As a long time hater of 4e, I think I've just come up with

>>50472369
As someone who has actually run one, I can confirm that it suits the style. It was one of the most fun 4e campaigns I ran. Mind you, my group never genuinely disliked 4e, but the narrative conceit of it being "all in a game" really meshed with the actual gameplay.

>>50472369
>All the people like myself have long compared the game (derisively) to a tabletop mmorpg.

And you're still as wrong now as you were every other time you bring it up.

>>50472425
okay, well if you enjoy the game, have fun. my 2e campaign is just as happy without fighters who somehow run out of physical stunts and heal themselves with the power of thought.

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>>50472457
>fighters who somehow run out of physical stunts and heal themselves with the power of thought.

>>50472467
Not even involved in this argument, but thank you for that image. Genuinely made my day.

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>>50472457
>hp is actual health
>you don't treat hp as an abstract of fighting resilience

>>50472499
yeah thats one way to do it, but then landing hits doesn't FEEL like anything. "oh you hammered his shield real hard... he looks kind of like he doesn't want to be here" doesn't have the same fun for my group.

plus if its fighting resilience then shouldn't wisdom, will scores, and charisma partially be factored into calculating hp?

hp being actual physical health isnt so silly in systems where it isnt loaded on in heaps. 1d8 strict per level makes each hit you can physically sustain way more important than getting like 15 hp to start and flat amounts of at least 4 per level.

>>50472457
>fighters who somehow run out of physical stunts and heal themselves with the power of thought.

>I have no creativity
>It's the system's fault
>I see nothing wrong with this line of logic.

>>50472576
>hp being actual physical health isnt so silly in systems where it isnt loaded on in heaps.

You actually don't get all that much HP in 4e. It's just that it's frontloaded so you have more health at level 1 than other systems, but gain it slower and have less by the end as a result.

>>50472584
if swinging a swor real hard a certain way lets you do something incredible and different from a normal swing, there is no in universe reason that you shouldnt be able to do the same thing a second time.

the only way to make it make sense is that its some sort of in universe supernatural power, but then we just have wizards with swords, or worse, naruto ninjas.

>everyone complained about the classes being "unbalanced" because LAST edition the designers gave the wizard babies everything they wanted and it made magic users crazy fucked from lv 1
>lthey overcorrect by just making every class play very the same with powers all working the same way even if it makes no sense
>im the one with no creativity

man, you're so generous to have donated so much of your brain to victims of car accidents. don't ever let anyone judge you because you drool on your own shoes man.

>>50472659
>All classes expend resources with the same refresh rates
>Therefor all classes play exactly the same

>>50472602

can you lay out the hp gain rules? I never bothered learning 4e because noone I know had any interest in it- it was either stick with 3.5/pf which they already knew and liked, or move onto entirely new systems.

>>50472659
>if swinging a swor real hard a certain way lets you do something incredible and different from a normal swing, there is no in universe reason that you shouldnt be able to do the same thing a second time.


>I used this sword maneuver that takes some set-up, but hits them from a tricky angle to accomplish this effect. They saw me do it, and they won't fall for the same trick twice, so no point even trying again.

>I jumped 50 feet into the air and smacked him in the face, but that pulled a muscle in my leg. I can run around fine, but I might injure myself if I do it again without giving it a rest, so I won't.

>I used my sword to golf swing a rock at someone, the broken pebble bits getting into their eyes and blinding them. Sadly, that was the only rock that would have worked for this trick in the area, so I can't do that again.

>POCKET SAND, YOU'RE BLIND. And now I'm out of pocket sand.

Apply even a little bit of thought into it and it's not too difficult.

>>50472737
1st level HP is [Fixed Number] + Con Score
Per level gains are [smaller fixed number] + Con Mod.

>>50472717

instead of going insane defending 4e, why don't you, as a 4e player, explain to him the strengths of 4e and any changes he'd have to make to the formula to make it work for what he wants? Surely someone playing 4e, if it's good, would be the answer to them hating on 4e, yes? So surely helping him figure out how to run it for what he wants should be your goal?

You can keep arguing for all I care, but I feel like this thread is just going insanely off the rails of the topic.

>>50472717
you haven't addressed that you can run out of swinging a sword. running out of magic makes sense because in universe the magic system works that way. there is no explicable reason to not be able to do pure martial encounter powers all the time.

>>50472800
See
>>50472758

Alternatively, read *any* 4e book that contains Martial powers. The explanations can be found within.

>>50472758
>pulled a muscle in my leg
>can run around doing all other combat powers just fine

man i know this hobby breads a sedentary lifestyle, but have you ever stood up in your life?

>golf swinging a rock at someone with my sword is a thing i do every encounter

so 4e works great for a comedy anime game. nice to know.

I see it as a great system for a XCOM game.

>>50472800
This is easy and even better after explaining. It is the player power to influence in the narrative of the game. See the power not as a repeatable maneuver, but as a couple of events joining for the breach that led to that.

>>50472369
So does anyone else like the show?

>>50472737
In 4e, HP at level 1 is your CON score(not modifier, the whole score) plus a base amount depending on your class. 15 for Barbarians and Fighters, 10 for Wizards, 12 for Clerics, etc.

Every level after that, you gain an amount based on your class. Clerics gain 5 every level after, Fighters and Barbs get 6 Wizards get 4.

So a level 12 Barbarian with 20 CON would have (15+20)=35+(11x6=)66= 101 HP.
A level 6 Wizard with 10 CON would have 20+(5x4=)20 for 40 HP.

And so on and so forth. Your CON only affects your starting HP, it never gets factored in after that.

>>50472822
the explanations given by the books and the fans of the edition are fucking stupid.

>>50472776

that's interesting, but unless the fixed numbers are very small, I still see that very easily being higher than 3.5 health. Playing a fighter with 20 con in 3.5 I'd end up with 10.5*20=202 health, so based on what you said earlier if the first level hp of a fighter in 4e is 15, that'd make first level hp 35, 35+19*5=125, so the per level hp only has to be 77/19=4.02 so if it's 4 it'll be about the same, if it's five it'll be significantly higher than average, and if it's 6 it'll be ridiculous.

>>50472822
Well yeah,I could do that, but I can already tell he's never read a 4e book, so I don't see him starting now.

Plus he's just baiting and shitposting, so no point in arguing with him further anyways.

>>50472869
binge watching it today. loving it quite a bit. a few too many loli character designs for my taste, but way better than most death game, transported to another world, and trapped in a video game anime.

>>50472879
CON only gets factored into starting hit points. Every level after that is just a fixed number based on your class.

>>50472871

oh okay, other dude said to include con modifiers, that's what made it come out so much higher when I did the math in >>50472879

I guess that makes sense, but I'm not a fan of how... solid everything is. I really do like the randomness, it makes things feel more organic to me, I dunno.

>>50472895
except when 4e came out, my dm got given the core books as a birthday present. not wanting the gift to be a waste, we tried. by god did we try.

game does not flex well to accommodate creative thinking from the players. (remember kids, the skill challenges actively punish you for thinking outside the script.)

the fluff for martial powers doesn't gel at all. ive read those core books cover to cover several times and sunk too many fucking hours into trying to have fun playing it.

for fucks sake all i wanted was to talk about a game concept that i thought it was PERFECT for but there cant be one mention critical of any edition of any game on this board without people reflexively shitting into their own hands to have ammunition for the fight they always hope will happen.

>>50472924
It works well either way.

4e's more frontloaded with HP so that early levels aren't comically lethal, and then fixed HP afterwards so you always get a consistent amount of HP.

Honestly, would be pretty easy to add rolling for HP into 4e by doing it 3.5 style without gaining CON mod per level as well. Like, roll a d10 for Barb/Fighter HP, d8 for Cleric, and d6/d4 for Wizard. I think 4e does it the way it does because rolling a 1 for your HP roll always sucks.

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>>50472895

he posted looking for ideas regarding a campaign idea. Why don't you try dicussing that instead of getting in a fucking edition war. There's two options- either you're shitting up a thread someone started to discuss using 4e for a specific campaign idea, or you're biting the fucking bait. So are you stupid or just an asshole?

>>50472369

convert per-day and per-encounter powers into a set cooldown. It'll help model the higher level play of an MMO better and make immersion work better too. It'll take some thought to get those cooldowns right, but I'm willing to bet it'll work better than per encounter for the type of campaign you're looking at.

>>50472986

sure, but rolling a ten is fucking awesome. That's what makes rolling great- sometimes you get bad results, sometimes you get great ones, and when it comes to HP, it'll end up balancing out eventually anyways.

Anyways, I'd say, looking at the math you provided, I do have one problem- this actually ends up making wizards and such who have low con get way more HP than they would otherwise, while stiffing the fighters. That doesn't seem great.

>>50473000
might look at using the level of the abilities to create guidelines for number of rounds cooldown. might also factor in the level of the player, so as a power gets less useful the cooldown reduces a bit.

also, maybe thats the hook of the mmo that got people big into it; no mana resources, just cooldowns.

>>50473000
>he posted looking for ideas regarding a campaign idea.

>>50472369
>as a long-time hater of 4e
>compared the game to a tabletop MMO

No you weren't.

>>50473047

well A), it wasn't me, dipshit, but B)
>Well, is it just me, or would it actually be perfect for doing a "trapped in an mmo" campaign?

maybe get your 4e boner out of your ear for a minute and you'll be able to actual participate in conversation.

>>50473047
except i was just identifying myself as someone who hated the system. not "its objectively shit".

i also even specified that the copmparison came form people like me who didnt like it.

i didnt say "is an mmo ripoff" i said "i and others like me think its a shit mmo".

then people came in flinging shit. why do people devote such energy to being mad and pissed off? like, this is devoting energy to maintaining a state of mind that is physically unhealthy to be in.

>>50473041

I'd be more than a little tempted to add mana in, actually, I'm just not sure what scale you'd want to add it in at. You could add it at an MMO scale, or at an actually usable scale, but either way, I think it's important to have mana because, to be frank, MMO players are kind of in a rut. I don't think they'd jump on a game without mana.

Anyways, are you looking at this deathgame style or more like the image from OP? If the first, remember to remove resurrection items/abilities, if the latter, make them way cheaper and available way earlier.

>>50473150
id probably go with something closer to log horizon. as a gm i think it would force me to be more creative with problems and stakes. also death game mmo just gives me ptsd flashbacks to... that one series. so...

>>50472457
>heal themselves with the power of thought.
As opposed to carrying around a 6-pack of Wand of Cure Light Wounds?

I don't understand why it was so difficult to understand that the healing surge mechanic exists only to limit healing between rests and to use as an out-of-combat way to track damage. Did nobody actually play with GMs where failing Endurance or Athletics tests would just sap you of surges instead of dealing effectively combat damage?

And the MMO comparison for 4e never made any sense either, because it wasn't unique to 4e, it's just everybody being on the vancian spell casting model instead of only the spellcaster master race. If the reason that 4e is an MMO is because it has per-day and per-encounter abilities, you might as well say that 3.5 is an MMO except the martial classes get no abilities.

Was it that different classes had comparable attacks? That's true if you look only at the attacks, but each class is centered around their class feature, which makes any resulting ability used by them quite different.

So, really, I question the entire intent of this endeavor, but it doesn't sound like you're going to be convinced, so just go ahead and do whatever.

>>50473185
Look, man, it was generic as SAO was, you have nothing to get your ptsd panties in a twist about unless you were molested by your cousin. Or your best friend. Or your Dad's yes-man employee.

>>50473211
>I don't understand why it was so difficult to understand that the healing surge mechanic exists only to limit healing between rests and to use as an out-of-combat way to track damage.

To me this sounds like you're arguing FOR the "people somehow trapped in an MMO anime" thing.

>>50473245

look man maybe someone strapped him down and made him watch it, hannibal lecter style.

>>50473271

actually that's a good point. Healing surges don't really work in an MMO context. Anyone have any idea on how to make them suit an MMO?

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>>50473211
i dont have a problem with healing surges, really. conceivably theres only so many times you can knit the same muscles back together with magic in a day before you just start falling the fuck apart.

my problem is that fighters can regain hitpoints by getting in a good hit. not "you dont feel the effects of wounds" either; you literally get rid of damage permanently by being in a certain state of mind. and getting into that state of mind is a once per day thing apparently.

>>50473245
i was just joking about it because i really really didnt like the show. i mean, the original author admits its total shit.

PS: funnily enough i WAS molested by a cousin. no big deal. just, what a coincidence.

>>50473342
Then you don't understand damage.

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>>50473392

>you don't agree with my definition of damage that isn't in any way supported mechanically and is only given lipservice by the fluff, so therefore you don't understand it

>>50473392
well i went and read the bit on how healing works. just because the system has a retarded deliberately vague as fuck definition of hit points doesnt explain why i can only land that daily power once a day.

also if it represents "will to fight" then congratulations, you champion a system that tells me what my character is feeling after every sword swing. ill pick when my character gives up thanks.

>>50473342
>>50473439
>>50473458

Wounds, hit points, and damage are all heavily mechanical abstractions. 4e has four states of health: Feeling fine (HP/2+1 to max), Bloodied (1 to HP/2), Unconscious (0 to -HP/2), Stone Dead (less than -HP/2).

Since two of those are the character not doing anything, and the other two make very little difference, there's basically only two states: unconscious and conscious. Any amount of damage does not translate into actual physical effects. Any character can hit just as hard at 1 HP as they can at 30 HP, and their defenses don't differ.

The closest thing to "wounds" that you would "feel the effect" of would be save-end effects like being slowed or blind etc.

Hit points in D&D have NEVER EVER EVER IN ANY EDITION translated into physical damage. Why is this such a meme?

>>50473342
Because hit points aren't meat, and that's doubly true in 4e.

But if it makes you feel better, think of it this way. Rather than having a single pool of hit points like in 3.5, a 4e character has a lot of that health wrapped up in healing surges. Say they have 50 health and then another 100 wrapped up in healing surges. If they get clobbered by a giant for 50 damage, they'll get knocked out. However, it is was smaller hits, they have more time to rest and regain their footing between them

The alternative is 3.5, where you just have 150 flat health and the giant can't knock you out in one shot. Over the course of the day you'll take as much damage, but it won't take as much time and stamina to draw on.

The 4e approach makes it so every fight is life threatening, rather than simply being there to wear down the group's massive HP pool. If the enemies can kill the 50 health players in a few rounds, that's dangerous. If the players have 150 health all the time, they won't feel as threatened and won't need to stop and rest.

In many ways, 4e has a more realistic approach in that regard, as you actually need to take a break instead of just taking 30 axes to the face and fighting endlessly.

>>50473484
On that note, if you actually want to do 4e "MMO MODE" then consider expanding the "bloodied" mechanic into different boss phases. Some (most?) of the Solo-type enemies have special things that activate only when they get bloodied, so you can expand that to different levels of HP.

(Some PCs can do this too, but it's very minor.)

>>50473484
if its just an abstraction of "willingness to fight" then why the fuck cant i just give an anime speech and get it all back? if i get super fucking pissed, or yell believe it, my fucking muscles and bones dont snap back into position.

also then surely someone should be able to deal damage by just shit talking really hard. i mean, it stole that guys resolve and demoralizing him.

also note that being made magically fatigued doesn't drain hit points from you. being cursed to be unlucky doesn't take hit points either.

so this abstraction of luck, ability to reduce a blow into a minor wound, and resolve to fight is completely unaffected by things that fuck with your ability to turn aside blows, destroy your resolve to fight, and make you unlucky.

>>50473644
>why the fuck cant i just give an anime speech and get it all back?
Bards and Warlords do exactly that, as does any character who uses their second wind.

>>50473484
Because D&D is pure skub.

>>50473644
>then why the fuck cant i just give an anime speech and get it all back?
That's what Warlords do.
>someone should be able to deal damage by just shit talking really hard.
And that's what Bards do.

>>50473680
but they can run out. they can run out of inspiring talking. you can run out of doing yoga trances and remembering who you fight for.

YOU CAN RUN OUT OF A MENTAL STATE.

>>50473721
Trying to will your way through pain/fatigue is only going to work for so long.

>>50473493

so then why does magical healing use healing surges too? If healing surges existed as healing non-clerics could do, that'd be one thing, but why is "I HIT THAT DUDE! WOO!" mechanically identical to "By the power of god, I am healed!"

>>50473644

dude I don't even know 4e and I knew bards and warlords healed and dealt damage through raising and lowering morale. what were you thinking?

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>>50473721
>YOU CAN RUN OUT OF A MENTAL STATE.
You've very clearly never worked in retail, friend.

>>50473739
It's not - Clerics actually have several surgeless heals. That's one of their gimmicks as a leader.

>>50473721
Inspiring Word is twice per encounter. 4 times if they take the right feats. And that ignores all the other ways a warlord has to Rally someone.

They can keep up the inspiration all day, but at a certain point in a fight or a day the same speech or pep talk isn't going to ring as true.

>>50473740
i laughed.

>>50473739

also also, sure, HP isn't exclusively meatpoints, but if you hit half health, you're bloodied, but at low levels it'd be very easy to just burn two determination surges and be full healed, meaning that despite the fact that by mechanical definition you're injured, you just reached full health... and are no longer injured?

>>50473757

oh okay, that's neat.

I still don't like abstracting health away from being your actual physical health like that, but atleast it's self-consistent.

>>50473644
>if its just an abstraction of "willingness to fight"
No, it's a measure of "are you conscious or not." Where are you getting "willingness to fight" from? I didn't write that.

>my fucking muscles and bones dont snap back into position
At what point do they snap out of position? If a character's leg was broken I would probably give them the "slowed (until next extended rest)" condition or even "immobilized." Broken arm would be something like "cannot hold anything in arm (until next extended rest)" or whatever.

>being made magically fatigued
>being cursed to be unlucky
I'm confused as to what exactly you're talking about. I'm sure there's some sort of ability that can be magical that can be fluffed to steal luck or to make you fatigued.

If you're talking about fatigued, the Sleep spell would make someone Unconscious (Save Ends) with "Unconscious" imposing a ton of penalties like Helpless. So... being asleep in combat does make you easier to hit?

>>50473721
Is it really that hard to imagine that after being beaten to near-unconsciousness four times in a day someone might be at a loss for inspiring words?

>>50473739
>so then why does magical healing use healing surges too?

The same reason potions do. They let you draw on those natural reserves sooner and more easily The benefit is that the magic will enhance it and make it more efficient. That is, of course, ignoring all the smaller heals that don't use surges.

>>50473759
so it still comes down to a game system telling me when i give up. no matter my story, no matter whats on the line, the game tells me when i give up.

this also doesn't explain why only certain classes can give speeches that mean anything to anyone.

>>50473782
>I still don't like abstracting health away from being your actual physical health like that,
Well why the fuck are you playing D&D then? HP has always been a major abstraction.

>>50473793
That's why it's a roleplaying game? Some games tell you "your character is insane" or "your character simply cannot deal with the horrors they just witnessed."

Classes represent significant training. If you want to be able to give rousing speeches, spend a feat to multiclass to Warlord or Bard or something. It's that easy!

>>50473782
>I still don't like abstracting health away from being your actual physical health like that
One of the biggest reasons I don't like playing D&D anymore. The other reason is the loads of rules boy howdy.

>>50473786
i got he willingness to fight, ability to turn aside blows, and luck from the definition of healing from the 4e phb.

if its "are you conscious or not" then congratulations you agree with me that hp represents physical wellness. so we're back to fighters knitting cuts back together and refilling on blood through sheer determination.

>being beaten near unconscious 4 times in a day

which also means you've come back from the brink 4 times. at that point, you're there for a reason. at that point you've already gone through worse. at that point id be closer to thinking i was fucking invincible.

>>50473782
>I still don't like abstracting health away from being your actual physical health like that
D&D health has always been like that.

The thing is, in say 3.5, that hit points were supposed to be abstract, adaptable, and more then just meat points to explain how your 4 foot Dwarven Fighter took a hit from something the size of a small mountain and survived, or how you survived a Fireball that flash-melts gold.

The problem was all types of healing were explicitly magical wound-sealing healing. So hit points were always really loosely defined, but healing was specifically one thing, so people started assuming hit points were also that one thing.

4e's just the first time both sides of health(damage and healing) were equally loose.

>>50473840
>It is quite unreasonable to assume that as a character gains levels of ability in his or her class that a corresponding gain in actual ability to sustain physical damage takes place. It is preposterous to state such an assumption, for if we are to assume that a man is killed by a sword thrust which does 4 hit points of damage, we must similarly assume that a hero could, on the average, withstand five such thrusts before being slain! Why then the increase in hit points? Because these reflect both the actual physical ability of the character to withstand damage - as indicated by constitution bonuses- and a commensurate increase in such areas as skill in combat and similar life-or-death situations, the "sixth sense" which warns the individual of some otherwise unforeseen events, sheer luck, and the fantastic provisions of magical protections and/or divine protection. Therefore, constitution affects both actual ability to withstand physical punishment hit points (physique) and the immeasurable areas which involve the sixth sense and luck (fitness).
All 3E and 4E did was wrap morale into it on top of that because there were no longer rules for morale checks.

>>50473793
No, that's the part where HP as meat comes in. You've gotten through all the reserves you can muster at the moment, the warlord is out of inspiring things to say, you're all worn down and on the back foot. This is the point where things get dark and the heroes lose, because they were either fighting something far too strong, or they weren't able to overcome their foes.

Again, HP isn't entirely meat, it it also isn't entirely will. Getting hit with an axe doesn't lop off an arm, but it also doesn't just hurt your feelings.

Why is it so strange for the game to determine how much raw willpower you have? Or how long you can fight without getting totally exhausted?

>>50473873
agreed. 2e is better becasuse it has morale rules if you need them, and people cant stand around all day taking axe blows to the face without dying.

>>50473868
Thanks for explaining that, I finally understand why this is such a difficult concept for some people.

>>50473644
>f i get super fucking pissed, or yell believe it, my fucking muscles and bones dont snap back into position.

The problem is that you're taking an abstract, intentionally loosely defined system and trying to force it to be one specific thing.

Of course if you refuse to define a hit as anything less than getting your neck sliced open with blood comically spraying everywhere, you're going to have trouble when the rest of the abstractness of the system doesn't mesh well with it.

>>50473820

yes, it's an abstraction, but a different kind of abstraction.

That'd be like someone saying "I don't like advantage in 5e, it feels like too much of an artificial abstraction" and you saying "well then why do you play TTRPGs, rolling dice is an abstraction"

Something can be an abstraction that adds to the game, instead of an abstraction that takes away from it.

>>50473150
so how would you go about adding mana? if its an actual resource the player have to manage then we have to have ways to get it back, and create costs for everything with 30 different levels of powers.

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>>50473868

fireballs do not flash-melt gold. Where the fuck did you get that from? They are not like 1500 degrees Celsius, what the fuck man.

also, I don't know if you've actually read any western fantasy, the stuff D&D is based on, but it's fucking FULL of dudes surviving shit they reasonably shouldn't. IT happens all the time, because these people have superhuman constitution. Just because one part of fluff once mentions in passing that HP might not be just health, doesn't mean everyone has to play it that way, and the people who dislike 4e because they dislike being FORCED to play it that way are entirely justified in that dislike. Stop getting upset that other people like things you don't.

>>50473971

yeah that's the issue. It feels like something that you need, but it'd take a ton of work. There might be a way to create a generic cost algorithm based on the same attributes you use for determining cooldowns, but that would also mean any ability with the same cooldown would probably have the same cost and... well, that gets frustrating. It'd be nice to have, but might not be worth the effort.

>>50474003
>dislike 4e because they dislike being FORCED to play it
All the arguments I've ever heard over the last eight years about why 4e is so bad come from people who haven't played it because they very obviously don't have even a working grasp of the game mechanics. Nobody's forcing anybody, chill down.

>>50474003
>fireballs do not flash-melt gold. Where the fuck did you get that from?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireball.htm
>The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze.
>melt metals
>such as...gold

>>50474003
>Where the fuck did you get that from?

Old editions, where fireball specifically said it would flash melt gold, meaning lobbing it blindly into a room might fuse together that pile of gold coins into a really heavy and hard to move lump.

>>50474072
>>50474080
holy shit thats crazy. someone needs to put a stop to wizards. thats the casters, not the company. i mean them too...

>>50474068

wow, how bad at understanding words are you? jesus christ. I said "they disilike being forced to play it that way" meaning people don't like being forced to play HP as more luck and attitude than physical health, and that's why they don't like it. Christ you're dense.

>>50474080
>>50474072

Holy shit actually? I've never bothered reading the description on fireball I guess, but... damn, that's crazy.

Though it kinda supports the "unkillable supermen" side more than the "generic luck" side, because you wouldn't be able to be in the same hundred foot sphere as a fireball and not end up getting badly singed, and being within twenty feet would flash fry you. How exactly does luck and a good attitude help you survive that?

>>50472776
No?

1st level HP = [fixed number] + Con Score
Per level after 1st = [smaller fixed number]

Constitution doesn't change your HP gained per-level, but increasing your con score does still increase your total HP because it changes the 1st level value. That said, your con mod does increase your number of healing surges, and that's important

>>50474144
Sorry, I knew I confused where the con mod was involved after I hit post.

>>50473035
As someone who's tried both ways, I'd generally say the negative feeling of rolling a 1 is greater than the positive feeling of rolling a 10

>>50474138
Because D&D has never been realistic. This is why talking about the laws of physics in them is dumb.

>>50474179

depends on the player and room, but at that point I'm wondering why you're interested in rolling dice at all? I mean, surely the "negative feeling" of rolling a crit fail is worse than the "positive feeling" of rolling a crit success?

>>50474209

My side was never about realism though, it's about what feels better. I don't want 90% of my attacks to not do anything except make the enemy more discouraged, and I don't want my damage to be a bruised ego. If you're taking realism entirely off the table, it doesn't change my stance, and takes away the only reason that the moral/luck side of things was implemented in the first place.

>>50474259
>I don't want 90% of my attacks to not do anything except make the enemy more discouraged, and I don't want my damage to be a bruised ego.

I think you're taking the wrong thing from this argument.

It was never "hit points is always this way, not always that way."

It's "hit points are abstract and are whatever they need to be to make sense at the time."

Flavoring all hit point damage as severed limbs and anime-style fountain blood sprays is just as silly as every sword swing and spell cast just hurting people's feelings and egos.

>>50474259
No, I only really feel that way when rolling for stats or HP, you know, when a single dice roll decides what my character's going to look like (mechanically) for the rest of the game.

Skill checks, attack and damage rolls, all the little rolls you make during a game, they're fine

>>50474259
>I don't want 90% of my attacks to not do anything except make the enemy more discouraged

Except the majority of enemies don't have healing surges like players do. Most have one, at best, bit generally the NPCs are going down in actual sword slashes,
because they aren't the heroes.

>and I don't want my damage to be a bruised ego

It's a combination of factors, but if you really want your HP to be meat and nothing else, you can start with 10 HP and never increase. How else do you live through a direct hit from a longsword if not barely?

>>50472845
>4e works great for a comedy anime game

Isn't that what this thread is about?

>>50474259
Monsters don't heal easily in 4e, it's an anti-frustration measure, so the general suggestion of how to fluff HP during combat is that monsters get nicked and cut by glancing blows for most attacks, and then actually get wounded when they become "bloodied"

The same is somewhat true for player characters, except a player character can forcibly ignore those wounds via nonmagical healing. They'll still need to heal up over the course of the day and following night (recovering healing surges), but they can fight as if they were fully healthy

>>50474347
>How else do you live through a direct hit from a longsword if not barely?

By being a fucking hero?

>>50474365
sort of

>>50474347

like I've said several time, by being super-human. Just like litterally everything else in the game. How hard is that concept to understand?

>>50474372

and that explanation is bullshit and I don't like it. Go cut yourself on a knife and come back to me when it's fully healed. Now imagine a four inch wide one inch deep cut on your thigh. That's not closing up any time soon... unless you have magic. Even a minor wound incurred in combat will take a long time to heal.

>>50474394
And that's what 4e is specifically designed to model. Being a fucking hero, rather than a slab of meat.

>>50474417

a fucking hero takes a sword slash and says may I have another. He doesn't go "nya nya you missed" because he used his special technique to make him feel good and undid all the damage because he's just so EXCITED.

>>50474416
Walk me through this. What happens when the shirtless Barbarian gets struck by an Orc's axe? That is to say, assume the attack hit and rolled decently on damage, but not enough to kill the Barbarian?

>>50474436
Just let me know when you've actually read what people have actually said in this thread about hit points in 4e.

I'll wait

>>50474438

It struck him in the arm, cutting deeply, but not so deeply as to make it impossible for the barbarian to keep battling, and the barbarian pulls his arm free and strikes back with all the might of his rage.

This is fantasy. Heroes are superhuman. How hard is that to grasp? If you want to bring realism back into it, we can start discussing how in 4e being angry is a resource you can run out of. In combat. While people are hurting you and your friends.

>>50474464

I've read it, and it's dumb, and completely fails to explain how, exactly, you can both be hit by an attack and be able to fully heal afterwords without abstracting it away from being your actual physical health. Like I've said like a dozen times.

>>50474416
I'm not a hero though, I heal at normal human rate because I'm a normal human living in the real world, not a fantasy hero living in a fantastical world.

If you don't like PCs being larger-than-life heroes who can do impossible shit like that, 4e probably isn't for you anyway

>>50474480
Barbarians have always had daily limits on rages, this is nothing new.

And your approach can work just as fine in 4e. It's just instead the ability to ignore huge chunks of flesh being gouged from your body can be overwhelmed in a single fight, and refreshed by taking a five minute breather and wrapping some cloth on it.

>>50474550
But you don't refresh it, that healing you did to get back up to full health cost you a healing surge or two, and those aren't coming back until you take a long rest

>>50474480
>If you want to bring realism back into it, we can start discussing how in 4e being angry is a resource you can run out of. In combat. While people are hurting you and your friends.

Isn't that Pathfinder though?

4e rages last all encounter.

>>50474522

except- again- if you take realism away from the argument, then why isn't just 100% meat points acceptable? The only argument for using that system is a realism perspective.

>>50474550

yeah but 4e made it more pronounced, as did 3e. I hate that btw. Atleast in 2e it was measured in minutes, so you could kind of understand it making you exhausted, you were fighting full force for ten minutes, in 3.5 and 4e it's just kind of bizarre.

>>50474587

I was referencing that one attack ability, the watchacallit rage strike, where you put all your anger into an attack.

I feel like I could never DM 4e because there's so many abilities I'd feel like should have refreshes that don't. Like I said before, I don't like the way rage works in D&D, but at least in 2e/3.5 it's the only example, instead of the norm.

>>50474582
Yes, a 4e character with 50 health and 100 in surges who takes 120 health over the course of the day needs to rest to replenish it.

Just like how a 3.5 character with 150 health that takes 120 damage over the course of the day needs to rest to replenish it.

The only difference is that 3.5 makes their intended system of attrition really difficult with wands of cure light wounds being so cheap, while 4e actually cares about putting a limit on how much punishment you can take in one day.

>>50474614
You COULD say it's 100% meat points but... why?

You gain nothing from it and it stretches suspension of disbelief further than not doing that, there's no benefit to doing so

>>50472576
>"oh you hammered his shield real hard... he looks kind of like he doesn't want to be here"
I love this website

>>50474614
>why isn't just 100% meat points acceptable?

It is, it just doesn't mesh well once you take in account the fact that healing isn't 100% meat points.

It's the reverse problem 3.5 had really: Health is abstract, but healing is 100% magical wound-sealing.

That's why HP, damage, and healing in 4e should never "just" be one thing. It should be flexible and flavored to whatever makes sense for it work at the time. Like the Orc battleaxe thing.

Sure, MAYBE it left a gash in your arm. Or you might have parried it, and the hp loss reflects that you didn't take a direct hit, but it came close and you can't parry him all day, and he'll land a killing blow sooner or later.

>>50474680

but people like it, and find it stretches their disbelief less, so they use it, which is the point of this. I'm not saying the alternative isn't fine, I'm just saying I don't like it.

>>50474816

yeah, and that's part of why people don't like 4e. If they like meat points, then 4e mechanically conflicts with their fluff.

>>50472845
As someone who has done physical labor since leaving highschool, I can attest to being able to continue action with pulled muscles. Hell, one time I caught a falling 6x6 and couldn't seem to exert any force for the next week. I went to the doctor who told me I tore a hole in my abdominal wall and I had a hernia. Got rushed into surgery the next week when it went septic. I never would have even guessed I had it.

>>50474872
If they like meat points, D&D has always conflicted with the fluff. 4e is far from unique in this regard.

>>50474816
If you decide all damage is meat damage, then all healing is meat healing. I don't see a problem.

>>50474893

>3.5 the mechanics conflict with the stated fluff of abstracted health
>but D&D has always conflicted with meat point fluff

what

>>50474898

yeah but 4e healing contains a lot of things that don't make any sense as meat healing, and I don't think you can play the game functionally without it.

>>50474898
>If you decide all damage is meat damage, then all healing is meat healing.

If thats how you play it, then yes, thats fine.

The problem is when people fluff all damage is meat damage, then fluff healing as abstract as it's supposed to be, you get situations like this.

>>50473644
>if i get super fucking pissed, or yell believe it, my fucking muscles and bones dont snap back into position.

Where they define damage as one thing, define healing as something else, then gets pissed because it's not meshing well.

Though ideally, if you want meat healing and meat damage, you should ban Warlords and Bards.

Ideally ideally, if you want a game system with meat damage, play a different game system, since D&D's never been like that, except maybe when it was still Chainmail.

>>50474921
But pure meat points as health already doesn't make sense. Why is it okay for a fighter to shrug off 10 sword swings, but not for him to take 9 and suck in a deep breath so he can take the 10th?

>>50474929
Bards are spellcasters anyway.

>>50475031
Meat % points make sense and would defy warlord healing.

Flat healing values of pre-4e would still be kind of nonsense in that case.

>>50472369
> 4e is an MMO.

Apart from being role-playing games, there is little to no similarities.

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>>50472369
I like 4e. I also think it would work well for a "trapped in an MMO" game. I also know from experience that it works well for many other types of games. Have fun everyone.

>>50472369
If you want to do a "trapped in an mmo" campaign, why don't you use the actual Log Horizon RPG?

>>50475099
skalds were a martial heal
the fluff was that they were inspiring, just like the warlord

>>50473644
>if its just an abstraction of "willingness to fight" then why the fuck cant i just give an anime speech and get it all back?
That's a thing in 4e. Warlord healing.
> if i get super fucking pissed, or yell believe it, my fucking muscles and bones dont snap back into position.
That's not a thing in 4e. Hit-points are an abstract plot-shield for the protagonists and antagonists that they can spend to not get tellingly HIT, hence the term HIT-POINTS.
>also then surely someone should be able to deal damage by just shit talking really hard. i mean, it stole that guys resolve and demoralizing him.
That's a thing in 4e: Vicious Mockery
>also note that being made magically fatigued doesn't drain hit points from you. being cursed to be unlucky doesn't take hit points either.
There are multiple powers that do exactly that. Bard has a daily that does damage by making you unlucky. Warlock's "curse" is literally a damage feature. Psion, Warlock, Bard, and Wizard all have powers who's damage is represented in fluff by destroying an opponent's resolve to fight, as well as MANY monster attacks. So basically, the answer to "if HP is an abstraction in 4e, then why can't I do [X]" is "in 4e, you can do [X.] It is 3.Y in which you cannot, though I understand your confusion because it sounds like you didn't really try 4e more than what it took to realize it wasn't 3.Y."

>>50472369
>calls 4E an MMO becuase 'inspirational' healing is unrealistic
>considers 3.5 ' divine healing' believable

I bet you're American right?

>>50472576
>Going on the offensive, you put Monsieur de Douchebague in a disadvantageous position, his back is now against a fancy dining table, potentially letting you do a fatal blow!
>(enemy uses healing surge) But it's not the end yet! A mighty leap and Monsieur de Douchebague is on the top of the table, pointing his sword at you from above! "Foolish scoundrel!" - exclaims he - "I now have the high ground!"

If you are doing combat when two meatslabs are stabbing each other until one of them falls you're doing it wrong. Wrong. WROOOOOOOOOOONG.

>>50477445
That is how everyone should fluff second winds

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>>50477445
you, sir, are running combat VERY RIGHT!

>>50477301
Although skald aura kinda sucked, I really liked it because not only did it let you heal others by encouraging them, it let others in the aura do so to each other. Captures that band of bros/heroes feel really well.

Really too bad it didn1t go anywhere, that could have been a great "teamwork" aura.

>>50472425
this.

it's actually tabletop Final Fantasy Tactics.

>>50477391
Show me where OP said anything about 'inspirational healing being unrealistic.'

Show me.

I'll wait.

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i love how you can spot the people who started playing rpgs in 2008. this thread is amazing.

>>50480907
You mean 1993? It's not my fault you have autism.

>>50481124
calm down scarecrow. its not my fault you wee born without a brain. god did that. because he hates your retarded mother.

>>50473644
>if i get super fucking pissed, or yell believe it, my fucking muscles and bones dont snap back into position.
This statement just shows that you're refusing to understand it. The reasons that your muscles and bones don't "snap back into position" is because they never necessarily broke in the first place.

>>50477445
Oh man that's neat.

I hope I could write something that emulates that on a systemic level, meaning you don't actually have to be a great gm to have this effect. Probably a fool's errand anyway.

>>50477273
Have you ever played the Log Horizon RPG? That shit's still in an excel document

>>50481475
Yes. So what?

>>50481824
If you're gonna use a system in the first place instead of doing freeform/ruleslite, why use a half-finished system?

>>50481843
It's finished.
Do you seriously expect a PDF with professional layout from a free fan translation?

>>50472576
>yeah thats one way to do it, but then landing hits doesn't FEEL like anything. "oh you hammered his shield real hard... he looks kind of like he doesn't want to be here" doesn't have the same fun for my group.

I wish I had that Gygax quote to hand about how a fighter who has 4 times the hitpoints of a cow doesn't mean that you can cut 4 cow's worth of meat off his body before he dies.

Though it does tell me that your group likes fun in the anime style, where every swing of the sword is accompanied by a huge gout of blood until the combatants need to take a halftime break to put on rubber boots.

>>50482192
>not having hp represent the hopes and dreams of magical faeries means every hit is fluffed as losing 17 gallons of blood

nice false dichotomy there. you dont have to fluff hits as things other than physical injury in systems that aren't designed like padded sumo wrestlers wailing at each other with pillows. takea look at the average hp of 1st level characters and monsters and compare to the average damage done by at will powers [which have basically supplanted normal attack rolls].

HP use to be a precious thing. they didn't hand that shit out by the truck load.

>>50482148
Oh, I thought they were still working on it
Never mind, then

A Word doc would be nice tho, tbqh

4e combat is supposed to be cinematic, if you've ever seen a choreographed fight scene you know that bruce lee or captain america or whoever rarely use the same technique in a row, the action is fluid, always changing and above all, interesting to watch or imagine. As opposed to someone using their best ability over and over again, which is not very interesting to watch or play (like an mmo).

Yes at lower levels it seems like you should be able to do your special move all the time, but you can't because you're a heroic tier scrub who only has one or two tricks up their sleeve. But by the end of heroic tier you end up with so many things to do, by the time you've burnt all your encounter powers and maybe a daily the encounter is usually over.

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Oh /tg/. You'll never fin a more wretched hive of skub and autism.

>>50482349
>HP use to be a precious thing
Yes, in 2e and before.
When you started getting max hp at first level, and con mod to hp, it stopped being valuable, and the devaluing of hp damage as a means to threaten players finished it.

>>50483014
right? currently running a 2e game. very hit is a danger that changes the way you think about the given scenario.

>>50482950
4e is literally gaming communism.

Everyone has the same number of abilities on the same cooldowns so nobody feels left out. It's fucking pathetic. It's what happens when you try to pander to WoW and LoL playing SJW cucks.

You don't even have different classes in 4e. You just have a 4e character with a different "skin" or "kit".

It's a fucking cancerous idea and anyone who likes 4e needs to be flayed alive and dunked in a vat of salt.

>>50483381
Yes, because the hallmark of a good system is imbalance and players not enjoying themselves.

>>50483014
I have yet to have a 4e fight where somebody doesn't hit the floor (aside from two level 2 intro fights).

The reason people survive isn't the HP (at least in 4e), it's the death saving throws. In old editions, you hit 0, you a dead nigga.

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>>50483381
>4e was balanced, and 4e was terrible

>>50483441
Nobody enjoyed 4e except for LoL playing hipster faggots.

Drink bleach.

>waaaaah my fighter can't cast spells like the wizard or the cleric. this is so unbalanced ;_;

Kill yourself. Seriously, kill yourself. Look into it at least. It's really easy and painless I promise. It's like slipping into a warm bath.

>>50472979
If your DM cannot make a call on your "creative thinking", he's a shit DM.

"Can I use my intelligence on this move silently check, representing my architectural knowledge?"
"Sure."
"There are rafters in the roof, right? Can I use strength on this hide check to hoist myself up?"
"No, use climb for that."
"Can I apply my strength bonus to this search check representing me hauling the furniture around?"
"Sounds reasonable."

There, some creative ideas with backing up, two are approved one gets shot down.

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>>50473644
>then why the fuck cant i just give an anime speech and get it all back?
Make one. If it's a good one, I'll give you a free heal as an RP bonus.

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>>50483381
>A game released in 2008 panders to fans of a game released in 2009
This is the least stupidest thing in your entire rant and it's full retard.

>>50483583
>>50483632
the rule 0 falacy rears its ugly head.

"i can fix it"/"i can run it contrary to the rules" isn't an excuse for the game being shit. its just a nifty benefit of you being a good dm.

and believe me i change plenty whenever i run any rpg, to suit my tastes and the way my players like to play. but if i did that to FATAL that doesn't make FATAL itself any less garbage.

same goes for LolWow: the dragonbornening.

>>50483740
Creative thinking is literally you trying to invoke rule 0.

>>50483740
>contrary to the rules

4e has very lite out of combat rules specifically for this reason. It isn't like 3.5 where there's a set DC for every given task ever.

Who would have thought you might want to roleplay in a roleplaying game?

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>>50483740
Please get your insults in order. 4e is for T.O.T.s

Tactics Ogre Tabletoppers.

>>50483692
>>A game released in 2008 panders to fans of a game released in 2009
Once, I've seen elaborate article how Lord of The Rings is agitation against Soviet Union, with industrious hard working denizens of the East portrayed as the bad guys while bunch of free-spirited slackers from West are celebrated as heroes. On top of that the protagonist is bourgeois freeloader that never worked a day in his life!

>>50481206

>Explain to me why a trained warrior can only hit an opponent with his shield once per encounter. It makes no fucking sense you stupid MMO playing manchildren.

There are multiple shield at-wills. Tide of Iron, Shield Feint and Resolute Shield at the very least.

>>50483776
That's not the reason 4e is light on the out-of-combat rules and you know it.

4e is a tactical minis game with the D&D logo tagged on.

>>50483776
you'll note that 2e has relatively light and flexible non combat rules. however it still has actual support for non combat task resolution if you want it.

you want to talk 4e non combat?

have you never noticed they stripped out several non combat skills, and added combat uses to most that remained?

they didn't care about non combat. they designed a miniatures wargame with mmo ability usage.

>>50483803
That doesn't answer the question.

>>50483823
Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

>>50483832
Neither does that.

>>50483811
>however it still has actual support for non combat task resolution if you want it.

As does 4e.

>have you never noticed they stripped out several non combat skills, and added combat uses to most that remained?

What? They got rid of Use Rope? And made Hide and Move Silently one skill? And made it so Fighters didn't have to choose between Climb, Swim, and Jump?

Clearly they are the satan

>>50483832
he had to. he ran out of martial powers.

>>50483823

It sorta does. You asked why a trained fighter can only do it once an encounter and it was pointed out that it's at-will so he can do it as much as he wants.

>>50483844
This >>50483854

The question was wrong in the first place, only serving to prove that people who meme on 4e have never actually read the rules.

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>>50483811
>however it still has actual support for non combat task resolution if you want it.
>2e has that

>>50483854
Shield Bash is an enounter power you stupid cocksucker.

http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Shield_bash

4e cucks don't even know the rules for their own game.

>>50483847
uh yes, those thing were all mistakes.

combine those fuck ups with the total clusterfuck of just plain incorrect math that was the skill challenge system, and you get an edition that actively despises you for trying to use skills or do non combat hings in interesting ways. it wants you to get back on that fucking grid and measure that dps real closely.

oh and of course who ever has a gradient opf skill in anything? you either have +5 or you dont! oh and of course everyone everywhere gets better at everything every other level whether or not theyve ever even tried the skills in question.

oh man, i can FEEL that lush, full support of non combat gameplay.

oooooooh wait.

>>50483884

All the others are also hitting the other guy with the shield as much as shield bash is. You didn't ask 'Can only shield bash 1/encounter' you asked 'Can only hit an opponent with his shield 1/encounter'

>>50483884
http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Tide_of_iron

>>50483901
>just plain incorrect math that was the skill challenge system
You know that got fixed, right?

...why do I even bother replying to a troll who doesn't even take the effort to use shift?

>>50483901

>uh yes, those thing were all mistakes.

Why is moving Hide and Move Silently to the same skill a mistake? It was pointless busywork to have separate skills for sneaking and just made failure chance pointlessly higher (As you had to pass both to sneak but they only needed to pass one to find you)

>>50483901
>i can FEEL that lush, full support of non combat gameplay

That's the point. You shouldn't need that many rules for out of combat gameplay. You're playing a roleplaying game. Stop gazing at the numbers on your sheet and find a creative bone in your body.

>>50483875
>if i greentext it means i don't have to put forward any actual argument

ooh ouch. fuck man, you got me.

non weapon proficiencies you stupid greasy cocksucker.

>>50483902
So why is shield bash an enounter power then? What's the logic there?

Oh right, Kike Mearls and the designers couldn't think of any more retarded MMO powers for fighters to do once per encounter.

Who cares if it's pants on head retarded we just need to make it more like WoW where every class has the same number abilities.

Fucking end your life you cuck. I'd bet good money that you've had LoL installed on your computer at some point as well. Retards like you are killing this hobby.

(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)

>>50483901

And what did 2e have that gave it more non-combat stuff than 4e mechanically? 4e gave a simple but functional skill system rather than the mutated hydra that was 3.5 trying to make exact rules for every non-combat thing and fucking it all up.

>>50483926
>non weapon proficiencies you stupid greasy cocksucker.

You mean that thing universally derided as fucking awful?

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>>50483926
>non weapon proficiencies
>as an argument for non combat resolution
That system was awful. 2e is trash that only hipsters and grognards enjoy.

>>50483926
>non weapon proficiencies
>literally just a handful of skills

And this is somehow magically better than the 4e skill list how?

>>50483901
By RAW in 3e, a rogue can become very capable at any skill, even if he has never even acknowledged the subject, by spending all his skillpoints on it.

"Yeah I'm gonna add +10 to my Swim skill even though I've never touched water in my life."

>>50483935

>Oh right, Kike Mearls and the designers couldn't think of any more retarded MMO powers for fighters to do once per encounter.

Have you...ever played an MMO? I can't think of too many MMOs where you are limited to 1/battle for any ability. The closest is maybe 5 min cooldown abilities but even then a lot of raid bosses go on long enough to get multiple uses of it. MMO characters tend to spam abilities a damn lot rather than being limited use.

>>50483920
except most people have literally never considered what those skills originally were.

hide used to be hide in shadows, which was for remaining unseen while actually hiding n an environment.

move silently is for moving about without making noise to alert others.

you only ever have to use both if you are trying to move around completely undetected in a room with awake and alert enemies.

you have to actively TRY to need to roll both skills.

As always, there's a bizarre disconnect between people who are okay with "gamist" elements in 3.5 but not the specific gamist elements of 4E who point to the elements BEING gamist as the problem, instead of any actual mechanical criticism of their implementation in game. And believe me there's plenty of MECHANICAL shittalk to make about 4E as someone who's played and enjoyed it.

It's fine when a Bard can only entrance people with song for a limited amount of rounds per day in 3.x It's fine when a Barbarian has a hard cap on rounds of raging per day. It's fine when a Paladin only has so many Smites per day. It's fine! These heavily gamist elements are fine.

But when the Fighter can only hit hard enough to triple his weapon damage once, and then has to fall back on his other myriad at-will powers that still give him a broad swathe of options round to round that don't run out, shield bashing and knockdowns and multihits and what have you, it's the end of the damn world.

>>50483923
role playing rules are tools. i like to have the fucking option. there was no reason to deliberately strip out support for easily more than half the play of any rpg.

fuck, if you have to, mark it all with great big blue "OPTIONAL" boxes. a game that HAS those options if people want them is better than one that just ditches non combat to become a fucking forum rp.

>>50483935
Tide of Iron only pushes, and won't work on very large targets.

Shield bash can knock prone, is more accurate, and can work on targets of all sizes.

Essentially, it has more effort placed into it than the typical Tide of Iron shieldbash.

>>50483981
You're too casual to roleplay, aren't you?

What you going to say next? A flimsy wooden door at Lv10 is harder to kick down than the same door at Lv1?

>>50483981

>i like to have the fucking option. there was no reason to deliberately strip out support for easily more than half the play of any rpg.

But 4e still has it's skill system and it's a lot more functional than 3.5s ever was where skills were 90% just replaced with spells or too narrow to ever be used.

>>50483959
adidng skill points is indicating that you have practised, studied or otherwise actually learned the skill.

in 4e you just add half your level to fucking every skill. you get better against your own will. universally. at the same rate.

>>50484001
The skill challenge system exists when you want the thing to be an actual challenge, and its sliding scale of easy/normal/hard/etc by level are a guideline for what you should put the difficulty for picking a lock that challenges a rogue of that caliber.

If you have a level 20 rogue and the lock you have put on a door is of the "I bought it at office depot for 5 bucks" caliber, he shouldn't have to roll. That kind of a lock is a foregone conclusion for a Rogue like him.

If you bring the skill challenge system out, it's for an actual challenge.

For the flimsy wooden door, the solution is...you don't need to roll to kick it down. It's flimsy. You're strong as all hell. It's gonna go down. If you want your level 20 barbarian to roll for kicking down a door, it should be for a door that he isn't 100% for sure going to be able to kick down.

And of course the caveat of only roll if failure would be interesting.

>>50483981
So, you would rather have something 3.5 style where there's mountains and mountains of rules detailing what you can and can't do with skills, resulting in players or the dm insisting on halting play and looking it up, rather than 4e, where you have skill points, a rough idea of what the DC should be depending on how challenging something is, and that is all you really need.

I don't need a page telling me the exact DC to climb a greased ladder at sunset while slightly fatigued. I just need the DM to gauge if that'd be something easy or hard for my character and give a decent DC.

>>50483965
the hard cap on rounds for rage and bards was dumb. but thats a pathfinder exclusive thing, so no wonder its terrible.

>>50484001
>"please dont detract from my opinions; im not strong willed enough to maintain them on my own"
>i know! I'll accuse him of being a casual!

im still waiting for your argument against having a wider variety of tools to work with if you want them.

>>50483965
Shhh... Let them continue their pissing match.
Your logical observations only keep them from the last bit of twisted enjoyment they have in their lives.

>>50484011
OH YEAH I SURE DID PRACTICE SWIMMING AROUND IN THE FUCKING DESERT WE'VE BEEN IN FOR THE PAST MONTH

>>50484045
>but thats a pathfinder exclusive thing, so no wonder its terrible.

Yes, because the 3.5 version was battles/day

>>50484053
honestly at that point the rogue is just hamstringing himself by putting points into shit he cant possibly need to use. itll come back to rape him in the ass pretty quickly.

>>50484045
>im still waiting for your argument against having a wider variety of tools to work with if you want them.

QUALITY > QUANTITY
STREAMLINED > CLUSTERFUCK
SIMPLE AND FLEXIBLE > COMPLEX AND RIGID

>>50484045
>if you want them.

Weren't you the one just complaining about 4e players ignoring skill challenge rules and it not being fair to judge a game by ignoring the rules?

Having a wider variety of tools is a detriment in that case if you're enforcing people to use all of them. I would much rather go through a RAW 4e skill challenge than try and use the 3.5 skill system perfectly by RAW.

4e skills are about on par with 2e skills in terms of complexity, it just has a shorter list with broader skills so it's easier to be competent at multiple things, because you're a hero.

>>50484073
Nah, the thing that'll come to bit him in the ass is playing a Rogue.

>>50483960
It's a cooldown you mouthbreathing retard. If you can't see the parallel then you're beyond help.

There are abilities in WoW like Ice Block that are 5 minute cooldown meaning you won't be using them more than once in a fight.

>>50483983
I understand the mechanical difference. The point I'm making is that they included gay shit like that to ensure that every single class has exaclty the same number of "powers" just like in an MMO.

Get that garbage out of D&D. I'm so glad they fixed their mistakes with 5e.

>>50484107
And your cooldowns exist in 3.x as well. Barbarians. Druids. Bards. Paladins. Psions. If I was really patient I'd go onto the 3.5 SRD and track down every martial/martial hybrid class with a power that said X used/Day and write them out here.

>>50484107
>The point I'm making is that they included gay shit like that to ensure that every single class has exaclty the same number of "powers" just like in an MMO.

Essentials. Psionics.

Fuck you.

>>50484082
you think 4e has a higher quality skill system? oh man... i don't know what to say. i cant fix what's wrong with you. im not god. and yes im saying your opinion is wrong.

>>50484085
i was arguing with a few different people on this one. if you're of the "i just wanna role play it free-form" persuasion, then how are you harmed by a game HAVING a robust skills system? you CAN ignore it if you want.

I don't LIKE randomly altering the rules from a game book because event he best players and gm will create inconsistencies and problems by doing do. its usually better to find a game that works better for what you want in the first place.

side note: if people think that non combat should just be free-form role playing all the time, why shouldn't combat be that way too? what are you doing with a game that requires dice and has mechanics? justy fucking tell stories together at that point.

>>50484107

>It's a cooldown you mouthbreathing retard. If you can't see the parallel then you're beyond help.

Except it's not a cooldown. 4e encounter powers only refresh if you have 5 mins of rest. It doesn't matter how many rounds or how long you have, encounter powers won't refresh with time. Only with rest.

>>50484139
>you think 4e has a higher quality skill system? oh man... i don't know what to say. i cant fix what's wrong with you. im not god. and yes im saying your opinion is wrong.

Why is the other skill system better then?

>>50484107
>I'm so glad they fixed their mistakes with 5e.

I'm pretty sure the only class that doesn't have any encounter/daily powers is the champion fighter in 5e.

>>50484177
Nope, Champion Fighter still gets Action Surge and Second wind like all Fighters do.

>>50484177
Derp, it has action surge.

Okay maybe Rogue then? I think rogue doesn't have any.

>>50484157
Because he said so, obviously. It certainly isn't minute differences that would only matter to an autist.

>>50484107
>5e fixed anything

oh wow...

let me put it in terms you can understand... 5e started life with permanent disadvantage.

>>50484187
Rogue is the closest I think, though even it can get some with Arcane Trickster, and Assassin's surprise feature isn't exactly more than once per fight.

>>50484107
>There are abilities in WoW like Ice Block that are 5 minute cooldown meaning you won't be using them more than once in a fight.

No, boss fights can and do go on for more than 5 minutes at the upper end. And the majority of fights against smaller enemies won't be worth using those abilities.

Honestly, I don't think you've played WoW or 4e before.

>>50484139
Because by nature it's easier to design a complex game system with depth and decision-making around combat than any other scenario, and most systems that actually create a puzzle to solve around non-combat do so by modeling non-combat scenarios like combat (Exalted with Social Combat, Wulin with how Priests work with curses, Scholars make Predictions, Doctors influence the body, etc)

It's the big reason why combat is more attractive to people to play than social, beyond combat being innately cool and exciting. Rolling dice is often more fun when you had to make tactical decisions, weigh the odds, etc.

A Rogue picking a lock only has so much depth possible within the system. You fail, you pass, or you don't. Now, games like Shadowrun expanded a noncombat element (Hacking) so vastly that it's an entire system within the system; Hacking's an important setting and genre element, so it's got as much depth as combat, whereas climbing a cliff doesn't.

nWoD puts a big value, genre wise and game wise, on investigation and socializing. That's why they complicated their social system with the Doors mechanic and various back and forth tools, and gave you a gamey system for solving a mystery using character skills instead of player skills. But it didn't do so for computer hacking. Or fixing a car.

DnD will always be one of the systems that puts way more weight on combat and very little weight on noncombat, mechanically. That's just how it rolls. And certain groups like to run DnD even more rules light on the noncombat, or not use rules at all outside combat. And that's their prerogative, doesn't make their table any better or worse than yours.

>>50484231
appreciate the civil and well written out answer. classiest post in the thread.

>>50484252
>classiest post in the thread
Means nothing from someone who can't capitalize.

>>50484302
lurk 1 year before posting

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>>50484302
Pettiest post in the thread.

>>50483935
>(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
IN b4 virt posts this on his tumblr

>>50484328
Put some effort in mate.

..

Then again, why bother, it seems like people are biting either way.

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>>50484390
>people are biting either way

>>50483381
Thanks virt

>>50483808
>D&D is a tactical minis game with the D&D logo tagged on.

FTFY

>>50484039
Of course, that's the great irony with people complaining about how 4e removed "roleplay" options.

9 times out of 10, when they say they lost a lot of roleplay options, they mean they lost a lot of charts and extraneous rules that they could roll dice on to avoid having to roleplay.

>>50484774

Usually it means "I can't get out of this immediate situation by using one of the 50 spells I know to bullshit a reason/abuse the skill system to the point of absurdity".

And this is partially due to slack jaw DM's who saw "encounter" power and didn't know how to have those translate into non-combat situations so if player A wants to use an encounter ability to fly the DM goes "no" because he assumes that "encounter" means "combat" and not what it literally says.

>>50484802

Also sometimes you got the crazies who were legitimately upset that they could no longer be good at moving silently but shit at actually hiding and those people I dunno what to say to.

>>50484802
Yeah. I think the biggest thing is that 4e drew back the curtain and made it very clear to everyone how everything was working, with the expectation that in play, the group and the DM would put the curtain back in place by roleplaying and improvising.

Instead, you get 3.5 DMs and players who won't burn down a door with fire magic because it no longer says it lights objects on fire, and it isn't a utility power so you can't use it out of a fight.

>>50484774
>>50484802
>>50484829
>>50484881

Legitimate circle jerk or same-posting? YOU be the judge!

Hey 4e lovers, under your super awesome and totally great 4e skills system, lets say I want to have basic training in a skill without being a maxed out expert in it?

Take proficiency for the same +5 to checks? Or do i just have the same generic +1/2 lvl bonus that i get to all skills?

Real nice skills system you got there.

Just keep advancing in levels, you reach "basic proficiency" by human standards in every skill by around 6-10.

>>50485007
That bonus is a big fucking deal when the DCs start scaling.

>>50485039
yes but i'm still asking how do i do something between "professionally trained full skill" and "no experience whatsoever".

>>50485007

>Hey 4e lovers, under your super awesome and totally great 4e skills system, lets say I want to have basic training in a skill without being a maxed out expert in it?

Take skill training but don't take skill focus? I mean, you have to take a feat for 'Super focus a skill'

>>50485007

> lets say I want to have basic training in a skill without being a maxed out expert in it?

Why?

>>50485007
Could take a background or feat that gives a smaller bonus instead of the +5, so you're more skilled than most people, but still worse than someone who's actually trained in doing it.

There's plenty of feats and backgrounds that just give +1-2 to a skill.

>>50485007
>>50485052

>I want to be good at this skill, but like not too good, but also not just average, just a little bit better, like middling

Okay, well, take skill training in a skill you don't get a stat bonus for, and then don't take skill focus and other skill buffing stuff.

That should about do the trick.

>>50485007
You take the +5 to the skill, and then don't take Skill Focus to become an expert at that skill.

If you want to just be able to spread yourself really thin and get a small bonus to everything, play a Bard.

>>50484881
The thing is twofold there: when 4e drew back the mechanical curtain, it revealed the designers' lack of mechanical rigor (NADs falling behind even on the magic item treadmill, the HP/damage discrepancy so bad they needed an entire MM to try and correct it, nerfing the Stat swap Basic Attack feat while not giving every class some sort of mechanical parity basic to make up for it, Essential classes and Classic classes crossing over to fuck the entire power usage structure, the Magic Item Treadmill in general).

Second, there wasn't much of a mechanistic base for powers interacting with the world outside of making shit up. And while "make shit up" is a founding pillar of our hobby, it's not something you need a system to do. Say what you will about the unbridled autism of 3.X, but it had the guts of the system on display when it came to interacting with the world. Those guts had deeply offensive results (hey Diplomacy) but they were there.

>>50485183

>And while "make shit up" is a founding pillar of our hobby, it's not something you need a system to do.

But 4e didn't have a system there and 3.5 did?

Like... I dunno man I'd rather have NOTHING and have to ad-lib than have a WHOLE BUNCHA SHIT that's just gonna make me ad-lib anyway. At least the former lets you save space and cut out the middleman and prevent the player from having a long winded argument about what the book says.

>>50485183
>And while "make shit up" is a founding pillar of our hobby, it's not something you need a system to do.

Exactly, which is why 4e focused on the parts of the system that needed more crunch, the combat.

NADs kept up fine if you bought necklaces. The HP/damage issues in the first monster manuals make things slower, but they don't break the game.

Essentials was entirely the result of them trying to appeal to people like you.

And the magic item treadmill has been around for a long while, and 4e had an alternative to it with inherent bonuses.

>>50485183
I'd be quite happy if people were complaining about that instead of "lol communist tabletop mmo wow moba for babies".

>Say what you will about the unbridled autism of 3.X, but it had the guts of the system on display when it came to interacting with the world.

What mechanical base do you need? I mean, the only thing I can think of is damage vs objects not being detailed (I think), but otherwise it feels quite straightforward.

I think there was also some DM guideline about letting powers add bonuses to skills (+2 if encounter, +5 if daily, and some other twists) if it makes sense.

>>50472467
Do you put in a new serial number every time you issue one of these, or are you a dirty counterfeiter, anon?

>>50485249
It is better to have something you don't need than need something you don't have. 3.X fans felt they needed the charts and shit, then got upset those weren't there outside of level scaling DCs.

>>50485267
Getting defensive over someone pointing out flaws in a system that were accepted as flaws by the community in its heyday makes you look upset.

NADs did not keep up if you had necklaces, since the design team had to release two separate sets of patch feats for NADs over the system's life even with those necklaces in the game.

The HP/damage issues in MMs 1 and 2 were the major complaint of the system even from people who enjoyed the game. The piles of HP monsters had, combined with the prevalence of things that ended a fight without removing HP (Orbizards, Brand Clerics, et.al) made combats a 3.X style forgone conclusion without the speed that Rocket Launcher Tag provided if you optimized, or a painful At-will slog if you didn't.

Also, a great deal of errata had its impetus in the community on the 4e boards, so even if you personally think it wasn't enough to break the game, enough people did that there was a systematic change.

Inherent bonuses have been around for a while, didn't become system standard (even though the game math was designed with those items innate), and item rarities, the final system used, is practically the polar opposite.

The magic item treadmill was widely seen as a bad thing by 3.X's death, but the designers doubled down on it for 4e

>>50485276
General interaction between combat and non-combat round states (for charm/immobilized powers, mostly) and damage descriptor interaction outside of combat. Stuff like how much Fire damage does it take to set wood on fire? Stone? Metal? Can Fire damage start fires? Can Radiant? Can Cold damage suppress a fire? Can you spoil crops with Necrotic? Does Psychic damage have a calling card?

>>50485709
>General interaction between combat and non-combat round states (for charm/immobilized powers, mostly)

Isn't a round still 6 seconds? Or you mean like saves? I think if you use them on things that can't fight back anyway (i.e. not an encounter) you can do whatever, since you are just that much stronger.

> Stuff like how much Fire damage does it take to set wood on fire? Stone? Metal?

You decide on how hard destroying that thing would be at their level, set the appropriate difficulty, then let him roll arcana with bonuses depending on the spell used (or religion for divine or athletics if it's like an STR sorc or something).

> Can Cold damage suppress a fire? Can you spoil crops with Necrotic? Does Psychic damage have a calling card?

Same as above. You decide on the difficulty for the task at hand, then roll arcana with a bonus.

>>50485276
im growing more convinced that the whole "communist game" shrieking thing was either legitimately virt or some sort of false flag to give the 4e faggots something to attack.

>>50484375
It's not him though.

>>50488140
I'll bet you his real name that it's him.

>>50488164
It's not.

>>50487424
He's right though.

4e is garbage. The powers system is MMO tier shit that has no place in D&D.

>>50488276
How can you be so certain?

>>50485183
You mixed complaints about early 4e and complaints about late 4e in there, and those two problems come from significantly different sources

The weak NADs and the HP-sponge problems came in early because the system was new, and while they didn't make the game unplayable or broken, they were indeed annoying. BUT they got fixed (although the NAD fix was a feat, and feat taxes work, but are a pain in the butt).

The Essentials problems on the other hand (melee training nerf, all the problems of how essentials and classic classes interact) occured because Mike Mearls wanted to make 4e work more like 3.5, and lo and behold, it was a fucking stupid idea

Oh, and inherent bonuses fixed the magic item treadmill (for everyone except sorcerers, blaster wizards and warlocks)

>>50485709
>It is better to have something you don't need than need something you don't have.
Unless what you're given is shit, and the community is a bunch of whiny babies who think that if the GM deviates at all from the RAW that they spent years memorizing, they are being cheated. Then, nothing is literally preferable.

>>50485183
>Say what you will about the unbridled autism of 3.X, but it had the guts of the system on display when it came to interacting with the world.
But, at its core it really didn't if you are mostly concerned with how the world interacts with players, rather than the world functioning as a self-contained mathematical model for universe building. What was actually effective, as a player, was not only buried within layers of unnessecary filler-crunch, but intentionally obfuscated to the point that an entire community came into being who's sole purpose was sifting through the haystack to find the proverbial needle.

>>50472369
Yeah, no one at any point in time considered this at all. You're the first genius who actually articulated this idea.

>>50472369
You could solve cancer with that genius. Damn, son.

>>50472369
Are you an actual genius?

>>50489715
>>50489784
>>50489862
i generally leave 4e out of sight and out of mind; just like most crimes against humanity.

only thought of it again because i was watching log horizon.

not like i put a lot of effort into this post. i mean i wish i had; apparently i touched a nerve with some people.

>>50490019
You might want to get professional help. Actually please do.

>>50489715
>>50489784
>>50489862
what is wrong with you?

>>50490019
Just because it isn't your cup of tea doesn't make it a crime against humanity, it's a perfectly functional system that accomplishes what it sets out to do

>>50490071
What. His was the first genius idea and should be applauded.

>>50490019
>crime against humanity
Are you alright mentally? Where did the bad scary game touch you?

>>50472369
Have you even played a game of 4e or are you talking out of your ass?

>>50490099
it grabbed my thac0

>>50490274
ive played a fair bit of 4e. then later ive spent quite a few hours trying to do some basic work to run it myself, and every second i spent with the thing i felt like i was fighting it on every aspect.

>>50473047
>>50473392
>>50473493
>>50473820
>>50473907

The breadth and variety of idiots in this thread is truly breathtaking.

>>50490519
What were you doing? It's one of the easiest games to DM. Are you a retard?

How did you find playing it?

>>50491095
If you think the game is a crime against humanity and is like a tabletop mmo you are a literal retard and autist.

>>50491095
>The breadth and variety of idiots in this thread is truly breathtaking.
You're right about that, but probably not for the reasons you think.

>>50472369
Dungeonworld sounds like it'd be up your alley.

>>50490519 #
You being a shit DM sounds like it's irrespective of system.
Git gud, stop being shit and stop letting the system rekt you.

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>>50472659

>>50481158
Irony.

>>50483852
I think in this case it would be MARITAL powers.

>>50490519
>ater ive spent quite a few hours trying to do some basic work to run it myself, and every second i spent with the thing i felt like i was fighting it on every aspect.
Really? I can fully understand why a player might not enjoy it (though I respectfully disagree,) but as a DM, it's been nothing but a fantastic dream. You do understand that it's easy to refluff a monster into whatever you want, right?

>>50484053
Mirages are a hell of a drug.

Nobody's posted this the entire thread, probably because it's a shit idea, but what the hell, why not:
Have martial skills spend HP. Depending on the effectiveness, have it spend more HP per use. This should accurately depict muscular wear and tear, without creating any "unfair" limitations to the user.
This also makes sense with the whole caster/martial dichotomy; the martial requires strength in body, so his skills would wear down a lesser man attempting them, while a caster requires strength of mind.

Personal opinion: separating strength of body and mind is stupid. A true warrior combines them both in order to overcome any challenge.

>>50488314
Because he is virt!

>>50472369
Do you hate fun? Sounds like you hate fun.

>>50492312
Then casters should get worse and worse at casting, as it taxed their mind or spirit, depending on source of power.
Hell, a lot of rituals, and all martial practices burn a healing surge to use, so your idea is /kinda/ implemented, just in the worst way they could.

>>50489598
Don't play with optimizes. 4e is like 70% people who want their class' respective numbers to go up, and the other 30% is mostly people who want to just have fun with some dice, and be big god damned heroes

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>>50494403
Hilarious and origional!

>>50491503
I'm a fine dm. the game sucks. I COULD force the shit game into working, the same way that I could get a workable game out of Racial Holy War if I had to. There's no reason for me to waste my time on shit systems when there are better ones.

>>50491483
God no. Fuck dungeon world in the ass. Not even an RPG.

>>50491207
>Not familiar with comedic hyperbole
>Accuses others of autism

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This thread is proof we need to gas the 4rries.

>>50495954
What in your wise and esteemable opinion is a good game?

If you hate 4e so much, why did you waste time in creating a thread for it? Do you literally have nothing better to do with your time.

>>50496032
well i had a concept for a fucking campaign that i might consider using 4e for and i wanted to know what people thought. from the second reply on it became a shitshow.

You'll note in my origional post that I merely said that *I* hated 4e, not that it was objectively bad. At this point though I'm done trying to spare your retarded feelings. 4e is shit and you are an idiot for liking it. You know why the game sucks, deep down, and are in denial.

Examples of non-horrible games:

D&D 2e, D&D 3e[not 3.x], Stars Without Number, Supers Revised Edition, Sengoku, OVA, West End Games d6 and Mini6 Open, Small Towns

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>>50496094
>Examples of non-horrible games:
>D&D 2e, D&D 3e

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>>50496094

>>50496094
>OVA
>D&D 3e
>not horrible games

Oh god. Just keep playing them.

>>50496094
I forgot to add GURPS, though thats almost more like a toolbox for creating the exact RPG you want than an RPG on its own.

>>50496180
hey if you're actually TRYING to get swingy weeb bullshit it does that pretty well. It's not for everything; literally just 1 niche.

>>50496111
both excellent games if you don't play them like an idiot. challenge rating is a guideline; not a rule, and dont let the party break to rest every single time the wizard casts something and it stops being horribly broken.

the players ruined 3e, not the writers. same goes for 2e. if you think 2e is bad, you've never played it.

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>>50496218
>the players ruined 3e, not the writers
>the ivory tower system was intentionally written into 3e
>the same system its creator expressly regarded as a mistake after it was implemented

>>50496252
If you don't care about being an autistic powergamer its a fine fucking system.

>>50496283
You are an autistic powergamer. Liking those games. You have legitimate bad taste.

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>>50496283
>playing a fighter against most monsters over CR10
>the entire skill system as-is
>the feat trees that require you to be a level above what most games reach for you to get to do fun stuff
>it's heavily penalized even if you do
>but by then the wizard can fucking stop time

>>50482148
I don't think it was fully translated. The basic system yes, but there was only the lowest level items and not all the abilities either.

The site for the translation has been completely dead for months though, and I don't mean "no activity"

Where's the translation at nowadays, if it's been worked on since 2 years ago?

>>50496313
Whatever. I grabbed what has been translated. it doesn't seem like anything special.

>>50496094
>>50496111
>>50496180

So we can all agree that Sengoku is an objectively great fucking game? Good. Thread over. Everything resolved.

>>50495954
>>50496094
What has actually happened is that you're completely shit as a GM, doubly so because 4e is easy to GM for and now you feel threatened because it emasculated you of however little you had.

The game works as well as any game, but it can't prevent shit, ie you from being shit. Get good and don't let the system keeping your ass, because it completely sounds like that happened.

>>50495954
You should become a comedian, but make sure the audience is laughing with you.

>>50472467
worst response ever to a legitimate problem he pointed out

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and here I thought this thread might have interesting or productive discussion and people organizing isekai games.

Silly me, it's just edition wars

>>50496574
I'm so sorry anon. I never asked for this.

>>50496574
The OP failed to induce legitimate discussion in his opening post. How can you not know this?

>>50496528
Project harder, if that's possible.

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>>50496574

I play in an isekai game as a /pfg/ kitsuneposter who filled out a kitsune-themed isekai CYOA with such force of will that he was transplanted into the body of a crossdressing shota trap foxboy prince(ss) of a food-themed empire.

Ask me anything.

>>50496587
tfw will never that guy who plays heal sluts and accidentally flipped genders when getting sucked into the game
tfw will never accept demonic pacts to respec into DPS because healing is actually abhorrent if you aren't being bullied and don't need speedy queues

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>>50496611
He's right you know.

>>50496611
It is legitimately sounding like it's the case. You trying this desperately to deny is not helping.
Get. Good. And stop letting a mere game kick you like the dropkick you are.

>>50472369
Yea, I did this. It works pretty damn well. I don't have any issues with 4e and I don't care who wants to argue about it, but that was a fun campaign.

>>50496611
It's not the system's fault you're shit.

For isekai games, players aught to roleplay as a distinct "real world" character that was sucked into the other world, right?

>>50496574
It's the same guy who keeps making anti-4e threads en masse every morning. Just ignore any 4e thread that gets made before school hours or during school-day breaks.

What the actual shit is isekai?

>>50495954
Question, what are your thoughts on 5e DnD?

>>50496709
The japanese term for portal fantasy

>>50496696
But you have to be over 18 to use this site.

Guess he's getting the attention he wants.

>>50496714
Thanks dude.

>>50496710
Does he even know what's actually good?

>>50496718
That has never stopped any child from accessing 4chan because it makes them cool and edgy to be a part of the super leet hacker group Anonymous.

>>50496696

Honestly I'm not that guy. I just threw together the op a little to sloppily and people got buttmad. If I wanted a 4e hate thread I'd be more like that one faggot who decided to hat eon 4e and Lloyd post in the same opening.

>>50496744
Topkek.

>>50496744
Actually make sense.

>>50496744
Fair enough. I don't much like 4e either, but I don't hate it. It has some problems like HP bloat, fights going on way too long, things that a good DM can fix, but they're still issues. I'd rather play 4e than 3.5 or 3e, though. If I had to choose.

>>50496710
not great. improvement over 4e. Most of my complaints from the playtest were ignored compeltely.

not a fan of disadvantage, preferring instead to just have bonuses and penalties for various conditional situations.

One of my players swears a game of 5e he played was the worst game experience he's had, but I'm pretty sure that was mostly up to the GM being a legitimately bad fucking GM (he was a friend of ours who I'd seen run games before).

>>50496765
So, what you're getting is just hearsay and you haven't actually played or looked at it.
5e is better than 3e.

Can we just let this thread die already. It's not useful and the op is a little shit.
Fuck all of you.

>>50496800
im too fat to be a little anything.

>>50496809
Fucking stop waddling and sitting on your arse like a NEET and starting exercising. You don't want to die before you're 25.

>>50496809
This explains so much. You're a neckbeard.

>>50496826
I'm not THAT huge. Just not "little". Lost 20 pounds last year though.

>>50496765
Okay, good. For a second there I thought you might be Virt. Your opinions are actually worth considering.