everyone's played has some well known flaws, pretending it didn't just revitalize but expand the hobby is just denying verifiable history.

For all the "but this guy I don't like likes pathfinder so I'm gonna say 3rd edition is a bad influence" anecdotes, there's a million more stories of how 3rd edition was the game that made people stop having a casual interest in the hobby, to stop just dipping in their toes but to really dive in. It is a compelling and rewarding system, that hit the sweet spot of not being as ephemeral as more narrative and freeform systems while still being easy to learn the basics, and not being as mechanical heavy and complicated as similar contemporary systems while still providing scalable depth.

It is the foundation of modern RPGs. Even games that developed independently are compared to it and defined by it, and I can understand how if you don't like 3rd edition that must eat away at your soul every day.

>>51018107
Don't judge /tg/ by its worst members. Trolls will troll, and pathfinder remaining popular while having well-known flaws makes it easy trolling material.

>>51012221

Meh, I found it pretty fun.

>>51020127
>fun
Did you make up a virgin Valkyrie? Because of course women didn't have sex in The Olden Days (well except for those horrible Jews).

>>51014390
>not praising the sun to become grossly incandescent

>>51010221
What's up with fa/tg/uys hating 3e and 3.5e

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>>51011646
>In fact, she and George Martin got their settings from campaigns set in the same setting: Birthright. Which is the first mention of a throne, named the Iron Throne

Hunh, this thread learned me something good.

>>51020436
Most of it boils down to the fact that it's popular, and nerds are worse than hipsters about having to hate popular things.

Not that there aren't reasons to hate it because of its popularity. It has a number of serious flaws which could be ignored if they were limited to it, but at least some people who play it are now utterly convinced those are features which should be ubiquitous in all games and genres, as should its other iconic elements. Not to mention we've all met people completely attached to it who won't try anything new, kind of like GURPS cultists but with less claim to genericness to justify their decisions.

But mostly it's just standard nerd-rage at the popular thing all the normies know about.

>>51013312
But just to be clear, you have no issues with the balance or mechanics. So what you're basically saying is-
>You will get to have fun in the wrong way

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>>51019288
What you're saying is fair, but I think you're overstating things a bit.

For "revitilizing the hobby" that's a hard point to argue about. There's no way to really verify how many people got into the game as a result of the d20 boom, but I'll agree that, anecdotally at least, it seems many people got drawn into the hobby with EVERYTHING suddenly becoming d20 compatible.

However, many of the games left in its legacy are really fucking terrible. Designers all jumped on the OGL bandwagon so if you look back many game lines had a generation of d20 games. CoC d20, BESM d20, and Traveller d20 are some of the examples that immediately come to mind and guess what no one today would recommend them. Aside from a few games that really turned the whole system into something new the majority of the 3rd edition and its offspring was really poorly designed and no one would seriously consider playing the games from that era due to their lacking quality. That is a big reason why its legacy is so bad.

I would also argue that 3rd edition wouldn't be the system to get people playing other games. It may have been popular, but it existed in an environment where you could suddenly use the same system for everything you wanted which does not encourage diviersifying your tastes or learning a new system.

Also it is absolutley not the foundation of modern RPGs. Hell, there seems to be a recent trend towards more narrative and freeform games which is the polar opposite of 3e. I've also never hear of a game compared to or defined by 3e outside of maybe some fantasy dungeoncrawlers so please don't kid yourself.

>>51013312
I still wonder if it's at all playable. I've seen the swimming table and it's a sure sign of shitty design but how deep does the rabbit hole go?

>>51021573
This.

3rd's ubiquity pushed out more creative, interesting, and focused design and the hobby is just beginning to recover after 4th made it clear that the successes of 3rd were more about cult of personality than anything else.

>>51023309
>cult of personality
That right there splains how 'popularity' works, and why the 'popular' is objectively ridiculed: people like shit such as pf and d&d because they are POPULAR, not because they are inherently good or unique or compelling in some way. They MAY be good or compelling; but that's not why they are popular. The popularity is not tied to quality - it's a simple cult of personality; groupthink; herd mentality; blind idiots following the crowd.
tl;dr - like stuff because it's good, not because it's popular

>>51025197
I wouldn't say everything achieves popularity because of cult of personality. Some things are objectively good.

3rd isn't one of them.

>>51025197
I think in this hobby it's less blind idiots and more that this hobby is niche and requires you to play with other people so that means that the most popular games are the ones that are going to be stocked by retailers (which are all independents without large profit margins) and the groups you're most likely to find will be playing the most popular games. Unless the store is dedicated to tabletop games you're likely going to only be able to find D&D and PF products in a generic nerd/hobby store. It's not just general popularity because for many people those games are literally their only option.

The problem is that the game's aren't just more popular, but absolutely overwhelming in their presence to the point that you're shit out of luck if you don't go with what everyone else is playing.

I will say that this is less of a problem online once you understand the hobby. I know the resources for finding new games and looking for groups, but it's totally different for the average person who knows nothing and wanders into a game shop in meatspace

>>51025424
Absolutely! Fair point. I am not railing against 'the popular' per se, just the 'mindlessly popular'. I-I can't think of any popular things off-hand that are good; but I'm sure they're out there.....?? And how the hell do we define 'good' if we remove 'popular' from the equation?
The whole 'mindless popularity' seems to arise from people not wanting to bother to learn a thing, so they instead trust the learning of others to guide them. This is wrong and justly ridiculed; this leads to disaster - we must all think for ourselves or we will be led astray. But, that takes effort and time - trusting someone else's opinion is easier and quicker and more efficient - so we trust. If they are worthy of that trust, all is good. If they are not worthy of trust, we just hosed ourselves.
And I'm just thinkin' out loud here, so I'll stop now, Cheers, gents.

>>51025479
good post
So, are you saying that you don't game irl with real people, but do your rp'ing online with folks from farawayplaces? Is this the state of our hobby? (I'm not accusing or baiting, just curious - I have found this to be the case.)
For me, I hafta be willing to play ANYTHING, at anytime, if I want gaming irl. I don't get to play or run the games I want, because no one else in real life wants to do those games - it's all pathfinder and bad star wars or nothing.
Why are we reduced to beer 'n pretzel games for lulz instead of epic games with epic deeds and epic feels? Are we not better than 'the lowest common denominator'???

>>51025768
Not him, but I'm very fortunate that I have a solid group that meets several times a month, mostly to play board games. We've recently started dipping toes in TTRPG's thanks to stuff like Dread and One Last Job (fucking awesome, this one).

I think where a lot of the newer more narrative based systems are really taking off online.

>>51015794
https://www.google.pl/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://i.yuki.la/tg/1456224093776.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiqiYPtsanRAhUCkSwKHb3-A50QFgghMAE&usg=AFQjCNGJKnLWrdpamG_CDFsx-Dndj4tvJw&sig2=370-wm4aWDZW9QCFFgN87w
here u go

>>51025768
Do I play online? Haha fuck no. I'm too bad a time management to actually do so and even when I had an IRL group it was very sporadic when our schedules synched. I just meant that if I wanted to I could because I know what games I want to play and what resources are available while poor Johnny who's just heard about this tabletop roleplaying thing is at the mercy of the two games that dominate the market.

Yeah, that's the state of our hobby, but honestly I'd still say that its better than it ever was. I never played (or even existed for that matter) in the 70s and 80s, but today we can go online and find a group if we want to and use online tools which means we have more options than ever. If you're interested check out a gamefinder thread for GMs or post your own profile for what you're looking for or willing to run. Just be prepared for crazies if you're playing online because it's harder to filter out the good autism from the bad autism when you're not with people face to face. Epicness can still happen. You just have to be prepared to sift through crap before you find decent people.

>bad star wars
Glad to hear someone else dislikes the new games. For me its Star Wars d6 or bust.

>>51021291
>no issues with the balance or mechanics
What I've seen of it, like the swimming chart, is absolutely retarded, and I'm sure the mechanics are bad. But you're correct, I have not played it and my main concern is not with the game. What I've seen of setting and mechanics are bad, but they're not my main gripe.
I just cannot stand Varg as a person, I think he's an absolute joke.

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>>51025886
Well it doesnt look as bad as advertised except this but thats just a quick scroll through

>>51025768
>Epic games
I bet it's more an issue of having GM's like me. I can't write a decent campaign to save my life but I can sure as hell adapt pre-written stuff to damn near any setting, assuming it uses the same system.

But I get what you mean about having to be up for anything. For example two games I'm playing in. One is D&D that has been running literally for years and I enjoy it. The other is L5R which I don't like as much. I would have preferred to play/run Shadowrun or Iron Kingdoms. But the others wanted L5R and the guy running it writes great campaigns, so I'll deal with playing a system I don't like very much.

>>51026027
>wendigo turns you into a cat girl
For some reason I think /tg/ would probably love this game.

>>51025995
For a youngster, you make a lot of sense. Although, how someone your age knows of the goodness of d6 Star Wars i will never know: congratulations! You lucked out. And thanks for the kind suggestion.

>>51025995
>>51026374
So, our hobby is too niche? People's preferred interests are too narrow to allow for much overlap? (This would apply to all media/all interests, I suppose: movies, tv, books, games, etc etc.) Those who share interests are too few, too spread out to generally be able to interact in real life...or turn a profit on a rp game......
I'm still thinking out loud, trying to conceive of some possible solution to us people fracturing away from each other instead of coming together.
Hmm - would some of the world- or myth-building games work, like Aria or Microscope - the idea is your group gets together and more or less brainstorms a world history among themselves. Would this bring about the necessary group cohesion to play something less generic?
Or, if we accept 'generic', how can we make better 'generic' games?

>>51009801
>>51010153 >>51010541 >>51010773 >>51011186 >>51011242 >>51012472 >>51015544 >>51015770 >>51016651

Personally I thought it was one of the better splat books... It gave us Old Clan Tzimisce and the True Brujah.

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>Let's remove the space travel from our space game

>>51026988
>I know culdonic sorcerer's already easily cover the dracula stereotype but we'll give you yet another Tzimisce that overlaps something we already have for no reason
>the ultimate mary-sue time control bloodline

both of those were terrible.

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>>51009801

To be fair the content wasn't that bad on paper. Still, kinda unplayable in 99.9999999% of groups.

>>51026488
Haha, thanks. I'm just a huge Star Wars fanboy. I learned that much of the setting's lore originated from the world guides for the system (to the point that EU authors were given the books as reference) and they're all readily available online so I took a look and thought the system really worked well for what it was trying to do. Rules aside I'm still blown away by how much content there is for the system. You might already know, but be sure to look for the Star Wars Revised, Expanded, and Updated edition made by fans. It compiles and clarifies the rules and errata while adding a bit of fan content for prequel stuff. It's much easier than reading scans!

>>51026788
There's no way to really "fix" the hobby. It's fractured because there's hundreds of games of different genres and styles of play. You want a fantasy game? Well from the huge pool of options that can be narrowed down significantly. High or low? Focus on action and dungeoncrawls or narrative and character? Rules heavy or more freeform? Video games are fractured too, but the difference is that there are way more people playing them and they're miuch easier to jump into. I don't need 4 other people ready every time I want to play an obscure video game from the 90s, but with tabletops good fuckign luck.

The best solution is forums like this that have likeminded individuals communicating. Here you can discuss an niche within an niche and from that it's possible to get a group and game running without leaving your chair. We're really in the best possible situation.

>>51015520
>he kickstarter blew up for the revival.

Good luck making anyone who isn't a RPG.net drone to Buy it after the kikestarter

>>51015807
Fursona have a 5e version? Link?

>>51027156
>be sure to look for the Star Wars Revised, Expanded, and Updated edition made by fans. It compiles and clarifies the rules and errata while adding a bit of fan content for prequel stuff.
I did know, but thanx for spreading the word. I have yet to find a better cinematic system. If only I had folks irl with whom to play....everyone wants to play what they want to play, and don't have fun when it's anything else.
>We're really in the best possible situation
I hear you, but that's also sadly and bitterly funny...I suppose I must accept that real life gamegroups are dinosaurs - we start out irl groups playing dnd or pf or whatever's popular, then grow apart into niche interests. Divided we fall...I just - I can't help but wonder: there HAS to be a unifying core of human experience; this endless subdividing into obscure niche interests cannot be the only approach to gaming: at some point we're just catering to individual preference, and that's not good for anybody in a 'group' game.
I suppose that Rifts or Gurps or the Storyteller system tried to address this: 'basic' game that can encompass many different 'styles', so everyone can play what they want and still be part of one group. Though I don't think any of those games were very successful at bringing multiple genres together in an actual player group, from what I hear.

>>51025572
>>51023309

one of the reasons that 3e is hated so much is because it's a bad enough system and it was widely disseminated.

And that combination means that it didn't just push other, much better, systems out of the market but that it literally taught a lot of people who got into TTRPGs that learning a new system is like rubbing your face against a cheese grater.

which in turn means that there's this large cohort of fucks in the TTRPG scene who will never even TRY something else.

Effectively creating a special hell for GMs who end up with "PF or 3e only" groups who wouldn't otherwise exist.

>>51026988

The problem is that it's a good book for a game completely different than Vampire was at that time - it's focus on shit happening in the underworld and also eastern europe and also space aliens? And also there's all this shit within the sabbat's upper ranks and also in the inconnu etc... and to add to that it basically overturns a lot of what had been established canon in the setting arbitrarily, which then made ideas in it hard to slip into established games without standing out.

Now as a weird mage supplement, it's a good supplement because mage games can do the world travelling, the weird shit with contagious spirit fleshwarping powers and/or space aliens for no reasons, as well as the interdimensional ghost fucking shit that the book focuses on, and even the new True Brujah discipline was fairly tame in mage terms - it's basically nothing a 3 arete mage with 2dots in forces and 3 dots in time can't do anyway.

(compare and contrast the first thaumaturgy book that was just entirely unbalanced without having anything more interesting than "you can use thaumaturgy to do lightning instead of fire! Or make toasters dance!" - there should have been an award given to whoever it was who managed to both make Thaumaturgy game breakingly overpowered and yet somehow really boring at the same time)

>>51027666
What you're saying is interesting and I think that the "unifying core of human experience" you want to find I think is really just the idea of telling stories. That's the whole reason these games are fun and why pretty much any media exists for us to enjoy. The fact that these games give us narrative control and a story that is unknown to everyone participating is what makes them so engaging.

I also think that trying to bring everyone together under one game is impossible. I suppose that would be an ideal, but can you think of any movie or videogame that everyone could universally enjoy? Everyone has different tastes and I'm sure that you also have games that you really want to play or certain genres that you just don't enjoy. I think the diversity is a strength because I can name a dozen games I would play in a heartbeat even if there's a hundred that really don't interest me. The fact that there are so many options out there means that you are able to pick and choose.

The real complaint is that the market is dominated by two fantasy games. If the market was more mixed I think we'd have a better time.

>>51016198
this is an awful photo, but tell me more

>>51029618
Not that anon; I was going to just post the book for you but apparently I don't have a copy anymore.

>>51016528
>>51016577

Sam Haight went through every system in whitewolf. He was a werewolf with Fae and Vampire Powers with a staff that gave him mage spheres and could basically walk in and out of the shadowlands and have coffee with wraiths. He was meant to be a bad mary-sue of exceptions to the rules to be as meta as possible and was literally White Wolf making fun of its own munchkin fanbase.

He served a purpose. Also yes he did end up an ashtray.

>>51028213
>which in turn means that there's this large cohort of fucks in the TTRPG scene who will never even TRY something else
What I wonder is whether this is a good thing or not. If you have no interest in checking out anything in the hobby beyond the single game you've played is that really the fault of the game or the player? 3e being a nightmare to learn doesn't help, but I can't help feeling that this is a kind of retard magnet effect like /b/ is here so those with a vague interest get drawn to the single thing and if they're too stupid to look beyond they're kept contained without shitting up everything else.

>>51026988
I like Old Clan Tzimisce, only clan in the VTM setting that can really fit Dracula in it.

>>51012472
People like Infernals. They just ignore the first two chapters. A better example is Scroll of the Monk.

>>51028754
Hmm - yes, we may have no greater common denominator than the desire to tell stories. I don't really have much to offer/add, except it seems, to me, that there are numerous varied games out there: we may not need more games, necessarily, just more exposure to the ones that aren't 'popular'.
I've been exposed to a lot of fringe stuff thanks to /tg/ - my game horizon has expanded dramatically since getting trapped here. What strikes me are the international rpg's - from France, Poland, Japan, Germany, etc. How the hell do we spread the word on all the good games out there? And help people avoid Those games?

>>51030584
Maybe because it's an entire sub-clan created specifically for Dracula.

>>51009801
But Nagaraja a cute

>>51030784
Maybe, but it's the only one that has any of his flavor. Dracula is supposed to exist in VTM and thus him not fitting into any of the clans wouldn't make sense.

>>51011844
It's unreasonable to expect you to fuck girls, you fucking fruit

>>51020436
There are three reasons people hate it.
Most people latch on to one.

Instilling expectations of balance, while broken over the knee.
W e W u z H i p s t e r s N ' S h e e i t F a m
Radical thematic divergence from the OSR mentality.

>>51030536
That is a good point I had not considered. Not all gamers are created equally, not just in regards to preferences, but also regarding desire and ability. Those with the desire, the ability, or with alternate preferences, will find other games.
But, shit! That just leads back to my initial complaint: we need more good players playing good games together. How do we get them? How do we popularize our niche hobby? Is that the answer?

>>51014390
>But that's literally the exact opposite of what white people do.
>What does he think melanin is for?
What do (You) think melanin is for?

You get paler people as you move farther away from the equater.
The sunlight approaches at a less steep angle, so it passes through more atmosphere (gets obstructed more).
With less sun exposure you need less shielding, so in those conditions it's advantageous to spend less affording growing shielding.

You don't even make Vitamin D (a hormone actually, not a vitamin by definition, you cannot make your own vitamins) with skin. Let alone melanin.
You make it inside oils secreted onto the surface of your skin.
Vitamin D is mostly involved in brain growth/maintenance and is made from cholesterol (incidentally, brains are 25% cholesterol by weight keep the fuck away from statins, cholesteral levels aren't indicative of heart risks and actively lowering cholesterol levels damages your brain). But I digress.

What I'm getting at though, is that skin color is unrelated to Vitamin D.
Black or white, it only takes 15 minutes of sun to create a days worth of Vitamin D.
Like 3 days to absorb it though and it washes off, so go outside after you shower.
You also don't get UV B at all seasons in all climates (again, atmosphere shielding), so make sure to stockpile extra if you live north.
But again, I digress.

>>51030986
Expaning on this,

Most people who dislike it thematically played OSR before losing 3e.
Most people who dislike it from expecting balance joined the hobby with 3e.
Most people who dislike it for being popular never played OSR, but didn't start with 3e.

And almost all people who like 3e started with it.

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>>51014390
Err... melanin significantly reduces your ability to create Vitamin D. That's why people who evolved in areas which had long seasons with little sunlight when everybody wore heavy clothing and stayed indoors a lot don't have much of it. They needed to process as much Vitamin D as possible with minimal exposure to sunlight.

The trade-off is that melanin stops you getting skin cancer by blocking UV rays from penetrating into the living cells in the lower layers of the skin, so paler people suffer more cancer.

Anyway, to contribute to the topic, pic related. Basically responsible for GURPS's reputation as a horribly complex game. Although I think GURPS Mecha, which used an almost identical system but combined it with the worst possible genre for the real-physics and engineering based approach was the true low-point of the system.

>>51031457

Is this the one with the calculus?

>>51031457
>Err... melanin significantly reduces your ability to create Vitamin D.
c >>51031345

Melanin has nothing to do with Vitamin D.
Melanin isn't strenuous to make, but it's strictly less taxing to not make.

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>>51026027
There is this guy, Mr Snake-Hands Man

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>>51009801
The Tzimisce Clanbook with the vagina on the back as well.

>>51011391
Fuck that book, seriously fuck it in its stupid ass. Fucking Ree Soesbee strikes again. She also wrote the god awful Way of the Crane as well.

>>51031121
>good players and good games
>popular
I know I'm being super cynical, but I think those are mutally exclusive. Pathfinder is popular so they just keep crapping out broken soucebooks and D&D is super popular so 5e is, while well made, one of the most boring rulesets I've ever seen because it's trying to make the broadest possible audience happy.

>>51023309
4th is terrible WoW dreck.

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>>51031981
Ebin maymay bro.

>>51023309
The funny thing is that a lot of the splats for 3.5/PF have classes and lore that you just do not see in other games, which often build up from the same generic fantasy base and, due to their unpopularity, rarely branch out from it. I don't know of another fantasy ttrpg with something like the Synthesist from Patfhfinder in it, for example. It's at the point where if you want something that's not fighter/wizard/rogue, then the 'uncreative' DnD and its spinoffs are the only thing you have.

>>51021573
>narrative and freeform games
Really terrible stuff if you don't want to sit there and wank a social affair for three hours.

>>51030584
You're joking, right?

>>51025886
Jesus fucking Christ. You don't try to explain that furries and your game aren't sexual by referencing a specific porn artist and using the phrase "multiple penises."

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>>51032127
Milk does a body good.

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>>51014914

WE WUZ VIKANGZ

>>51031981
I enjoyed it, but I don't think it should have been released as a D&D game.
They were just trying to change too much and the collective outburst of rocking back and forth it caused every autistic person on the planet almost threw the earth off its axis.

It would have been a lot safer to release it as a completely new license.

>>51032202
Goddamn. I haven't found anything else specific, but it's just feels like there's a sexual bent throughout and quite a bit of discussion on sexual characteristics. The tone coupled with the horrifically bad art is just uncomfortable. I hope this wasn't a physical published product.

>>51029618
https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/13/13640$.phtml
http://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/purplexvi/black-tokyo/#6
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Black_Tokyo

Here are few reviews that explain it way better than i could, Black Tokyo is Fatal turned to at least 11 and that is without it's 9 nine splatbook that all are worse than Fatal on their own.

>>51032338
>lactation is how mothers feed children

>sexual bent

Wtf is wrong with you?

>>51031457
I'm in a group with several GURPS grogs, and no one likes that book. It's really, really shit.

>>51032399
I mean the rest of the book. There's a link above if you want to partake in the horror.

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>>51032399
Guy who posted the image here, I just think it is funny as fuck that a furfag can sustain itself and one other without any outside input. It is like their boobs are connected to the elemental plane of milk.

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wins the award of least worth the money

>>51032509
Any explanation? I haven't read it so i have no idea what they did

>>51032447
It says a lot that I misread grop as rape. If they wanted to make the game non-sexual then they shouldn't have added a fucking tentacle rape feat.

>>51032509
wew lad
You are kind of right though. Only D&D could get away with splitting the rules up into 3 fucking expensive books.

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>>51032552
Also you can play your fursona as a full on Mary Sue.

>>51012080
Such a shame that it's a waste of good aesthetic design.

>>51011186

It had a mix of very cool stuff (Old Clan Tzimisce in particular), but also some really terrible stuff (Vicissitude as a disease; Temporis). Game mechanically it created lots of problems.

The real sin, though, was that it totally upended the metaplot, retconned the Sabbat and Black Hand, and pulled the covers off stuff that really should have been left to storyteller discretion. It cheapened what was already out there and moved the game from its original focus (in-city politics among neonates/primogen) and into world-spanning metaconflicts between vast factions where you played one of those Big Players. And it was so detailed and specific that it left no room for anything other than itself. Contrast the Inconnu, who were mostly left mysterious and were used effectively by WW for far longer.

That might have worked if it had been more deftly handled, but instead it came off as a mix of good ideas and very juvenile ones. If it had just plain sucked everyone would have ignored it, but the power creep, retcons, and metaplot stuff basically meant that unless the whole group actively kept it out, it would find its way into your game. The road to the gameworld falling apart and eventually oWoD being thrown out started here.

I think really it was meant to shake things up (which it did, in a bad way) and also to add crossovers to Wraith, which kind of sucked at that point and needed help.

Anyway, WoD was a whole new way of gaming-- very very story driven. By hosing the story, WoD was on the road to being Just Another Game. IMO to this day the best Vampire game is to play with VtM, 2nd ed player's guide and nothing else.

>>51032084
No, it's actually true.

Here's the things Dracula is known for:

Charm and Domination
Shapeshifting into animals
Controlling animals

So his ideal Disciplines will be Animalism, Protean, and Presence or Dominate. A clan with three of these doesn't exist, so we'll have to match for two.

Tzimisce doesn't fit, it has Vicissitude and Auspex. Auspex doesn't hurt, but being a fleshwarping fetishist isn't Dracula's thing. There's Gangrel with Animalism and Protean, but Dracula isn't an unwashed, feral, retarded animal like Gangrel are, so they don't fit. There's Ventrue with Presence and Dominate, but they don't have any of his esoteric powers and are explicitly not a thing in Transylvania/Romania. I think that's it for two matches.

So none of the default clans work, and thus the question of where Dracula goes comes up. Here's Old Clan Tzimisce, with Animalism and Dominate, which keys two of his big themes, with Auspex in the rear at least not contradicting the legends any. Plus, they actually ARE from Transylvania and fit his character in general.

>>51032548
Semi joking, but I really don't like anything about 5th edition.

If it was the only edition of dnd, it would be freaking amazing.

HOWEVER

It takes the best parts of 3.5, first edition, and general gamer culture,
(including shit from WOW like that bullshit where a ranger has to SPEND AN
ACTION for their animal (A SEPERATE SELF AWARE CREATURE (look nested parentheses)) to bite things.)

It includes only that stuff which is tried and true, sure to generate value for the company.
This means that if you've already played dnd, you gain nothing from 5th edition books
unless you adopt them as your system. It has very few ideas unique to it.
Essentially all it does it take 3.5, and make it pretty well balanced up to
level 20. Except that is, for the fact that hitpoints go up insanely much with level,
which kills the feeling of realism for me. Its marketed as a return to Oldschool dnd, which
is way the fuck more lethal.

Oldchool dnd has such things as save or die traps at level 1 (and no save death if you touch the
wrong thing), 10th level characters with 11-8-16-4-13-9 stats that actually work, armor that REALLY MAKES
a differance (a 10th level mage with maybe 25 hitpoints and no armor=ac9 really cares about 2 first level
fighters, because they hit him on 10 or higher and do 1d4 to 1d10 damage).

>>51032814
5th edition armor is less important than hitpoints, which go from like 4 (odnd you could have 4 hp at lvl 4)
to like 60 for a 10th level WIZARD. That's good hitpoints for a 1st edition fighter with 18 con.

5th edition is a perfectly fine system, and with how popular it is I have played in multiple groups with
good dms, and enjoyed myself. That's the opperant phrase. Good dms. Wizards of the coast is selling 5e as
the final word in modern dnd. If you play it like that, with no addition of decent roleplaying and story-
telling you will remain autistic and incapable of imagination. I have paid MONEY for official wotc
sponsers to dm me through games and be told I couldn't open a fuckign unlocked door without rolling.

I have made a VOW to neve give wotc my money again, after what they did to dnd and magic.
They only care about money, and have added nothing to the gaming industry since they accidentally
provided the opportunity for a bunch of crazy homebrews and revitalized the gaming industry with 3.0
IN THE YEAR 2000. I was 12.

Ind addition, it costs 50 dollars to buy the new books when they come out. This feels like a slap in the
face if you know how to convert old monsters to new rules, and buy the monster manual only to see
nothing but old monsters.

An interesting factoid is that, when buying the books for 5e at their initial $50 price tag each (I think there's 5 or 6)
You pay $250 to $300 dollars. The entire first edition, which started this whole thing and had new content in each
booklet costs $5 for the first three books, and $10 for each of the 4 supplements, which are not needed at all
to play the game. That's less than a single 5th edition book when it came out. Nowadays you can get the original
3 books (men and magic, monsters and treasure, underworld and wilderness) PLUS SOME OR ALL of
the supplements in 1 box for...$250 to $300 on ebay. A single one of these books provides more insight and
fantasy feel than all of 5th edition combined.

>>51031934
>Popular games either crap out garbage or pablum.
Dammit! I was hoping for more...
It seems the only way to get better games and better players is to make all of society better.....so, what we got is all we're gonna get........fug...
Ah well, there are some good lurkers here, at any rate. /tg/ has taught me much. Where else do 'good' gamers hide?

>>51011273

For the same reason /an/ is on a "we all hate cats" drive, or why there's a backlash against anything that becomes such conventional wisdom that it becomes a meme. It's just a raw backlash driven by people who want to be contrarian.

3.x was a major advance in RPGs. It's easy to forget that for ten years, White Wolf was running everything in the RPG market (FASA and SJGames and others did stuff too but WW was handing out free top shelf liquor to their guests at con parties, not to mention a prime time network TV series).

WW itself popularized a whole new way to play: fuck the rules, concentrate on the storytelling. Which worked great with a group of theater majors in a dorm room who hadn't really played other games before. And was a good sell to gamers sick of what AD&D had turned into.

So then a whole new generation of people who WANTED thick rules and game- rather than storytelling-oriented play got roped into WoD, because that's what people were playing. WW reacted by providing more rules, more cruft, turning into what it had originally overthrown.

And, frankly, people were sick of playing modern horror with tragically hip, angst-ridden gothic punk anti-heroes.

So 2000 hits and everyone kind of said, "you know what our group hasn't played in forever? D&D." Right then 3.0 comes out with a crisp ruleset that fixed a lot of the problems in AD&D and was the playable, GAMEable game that WoD wasn't. Game balance ideas borrowed from MtG, new ideas like bonus types, itemization, chakra/slots, and character progression planned from scratch. A big hit. It spread like herpes at a goth club.

4.0 was a disappointment for a lot of the big 3.x fans. So gamers settled on it, and it still has a massive installed base.

Naturally, like any game it has problems, but like WW before it, it was also just getting old, boring, and weighed down under its load of supplements. So I'm not at all surprised that there's a backlash.

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>>51032830
I do not hate 5th edition, and it does not automatically ruin a game, but a good dm is needed, and 5th edition
just provides good dms with safe rules to use. It does not contain anything to make it worth the price tag.

And that's not even getting into the whole feminism bullshit in the first book.

My gaming groups have never had any reason to forbid a character, based on the character's gender or sexuality, until someone read that "equal rights" paragraph in 5e handbook and decided they wanted to play a pedofile female elf with huge books who loves to masturbate.

For gods sake, in the first edition it only touches the subject twice. The first is when (I forget which book) it says female fighters are just as numerous and skilled as male, cross page from a nice picture of said female fighter in heavy armor with a sword.

The second time is when they give the stats for bahamet and taimat. They say "women's lib may draw whatever conclusion they wish from the fact that evil dragons have a queen, while good dragons have a king."

Women's. Lib.

Short for women's liberation, this is the GOOD form of feminism, founded by girls who ACTUALLY HAD TO DEAL WITH SHIT.

They weren't told to get back in the kitchen by kids in a video game, they were told so by their husbands, and prevented from pursuing careers. Those women didn't give a fuck that transexuals and queers had funky sexual orientations. They allied with gays because they shared a serious fucking problem.

I'm not saying women are perfectly equal in our society, but you gotta admit, things were worse 50 years ago.

>>51032886
That comic makes me want to both vomit in disgust at their opinions and disregard yours entirely.

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>>51032924
Well you're wrong on the internet.

>>51032933
No, I'm not. Because holy shit, it combines men are evil with muh special snowflake genders with a desire for special treatment with blind utopianism. It's like all the worse things combined into five panels.

>>51032040
fair point
>>51032746
Drac is gangrel - did you miss the whole romany thing?

>>51032989
>Gangrel.
>Suave, sophisticated, lady's man Dracula, king of Transylvania.
>A dirty, unwashed, unsophisticated, retarded Gangrel.
Do you know nothing about the clan?

>>51033003
Do you know nothing about stereotyping????

>>51032933
People hate haggis because it has a visible stomach container desu.

>>51033003
Karen Anotos is as Dracula as a character can get - she's a powerful gangrel, in the gangrel clanbook. Reed moar.

>>51032885
I don't think the hatred directed at a game remaining popular despite being objectively shit is a meme or an attempt at being contrarian. The boatload of rules may have been cool at the time, but now it's blatantly obvious just how terrible those rules really are and while other games have had whole new editions and evolved 3.5 has stagnated for longer than any other game I can think of.

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>>51032958
Yes it does.

The comic that is.

The comic, which I posted as an example.

An example of something bad

Which I disagree with.

So you either hate the comic, or you hate me.

Either way, I'd advice you not to go around hating.

Spread happyness and love where ever you go, and happyness will blossom for you.

>>51033039
Haggis desu fampai sam?

>>51032063
It's all about balancing the issue.

If you play a game, and it's all mechanics and no fluff or roleplaying, that's fine. Eventually, however, you will probably start to wonder more about the details as you realize that you're getting bored of just doing the same thing over and over. Eventually this leads to more fluff, attempts at roleplaying, etc.

How hard the rules are and how much roleplay is involved is different for everyone, but if you play long enough, you'll probably slip to somewhere closer to the middle between the two aspects.

>>51033062
To be honest's abbreviation is filtered to desu.

>>51012472
Infernals was amazing. Only bits of it were reviled. If those bits weren't in it, it would be perfect like Alchemicals was. Alas.

>>51033035
You know that in in WoD, those stereotypes exist for a reason? All the clans are strongly inclined to behave exactly within a certain set of stereotyped personality traits because of their clan culture, their disciplines, and the blood itself pushing them towards it.

>>51033049
>Braindead actress
>Anything like Dracula
Are you serious?

>>51018555

People hold Pathfinder to a standard of game design and balance that literally didn't exist when 3.x first came out. D&D3 had to create these ideas and get them so close to right that people started to expect that kind of balance out of their RPGs. It was only once that standard had been out for a few years that people started to take it for granted. By then there was a library of new D&D3.x material out there: some good, some not. The sheer volume of new cruft helped unbalance the game even further.

So while you're absolutely right, you can't deny that it was a fantastic game in its era and a major landmark in game design.

Just compare the rules nightmares that were dominating the industry when it came out. GURPS 3 was a mess, spread out over a million books and full of needless complexity and STILL not fully balanced. oWoD (the market leader) was designed specifically to have crap mechanics so that players would focus on the story; the number of exploitable mechanics was unbelievable and WW in that era didn't even playtest alot of their material before it went out the door. SR3 was like the gaming equivalent of schizophrenia, it managed to combine the simplicity of GURPS3 with the mechanical rigor of oWoD. And lets not even talk about mechwarrior and other niche games.

GURPS doesn't get as much grief around here for several reasons. First, not many people play it, and the ones who do are fans. So naturally any (informed) criticism is going to be respectful and muted.

Second, GURPS 4 fixed most of the problems of 3. Especially complexity. Most of those Core Books are full of optional rules that you can turn on and off. Basic GURPS rules are now <40 pages.

Finally, GURPS doesn't get the hate because there isn't a deafening volume of gamers who still to this day give it love. The Pathfinder crowd is still huge and vocal, and so you get people yelling loudly against it just to be heard.

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>>51015753
>furries aren't all about sex

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>>51033076
ITS NOT LIKE I WANNA SUCK YOUR DICK WHILE YOU COME IN MY PUSSY AND MAKE LITTLE BABIES OR ANYTHING BAKA BAKA BAKA

>>51033066
Too bad there aren't games for that.

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>>51016198
I've read though it and FATAL, and I agree with you.

>>51033142
I don't understand the query.

There are tons of games that are just crunch, there are games that are just loose/no rules and just roleplaying, and there are games in-between.

>>51033163
>there are games in-between
Name a good one.

>>51033091
>muh, characters can only be exactly like the clans from which they derive, no variation allowed at all, ever
Did you even READ the game, famalamadingdong? Are you AWARE of what stereotyping is?? Are you CAPABLE of acting like an adult??? And, did you fucking READ the gangrel clanbook????
Try harder, kiddo.

>>51033245
I hate to say it but 5e

>>51031722

Yes. It's from a previous edition, two decades old, and was an optional system even for GURPS 3e.

But it was almost stupidly complex. No calculus that I recall, but some logarithms and exponents. It was bad enough that it sucked, it damaged the GURPS brand for the next 20 years, and still annoys even fans. The system itself actually does product a balanced, real-world accurate vehicle, but by that point your game group has all died of old age and/or you've killed yourself.

Contrast GURPS Spaceships for 4th ed. Also very balanced, but VERY easy, flexible, and clear as well. Amazingly, it's by the same author. Apparently, Pulver is working on a 4th edition vehicle design system based on the ideas in Spaceships. Nobody is in a rush to see it come out after the fiasco that was the original Vehicles book.

>>51031905

If you're going to put a vagina on the cover of a book, at least have the courtesy for the book not to suck. This book was a soup-to-nuts travesty, probably another case of good ideas that got screwed up in a rush to get it into print.

Really, most of the clanbooks turned out to be pretty bad, but Tzimisce was garbage. It COULD have been good, but, well....

I think it's a requirement of a That Book. It has to be something with enough good ideas, or important enough to an important enough game that you can't just ignore it. The world is full of terrible crap, but the worst is crap that flings itself into your face. GURPS vehicles was eagerly awaited by autists and does give you something you want. So people can't just ignore it. The Tzimisce were supposed to be old-style draculas... this should have been WW at its best and they fucked it up. So you can't ignore THAT etiehr.

>>51033302
>5e
No. Just, no. Fuck 5e. It's incredibly boring and flavorless. It doesn't even have the splats to mutate it into something weirder yet.

>>51033294
I did read the game. Those stereotypes are there because they apply to pretty much all of the members of the clan. I listed three reasons why that is in the post you quoted.

>>51033328
get better, kid

>>51033338
That's not really an argument. At all. For why Dracula fits into the barbarian clan.

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>>51033314
Well it is. Sorry you don't like, oh well.

>>51033059

>Objectively shit

You're assuming criteria which were invented after it came out.

>boatload of rules

But most of those came in expansions and later versions. The core three books and adventures still play very very well.

The appeal of 3 when it came out was that it was so clean, clear, and playable. I know that sounds crazy now, because you've been buried in two decades of additions and options and changes. Also because D&D raised the bar for what a good game system is. You have to contrast it with the shit systems of its era, including its successor.

>stagnated

And here's where we get to 3.x's enduring appeal. First, stagnating was the whole point. D&D 4 was a total mess. The people who stuck with 3.x (the majority of the player base) either hated it on sight or hated it after a year or so when the core books became useless and the game system was subjected to endless layers of cruft and retcons via errata. The game had some good ideas but overall was a dung fire, having sacrificed everything on the altar of game balance and not even getting that. Pathfinder was a way for people to stick with a game that, for all its flaws, was overall far superior to what came after it.

The real challenge to 3.x now is that D&D 5 is an excellent game that fixes a lot of the problems with 3 without throwing out everything that made D&D in general great. So finally there's a reason to abandon it.

Meanwhile, WW fixed the WoD system... somewhat. SR5 is better than SR3, at least that's what I hear. GURPS released 4e a few years after D&D 3 came out and was a massive improvement. The bar's been raised.

>>51033359
You keep pounding your craycray stereotypes, senpai! Did you not learn that characters and people are more than little stereotypes? That the clan stereotypes are a beginning, not an end? Did you not read the gangrel clanbook? (I know you didn't.) Did you not read the history of the gangrel clan?
Now, shuffle off, and come back when you're better at this.

>>51033314
I'm 5e hater guy, and I say play original dnd, or a retroclone. Example: Swords and wizardry

https://www.froggodgames.com/swords-wizardry-complete-rulebook

>>51029702
Did your computer realize what a horrible thing it was keeping and decided to delete it on it's own?

>>51033518

It's guys like you both who give me the firm sense that VtM would have been better off if they'd quit after releasing Chicago by Night.

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>>51033518
Kk...keep pounding senpai .m.

>>51033442
>But most of those came in expansions and later versions. The core three books and adventures still play very very well.

No... most of the major imbalances are in the 3.5 PHB. CoDzillas and overpowered Wizards need nothing but the PHB.

>>51033567
>filename
kek

>>51033245
Are you implying that there are no fun tabletop RPGs?

>>51033518
>Did you not learn that characters and people are more than little stereotypes?
Sure, but those stereotypes are meant to apply to all of the members of a clan. They can be different outside of them, but not within them.

>>51033518
>history of the gangrel clan
Also, the only kingship is Gangrel is in a primitive understanding of the Vikings. Depicted them as dirty, unwashed, unsophisticated, and retarded. Barbaric.

>>51033598
Overpowered wizards are still in 5e.

>>51033677
I'm saying there's nothing current like he describes.

>>51031436
I started with 3e, and you literally couldn't fucking pay me enough to play that shitpile again.

>>51033131
When 3e came out? No.

When Pathfinder came out, and the devs were swearing up and down they'd fix the issues? YES.

Fuck right off with this Pathfinder apologist dogshit.

>>51012987
None of the 'supposed to be temporary' makes the book any better.
Shitty adventures where the PCs get to sit and watch as everybody else (read: The Lady of Fucking Pain) does all the work, and nothing is fucking explained unless they read all the bullshit fiction that is explicitly for the DM.
Though, Dead Gods was even worse.
Seriously, Planescape was a wonderful idea that TSR kept shitting on more and more (and the fact that most of the shit has Monte Cook's name on it explains why I've never really bought into the later 'wunderkind' narrative around him.)

>>51033131
That amount of throwing shade at games that worked perfectly fucking fine in order to defend Pathfinder is goddamn hilarious.

>>51033598
>Anon 1 refers to the appeal of 3rd 'when it came out'
>Anon 2 then complains about 3.5
Learn to history, anon.

>>51034236
>>51033837
Being a raging ass isn't going to make everyone convert to your preferred edition.

>>51033728
I am he.

Here's the spectrum:
>This game has rules, but little to no flavor or roleplaying.
>This game has a combination of rules and roleplaying at its core.
>This game has roleplaying and little to no rules.

Tabletop Role Playing Games are there in the middle. Your Pathfinders, Mutants and Masterminds, BESM, Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, etc.

Are you saying that no games exist in this middle category that are fun, or are you trying to get into a more specific niche of the spectrum and can't find any worthwhile examples?

>>51034306
My preferred edition is everyone getting drunk and hitting each other with sticks, so I actually prefer getting everyone as pissed off as possible.
What's your excuse?

>>51033131
>you can't deny that it was a fantastic game in its era and a major landmark in game design.

I absolutely and easily can.

Having all classes progress equally with one another through levels but still having some of them be objectively worse than one another while at the same stage of progression is horrible game design.

Having trap/bad options in an rpg is horrible game design, it adds absolutely nothing to the roleplaying experience that actually good or fun options would have done better.

>>51034313
These two posts

>>51021573
>>51033066

Seem to be talking about a spectrum WITHIN tabletop games. You're now talking about a spectrum that extends beyond it.

>>51033145
Can you help me explain why it is so bad? English is not my first language it's french and i am bad with words

>>51033697
Erm - the 'viking' gangrel mentioned in the g clanbook weren't dirty unwashed blah blah blah, anon: they were VALKYRIES, anon. Valkyries.
You don't read too good.

>>51034325
Everything after >>51033066 this post, I was talking about the whole spectrum in and out, though I was already on my way there at the time.

For example, if you set up a game that is flavored in a way that lends itself well to role playing, but only has crunch at its core, then players over time will gravitate towards role playing in order to spice it up.
I've experienced this one in LARP-style combat games.

On the flip-side, if the game is roleplaying focused and is pretty loose on rules, they will likely at some point sit down and discuss potential rules variations or additional boundaries.
I've experienced this one on forums.

Tabletop RPGs are somewhere in the middle, because they employ both, though the range of how much crunch or how much roleplaying can vary from game to game.
So my question to you is to clarify specifically the area in which you're having trouble finding good games, and what it is that you're looking for. Get really particular.

>>51034385
Barbarian wenches for the Barbarian lord Odin and his band of mad, uncivilized barbarians. You accuse me of not reading it, but you don't even know how the vikings were portrayed in it.

>>51034411
Clearly neither do you, since 'vikings' were never ever mentioned in the book as you describe...

>>51034697
Uh, yes they are. Odin comes up in the Clanbook. Unless you're not using the revised version.

>>51033730
ITT, nobody reads.

People who like 3e started with 3e.
People who started with 3e do no necessarily like 3e.
These conclusions are not opposed.

>>51034781
I started with 3e and like 3e.
However, I'm quite willing to admit it shortcomings, the same way that I like and can find the faults in other game systems.

I guess that doesn't contradict what you said, but being able to be objective is important.

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>>51033131
>People hold Pathfinder to a standard of game design and balance that literally didn't exist when 3.x first came out
No, Pathfinder writers said they'd fix everything people had been complaining about for years then they fucking didn't. Pic related.

And 3e didn't get balance anywhere close to right. There's a reason the meme of the CoDzilla existed because the cleric or druid were far better than the rest of the classes. There's threads and pdfs everywhere that attempt to fix the massive number of flaws present in the core book. Hell, some suggest throwing out the core PHB altogether and use the other material so don't pretend that the game got worse over time because if anything balance improved with classes from Weaboo Fightan Magic that made martials worth a damn.

I find it really strange how you say the game's being held to a standard that didn't exist then proceed to hold other games from the era to a standard that you claim didn't exist. I agree that oWoD was wonky and 3e GURPS had issues, but guess what they've evolved in the past 20 years. New generations of games that fix all the problems and gamers move on and don't want to go back to it. Pathfinder isn't hated because it's fanbase is vocal, it's hated because it has an enormous community using an archaic and flawed system with dozens of superior alternatives.

>>51034829
Just play 5e if you're in love with it and stop whining.

>>51015615

No shit

I was playing AD&D in the its heyday and 2nd ed was collapsing in on itself due to inept management by people that hated the hobby and its customers as well as a system that had long been horribly outdated.The only company that was close to pulling its weight was White Wolf which also made a horde of ill-advised decisions that torpedoed its survivability LONG before MMORPGs came along

>>51034829
>dozens of superior alternatives.
See >>51032040

Your issue with 'superior alternatives' is that for a lot of things outside the basic system, it doesn't exist. Being so popular and splat happy means they have a shear variety of content you don't see anywhere else. If you want something outside of basic fantasy, you're hard pressed to find anything, and if the flavor is more important to you than class balance, you're going to stick with the variety.

>>51034829
>it's hated because it has an enormous community using an archaic and flawed system with dozens of superior alternatives.
Being an asshole won't make them move to your system.

>>51034839
Not a fan of 5e either, but despite its blandness I can at least say it's designed competently.

>>51034853
I guess you havce a point there. I have read through some of 3e's later material and boy are there some weird ideas that are really enjoyable to read. It does look like fun to just see what crazy things can happen if you're using all of the stranger materials that got released. Still, if you want a game that incorporates that stuff I don't see why you can't use a better system and then add the content you want. Copying classes wholesale would be hard, but monsters, items, and settings would be much less work.

>>51034858
>responding to tone
But what I said is true, right? The damn thing's over 15 years old at this point so it's ancient considering the hobby's 40 years old. Everyone knows it's flawed too so don't pretend that's not false. And there are many other fantasy games are much better made and even games that directly improve on the 3e as in they literally use the OGL and make a new fantasy game that isn't totally fucked up in its rules and balance. How would you prefer I word these facts?

>>51034980
>I don't see why you can't use a better system and then add the content you want. Copying classes wholesale would be hard, but monsters, items, and settings would be much less work.
Classes are a vital part of the flavor. I wouldn't want to just SEE cool things. I'd want to play one. Being a fighter/wizard/rogue for the thousandth time is dead boring.

Also, while /tg/ might think otherwise, GMs willing to stat up and include a large variety of homebrew are very rare.

>>51034980
>OGL games
>Good

>>51011391

Fuck me that book was bad.

>>51034994
I was more thinking of restatting some of the crazy monsters they kept adding, but yeah, the classes are nuts so I can't really argue with that perspective. If you're going into it for the crazy and not the mechanics I can't argue with that at all. The fact that no other games have psionic classes is a damn shame.

>>51035002
I know you're meming, but there are some really good games that make a lot of changes to the base system. Fantasycraft and 13th age are the two fantasy games that immediately come to mind, but I'm sure there's others I'm forgetting at 3 AM.

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The book of vile darkness was so good but then the book of exalted deeds was so fucking bad.

>>51035065
I've had good experiences using mutants and masterminds for fantasy games.

>>51035152
Mutants and Masterminds is fairly droll in my experience. Maybe it's different for people who didn't grow up in contact with comic books.

>>51035118
Off the top of my head i can only think of 2 things the book of vile darkness did wrong.

I can think of only one good thing to have come out of the book of exalted deeds.

Im sure there were more flaws and cool stuff that i am forgeting but thats from what jumps to my memory

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>>51009801

Wasn't there a Nobilis or something book that had really shitty and obviously traced anime images that had to be taken down due to it for a bit?

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Remember all the butt hurt over this book?

>>51035240

See

>>51035419

The "artist" basically traced a bunch of anime shit from deviantart for the book. And it wasn't even good looking anime shit either.

>>51035419
no

>>51035419
What is it?

>>51027045
I actually really like TNE.

>>51035184
Top tier art though.
I swear, wizards have never looked wizardier than they did in the grand ages of AD&D.

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>>51035439
You missed some interesting threads

>>51035485
What is that.

>>51035523
DeviantArt-tier shit. And I'm not just talking about the art.

>>51035523
A page from Nobilis 3rd Edition.

>>51035552
>>51035659
Awful.

>>51027110
I will say I really liked the idea I got from some of it.

>Of COURSE some horny spellcaster has developed a Mage Hand-but with tactile feedback to grope people with.

>>51034853
>If you want something outside of basic fantasy, you're hard pressed to find anything
Either I'm misunderstanding you because I'm sleep deprived, or you should really actually look at what options there are. There's at least hundreds of options for systems that aren't basic fantasy.

>>51035419
Great concept and I really like the character creation. The art issue was fixed, too. Too bad I'll never find another soul willing to play it, let alone run it.

>>51027110
It was fairly inoffensive as a book, but who the hell would include anything from it in their games?

The "magic wand" section filled with dildos always cracks me up though.

>>51034333
It's a 900 page rape and autism fest- apparently almost every man over the age of 12 has participated in at least one gang rape of someone in his hometown. At least that's the clearest memory I have of it. Also the rules are obscenely and unnecessarily complex and dumb. It even has an alignment system. Don't even try, ami.

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Can someone show me the way to where I can find some rulebooks to download?

I'm completely fresh here and I feel like I need to analyse some of these artifacts before I can understand what's going on here.

I'd like to get a sense of what the /tg/ /rpg & boardgame scene is. Don't you guys have any informational charts and pics like /mu/ does?

ty in advance

>>51035951
There is a PDF share thread with a giant-ass collection of download links.

>>51035774
I did intend actual fantasy. Just not the stock type. So the scifi settings don't really apply.

>>51032814
>(including shit from WOW like that bullshit where a ranger has to SPEND AN
>ACTION for their animal (A SEPERATE SELF AWARE CREATURE (look nested parentheses)) to bite things.)

I thought WoW pets auto attack? Or did we loop back into some sort of "whatever 4e does, WoW surely does as well!" circular rage loop?

>>51015975
>It's also essentially just a pay-to-play set of house rules advertised as a whole new game
To be ENTIRELY fair, pretty much all Pathfinder content(excluding Golarion specific fluff) is available for free and legally in the SRD(s).

>>51036124
I haven't played for several expansions but after the first attack yeah they just auto-attack.

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>>51035161
>>51035152
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279503-D-amp-D-in-M-amp-M-a-new-approach-to-rebalancing-3-5-PF

Works fucking fantastically.

>>51033314
Coming off the back of a Pathfinder game: 5e is a fucking godsend by comparison. I like it for what it's worth; admittedly it's not perfect or does all the things I'd like as a player, but it's at least a 6/10 from me.

>>51032737
>Inconnu

Rebekah a cute

>>51032746
Dracula is hundreds of years old, he could have totally picked up Dominate/Presence and Protean while not ever developing his apptitude for viscisitude.

Haven't you ever read an elder NPC stat block? They tend not to just have clan specific disciplines.

>>51037629
>while not ever developing his apptitude for viscisitude.
Then he doesn't fit into Tzimisce at all. That's their entire thing.

>>51032040
I hate to be the "why not GURPS" guy but most generic systems will let you play just about anything you can up with. They probably won't give you cool character ideas, but you can get those elsewhere.

>>51032063
Some people are in that shit, anon. I've met people who believe that players knowing their characters' stats, knowing the system and rolling the dice ruins is detrimental to immersion and roleplay. I don't know.

>>51019288
3e attracted the worst kind of cancer to the community, and turned it fully into a soulless communities. It paved the path for corporate design games, modeled for completely predictable, non-challenging play experience perfectly slotted for 4-hour timeslots for conventions and game shop nights.

It was terrible to boardgames. But the OGL is responsible for the huge boom for indie publishers, and even more importantly, resulted in the OSR. things are looking up again after some very dark years.

>>51036124
Currently they auto attack. However if you want them to do something specific at a specific time, you'll need to click/use key binding to activate the ability. Otherwise they use their abilities when they "want" to.

I really don't understand the comparisons between 4e and WoW. There is almost nothing similar between the two outside of general fantasy tropes. You know, because one is a fucking video game.

>>51035783
What do you mean art got fixed?

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>>51035951
Actually you raise a good point. Why don't we have a pic for noobs in the hobby?

Give options for fantasy, sci-fi, supers, etc. along with a section for good books just for beginners in general. /tg/ may argue a lot, but I think that determining what rules are easy to get into should be something we can agree on.

This interests me. Maybe I'll make a thread on it later and whip up a prototype in paint.

>>51037660
>viscisitude is the entire point of the clan
>I've never heard of Culdonic sorcery, an option presented for characters to use instead of, or in addition to, vicissitude.>>51037660
>>51037660
>>51037660

>>51038405
You mean the discipline originally added with Old Clan Tzimisce?

>>51038477
That does nothing to answer the criticism that Old Clan were mechanically unecessary and you're entire argument is a very strict interpretation of the clans that has all members closely adhering to a cliched stereotype.

>>51038674
Before the introduction of Old Clan Tzimisce, there was a lack of a clan Dracula could fit into. Koldonic Sorcery was introduced with this clan and probably wouldn't exist without it. They're not from different splats so you can't divorce them from each other to say "Oh they just could've introduced x for y instead of z like it was intended."

>Your entire argument is a very strict interpretation of the clans.
Don't make it a generalist argument. It's of Gangrel, who are entirely made up of dirty, animalistic idiots. Not a regal and noble but bloodthirsty and manipulating king.

>>51011646
>>51020726
This surprised me, since I thought Birthright was newer than either of those series, so I looked it up.

It turns out Birthright was released in 1995, and A Game of Thrones publishedin 96, so it certainly could have been in the DNA of Martin's work although it seems like quite fast turnaround. The Valdemar series has been around since 1987, which isn't to say that later setting elements like that iron throne weren't inspired by Birthright.

>>51038724
Calling a whole clan a bunch of idiots when that's not represented in the fiction...

Ok.

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The edition is adequate, but only adequate, but this is by far the worst dmg wotc has released.

>>51038775
>that's not represented in the fiction...
Have you ever read any of it? Gangrel is always portrayed as barbarians and nomads and wannabe werewolves.

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In a game with a lot of broken supplements, this is the brokest. I should have thought twice before letting players use books I couldn't be arsed to read all the way through, but I expected at least the developers would playtest it.

>>51033518
What is a man? A miserable little pile of stereotypes!

>>51011844
Oh, you're a troll. Ok then.

>>51011175
>It further digs it's own grave by giving the other countries actual reasons for them adopting the governments it does while blindly highlighting the hypocrisy of the great magical PC nation, which engages in such atrocities as mind rape if you don't share their views.
Part of me think it could have been the writers writing a dystopia. Knowing it's target audience I'm fairly certain that was not the intent and they shot themselves in the foot in their own retardation. Either that or they think mindrape-enforced social order is an utopia. Considering the turn politics have take in the last few decades I'm thinking they seriously think this is how you write an utopia.

>>51036124
I'm talking about 5th edition dungeons and dragons. If you care to look in the player's handbook under ranger, it mentions the animal-companion path. In order to have your animal companian attack you need to spend a swift action. This means you cannot get an extra attack with two weapon fighting. It makes no sense that you have to focus wilpower on a well trained and loyal animal, just to make it attack a fleeing beggar.

>>51025197
the worst thing is that, for anything that requires additional resources, "popular" is actually a viable positive attribute.
diesel is objectively better than gasoline by most rubrics, but the fact that it can be slightly harder to find fuel for sale reduces it's viability.
If I buy an plan to play popular systems like WoD or DnD, I can guarantee I'll have players, shitty as they might be and miserable as the experience might be. But if I only want to play a FATE Game based on the Adventures of Corto Maltese, I might have a great time if I can get someone to do it, but I'm far less likely to have it happen.

So, is having a shitty campaign better or worse than no campaign?

>>51039291
>So, is having a shitty campaign better or worse than no campaign?
If you're GMing, definitely worse.

>>51027426
It does. I have it because alcohol does weird things to someone wanting to run a Redwall-esque game in 5e.
https://mega.nz/#!OocjGIzK!zttireDdgQqTgMy6tvxxG4RgRaFzulElx98ClIIVSKM

>>51035419
>Remember all the butt hurt over this book?
Of course I do.

I'm the one who stripped all the art out before the creator admitted what happened and put out a new version with non-infringing artwork.

>>51038401
>Actually you raise a good point. Why don't we have a pic for noobs in the hobby?
>Give options for fantasy, sci-fi, supers, etc. along with a section for good books just for beginners in general. /tg/ may argue a lot, but I think that determining what rules are easy to get into should be something we can agree on.
Make something and put it on 1d4chan so we can all complain about 1d4chan.

>>51039413
I've never gotten the hatred for 1d4Chan. I've always found it useful and humorous although it's clearly outdated and neglected.

Still, wouldn't a readily available newfag chart be useful?

>>51038401
I'm pretty sure we do have at least one pic like that.

>>51039090
dnd combat doesn't make "realistic" sense on any level. It's perfectly reasonable to make the animal companion ranger sacrifice personal actions, because controlling multiple characters on the field is a classic way to break the action economy. Additionally it makes you choose between one gimmick or another, which is generally a good thing for character diversity.

>>51039527
I've seen one for board games, but not one for tabletops in general.

>>51039565
>dnd combat doesn't make "realistic" sense on any level.
WotC D&D maybe, but TSR D&D made plenty of sense.
The sheer amount of abstraction certainly helped, but the real gem was "rounds represent minutes".

>>51034236

I was actually defending 3.0 more than Pathfinder. By the time pf came out, standards really had changed.

And what exactly did I say about those other games that I got wrong? I was friends with the WW devs and the fact that they often didn't playtest new rules was common knowledge. GURPS 3 was a mess, and the fans are first to admit it... That's why we have GURPS 4e.

And these were critiques the fans were levelling at the time. 3.x was a big fucking deal and deserved its accolades.

>>51039380
>Background Earthborn
>You about fantasy tropes And make meta-jokes all the fucking time

Fucking Genious!

>>51039380
Why are you worried about us judging you? Anonymity, et al.

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>>51038401

>>51038247
The whole fuss was that the artist they hired traced other peoples' work.

When they found out, they pulled the art and hired a new artist.

So the art issue got fixed.

>>51040816
Ha! That's pretty fun. I was more thinking of a guide for noobs like /lit/ or /mu/ have rather than a convoluted flowchart though.

>>51040816
Think that should be updated so D&D 5e, IKRPG, IKRPG Unleashed, and probably a ton more that I don't know off the top of my head.