Are Orcs the shittiest race in fantasy? They are never a threat

In TES the Orcs were literally shitted from a god, so yes.

>>50560136
it depends on the setting...

>>50560136
such low effort bait i didn't even touc the shift ke or spellccecked to reply

>>50560136
Orcs are fantasy nazis. They aren't _meant_ to be a threat on their own, they're meant to be a generic, low-level expression of the demon's power covering the land in such a form a band of adventures can fight it with swords.

Orcs are only "shitty" if you play them as ugly humans rather than as the dark gods will made flesh. They're a glimpse of what awaits humanity and the world if you fail.

>>50560136
They're shitty because videogames.

And by that I mean that because videogames have accepted orcs as the "generic enemy for adventurers to kill in great numbers" its become impossible for anyone to consider them as actually being anything but lumbering idiots that get killed by a level 2 retard with a sword. Since this hobby is inevitably populated by lots of people who like videogames this concept carried over and it also makes its appearance in literature helped by the fact that they were also cannon fodder by the genre defining lord of the rings.

I generally don't like settings that treat orcs as being evil without a cause. If they have to be evil then I want them to have a purpose for that evil, maybe they feel wrongly oppressed and are rising up to take back their lands. Maybe their culture feeds them the idea that humans are demonspawn that will usher in the end of the world. Maybe they're not even evil and its just ingrained in their genes that tribal warfare is a form of sport and they think humans make fine opponents to hone themselves and cull the weak.

I'm not asking for noble savages, but the idea that a species can advance to the point of understanding metallurgy and can build siege engines but have no culture surrounding that, no epic sagas of the creation of the world and its peoples, no great architectural works revering their gods, no form of unity or loyalty towards one another or respect. It seems dreadfully dull to just make them idiot monsters.

>>50560263
>Orcs are fantasy nazis.
No, they are fantasy mongols.
Fantasy nazis would be certain elf populations.

>>50560239
Close, but not quite. Their god was eaten by another and twisted up in his bowels, which in turn twisted his worshippers.

>>50560362
Huh that's actually a fairly good description.

Most of the time it's ork hordes and a sufficiently well organized or prepared civilization can easily smash them to bits effectively negating the threat that they pose outside the odd backwater hamlet and the like.

>>50560239
>>50560362
Ironically, TES Orcs are pretty good though, not just evil mooks

>>50560342
In Gothic 3 the reason why they invaded was because their land endured a harsh winter and there was nothing to eat altough they were generic cannon fodder unlike in first two Gothic games where they pose a threat for the entire game unless you cheese them with those bullshit paladin runes.

>>50560362
>orcs are mongols
>elves are nazis
Remove yourself.

>>50560362
>mongols
>don't even use cavalry
>usually disregard bows

wew

>>50562434
>>elves are nazis
I did not say that.

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>>50562446

>>50562595
boars are not horses they don't fucking count

>>50562670
They may not be horses, but they are cavalry.

>>50562446
Why would they use horses when they can already run as fast as one and have greater endurance?

>>50562716
Citation needed.

>>50560136
I just make my Orcs crusaders of another race, who worship another god, and regularly go full DEUS VULT! for their cause.

Of course, their enemies think they're cold-blooded, demon-worshiping murderers.

>>50562701
Not archer cavalry

>>50560244
Fucking this.

>>50562716
Orcs are Zulu?

>>50560362
They're fantasy germanics. Mongols and huns are the demons (or whatever other more dangerous guy) leading them.

>>50562914
>fantasy germanics

explains why they get BTFO constantly

>>50560136

>Goblin

>>50560342
It was the case since Tolkien, where orcs were smaller than humans and it wasn`t uncommon for Hobbits to kill them.

>>50562996
Exactly. They only managed to defeat the (western) roman empire after centuries of raids and zerg rushes made by several tribes during the empire's worst days.

This is because romans are dwarves.

>>50563331
Now I really wanna see Roman inspired Dwarves. It would actually suit their combat style since just like Romans they are heavy infantry using short weapons.

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>>50563374
Exactly, and persians are (high) elves, so it makes sense for them to be bitter rivals but kinda agree that the other one is a little better than the forces of darkness/barbarians.

>>50562569
But you should have.
Especially for Spelljammer...

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>>50560239
>believing altmeri propaganda
At least the Proto-Orsimer took up arms against the Velothi heretics, unlike certain others.

>>50560342
>I'm not asking for noble savages, but the idea that a species can advance to the point of understanding metallurgy and can build siege engines but have no culture surrounding that, no epic sagas of the creation of the world and its peoples, no great architectural works revering their gods, no form of unity or loyalty towards one another or respect. It seems dreadfully dull to just make them idiot monsters.

5e remarkably seems to have taken steps to remove that problem (remarkable for D&D anyway).
Volo's Guide to Monsters talks about orc culture and orc society and traditions and basically explains that their war on the other races is religious in nature.

>>50563410
>Glorious elves that represent the pure Aryan race.
>Similar at all to sand niggers.

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>>50563763
>not knowing that persians are LITERALLY aryan

Anon please, you're embarrasing yourself.

>>50563763
>Look up "aryan"
>It's some bumfuck tribe in Iran that went to India.
Where the fuck did they get this "Blonde-haired, blue eyed german" nonesense? Rhajat over in India has more of a chance of being Aryan than Henry Brit

Rolled 10 (1d20)

>>50562877
I cast Hold Goalposts

>>50563996
In the 19th century the original indo-europeans were identified with the aryans. It was perfectly normal to interchange indo-european for aryan before Hitler ruined the name. So if we use this anachronic definition, germans were not wrong by calling themselves aryan.

The blonde-haired, blue eyed thing was because this same century also saw a big boom of race pseudo-science.

>>50563996
Because ''aryan race'' as nazis saw it was literally we wuz kangz tier.

>>50564036
I'm not the same person who said pigs aren't horses, I can't move any goalpost. Orcs = mongols is retarded, they only get "mongol" features when they come in the form of generic barbaric atributes and they're always mixed with atributes of completely unrelated barbarians. Or when the writer, after looking at those atributes and deciding that he likes it, does some research and makes unconventional orcs that look a bit more like mongols (I'm yet to see a single example where they can't be better compared to other barbarians though).

>>50563329
Mind you Orcs were described on average to be shorter of stature than an average westernese man, which is said to have been around 2 meters. That's still an awful lot of height.

And there's two instances of written record where Hobbits actually fight and kill orcs/Goblins on their own, the first a historical account where the orcs had severely underestimated their enemies and got their shit kicked in and the second was the hobbits retaking the shire from Saruman and his half-orc slave labourers, whom were a major minority and whom I believe to have been malnourished and underequipped and only briefly were able to be a military threat to the shire due to psychological warfare. If it were actual fighting Uruk-Hai the hobbits would've been minced meat.

Also don't forget that Tolkien doesn't deal in gamey mechanics - His orcs don't get a -2 to str and con, his orcs band together in barely trained and organised mobs that just lolcharge the enemy wielding crudely mass-produced or looted shabby weapons, which is why they suck so bad in combat 1on1 against humans and elves.

>>50564182
Uruks are competent though.

>>50563763
After the Orcs conquer the elves, they ape every aspect of their culture despite not being elves themselves. Elfaboos, if you will.

>inb4 ottoman empire

>>50563996
As far as I am aware, history is full of instances of one ethnic/tribal group seizing power and providing the upper class over another ethnic/tribal group, which leads to people of the latter group assuming the name of the former group to become interchangeable with the ruling class. The Alans were one such instance, as well as the Rus.

In the case of national socialist propaganda, Aryan was basically interchangeable with "ruling class". Combined with the racial perceptions of the time, the idea of an "Aryan race" is basically "ruling race". The image of blue-blonde-tall-athletic is basically an ideal propagated by the NS regime as it embodied visual purity as well as historical references of the time toward the Germanic people, describing them as tall and fair-haired.

Stuff like >>50564076 has it pretty right, though: History gave them a reference, that reference was then mixed with contemporary ideals, boom, it's fucked.

>>50564350
I wanted to say that, pardon if it didn't come through properly.

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>>50560136
>Are Orcs the shittiest race in fantasy?

No, they're the best. They are the least human-like of the elf-dwarf-human-orc fantasy staple.

They have a really cool niche and I prefer them to most other classic fantasy races in most settings. Green Conan is a hell of a lot cooler to me than not!Aragorn or not!Legolas.

I'm not triggered by noble savage shit, in fact I think it's cool when done right. Bring on the orcs, baby.

>>50564684
>least human like
>just green steroid abusing humans

fantasy needs more bug people like that shit from Warcraft 3

>>50562877
Warhammer has (or had, haven't kept up with age of Sigmar) goblin wolf riders which are light cavalry and by default have bows, and in warhamer orcs and goblins are kind of the same thing.

>>50564395
Orcs and humans. Because arabs are the humans in this dark ages setting.

>>50564779
They are not the same thing any more than a manlet resembles an actual human being.

>>50564779
>and in warhamer orcs and goblins are kind of the same thing

What the fuck no. That's only in 40k where """greetchins""" (read goblins) are just "orks" who have not grown up enough. In fantasy they're both greenskins but separated species and perfectly capable of going alone. Not to mention that the actual mongols are Hobgoblins, who are even more separated from the other greenskins.

>>50564837
>Not to mention that the actual mongols are Hobgoblins, who are even more separated from the other greenskins.
I disagree. If you want to talk about who the mongols are in the setting, there are actual humans who are nomadic eastern horse people. The greenskin army, however, is/was clearly set up to let you ape most of the real world's barbarian hordes.

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>>50564767
Pretty sure he was just talking about the 4 classics, as he actually specified.

Nerubians, by the way.

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>>50564876
I'm not gonna deny that the chaos marauders you're talking about (can't remember the name) are inspired by steppe barbarians too, but are you gonna tell me this fucking dudes aren't a Genghis Khan green ripoff? Warhammer's orcs and goblins are not mongols, warhammer's hobgoblins are.

>>50564876
>>50564950
there are actually FOUR mongol inspired groups

Hobgoblins

Kurgans (those Chaos guys Grimgor rekt)

Ogre Kingdoms

those horse archers from Kislev , I think they are even related to Kurgan

>>50563472
What kind of history do orsimer have?

>>50560136
If I make a setting, I usually make the orcs the first to discover nationalism or militant communism, usualyl resulting from overthrowing an thing that lorded over an controlled them(i.e. a demon).

Orcs have the reproductive(and cross breeding) capacity of men, and the industriousness of dwarves.

Orcs hold the highest value as beings that are treated as fantasy Mongols, until that pressure lets a demagogue rise up out of them and unite them into a nation.

>>50560833
And if they ever get their shit together, can fuck a whole lot of shit.

>>50564999
The horse archers from Kislev are probably more inspired by Cossacks. And by probably I mean I'm almost sure.

>>50565118
>cossacks
>horse archers

>>50565017
Boethiah tricked Trinimac, a former God who made Orsimer (used to look like elves) into his mouth by tricking him and made his people rub his "remains" onto them to teach them the "proper way to wear their skin". Since then their worship turned to Malacath, who's the shitted out remains of Trinimac, lord of those that are casted away. In strongholds throughout Tamriel Orcs are 99% cucks with the chief Orc being the one dude that marries all the lady orcs. This usually makes new females and males fuck off into adventuring and military service. Stronghold Orcs mock those people as "Not Real Orcs Those Pussies". Daggerfall and Hammerfell both destroyed the shit out of their homes so there's not much to talk about there

>>50565726
That's fucking depressing but it explains a lot. If I was a cuck from a fucked over race I would want nothing but to kill and die too.

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>>50560362
>Orcs living in steppes, riding horses and being known for war archers
>Elves destroy part of their own population claiming that they are an evil/weak link
The first is just right out, and the second isn't really justified by drow since they openly serve a stupid evil spider god.
Hell, in Eberron one of the two major elven factions is actually mongols.

>>50560136
Are Dwarves the shittiest race in fantasy? They are never a threat on their own there is always some demon eating them.

>>50564793
I know. But someone once brought up Turkish Orcs who worship the "superior culture" of Persian Elves and I was bringing it up as an interesting example of what we were talking about.