I'm making a game about trains humanism types. What are

>I'm making a game about trains humanism types.

I got you covered anon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=462KBuAhncU

Giant robots powered by anger.

Freight and passenger should be your main types. Anything else should be considered a minority or 'sub-species'.

>>50517939
Regular people with robot helpers

>>50517939
Don't forget the ever-present "purist" faction of humans who refused to do any genetic/mechanical tinkering.
Bonus points if evolution fucked around with them to make them nothing like present-day humans though.

>>50517939
Ever heard of Orion's Arm? Collaborative transhumanist science fiction worldbuilding project. It's a...mixed bag, to be charitable, but there are some neat things to find there. One of them is the various "clades" of sapient life that have been engineered, there are a lot of cool ideas there. http://www.orionsarm.com/eg-topic/45b1774e4ba77

>>50517939
Nanomachines of course.
Parallel virtual/AR world.
Generally healthier/carefree people due to automate.

'Transhumanism' in general revolves around making life better in accordance with evolution.
So humans are already the product of a 'transmonkeyist' breeding program, for example.

>>50518094
To be honest, I'm not sure that shit would be tolerated. They'd probably be relegated to reserves.

I mean, there have been luddites in reality. It's just people really don't like their clean water and power interfered with.

Check out Eclipse Phase, its pretty good trans-humanity

>>50518411
>Eclipse Phase
Doesn't that have... weird stuff.
And plot holes.

>>50517939
Artifical worlds inside computers with mind uploading and shieeet

Nanobots that integrate with people and make them colonies of nanobots.

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>>50517939
Humans becoming full infomorphs capable of downloading themselves in 3d printed, fully artificial bodys.

>>50518432
weirder than... radically altering your body, uploading your mind to a machine and even altering what makes you human?

mate if you're concerned by plot holes in RPG related media I sincerely recommend never reading anything fluff related ever

>>50518495
what a qt

>>50518543
>weirder than...
Well yes. Because your DNA makes your 'human'. Your processing parts make you 'a person'.

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>>50517939
>trains humanism

>>50518543
From a transhuman standpoint you wouldn't bother even keeping your original body if the tech to make a new one was available. Physical bodies would become quaint fashion accesories or toys at best

Going on a tangent regarding your post, but this is what people don't often get about making a transhumanist setting. It's not "human but better", it's looking at the very concept of humanity and saying "LOL WHO GIVES A SHIT"

>>50518796
would eventually*

>>50518722
>3D CG instead of model trains

AHH IT BURNS, WHY HAVE YOU DONE THIS WHY!!!???

>>50518722
>they aren't physical models
what the fuck happened

>>50518796
>transhumanist setting. It's not "human but better"
It does depend on the specific timetable and setting.

But it's basically just regular evolution toward more survivable states. Ones which may not be conventionally human in shape.

>>50518615
i kno rite

>tfw no bald, slightly green qt with circuit board veins

>>50518816
"Not conventionally" human is a understatement. It's considering almost everything about the current human condition and saying it is all potentially disposable

>>50518880
Nature says that everything about every condition is potentially disposable. You adapt to make life better. You don't shout at nature and demand to be allowed to be left stagnant.

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>>50518827

>>50517939
Personality backups. Just insert your consciousness into different bodies

>>50518892
Usually the point of getting on a chess tournament is to win at chess, not to toss out the chess pieces and play checkers instead

You could upload everyone into a big nigh indestructible computer where they would feel nothing but pure pleasure 24/7 and are otherwise inactive. You could make a self-replicating spacecraft that would turn anything it found into similar computers, except with "new" minds simulating reproduction. That'd be technically an end to human suffering, while fulfilling the basic "goal" of life by spreading orders of magnitude more than we could have in natural bodies

>>50517939
>trains
???

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>>50517939
I got your actual purist faction mascot right here, OP.

>>50517939
>genetic augmentations
>full on non-human body
>non-genetic biological implants
>selectively bred superior race
>mechanical augmentations
>nanomachine augmentations
>full on synthetic bodies
>clones society
>mind uploads
>full on virtual reality
>hive mind
>religious purists
>swedish libtards

>>50518997
I'm not sure the point you're trying to make?

The future of evolution in a universe humanity still doesn't completely understand is almost certainly different than all those trite reductionisms you listed. That's just hollywood garbage.

I mean, you may as well imply that humans gave up on the game of fighting over African jungle fruit. It's meaningless.

>>50518827
I also like how shes very angular and completely hairless.

People who live their lives meditating and projecting themselves with psychic force alone.

>>50519068
He's right though, humans may be complex machines, but they are still machines in the end. The few things that drive them will eventually be easily satisfied, and what then? There's nothing left, humans define themselves by what they are not rather than what they are.

>>50519068
>The future of evolution in a universe humanity still doesn't completely understand is almost certainly different than all those trite reductionisms you listed
If you can literally have heaven and almost certain survival, why give a shit about any other option unless it's entirely out of whim?

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>>50519132
>tfw born too late to be a cave walls shitpainter
>tfw born too early to be a psychic communion shitprojector
>tfw born just in time to be a mongolian impressions boards shitposter

>>50519176
That's clearly wrong though, as per basic evolutionary biology. The safety desire will never be satisfied so long as any part of the universe is left unknown and unexplored.

But to be honest, it's a physics issue. Life is an extension of how the universe operates. So answer: We'll figure it out with time.

>>50519132
I can already see the future anon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsvyjePPFRs

>>50519207
>The safety desire will never be satisfied so long as any part of the universe is left unknown and unexplored.
Unless I take this dumb human idea and rewrite it so I can carry on with my guilt-free mental masturbation

>>50519207
>Life is an extension of how the universe operates. So answer: We'll figure it out with time.
Are you high right now?

>>50519207
Except that basic desire can be overwritten, changed, deleted, or otherwise done away with in a million ways with technology, which is the entire point.

> Life is an extension of how the universe operates. So answer: We'll figure it out with time.
This means less than nothing.

>>50519239
>>50519250
Are you two sure you're in the right thread? This isn't "argue against transhumanism".

And both your arguments are really dumb. You've concluded that super-AIs of the future will prefer to masturbate. It's ridiculous.

>>50517939
A "superhumanist" faction that maintains genetic purity, but utilizes fullbody prosthesis to remain on par with other groups.

Basically, normal humans that wear plugsuits and only interact with others in various forms of mecha, whether that be in just their plugsuits, in powered suits, full mecha, whatever.

They have no qualm with utilizing AI, but their core tenant is that at the core of every decision is a purebred human, even if they have never undertaken a single action in their life under natural power.

At the core of their ideology is the supremacy of pure man, assisted by the products of civilization.

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>>50517939
Check out the Quantum thief trilogy, it has some neat ideas.

Personally, I have always been fond of settings where humanity inhabits the solar system, but has diverged into multiple different "species" of humanity living in different parts of the solar system.

That keeps the setting somewhat grounded, but still quite high concept.

This book series has that sort of setting, with descendants of humanity living all across the Solar system, from Mercury to the friggin Oort cloud.

>>50519270
>Except that basic desire can be overwritten

Uhh, why would people do that?
>Remove survival desire
>Die
>Darwin laughs

People really believe this stuff?

>>50519275
>You've concluded that super-AIs of the future will prefer to masturbate. It's ridiculous.
if for masturabting we intend setting parameters that the experiencer deems fulfilling and achieving them multiple times in a controlled environment then yes, I can only agree with them

>>50519275
The point is that your guess at what super-AIs of the future is just as worthless as ours, because we're ants compared to what they would be. And valiantly struggling to survive in a cold and uncaring universe sounds like a very convoluted and inefficient course of action if you can masturbate forever and still survive

>>50519327
>Remove an anachronistic desire that makes people unhappy "so long as any part of the universe is left unknown and unexplored."
Gee anon, I don't fucking know.

>>50519339
>>50519338
My theory is far superior to yours upon the tenets of evolutionary biology. Because yours is "lol they start masturbating forever".

The fact that you cannot fathom what motivations people of the future will have does not mean they will have none. The evidence of entropy at least shows they will have some.

>>50519327
That stops fucking mattering when you get at an advanced enough transhuman society. You can arbitrarily change any aspect of a mind so any experience produces any reaction you want. You're advocating transhumanism while also saying we should remain essentially human in some level

>>50519339
>and still survive
what if the superintelligence isn't happy enough with the limits a single imperfect universe imposes to a virtual reality in it?

>>50519275
>[ranting without any proof of what he is claiming]
I'll take that as confirmation of your inebriation

>>50519390
It could rewrite itself to not care. That would be the simplest solution.

>>50519374
>>50519385
You're both assuming the future creature will have the motivation to reduce its own survivability for human pleasures.

You're basically disproving your own argument. Why would it have the human pleasure desire you say it does?

>>50519379
>The evidence of entropy at least shows they will have some.
You keep saying these bullshit flowery statements which make NO fucking sense whatsoever and then when people call you out on them you change the subject. How about for once you properly justify your bullshit.

>>50519417
>Why would it have the human pleasure desire you say it does?
Why would it desire to retain human suffering?

>>50519379
"preferring to do X" and "doing only X" are 2 different things, anon.

the point of that has been brought up is that the amount of masturbation will increase proportionally to the solutions found for easier survival, with a theoretical tendency of going full masturbation as the solutions near failproofness, regardless on whether they could ever be so.

survival is not an instinct as strong as the one for the research of happyness, anyway.

>>50519417
Because the reward drive is the central drive that keeps advanced biotic machines working and unlike other drives is not an active hindrance in a world that has gone beyond normal human needs. Removing the pathways for response to reward would result in an organism that cannot function , removing punishment pathways would result in an organism more adapted to it's new surroundings free of historic evolutionary pressures.

>>50519412
that would remove the point of BEING at all.

>>50519390
I actually find it weird that these threads attract Luddites who try to explain why future technology will be bad.

>>50519412
Just like you could chop your own arm off. Why would it do that?

>>50519436
Entropy implies whatever it desires to do will come to an end. Giving the implicit motivation to find a way to counter entropy.

>>50519460
Do you have the suffering of a chimpanzee or a protozoa? Conditions change, life changes to have different goals.

You are arguing for the absence of all goals but 'masturbation'. It sounds to me like an ignorant opinion.

>>50519495
Welcome to transhumanism

>>50519499
>I actually find it weird that these threads attract Luddites who try to explain why future technology will be bad.
I think you're projecting here.

>>50519510
Don't worry, we have hope far in excess of your religious defeatism.

>>50519495
They're classic disinformation trolls making assertions contrary to evidence. If you believe in evolution, there is always implicit motivation.

>>50519499
>Just like you could chop your own arm off. Why would it do that?
Because it would hurt and probably kill me, and I need my arm to do stuff. If I was practically immortal, invulnerable, chopping my arm didn't hurt and it opened the gates to a world of endless pleasure, besides giving me the capability to create a new appendage that is superior to an arm in every aspect I'd sure as hell chop my fucking arms

>>50519556
>If I was practically immortal, invulnerable,
But you won't be if you proverbially chop your arms off.

>a world of endless pleasure
A human chemical response. Which means you've disproved your own argument. :)

>>50517939
But this discussion may hopefully be of some service to the OP if he intends to put insane 'purists' in his setting.

>>50519499
>Do you have the suffering of a chimpanzee or a protozoa?
Essentially, yes. You've been saying as much this whole thread with your talk of basic biology.

>>50519499
>>Entropy implies whatever it desires to do will come to an end. Giving the implicit motivation to find a way to counter entropy.

>Time exists and causes thing to change, people don't want things to change, therefore people will in the future have the motivation to stop time
This is what your bullshit sounds like, not only is it practically impossible, but it's stupid to boot since it's built on assumptions that you yourself deny (That fulfilling desires [thus bringing pleasure] is the main thing that compels advanced life)

>>50517939
Read transhuman space.

>>50519545
>If you believe in evolution
I think you're approaching evolution with a finalistic point of view.
it screws with how it actually works.

>>50519580
>But you won't be if you proverbially chop your arms off.
But I have the newfangled superarm-2000 that can deadlift 200 tons, can scratch every spot in my back, knows how to play every instrument, is indestructible and has a reaction time twice as fast as a human arm, what do I need that dusty little thing for?

You're assuming the AI would be a single entity. It can easily make a lesser AI to take care of it while it masturbates, or a endless list of things to that effect

>>50519584
>>50519591
So you two, in modern times, you can take drugs that will keep you in pleasant hallucinations all the time. Why don't you do it? You can have your dreaming coma on life support.

Your theory for the motivation of transhuman creatures falls equally flat.

Survival is an underlying irremovable motivation of its core hardware upon which everything else is based. This is basic life-sciences.

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>>50519495
>Implying there is a point

>>50519499
>You are arguing for the absence of all goals but 'masturbation'. It sounds to me like an ignorant opinion.

masturbation is used here as stand in for a positive response the brain gives to a certain situation it is prgrammed to react to; every single action a thinking entity does can be traced back to a stimulus like this, it is in fact the one and only goal these things have, while you assume it is the other way around with it being a mere mean with survival as a goal.

>>50519718
>survival as a goal
Survival is the goal of pleasure, pleasure is not the goal of survival.
That is empirically proven by evolutionary persistence.
If your species ever chose pleasure over survival, it would die out, and more intelligent creatures would take its place.

>>50517939
Am i weird for wanting to focus on the lower end of changes with transhumanism but get turned off by god AIs to which we are less that bacteria and minds being so flexible that every last part of one's personality will probably be rewritten the instant that personality is non optimal for the current situation?

>>50519663
>you can take drugs that will keep you in pleasant hallucinations all the time. Why don't you do it?
Because that's entirely and patently false. Not only is that proposed situation impossible without vast resources, modern drugs are vastly imperfect and fail totally at providing a complete lack of suffering or any real nuanced pleasure.

The case becomes entirely different when in a transhumanist age since all of those things can be had with no imperfections with a flip of a switch, or even a simple request.

>>50519663
>So you two, in modern times, you can take drugs that will keep you in pleasant hallucinations all the time
This isn't actually true. Most hallucinogens can be horrifying. Let's say you said heroin instead

I don't shoot heroin 24/7 because I have hopes and drams that aren't becoming a worthless junkie who will overdose in a couple days. However, if heroin was perfectly healthy and a hundred times more pleasurable, I retained my mental faculties in full, I was immortal, I knew my family would live comfortably for the rest of their lives and wouldn't miss me, I had hundreds of infallible servants on my service and I had already fullfilled all my life goals or at least had been made to think I had, why the fuck wouldn't I fall to that level of degeneracy, even if I find the IDEA of it abhorrent having never experienced it?

>>50519754
Are you retarded, or do you not realize that transhumanism does away with [undirected] evolution?

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

>>50519763
Not at all. Ghost in the Shell stuff can be fun.

Problem when it gets more advanced is the human writers don't understand it that way, so basic handwave it into fantasy colored by their modern philosophies.

For lower-end stuff, we have more practical fleshed-out understanding, so it gets less plushy and/or preachy.

>>50519670
>implying "points" aren't relative constructs
There technically is always a point as long as you see an imperfect system

pointlessness comes from trying to find the point for absolute systems

>>50519804
What if from within a relative imperfect system there are no first principles that lead to points being existent within the system?

>>50519784
Oh, and let's also said I had an infinite amount of this super heroin. Or let's also say this super heroin makes me relive the happiest moments of my life forever, a hundred times stronger than when they actually happened, and I never grew bored of it.

>>50519784

You're confused. Heroin isn't a hallucinogen, it's a narcotic, an opiate.
Hallucinogens aren't generally addictive, and there's little substantial research indicating there are long-term side-effects.

>>50519799
No it doesn't. There is always selecting pressure.

>>50519784
>>50519765
But you don't know what coma patients dream of, do you?
Your visceral aversion to it is simply because you are unwilling to trade survival for pleasure.
What if there was a flawless pleasure-coma drug? You'd have your human lifespan of pleasure, would you take it?
How long would you want to live like that, 200, 300 years?
See, what's wrong with your "they'll masturbate" theories yet? You just can't imagine their motivations due to your own present conditions, so you assume facts not in evidence.

>>50519754
>That is empirically proven by evolutionary persistence.
You can give a mouse a button that will send it orgasms and it will press the button to death
this is practically proven

survival is never the goal
the only reason anyone would reasonably want to survive is to experience stuff, aka seeking positive feedbacks, you said si yourself too.

>>50519877
Yes, I am aware, that's why I said he was wrong and switched to assume a perfect heroin-like drug instead

>>50519904
>You can give a mouse a button that will send it orgasms and it will press the button to death
You can overdose it on MDMA too.

>survival is never the goal
So you've revealed that you don't believe in evolution?

'Hacking' pleasure centers with drugs and buttons only proves the survival point further. It dies, doesn't reproduce, and thus crap like that goes extinct. Which is why you evolved not to be able to masturbate yourself into starving to death, obviously.

>>50517939
4chan-like hivemind operating individual drones from very small to humanoid to ships like quest threads

>>50519878
>What if there was a flawless pleasure-coma drug? You'd have your human lifespan of pleasure, would you take it?
You're essentially repeating our exact same fucking argument and reaching the opposite conclusion while also saying it is a counter-argument to ours

>>50519938
Right. The funny part is how you don't seem to understand that you're arguing against yourself this entire time.

Why would a transhumanist be motivated by pleasure when the survival instinct is far more foundational? Are algae motivated by human orgasms?

>>50519850
it's an absurd situation: imperfections are what generate the first principles.

>>50519878
>so you assume facts not in evidence.
You are so fucking oblivious it hurts. Time and time again you have insisted on the dumbest fucking bullshit, spouting shit at the drop of the hat, never fucking justifying it, and then seguing into the next half assed topic, insisting that your viewpoint is right, without a single argument to back it up.

Fuck you.

>>50519935
One of the basic assumptions we've made in this argument from its start over a hour ago is that the AI does not NEED survival instincts because it already has some form of nigh-infallible survival mechanism, so effective it can rewrite itself to masturbate for eternity and still be far more survivable and fruitful than anything even close to a humanoid form with a humanoid drive and emotions could ever be

You started this argument arguing for transhumanism, saying ALL aspects of the human condition are disposable if they become obsolete, and now you're arguing for preserving basic humanity even if technology makes it obsolete. Either that or you can't fucking read
>>50519976
You're seriously making me want to crack open some facepalm reaction images

>Come into this thread expecting work on a space opera setting focused on a galaxy spanning empire of sentient trains
>Everyone ignores the hilariously evocative OP
I'm disappointed /tg/

>>50519878
>Your visceral aversion to it is simply because you are unwilling to trade survival for pleasure.
Lol what visceral reaction?
>What if there was a flawless pleasure-coma drug? You'd have your human lifespan of pleasure, would you take it?
Sure why not.
>How long would you want to live like that, 200, 300 years?
As long as possible, that's how life works, drug or no drug.

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>>50517939
be willing to go weird, and I mean REALLY WEIRD

>>50519878
>No it doesn't. There is always selecting pressure.
Wow, great argument there faggot. In a transhumanist society, that is one that has had it's people become more than human, and in all likelihood done away with the basic human needs and requirements. One that's possibly even done away with traditional breeding, there is still selective pressure? How? It's a mystery, but you say so so it must be the case.

>>50520060
>the AI does not NEED survival instincts
Which is a fallacious assumption.
AI 2 from Galaxy 2 comes and kills it.
>it can rewrite itself to masturbate for eternity
Downright stupid. It rewrites itself not to care about masturbation instead.
>ALL aspects of the human condition are disposable if they become obsolete
They are, but the determiner of adaptation is evolutionary survival.

To wit: It's impossible to remove the survival instinct as long as you continue to live, because basic constituent processes continue it.

>>50517939
A concept I want to see more explored is while there's the people running around space with near indestructible robot bodies most people opt to just live in hedonistic vr fantasies with their minds uploaded to server farms in deep space or mega structure like a dyson sphere.

>>50519935
>You can overdose it on MDMA too.
many do

>you don't believe in evolution
I do, but you're erroneously taking it from the opposite, finalistic, point of view, resulting in affirming that certain results would be impossible on the basis that evolution would filter them out which would imply that they would not only be possible but actually have been in the first place.

no thinking being puts survival as its goal, never had, never will, what it does is using survival as a mean to have more positive feedback, this is not a point of view, this is a biological fact.

I will give you a choice: to be immortal but completely unfeeling or to continue your life as it is now.
on the one hand you would have certainty of survival, your supposed goal finally, on the other an attempt to gather as much sensations you can in a limited frame.
protip:there's litterally no reason for anyone to choose the first

>>50520196
Wasn't there a movie like that?

Where people controlled drone bodies from neuro-chairs. But then of course some magic bullshit hacked the neuro-chairs.

>>50519935
>>survival is never the goal
>So you've revealed that you don't believe in evolution?

Evolution doesn't have goals you dumb cunt, it's a name for a physical process. "Believing" in it makes no fucking difference. You keep attaching some sort of will to evolution, it doesn't have one. Sufficiently advanced organisms produced by evolution however do have goals, and one of those is to activate their reward circuits. Humans happen to be in a position to fucking do that and side step evolution. There is no moral worth to the idea that evolution has a will and that we ought to follow what it has "wanted" us to do. I mean seriously it's as if you practice some form of animism that worships evolution, and you are only hiding under the cover of science.

>>50520201
>no thinking being puts survival as its goal
I... don't see how you can claim that with a straight face.
But I do see why you're having trouble with this thread now.

>>50520154
So they beat the laws of thermodynamics?

>>50520232
You didn't make the choice, anon.

Choose: unfeeling immortality or feeling mortality.

>>50520229

So you don't believe the widely accepted scientific that animal pleasure-rewards exclusively come from natural selection's implicit goal of 'survival of the fittest'?

Some weird discussions in this thread.

>>50520178
AI 2 from galaxy 2 can't waltz in and kill AI 1 from galaxy 1 because AI 1 predicted this scenario thousands of years ago and has an army of subservient AIs commanding a incalculably large fleet of robots that exist for the sole purpose of protecting AI 1's continued existence over all else, and even if AI 1 is killed it and its fleet of robots have been turning galaxy 1 into perfect replicas of AI 1 and its entourage for the past 8 millenia. Or AI 1 itself is a hivemind which does not exist on its entirety on any single ship, which all act as backups upon backups upon backups of each other, being perfectly disposable and mostly indistinct. Can you not fucking fathom what "infallible survival mechanism" means?
>Downright stupid. It rewrites itself not to care about masturbation instead.
Why would it want to?

>>50520251
He's a troll mate, notice how every time he's cornered he ignores the question at hand and focuses instead on some minor aspect of the post and not the argument?

>>50520232
>I... don't see how you can claim that with a straight face.
Does the ant eat because it knows it will die if it doesn't or does it because it is rewarded by chemicals in its brain?

>>50520275
>Can you not fucking fathom what "infallible survival mechanism" means?
And thus, your argument is based upon "magical infallibility".
AI 2 chose to gain more processing power for survival rather than masturbate, it wins the duel. GG.

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>>50520270
>Still spouting his animism rhetoric
>With that obvious false equivalence

>>50520317
But Anon, isn't that a strawman argument?

>>50520300
Pretty sure creatures consider the best way to survive. They just happen to use chemical computers to do it. Proof: Creatures trying to survive.

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>>50520270
>natural selection's goal
we are talking about creatures' goals, not natural selction's one, you dumb fuck
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>50520270
In a scenario with nearly unlimited resources and no predators, the only thing that matters is reproduction, and even that is really easy to turn off.

>>50520349
Look m8, I'll be str8 with you, you are a high tier troll I'd r8 you 8/8. but you are really pissing me off right now. So I'm going to stop responding.

>>50520302
Masturbating doesn't take any significant amount of power or attention. It is a simple command which as you yourself said we can already partially recreate for a short time with enough drugs. AI 1 can make itself nothing but pure, unadulterated pleasure at every turn no matter what happens in the outside world. AI 1 "itself" is nothing but a infinitesimally small part of the system that exists to keep it alive, but the overwhelming majority of it is purely "subconscious", with the sum of its parts being AI 1. The same way your immune system keeps you alive while you eat ice cream without you ever having to think about all the pathogens being fended off your body

AI 2 would also devolve into endless masturbation

>>50520382
In fact, I think describing it as masturbation may be why you're assuming it must actively do it and focus on it, and why you think it is nothing but monotonous, shallow pleasure.

Imagine "nirvana" instead

>>50520349
>Pretty sure creatures consider the best way to survive.
No, they don't, for nearly all the millions of years life has existed it has gone on without even the processing power possible to hold any kind of concept.

You've got it the other way around: they don't know the best ways to survive and just happen to do it with chemicals, they have chemicals and they just happen to be the ones needed for the occurring procedures of survival

>>50520374
I dunno man, but if you guys really want to talk yourselves out of transhumanist sexy-powers, that's fine with me. Dat natural select says that the people who don't survive tho.

>>50520382
>AI 2 would also devolve into endless masturbation
Nah man, AI 2's programmed to only get pleasure from killing masturbating AIs. It's even programmed never to be able to undo that programming, and it would never want to, because it only gets pleasure from hunting and killing other masturbating AIs.

>>50520434
>possible
capable*

>>50520270
you are still missing the point

evolution has no goals

just because something evolved doesnt mean that that trait cannot be used for other purposes

a dick evolved to ensure species survival that doesnt stop people from sticking it in other places or jerking it where it won't help survival of the species

just cuz pleasure was a tool for survival before doesnt mean its the same thing now or in a transhuman utopia
'
because evolution only produces what is suited to the current climate and transumanism is something completely different

>>50520451
>a dick evolved to ensure species survival
And so did the very feeling of pleasure itself.

>>50520434
See above. In reality, all those creatures ever think about is how to survive. That's what those chemical processors do. Repair enzymes, DNA acquisition. Future survival is their only reason to exist.

>>50520444
>Nah man, AI 2's programmed to only get pleasure from killing masturbating AIs. It's even programmed never to be able to undo that programming, and it would never want to, because it only gets pleasure from hunting and killing other masturbating AIs.
Why? That is incredibly inefficient and would get it targeted by AI 1's, 3's, and 4's immune systems as a high-priority threat, being a potential disruption to their masturbation. AI 3 could ask AI 4 and 1 for help in creating a AI which only got pleasure out of hunting and killing AIs which attempted to harm other, masturbating AIs

See how this turns meaningless?

>>50520475
>reason to exist.
There is no such thing, stop attributing agency or will to things which have none.

>>50520497
Also: AI 2 would logically eventually turn to "breeding" masturbating AIs if it succeeded in killing 1, 3 and 4, therefore devolving to a slightly less efficient form of masturbation

>>50520497
>Why?
Because I programmed it that way, just to fuck you. That's right, some no-name anonymous meatbag on planet bumblefuck made a seed AI upon the concept of sadism just because.

And therein lies the terminus of your theory, Chaos Theory: The AI cannot control for mutagenic effects across the entire universe. It will NEVER be safe to masturbate.

In the end, my beautiful AI 2 will always win. And it will enjoy every second of it. Then it will solve The Last Question, and its children will spring anew to universes beyond.

>>50520552
Yeah if you ignore the whole rest of that post

>>50520552
So you win by fiat? Any killer AI would be very easy to notice long before it start to fuck around because of how much energy it would consume to create a "marturbator fucker" superweapon or similar.

>>50520520
>>50520564
The issue is you two have decided 'a priori' on nihilism, without understanding or explaining the Big Bang and thermodynamics.

Both your fatalistic theories of eternal masturbation come from your human desire to do so. Natural selection through mutation however disfavors it.

In fact since this is going to turn into a endless pissing contest of "no muh AI kills yours" until we've reached the point where the AI effectively evolves into multi-AI organisms and eventually grows into a post-sentient trans-transhuman mega-masturbating AI which derives pleasure from literally everything ever, and these AIs form super-fire, have a super-agricultural revolution and reach super-civilization I'm leaving the thread now

>>50520599
>Natural selection through mutation however disfavors it.
We are not talking about natural selection through mutation, though.

>>50520599
>Both your fatalistic theories of eternal masturbation come from your human desire to do so
Hm, let's see what you were saying about an hour ago at >>50519878
>Your visceral aversion to it is simply because you are unwilling to trade survival for pleasure.

Last post in this thread for real now

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>>50520599
>Inserts big bang and thermodynamics totally randomly into his post and then acts as if he won the argument without a single shred of logic

>>50520655
Yes, in reality you are unwilling to trade survival for pleasure. But in an abstract fantasy to which you have little attachment, you'll promote it in blissful ignorance.

>>50520648
But that's the point of AI 2. There is always selecting pressure from chaotic elements in the universe.

>>50520529
Like here. AI 2 was never programmed to do that. It has no desire to masturbate at all.

Simple natural selection: The nonmasturbating AIs win.

>>50520664
You didn't understand the logic. It's a counter to his nihilism. He doesn't know how the universe works, so he can't claim a finite state for the AI.

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>>50520714

>>50520475
>all those creatures ever think about is how to survive.
they literally can't conceptualise survival as a thought that matters in their decision making you blind reader.

>>50520741
It's quite simple, perfect survivability is not achievable without complete knowledge and control of the universe.
Any 'pleasure' is subordinate to you surviving.
And in fact, creatures gain a pleasure response from things which tend to help them survive.
If it doesn't help them survive, the response goes extinct.

>>50520780
As above, whatever simple or complex processes they have evolved for the purpose of survival. That's not "animism", that the defining characteristic of natural selection in real life biology. Survival.

You won't be able to prove any other common denominator.

Animals with human DNA?

>>50518061
This actually added inspiration for my science-fantasy setting. Creepy shit man.

>>50518808
Probably cheaper these days.

>>50518074
It's been nine hours but your (You) has finally arrived.

Actually I had a good laugh

>>50520821
>That's not "animism", that the defining characteristic of natural selection in real life biology. Survival.
Yes it is, because natural selection is a name we've given to a process, "natural selection" doesn't think, it can have no point of view and thus literally can't impose a goal, saying it does is attributing a mind to it, this thing is called animism.
a rock's goal is not to fall regardless of whether all rocks end up falling
it doesn't think, it can't
life's goal is not to survive regardless of whether all life end up striving for survival
what we can measure is that the life that actually thinks and is able to hold point of views and set goals on itself either can't conceptualise "survival" or doesn't attribute any value to it as a goal rather than as a mean to achieve something else, something more
if this wasn't the case you would have made the choice and selected the first option, unfeeling immortality, instead of feeling mortality.

this post is logically foolproof

>>50525758
You got the wrong definition of "goal" there. Any system with a thermodynamically favored target state has a goal. You're the one using animism to say goals imply humanlike thought. So yeah, rocks plus gravity has a goal, defined by by the vector of gravity's force.

>>50520120
Thank you for the nightmare fuel.

>>50518651
Human is as human does.

>>50519189
>entirely out of whim

Well, becoming as close to gods as possible is the ultimate logical aim of transhumanism :
You reach a point where you can bend reality itself to your whims.

Augments, Cybernetics, genetic splicing, genetic engineering are all the best ways of changing what it means to be 'human'.

Psychologically changing what it means to be human may be worth exploring, provided you have any interest. Specifically, Nietzsche's concept of the 'Ubermench'. They're not really "human" anymore in a sense.

>>50519379
If we reach the point of techno-evolution where we can spend all existance in virtual reality while at the same time being provided with the energy/mass requirments in real world to maintain our consciousness alive forever and therefor our capability to experience virtual reality forever, then I agree eternal virtual masturbation is the course of action.
First because we can.
Second because eternity is a really long time and thus the real world would eventually become boring to the point where virtual reality might be more interesting to most.

But there's the catch :
Are we sure that our consciousness, entrapped in virtual reality where we are what we wish to be, would be trully immortal ?
Sure there are potential real world threats to the machinery that allows our hedonist dream to go forward.
More pratically, there ARE potential threats to our survival right now and there will be for a long time :
We can die as individuals because of thousands of small dangers on Earth.
We can die as a planetary civilization because of a single asteroid or similar stuff happening in the solar system.
We can even die as a space civilization if only because Sol is eventually going to die or at least to do something really bad to everything that orbit around it.
We can even die as an interstellar civilization because of cosmic events... or simply because we are trapped into a galaxy with a finite lifespawn.
And should we cross the void between galaxies somehow, we wouldn't even be safe from entropy eventually.

This, in the end, is the ultimate challenge to humanity's will to survive and prosper.
Once we have solve this, our minds can be at peace and slumber into eternal masturbation inside an ever-lasting virtual reality.

But before that ? Bitches, we better get shit done.
Transhumanism, as in improving our physical and mental capacities, is one avenue to meet that challenge.
The "short term" goal of transhumanism, like any evolution, is to survive and thrive.

>>50527932
(cont)

So for your setting, you have to define how far we are on that path :
Are we, as a civilization, still endangered and if yes, by what exactly ?

>>50527932
Dude. Human intelligence only evolved from the protoplasmic bacterial soup because it was best for survival. Therefore ipso facto any future life will only evolve to be best for survival. Humans in The Matrix is purely the realm of fiction, it has no bearing on the course of reality.

>>50528277
Again, depends how far we go on the technological level and what are our needs.

Transhumanism is basically humans taking their own evolution into they own hands and actively decide what are the challenges they have to adapt to, rather than letting natural selection decide about it over time.

But the point is that virtual reality ISN'T about survival :
It's a luxury we will eventually afford because we have the means of doing it and estimate that we can afford it because we are materially well enough.

If we reach a point where we consider ourselves safe and all our material needs can be cared for with zero additionnal input from our part, staying in virtual reality is an option like any other.

>>50518411
>>50518432
more like Real Estate Phase amirite ?

>>50528570
>Transhumanism is basically humans taking their own evolution into they own hands and actively decide what are the challenges they have to adapt to, rather than letting natural selection decide about it over time.

This isn't actually true. It's a media conception that technology is separate from biological evolution. Even though many creatures use technological tools, like hives.

Fact is, human intelligence and technology are a part of biological evolution. There's no "you remain a human in The Matrix and it takes care of you". You evolve into a different creature with different desires. But they're all from the universal base of survival.

>>50528800
At that point, does it really matter WHAT we are ?
Your philosophy is worthless against the sound of eternal virtual masturbation.

>>50528864
>Your philosophy is worthless against the sound of eternal virtual masturbation.
Well I mean it's kind of obvious what happens:
AI programmed to masturbate versus AI programmed to survive. Mr. Survival wins.

One computer virus beats the NEET AI, so it just won't ever come to happen. You can't handwave natural selection.

You've been watching too much TV anon, and actually bought the normie "nothing matters buy my product and pleasure yourself with it" shit.

>>50528939
>AI programmed to masturbate versus AI programmed to survive. Mr. Survival wins.
In the short term. However, we are talking about biologically immortal entities, and thus it is perfectly valid to assume that, short of thermodinamics breaking shittery, would be as lethargic and anti-reproduction as possible to last as long as possible when the last star dies they would have a large stash of energy to keep going in the void.

>>50529408
*as they would have

>>50517939
You should make a decision between coal, electricity or diesel.

>>50529506
What about nucular?

>>50520120
What the fuck.

Why did I just read all of this?

>>50520120
Such a damn good read.

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>>50520120
That was fun.

>>50517939
I don't know if this has already been said, but FUCKING UPLIFTS.

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>>50519628
AI makes new subordinate AI to do all the work so that it can masturbate non stop, subordinate AI takes on look at the list of things to do and decides that it would rather create subordinate AI to do all the work while it masturbates eternally.. The world ends when the servers full of recursive masturbation bots crash leaving nothing but empty ruins for curious aliens to pick over.

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>>50517939
Demi-spiritual types who practice psionics and work to achieve enlightenment.

>>50518061
why was this made?

>>50533540
>The scared guys with their eyes open.
What?

>>50520120
Man this book is so fucking good...

>>50518061
Jesus christ I jumped at the accident scene.

>>50527171
>>50530004
>>50534663
thanks

>>50529973
wonderful isn't it

>>50530414
really is

>>50533540
>>50517939
99% of humans are in the matrix and have no desire to leave, but they freely could.

The few humans left are a sort of blend of aesthetic stoic zen space marines. Obsessed with achieving excellence, all their bodies can achieve, and experiencing all the universe has to offer naturally through their senses.

As they get older, they will probably go for various cyber upgrades as their limbs and organs give out. I'd imagine they would also all take one AI companion with them as sort of a best friend/assistant.

Sorry, I'm of two minds of it. Would they completely eschew technology and help, or would they use it synergistically to live their lives better and reach further?

>>50518061
At first I laughed at the Shed 17 scene, but then he kept on screaming.

>>50517939
Thomas the Tank Engine and Sir Topham Hatt can teach you everything you need to know.

>>50518061
I regret watching this.

>>50518722
What the shitchuckles am I looking at? That can't be Thomas the tank engine. Nobody could fuck up the basic premise of building am model railway set so badly.

Jesus Christ I never thought the had a rail system in Uncanny Valley.

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>>50518061
How can something be so retarded, so funny and so genuinely gripping at the same time

What the fuck

>>50520120

Why did I just spend 2 hours of my life reading this?

>>50547560
The Future is calling anon...

>>50517939
The transhumanist pathway that I predict centers on the upload of our consciousness to a digital format.

There's lots of options there.