EDH/Commander General

>black is my favorite colour
>want to build three decks that have black in them
>need three diabolic tutors and three vampiric tutors

Just.

>>50682461
I mean, I'll give you three Vampirics being a kick in the dick, but three Diabolic Tutors is less than a dollar.

Unless you meant Demonic.

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>Discord circlejerk

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/w-e-i-r-d-s-c-i-e-n-c-e/

BEHOLD, my rework of a bad Mizzix deck.

I also probably need work on my shitty Thrax deck.

You'd think 100 cards with only 1 of each in a deck would make it easy to build decks, but there's still like 20 cards I wanna add and nothing to remove for them...

>>50682482
I keep confusing those two, yeah I meant demonic.

>>50682518
Mandatory 45ish cards for mana and extras for deck manipulation, redundant effects, removal, and the skeleton list for the deck's theme really don't leave much wiggle room for some Commanders. Made a Freyalise deck the other day I had to make 26 cuts from to get it down to size and it was painful.

>>50682588
>45ish cards for mana
How many fucking mana rocks are you running?

>>50682632
I stick to about 37 to 39 lands. Then 5 to 7 additional resources of either ramp spells or rocks, the higher the curve the higher number of mana sources. It's been the magic number for me.

You ever have one of those games where you don't do anything for the whole fucking game and then, suddenly, you win?

Happened to me. Buddy plays what I would call Daxos pillow fort. Windborn Muse, Blazing Archon, Propaganda, that sort of thing. He'd made a bunch of 2/2 tokens and they were all flying because the other guy had made him mill a shit load and Wonder went in the graveyard. So Daxos guy was gonna win.

Meanwhile, I was playing Niv-Mizzet and had done nothing all game. Just nothing was coming into my hand. I had Niv and Jace's Archivist down when Daxos flew in to swarm both of us. I played Blue Sun's Zenith in response, filled my hand to thirteen cards and then wheeled with the Archivist, making Daxos guy draw to his death. Only had twelve cards in his library.

Next turn was mine and the other guy was tapped out, so there was nothing stopping me from doing it again and killing him with Niv damage.

So I won, but it was weirdly unsatisfying.

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>>50682322
>Jank
Never have I experienced such a mess of missed triggers and messy stacks, still love it though.
>>50682498
You'll probably want Cruise and Dig, with only 10 artifacts and 1 artifact token generator you probably won't have Metallurgic Summons online most of the time though it's first ability is still great. Did they print a token for it?
D E S O L A T E L I G H T H O U S E

>>50682688
Future Sight truly was the best set.

>>50682688
Summoning is really only there to attach bodies to my spells, I didn't even read what the second ability was to be perfectly honest with you.

I'll figure out what to trim for Cruise and Dig, though; part of my irritation with the original Mizzix deck was it felt like the deck was all filters/draws/fixing and no actual gas, so I probably overcorrected. Thank you for the input.

>>50682588

I'm running 36 lands right now. Either I'm overflowing in mana, or starving for one extra critical Plains or something.

I just wrote up a maybeboard of all the cards I'd like along with their prices and if my FLGS has them in stock or not. All of them would be nice, but one in particular I know I'm gonna need to make room for since it's just so important, but it's not for sale there and I'd hate to order online from somewhere else.

>>50682745
Gotta online list to solicit anonymous opinions on the cuts?

>>50682745
I really admire you wanting to support your local shop, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with defaulting to 'buy online' if the shop just doesn't have the card you want.

>>50682776

Sure
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-12-16-wGb-test/

I've changed it quite a few times now, and this is definitely the best it's running, but the big cards I'd love to add are Inexorable Tide, and Viral Drake for more proliferates. I'm also playing with the idea of adding a Vraska the Unseen and/or a Nissa, Voice of Zendikar and a bunch of other nice cards but again, no clue what to drop. I also feel like I'm too low on removal.

The deck is just stuck in a weird spot because it's struggling with being an infect deck while also being a +1/+1 counter deck, and it doesn't quite know which it is sometimes.

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>>50682322
Run this in all my decks that include Dimir. It's strangely fun to play with. The name also makes for great jokes, and the card is very flavorful too.

>Discord
Fuck off.

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>>50682322
>Thread question: What's a fun auto-include jank card you run?
I love darksteel reactor, mainly because I love people looking at the Doom clock and trying to work out how to stop it.

Current decks and Links for those who care.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ezuri-rip/
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/teysas-darkest-hour-rip/
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dragonforcedec-kolaghan/
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/trumpets-intensify-liu-bei/
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-torture-room-cao-cao/
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/pillage-and-burn-lu-bu/
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ambush-lady-zhurong/
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/infiltration-lu-xun/
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-burning-host-aurelia/
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-conjurer-cutie/
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-swarm-insect-tribal/
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/gonna-drop-the-sky-on-ya/
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/step-1-pick-up-deck-step-2-throw-at-friend/

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>>50682488
>>50683178
Look how cool I am with my unpopular opinion

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Hey I'm interested in building pic related as a spellslinger deck. Can R/G tangle with spell slinging Izzet decks, or will I always be a step behind? I don't expect to have the potential of a commander like Mizzex, but I'd like to still maintain a passable threat. There's lots of good utility for destroying artifacts, enchantments, lands, and even nuking creatures in the colors.

I plan to run an amount of "fuck you, blue!" With pyro/red elemental blast and Boil/Boiling Seas. You can get reasonably big mana and kill with fireball type spells, but while it is amusing I'm struggling to see any clear or unique advantage R/G spellslinger would have over U/R. Am I missing any key things, or would this kind of deck just be needlessly handycapping myself?

>>50683497
Your biggest problem is that dropping blue for green hurts your card-drawing ability. Green CAN draw cards, but it generally requires some creature-centric shit, which won't be at full potential in a 'spellslinging' deck.

>>50683178
OP here. Channel has been requested for several threads now. Last thread finely got one made and they asked it was included in next thread. If it doesn't take off then next thread maker can remove it if they want. Just trying to help the general out.

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>>50682322
>friend tells me to try Reddit's EDH board
>find shit like this https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/5i3xk5/making_an_edh_league_and_need_a_points_list_where/ floating around
Oh fuck I can't stop laughing. Any of you guys play with house rules this retarded?

>>50683568
Hey, a points league can be interesting. It's the best way to encourage people not to just build pubstomp shit or uninteractive combo decks to rack up 'wins'.

>>50683515
cards like wild guess turn into card advantage with her, and run some green card recursion so at least you can get two cards back and play again. i went for a land ramp/hate theme

>>50683602
>But We Just Started!, -4 points: Eliminate an opponent before the 45-minute timer has gone off
>Too Many Options!, -1 point: Draw/add more than 6 cards to your hand; only net card gain is counted (so looting effects are +0 cards), and exceptions are made if the effect explicitly says "draw seven" (eg, Wheel of Fortune)
>It's Legit, Just Not THAT Legit, -1 point: Eliminate more than one opponent using poison counters
How could anyone be this autistic?

>>50683477
I come to 4chan specifically for anonymous discussion, and Discord is explicitly not anonymous.

>>50683614
The problem is she costs a lot to set that up, and she's really easy to kill for how much she costs. Without her on board, your cards become loot effects again.

>>50683568
I know people who play with a rule that you can have 3 cards in your deck that don't have the right color identity, they have a houserule where you can use any legendary permanent as commander (one dude had Urborg as commander once), and they play with 20 poison counters.

I haven't gone within 50 feet of these retards since I heard this.

>>50683634
To be fair, I had not read the actual things before I posted, I thought the general 'what the fuck' was the concept of a points league.

I'm okay with using 'penalties' to discourage stuff that saps the fun out of the game (I have no problems with -1 point for chaining 3 turns, for example, or a harsh penalty for the Douche Scoop), but yeah, those are a bit much. I'm fine (in theory, at least) with something to discourage KOing someone super early, but "no deaths before 45 minutes" is just cancerous. Some games go quicker.

>>50683568
>Banned Aetherflux Reservoir, Chaos Orb, Deadeye Navigator, Entomb, Falling Star, Food Chain, Gaea’s Cradle, Grindstone, Hermit Druid, Imperial Seal, Kozilek Butcher of Truth, Loyal Retainers, Mana Drain, Mishra’s Workshop, Palinchron, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Triumph of the Hordes, Ulamog the Infinite Gyre, and Vampiric Tutor (In addition to the normal banlist. I modified the 1vs1 and added some problem cards)
Every time I go in, I come out with more gold

>>50683515
Yeah, I understand the clear disadvantages of dropping blue, but I'm looking, I'm just looking for cards in green that would justify that swap. It isn't a straight up downgrade, green has a lot of nice land ramp spells and obviously great creatures, but I'm not sure if it's good enough for the deck archetype to trade that color.

I like the gimmick factor of playing "out of left field" decks, but at the same time I don't want to play a shittier version of an Izzet deck just so I can feel unique. Basically, I think Wort has a great ability, but I'm struggling to think of/find good things to use it with.

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>>50683515
There are a few ways around this with this deck: Doubling up on cantrips and, even better, doubling up on Tormenting Voice effects, where the discard is an additional cost, not an effect of the spell.

Pic related is also great in this deck. It's like a non-permanent friendly Genesis Wave.

>>50683654
Stupidest thing I've seen is people who houseruled that foil card did 'double'.

As in, a foil Llanowar Elves would be a 2/2 for G, and would tap for GG. A foil Mana Crypt tapped for 6 mana. A foil Lightning Bolt does 6 damage, etc.

I have no idea why they houseruled that, because they barely had any foil cards.

>>50683568
Anon I unfortunately browse that board and I'd heavily advise staying the fuck away from it. It"s a constant back and forth jerkathon between competitive players and 75% players.

And no I don't house rule. Some guy a few threads ago talked about his playgroup letting someone run 5 colors with Emrakul as his commander and I laughed pretty hard.

>>50683693
>Justify that swap
Oh, all you need to justify the swap is "I wanna build this deck". Just because you're gonna run into some problems with card advantage doesn't mean it's untenable, it's just a weakness you need to be aware of. Kinda like how a R/U deck is gonna have a slightly hard time dealing with creatures and enchantments.

If you're trying specifically to do "Spellslinging, but in RG" you're making a shittier version of an Izzet deck, but if you're doing "Fun spells to conspire" that's a whole other kind of deck, so you're golden.

>>50683698
I never thought I'd see someone make EDH even more p2w. But hot damn if that doesn't do it.

>>50683665
>douche scoop

Anon, it's just conceding. Remember that only minorities and women are allowed to rename and redefine things in order to pretend somebody has harmed them.

>>50683866
Conceding is fine. "Douche scoop" is usually used to refer to 'strategic concession', like conceding in response to a Prophetic Bolt that would kill you so your opponent doesn't get any cards out of it, or conceding in response to an attack so your opponent doesn't get damage triggers/life gain off lifelink, or in a League setting scooping to deny your opponent some points for something.

>>50683848
Right? I had a fair few foils in the deck that I brought to that shop, and because they refused to allow me to just play normally they got obliterated. Turns out when your random foil basics tap for 2 mana and your foil fetchland finds 2 lands and your foil draw spells draw twice as many cards, you become an unstoppable god.

>>50683866
Please keep /pol/ out of the thread. We're a happy general most of the time.

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>>50683654
>I know people who play with a rule that you can have 3 cards in your deck that don't have the right color identity
wat

>they have a houserule where you can use any legendary permanent as commander
WAT

>one dude had Urborg as commander once
STAHP

>and they play with 20 poison counters.
Eh, they're fucking pussies, but whatever I guess I can see that.

>>50683698
Pic related

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>>50682322
r8 me

>>50683698
>Lotus petal is nearly black lotus
>masterpieces are x3

>>50683902
Take your fucking lumps like a man, you shitter. I've had people do this, and everyone else just agreed that what would have happened if you hadn't scooped happens. Play the game, don't be a pussy.

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>>50683698
I am going to chose to believe you're lying for attention because if you're not this is the darkest fucking post I've ever seen on this board. Holy fuck.

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>>50683989
>tfw you scoop on some shitters FaF trigger
>everyone laughs at him and the next person untaps and avenges you by killing him

>>50683947
1) YOU SONUVABITCH!
2) But seriously, why AREN'T you playing Rhys
3) (n)tyrhard(n+2)me
4) I'd run Jazal Goldmane or Odric, Master Tactician but that's just me

>>50683642
usually by the time she dies i ramped or can ramp enough to play her again. battle hymn and brightstone ritual can bring her right back from a spot removal. hell ive traded her with another commander because i knew i could just blow up a few lands and prevent them from recasting thiers while be able to play mine since she only needs one color.

>>50683989
>Play the game, don't be a pussy.
>104.3a A player can concede the game at any time. A player who concedes leaves the game immediately. He or she loses the game.
>A player can concede the game at any time.
>at any time.
Sounds like they are playing the game, anon. Why won't you let them play by the rules?

>>50684039
to be honest, it's not a tokens deck so rhys would be mediocre. It's more of a gen wave/tooth and nail cop out deck with a big toolbox for chord and green sun's.

Is it bad that my only house rule is that you can use hybrid cards if at least one of their colors is in your color identity?

>>50683698
>Foil maelstrom wanderer
>Cascade x4
Fuck that'd be some spicy tech. So spicy, it's shit

>>50683989
So playing pretend and refusing to admit what empirically happened is not being a pussy? The game mechanics are very clear about this. You are not entitled to cards that used to exist in the game.

You can houserule all you want, but you're the one that feels entitled to something you're not supposed to get.

>>50682688
Metallurgic summons usually bring online iself in not much time in a dedicated deck.

>>50683914
>have a monoblack discard reanimator control deck
>the basic lands I use in that deck are all the foil swamps I've gotten from packs in all my years of magic

Unstoppable god indeed.

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>>50684049
>>50684084

>>50684184
>2+2=5

No it's 4 you double nigger

>ACSHUATYRALLY ur reddit. See how fat and bald you are?

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>>50684184
>gets called out for being wrong
>le reddit losers xxd
Must suck being developmentally disabled, huh, big guy?

>>50682688
Uhhh what the fuck that card is awesome

>>50683497
>BULLSHIT RAMP ROUTE
>fetch Valakut and something to copy it with Crop Rotation
>ramp Forests for a while
>play Boundless Realms for every Mountain in your deck

>TOKEN ROUTE
>make assloads of tokens because Gruul is Token City
>conspire the token spells
>Second Harvest
>Craterhoof for obscene damage

Wort is fun. Build it. A lot of people don't see it coming until it's far too late.

>>50684049
>>50684084
That's why it's called a douche scoop. It's perfectly legal in game rules but it's also unsportsmanlike

>>50683568
>Each round in which you have a net negative score earns a warning. Three warnings in a season (with warnings from week 9 rolling over to week 1 of the following season) earns a 1-week ban from the league. Then a 1-month ban. Then a 1-year ban. Fortunately, we have only ever had to ban someone once.

Holy shit.

>>50684288
Let's not forget
>HOLY SHIT THE FIREBALLS Route

>>50683668
>The 2 Eldrazi are banned because of the shuffle effect allowing any deck to eliminate the mill archetype completely by adding 1 card.
Really makes you think

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>>50684309
Autism incarnate.

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>>50684309
>We're so autistic that we can't just kick people out for being douchers

>>50684238
It's biggest weakness is that it can only enchant instant cards, but triggers off of sorceries. You'll want a large amount and good balance of both to make it worthwhile at all.

>if your commander doesnt have blue it's shit

Why is blue so OP?

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>>50684297
Countering my threaten effect is sportsmanlike.
Using a sac outlet to prevent your effect is sportsmanlike.
Tapping homeward path is sportsmanlike.
Using a fucking moltensteel dragon to neg myself to 0 in response is sportsmanlike.

Yet scooping up your cards is unsportsmanlike because the capability to lose the game at any time doesn't give you a big visual reminder, so your brain allows you to concoct a fantasy of how to win the game that doesn't work due to the rules of the game, and that is somehow somebody else's wrongdoing.

You wouldn't come up with a crackpot play to use another player's cards when they have moltensteel dragon and unspeakable symbol in play, why is it wrong for them to exercise the EXACT SAME FUNCTION?

If it makes these players feel any better, you can use the attached artwork to make a token and write on it "I may lose the game at will at any time for any reason," that way people's feelings won't get hurt when they attempt a play that might not work.

>>50683568
>Added an "infamy" tracker based loosely on another thread. Decks accrue infamy for certain cards or interactions. High infamy decks are forced into the same pod. In the event of small number of players, people with significantly lower infamy receive bonus points for playing against these people. Same goes for playing against anyone playing a Tier I or II general. Sure you killed the table turn 4, but everyone earned more points than you because of your spikey-ness

This thread is the gift that just keeps on giving.

>>50684441
Are you retarded?

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>>50684340
Hey, they need an additional card if they go for infinite mill, that's hard.
Or they have to mill thrice as much.

>>50684457
This isn't the shittiest idea in the world, but it's just a really convoluted way of having weight classes in EDH. Who the fuck wants to play kangee feather counter tribal against teferi stax?

>>50684509
>win X games with deck
>now you can no longer win the league at all with said deck, due to accrued infamy, even though you are playing in the same fashion
>forced to make a new deck unless you want to instantly lose every game when you start it

No, that system seems pants on head retarded

>>50684509
>>50684539
Having weight classes or trying to pair decks together by powerlevel is just fine, but all that other bullshit they tacked on just threw it in the gutter

can someone explain to me what lantern control is?

>>50684555
It's my favorite modern deck.

You use Lantern of Insight + Mill artifacts (Like Codex Shredder) to make sure your opponents draws fucking suck, while you hide behind an Ensnaring Bridge.

Lantern of Insight lets you look at their top card. If that top card is something scary (Say, artifact removal, a planeswalker or a lightning bolt), you just activate your mill artifact. Now there's a land on top? Sure, you can draw that.

Repeat until your opponent concedes out of frustration or runs out of cards

>>50684555
It's a control deck in Modern that uses Lantern of Insight combined with cards that mill the top card of your opponent's library to pretty much control what your opponent can and can't draw off the top of their deck.

>>50684594
>>50684611
That's some disgusting shit. I'd play it

>>50683515
>>50683497

I think you can do spell slinging and actually draw way more cards BUT, you have to spell sling with tokens

There are a lot of instants and sorceries that make a lot of tokens, great with conspire, and they turn collective unconscious into a much better draw spell than you will get in blue

I have a lot of experience building pretty much every colour combination, except izzet, and this is the last one I need for my 2 colour deck cycle. I can acquire just about anything if I put my mind to it, and my budget is under $200, though I have a large collection of surprising things.

How does one build izzet? Is artifact izzet a stupid idea to try and cobble together without a legendary artificer? What are the staple instant/sorceries I should keep my eye out for?

>>50684448
>taking your ball and going home
>while the ball is mid-air heading towards the goal
>sportsmanlike

Guys I sugjest a new paradigm.

So let's say you are collaborating with your friends on designing a moba/smash brothers/whatever game and you are making up what the characters do. You could theoretically make one character the best for no reason, but that would be boring.

"i'm technically allowed to set all of the stats of this character to maximum so he wins every time"
But that's retarded.

"Ok, so we need to have a power budget or point system or..."
There is no way you can formalize this shit to not be abusable. We are designing a game, have some basic concept of what gameplay you are trying to achieve instead of mary-sueing the fuck out and trying to make the character you relate to the most OP.

This mindset might make things easier. For example, mana crypt isn't technically banned, but it's aesthetically shitty unless you are trying to make an overcosted general a bit more interesting.

>>50684727
>there are rules for a game
>if something is legal in the rules of the game, then it's sportsmanlike
>making a rule that breaks a rule that already exists makes you inherently unsportsmanlike for not respecting "the spirit" of the format
>therefore, by making a rule about scooping, you yourself are in violation of the rules, and worthy of a warning with escalating bans

>>50684643
i tried marshmellow tutelage in standard a year ago. you turn all their creatures into useless fluffy marshmellows and win with sphinx ttutelage mill or swing out with starfield of nyx. it was very consistent for a budget deck and usually i would win the first round then the second would be very short since the first round ate up so much time.

>>50684509
Politics normally sorts that shit out but these mouthbreathers are probably a bit too socially awkward to try that.

Guys I sugjest a new pumadigm.

So let's say you are collaborating with your friends on designing a moba/smash brothers/whatever game and you are making up what the characters do. You could theoretically make one character the best for no reason, but that would be boring.

"i'm technically allowed to set all of the stats of this character to maximum so he wins every time"
But that's retarded.

"Ok, so we need to have a pumaer budget or point system or..."
There is no way you can formalize this shit to not be abusable. We are designing a game, have some basic concept of what gameplay you are trying to achieve instead of mary-sueing the fuck out and trying to make the character you relate to the most OP.

This mindset might make things easier. For example, mana puma isn't technically banned, but it's aesthetically shitty unless you are trying to make an overcosted general a bit more interesting

I want my EDH decks to always have a 101st card available to me at all time: A 0 mana Summary Dismissal with split second and "you lose the game" tacked on so I can be a spiteful shit whenever someone dares to attack me with something packing a sword.
s m h

>>50684727
>metaphor that doesn't work at all

Magic has each player bring their own ball. There is nothing special about the ball each player has, and none of them are essential to play the game. Furthermore, there are literally card effects in the game that deflect the ball from the goal mid-air, and those function exactly the same as conceding, as I thoroughly demonstrated in my post.

Conceding isn't taking the ball and going home any more than casting time stop. Hell, you don't even have to leave the table. Among adults with functional logic abilities, you can just say you're going to wait for the next game.

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>>50684768
>>if something is legal in the rules of the game, then it's sportsmanlike

>>50684749
>>50684790
No. The mere mention of trendy bullshit invalidates your opinion. This is how you balance it:
>nice game of durdle-based edh sets up with janky generals
>spike mchotshot walks up and slaps his t1 deck on the table with a wiggle of his eyebrow
>the group says sure, that's fine
>sets up a game
>before the first turn, the group informs spike mchotshot that he's already won, and the group will resume playing to see who comes in second
>decks that are extremely awful to play against automatically are met with this reaction, unless someone is feeling particularly masochistic

Problem solved for everyone.

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>>50684838
>completely ignoring the multiple posts that thoroughly explain why your attempt to compare ball games to magic makes zero sense.

>>50684838
Yes, because if it was unsportsmanlike and worthy of penalty, there would be already established rules defining what the activity is, and how the penalty works.

You're not very good at reading, are you?

>>50683568
the closest thing to a house-rule we have is that if we end up forgetting to keep track of commander damage for a few rounds we usually just tend to ignore it once we realize

>>50684889

Not that guy, but almost every sport of game has unwritten rules of sportsmanship

I've heard people argue that tactical scooping is good though, because it means if you play with the same people, and you're known for tactical scooping, people will think twice about using bribery on you, or attacking you with sword of feast and famine. Sort of a mutually assured destruction type thing

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>>50684870
>sportsmanship is exclusive to ball games

>>50684889
>as long as the rules don't penalize it, I can do whatever I want and it's still sportsmanlike

Holy fuck, it's like I'm stuck in a pit of autism

>>50684963
>Not that guy, but almost every sport of game has unwritten rules of sportsmanship
Not to be "that guy" but no they don't. Name one unwritten rule in a major north american sport.

They have vague rules that talk about interfering with the spirit of the game, or intentionally delaying play through disruption of rules in order secure an advantage, but those are very specific actions. They also have inter-subjective meta-enforcement of ethics by virtue of group dynamics, but that's something entirely different.

"Tactical Scooping" is fine as long as it's allowed by the rules. If someone scoops to fuck over a player, replay the last relevant action that would have been impacted by the person scooping. But, that has nothing to do with the rules, and as a group, you can determine if someone scooped to be a dick, and act accordingly. It still has nothing to do with the rules.

>>50684989
>I cannot read but I must post

Anyone here running a Vial Smasher deck? I've been looking at lists and tech and it seems pretty powerful, but only if you really get the right cards in the perfect order. Otherwise it turns into something slow and weak. This inconsistency is making me fear that it isn't viable in a competitive meta.

>>50684821
Among adults with functional logic abilities nearly no one would spite scoop because it stops you from getting in on the next game faster, since if you are waiting on a game you want an opponent to be in a position to swiftly end the game.

The only time it would be wise to do is if it ends the game faster, from a logical standpoint. I'm sure if you explained that you just want to play magic to your opponent(s) they would understand.

Does anyone have a problem with that?

>>50685190
No partner, particularly not a rakdos partner, is going to be viable in a competitive meta. No rakdos deck is viable, particularly one that involves hardcasting. It's just too janky to work.

That being said, I've wanted to pair Slias Ren with Vial Smasher for hilarious results. I think you could build a solid "75%" deck, but the second someone shows up with some mid tier control lock, you're in for a bad time.

>>50685247

Not hardcasting, but using high CMC spells with alternate casting costs (Madness, Suspend, Trap, Evoke, Avatar of Woe, Blasphemous Act). Especially with Phyresis or Grafted exoskeleton and/or damage doublers.

>>50685355
A lot of high cmc alternate casting cost cards are super janky to pull off. Avatar of Woe is the perfect example. Even in a mill deck, there are never 10 creatures in all graveyards, and when there are, Avatar of Woe just isn't going to cut it.

Like I said, partner him with silas, build a straight vanilla artifact ramp deck, and hope you luck into magical christmasland blightsteels.

>>50685213

Sounds fine. I personally think that the concept of the douche scoop is among the most asinine complaints magic players have invented, but there is nothing wrong with "fuck it, you got this one."

Not trying to sound too paternal or anything, but seeing nuance is a mark of maturity. Sometimes the tactical scoop is funnier, sometimes just seeing it happen is funnier. Ultimately both outcomes aren't all that different as long as you aren't doing something stupid like betting coke on a card game.

However, the moment somebody tries to moralize the situation and imagine that the act of picking up your cards is like stabbing a ball in a ball game, that's where I feel compelled to point out that they don't understand cards and they don't understand basic logic.

>>50684839
so you're basically denying someone the ability to play the game because their deck hurt your feelings?

>>50685570
Spike wins, we don't have to play with him, everything is right in God's glory.

So you're basically denying an easy win because you have hurt feelings as a result of not being able to play the way you want?

>>50685570
The philosophy of EDH seems a bit beyond you.

>>50685082

If you're gonna be an insufferable fucking shit eating douchebag at least be factually correct. "Unwritten rules are a major part of the mlb and the issue comes up every fucking year you ignorant piece of trash.

>>50683568
Well I would just play gold mode EDH and see how low I could get my points

>>50685684
Post a single example. Oh wait you can't think of one or you would have smugly posted it.

>>50685570

Absolutely if by "hurt your feelings," you meant to say "he was the kind of kid that didn't honestly have a damn clue why the kid with an anime-inspired team on pokemon yellow didn't want to do a link battle against his 6 mewtwos."

>>50685627
I didn't know the philosophy of EDH included being a bunch of pussies who couldn't talk to someone like a reasonable person, or at least fucking say "No" when you don't want to play with someone instead of being a cunt about it.

>>50685698

I did post an example, the mlb, to be more specific, if you flip your bat when you hit a home run, especially if you're a rookie and haven't "earned it", that's a dick move and you've broke a rule, bad sportsmanship

Also if you pitch inside the plate too often, and hit too many batters to be considered a reasonable accident that's unsportsmanlike and the other team will likely enact revenge by purposely hitting one of your teams batters

>>50685746
>It's considered being a pussy to spend 45+ min playing a match you won't enjoy because some autist uses EDH as a means to vent his life's failures by having the ability to win at something

The philosophy of EDH is the journey rather than the result. The person bringing tryhard deck cares about the result and he gets it. The people playing care about fun and they get it. Have you been excluded from games because you can"t understand social cues about when you need to power down your deck?

>>50685780
I'm not that anon, but thanks for the baseball knowledge. Your point on sportsmanship is spot-on.

As demonstrated at >>50684821 and>>50684448, the sportsmanship parallel makes zero sense in magic, but I see how it's a very important part of the sports that they manshipify.

>>50685698
Not same anon but here are a few off the top of my head. Strutting around the bases on a homerun is unsportsmanlike. Throwing the bat after a hit is unsportsmanlike. Purposefully hitting batters to walk them is unsportsmanlike. These are regularly occuring things in the MLB.

>>50685746
Have you ever played magic? Some people, such as yourself, are incapable of holding a reasonable conversation and are unable to understand social cues.

I didn't know that your personal philosophy involved being a whining pussy while, coincidentally, whining about people being whiny pussies.

>>50685780
>I have literally never watched sportball in my life
The "bat flip" is not against the rules, therefore it's perfectly allowed. It's against inter-subjective ethics as determined by group dynamics, which means people will be upset about it, and need to enforce their own personal understanding of conduct through group action. Someone bat flips on you with a fluke line drive home run in the 6th? You hit them with a pitch the next time they're at bat, and they take their base and/or the pitcher is ejected/benches are warned, as dictated by the rules.

Throwing inside is the exact same thing. It's perfectly legal to throw inside an infinite number of times. Doing so is not a good idea, but you could do it every time you wanted. Hitting people with pitches is not allowed, and by attempting to injure another player, group dynamics superseded the established rules, and actions are reciprocated, even if they're knowningly against the rules.

Come on anon, you could have at least brought the heat with a deflategate analogy or something.

>>50685853
I can't tell if you're intentionally being thick or not but the point of sportsmanship is to encourage being a decent person to your competition. Sportsmanship has no written rules which is it's deemed unsportsmanlike and not a penalty. If you disagree, then you're wrong. Whether douchescooping is unsportsmanlike or not is another discussion but sportsmanship are specifically about dickheaded things thay aren't against the rules but in poor form.

>>50685851
All of which have codified, enforcable punishments. There's nothing inherently wrong with strutting around the bases, and as such, "slights of respect' are mitigated through group dynamics. The same goes for "bat flips". You flip your bat, someone else will flip their bat. You hit someone with a pitch, someone's going to try to hit you with a pitch. Neither of those instances have anything to do with the rules and are more about a group's interpretation of "respect".

Purposefully hitting batters has codified punishments, which is the exact opposite of what you're trying to prove.

>>50685917
>Sportsmanship has no written rules which is it's deemed unsportsmanlike and not a penalty.
Objectively wrong. Basketball has technical fouls, baseball has ejections, football literally has "unsportsmanlike conduct" penalties. If you do something dickish that doesn't generate an advantage, it's mitigated through group behavior. If someone does something dickish that generates an advantage, there are always rules against it. Anything "dickish" that doesn't generate an advantage is completely arbitrary and subjective, while also having nothing to do with "sportsmanship".

>>50685853

>sportsmanship in any given game is not necessarily defined by the rules of the game
>hurrrrrr durrrrrr no if it was bad sportsmanship there would be a rule for it
>well actually in almost every major professional sport there are sportsmanship customs that aren't written down in the rules
>hurrrrrr fucking durrr name one
>the mlb
>no name an unwritten rule in the mlb
>k here's one: ....
>hurrr durrr it's not against the rules, it's perfectly allowed

Jesus Christ, it took long enough but I can leave this conversation knowing it's pointless because you're fucking retarded

>>50685917
An example of unsportsmanlike magic behavior might be something like
>putting stasis in a deck with no plan to use it effectively or expediently.

>flagrant kingmaking

>going infinite combo everything, putting one player you don't like at 1 life, then conceding.

It's certainly possible to be a dick in commander. It's even possible to concede in a way that makes you a dick IMO. The "tactical scoop" just isn't one of them.

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>>50683698

>>50686038
>this anon is so assblasted about an arbitrary he writes meta-fiction to make it look like he won an internet argument
The point of discussion is to discuss things. By calling me "fucking retarded" you're basically saying "my brain is incapable of logical thought, so here are my hurt feelings".

>>50686047

A lot of is intention

If you scoop because you don't like somebody and don't want them to win, that makes you a pussy little bitch

If you scoop because you don't want to establish that you can't be used for free sword of f&f triggers for future games, that's just strategic

>>50684332
Oh how could I? Apologies

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>>50686091
So, what you're saying, is that you have no understanding of what you're talking about, and instead make arbitrary rules to justify your stupid decisions? Come on anon, it's either wrong all the time, or wrong none of the time. Rationalization is the devil's secret sauce, dotcha know.

>>50686084
Not him, but do you have legit autism?

Also you have no valid arguments.

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>this thread

>>50686116
>two lines of text
>no substance
>"autism"
It's like I'm really on a bolivan folk music myspace page!

>>50686113

How is that arbitrary? If you make a game of magic into a way to vent your personal problems with another player, that's pretty lame and nobody wants to be a part of that.

That's obviously different than scooping for perceived strategic advantage.

As far as "justifying my stupid decisions", I'm not sure what you're referring to unless you mean that I'm the one swinging with sword of feats and famine? And you're saying it's stupid to swing on somebody who would die and plan to have the triggers go off?

If that's what you're saying I agree, that is stupid, it's not smart to rely on your opponents making a decision just for your benefit.

>>50686134
>Even less substance than my post.

You have no valid arguments.

>>50686091
It's also strategic because it discourages the attack if the SoFaF trigger is required to end the game that turn. In a way, being willing to lose could keep you alive.

Spite has a negative connotation, but it's also a political idea. It's similar to the reason we don't have nuclear war. If one country gets targeted by nukes, they are already fucked, so a retaliation is purely for spite. However, being willing to retaliate despite the futility of the situation makes nuclear strikes a non-viable way to win a war, because you will always be counter-fucked.

This, along with the time stop/moltensteel dragon argument indicate that almost everybody who complains about the tactical scoop either doesn't understand game concepts like M.A.D, or they had an idea to win the game but it didn't work because they forgot game rules and blamed somebody other than themselves.

>>50686172
It's arbitrary because any spiteful decision can be rationalized the second you allow some allowances.

>Oh, I didn't scoop because I hate Timmynnhoj, I scooped because he was going to get 300 life with his crazy keyword soup monster.
>Oh, I didn't scoop because I think player A smells, I scooped because I didn't want combat damage to trigger extra attack steps.
>Oh, I didn't scoop because I think you're a bunch of jackasses and I want to make you waste your removal, I scooped because player B chose to play a mycosynth lattice, and I fundamentally disagree with combos.

The point is, either you're always allowed to scoop without a reason, or you aren't. Rationalization is satan's salad dressing; a saucy vinaigrette capable of disarming even the most staunch paladin.

>>50682687
Unsatisfying? Winning in such a spectacularly unexpected way sounds like the izzet dream

>>50686214
>I have no thoughts but I must reply!
Explain yourself, or continue shitposting. It matters not, for your feeble mind can't even comprehend the grandeur of my intellectual fortitude, the veracity of my verbal vivisection, or the strength of my pontification. It's like a lobster talking to a grain of sand up in this bitch.

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Attempting to save this thread with the good P O S T E M B O Y S

Who's got new shit they want to talk about

>>50686215
See
>>50685213

If he was going to win the game by attacking you, scooping is not the right move if you enjoy playing magic.

If you don't enjoy playing magic, how did you end up playing that game in the first place?

>>50686281
You have no valid arguments.

>>50686127
The only thing that's missing is a nice discussion about proxies. :^)

Honestly this is one of the better generals I have seen but sometimes...

>>50686302
Wrong. You're allowed to scoop whenever, particularly if you enjoy playing magic. I quite often scoop when I have no answers in hand and my opponent is going to win in two or three turns.

>>50686245

>killing is wrong
>except in self defense
>no anon, rationalizations are the devils jizz

Fuck that word anyway, it's vague as fuck, it basically means "reasoning that people use who disagree with me"

Anyway none of your examples matter at all, dishonesty makes you a douchebag, especially dishonesty about an accusation of douchebaggery

It's not about setting out rules that can be enforced against the wishes of another person, it's about setting out expectations that you expect people to hold themselves to

>>50686337
There is a difference between your example and mine, please find it yourself. It is not particularly hard to do, and I believe in you.

>>50686370
Killing is always wrong. You go to jail for killing someone who isn't going to kill you, and even still, you will often be charged for killing someone, even if it was totally justified.

You can't determine honesty earnestly or objectively, which mean you need black and white rules, because you need to take people's rationalization at face value.

It's not about setting expectations of what people can expect from you, because it's always possible to maliciously decieve them, particularly in a multiplayer game where that might be advantageous. It's about establishing transparent, mutually applicable rules that dictate the context for action. Just because player C is incredibly butthurt about my scoop doesn't inherently justify or condemn the action, all it say is that player C is mad about their plan being foiled.

>>50686385
There's no difference anon, use critical thinking. I believe you can do it! If you try really hard, you'll see that scooping is just fine, which is why it's codified into the rules, and anything else is just frivolous asswank.

>>50686370
I'm not sure who is avin a giggle and being satirical at this point.

>>50686302
There are reasons. When gitaxian probe was legal, I was on a mulligan to five and my opponent probes me turn 1. Paradoxically, it was my love of playing magic and winning magic that influenced me to deliberately lose that one round.

Choosing to lose deliberately is actually a big dilemma in some game theory scenarios. In "the ultimatum game" a player makes much less money if they refuse to lose, but they stand a chance of getting nothing if they irrationally overvalue their position.

There are some very good reasons to lose sometimes. These are just a few examples.

>>50686436
>There's no difference anon, use critical thinking. I believe you can do it! If you try really hard, you'll see that scooping is just fine, which is why it's codified into the rules, and anything else is just frivolous asswank.

Holy shit, do you have downs? My argument has been that if you are going to die, it's totally a good idea to scoop if it ends the game faster. You literally didn't read anything because you assumed everyone was against you because you are an asshat.

I have only said it's not a good idea to scoop when you are going to die if doing so drags out the game, since then you play less magic. Can you tell me why playing less magic is a more desirable outcome to playing more magic?

>>50683668
>Loyal Retainers

Super Weenie Hut Jr's-tier

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Before anything, this deck is shit I know this. My group mainly 1 faggot who refuses to buy cards or just print out fakes thinks that some of our decks are too strong so we agreed on using the precons with minimal editing. Only 11 something cards were removed from the original list but I wanted to get more opinions on hwi to casualize it further

>>50686543
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ogres-have-lairs-not-layers/

Forgot list

>>50686530
>Can you tell me why playing less magic is a more desirable outcome to playing more magic?
Oh my sweet cock you're dense, do you have trisomy 21? My argument has been you're allowed to scoop regardless of context and the only time you're not allowed to scoop is literally never because it's fine. You figuratively didn't comprehend anything because you assumed everyone is dumb, but you, because you're an asshat.

I have only said it's a good idea to scoop whenever you want, because if you scoop whenever you want, then you can play more magic. Can you tell me why playing magic is more or less desirable than anything else regardless of context? I don't think you can, I don't think anyone can. As long as it's allowed in the rules, you're allowed to do it regardless of context, particularly when half of magic involves pretending things are happening with literal physical impact by the action of scooping, you insipid mongoloid.

>>50686436

>Killing in self defense is always wrong

I don't think a paladin would agree with that

>you can't determine honesty objectively
Did you not read my post? That's not the point

If you think somebody is being a douchebag, and they lie about not being a douchebag, what have they gained?

>just because player c is butt hurt doesn't inherently condemn the action

Sweet strawman. I already explained what condemns the action, and that is not it

>>50686249
>Winning in such a spectacularly unexpected way sounds like the izzet dream

I suppose I could see it that way. It was just a boring game for me because I couldn't DO anything except cast Niv and Jace's Archivist for most of the game. I was bored and sure I was going to lose while being bored and then I won and it was hard to get excited.

>>50686485
Probe has never been banned in edh so I am guessing you are referring to a 1v1 format? In which case your argument is completely inapplicable, since when you lose you may immediately start another game with your opponent. If you are playing EDH with 3 of your friends and you "spite scoop" to deny someone a win, then you don't get to play magic with them until they finish that game, which is something that could now take a while.

>>50686603
Please tell me how to play magic with no opponents.

>>50686628
>I don't think a paladin would agree with that
I don't think that's relevant to anything.

>Did you not read my post? That's not the point
Did you read my post, you missed the entire point and sharpshootered everything you could argue with.

>If you think somebody is being a douchebag, and they lie about not being a douchebag, what have they gained?
They won the game due to adventageous conduct that isn't explicitly against the rules, but is implicitly frowned upon? Can you read at all?

>Sweet strawman. I already explained what condemns the action, and that is not it
Sweet explanation, it was so deft it was imperceptible.

It's like you have a fetish for being humiliated on the internet or something.

>>50686652
Optimally. You win every time, and even when you lose, you still win.

>>50686672
Kek, seems like the right thing to do then.

Why not just play by yourself and scoop as often as you like, doesn't seem right to drag other people into such a perfect set-up.

>>50685190
Fireballs are sex with Vial Smasher, Red Sun's Zenith and Banefire are favorites. Bond of Agony and Kaervek's Purge are also workable.
Mind Twist is nice. Sorin's Vengeance works.

>>50686636
The idea is that if they know I'm not completely averse to scooping, they will have to form a plan that does not depend on me living.

It's similar, but not exactly the same as the nuclear deterrent paradox. If you don't want to be nuked, you have to be willing to nuke, which means total annihilation. The sum of these incentives is *no* annihilation at all.

Coming back to magic, being willing to scoop some amount of games, even if it's rarely, may mean I don't have to scoop in the first place.

Back to your scenario, it's honestly not a bad way to do it and it depends on the game for me. If the threat of me scooping prevents another player from winning for a turn, that's a turn I get to play more magic. It's a nuanced decision and it's ultimately a matter of what you feel like doing. Sometimes I would rather just let the game start over.

>>50686718
>Why not just play by yourself and scoop as often as you like, doesn't seem right to drag other people into such a perfect set-up.
And that's the dilemma. How would I enlighten others to the masturbatory joy of scooping against yourself an infinite number of times if I never scooped in their games?

By scooping, you're inter-subjectively communicating a subjective joy, which happens to be the greatest of all earthly pleasures.

>>50686663

>I don't think that's relevant to anything

So literal. You were the one who brought up Paladins and Devils did you not? I was just saying that history and common sense is not on your side if your claim is that killing in self defense is wrong

>you sharpshooters everything you could argue with

Most of your post isn't relevant to what I was saying. I agree that clear and unambiguous RULES are important, but whether somebody is being unsportsmanlike or a douchebag is not a rules question. This is not a matter of what is legally allowed, it's a matter of what is socially acceptable

>they won the game due to.....
??? I thought we were talking about tactical scooping here. Unless you're talking about the "game" of booty bothering somebody you dislike

I already explained that I don't want people to make edh night about their personal problem with another player outside the game. scooping to spite a player is just one way that issue could come up, another way would be somebody just making it their mission in multiplayer to make one player lose, with no regard for their own chances of victory. If somebody did that because of a personal problem outside the game, that's lame and I wouldn't want to play with that person anymore

You're problem is you're trying to turn this into a codified a rules situation, when I'm talking about human interaction

Basandra or Tymaret? I cant decide

Hey /tg/, how can I improve this?

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/tana-i-hate-everything-and-i-punch-people-edh/

Deck seems pretty easy to trip, no? It's so reliant on Tana.

>>50686786
>So literal. You were the one who brought up Paladins and Devils did you not? I was just saying that history and common sense is not on your side if your claim is that killing in self defense is wrong
So what you're saying is that you were being facetious, but didn't do it very well and needed to back peddle, right? Keep moving those goal posts.

>Most of your post isn't relevant to what I was saying. I agree that clear and unambiguous RULES are important, but whether somebody is being unsportsmanlike or a douchebag is not a rules question. This is not a matter of what is legally allowed, it's a matter of what is socially acceptable
But most of your post isn't relevant to what I was saying. I agree that clear and unambigous RULES are important, which means if someone's unsportsmanlike conduct violantes a rule, they should be punished, and if it doesn't, it literally has nothing to do with anything. This is a matter of what's legally allowed because laws also dictate what's socially acceptable, you scrub dumpster.

>I already explained that..
That's a lot of words to say you care more about hurt feelings and meta-gaming than rules. If it's allowed in the rules, then it's not an issue because it's allowed in the rules. If it's also dickish, as you said, human interaction will sort things out, so therefore it's a nonissue as long as extremely objectionable conduct is in the rules, like it is.

>You're problem is you're trying to turn this into a codified a rules situation, when I'm talking about human interaction
"You're" problem is that "your" trying to turn this into a situation talking about human interaction, whereas I'm using the codified rules to dictate the context for human interaction, so you can play magic and not worry about meta-fuckery and satanic rationalizations, like god intended.

>>50686764
Ahhh, I see your angle, I just don't subscribe to your logic. If I was the guy that was going to go off, and you were likely to scoop to stop me, I would still do it anyway since the goal of the game is kill off the other players anyway, it's always win-win for me.

Not everyone may think the same way though, and you may "psyche them out" and I can respect that.

>>50683654
most retarded house rule I've experienced was that you cannot be killed without taking at least one point of combat damage

>try playing $50 purphoros deck
>lethal the table by turn 6 or 7 because purphoros is stupid as hell
>they all set their life to 1 and just keep playing
>only then am I informed of the house rule
>end game, pack up, pretend to get a text message and tell them I have to leave
>never return

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How is Uril legal in french commander?

I run a completely french-legal Uril list that I didn't realize was french legal. This is just silly, I"m going to take it to a french tournament and make them really regret that decision.

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>>50686793
They're both pretty awful commanders. I'd say Tymaret because

1) At least it's not RW. I know it's a meme that RW is bad, but... It's pretty bad

2) THE FUCKING MURDER KING

Post results. I have a Tymaret that I pulled in a draft and I just cant bring myself to even brew him. He's... just so awful. Not even a good contender for an inclusion in the 99, much less a commander.

>>50686633
When you put it that way I see you point better. Having fun throughout the entirety of a game is probably more important than a brief moment of winning at the end.

I guess the best thing to do in that situation is just take a look at what was preventing you from casting/doing shit and try to find a way to fix that. Good luck izzet bro

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Eye of the storm. Do you actually need to use storm cards or can i just chain together cheap instants and sorceries to out value and cascade with yidris?

>>50686936
because yisan and marath are better in french. get ready to get combo'd on T3-4 while you're trying to ramp your glorified slipery bogle out

>>50686936
>What are counterspells?
>What are sac effects?
>What's a boardwipe

I'm not saying he's not strong as fuck, but Uril decks are like Kaalia decks. You know exactly what they're gonna do. Shit, they aren't even as dangerous as Kaalia.

>>50682687
Oh yeah.
>playing now decommissioned Sharuum deck
>read: WUB my favorite artifacts
>more like a toybox than a real deck
>game's moving along, but I'm not getting much done
>the RB player drops Possibility Storm
>I enjoy the shenanigans of almost my entire deck being artifacts for a bit
>ha ha ha
>hee hee hee
>ho ho ho
>next thing I know I have Ethersworn Canonist
>oh
>wait
>OH
And then I just kind of won.

>>50686861

So you're sticking by your claim that killing in self defense is wrong? And your reasoning is that we can't have any ambiguity in our claim that killing is wrong?

>laws also dictate what's socially acceptable

There's a lot of stuff that's not illegal but isn't socially acceptable

>human interaction will sort things out

I'm so confused, this is what I'm talking about, if people are dickish, they will make people not want to play with them. That's all I'm saying and it sounds like you agree, so I think we're done here. Next time maybe don't sperg out so hard about "muh rules"

>>50686980
Both of which are banned. What's going to wombo me on t3/t4? Go on, I'm interested. I'm actually going to play with these fucks, and if they can t3/t4 me, I'm going to have a bad time.

>>50686987
Counterspells are a thing I might have to worry about a bit more, which is why I pack a shitload of anti-counter tech. Kaalia is a poor deckbuilder's trap filled with dead draws. Uril is a combo deck slapped in aggro colours built like an izzet deck, but all enchantment-y.

A properly built Uril deck can answer just about anything 1v1, but in multiplayer, that shit is so bad I only bring it out ironically.

>>50687033
wait wut they banned yisan and marath? I stopped playing french a long time ago and don't keep trade of the ban list anymore

>>50687019
No, my reasoning is that killing is wrong, therefore the self-defense errata matters very little.

>There's a lot of stuff that's not illegal but isn't socially acceptable
Irrelevant generalization.

>I'm so confused, this is what I'm talking about, if people are dickish, they will make people not want to play with them. That's all I'm saying and it sounds like you agree, so I think we're done here. Next time maybe don't sperg out so hard about "muh rules"
So, what you're saying, is that you like arguing about nothing, got your ass clapped by my cockhammer, and are now acting like a pretentious bitch? Fuck off to /pol/ you colour-shifted loving degenerate with the aptitude of a pineapple.

>>50686953
im thinking of "i steal your shit and sacrifice it for my gain" tribal

>>50687063

How could the self defense "errata" matter very little? It's the difference between life in prison and no punishment at all

How is it irrelevant that there are many counterexamples to your claim that laws determine what is socially acceptable

>>50683668
So basically no combo? I can understand Food Chain, Grind Stone and DN+Palinchron but NO TUTORS!?

They should just ban anyone from playing Blue if they are going to be that butthurt.

>>50687042
Yisan is banned as commander, Marath is on the watchlist

>>50686958
>Having fun throughout the entirety of a game is probably more important than a brief moment of winning at the end.

Yeah, that's one of my favorite things about EDH. In the best games you have back and forth swings, big hits and near misses, moments of "Welcome to your end!" followed up by "WHY WON'T YOU JUST DIE?"

It can actually be exciting! This was not.

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>>50683947
Feldon is cool. Use him in Brion.
Played Karametra and enjoyed her.

>>50686299
What's the advantage of Red over Green for Hatebears? Just curious.

>>50687113
Yeah, I can see that being interesting. It's just that 1R seems like such a comparatively high cost for a sack outlet and 2 damage that you can't even use on creatures is not a good payout. Like, he feels like a rejected "Rakdos Guildmage" design. He'd be a disappointment as an uncommon.

>>50687294
Extra combat phases, mainly. And mono-R Grenzo and Akki Underminer

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Quick Interaction Question How Does Eye of the Storm and Possibility Storm Interact does Eye catch the spell first or does possibility storm kick of then if its a instant or sorcery then it exiles under eye? (Threw both those in the same izzet chaos deck and didnt realize the interaction)

>>50684232

>4u

>>50687414

If you have cards exiled with Eye of the Storm, you want Possibility to resolve first so you get 2 triggers of Eye.

Or you could just set shit up and experiment it yourself

>work team decides to do secret santa
>we're using a system that lets you make a wishlist
>can't think of any vidya I want around $25, since that's the target price
What are some EDH staples worth around that much I could put on my list?

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>I keep trying to start decks just because I have one or two cards or synergies that are really cool/clever, but don't fit into any existing decks
>I buy cards to support new ideas, but they always feel bland when I'm not playing that specific card or combo
>They lose horribly and I hardly play the game compared to my more competitive, but less original decks
>Now I have some new cards that I really want to play but don't fit into any of my decks
>The cycle continues

I swear, how many decks I have started just because I want Drana + Bitterblossom + Oona's Vanguard?

>>50687581
Craterfoot

>>50687613
Well, don't give up when your cobbled together shit loses two or three times.
Need to keep playing, keep identifying weaknesses, and patching them - as flavor/theme/etc allow.
It can take a while and not all decks can be gold, but you could always aim for, say, silver.

>>50687724

But another part of me is like:
>"Maybe I can trade all this stuff and get something crazy good for my already good decks and just have maybe 5 really strong decks"

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Any secret tech for this one?

>>50684989
I'm still playing Blue.

>>50687294
Is vial smasher plus ludvic also running academy+mindslaver lock?

I need some spicy tech for BUG Sidisi

>>50687857
There's one guy at my LGS who has 22 motherfucking commander decks, and they're all pretty solid. He brings them in a toolbox he fit with custom bins to hold them all.
From what I've gathered, dude has an entire room devoted entirely to MTG. Like, bookcases filled with binders filled with cards. Shelves stocked full of boxes full of bulk rares and trash.

Either you end up like him, or you keep your ADHD in check.

>>50687946
Intimidation is a high mana cost but works very well. Dauthi Embrace is in the same vein and is fantastic since fucking no one runs Shadow.

Ebonblade Reaper is also fun.

>>50683497
You're being too fair. I'd do a token theme with a splash of "I win the game if this resolves...and you have to counter it twice!!" kind of effects. Tooth and Nail, Chord of Calling, Green Sun's Zenith, all the usual bullshit, for either a Kiki-conscripts kill or a hasty Avenger-Craterhoof combo. And don't underestimate the small-time token producers. T2 Krenkos Command into T3 Copied farseek or something is no small game (in fair playgroups)

>>50688384
I like the dauthis embrace card thank you

>>50687946
her penis :^)

>>50688025
Why wouldn't it? :^)

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>>50687946
Just meme infinite combos
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/alesha-combocontrol-competitive/

What are some good nonartifact creatures for breya?

>>50689161

Riddlesmith
Quicksmith genius
Chief engineer
Trinket mage
Eldrazi displacer
Goblin welder
Thopter engineer
Vedalken archmage

>>50689161
Chief engineer, eldrazi displacer, and pia and kiran nalaar are all pretty alright.

>>50686299
I got an LED for my Kozilek, Great Distortion deck. I never thought I would own one, but I was able to trade for it from a really cool dude.

Ever since I started playing Magic I have always wanted to make a completely colorless deck loaded with utility lands. I was able to slowly accrue the cards for it over the years, and I completed it earlier this year.

The deck is a blast. It's very powerful due to the huge ammount of virtual card advantage Kozilek can net you during deck construction and It has really interesting synergies and interactions. I love playing it and most people enjoy playing against it.

EDH is great as a deckbuilding idea, but everything else about the format just fucking sucks. The players, the banlists, the stupid ideas about the "spirit of the format" that the people have, all fucking terrible.

I'm just glad that my friends aren't retards and that the shop I go to doesn't try to implement one of those stupid point lists.

>>50689334
I would love to play against a good colorless, most of the ones I see are just artifact jank thrown together. They built the deck because they liked the idea of a colorless deck but it has no theme or gameplan.

>>50687294
I spit out my dinner when I saw Ludevic + Vial Smasher.

That's pretty much my deck, but with more stuff and a lower curve commander.

anything i should cut or add? the main theme is landfall and i know i need to add misty rainforest which i might swap for terrain generator.

what do you guys think?
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/gwu-landfall-edh/

pic not related

>>50689724
Yeah, I've had the same experience. Most of the decks I've seen fall for the same pitfalls of trying to jam in every eldrazi known to man with no support, or just a large pile of "did you know that this artifact was printed?" cards.

I think that were most players go wrong in the deck building process for colorless decks can be traced back to two main concepts. The first is that they realize that the funds needed to make a good colorless deck are just astronomically higher than making a similar powerlevel colored deck, so they end up just half-assing and it turns out shitty. The second is that those builders who do commit to the idea often fail to realize that a colorless EDH deck doesn't function in they way they originally drafted it up. this leads to a force-fitting of concepts and cards that severly hurts the overall design. like you said, they just lack theme or gameplan.

It took me a while to tune my deck and figure out how to justify the huge weaknesses colorless gives you compared to its strengths. While it's not perfect (still haven't shelled out for a good crucible of worlds package yet), I am very pleased with how it turned out.

>>50687294
Post list for the VialSmasher + Ludevic deck?
I've been thinking of making a super janky chaos/control and this seems right up my alley.

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>>50689875
>http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/gwu-landfall-edh/
I think that with as much land thinning and fetching you are doing, you might want to look into some more utility lands. Alchemist's refuge comes to mind. Keep in mind that with the amount of lands you will be grabbing from your deck, you will be able to run a higher percentage of utility lands overall than most 3 color decks would be comfortable with. Do some dry runs and find a sweet spot, but I am sure you can squeeze a good number more in.

As odd as it might seem, I think you should consider a trinket mage for your deck. Both amulet and expedition map are huge for your deck, and having a way to reliably search them out (both of them, since you can blink the mage with roon), it can really help your early game. speaking of early game, just because you are a land deck doesn't mean you can skimp on a sol ring. shit's too good to not include.

Oh yeah, and pic related. card is sweet.

>>50690123
this is a deck ive had for awhile and ive been away from /edhg/ for a solid couple months now.

only reason why i didnt want sol ring is cause i wanted a deck that was legal in both dual commander and regular commander. the deck does a solid amount of work and i love it to death, i like the idea of realms uncharted for the deck it seems like it would do amazing in it. trinket mage is a good idea, but i dont like the idea of only have 2-3 options for the one cards search potential if that makes sense.
what other utility lands do you suggest?
should i cut a few of the basics in place of it?

rate my nekusar wheelin and dealin deck /edh/. first time homebrewin one and i need some advice.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/05-09-16-nekusar-edh/

>>50690196
I'm not the one who first suggested Trinket Mage, but I think it's worth running in your list, especially if you add the artifact lands in. Expedition Map and Amulet of Vigor are both super good in your deck.

I would also consider Brainstorm because you have a lot of shuffle effects and a few that even care about the top card of your library.

Vesuva and Minamo, School at Water's Edge would both be great, if you can afford them.

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>>50690219

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>>50686299

Holy Fuck do I love late night edh general.

Also, jori-en is an underrated artifact commander. Half my deck cantrips, the other half is artifacts, planeswalkers, and mld jank. That stupid fish treasure hunter drew me like 10 cards. Any spicy tech I should know about?

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OK edhg, i think i finally found the "best foil:awful card" ratio.

>>50690252
ill test it out and see then if others are suggesting it in the deck
>Minamo, School at Water's Edge
>tcgplayer $18.06
>local card shop $28.00

>vesuva
>tcgplayer $14.40
>local card shop $21.00

i think ill pass, dont got the money right now even though i was just saying i need to add misty rainforest to the deck. but even then i cant justify spending $40 on cardboard at this point in my life. brainstorm for a mana? cause i feel with as much mana search and potential i have i feel i could cut 1 or 2 from the deck

>>50690196
For some utility lands, I would reccomend Halimar Depths, New Benalia, cephalid coliseum, Deserted Temple, Gavony Township, Geier Reach Sanitarium, Kor Haven, Mistveil Plains, Mirror Pool, Mystifying Maze/Maze of Ith, Oran-Rief the Vastwood (great with roon), Thespians stage, Tolaria West, Wind Canyons, Krosan Verge, Yavimaya Hollow, Homeward path, and the manlands in your colors. You can also run some of your artifact lands if you want to get a little more oomph out of that trinket mage.

Obviously you wont have room for all of these, so look them over and see which of the effects you value. As for which lands to cut, I would say that you can trim down a bit on your basics and perhaps a few of your duals for things like the manlands. just make sure that you keep your color production percentages close to what they were (assuming that that was working well for you, of course).

>>50690219
>http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/05-09-16-nekusar-edh/
Barbed shocker is secret nekusar tech for me. Nothing like killing some one with a barbed shocker. Gets people pissed.

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>>50690300
noice

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>>50690295
It's not super spicey, but a lot of player forget that it exists. rock solid card.

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>>50690295
Mystic remora is criminally underplayed. Run kraum in the 99 to draw even more, and I'd run nin in there to, remember, always have her shoot herself for as much as possible to draw a shitload.
Also pic related

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>>50690495
>>50690523
Transrelimind

>>50690495
I need to stick this in my Niv-Mizzet deck, just for the flexibility it allows.

>>50682488
>>50683178
>>50683641
if you do not want to use the discord, then don't. it's intended for stuff like finding groups for xmage or getting immediate deck critique and stuff like that. it was never meant to replace the general.

>but it's not anonymous

it's a public group so you can still be anonymous. just join with a new throwaway name every time.

>>50682322
Is there anywhere to discuss Duel Commander? It has gotten really popular at my LGS since Standard and Modern are ded, but MTGSalvation is shit as always.

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No one cares. But here we go, anyways.

I need to get updated decklists up on TappedOut.

>>50686971
What?

>>50683568
FFS.
Only house rules I've ever played under were:
>Championship Deck and Collectors Edition cards are legal so long as you use completely opaque sleeves.
Have duals, don't care.
>BoP effects generate mana of any color even if not in your commander's color identity
Now an official rule
>Nephilim are legendary
An useless try at power-gaming from a group of dumb Johnnies. Ended up beating them with Teysa anyway because the nephilim are shit and brewing 4C without a really solid theme withers the decks' effectiveness. Yore-Tiller was the only one that stood as a threat.

>>50687567
>>50687414
Eye must resolve first, so the spell gets exiled with Eye, you're gonna get Storm trigger anyway. If Storm trigger resolves first, the spell you cast first can't be exiled with eye, since it's not on a stack anymore, but in your library.

>>50682322
more like


Avatar of Discard

amirite

>>50682461
>complaining about cheap cards
nigga I need like 3 mox diamonds for my commander decks.

>>50689161
Marionette Master, Padeem, Treasure Mage

>>50691210
no you dont

>>50682488
every fucking forum i read now has a discord sideshow

fuck discord to death

It's 4 in the morning and I wanted to make a deck that used Gitrog, Omnath 2, and Titania, how badly did I do

tappedout.net/mtg-decks/jund-lands-edh-2/

I have no clue what the fuck I'm doing with this deck. First time making a commander deck. Need help with the land base for starters. I made it glacially slow in return to be retard proof for being mana fucked.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/what-the-fuck-am-i-doing-3/

>>50687033

http://mtgtop8.com/format?f=EDH

Not much Uril there. It's almost as if he's not great in French.

>>50689704
t. Spike

>>50690844
>you can still be anonymous
>but everyone else won't be

Stick with the "just don't use it" argument.

>>50691210
>tfw mox diamond, grove of the burnwillows and cavern of souls were all around 20€ - 30€ three years ago
>tfw I was an idiot and didn't buy any of them

I feel regret.

>T1 Sol Ring, Izzet Signet
>T2 Panharmonicon
>T3 Reckless Fireweaver, Breya, everybody take 10 please
I served a lot of Haterade that day.

>>50691883
I'm so glad I got my Crucibles while they were still reasonable. Not as fortunate as my buddy though, who got himself like three playsets of City of Traitors while it was still at like 20 bucks.

So I have an idea for a new format and I want to see how you guys feel about it since it plays sort of like EDH in terms of politics.

It's a premade cube-esque game where whoever goes first picks 10 basic land out of 10 of each (game comes with 50 total) to make a deck, then draws an opening hand of 2, drawing once per turn as usual.

For cards to play, there's a big centre deck which has 6 cards revealed from it at any time. Plays can cast anything from the middle with the usual casting restriction, and as a card is cast, it's replaced as a state based action.

The big centre deck will ideally contain lots of cards that are either gold or have double colour costs to prevent people from just picking up 2 of each land type and playing all of the good stuff. It'll also contain no cards that refer to a player's hand. No draw spells, no discard spells, nothing that bounces cards to hand. Bounce spells are just too huge of a tempo gain when you're not even expending cards from your hand to play them. There'll also be nothing that refers to the graveyard for the purpose of making the game go faster. And no one wants to see Gurmag Angler for B.

Players also have access to an activated ability which says, "Pay {2}: Choose target revealed card in the centre. Put that card into the graveyard." to 1) prevent the board becoming clogged with shit, and 2) introduce another political element to the game (in this guy's end step I'll mill all of the cards that the next guy could play, even though it'll cost me all of my mana to do it).

Life total is 20, and the biggie here is you can only attack the player to your left. Likewise, only the guy to your right can attack you.

What do you think? It's a combination of EDH politics, cube drafting, and Ascension.

Should just rename this Autism General

>>50692092
Tl;Dr it's shit

>>50691912
>enemy counters a tragic arrogance that was about to blow out my displacer thoptersword and transmuter
>everyone gets mad when i combo out the next turn with my unfucked up boardstate

>TFW you own 90 cards of your deck, but the last 10 cost twice as much as the 90 before it.
>So Even though you have 90% of the deck done you still have to wait till the Christmas bonus to snag the full build...

Goodness, I just cant wait to be done with this...

>>50692932
Hey, at least you're only waiting a couple weeks to finish it off. I know some people who have deck ideas they're sitting on until Taxmas.

>>50693091
I'm also waiting on the Magical Christmas Cash Infusion to finish out my artifacts deck. Buying gifts for a big family is not cheap

>>50693196
I really need to bite the bullet and order some stuff for the decks I'm building. I keep getting bitten by the Inspiration Bug and brewing up new lists when I still have like 6 to test.

>>50693218
I do too. Luckily the artifacts deck is really the only expensive one, the other stuff is goofy fun jank where I have a good amount of the pieces lying around already. My only thing is that a few parts for the goofball decks are in a fairly competitive deck I bust out for the cutthroat games (Ghave), and I don't want to drop more cash for cards I already own copies of. I do think my group would be OK with writing "[CARD NAME]" on an Island though, so long as I own the card already

>>50690278
I was thinking of building Arjun, and this looks like it would be spicy.

>>50693244
Personally I've never had a single problem with "I own this card, but it's in another deck" proxies.

>>50692381
Modern general is at least marginally worse.

>>50691338
I'm fine with Discord as a concept, but there's things that it makes no sense to have a Discord channel for.

>>50693362
Care to give some examples, just curious

Sweet Christ why is Metalworker allowed, this card is fucking insane

>>50693383
From all the things they could've unban that was the most retarded. Hasty Blightsteels turn 3 are too much.

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If I add Ajani Steadfast to my Gwafa (UW) deck I will have nine Planeswalkers.
That should make The Chain Veil worthwhile right?
Since my Commander has a tap ability I do have Unbender Time and Thousand Year Elixer to untap things could also include an Apetho Alchemist for further untapping.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/planeswalkers-profiting-from-gwafas-pillowfort/

>>50693382
I mean... this?

Discord channels are good for a place where having a chatroom-style discussion "makes sense". An example would be class-specific Discord channels for WoW, where you can have extended conversations with other people about that class, theorycrafting, yadda yadda.

An EDH Discord channel might not be a bad idea either, but a 4chan EDH Discord channel is a terrible idea.

>>50693383
I use it in sen triplets artifact control, lots of fun.

>>50693401
I'd say so yeah.

>>50693393
I mean, it's not cheap but it's certainly not inaccessibly expensive, I wonder if that has anything to do with it

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Out of the choices below, which would you build:
Oona
Mirko Vosk
Pia and Kiran
Kami of the Crescent Ass
Lavinia
King Macar
Jareth
Fumiko
Adriana
Tymaret
Yasova
Basandra
Varolz
Reya
Tasigur
Sidisi, Brood Tyrant

>>50693708
Oona

I also just want Oona cause the card is pretty

>>50693708
Probably Yasova. A lot of the other ones are really boring choices or monocolor.

>>50693708
Kami of the crescent cock

Because I have, and ive been preaching turbostasis here for a while

>>50693753
Mind sharing a decklist?
I put some Stax effects like Stasis and the orbs in my memnarch deck.

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Hey, can I get some feedback/suggestions for my UG Ezuri deck?

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/04-12-15-OFg-newzuri/

>>50693708
I'm actually looking to build a Varolz once I'm done with my current two projects. It's gonna be my first Voltron build.

Is there a way to build UW that isnt just prison or control?

>>50693890
I'm a big fan of Fable of Wolf and Owl for Ezuri because it turns almost all your noncreature spells into Ezuri-enablers, and can make your creature spells grow your experience ridiculously fast.

>>50693890
No Kalonian Hydra / 10

>>50693913
Devil's Advocate here because I cut Fable of Wolf and Owl.

I think its too slow and is only ever giving you two XP procs.

If I am spending 5+ mana in Newzuri it is either to cast a good utility creature or a wincon.

The Fable needs other spells after it is cast to be relevant so if I have no other play on turn 6 with 6 mana up it isn't worth playing because it won't give me any value until next turn.

>>50693976
I guess it depends on how you're building it. If you're building it to win on turn 5 then obviously Fable is a bad choice because it does nothing the turn it comes down and you're wanting to win right away, but in a game that you expect to go a little longer it's not a bad idea to 'use' your turn 5/6 play to kick things into turbodrive.

>>50693976
>No Kalonian Hydra
I cut it for mycoloth

what are some esper secret tech for making people discard and mill or pay life?

There a whisper of the tomb card (named something similar) that makes people pay 3 life to reveal creatures or discard them.

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>>50694013
You mean this?

>>50694031
yeah yeah


any other spicy tech cards?

>>50694013
That 5 mana demon, though it is either you draw or they lose life or they sac a critter.

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>>50694041
There's this if you want attrition-y type of stuff.

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>>50694013
Prepare to be ganged up on and quickly hated out.

>>50694084
oh shit that art is dope.

>>50694072
I like this too

good shit guys

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>>50694013
Perfect card for what you want, but I nearly fell off the chair when I saw the price. Is this thing actually played in Legacy or what?

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Anyone have a list for bae?

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>>50694109
I don't think so, it's one of those cards that's just expensive because it's old.

Like this one.

>>50693899
Yes actually make it artifact ramp into fatties with a splash of control to make up for your terrible ability to ramp.

>>50692932
Wait until you start playtesting and need to start replacing those cards. It never ends anon.

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>>50694109
I was excited reading this card. Then I checked the price "it's probably fifty bucks or somet-"

now I'm sad

>>50693890
It still pisses me off that his ability doesn't say "nontoken creature." Did they need to make him such a fucking flowchart commander?

>>50694109

It used to be played in legacy and vintage, less so these days but it's so rare that the price didn't drop even though it's played less

>>50694170

>flowchart commander
>implying you can't make a flowchart for anything

He would be even weaker than he already is with that clause

>>50694109
Nah, it's expensive because Legends.

And nobody plays it in Legacy because nobody fucking understands how it works.

>>50694115
I have one but it's hot garbage, like all my lists

>>50694013
Creeping dread is underrated, though necrogen mists is clearly better. I'd also recommend a splash of recursion and various enchantment tutors. Geralf's Masterpiece is also underrated, particularly if you're going for the scorched earth discard philosophy. I like isolation cell a lot in combination with Koskun Falls, propaganda and thought prison. I recommend memory jar very highly, particularly of you can recur it.

>>50694132
That one is both old and has only ever been printed once in a low print run set

Based Chinaman threw in a great proxy of that for free when I last ordered from him

>>50694132
It's expensive because it's fucking good card and falls at the same category as other bullshit that was in Legends such as Nether Void and Moat and Abyss. Have no idea if it's played in tournament formats, but it probably shows up in some decks.

>>50694195
>implying he's weak

Dunno what degenerate meta you play in but he is by far the best experience commander. And no some generals don't build themselves which would have been the case for him if they didn't make yet ANOTHER token-friendly commander.

File: 1310483412100.jpg (34KB, 413x395px) Image search: [Google]

34KB, 413x395px

>>50694214
>claims to know whether or not a card is good
>uses the term "tournament formats"

>>50694197
It's a little wordy, but it's not at all convoluted. I bet you think that banding is hard to understand as well.

>>50694197
I run it in legacy pox. It's really easy once you know what you're doing. And a few years back WOTC stopped letting judges punch you for playing cards like this.

>>50694234
Nah, I understand how it works, but a lot of people get confused by it.

Mostly when it's mixed with other replacement effects.

>>50694218

You know what you're totally right, my bad, I spoke incorrectly, I should've said, "that would make him a lot weaker", because I agree that he's not weak right now. I think he's in a good spot actually, strong but not degenerate, though the sage of hours combo is unfortunately pretty simple to use

Not sure I agree that he's the most powerful exp general "by far", meren seems on the same level to me

>>50694238
Yeah, but we got Withering Gaze or Baleful Stare as an At-Will power in exchange, so it worked out

>>50694224
Your point?
Legacy and Vintage hold these at competitive level. You can nitpick all you want, but it's a good card.
Consecrated Sphinx is good card too, but that card sees 0 play in any format that isn't EDH.

>>50694252
My point is that I don't really trust the card-analysis skills of someone who says "tournament formats".

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47KB, 265x370px

post spicy tech for your commander that nobody else seems to know about

pic related if Dralnu is ever becomes targeted

>>50694241
Well, usually I don't see any more issues with Chains than with any other replacement effects, unless an effect causes loops with it. Or then there's something I'm missing.

>>50694264

>opponent casts blasphemous act
>I'm really glad I have this supplant form instead of unsummon

Just playing though, supplant form is a cool card

>>50684352
Well, Spellweaver Volute can enchant instants in other player's graveyards, so you only need a good number of sorceries to reliably trigger it.

>>50694115
A player at my shop plays her as Tribal Wizard Combo.

You can figure it out.

>>50694288
The thing that fucks people up is that a replacement effect doesn't apply repeatedly, and that it's easy to explain Chains in 'player', but to actually word it in 'rules' it looks confusing.

It's pretty simple. IF you're gonna draw, discard and then draw instead. Can't discard? Don't draw, mill 1. EZ.

The thing that I see most people messing up is "...so I discard instead of drawing, then go to draw, so I just discard there too? So I just discard my whole hand and then mill 1? That's bullshit!".

>>50694261
I'm not wrong though. They are formats that have sanctioned tournaments.
I don't understand your beef with the term I used.

>>50694317
If anybody ever makes that assumption, I just tell them that's why it's so expensive.

>>50694310
I think I wanna go ninja route, more casual than wizards.

>>50694329
Well, sanctioned Vintage basically doesn't exist, but usually people who know what they're talking about would say "Competitive formats", or "Tournaments", or "Eternal formats", or just "legacy".

Calling them "Tournament formats" implies an unfamiliarity with anything outside the EDH bubble, which makes you sound ignorant, which detracts from how much people value your opinion. It'd be like if I gave a technically correct assessment of a specific after-market product for a streetracing car, and called the engine "The zoom-zoom metal box"

>>50694350
>Ninja
>casual
BOY DO I HAVE THE LIST FOR YOU
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/d-a-n-c-i-n-g-i-n-t-h-e-d-a-r-k/

>>50694317
Ah, I see where you're coming from. I always thought that the effect wasn't any different from other things, like when it's stated that you discard and draw, that's that.
I can't think of any other examples, but I don't think it's possible for any one permanent to create a loop by itself, rather the drawing the card being only a part of the ability resolving.

>>50694409
It's not, specifically because a replacement effect can't invoke itself or apply to the same event more than once.