What's the deal with Japanese archery? Does holding your

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It's just cooler, homie.

>>50816647
It has benefits for rapidly and accurately firing from horseback iirc, and samurai were horse archers soo

>>50816647
While I expect ceremony is a large part of it, it may also be due to the yumi's structure.

>>50816647
Maybe the same as English and their longbows: they just practiced a shitload. Every Sunday after Church in England people had to practice with the longbow, it was mandatory. Main thing I know about Japan is that they inherited/integrated the importance of horse archery (like the Mongols) into their training, despite the rather horse-unfriendliness of much of the country. Otherwise, I would say it's just cultural practice, practice, practice.

>>50816647
its effective. it works well with their bows. and like everything else in japan, doing things even slightly different to what you've been taught is absolutely haram desu.

>>50816725

This. It's basically the ONLY way to use a full-sized longbow(and these are LARGE examples of longbows) from horseback.

Also, archery is of RELIGIOUS significance in Japan, and so parts of Kyudo have evolved to be entirely aesthetic and ceremonial.

>>50816647
Kyudo is a sport. Like most modern martial arts in Japan it focuses more on form over function. This is because it was the only way they could convince the allied occupation to let them keep existing after WWII, and it just stuck.

Foreign karate practitioners, for example, will often struggle in Japanese competitions because points in Japan are awarded for perfection of form instead of just hitting the other guy successfully.

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>>50816647
Modern archery in Japan is very much an exercise in discipline and skill as opposed to a practical combat art. European archers use similar stances and techniques only they're less showy about it.

Combat archers from the far east and far west varied greatly because they were designed to counter different threats. The Europeans had longbows with very high draw weights to punch through lightly armored infantry and their draw techniques reflected that. I'm not too familiar with the Japanese, but from what I understand their archers were trained on mounted archery and was much different from the pic you linked.

>>50816647

Martial Arts are 50% Martial, 50% Art.

Half of what you learn (maybe) is applicable in a violent conflict. The other half is meant to instil discipline, muscle memory, values, impress spectators and be easy to teach en masse.

>>50816647
>Does holding your bow like that provide any benefit over the "normal" form?
It is not so much that they hold the bow differently, they just start the draw from that raised position. I'd assume the other Anons are correct that it provided some benefit either from the shape and construction of the bow and or to horse archery, but then again I don't believe other horse archer cultures did it the same way. So it is probably mostly stylized ritual, which is fine. The way to get gud at archery is to practice exactly the same way over and over and over, this style certainly fits that requirement.

Braised Scallops are not Sushi google

>>50816913
this guy right here knows whats up.

>>50816933
I mean, look at modern fencing. That won't save you in a street fight. It's a sport. It's a traditional sport, but still a sport.

>>50816933
Neither are goddamn ham spirals or lettuce wraps, but google's brainweb is constantly being fed wrong info to fit patterns, because fuck you, it needs patterns to "learn." Stupid in, stupid out.

>>50816933

Most other horse archer cultures figured out the recurve bow.

Japan, for whatever reason, decided to use gargantuan bamboo greatbows with virtually no recurve out of laminated bamboo.

>>50816647
First, it allows a shorter person to fire a larger bow. Larger bow, more pull. More pull, the faster the arrow is launched. Faster = greater force at impact.

Second, the bow design, being asymmetrical, allows people to use a larger bow while on horseback or even while kneeling. Therefore pulling the bow while arrow is overhead stops the bottom of the bow from fouling on reins, saddle, horse mane or whatever.

Third, training for fast release. Firing from a moving horse is nothing like standard aiming and shooting. As a matter of fact, you can't aim while riding at a full gallop without stirrups. And even then I would find it exceedingly difficult. Therefore you design a way to fire that doesn't require it. Then train and repeat said training until you can actually hit something without having to aim. You will also note that most Japanese mounted archery is not done in the Mongol style of sit back and fire, then withdraw. Instead the Japanese tended to try ride by firings at high speed. Almost like joust but with arrows. Much shorter range then Mongol style. Rapid, reliable fire is more important to such a style.

Fourth and final. Tradition. Japanese love their traditions. Once they find a way that works, they stick with it until forced to change. They as a culture love the idea of repetition until perfection is achieved.

>>50817063
>They as a culture love the idea of repetition until perfection is achieved
Half-Nip here, can confirm, if my mother is any indication. She's a very traditionalist kind of woman, very set in her ways, which were her family's ways, which were just the way things were. Literally the only nontraditional thing she's ever done was come here to the US for university and wind up marrying a white guy.

Having an oldschool weeb for a dad was fucking weird while growing up.

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>>50816647
>how do I bow

>>50816933
>I don't believe other horse archer cultures did it the same way

Most of them used much smaller bows. Raising the bow up high as you knock it helps you clear it from the horse.

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>>50817025
it might not have occurred to them to recurve because the bow they had was good enough.

bamboo is some pretty awesome stuff.
still like the western short-bows more myself though.

like what this fellow is carrying, big enough to kill some dinner or defend the homestead and the flock/herd with but not large enough that it gets caught in doors or on clothes or other things.

>>50817248
That's the proper form in Japanese archery. You are supposed to allow the bow to rotate in your hand as you release the arrow.

>>50817248

of course they made the girl do that part

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>>50816647

Like this.

>>50817855
Points deducted for failing to have arm fully outstretched and failing to have any rotation of the bow.

The sport of kyudo is entirely about form, even hitting the target is secondary.

>>50816829
Ahem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcpHB-flwJQ

>>50817903

That's what caught me off-guard watching the sport in action. The winner of the horseback round struck only two of his targets on his best pass, whereas another got three, but had errors in form. Kind of speaks to the extent to which longbow archery went from military science to martial art to just shy of a religious practise.

Although I definitely see the training benefits of many of the forms. Espcially the particular competition that was about how many arrows you could have hit the same target in 24 hours. Toshiya, I think? It seems silly, but it was an excellent practise of consistent targeting, ability to continuously draw and loose for long periods of time, and just sheer physical stamina. Practising for a competition would make one a very good archer. Apparently the record holder got like 8000 hits out of 13000 shots at 120 metres. Even setting the accuracy aside, managing to loose 13000 arrows is something I can't process.

>>50816647
Their bows are asymmetric since japs can't into bow making.
Thus the specialized stance.

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>>50816647
The yumi is specifically designed as a horsebow, hence the uneven design.

Lifting it up on the span, and moving it over on the draw, allows a full draw while sitting on a horse.

next question

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>>50818293

>>50818293
>Can't into bow making
It's literally a specially designed bow for rapid firing from horseback. It is literally purpose made just for that.

What the Japanese can't into is Change on a societal level.

>>50818676
>What the Japanese can't into is Change on a societal level.
You mean like 'murrican Baby Boomers?

>>50818880
Worse. Boomers were actively encouraged to pursue goals for themselves.

>>50816647
The bow is balanced in such way it's pretty much counter-productive to shoot it "normally". Also, the bow was originally used to shoot from horseback.

>>50816647
Look at the size of the bows.
Try drawing them via any other pose, it can be tricky.

>>50818676
>What the Japanese can't into is Change on a societal level.
But it's simple. Just do the revolution. And remember to call it "restoration" instead.
Alternatively, nuke them.

>>50819065
That's exactly what I'm talking about. Japan doesn't ever do the whole "gradual advancement of society" as an ongoing process. If shit works, they just keep doing it until something comes along that forces them to go all "Grorious Nippon" and radically shift from one way of life to the another within a matter of a few short years. It's how you go from feudal shithole rice fields and matchlocks to full 20th century industrialization overnight, but why they still have a fucking Whaling industry.

>>50819142
You do realize that the Japanese were kept abreast of firearms technology throughout the Edo period, right?
They didn't just keep using matchlock rifles until 1868.

>>50819300
That was an exaggeration on my part, you understood my point.

>>50819319
Yeah, after I posted I thought that I should have included a bit where I do mostly agree with what you said. It's just my autism speaking

I remember when I lived in Japan and didn't realize at first what was the deal with all the schoolgirls walking around with those huge ass ridiculous thin boxes on their backs. Turns out they were carrying their bows.

So who's going to preserve Japanese culture now that they're going to just give up and stop having kids?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkcKaNqfykg

>>50819692
Weebs.

Actually important question

Samurai were originally a class of horsearchers and spearmen

Why the fuck did an Island filled with mountains and horse-unfriendly terrain get dominated by a cavalry warrior class

>>50816725
>horse archers
>almost no flat plains

Superior Nippon tactics folded over 1000 times

>>50820004
The Japanese aren't particularly known for practicality. Efficiency, sure, but not practicality.

>>50819972
Samurai is just another word for armed nobility military.
I am sure you have the intelligence to inference the rest.

>>50819972
Logic doesn't apply in Japan

>>50819142
There is nothing wrong with commercial whaling desu, really the only problem with Japanese whaling practices is that they're trying to camouflage it as scientific whaling.

>>50819692
I'm sure that there are plenty of other remote islands that also practice cannibalism&incest.

>>50819972
A man on a horse can still dominate a man on the ground even in small fields. The samurai were the upper class and were just the people who could afford horses. The vast majority of an army wasn't riders. I imagine part of it is cultural, tied to them importing much of it from China.

>>50820033
One only needs to take a look at their performance during WW2 to see this.

>>50820024
Japs are basically the faggots who go Lawful Good Paladin in the Evil campaign. Or the Cleric who only preps Turn Undead for wolf-slaying

>>50817248
Don't know much about Japanese style, huh?

>>50820036
As far as I know, whaling barely if ever turns a profit in this day and age and not just because there are a lot of laws around it. There's very few whale products in demand and it's a highly labor intensive business. Whaling is largely used as a bribery/money laundering scheme for dirty officials in Japan, at least as far as I know.

>>50816647
Disgraceful.
More evidence that feudal japan would auto-lose any battle against medieval Englishmen. Could the Shogun muster several thousand stout yeomen all trained and armed with longbows? No. All he could muster were untrained rice-workers and horse thieves to support his handful of fighting men and their aides.

>>50820078
I mean, feudal Japan could muster rifle men. So they'd have that over the Eternal Anglo.

>>50820036
Nothing morally wrong with whaling, but it's archaic as fuck, which was my point. The modern world says "no whaling," and Grorious Nippon responds with "but our history, desu" and continues to whale.

>>50820094
Not the anon you're responding to, but arquebuses weren't rifled.

>>50820115
You know damn well what I meant. Hand guns are rifled but we don't call them rifles.

>>50820115
Technically correct. Not actually refuting anything, just commenting on a tangent.
>>50820124
Long firearms without rifling have a name, carbines; but you're not referring to the guns themselves, but the soldiers who shot them. There's a term for those, too: arquebusiers.

>>50820146
>my little anon can't be this autistic!

>>50820146
I thought carbines were shorter firearms occupying a sort of intermediate step between full long guns and pistols, and rifling wasn't a factor in the classification?

>>50820157
>Pedantry is autism
Powerfully stupid, desu.

>>50820146
>carbines don't have rifling

I'm sorry what? Carbines are just shortened versions of long arms.

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>>50820004
>almost no flat plains
Those few flat plains are where almost everybody lives though. Just like how the relatively mountainous France (though not to the same extent of Japan to be fair) became the shining jewel of chivalry.

>>50820146
Longarms with no rifling are muskets, famalam. Carbines are simply short barreled longarms, regardless of rifling.

>>50820146
Neck yourself

>>50820168
Because it's not part of the classification. The other anon is just stupid.

>>50820004
Still good enough against MOUNTAIN-dwelling Enishi.

Also
>England
>All flat plains
>Shitheads never developed any cavalry
vs
>Poles
>All flat plains
>Shitheads developed ONLY cavalry

So nice geographical determinism you have there, moron.

>>50820210
>neck yourself
I assume in some part of the world this means "hang yourself" and not "make out with yourself."

>>50820232
Your assumption is correct, now continue with dying

>>50820218
Are you seriously trying to mock Polish calvary? Go watch anime instead of trying to defend Japan with that shit, weeaboo

>>50820174
Damn, they all really do live in Tokyo.

>>50820157
Rude.
>>50820168
Correct understanding of carbine, but lacking the correct term for the general category to which arquebuses refer, smoothbores.
>>50820171
Close enough that I'll let it pass. Carbines are considered long arm firearms.
>>50820202
There are many different types of longarms without rifling, including shotguns and the aforementioned arquebuses. Polite.
>>50820247
Psst. Not everyone curious about regional differences in language is that one guy. I'm glad you don't actually have the power to wreak ill on anonymous posters on the internet, your false positives would do quite a bit of harm.

>>50820266
I'm a Pole, that's for starters. Second, work on your reading comprehension, you fucking cunt.

>>50819972
Because Nobody lives in the mountains.

>>50816647

Archer who doesn't practice Japanese archery here.

Just wanted to let you know that that method of draw allows you to PUSH with the arm holding the bow while PULLING with the arm holding the arrow, as seen in >>50817855

Now, practicality-wise, I can't tell you if there's any benefit to doing that when you're trying to kill someone. It helps you from keeping one arm from tiring out, though, so there's that.

>>50820768
>shoot more arrows before you get tired
Seems beneficial enough.

>>50816913
Martial arts are 100/100 martial. Even the weirdest movement has an actual application to real life situations. Sometimes it is heavily coated in a martial art's aesthetic, but at the core there is no useless movement in any kung fu routine, japanese kata, or any other sort of fighting technique.

>>50820218
Also
>Spaniards
>develop the tercio
>literally the worst formation you could use in the mountains of Spain
>but it's fucking God-tier in France

>>50820828
>Sometimes it is heavily coated in a martial art's aesthetic
The "art", you might call it.

Also you're full of shit.

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>>50820844
>literally the worst formation you could use in the mountains of Spain
How is pike-and-shot useless in hilly, mountainous land where you can easily cover your flanks?

>>50820963
Tercios aren't just any pike-and-shot. It's a particularly massive, clumped-together, extremely unmanoeuvrable type of pike-and-shot.

>>50820974
Also the whole point of them is to cover your flanks.

Reminder that the Japanese used asymetric bows long before they switched to horse archery.

Reminder that other people are using asymetric bows as well. It's far from unique.

>>50821028
I thought the whole point was to tarpit the enemy in your flanks so you can pick them off with cavalry you have hiding somewhere nearby?

>>50820218
>never developed any cavalry
what the fuck are you smoking you polish bastard.

>>50816647
japs are fucking tiny, gnomes would probably use bows in the same way

>>50821115
The point of the tercio is to protect guns from cavalry (and other soldiery) with pikes, and to protect pikes with guns. So your guns fire, and then if people attack the tercio the guns all get behind the pikes, and the pikes rek shit.

Because of the dragon-tooth formation other tercios will now begin firing into the people attacking the first tercio, and yes, into the flanks. But this is just a way of preventing people from attacking the flanks; they would get shot to pieces. And the pikes were there in the first place to protect the first tercio's flanks. The tercio is a very defensive formation.

You also have stuff like halberdiers/zweihanders/rodeleros to play a supplementary role, breaking up push-of-pike, and cavalry as a primarily counter-cavalry measure among other things, but those are the less integral parts of tercio.
>>50821159
He's not saying the English literally never had cavalry you immense mongoose. He's saying we focused on infantry tactics, which is true. The English usually fought on foot, with bills and in specialised armour, and surrounded by bows/guns -- it was actually proto-pike-and-shot.

>>50821179
well excuse me for interpreting what he said literally, especially when he used the word "never" when calling out the English

>>50821202
>well excuse me for interpreting what he said literally
I keep forgetting the high density of autists on this board.

>>50821212
>England
>All flat plains
>Shitheads never developed any cavalry
Come one, it was an entirely reasonable assumption. You're the one defending it, if anything.

>>50821219
Assuming someone else mad an unreasonable assumption is not reasonable. If someone says something that sounds incredibly stupid (like, I dunno, "England never had any cavalry EVER"), they probably didn't actually say it.

>>50821227
>actual retard logic

>>50821271
>of course I can't misread a comment. It's much more likely everyone else is just completely retarded.

>>50816841
Karate will be in the Tokyo Olympics, so I do wonder how this is going to go.

>>50818293
Funny thing, in the 12 in FBI penetration test the Yumi passed it and the longbow didn't, surprised face on the British bowmen in that test.

>>50821361
But muh folded 1000 times yew bow!

>>50821361
>surprised face on the British bowmen in that test.
Yeah I'm assuming that's bullshit.

>>50819972
There's a part of my country known for their awesome and wild horses and their militia on horseback back to the Roman times, it's also fucking muntany and rainy as fuck to the point even today is hard as fuck to bring roadways and trains there.

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>>50816647
It balances the use of your back muscles allowing a weaker person to pull a higher pounding of bow than they would manage using the western style.

In western style you hold the bow with your weak arm then pull the string back with your strong arm and it is kind of like starting a lawnmower, some people would argue the western style is more efficient because your strong side is worked harder. Also many coaches think the method in OP's pic is not as safe(maybe a throwback from formation archery) because if you fuck up your arrow is already horizontal/pointing slightly up.

The form in your pic is actually terrible for accuracy, they don't have good stances or any anchors, Korean archery is vastly superior to Japanese archery.

PS I am no good at archery but have trained with the UK olympic team and one of the best longbow coaches on the planet (geographic luck).

>>50820844
Europeans are like rock paper scissors, Spain > France > Germany > Britain > Spain

>>50820768
See
>>50821429

Why is /tg/ being so retarded? Horses aren't useful for massive charges on plains only, they massively increase your strategic and tactical mobility.

>>50821361
I call bullshit on that, no bow is better than the British longbow, the only one that can pierce full plate.

>>50820915
I am full of experience, but please, disregard my decades-long practice because of your cursory knowledge. I bet you look at modern wushu thinking it is a silly ballet or something.

>>50821476
On the other hand the Swiss pikes could keep up with cavalry in their mountainous terrain.

But what you're saying is actually the whole point. There's more to determining strategies/tactics than -simplistic- environmental determinism.

>>50821486
The British longbow isn't great tbqh senpai.
The reason for its place in history is that they were easily and cheaply made and every man in the UK had to train with them for 2 hours a week or be fined. This meant your average British peasant archer was a fucking murder machine compared to continental peasant archers.

>>50821502
I sure as hell look at modern Taekwondo thinking it's not at all related to fucking someone up IRL.

>>50820915
>making a technique pleasing to the eye makes it less of an effective technique
Kek

>>50821531
And you would be wrong.

>>50821547
no u

>>50821549
Compelling argument, mate. But as >>50821534
Points out, making a movement look good doesn't mean it is now 50 movement and 50 aesthetic.

>>50821562
>compelling argument, mate
Dip.
>making a movement look good doesn't mean it is now 50 movement and 50 aesthetic.
But that's wrong you tremendous faggot. Considering the aesthetic of a movement as equally as the function of the movement means the system is now artistic as well as martial.

>>50821576
M8, maybe you should stop triggering wannabe bruce lees, their lives are already hard enough without you reminding them of the fact that having taken one karate course while you're in high school doesn't make you a badass killing machine.

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>>50821486
>the only one that can pierce full plate
As proven by the battle of Agincourt, where French knights in full plate were peppered with longbow arrows and all of them instantly died on the spot. Except they didn't, and the battle was famous for how many knights were captured alive that day. You don't really tend to capture knights alive after they've been riddled by armor piercing machinegun arrows.

Another argument against your utterly retarded, nationalist-revisionist thesis: the English Civil War. Both sides used longbows, both sides used men-at-arms in full plate. If longbows could even remotely reliably penetrate armor and if both sides were using them, why even bother with armor in the first place? Why not just have two sides using proto-machineguns with a few cavalrymen here and there to pick off stragglers?

Only high poundage crossbows could penetrate full plate, and even then only at closer ranges (ie. either you hit the knight in the face or you're fucked ranges).

>>50821576
Not true. The aesthetic of a movement is separated from ts acual effectiveness and adding aesthetic doesn't, again, endanger the effectiveness of a technique. You would know if you practiced.

>>50821603
>the English Civil War. Both sides used longbows, both sides used men-at-arms in full plate.
WHAT

>>50821603
>questioning the katana of bows

Be prepared for 2k word rant about how a trained longbowman could take on a main battle tank and win.

>>50821603
>>50821612
Wait you mean the Wars of the Roses.

>>50821603
Fuck off, weeb, your bow is a shit that barely can go through a strawman, come back when you won something instead of gutting yoursefl over shamefur display.

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>>50821486
t. Lindybeige

>>50821631
>>50821612
>Wait you mean the Wars of the Roses.
Yeah, I did. My bad. I fucked up. It was English and it was a civil war, so I turned it into the English Civil War.

>>50821611
lrn2read. We're not talking about effectiveness, we're talking about whether a system is martial or also artistic.

But of course it's less effective. Either it takes longer or it takes more thought or it takes more space or it does SOMETHING that is not as efficient as the most efficient way, i.e. the way considering function only.

>>50816841
Eh, there are plenty of non-japanese athletes getting pretty good results from quite a long time, especially in kumite, where even third worlders (especially third worders) shine a lot more than them.
>>50821343
Have they resolved the issue about the fracturing of the various styles that goes on since the beginning in order to have a fairer judging of the various forms in competition? Who am I kidding, it's gonna be all shotokan with the token inclusion of some of the other styles' kata.

>>50821643
But that doesn't add up. Look and effectiveness are not on the same track, they are not mutually exclusive. You can perform the same technique in the hard-canon shaolin way or the weirdest mantis style or the most flowery modern changquan, and the look of it wouldn't make the technique any different once you apply it.

>>50821665
>shotokan
That's the more pragmatic, less formalistic, actually-supposed-to-be-used-in-combat school, right?

>>50821665
Russians are awfully good at a number of fighting disciplines, actually. Germans are no slouches too.

>>50821674
Yes, also a meme style that only spams dragon punches.

>>50821672
>Look and effectiveness are not on the same track, they are not mutually exclusive.
They are. They both modify the same thing: the movement. And the movement has one, most-effective form. If you modify this form in any way, it is no longer as effective as it could be.

This doesn't mean that there's one super-move or some bullshit like that. Obviously there can be lots of different, similar moves, all doing slightly different things. That's not the point. The point is that by considering something other than effectiveness, you are naturally going to lower effectiveness.

>>50821687
What part of third worlders didn't you understand?

>>50821674
There are like, 5 styles of karate, and they are more or less all the same as far as practicality goes. Karate has a rock solid canon, unlike kung fu where you have 2000 schools all doin a different variant of the same thing.

Hasn't the sniper english longbow meme been killed off already? The mud and rain were the biggest factor in victory on Agincourt.

Any continental medieval king who gets his peasants to invest in archery would lose most of the wars they fight against masses of men at arms with minimal bow support.

>>50816753
>Every Sunday after Church in England people had to practice with the longbow, it was mandatory

Enshrined into law so we had a highly-trained force of archers available, capable of putting an arrow through a layer of steel plate, a knight's leg, another layer of steel plate, warhorse barding, and well into the horse.
They've found horses with riders on killed in such a way, with the arrow still there.

>>50821732
>Hasn't the sniper english longbow meme been killed off already?
About 600 years ago, I'd say. The problem is that the Hundred Years War is so pivotal in the creation of English identity that it gets glorified to hell and back. Even the French barely care for it except the parts where a literal saint intervened (and even then between her death and Napoleon reviving her relevance, most Frenchmen had stopped caring).

>>50821701
And that is apparently when we differ. Time of training, as you mentioned before, is not an issue, you are not going to start learning the most flowery stuff right off the bat anyway. Now each style puts the accent on a different aspect of the execution, but when it boils down to to it, the technique hidden inside a movement is always the same. Sure, you are never going to apply it in the same way you would during a routine, but that is because a routine is supposed to codify a movement and add the aesthetic/exercise to it. It doesn't damage the technique at its core, just builds something all over it.

>>50821732
The bowmen allowed the English to compound French disadvantages, and finish them off with the armoured dedicated footmen. It's not bows that allowed the English to win; it was a more balanced combined arms (the French were a lot -less- combined, though still combined -- for example, they left Genoese crossbowmen on their own).

>>50821732
Look at this revisionist piece of shit

>>50821759

How much of France did the English lose at the end of the 100 years war again? Nice bows you got there.

>>50821746
>They've found horses with riders on killed in such a way, with the arrow still there.
[citation needed]

>>50821746
>They've found horses with riders on killed in such a way, with the arrow still there.
Are you telling me that the English just left a well-armored French Gendarme and his (most likely barded) horse unmolested and unlooted after they died? Or that the French just decided to bury their comrade with his horse still attached instead of, you know, separating the 240-pound man from the 400-pound horse?

Sounds like bullshit.

>>50816913
Pretty much. The key to success is realising what you can use in a fight, and what you shouldn't.
Back when I actively trained in karate, I ended up developing my own style for sparring. Mostly based around what was useful for my body type, since I'm male and too slim and light to resist being shoved.
I ended up cribbing from female self-defence bits, stealing techniques women use to overcome male upper-body strength, and just taking advantage of having longer reach than everyone else.
I regret having to give it up, but working started taking all my energy, and it was really aggravating a shoulder injury.

>>50816977
It'll save you if you spear the other guy quickly enough.

>>50820004
>Superior Nippon tactics folded over 1000 times
Works fine for galloping through a village sticking arrows into anyone not on a horse.

>>50820828
>kata
Kata were apparently developed as fighting styles in and of themselves, put into a sequence for ease of teaching.
Or rather, I was told that while being taught them, it made sense to me, and I was able to steal bits of them for use in sparring.

The amount of weebs in here denying the vast power of English longbow is astounding, go read an actual history book and stop watching animoo.

>>50821867
Yeah it's not that i don't believe the killing. Just that i don't believe a full equipped knight would be found dead without being looted to hell.

>>50821879
Katas are just that, quick exercises to improve muscle memory, some of them work pretty damn fine in real life.

>>50821641
>it was a civil war,
It was NOT a civil war. It was a war, in england, between english people, but it was not a civil war. It was not a split of a nation, because there was no nation of 'England' at the time. They were fighting with the aim of establishing one.
Ended in a draw, technically. Treaty signed, marriage arranged for Henry VII (Or VI; I don't really remember which), Yorkshire and Lancashire still hate each other's guts.

>>50821665
>Have they resolved the issue about the fracturing of the various styles that goes on since the beginning in order to have a fairer judging of the various forms in competition?
No. Every time someone gets enough new ideas, they splinter off and declare a new style.
Or when someone wants to turn karate into a glorified pyramid scheme to bring it to the western masses. Which, to his credit, DID work, even if the system treated employees like slaves. (Took the style for years, tried to sell it, failed, got a real job instead)

>>50821879
>Back when I actively trained in karate, I ended up developing my own style for sparring
interestingly this is the exact reason that so many oddly-specific and competing kung-fu schools exist. This sort of attitude is actively encouraged in a lot of martial arts which leads to several offshoots from every school as people alter it to suit themselves and then teach their version under a slightly different name.

>>50820828

Wrong. Many Buddhist martial arts were created to mimic combat but had the SOLE PURPOSE of teaching physical/mental discipline or invoking spirits before battle.

>>50821879
That is what a kata is. A string of techniques, coded for learning, just like routines in kung fu. Some are more good looking and some are less, but none makes a movement that you would call useless.

>>50821958
>but none makes a movement that you would call useless.
All of them do though, it's called the salute

>>50821951
Wrong, those fighting techiques predate the monks. Organizing them and giving them names is not the same as inventing them, and it doesn't matter WHY you do them: they are fihting techniques, and you would be hard pressed to find a movement in those martial arts that can not be applied.

>>50821867
>Are you telling me that the English just left a well-armored French Gendarme and his (most likely barded) horse unmolested and unlooted after they died?
IIRC, they found them significantly deep, where they had sunk into the mud. 240lb man plus armour plus horse plus armour, plus muddy field. It'd just take a covering of mud for him to be ignored by looters, and the field was plowed over afterwards.

Consider also that we're still pulling WW2 tanks and aircraft out of swamps and old forests, and off the seabed. You'd think they'd have been salvaged, particularly towards the close of the war, but nope.

Europe is full of the remains of warfare if you start digging.
In britain, it's even dangerous to do amateur metal detecting, in case you find an armed Luftwaffe bomb. Airport expansions are often stopped by the finding of one, or of a huge explosive charge they put under the runway in case of invasion and then forgot about.

>>50821958
>but none makes a movement that you would call useless
Only after you study it. Even then, it's debatable what any of them even MEAN. For example, are you tearing someone's genitals off, or his nose after knocking him to the floor with a previous move?

>>50821991
I could see that being the case, but I'd still like a citation of some sort before taking what the anon says about an arrow penetrating two layers of steel and a leg at face value.

>>50822019
Either. There is a lot of movements that have more than an application.

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So the traditional Japanese draw is just a weirder Mongolian draw? I never understood why every artist draws a pinch style draw instead of Mediterranean or Mongolian. Maybe they never had a steppe waifu to show them a more comfortable draw style.

>>50821943
>It was NOT a civil war.
Friend, if the Romans can have a civil war than so can England.

>because there was no nation of 'England' at the time.
But there was a Kingdom of England, and two domestic houses dividing the nation in their struggle for the throne.

But don't take my word for it, take the word of the Encyclopaedia Britannica: a well-respected and English-written encyclopedia.
https://www.britannica.com/event/Wars-of-the-Roses
>Wars of the Roses, (1455–85), in English history, the series of dynastic civil wars whose violence and civil strife preceded the strong government of the Tudors. Fought between the Houses of Lancaster and York for the English throne, the wars were named many years afterward from the supposed badges of the contending parties: the white rose of York and the red of Lancaster.
>the series of dynastic civil wars
>dynastic civil wars
>civil wars
But go ahead and change the definition of what a civil war is if you want. Let me help you by telling you what the currently accepted definition is, so you have a launching platform for your mental gymnastics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_war
>James Fearon, a scholar of civil wars at Stanford University, defines a civil war as "a violent conflict within a country fought by organized groups that aim to take power at the center or in a region, or to change government policies".

Let's analyze the war of the roses in that light.
>a violent conflict
Check
>within a country
Check, that country being England
>fought by organized groups
Two noble houses, that's a check
>that aim to take power at the center or in a region
The struggle was around the throne of England, so that's one hell of a check.

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>>50822039
>Maybe they never had a steppe waifu to show them a more comfortable draw style.
I can think of much more pleasurable things to do with a steppe waifu.

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>>50822072
Falconry?

>>50822103
Embroidery, you double nigger. You can't do falconry when it's cold and wet, but you can sit around a cozy fire and do embroidery.

>>50819972
If you're a warrior from the social elites, why on earth would you walk like a peasant?

>>50822039
Well, same way western media occasionally shows eastern archers with Mediterranean draws, Japanese fuck up non-Japanese archery. I.e. sometimes they show Chinese or European archers allowing their bows to swinging inverted like in Kyudo (see >>50817248). You can see an example here
>https://youtu.be/XmT4hyJGK2A?t=1m2s
where the bow swings outwards in what should be a European RPG setting. iirc Yokoyama Mitsuteru is also guilty of this too, particularly in his RoTK manga.

>>50821611
No, considering the aesthetics of the movement at all is what makes it an "art", as do the rules inherent in the competitions.

Compare it to fighting styles like Defendu or Krav Maga, which don't give a fuck about aesthetics, all they care about is fucking the other guy up as efficiently and safely as possible.

>>50822158
But I find Krav Maga aeshetically pleasing, that means it's 50% martial and 50% art so no 100% efficient.

>>50822181
Krav Maga doesn't give a fuck about what you think. Its entire purpose is to fuck the other guy up as quickly as possible, with no thought spared for aesthetics. If something is less that perfectly efficient, it gets discarded and replaced with something better.

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>>50819972
Horses aren't cars. Sure, they need reasonably flat ground in a charge, but unless you're straight up trying to climb a mountain, horses are still usable on hills and foothills.

>>50822209
>Swadian_army_in_Rhodok_territory.jpg

>>50822158
Did you ever watch sanda or shuaijiao? They are chinese fighting with no flowery handwaving. Now, every single move taught by every single style of kung fu is applied in sanda or shuaijiao. Just because they are flowery it doesn't mean they do not work in the same fucking way, you learn them by doing the flowery routine, then you apply them in the gritty way.

>>50820844
>spain
>mountains

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>>50822242
Didn't you know, Spain's entire territory consists of the Pyrenees.

>>50822023
I don't remember where I saw it. I know it was from a documentary, but I don't remember where I saw it.

>>50822055
The English Civil War was later, and still very relevant today because of the ground rules it established between Parliament and the Crown.
IE, the monarch reigns, but doesn't actually do any ruling, and if they claim they have a diving right to do ANYTHING, it's off to the chopping block again because we still have the axe.
And that was THE English Civil War.

>>50822209
Huh. Skyrim's horse physics have basis in reality?

>>50822206
Krav Maga is relatively new. It'll be stylised after a few centures, mark my words.

>>50821435
That's stupid memes, France was the real enemy of Spain and the one who defeated it. And when did England defeat Spain? The armada doesn't count, the english launched one too and they were defeated by fishers and women instead of swords.

It's actually England > France > Spain > England if we look at events like the aforementioned english armada or the battle of Cartagena. But actually the real solution is not to use retarded rankings

>>50822242
>>50822251
Spain actually has five mountains ranges and most of middle of the country is mountainous or rocky. Look at a topogrpahical map sometime.

>>50820266
are you retarded?

>>50816710
That actually as a reason, just not with glocks.

Originally, it started in East Asia with motorcycle drive bys using Uzis. Two bangers pull up on a bike next to their target. The shooter would start shooting at the target with the recoil spreading the shots because it was sideways.

>>50822289
>expecting americans to know about european geography

>>50816647
>Does holding your bow like that provide any benefit over the "normal" form?
I'm pretty sure they are holding their bows like that to show-off.

>>50822209
*record scratch* you might be wondering how I got into this mess, it wasn't always like this, it all started when the Germans took the Rhine...

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>>50822242
>>50822251
Jesus fucking Christ.

>>50821867
Frank alwayd wanted to be Centaur they granted his wish after life.

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>>50822242
You get it? white = plains, right? I'm so awesome

>>50822272
Dunno if butthurt frog or butthurt spic

>>50821674
It's the one that got teached in universities, creating a solid generation of masters that subsequently went all around and outside the country to teach it themselves. So basically, it's popular and relatively standardized.

>>50821884
Don't be sad anon, the english longbow and the yumi are both shit.

>using long bows
>ever

>>50822228
You fight like you train. If you train with flowery bullshit, then that's probably how you'll instinctively react in a real fight once the adrenaline starts flowing, and even if you don't, then the flowery bullshit is just a waste of time in any case.

>>50822256
>Krav Maga is relatively new. It'll be stylised after a few centures, mark my words.
The vast majority of them refuse to get involved in competitions because it's against the philosophy of the martial art: it's not a sport, it's not an art form, it's a method of fighting that's designed to fuck people up as quickly and efficiently as possible.

>>50822474
I really can't hear either of them over the sound of my recurve composite bow. I just hear the lamentations of their women.

>>50822488
>it's against the philosophy of the martial art
and how long do you think that philosophy will last, the more people learn it the weaker those sorts of ideas become

>>50821435
>Britain > Germany
Wat?

>>50822256
>And that was THE English Civil War.

Plenty of nations have THE civil war, and then other civil wars with different names. England is no different.

>>50822422
t. Butthurt angloboy

>>50822496
This guy knows. Great Khan's return soon, fellah.

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>>50822206
You're right, but that's not just Krav Maga. Most practical/not shitty martial arts have that philosophy, it's just that they approach it from different directions. E.g. Jiujutsu is about pinning someone as fast/efficiently and possible (and possibly breaking a bone with the least amount of effort).

>>50820915
Anon, you are triggering me so hard right now. It's called an "art" because it requires skill and study, but also allows room for creativity and individual expression.
You realize pic related is martial arts, yes?
Just because you find something aesthetic doesn't mean that thing gives a shit. I find a falcon's dive aesthetic, but that doesn't mean it gives thought to art over brutal efficiency.
If you use inefficient techniques you get beaten. It's really that fucking simple.

Just checking, but people are aware that the Japanese had tiny, teeny horses right? Not the gigantic monsters used by Euro knights.

>>50822654
We're talking about changing your moves in order to make them more aesthetic. It's not some unconscious side-effect.

>>50822742
Everybody had teeny tiny horses compared to Europe.

>>50822654
Modern martial arts fanboys (whether it's Krav Maga or SCARS or whathaveyou) act under the consistent delusion that only their chosen art has figured out the impossible secret of "ditch the sissy fancy moves and fuck the other guy up first", without realizing that it's what humans have been trying to do ever since they started codifying combat systems both armed and unarmed. The "sissy fancy moves" are stylized versions of actions that were completely necessary at the time, but no one sat down to create pretty useless motions unless they were doing stage fighting (its own art) or dancing.

>>50822742
And Japs are a race of midgets so it more or less balances it out.

>gigantic monsters
15 - 16 hands isn't especially massive desu.

>>50822827
Yeah, at the time. In the same way fencing was about fucking someone up with a sword, at the time.

>>50822790
Sure. It's also not something a martial art does.
Fluidity and efficiency of movement is aesthetically pleasing. This may or may not be an accident (I don't know, for example, if we're genetically encoded to derive pleasure from them), but aesthetic is not the purpose of fluidity and efficiency of movement.
Seriously, show me a single instance of a form or movement in jiujutsu, boxing, wrestling, tae kwon do, or shit, even karate, where anything about that form or movement isn't 100% about efficiency.

>>50822827
Fucking this. I won't deny that Brazilian Jiujutsu or Krav Maga seem to be better than Sumo in single combat, but Sumo was originally developed to win fights.
Even purely sport martial arts (modern sumo, fencing, arguably judo) are still 100% about efficiency within their context.

>>50822827
>but no one sat down to create pretty useless motions
people do that what are you on man

>>50822871
lol butthurt weeb unable to accept his martial """art"""'s context is showing off

why do they grade by aesthetics?

>>50822901
>why do they grade by aesthetics?
Depending on the school they don't. How much focus is put on form vs function has much more to do with the teacher than the martial arts being done

>>50822901
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/art#Etymology_1
>(countable) Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation.

>>50822853
And we have historical evidence in the form of fechtbuchs, treatises and manuals of people (at the time) ditching what they thought was useless floriture to fuck someone up with a sword in a more efficient manner.

>>50822901
Who is this "they"? And do "they" grade by aesthetics or by FORM?

Also, if I was a weeabo I would have suggested kung fu or some shit.

>>50822942
In battle, form follows function. When placing emphasis on form, it's a philosophy that ultimately is concerned with attaining proper function.

>>50822951
Exactly. If you didn't ditch what is useless in swordplay, you literally died. That tends to be a strong motivator for people.

>>50822947
Next time use Oxford because it's not publicly-editable, but basically, yes.

>>50822964
>In battle, form follows function
Exactly.
>When placing emphasis on form, it's a philosophy that ultimately is concerned with attaining proper function.
Nope. Attaining the form of something is not the same as attaining the function of something -- i.e. appearing like something is not the same as being something.

>>50823027
>Attaining the form of something is not the same as attaining the function of something
Only if the form is insufficiently described.

>>50822871
Sumo is interesting because while it has several rituals like the dohyo-iri that have nothing to do with fighting, it explicitly does not reward fighters for aesthetic motion. Your rank as a rikishi is directly equivalent to your prowess as a wrestler - if you want to improve, you have to beat people in live bouts.

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>>50820049
Let's take a look as long as we're here.

>>50816647
Of course it does. Why do you think the Mongols never invaded Japan? They were afraid of superior Nippon wood folded an octillion times, and ancient Zen archery techniques that white scientists fail to explain to this day! I have personally witnessed a samurai destroy modern airplanes in one shot by holding his bow like that.

>>50823171
Enshrined into law so we had a highly-trained force of archers available, capable of putting an arrow through a layer of steel plate, a tank driver, another layer of steel plate, and well into the loader.
They've found M3 Stuarts with tank crew killed in such a way, with the arrow still there.

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>>50820218
Look up hobelars, retard.

English cavalry ravaged the French countryside throughout the 100-years war, using independent detachments of hobelars to raid villages, burn bridges, and generally be assholes behind enemy lines.

>Uh I w-was only trolling!

>>50823224
Sounds like a hakkapelitta-style meme unit that's importance has been greatly exaggerated in a pathetic attempt to bolster one's national identity desu senpai.

>>50823224
>Hobelars were a type of light cavalry, or mounted infantry, used in Western Europe during the Middle Ages for skirmishing.
>mounted infantry

>>50823327
>Type of light cavalry

>Type
>of
>light
>cavalry

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>>50821219
>England
>All flat plains
> doesnt google penines

>>50823371
>or
>mounted
>infantry

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>>50822272
>And when did England defeat Spain?
>The armada doesn't count

>>50823371
Light cavalry that fought half the time on foot isn't exactly a stirring endorsement of England's grand cavalry tradition regardless.

>>50823428
Next you're telling us that you also don't find Switzerland's blue water navy impressive.

>>50823423
Since when weather is part of Britain's army?

>>50816913
For fucks sake this modern new age bullshit literally created the modern "too deadly for you!" bullshido that we have.

No. Martial art has nothing to do with "self expression" or "beauty" it's art as in "craft" or "skill".

Arts of Mars.

Skills of warfare.

Fuck you and everybody who looks at martial art as a sentence and goes "hurrr art means it's beautiful and it means they are meant to grow you as a person" and other such bullcrap. You go study how to disable a violent opponent. That is martial art. Everything else there is just fucking extra that you might get.

If your martial art consists 50% of "values, impress spectators and easy to teach en masse" then you are training bullshido.

>>50823374
Those are hills. There are no mountains in england.
Otherwise, England is neither plains nor flat. It's rolling temperate grassland.

>>50823428
Household cavalry, royal horse artillery.
the former is still around, and not just as a ceremonial guard.

>>50823454
Since it was part of the Russian and Finnish militaries, obviously.

>>50823454
there were multiple armadas, only three of them were destoryed by storms, one was destroyed by fireships, one was prevented from launching because the spanish cork factory got destroyed, one (technically) succeeded (it caused minor damage to a small coastal town)

>>50823484
>cork factory

So this was the scum of the earth that Duke of Wellington meant when he talked about British army.

>>50823475
Devil's advocate here: if you don't teach values alongside martial arts and your student goes off and abuses what you've taught him, you're kind of responsible for that.

>>50823224
Don't forget that the Golden Cavalry of St. George were the most effective fighting force on the continent until the 101st Airborne arrived.

>>50823479
>Household cavalry
19th century divisions raised from bodyguards and the French-inspired Horse Grenadiers.
>royal horse artillery.
Why would you even think this is cavalry, they're no more cavalry than Artillery gun crews are infantry.

>>50823520
Just like automakers are responsible for road rage!

>>50823520
Perhaps, perhaps not. But proper values aren't part of the martial art. They're part of the greater lifestyle or philosophy of the master. While many martial arts masters do choose to teach them, you can be an equally effective fighter without ever learning them.

>>50823652
No, it's like how driving teachers that don't teach you to yield right of way are responsible for you running people over. There's a difference between manufacturing and training.
But nice false equivalence.

>>50823423
Literally told you why. England did worst on that war than Spain. It's like Agincourt, a meme battle overblown by english propaganda to make the world forget about their own defeats.

>>50821603
>the English Civil War

Did they ever have one of those? Usually they ended up being invaded and having their ruling house replaced by yet another set of foreigners every time they went to war.

>>50823423
Well I mean England tried too, literally right after
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Armada

>>50823479
>Those are hills. There are no mountains in england.
Plenty of them in Wales, but yeah, England is as flat as your waifu.

>>50823716
>No, it's like how driving teachers that don't teach you to yield right of way are responsible for you running people over. There's a difference between manufacturing and training.
>But nice false equivalence.
Nope, you're selling a line of utter bullshit. Martial arts are simply a tool, just like anything else sold to you. Morality lessons do not come included.

>>50823736
there were two, one replaced the royal line with a different one, the other got rid of the monarch and made us a republic (it didn't last)

>>50823716
You're correct, but I'm just saying that there is a bit of moral obligation to teach values alongside martial arts. Plus, isn't there an element of self-interest to it too? If you were going to give someone power (or in this case, teach someone something that's equivalent to power), wouldn't you prefer them to share your values?

>>50823768
>missing his point this hard

>>50823140
>18 carriers out of nowhere
Did America cheat code in WW2?

>>50823783
>>missing his point this hard
If you say so.

>>50823768
Again, no. There's a difference between the guy who sold you a sword and the guy who taught you to use it. The first one gave you a piece of metal. The second one taught you to harm people.
Cars are a shitty example because they're so fucking easy to use and it's assumed anybody in society is more-or-less capable of using them. Martial arts are on the opposite end of the spectrum, where everyone has the equipment but most people can't use it for shit.
Please tell me you can see the relevant difference.

>>50823804
Yeah, dumbass, I do say so. His point is that martial arts don't inherently include any values. The conversation between the two of us was about the moral obligation to teach values alongside martial arts.

>>50823804
He is not the only one that says so, you idiot.
All martial arts, no matter where they are from, come with some manner of mental discipline to enable the person to be less of a fucktard and actually absorb what they are learning and apply it judiciously.
It's the same reason why military boot camp exists, to prepare people and strengthen them mentally for what they must learn latter.

>>50823822
Kind of. I did also concede that there might be some validity to the claim they should be, and an auto manufacturer is a shitty comparison.

>>50822272
>The expedition was floated as a joint stock company, with capital of about £80,000 — one quarter to come from the Queen, and one eighth from the Dutch, the balance to be made up by various noblemen, merchants and guilds
This is literally the most interesting part of the article.

I'm incorporating this into my games.

>>50823854
I'd say that's an overgeneralization. My fencing teacher definitely didn't preach much about morality. My jiujutsu teacher really only talked about self-defense applications, but wasn't preachy either.
It's definitely a good way to do things, but in practice lots of teachers only teach the skills.

>>50823813
>Again, no. There's a difference between the guy who sold you a sword and the guy who taught you to use it.
No, there isn't. Assigning arbitrary moral requirements to a product someone sells you just because one puts it in your hand and the other puts it in your head is asinine.
>>50823822
Stifle your butthurt, imbecile. You two are just engaging in pointless philosophical masturbation anyway and you know it.

>>50820174
>France
>mountainous

>>50823862
>an auto manufacturer is a shitty comparison
And it's still missing the point. You are goalpost moving by attacking the example, rather than what the example was trying to prove.
If there was a point to carry, you wouldn't need to say "your example isn't the best it could be", you would say "your example is wrong because *insert argument*".
>>50823883
>My fencing teacher definitely didn't preach much about morality.
Because fencing, especially in these days, isn't something with direct street application.
>My jiujutsu teacher really only talked about self-defense applications, but wasn't preachy either.
Jiujitsu does have street applications, and so you got at least the lip service about not being an idiot about it. Unfortunately, it says more about the quality of your instructor than the lessons and gravity that come with what you were being taught.

>>50823919
>pointless philosophical masturbation
Nigger, this is Ethics For Dummies 101.

>>50823919
>No, there isn't
You are blaming the tool, instead of the man who brought the intent behind it.
You... don't see where this leads? The silliness of it, or how this argument has been and remains relevant? Or >>50823943, when you are arguing philosophy yourself, despite insulting others for doing so?
It's like I'm on facebook all of a sudden.

>>50823970
>You are blaming the tool, instead of the man who brought the intent behind it.
If someone misuses their knowledge I blame them, not the person who sold them that knowledge for not also teaching them right from wrong.

>>50823767
>England is as flat
Rolling hills, anon. This ain't holland. We have quite the change in elevation, especially Up North.

>>50823736
THE civil war happened when King Charles I insisted he had a 'divine right to rule', disbanded prliament when they called him out, and proceeded to start raising taxes. Parliament raised an army in response, and a long and bloody conflict ensued.
The major casualty was most of the castles in England; any time one side took refuge in one, the other side had to blow it up with gunpowder. Any time one side started losing, they holed up in castles.
King Charles I was eventually found (hiding in a tree about 20 miles from where I live; the tree's still there) and beheaded.
Then we had the rule of Oliver Cromwell, who pulled most of the same shit, enforced puritanism, and cancelled christmas. Which, naturally, caused peasants to starve/freeze to death in a cold snap.
He was also executed, and we went and found Charles II, King Charles I's cousin, who had fled to the continent. Holland, I think. Anyway, that lead to a big compromise, limiting power of both crown and parliament. The crown is in charge of the army, but parliament is in charge of PAYING the army, and have to approve the existence of it periodically, so we don't have a standing army.
The remaining die-hard puritans were packed off to the New World on leaky ships with inadequate supplies and no idea of how to farm properly. And thus, thanksgiving was born when the natives bailed them out.

>>50823520
Guy you responded to:
What, do you need to be told to not to rape? There's extremely simple way of teaching values for cunts like you:

Don't fucking hurt people without a cause. There, done, 50% of your "martial art" taught right there.

>>50823931
>Attacking the argument instead of the end goal of the argument is goalpost-shifting
No, dipshit, it's logic 101. If the argument you used is bad, your opponent doesn't have to conceded your conclusion. Find a better fucking example.

>Fencing
You're probably right.
>Jiujutsu
Yes, that's what I fucking said. The ethics are NOT rolled up into the art. That's the exact point I was making there.

>>50823986
You're not responding to me here, but it just shows you missed my original point. I wasn't arguing that your martial arts teacher is responsible for your behavior. I was literally only arguing an auto manufacturer is a shitty comparison.
I'm literally on your side, dumbass.

>>50816647
>ITT
Basement dwellers who have never held a blade, bow or gun or even been in a real fight tell us about combat form.

>>50824012
You'd actually be surprised at the number of basement dwellers that go into weapon training nowadays. Fencing is 90% PC gamers. Archery is 90% Ren Faire nerds.

>>50823986
That's because you don't understand the most basic of ethics. If you give someone power, you have a responsibility to make sure they won't abuse it, within reason.

>>50824010
>I was literally only arguing an auto manufacturer is a shitty comparison.
It isn't. I suspect the only reason you think so is because you've been bamboozled with the notion that selling instruction is somehow different from selling anything else. It is not.

>>50824028
>citation: My ass

>>50823986
Anon, most of the places you can purchase a tool do not tell you how to use it.
Most gun shops I know of do not have an attached range with a licensed instructor who can teach you basic safety and use. Your local Home Depot will not teach you how to spackle, set up your fiberglass or the applications of quik-set concrete versus mix set.
>>50824010
>The ethics are NOT rolled up into the art
The ethics are rolled into proper instruction. Your instructor was shitty, anon, and only you seem to be ignoring that. >>50824032 has it, and the traditions of martial arts, all of them, have a set of ethics attached that your particular instructor decided to ignore.

>>50824032
>If you give someone power, you have a responsibility to make sure they won't abuse it, within reason.
>instantly qualified with 'within reason'
Gracious. I sure hope we can arrive at an objective point where 'within reason' is.

>>50823795
Japs can't into ships.

>>50824005
I'm not saying that it's a complex or difficult lesson, and I'm not saying that it's an inherent part of martial arts. All I'm saying is that if some gets hurt because you didn't teach that lesson, that's blood on your hands.

>>50824058
You're using the word "proper" in a very subjective way here.
For what it's worth, I agree with you - martial arts teachers SHOULD teach ethics. All I'm saying is they don't stop being martial arts teachers just because they don't. If you learn how to fight, then they taught you a martial art. It doesn't even need a fancy name.

>>50824040
You're right. I am a bamboozled moron and you have all the answers, and that's why everyone here thinks you're an idiot.

>>50824063
>Objectivity
>When anon is literally arguing subjective values against objective fact

>>50817063
>>50817239
No wonder Japanese have so much grinding in their rpgs.

>>50824058
>Anon, most of the places you can purchase a tool do not tell you how to use it.
And? A gun store sells you a gun, a gun instructor teaches you how to use that gun to best effect, not how to behave in society. What the fuck are these moral lessons anyway? Don't kill people, do unto others? Just rehashing fundamental shit everyone already knows but either choose to follow or not follow by themselves?

>>50823171
>Why do you think the Mongols never invaded Japan?

They invaded it two times. It didn't end well, but they did it.

>>50824087
>people other than the one who decided to commit this crime share guilt in this tragedy!
Love this one.

>>50824133
One time they were defeated by the weather. But, wait, that apparently doesn't count, according to >50823454

>>50823171
They were afraid of getting fucked up by Japan's shitty weather. Literally got tsunamied twice.

>>50824133
Why do you think they failed? They were bested by superior Nippon wind folded a quintillion times, and ancient sky spirits that white scientists fail to explain to this day! I have personally witnessed a Kamikaze destroy modern battleships instantly by suicide bombing.

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>>50824093
>You're right. I am a bamboozled moron and you have all the answers, and that's why everyone here thinks you're an idiot.
Is agitating a couple of karate nerds on the boardgame section of 4chan supposed to be some sort of dire indictment of my worldview?

>>50824093
>they don't stop being martial arts teachers just because they don't
No, they just are shit at their jobs, anon. My father taught me how to box, and was persistent on making sure I knew when, and when not, to raise my fists to someone, and to appreciate what knowledge I had.
>>50824118
>a gun instructor teaches you how to use that gun to best effect, not how to behave in society
A gun instructor absolutely teaches you proper gun safety, which implicitly includes training on how to not hurt yourself or others via negligence, poor form, or foolishness. It's why gun instructors will tell you to not be carrying during an argument or any situation where you know your emotions will run high.
>>50824140
Welcome to basic ethics, anon, have you been reading the thread? Would you like to see the Wikipedia page explaining this, and why it applies?

>>50824087
No it's not. I'm not all knowing, nor responsible for them. They are adults or close enough to know what is right or wrong. If they aren't, then they will be kicked out of the school. Teaching values belong to parents.

>>50817903
>The sport of kyudo is entirely about form, even hitting the target is secondary.

That seems really dumb

I'm not asking them to be able to actually kill someone in battle but accuracy should still be a primary concern in a sport based around a bow.

>>50824001
>And thus, thanksgiving was born when the natives bailed them out.

Eh, pretty much any colony in both Americas that didn't have enough natives around to feed'em died.

>>50824179
But that's the thing. Kyudo isn't a sport. It's a meditation practice.

>>50824168
>My father taught me how to box, and was persistent on making sure I knew when, and when not, to raise my fists to someone, and to appreciate what knowledge I had.
>My father
>father
Your father taught you values!? Holly golly gee wow FUCK!

>>50823652
Just like cooks are responsible for foodfights.

>>50824163
All right, as long as we were arguing about philosophy, I was fine.
But you don't know anything about me. This is le 4chins and I know everyone here is assumed to be an ignorant basement-dwelling hentai-masturbator, but you might be surprised to find out that basement-dwelling hentai-masturbators occasionally do leave the house and learn things.
I don't owe you my credentials and you won't believe me anyway. But if your last line of defense is "lol I assume things about you" then there's nothing left to discuss.

>>50824168
Has it occurred to you that not teaching you morals wouldn't have made him a shitty fighting teacher, but rather a shitty father?
For the record, I do agree with you that a fighting teacher SHOULD make sure their students aren't douchelords. It's just that it's not an inherent part of the fighting style - more like ethical restrictions on using the fighting style in the first place.

>>50824203
>I don't owe you my credentials and you won't believe me anyway. But if your last line of defense is "lol I assume things about you" then there's nothing left to discuss.
Last line of defense to what? The last 'argument' you had was basic bitch ad populum, it's actually hilarious that you've gone into a semi-meltdown when I countered that I could give a fuck what some 4chan person thinks.

>>50824188
>Your father
I was well near adulthood when it happened, and maybe you didn't have a father, but there are times where the bond isn't father/son, but teacher/student.
>>50824203
And I disagree, citing the military example. Does meditation make you a better fighter? No, but what it does do is mold your headcase into being responsible with the power you have, to use it when it is appropriate, because no martial method came up independent of human society, and so knelt to society's demands/standards. Japanese martial arts retain this, shit, Muay Thai, the oldest of the most direct combat martial arts, retain it, believing it critical to mastery.
> if your last line of defense is "lol I assume things about you"
Then talk about some of your experiences, anon. People who actually lurk here already know the fuckers on this board run a massive gamut of people, from dedicated /pol/tards to ivy leaguers in their last years to euro larp magos like HLM. Despite what you may think, some of us are prepared to accept that people on 4chan have a world away from the internet.

>>50824156
That's literally me, and I never said that Spain didn't invade England in the message you ridiculously failed to quote.

Not to mention the great mistake that is comparing a war of conquest with a war with completely different objectives. For starters the Japanese didn't start the war against the mongols.

>>50824162
Kek

>>50824349
I made a mean joke and made 4chan kek. Am I a bad person now?

>>50816647

Because they're short. Need to aim up to hit normal height humans.

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>>50823925
It is. At least all the good parts are.
Also kinda full of forests and swamps, that aren't a horseman's dreamland.

>>50824373
If you're here, you were already a bad person. Probably.

>>50824409
Isn't the Camargue, a literal giant swamp, one of the home of a pretty famous horse breed? I know jack shit about riding, but I visited the places and it was horses here horses there. Since then this "swamps are bad for riding" thing seemed like a meme to me.

I mean, I'm sure SOME horses will peform badly in swamps, but not all.

>>50824156
You're right, it doesn't count. Is not proof of Japanese superiority or anything, is just bad/good luck.

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>>50824474
Terrain bad for cavalry isn't necessarily bad for horses.

>>50824525
I feel what you're saying makes sense, but not why. Care to develop what would make a terrain good for horses but bad for riders?

>>50824536
Not him, but horses just like to run around, eat, play and survive like any other animal. They don't really need a stable footing that allows them to build up enough speed to crash into a wall of fleshy humans. It makes sense when you think of horses as animals (and herbivores at that) rather than war machines.

>>50818880
Boomers were trained to imagine shit hadn't changed and wasn't still changing. It's a bit different.

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>>50824566
>It makes sense when you think of horses as animals (and herbivores at that) rather than war machines.

You're trying to tell me they're living beings with feelings and not made to serve mankind?

>>50822256
Krav Maga has already begun to become stylized. You need to be careful not to find bullshit artists teaching something less effective.

>>50822158
Defendu is a fucking meme, mark my word. Fairbain just made a watered down and stylized version of Sykes' much more effective combatives.

>>50824602
Boomers truly are the worst generations
>raised in fairly luxurious conditions
>spent their youth by doing drugs and spreading stds via free love
>entered the workforce when even getting employed as a mcdonald's burger flipper didn't require you to have a ph.d, +20 years of work experience and still be under 25 year old
>now they act like entitled twats even though they didn't really do anything and bitch about everything

>>50824696
To be fair, temporary population booms wreck economies pretty much by default when the boomers age. It's not like this is the first time it's ever happened.

>>50824762
No, but it's the first time that the aging population is actively forcing an economic and social structure that actively prevents us from fixing the problem. And also they're living hella long compared to past examples.

>>50824762
Fucking boomers are suggesting a hike in taxes to pay for their old-age care, in britain.
I'm tempted to suggest a one-time solution of just euthanising the lot for the good of society.
They've also completely wrecked Japan's economy.

>>50822206
>Krav Maga doesn't give a fuck about what you think. Its entire purpose is to fuck the other guy up as quickly as possible, with no thought spared for aesthetics.

Yes, making "poke the other guy in the eye" the martial art, worse than useless any time you're not trying to kill anyone.

>>50824873
There's some part of me that reels whenever I hear something about a generation not dying fast enough.

Like, I'm not knocking that it's a problem, but holy shit there must be some other solution.

>>50824919
>worse than useless any time you're not trying to kill anyone.
Well, so are most martial arts. If you don't want to kill someone, don't smack them in the head.

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>>50823795
America is fairly big man

>>50824968
I get what you're saying - it's not like I'm saying people living longer is a bad thing. But it is an economic stress, and we can't ignore that.
We can do things like raise the retirement age, find better/more efficient way to subsidize retirees, etc. But we can't just keep going with a system that assumes life expectancy is 15 less than it really is.

>>50825091
That much I'll happily agree with.

>>50825069
A lot of martial arts include wrestling techniques.

I'm not a big fan of martial arts myself, though. Knowing one puts you at a disadvantage in battery cases, and I've never known karate kids to be particularly good at fighting. Every one that's picked a fight with me so far has been so far up their own ass about their superior skill that they were completely flabbergasted at the fact I wasn't running straight at them, waving my arms around like a retarded windmill. So far, I haven't met one with any "moves" more advanced that punching and kicking, same as anyone.

And the difference between absolute zero and my own "skill" is shit you could easily teach any retard in a half-hour.

>>50825091
>We can do things like raise the retirement age
And screw younger people out of jobs because they haven't been freed up.

>>50825140
Karate doesn't, and by extension taekwando because it's the chinese copy of karate. That's the major striking arts in terms of popularity.
Do you have 'martial arts' confused with 'muay thai'?

>>50822135

When is season two coming BTW?

>>50825140
What do you do, that you apparently get into fights with karate kids a lot? Are you a cop?

>>50824873
>The first time an aging population is actively forcing a system that doesn't work.

All kinds of populations force short sighted shit that doesn't work. If societal problems could be fixed by the sorts of simple and straightforward solutions that cultures create and disseminate well, said problems would be fixed earlier and more frequently. The bigger issue is usually that those in a position to understand and solve problems are instead either tempted to exacerbate them by opportunities for personal gain or just bad at solving the problems they're positioned to fix (see again: shit's hard).

>Not dying fast enough.

Too early to say, but they've gained less ground than their parents and grandparents IIRC. Pretty sure the bigger issue was the starting size rather than the rate of attrition.

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>>50825264
2-3 weeks.
Never if you meant RoTK

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>>50821293
>if I said something stupid, you misheard

>>50822299
Almost right, but when it first started they were actually using Mauser C96 pistols.

>>50825077
>Florida is pointing at Iraq
Orlando's really fucking pissed.

>>50825671
Yes.

Same goes for understanding: if you think some big ideology has one massive, blatantly obvious flaw, you probably don't understand that ideology.

>>50825840
"Stupidity doesn't exist" is a pretty flawed lens through which to interpret the world. I mean, I lean towards apologia and synthesis myself, but sometimes an idea just isn't as great as its holders think it is. The popularity of an idea is likewise a flimsy insurance against its error.

>>50825173

>We can do things like raise the retirement age
>And screw younger people out of jobs because
>they haven't been freed up.

Not to mention raising the retirement age could potentially be much worse for medical stuff (extra stress, increased injuries, exposure to pathogens).

>>50823428
Yeah this is like pointing to the dragoons, forgetting the Big Deal of the UK was that they all dismounted and fought on foot.
>>50824001
That's a huge oversimplification.

Also, Cromwell wasn't executed 'till after he, you know, died. And he wasn't unusually unpopular, either: for a long time it seemed a similar protector would follow him, but then shit happened.
>>50825925
>everyone but me is a complete retard
I'm only talking about absurdly stupid stuff, like "England never used cavalry" (or "three plus three is four hundred million").

>>50825949
>That's a huge oversimplification.
Yes, but this is 4chan and I took (and failed) computers and physics instead of history.
If they want an essay, they can go look it up on wikipedia.

>>50825949
Don't underestimate stupidity. Or any other quality, really. Whatever heights of brilliance or depths of idiocy you encounter, can be achieved.

>>50826045
Don't overestimate stupidity -- or any other quality. People very very rarely reach absurd depths.

>>50824001
>cancelled christmas. Which, naturally, caused peasants to starve/freeze to death in a cold snap.
So this is the power of War on Christmas.

>>50826060
I guess the moral of the story is to use your judgment to actually examine what is being said, to avoid following absolute rules like "everyone's mistakes are just my imagination".

>>50826107
Yeah but when you think someone literally means England never had cavalry, your judgement is obviously irreparable.

>>50824001
>cancelled Christmas
also good food, gambling, theater, makeup, colorful clothing, dancing, music, sport, and otherwise anything remotely enjoyable

the puritans were not fun people

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>>50826153
Incidentally, that happened for only a very short period of time, and partially in order to appease Cromwell's supporters. Kinda like the prohibition, if it lasted a couple of years.

Cromwell generally wasn't really sure what he was doing.

>>50826153
Yeah. I feel kinda sorry for the Americans having gotten them.

>>50826217
given that they founded America I don't know how you can say that Americans 'got them', unless you're talking about the Natives of course

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>>50821635

>>50826148
>if someone's wrong it's the observer's mistake
>unless I'm the observer

>>50826288
>if something's wrong it's never, ever, ever my mistake, only theirs.

>>50826300
The difference is, I don't think anyone said your version.

>>50826309
>difference

>>50826320
Yes, different things are different. Is this really your only response?

>>50826335
Not an argument.

>>50826347
No, it was an affirmation and a question.

>>50826153
One should keep in mind that for generations America was the dumping ground for Europe's undesirables, failures, petty criminals, and other riffraff that didn't have what it took to make it in Europe. Hell, some nations even bought trash from Africans and sent them over to the New World.

>>50826360
Exactly.

I think we're done here.

>>50826383
And then we did the same thing with Australia.

>>50826400
Sure. If you won't engage in good faith, most any discourse will go nowhere fast.

>>50826430
Not that anyone should expect good faith.

>>50818393
How does an uneven design even work? If you don't nock the arrow at the exact center of the bowstring, won't it move up or down as you draw it?

>>50826446
Why not?

>>50826470
Whenever the conversation becomes difficult, it's so much easier to divert to semantics or meaningless stuff like >>50826335.

>>50826490
I think you meant >>50826320.