So how do you give martials cool abilities without it breaking

Have you tried not playing D&D?

>>50721133
Cool is subjective.

I exclusively play martials and have a blast.

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>>50721133
>"verisimilitude"
????
Verisimilitude is a spook, based on purely subjective standards that differ from person to person. What is verisimilar for one person isn't for another.
I would just give martials cool abilities and tell the naysayers to deal with it.

>>50721173

OK lemme make that a bit MORE objective.

Abilities outside of full attacking/tripping.

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>>50721188

By having abilities that in keeping with the setting and getting rid of the notion that some magical or supernatural abilties are the sole purview of robe wearing faggot nerds who can undo reality by jazz handing and dancing around like idiots

You forget the stupid design decisions made by most editions of D&D. It's really not fucking hard, and the mind boggling thing is that the mindset that martial characters should be so ludicrously limited is as wide spread as it is.

>>50721188
Tripping shouldn't be a separate ability.
The inherent problem of martials as defined per DnD is lack of variety and utility. They need separate feats just to do stuff that anyone else can do.

An easy fix is just consolidating ALL of the martial abilities into one class, while imposing the feat tax and dividing the features of "supernatural" classes.

Mages should be very limited in their universe-breaking options, while martials should have a lot of not-universe-breaking options. Not vice versa.

>>50721133
Gesundheit.

>>50721241

I think it goes even further than that.

All those basic martial combat tricks that would otherwise be gated behind classes or feats should be baked into the base combat system in a way that anyone with decent martial competence can make use of them. Design the core combat system so that even in a fight between a few identically statted classless goons they all have options and decisions to make that can meaningfully and usefully affect the combat beyond 'deal damage'.

Build your martial classes on top of that, giving them extra stuff, bonuses, more utility and such.

Letting go of the stupid martial/magic double standard fixes the top end, but raising the lower end of martials is important too.

>>50721268
That's their most basic feature.

>>50721303
Adjusting the power curve is also necessary in my opinion.
While transition of martial from level 1 to level 20 is that of a mook to a Hercules, the transition of a caster from level 1 to level 20 is from a powerful mage to literal god.

Level 10 caster is rougly equivalent to level 25 martial in terms of power level. So adjust the power curve accordingly.
Either make casters gain experience at drastically lesser rate, or make martials gain power at better rate.

>>50721133
Lots of legends and folklore have martials performing inhuman feats despite being non-supernatural human beings. It's about as realistic as magic existing, so it fits. Just take an example like that guy who can cut through flying airsoft pellets with a katana and exaggerate it.

>>50721381

That's another part of the double standard which is highly aggravating. You get people bitching about how some scummy soldier shouldn't be able to do x, y and z, but if that's what you're comparing it to then a baseline caster should be a hedge wizard who knows a handful of 0th level spells. I'd much rather adjust up than adjust down, where the baseline characters are already interesting, competent heroes in their own right while still allowing plenty of room to grow from there.

>>50721133
>without it breaking "versimilitude"?

Take it outside and kick it to the curb. Some say the violation of physical limits is the strict purview of magic. Fuck that noise.

Conan never let it stop him. Odysseus was just a mortal man, keen in mind and martial talent. Gengis Khan clawed his way from obscurity to being on of the most infamous warlords ever.

Of course there are stories where heroes were more than human. Where you couldn't separate their deeds into purely magical or martial. That begs the question, does that divide really matter?

>>50721215
>Bard with Perform (Jazz Hands)
>Wears their bathrobe everywhere
>Nobody can tell the difference between them and a wizard
>Even wizards are fooled
>"I can't tell what spell those hand movements belong too, he must be extremely powerful indeed!"

>>50721133
Step 1: Make anti-mages great for once
Step 2: Distribute magic across classes instead of letting mages monopolize it.
Step 3: Incorporate fighter feats (especially the low level ones) into the fighting system as basic mechanics and replace them with cool shit.

Boom, done.

Boom, done

>>50721161
fpbp
/thread

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>>50721133
Having a completely nonmagical limited-to-real-world-physics class in settings where magic is commonplace and physics are a soft guideline at best breaks verisimilitude far more than just giving martials cool abilities.

Fighters should be able to train past normal human limits and wrestle dragons by being Just That Good, or have specialized access to buff spells for the same result.

>>50721133
Don't play with autists who "versimilitude" gets broken so easily.

>>50721133
If you have magic enough that a fucker with a sword and his wits can't reasonably be able to beat, then only letting the fighter do mundane ass shit is verisimilitude breaking.

Watch a bunch of anime and copy what their martials do into what your setting's martials can do.

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>>50722136
This man is enlightened everyone listen to him

>>50722136
are there any systems that do this and still have fun dangerous adventures like DnD?

>>50721303
>All those basic martial combat tricks that would otherwise be gated behind classes or feats should be baked into the base combat system in a way that anyone with decent martial competence can make use of them.
Mutants and Masterminds allowed anybody to take tradeoffs between accuracy, damage and defences (i.e Power Attack and so on) up to +/- 2 as baseline. Taking a Advantage (i.e. feat) allows you to go up to +/- 5.

so that's already tried and works really nice.

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>>50722403
>tfw this scene never happens in the anime itself

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>>50721133
>without it breaking "versimilitude"
Who gives a shit? Don't we have dragons and shit in fantasy?

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>Short term fix: Take your (FIGHTER)/(ROGUE)/(BARBARIAN) Classes. Simultaneously level up in all three. Now you are strong, fast, crafty, and know your way around weapons and armor. An actual commando if you will.

>Long Term Fix: Restructure system.
Firstly, the idea of Mundane/muggle being up there with super-beings, throw that right out the window. There is nothing mundane about that person anymore so, no. They are adults now, time for a power source. If you have power sources, you have rules. If you have rules, you have mechanics, but if you have some player accessible rule 0 garbage, all you have is a broken mess.

Call it what you will. KI, Prana, Ether, Ruach, Od, Mitochondrial energy. The higher mysteries of the body are unlocked by the martialist. They are keenly in tune with themselves, and can use various techniques to squeeze the best performance possible from their bodies.

>Honestly a maneuver system like TOB is ideal, but instead of it's classes, It could have been one class, and had some of the things rolled into the styles.
>Feats work for passive abilities, but they should be rolling for the ideal adept. The way wizard is with spells, the martial adept should be with "non-magic" abilities. A total combat genius.

>Magical/psionic/ect alternate gish in a can.
It should be just as easy, taking an archetype and reducing maneuver progression a little,to take on magic use.
That is your paladin, ranger, magus/duskblade/hexblade, psychic warrior.
None of those are a different class. They are all the same class using different sources of power and applying them towards a cosmetic difference.

>Essentially there should only really be two classes, mage and warrior, and within the two are schools, where you can be orthodox/traditionalist, or unorthodox/generalist. From school specialization the different "types" make themselves evident.

>>50721133
>verisimilitude
That's subjective, and basically just comes down to keeping all playable classes somewhere in the same ballpark as each other at any given level / XP total / etc.

If you mean you want to keep non-mages realistic, then your martials are limited by what similar people can do in the real world, so you need to give them actual options in combat other than "attack" (give them feints, haymakers, defensive options, etc), and you should probably keep magic classes to around the same power level (because players tend not to like being overshadowed).

Really, the main thing is to give them actual things they're good at (and let them be good at many of them at the same time) so playing one is at least approaching the level of complexity of playing a caster.

>>50721133
By taking another system? Why are you all obsessed with repairing DnD instead of just moving on?

>>50721133
Have you ever considered adding stances? martial forms that warriors and the like can learn as they travel?

>>50723277
The Long Term Fix is good.

I mean, magic and the supernatural are intimately tied. Being able to do physics-breaking feats is a form of magic, it's just that martials will usually learn it from training with weapons and such.

>>50721133
You make that casters can only perform parlor tricks

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>>50722440
Dungeon Crawl Classics

Which was my answer to this thread, make martials more like Dungeon Crawl Classics. Warriors have an action die that allows them to do any action movie stunt you can think of--want to break down a door, swing from a chandelier, disarm, trip, blind, call a shot? You can attempt /anything/ you convince your GM to try, once a turn, as a bonus action to your attack. No feats, no fuss, and your action die grows to be so good you're all but guaranteed to at least marginally succeed at most your stunts.

It also makes magic incredibly dangerous, so that brings wizards down a bit to help make things more even. I love the shit out of this system.

>>50723843

>Being able to do physics-breaking feats is a form of magic

Not necessarily

>>50723872
Is this a "psionics totally isn't magic, despite being pretty much identical" post?

>>50723843
Extraordinary features break laws of physics and aren't magic or supernatural

>>50723913

It's just a comment that not everything which breaks the laws of reality as we know it needs to be magic. In some settings, sure, but in others it explicitly isn't, and there are precise definitions of various sources and effects of supernatural power. In Wuxia, the use of Chi to perform extraordinary martial manoeuvres is described to be as natural as breathing.

>>50723919
Something can break the laws of nature, without doing so being outside of nature?

The natural laws contain things which they do not contain?

>>50723929
Yeah, and technically magic and religion can be separated.

Okay, if the term magic is going to be annoying to people... let's call it bob.

You have bob, these are the things that break the laws of nature.
You have arcane bob, which is used by wizards and such.
You have divine bob, which is used by clerics, etc.
You have psionic bob, which is used by psionists.
And you have martial bob, which is used by fighters.

There may be other forms of bob out there, but let's stick to this.

>>50723913
Evasion is a physics breaking non-magical ability.

>>50723982

But that's just meaningless and silly.

>>50721133
If your game goes for versimilitude, being a kinda badass fighter should already be cool.
If your goes does not go for versimilitude, neither should a fighter be required to.

>>50723960
Even right now in reality we don't know the extent of laws of nature. So yeah, metaphysically speaking you can break the laws of physics without breaking the laws of physics

>>50721133
Dragons can fly and breathe fire, Giants walk around in full defiance of the Square-Cube Law. Fix your autism or get out of my game.

>>50723960
Different settings, different laws of nature, different human limits.
Assuming realistic physical laws in high magic fantasy worlds never made sense to me.

>>50724147

It doesn't make sense. Unfortunately some people try to shove 'realism' everywhere, including places it absolutely does not belong.

>>50724003
In which case magic need not be supernatural. The entire idea of supernatural is effectively meaningless here.

>>50723996
What would your preferred name for these breaks from the natural world and the force behind it?
Mantra? Medicine? Heka? Qi? Pneuma?

>>50724263

Why does it need a name or some sort of discrete categorisation?

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I play a character in GURPS with weapon master, a skill of 22 in a weapon or two, extra attack, dual attack technique and supplementary techniques for flavor, possibly including a few combos.

Then I go all-out attack double with rapid strike, followed by a dual attack and my extra attack for a minimum of five attacks in one turn (second).

>>50723986
So it's supernatural without breaking physics.

Ignoring this contradiction, where does the rogue get this power from? (Presumably monks get it from Qi, the force that permeates the universe and can be manipulated by a practitioner's will.)

>>50724274
Because I want a punchier term than "that power that allows you to circumvent the laws of nature" and apparently magic isn't the name for that?

>>50724309
>that power that allows you to circumvent the laws of nature
Supernatural.

>>50724309

Again, why do you need a specific way to categorise it? If it's a high fantasy setting it's just part of what happens, so roll with it.

>>50724309
Also,
>implying laws of nature are universal between settings
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>50721133
By not being a worthless faggot, mostly.

Tripping/Pushing/Holding/lifting is a Minor action.

Size limits removed and replaced with simple DC checks.

There, I fixed everything.

>>50724350

You really fucking didn't.

>>50724356
Name the problems then?

>>50724314
But then what about those non-supernatural abilities that break the laws of nature?

>>50724317
Then what's the problem with it being called magic?

If you can jump really high, does it matter if to do it you chant an arcane ritual, pray to your god, meditate on the power of mind over matter, channel the breath of the universe through your body, or to marshal your inner reserves of strength?

I maintain magic is as good a name as any for all these things together.

>>50724370

There's no problem with it being called magic in some settings.

The point is that it doesn't always need to be. Depending on a settings metaphysics and such, it could have many names or not need a name.

>>50724362

Read the fucking thread

>>50724370
"Supernatural" is by definition "above the nature".

If you do something that isn't supernatural, it doesn't break the laws of nature by definition.

>>50724388
>Open up the Ability to physically Pin, Throw, Wrestle and hold down enemies even the size of Dragons
>All while not sacrificing their damage or ability to do other things.

I fail to see how anything else in this thread has resolved the issue of Martials not being able to be the Heroic legends of Myth.

Retards like >>50724370 Just fail to understand the Language behind it.

Supernatural can mean magic or not, it just means "More than the Natural."

So tell me, What stops Martials from being strong with cool abilites if you remove their inate weakness of not being able to do anything physically besides full damage?

>>50724309
But the character being able to do it means they explicitly aren't circumventing the laws of nature. They are acting within nature, but a nature where things like that can happen.

Verisimilitude.

>>50724370
>>50724407
Oh, and before you sperg out: the same thing can be within or without of the realm of the laws of nature, depending on the setting's metaphysics.

Just because it can't be done in real world doesn't mean it can't be done in that setting.

>>50724407
Yeah but apparently things like evasion break the laws of physics without being supernatural.

>>50724425
Oh, the "It HAS to be mundane because I just can't get it up otherwise, despite how little sense it makes calling it mundane!" crowd's arrived.

>>50724440

Nope. Nice bullshit strawman though.

>>50722136
Post of the day, hell, probably even post of the week material right here.

>>50724437
Only because the term Supernatural has been co-opted by Morons who think Supernatural means magic.

>>50724443
Only that's exactly what you're doing.

God I'm glad I'll never have to play with a faggot like you.

>>50724440
No, I just accept that you don't have to carry your high school science class baggage into a fantastic setting.

>>50724423
I understand the language behind it, but I'm saying the limits being placed on it are ridiculous.

Okay, since I'm a retard, explain to me: what is magic in D&D terms, and what distinguishes it from psionics and other things?

>>50721602
4E, is that you?

Has this been done: martials use precision and skill to pick apart their opponents and set up successively more powerful strikes? Inflicting debuffs and self-buffs with their attacks to build momentum? At highest levels attacking like a Platinum Games protagonist.

>>50724460

Nope.

Nobody is insisting things have to be mundane. They're just pointing out that they are necessarily magical, supernatural or otherwise either. It's about nuance and how things vary from setting to setting, you blithering fucknugget.

>>50724494
So, comboing and success spiral.

>>50724494

Outside of D&D and its shadow, yes. Within it, not that I've seen.

>>50724508
I suppose. Maybe balanced by combos being easier to disrupt the higher they go?

>>50724517
Cool, any particular systems you know?

>>50724451
Ah okay, I accept that then.

>>50724528

Legends of the Wulin's entire combat system is somewhat momentum based, with fighters racking up Ripples on each other that translate into more and more serious injuries as time goes on. Everyone has access to a few core debuff abilities that anyone can use without any investment, but Warriors in the system also get some specific techniques and abilities to enhance them, as well as letting use tactics and insight to get one over an enemy.

I love the system, but it's rather clunky and the core rule book is unfortunately awfully edited, which makes getting into it and understanding it a real fucking pain.

>>50724488
Magic is a specific method of invoking the supernatural. It's like asking the difference between paintings and artwork. All paintings are artwork (in the general sense, not in the colloquial sense), but not all artwork is in the form of paintings.

>>50724506
Mundane or Magical vary with the setting.
Why does a fantasy setting needs to have real world physics?
Why is that the PnP rpg comunity finds Charles Atlas style superpowers so baffling?

>>50724568

No idea. That's exactly what I'm advocating.

>>50724488
Invocation of certain arts that perform the supernatural.

>>50721133
Make magic how it was presented in the olden days rather than how modern day wannabe weebs perceive it.
Back to the times where the real mage was the master smith.
You rarely heard of anyone casting a fireball or destroying whole armies at a time with a single OP spell. They rarely were thought to fight directly.
What they could do is transform (Fafnir, Otter), see the future (Odin, Oracles), scry and spy, curse, teleport/summon rescue (Medea) and SOMETIMES conjure. I think Medea or Merlin were the only ones to directly kill with magic.

>>50724577
>>50724563
Okay... so magic is invoking the supernatural via particular actions.

>>50724591
Exactly.

Just like how a Fighter Drop-kicking a Hydra into a volcano is no doubt Supernatural, but not magic.

It's the difference between rowing a boat and Swimming.

Both move a person through water ( Do supernatural things ) but are different methods. ( magic uses Magical arts/bloodlines/godpower, Martials use their physical body )

>>50724612

>Just like how a Fighter Drop-kicking a Hydra into a volcano is no doubt Supernatural, but not magic.

In some settings it might not even be supernatural, depending on the default state of things in that particular world and set of metaphysics. Not saying it has to be one way or the other, just pointing out the option that it could be either.

>>50724591
Exactly. There's also simply supernatural states of beings, where things are supernatural all the time and don't have to invoke it. E.g., a ghost isn't magic, nor is a dragon, but they are supernatural.

If psionics and other alternate invocation forms didn't exist, I'd say that magic simply was invoking the supernatural, and that supernatural phenomenon that did not require invocation are not magic. Hell, I'd define psionics as a form of magic the same as cleric, warlock, and warlock magic, but some people don't truck with that.

>>50724612
So, someone drop-kicking a hydra into a volcano is magic... as long as they asked their god before hand/chanted a bunch/had a dragon for a great-great-great grandfather?

>>50724632
I always use "natural" as a state of normalcy. Sure people CAN become Hydra drop-kicking badasses, but your NORMAL joe doesn't.

>>50724636
Now see, you raise a good point here... because if magic is the usage of particular actions to invoke the supernatural... wouldn't that apply to psionics?

>>50724650
If the thing that specifically allowed them to dropkick the Hydra into a Volcano was God/chanted/Dragonblood given. Then yes.

If they did it with their balls to the wall strength? Then no.

>>50724650
Maybe. If the chanting or asking the God actually granted them the power to drop-kick it into a volcano, then yes. If they could do so without those actions, and just performed them as a spiritual kiai or focusing method, then no. For the dragon blood, depends on if they did so through the dragon's inherent strength, or by calling on supernatural power through their Draconic blood.

>>50722403
Source?

>>50724699
See, this just makes me want a Dragonblood Monk Archtype, who instead of manifesting the magical skills of a dragon, manifests their physical prowess.

>>50724671
Ah, so a demigod is magical?

But... wait... >>50724636 said that dragons aren't magical.

But someone who is descended from dragons is?

Gods aren't magical either?

>>50724715
No, Gods Dragons and Demigods are not inherently magical, They are however Supernatural.

>>50724715
Dragons themselves aren't, but they have the innate ability to use magic. Their giant size, scales, and fiery breath aren't magic, but when they invoke the supernatural it doesn't stop being magic just because they're a dragon.

>>50721133
Well fampai-tachi, considering that verisimilitude literally just means "what seems right in context" all you have to do is set the context to one that allows people to do cool things. Make your wuxia character for a wuxia setting instead of the noir setting.

>>50724715
If you cast Anti-magic field on a dragon does it just die?

>>50721133
Give any non-caster a good way to silence casters.

>>50724636
Just wanting to point out, but in D&D, ghosts are magical. They get cancelled out when in an antimagic field.

>>50724745
>>50724735
Okay, so they're not magical, and neither is their strength. But someone using their draconic strength from their bloodline is.

Good to know.

>>50724786

And this is why insisting on precisely categorising everything is kinda unhelpful.

>>50721133
Apply anime rules. I prefer FMA Brotherhood myself.

>>50724793
Ah, but anon, that way leads to narrative gaming systems.

>>50724786
Having Draconic blood does not make you magical no.

It gives you an Affinity to perform the magical however.

Just like Dragons are not magical, but they have an Affinity to perform the magical.

Magic is an act performed, Magical elements are made through those acts performed.

>>50724558
>LoTW
I really want to play that game, but the rules are hard to understand and groups are hard to find.

>>50724912

It's a bitch. The state it was published in was a fucking travesty, and the publisher imploding shortly afterwards mean we'll never see a better version or more content. I just hope someone else eventually builds a system making use of some of the same ideas.

>>50724843
So basically a fighter with access to the supernatural would not need to use actions to access it.

>>50724981
Well, it's still a fine system from what I hear, just designed terribly.

Say, do you happen to have a group that wants to play? I'd be ever thankful if you'd allow a lonely neckbeard to join.

>>50724755
No, but theoretically a monk could.

Diamond Body is a Supernatural Ability (a game term) and thus magical (another one).

If a sufficiently damaged Monk walked into an antimagic field whose floor was covered with Sassone leaf residue, they could in fact die from the damage, when without the field they wouldn't.

(Or with socks, stupid barefoot monks.)

>>50725014

Sadly none of the groups I'm in at the moment are recruiting. Sorry dude.

>>50725049
Eh, was worth a shot.

>>50724440
I think this is just a point of view difference: some people say "it breaks the REAL WORLD laws of physics, so let's call it magic" other say "in doesn't break the IN SETTING laws of physics so it's not magic". Arguing over it only helps making the thread worse and puts against each other people who would agree on everything else. Just stop it.

>>50721133
GET RID OF FEATS.

They're the worst thing that's holding martials back and limiting player ingenuity.

>>50725572

Can you explain this logic? Because I don't follow.

>>50725656
Evveryone gets feats, but only martials HAVE to use them to increase the potential of their character's main abilities - i.e. dealing damage. Everyone else just benefits from them, while martials are forced to use them effectively or fail to be what they are supposed to be.

Adding on class abilities that don't force feat reliance would be a boon to them.

>>50725690

That seems like grounds for a redesign/redefinition more than scrapping the idea entirely. And despite what else people might think of 4e, it did make feats (outside of its unfortunate couple of tax feats) interesting and varied bonuses that benefited every class. Heck, even the tax feats applied universally.

>>50725748
Redo system, make Feats martials only, make them even more impressive.

They're real feats of strength.

>So how do you give martials cool abilities without it breaking "versimilitude"?

Have people who know how to fight design Martials. The problem is that these supposed highly trained experts at combat are designed 'realistically' by people whose idea of rigorous physical exercise is walking across the street to arbys and getting winded on the way back.

>>50721415
What there's a guy who can do that?!

>>50727205
Remember whatching a dude intercepting a revolver bullet with a sword in a documentary (the dude was already famous for cutting super fast baseball balls). It wrecked the sword tho. It was about the highest end of athetic abilities

>>50724704
Katanagatari

>>50721188
A martial is only as fun as your imagination is. Of course it's going to be boring if you just say "I hit him with my sword."

If you put some thought out into describing your attacks and enjoy putting in that effort then it will be fun.

>>50721133
Play in a system/setting where maritals having cool abilities doesn't break versimilitude.

Versimilitude is just a setting's INTERNAL consistency. Which is why I value it over realism.

>>50727523
Having actually done that before? No, you're a total fucking retard, describing the exact same thing differently over and over with zero variability to what it actually does is shit and you should die in a fire for defending it.

>>50722403
Where thr fuck did you get that video, it wasn't part of the series

>>50724284
>Doing AoA
>Doing AoAs at all
Must be boring toying with enemies so weak they don't immediately fuck you up after using AoA.

>>50721303
>
You know, 2e kinda has something like that in the maneuvers. Different specializations actually allow you to use more/different/more frequently those manuevers.

>>50727523
>a martial is only as fun as your imagination

Not when your DM is a draconian asshole that fights you on every little thing because of some illusion of versimilitude thats complete bullshit solely on basis of how extraordinary abilities are defined.

>>50721303
5E kind of tried to do that but it ruined basically everything else about the combat.

>>50728526
5e's playtest tried to do that.
For the actual release, they backpedaled so hard, they crashed the combat system into a wall.

>>50728608
Wait, really?

>>50728608
But... why?

>>50728628
Kind of. Combat maneuvers aren't a total waste of space in the final game, it's really an issue with everything else rather than them, but in the playtest the BM's superiority dice were for ALL martials and had a wider selection of effects, plus stuff like battle Clerics would get smaller pools of it, and refreshed every single round.

>>50721303
HERO system is great because even low level goons could work together by using basic tactics to stop a more powerful enemy

>>50728665
And it was all scrapped because the 3.PF fanbase would be furious at martials getting something interesting.

>>50728691
Idiots cried on the forums about martials getting damage on a miss until it was taken out.

>>50728716
>damage on a miss

uh, correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't that not make sense? is there more to this i'm not seeing, or?

>>50728741
It wasn't full damage. Think of it like doing half damage if someone saved against a fireball.

>>50728741
Failing to penetrate AC=/=missing.

>>50728770
I really wish they'd replace AC with DR for armour.

It doesn't feel particularly armoured, despite their explanation.

>>50728770
he specifically said a miss, which is where my confusion came from.

>>50728805
If they'd do this, I'd start playing DnD. But I just can't take AC and HP seriously.

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Easy.

Martials either die human, or they stop being human altogether.

There is a point where the human body just cannot continue against the odds, and you either die as a human or you keep on going without your humanity.

>picture was a toss up between Skull Knight and Doomguy, but since you posted Guts, it became Skull Knight. Doomguy is a good example of another martial human that has ascended/descended/transcended his humanity - he's pretty much a demon now.

>>50728741
You're missing that HP are not meat points (except when some game element implies they are because nobody bothered to think through what they're actually writing) and that the in-game nature of "attacks" in the mechanical sense is ill-defined.

>>50728823
I just hate how armour is represented by what amounts to dodge chance.

It's stupid.

>>50728891
>implying the primordial god of warriors didn't allow himself to get torn to shreds so every worthy warrior can tap into his essence

>>50727523
>If you put some thought out into describing your attacks and enjoy putting in that effort then it will be fun.
The issue is that it there's not much motivation in dressing up every round of combat with pretty words if it has no effect on the actual combat and doesn't even reflect what is going on mechanically. Purple prose only takes you so far.

>>50722403
It still amuses me how that the shark was cut by the beam of light reflecting off his sword rather than an actual strike.

>>50724094
What would be interesting is the rest of the universe gaining verisimilitude.

> Dragon creates lighter-than-air flammable gas that allows them to fly and/or breath in a gout of flames. Doing so, however, cripple their ability to fly.

>>50729267
This. It's not fun, it doesn't make combat more interesting, and there is no situation in which I would rather take stupid bullshit classes like Mr. Full Attack the Fighter instead of a class like the Warblade because with the latter, I not only get to reflavor to my heart's content, I can pick abilities that actually reflect what I want to do instead of nothing but flat damage.

>without breaking verisimilitude
Just have it be a sci-fi setting with crazy robot parts. Alternatively, spirits infest worthy warriors, and when they fight, they're empowered by the holy energy of the maguffin. Just make some vaguely coherent explaination and stick to it, verisimilitude is context and setting dependant. Now, to make it plausible or palatable is all a matter of tact and flourish.

>>50729409
I'd adore a DM who gave you situational buffs if you play cleverly and theatrically.

>>50721188
>>50721215
I do think martials deserve a little bit more than what they're given as far as martial maneuvering goes. The system was extremely strict on martials while spoiling the shit out of casters. Tripping, disarming, shoving, and feinting should be a much smoother and accessible part of the combat flow. You shouldn't need two to three feats to make them any one of them work, they should just be available. You should definitely be able to shove someone back and attack them in the same round. You should be able to feint and trip interchangeably within a full attack. "Combat Expertise" should be a CLASS FEATURE of fighter and monk.

>>50729594
Instead of giving them access to multiple attacks via full attacking, give them access to multiple attacks for standard rounds.

>>50729628
Absolutely.

Although do keep in mind that there is great potential for martials to be broken in certain campaigns. What they lack is versatility, but they can easily outpace casters in consistent damage output in a lot of basic encounters.

>>50728891
Guts was already ridiculously superhuman way before being branded

>>50721133
Ignore anyone shrieking about their verisimilitude, for one.

>>50731273
This.

>>50728312
The preview at the end of episode 3. That Webm's all you're getting.

>>50730655
But damage has always been the worst way to deal with enemies.

>>50721133
>verosimilitude
So casters can warp reality but martials can't even defy it? how do you expect them to be equally useful?

>>50729594
Combat expertise is shit anyway

>>50727205
https://youtu.be/Qzhs1Z8Rwnk?t=1m23s

>>50721161
this

Use nen

http://hunterxhunter.wikia.com/wiki/Nen

>>50721133
>So how do you give martials cool abilities without it breaking "versimilitude"?

You usually don't. You shouldn't have "abilities" with a martial character if you're not playing some kind of an Anime game where it's crucial to yell out the names of your attacks. Instead, you are simply automatically able to do (or at least attempt) anything that's reasonably physically possible for a sufficiently trained warrior. The whole notion of turning things you could simply do as you please into feats that you had to buy was one of the worst ideas of 3E, and 4E only made the problem worse.

>>50721181
Verisimilitude just means realism. The word only got invented because faggots like you didn't stop going BUH BUH DRAGONS ARENT REALISTIC and people got sick of it.

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>>50732307
>So casters can warp reality but martials can't even defy it? how do you expect them to be equally useful?

Are you really going on with that tired old fucking argument? Really?

Usefulness is purely a matter of numbers. Mathematics. Set the numbers in such a way that the classes are equal in power. That's it. You don't need to alter the flavor or core concept of a class. You don't need to turn Fighter into a Naruto Ninja.

>>50733010
Changing the numbers on what happens when you hit someone with a sword doesn't fix the sheer bullshit that is the usually complained about magic systems.

>>50727023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzhs1Z8Rwnk

Go full weeb, it's the only answer

>>50728628
The early playtest material tried to do a lot of cool and different shit with almost all the classes
Too bad they decided to go back to doing the same shit they always have

>>50733010
>Casters have +10 to walk through walls, fly, open any door, teleport 1km, breath water, burrow, etc
>Martials have +0 to all of that
Yes, numbers, but they kinda matter. You think this is only To Hit and damage?

If magic is the only way you can imagine a character gaining ability beyond a certain point then maybe everyone should be at least a little magic beyond a certain point. There's no thematic reason a "fighting-man" can't have sword magic or whatever in a world where magic is a thing. If anything it makes a lot of sense such a thing would be the case since from the characters perspective the limitations of not using magic should be even more clear

>>50728741
Yet casters still deal damage or effect (partial effects) on a miss and nobody complains.

>>50732965
>The whole notion of turning things you could simply do as you please into feats that you had to buy was one of the worst ideas of 3E, and 4E only made the problem worse.

At least in 3rd thats not what feats did at all, almost all the martial feats were new things added.

Before 3rd ed DnD warriors were HP pool, Thac0 scaling and weapon specialization, mastery, grandmastery. (Which was just a Thac0 / damage bonus extra attacks per round(s).) and nothing more.

When feats were added to 3rd edition they didnt take away things you could simply do. The problem was they sucked compared to the meta magic feats on top of magic users getting more class tools to build those feats off of in the first place.

>>50722136
Agreed.

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>>50722136
I think martial should have some way to scale better than non martials with magical gear too.

That badass sword and shield is still only as good as you make it, and the extra level of defensive and offensive stopping power would be something a skilled and creative martial would use to their advantage.

>The dragon swipes its massive claw at you, as you leap backards and curl behind your trusty shield force breaker.
>For the few moments youre in the air in tandem with the beasts swinging arm you get an attck thankfully you plunge your long sword wurm biter into the beasts fore arm.
>Roll a climb / grapple check please.

Maybe a bit extreme and simplified but I think to whatever degree the setting allows for it, martial classes should scaled up with gear in better / more interesting ways.

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Here's my understanding:

Trolls can regenerate from a finger. Rocs, despite being twice the size of an elephant and still built like a bird, are able to fly no sweat.

These are supernatural abilities enatured to these creatures but they aren't magical. They still function in anti-magic fields. Magic, therefore, needs to specifically be something inherently unique. A force or power that is unrelated to this... uniqueness?

Simply put a martial class should be training... not to make himself able to regenerate like a troll or a bird since that may not be thematic but still able to do things outside the realm of reason. They should be exemplifying human ability and going beyond what is possible.

This isn't even getting into how "verisimilitude" is a two-way street if you really think about it. I mean: the casual dismissal of universal laws should LOGICALLY be almost impossible or have serious drawbacks right? Why would "magic" simply negate all that could potentially fuck up here?

Martials can train up to the peak of the humanoid condition; if they want to grow stronger from there, they must rely on two things: magical artifacts or creatures.

By spending time with the creatures of the world, they can copy their martial techniques and becomes essentially superhuman, but not necessarily "magical".

On the other hand, the more you use a magical artifact, the more the magic belongs to you. For example, if you have a knife with 20 feet of short teleportation, you will begin to absorb that power for yourself. Over time, you would drain the enchantment on the weapon and absorb it to your character, bit by bit. In the end, the knife would become just a normal knife and the 20 teleportation would belong to you as a character. That way, no matter what weapon you used, that knife's power sticks. In this way, fighters can become like gods. Casters also make a great risk for themselves by enchanting items, as it is a potential boon for martials to strike back at them with.

Gods are also a viable option, as always.

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>>50733953
D&D 3.5 actually already had a system like this. Abilities were classed as Extraordinary (Ex.), Spell-Like (Sp.) or Supernatural (Su.) The others are self explanatory, but Extraordinary abilities? These are defined as abilities that are nonmagical, but can still break the laws of physics. Troll regeneration does in fact fall under that classification.

More people spouting "verisimilitude" need to take a look at Extraordinary abilities and how the Rogue (and Barbarian before they were made magical) in particular runs on doing impossible shit with them. Discounting the fact that with Evasion a Rogue can dodge the explosion of a Necklace of Fireballs they happen to be wearing, there's also this:

>Trap Sense (Ex)
>At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps...

>Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
>Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so.

Rogues explicitly have the ability to dodge attacks they aren't aware of, before they sense them. Through nothing but training. Barbarians had the same ability, through nothing but anger.

I frankly do not understand how someone can watch a Rogue dodge a surprise attack from an invisible soundless opponent and then dodge an explosion that reduces the building to rubble (with a bonus because it was a trap, you see), and then say "Fighters should be limited to real world physics or it breaks verisimilitude."

>>50734568
I always wondered why monks don't have uncanny dodge

>>50732880
This is a neat idea, actually

>>50733394
to be fair, i complain about it a lot. I like playing martials, and i don't like being comparatively gimped next to other base, core classes because wizards of the coast were bullied by jocks in high school.

>>50734628
Because they can't ever have anything useful.

>>50734865
i dunno, some of the stuff they get is pretty good. Its just that they are islands inbetween dead levels and nigh useless situational abilities as well.

>>50721133
In my setting, everyone is born with a fraction of the power that created the entire universe back in the day and everyone harnesses and puts it to use differently, even if it is unbeknownst to them.

For example the most powerful mortal in the setting at the moment is a fighter, complete with low wisdom and intelligence scores.

But it is this lack of knowledge and logic that allows him to have faith in his own actions, unwittingly channeling his inherent spark to empower himself and the weapons he wields to accomplish what is generally considered by most to be impossible.

Just like throwing fire would normally be considered impossible, with his brawn and his blade he can break the unbreakable and weather the most fatal of blows, because he believes he can and more importantly, will do so.

>>50734177
So, basically FF9/Tactics weapon-skill system.

Not actually a terrible idea, but I'm curious about the balancing of it, mainly in regards to a cap on the number abilities one can master/the strength of a single given ability, and how long it would take to master.

>>50728671
As if a mere VIPER five-team could make a PC weep and cry with humiliation and shame.

Oh wait, they can. Good times.

>>50721133
>versimilitude
You gently set it aside out of the way where it will be safe and then give them cool abilities.

>>50731250
We've seen several humans who could beat Guts before the Eclipse. He killed one of them only with the help of Zodd.

>>50721133
Give them save or suck abilities that can affect anything they hit each turn. Nothing is immune to being stunned by an axe. No attack can overcome the deflection skills of a sword master. Any creature can be strangled to death by a bolo master. Any creature can be impaled and prevented from moving by a bow master. Etc.

The idea is debuffs based on martial might that can affect anything and can be used at will. Now they're useful without being as versatile as a wizard.

If your party is averse to weeaboo fightan magic but wants to do cool shit, give them cool magic items.

If they want to do superhuman things without magic items while being totally realistic humans, tell them to make up their damn minds.

>>50733367
But why?

>>50738082
Because 5e was never intended to be a good game.
It wasn't even intended to be its own game.
Its only goal is being so bland and mediocre that it pisses of neither the pre-3e crowd, nor the 3.PF crowd, nor the 4e crowd.

It is to RPGs what AAA games are to video games: easily marketable drivel that would never be able to stand on its own, were it not for the brand name.

>>50721133
You establish them as supernatural from the very, very beginning. Break the players of "guy from the gym" early, so they won't apply it when things get large-scale.

>>50724370
>non-supernatural abilities
>that break the laws of nature
durrhurr derp derp
How about liquids that aren't liquid?
How about papyrus that isn't made of papyrus?
How about meat that contains no protein?

>People in here want good feats
>People in here want classes with multiple martial abilities
>People in here want fighters to be scaled up rather than wizards going down
>People in here want all martials to have access to these abilities
>ctrl+f Fantasy Craft
>No results

It fixes literally all the complaints about D&D in this thread. I'm not joking. Also it's really easy to GM.

>>50738273
Spellbound never.

>>50738260
>what is fiction
I bet you think magic can be explained by scientific method too.

>>50738273
And has zero support.

>>50738314
Supernatural is what breaks laws of nature
What breaks laws of nature is supernatural

I don't understand what are you arguing

>>50738317
>Adventure Companion
>The Call to Arms series
um

And besides, is 3.X still supported? What's better, a system with a ton of content where most of it is unbalanced crap, or a balanced, well-designed system with less content but tools for converting the first system's monsters and guides for recreating the races and classes?

>>50731250
I would say Guts was still very human up to that point. My favorite example is when he fights off the hundred men, and the doctor they have said he took it too far and his body won't be able to handle fighting anymore. Luckily they had elf dust, but I still liked it for establishing guts limits (however higher they might be than some other shmuck's).

>>50738363
>yfw you realize that newer PF stuff is balanced around Tier 3
Supported and balanced.

>>50732263
Only when Save or Die and Save or Suck spells and abilities are incredibly reliable and spell damage is far less so.

3.X D&D is really bad about Casters having a SoD/SoS for every save and bad saves DCs scaling far faster than targets bad saves. This leads to SoD/SoS spells having 60%+ success rates when higher level single target damage spells deal less than 1/3 of a targets hp.

The best way to balance save or die spells is have their success rates be roughly the same as the average % of hp removed by a damage spell of the same tier.

>>50738409
>Only their newer stuff
Too little, too late.

>>50738260
That was kind of my point, it's an inherently contradictory idea.

(Of course, in D&D it's still true. Extraordinary abilities which break laws of physics aren't supernatural. But supernatural abilities are inherently magical)

>>50738587
SOD/SOS spells should be outright nullified if the target is at more than X% HP or had twice as many HD as spell levels. X equaling the spell level x10.

>>50729388
This. Would even allow greater strategy. Should we allow the dragon to do fly by attacks or should we hurt its wings, risking it to blow flame upon us once on the ground?

>>50721133
I don't play D&D?
Fuck dude, this isn't a difficult question.

>>50721133
Have combat be represented by positioning to attempt a killing blow, or choosing to try crippling hits instead. Against normal humans 1 - 3 rolls.

Armor increases the DC for KBLOW attempts. Wearing armour without training lowers the DC for positioning though, as does cheaper/heavier armour unless it's full plate or something.

As they gain more experience, let them get skills that represent it by allowing re-rolls for KBLOW or more complicated manoeuvres for dealing with enemies in armour, or multiple enemies, or disarming, reducing DCs etc.

Make it so fighting fast and lethal, especially against non-fighter enemies. If the fighter is close enough to stab your mage, your mage should alreadalready be dead.

>>50721133
try learning about real martial arts and shit, use that as skills for your character. Make him learn grappling, how to properly throw a punch, how to disarm opponents and different stances, counters and fencing techniques and describe how your character fights when you use said skills. Also learn about strategy

>>50741171
"Ok, thats'...nice. Now roll the fucking dice, Bob. ...no, you don't get a bonus, shut the fuck up and roll the fucking dice, you're holding the game up."

>Steve: I want to throw this spear really hard and hit a target 600 feet away
>GM: Nah mate, bit fuckin unrealistic dontcha think? You can't do that shit in real life
>Jim: I want to summon a 700 foot tall being from another dimension and rain down meteors on the dragon
>GM: Yeah cool mate, roll for it

makes u think

>>50721188
Give them various stances and maneuvers that provide benefits in combat. So if you want to play an aggressive fighter focused purely on DPS you can fight like a lunatic doing more damage but having a lower AC. Likewise you could make your character into a walking tank that regular humans can either never hit or never punch through your armour. Also special equipment would be interesting too, not just magical weapons but normal weapons that are just uniquely powerful oftentimes simply by virtue of their size. Since by the time you reach mid to upper levels you are pretty much a demigod perhaps fighters could carry tree trunks as clubs or swords that are 10 feet long and weight 20 lbs or longbows with draw weights in excess of 200 lbs

Supernatural is relative. A dragon is supernatural IRL, but not in-setting.
So you can make a fighter that is supernatural to RL ones, but absolutely inside the nature of your setting, making the term relative.

And I liked the idea of every fighter attack apply a status effect alongside damage. As 4e did...

>>50722403
That shark literally did nothing

>>50741207
also interesting if you fail and the opponent does something in return

>btw that sounds like a terrible gm

>>50741393
No, it sounds like someone using the rules, and getting annoyed at your stupid bullshit.

If you want something like that, go for a rules system that has it integrated, stop trying to push that shit into a game that doesn't support it in anyway. It never adds anything, and just slows shit down.

>btw, you sound like a dogshit player
Use capitalization, you lazy fuck.

>>50721188
mounted combat, grappling, disarming, dirty tricking, and bullrushing (dungeon crasher is fucking awesome).

>>50721381
>Level 10 caster is rougly equivalent to level 25 martial in terms of power level.

Assuming WBL and cohorts aren't a thing.

>>50741443
You mean that shit casters also get?

Playing them in a setting without magic.
Why are people so fucking stupid?

" durr I'm not uh real martial cuz I use magic!"- OP

>>50741451
because a level 10 caster would have the WBL and cohort of a level 25 martial?

>>50741422
now i know you are trolling

>>50741896
>I got called out and shut down
>T-troll!
And fucking.

CAPITALIZE. YOU GODDAMN SUBHUMAN.

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You'd think this would be easier for people to figure out
Just straight up cool shit
Superhuman reactions and strength
Nothing wrong with straight up baseline stats amped up to fuck

>>50724489
It is
But everyone's too buttmad over 3.5, pathfinder and 5th edition to realize what's good anymore.