Why do martials even try? You cannot compete with the infinite

>>50464632
>martial wat do

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>>50464642

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Sorry Greg, but we're playing 4e. That shit doesn't fly anymore.

>>50464632
Honestly these faggots hate casters for the same reason they hate elves, because they're not 'manly' like dwarves and humans, aka obnoxious manchildren

>>50464677
>muh manliness

You're playing D&D for fucks sake. I'm guessing you're not exactly an alpha male to begin with.

>>50464632
>>50464677

I like casters very much, I just think it's stupid trying to "completely reasonable and real life bound fighters"* in a world of Dragons, Hydras, Orcs and Beholders.

*Mainly because they aren't. At high levels fighters just jump from the top of the Evil Tower of Ominousity because it's faster than walking the stairs.

Did you get banned for the "d20 sucks" threads so you are now spamming these?

>>50464632
Dear casterfag,
I know it's hard to grasp such harsh truth for a mind as primitive and delusional as yours, but yours passionate masturbation to the worst classes in the worst edition of one of the worse RPGs on the market won't in fact make any other player envious in the slightest.
You just picked up the cheap cheese because 1) you can't be assed to really roleplay or use actual wits to resolve encounters, 2) you lack the dedication and patience to master any playstile that differs from "I have a keyboard of win buttons and will gloat and feel smart about it", and 3) you sure as hell are too much of a whiny bitch to tolerate leaving any other player any trace of a spotlight.

So, what can I say to you? Have fun with your phallic hats and vibrating wands and turgid staves, and keep repeating the same pun about the fighter's greatsword being 'compensating for something', just to remark how witty you are. If the other players still tolerate you, they clearly deserve your cancerous company. As for all us other players and GM's out there, we're not going to miss you, your pathetic wizard or your caster-suprematist magical realms.

Also stop shitposting because holy shit am I tired to see the same idiotic thread popping up every day just like acne on your fat face.

>>50464632
Billy, this is Anima, sorry James is btter than you at combat but that's how Technicians work.

>>50464781
Stop pretending you don't enjoy these threads martialcuck.

You post in them every single time.

Martials are masochistic. They love the abuse really.

>>50464671
*5e

>>50464632
>OP makes fun of martials while playing 3.5 and PF
>I'm laughing at OP because I'm playing AD&D and you're most powerful spells take enough time for a martial to get a full attack on you, and if you get hit your spell is wasted, you've got a shitty armor class, and you've got D4 hp per level.

>>50464844
>
It's better, but casters can still obsolete the skill system with a couple of level 1 spell slots and a cantrip. Also, fuck bounded accuracy (more specifically, fuck how 5e uses it)

>>50464632
Pretty sure my martial can kill your caster because ot top of moving fast as fuck (having even punce and tekeports) and dealing enough damage to kill monsters several levels above me in one hit I have a feature that makes me go first, even on surprise rounds. So omae wa mou shindeiru

Ah, by the way, I see invisible and other shit

>>50464886
Bounded accuracy fucks martials so hard, no because to hit and damage but because secondary stuff like jumping, lifting, etc

>>50464632
Psst - we're playing Anima now.

Role for anal circumference.

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>>50464903
>Pretty sure my martial can kill your caster

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4209

>>50464935
>A round to prepare then we roll initiatives
No, you're dead, sorry life is unfair. I go first, I blow my load and you die.

>>50464919
Most of my problem comes from the fact that 8 stat no proficiency and 20 stat full proficiency is only 12 different, so odds are 60% better between a babbling incompetent and a max-level master. Only with expertise does this become a more reasonable 18 difference, but most people hardly get 4 proficiencies, much less expertise. Of course, one of the classes that gets expertise and buckets of skills is a full caster, because fuck you.

>>50464973
>this guy

You're funny dude. Tell me more about how a martial stands a chance against a caster in D&D. I could use a good laugh. There's literally nothing a fighter can do that a wizard can't just laugh off.

>>50464973
>not having everything prepared and having contingency spells activate for every possible situation before rolling for initiative.
No, you're dead, sorry life is unfair. You're dead before you get to go.

>>50464886
what spells can obsolete the skill system?

>>50464919
The contrary cos martials are the only one with STR.

>>50464781
Psions and Sorcerers can be rather fun to play, simpy because you can't do everything.
Even if you can get godlike in some things you need to make commitments and you need to plan.
And yet you an always be blindsided.

I know that most people consider tier 2 op garbage, but there's some serious fun to be had on it (tier 1 is one man party tier, not good for cooperative games).

>>50464985
It took me like 5 minutes to look for an scroll of antymagic field.

>>50464985
Like I said, I go first, teleport and deal more than enough damage to kill you. This was a 1vs1 no? I win. I also ca fly and become invisible, all of this without magic items.

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>tfw your group's casterfag joins the FantasyCraft group

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>>50465026
Here's a replacement for Survival, Medicine and Animal Handling, plus some damage.

The best part is that a Druid can completely change their spell list after a long rest, so if they're not ready today, they will be tomorrow.

>>50464677
Most people who play tabletops aren't exactly prime human specimens

>>50464632
So dork, your idea of awesomeness is silly white globes and hugeass sleeves?

>>50464632
I will resolve this conundrum by playing literally any balanced system

>>50464632
OP, listen to this man >>50465141.
The answer is GURPS, btw

>>50464632
>play with normies
>our spellcasters are total bros
>blaster casters who mop up mooks while the fitemans beat on the big dudes
>support bros who heal and buff their allies between bouts of smacking up skeletons with a mace
>most of the super cheese bullshit in the game gets ignored
>casters tend to be clever and pragmatic but aren't huge asses about it

It's almost like the problem is nerds.

>>>50465169
You nailed it

>>50465169
this tbqh.

If i have to choose between a group of normies and a group of nerds, i'll choose normies.

>>50465110
>playing druid in 5e

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>>50464650

>>50465169
3.5 is balanced on the assumption that casters will blast and clerics will healbot.
It's also balanced on the assumption that any given party has a bunch of roles covered (heal, trapfinding, lockpicking, partyface, etc). But they give casters tools to cover those roles in case another character isn't avaiable.
The problem is when people realize that covering those other roles is better than blasting/healing

>>50465169
>fist time pkaying this system
>noob picks druid ans bear
>another noob picks monk
>guess who had an awful time?
Being an asshole isnt the only reason why this system is flawed

>>50465057
Only casters can use scrolls

>>50465225
Well, Druid has class features stronger than most other classes.
Full Caster + A pet fighter better than the fighter + can become a fighter better than the figther

>>50465231
Nope, UMD, and you can get it as class skill with the correct feat/trait

>>50465231
>what is Use Magic Device

>tfw low intellect mongoloid, so can't tap into the secrets of the multiverse
Just end me now famalam

>>50465241
Well, monk is also broken but from the other side of the spectrum

>>50465110
The background that gives survival, also gives you autofood.
Survival let you have safe travels
Survival let you go around monsters and dangers.
Survival let you track.

Medicine is for asserting an injury, poison, cause of death. Effective healing in D&D has always been magical until 4e.

Animal Handling: duh you are a druid. Plus animal friendship requires a save and only works to not be attacked by it.

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Gonna repost this now since it seems like this thread is here to stay. Doesn't yet have the edit suggested in the previous thread.

>>50465269
Yeah, lots of tricks that don't sinergize, aren't strong enough, come too late to be useful and are sometimes contraditory.

>>50465278
>Take the spell book alway

> Laughs in Cleric

>>50465305
>Laughts in sorcerer

>>50465097
Did he face the might of Hydra Martial Artist or Soldier/Shinobi Knife Fighter?

>>50465286
And most of their stuff can be rendered moot with a 1st level spell or ring once you reach 2000 gold pieces

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>>50465278
Here you go, not the best edit but it does it's job

>>50465717
Would've preferred keeping "It's never been a problem at our table," but this is still nice.

I'll take my own stab at it and post it here when I'm done.

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>>50465717
>>50465782

>>50465049
That's part of why I like 5e so much. Going by the 3.5 tier system, most classes fall between tiers 2-4, with much fewer outliers.

Wizard and Bard are the only Tier 2 classes, and that's due to having a handful of broken spells. Armies of skeletobs, simulacrum+wish, Forcecage, True polymorph shenanigans. It's a rather short list, but it does give them quite a few nukes.

The only tier 4 classes I'd say would be Ranger and a handful of the weaker subclasses like 4 elements monk.

Everything else fits pretty solidly into tier 3.

And the best thing about this is spells are no longer a direct correlation to power. A rogue is probably going to be more useful than a Sorcerer, Ranger and 4elements monk aren't that great despite getting spells.

Really if you gave Ranger and Monk a few buffs and got rid of most of the high-level spell exploits, things would be great.

>>50465889
Yeah that one's better than mine

>>50465927
Didn't ranger get a buff in Unearthed Arcana?

And someone made a pretty good Wot4E monk homebrew in the 5e general

>>50465967
Yeah, I think the Unearthed Arcana ranger solves a lot of their issues. I haven't looked at that 4elem monk fix, but I wouldn't be surprised if it resolves that as well.

Really, the big things are just those few Bard and Wizard exploits, and those are really simple to fix by just banning or adding an extra restriction to a handful of spells.

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>>50466055
I saved it, here you go

Not sure how good it is, I just saved it without looking at it because "hey Wot4E fix, can't be worse than what's in the PHB"

>>50464632
I fight because no one should have that power. Because even in failure, my death can move others.
I fight because there is no other way. I fight because i must.

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>>50466202

>>50466080
Hmm...they made water whip a bonus action, which is good, and they also seemed to make Ki costs more reasonable. There also seems to be more utility and variety there.

I'd probably want to see if in play to be sure, but it seems nicely done.

>>50466233
Because the casterfag was any better?
I'm pretty sure both sides were being intentionally overdramatic parodies of the normal fan of the role, I know I was.

>>50464677
Elven Eternal Blades are one of the most dope martials in 3.5. They are like meat blenders of the elven people.

>>50464632
Okay but casters usually end up getting in more fucked up situations than fighters because they're arrogant and are dealing with forces way greater than themselves.

Casters are powerful but some others prefer mundane stability.

I think we can all agree that mages and fighters are at least better than clerics, though, because neither has to suck some big entity's dick to self-actualize.

>>50465096
You go first, teleport, his contingent spells activate and you die in a lake of acid.

>>50466441
>>50465096
There's no avoiding it m8. Even in AD&D, once mages get upper mid-range spells encounters practically revolve around the casters duking it out and fighters are just little guys running around. Rogues can at least be annoying if they have tons of invisibility potions but fighters don't have that luxury.

The only reason why fighters are better than mages is because they don't have to sleep all the time to stay in top condition.

>>50466481
But then again all it takes to make a rogue completely worthless is one cast of true seeing

>>50466481
Nah, Fighters in AD&D still had awesome hitpoints, saves, and damage. Casters were still taking minutes at a time to do anything so it was still easy to get in their face and interrupt them without a frontline.

No matter how good the wizard, a dagger between the shoulder blades will really cramp his style.

t. assassin

>>50466055
>>50466080
>>50466237
Just so you guys know, that's not an official WotC fix, it's a homebrew thrown together by a dude on the Unearthed Arcana subreddit

>>50466501
True seeing cannot detect mundane disguises or mundane stealth checks, you know. There are also at least 4 different ways around it.

>>50466441
>Schrodingers Wizard, ACTIVATE!

>>50466580
But the wizard was just a simulacrum and now you're trapped in a box.

>>50466617
>Schrodinger Wizard wins again!
>Because I say so!

>>50466597
Yeah but it's cumbersome to make mundane stealth checks in battle unless you have hide in plain sight, which I think is a scarce feature in AD&D. And most of the ways around true seeing revolve around having caster allies to counter it.

>>50466572
Mages can set protection spells on a contingency to make up for their poor HD and use tenser's transformation to literally become a fighter if they really wanted to.

homebrew 3x games to disallow a few metamagic feats and cut out a very small amount of spells and casters become much less dangerous.

>not defending 3x or pf flaws

>>50466481
What kind of AD&D are you playing? Even when mages get mid range spells, they can still get there asses beaten by martials if the martials are intelligent and lucky. How many death spells and fireballs does your mage have? What happens when the fighter starts saving against your spells (any damage spell does half damage, and any instant death spell does nothing), how good is your AC (after all, mages in AD&D can not use armor, magical bracers and robes are fine, but you can't wear that regular leather armor), do you win initiative, how many hit points do you have (after all, I hope you rolled high on all those D4's), and last but not least (it's also up to the DM as well), if you get hit while your casting your spell, then the spell isn't completed.

>>50466677
Also most fighters use magic weapons and armor to make themselves viable and who makes those? Casters do. So even if a fighter does beat a caster it's usually indirectly because of another caster.

>>50466677
Yes, because 1d4+4 damage is a real threat to something that can shrug of 1d10+25 damage three times.

>>50466677
>Mages can set protection spells on a contingency

Assuming they got those spells. Spells for wizards in AD&D are heavily reliant on the DM. He picks what you get when you level, he decides if you find a scroll to research.

If he doesn't want you getting contingency wards or being a temporary fighter, you probably won't be. And even if you are, those protection spells are rarely enough to do more except help you live. They won't make you immortal.

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The Blood God bestowed his blessing upon me and thanks to his might, I fear not the weapons of a cowardly mage.
Your witchcraft has no hold on me, and your skull will greatly please the Lord of Battle.

I've had an idea for a homebrew that relies on the idea that a 5th level character is roughly the equivalent of a top-shelf human being. Since 3.5/PF have this weird hard-on for realism for martials that says mundane can't do anything epic while wizards can bend reality, one could do this:
>get rid of Wizards altogether; if you wanna be a smarty, roll an INT-mancer Rogue or Bard or something, fluffed as a professor/scholar/whatever
>Sorcerer becomes a prestige class everyone except Clerics and Druids defaults to after level 5
>every base class upon hitting level 6th gets to start leveling in Sorcerer
>casting stat is the highest of INT/WIS/CHA, or the average thereof (compensated for by increasing the amount of possible stat levelups every 4 levels)
>Sorcerer's hit dice is d8 + CON; of pre-Sorcerer classes, only Fighters can reap a CON bonus higher than +2
>everyone sufficiently higher level can cast spells now
>this affects how everyone uses, and fluffs, their spell selection
>if you wanna warp reality in due time and stay on even playground, you will
>multiple spells but the Sorcerer's relatively restricted spell list encourage each member of the party to specialize

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>>50464632
Because when it comes down to it, you can't stop me from breaking your spine.

>>50466873
>a magical deity has granted me the power to defeat other magical beings
w e w still reliant on that magic, I see
when will fighters ever be able to stand on their own?

>>50467017
>dominate doesn't exist

Break your own spine

>>50467058
>getting through my Iron Will
>Implying I even need my spine to kill you.

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>>50464632

>>50467076
>he thinks I'm going to let him make a saving throw

>>50466441
>lake of acid
what part of I fly and Im invisible didnt you understand?

>>50466965
I like the idea of magic being something that experienced people discover after living some time as mundanes. It makes it more open to everyone as possibility, sets it as an ultimate destination for everyone (so there is no magic vs non-magic caste system) and it allows for more integration into individual play style. That's pretty cool.

>>50467017
Lmao good luck breaking through the emergency force sheild in one round.

>>50467017
Sure Mr low IQ barbarian. Here let me just gate in some demons to break your spine while I sip some more wine.

If you're lucky I wont' reanimate you're carcass to serve as my personal footrest.

>>50464935
Reminder that this is what happens when you pit a max level fighter against a max level wizard.

Martialfags BTFO for all time in every dimension. They cannot recover from this. It's over. Casters have won.

>>50467274
no, that happens when you give the caster preptime but you dont give preptime to the martial

>>50467292
They both had prep time in that example though.

>>50467292
You're delusional. Both player had prep time.

If you're seriously claiming that martials are as strong as casters in D&D you're fucking retarded.

>>50467247
What edition are we talking about and what level are we talking about? because if its 5e Gate doesn't give you control over what you summon

>>50467129
The one where lake of acid can suddenly start to exist in air. If you were borrowing you may have had a chance to last for more than one round. But if there is a line of sight to you - you are dead.

>>50467309
No, one has one turn, the other has several (time stop)

>>50467315
No, Im claiming that some optimized as fuck martials will reck that caster, if you dont fucking give with all the time in the world to prepare. You want a fair 1vs1, they found themselves, roll ini, no preptime, the caster has what he usually has, same as the martial. With that level of preptime no martial ever will ever win.

>>50467399
>line of sight
what part of invisi. . . fuck it, its clear you arent reading.

>>50467404
>No, one has one turn, the other has several (time stop)

Because he cast it with his caster abilities.

>>50467404
Casting Time Stop doesn't count as "extra prep time". It's just a spell. A spell that most high level wizards use I might add.

You're just insane if you think a martial stands a chance against casters. Even martials disagree with you. Look at the amount of bitching about caster supremacy on this board.

>>50467427
If you think wizard can't see invisible things you are really retarded.

>>50464632
Goku, Superman, Hercules, Kratos.

Your point is invalid.

>>50467442
Dont give them even a turn, both roll ini and thats it.

>>50465057
>my martial can beat your caster
>I just need to use a spell to do it

>>50467455
24/7?

>>50467499
365 days a year, 24 hours a day. There is a lot of ways to do it.

>>50467483
Even if you give the fighter a chance to act first:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm

I repeat, there is nothing a fighter can do that a wizard cannot just laugh off.

>>50467561
And the condition that triggers it is?

>>50467483
You do know there's a spell to just win initiative right? Ignoring all the other bonuses a Wizard can stack up, along with any effects that are so useful and easy to have on all day.

And, failing all of that, a contingency teleport brings the Wizard far away. Now they both have a bunch of prep time once more.

That's the trouble with a Fighter Wizard fight, because the Wizard has such an easy time of just leaving and generating prep time.

>>50467465
Alien, Alien, Half-god, God.

Wow you sure did us a favor. Why don't you do another favor for us and remove your genes from the pool?

>>50467604
A smelly fighter tries to hit me.

>>50467636
Nice, I'm not a fighter

>>50467635
Kratos wasnt a god till the end of the first game

>>50467612
How does it works against a feature that tells me that I go first?

>>50467612
If he flees thats a win for the martial according with the combat exp rules

>>50467635
>>50467674
Yeah Kratos didn't start off a God. Like another martial mortal he became a God through sheer strength of arms and character.

However the point was about martials not mortals so fuck you the point is invalidated by the fact that some martials completely out do all casters in their universe.

>>50467691
What feature is that?

The way I see it, there are two options for dealing with obnoxious casterfags.

The first is not playing 3.5, and the second is not playing with obnoxious powergamers.

>>50467912
Thing is it doesn't take a lot of power gaming on the casters part to break things. Fuck to break the game as a druid all you really need to do is not be retarded.

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Holy shit the martialfag tears in this thread

Stay mundane, swordfags

Stay terrestrial, axefags

Stay material, macefags

Stay sublunary, polearmfags

>>50464699
That's why they are Role Playing as one.

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>>50464632
...sorry, what powers?

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>>50467992

>>50468075
Martialfags are beta nerds IRL so they pretend to be big tough musclemen... Makes sense I suppose.

>>50468144
Projecting this much?

>>50468144
>>50464677
What if I play a cute boy martial?

>>50468093
MAGIC BE DASHED

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>>50468139
>shit martials can only do via magic

Try again, mundanefag

My group plays using 5e optional rest rules where a short rest is 8 hours and a long rest is 7 days. Tell me again about how awesome your mage is compared to the fighter and rogue. Pro tip you can't

>>50468276
Bitch please, they didn't use spells or shit like that.
Just raw awesome

>>50468293
Fighters can't do any of that shit in D&D.

Meanwhile, wizard can do all that and more.

Try again martialfag.

>>50468281
Awesome. We can all sit around for a week to wait for the Fighter to get up on HP and we can't even sidestep it with cleric healing now. Fucking amazing.

>>50468276
"High level martials use magic and magic is unrealistic" one of these martials are entirely non magical arguments

>>50468321
>Implying d&d is the only game that exists

>>50468326
Or maybe you can stock up on potions and other provisions before kicking down the dungeon door like the murderhobo you are

>>50468329
>only one

>>50468357
Potions don't heal for shit after the first few levels, and if you have a magic mart then it's better to stock up on offensive magic items anyway.

>>50464632
>compete with the infinite powers of the cosmos

Why would I ever play in a setting this boring?
Magic with limits is way more interesting.

>>50464632
Martials have bigger dicks

>>50468460
There's a spell for that.

>>50468391
We get by just fine with potions and cleric heals. Cleric is a nurse IRL so she wanted to focus on healing anyway. Not everyone wants to play the game of measuring dicks via damage output.

>>50464632
Caster shills're acting up again.

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>>50468321
>>50468535

>>50468457
Because other infinite powers are against you. It's about options, nigga, and being smart with them. Being underpowered limited garbage is just as boring.

>>50468718
Okay, Mr. Do Everything.

>>50468761
Listen, if you want to wallow in the mud with your sharp stick and rotten rusty half plate in Rapesville, Medievaland, shanking two diseased goblins to complete the corrupt sheriff's bounty so you can shag his underage daughter, by all means, you do that if it makes you feel cool and realistic.

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>>50465241
>>50465269
Merge them and you get Druid Monk hybrid

>>50466723
>Also most casters gain their levels adventuring and who hauls their 4hp asses through all these dungeons? Martials do. So even if a caster ever gets to a level beyond 3 and then beats a martial it's indirectly because of another martial

3e was a mistake

>>50467635
>Alien, Alien, Half-god, God.
Martial, Martial, Martial, Martial. None of them is a caster.

>>50469183
>spirit bomb sure is martial
>eye beams sure are martial
>demigod
>used magic all the fucking time

>>50469256
Spirit bomb was learn through martial training, yeah

>>50469256
>Spirit bomb
If Goku was a D&D character, he'd be a Monk. It is precisely explained that Ki and magic are very different in-universe and he doesn't use magic. At most he uses 'spiritual' techniques that are still tied to Ki.
>Eye beams
They sure aren't magic. They are 'physiological' if anything. All of his powers come from kryptonian physiology + starlight. And again, in DC universe there IS magic (at levels that put your D&D wizards to shame), and Supes hasn't anything magical at all.
>Demigod
Point still standing, he's a martial and not a caster.
>Uses magic all the time
Go ahead and tell me Kratos is primarily a caster and not a martial. I'm ready to laugh some more.

>>50467635
Remind me what the examples of casters are?
Gandalf's a minor god/angel.
Merlin's half demon.

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I fail to understand what those caster players are gloating about.
It's not like martial players couldn't choose caster classes if they wanted to.

>>50469506
This is why installation sorcerers are better-- they don't have to prepare your software, you can justake run it whenever you want.

>be a knight
>clad in full plate, sword and shield in hand, lots of hp
>have a wizard in my party wearing pajamas
>we encounter some enemies, I deal good damage to them
>the caster fires off a spell and it does more than what I did in that round
>some enemies circled around behind us to attack the wizard
>he isn't a ridiculous strawman god with contingency instant death barrier fireball teleport fields running at all times because we aren't 20th level and he already casted this round
>maybe he'll be able to take them out with a spell next round- wait what
>he ate every attack they made and fucking passed out he's on the ground crying and bleeding to death
>I run over to where he is and start trying to peel the enemies off him but they just keep attacking him
>he isn't able to cast anything else for the rest of combat because the enemies are keeping him in critical condition while the cleric acts as his life support so he doesn't need to be resurrected
>i finally kill the enemies that were attacking him and now the cleric is out of healing spells and the wizard is traumatized and crying and his staff is broken and there's something leaking out of his ass

>>50467120
>he thinks I can't Iron Heart Surge my way out of everything

Keep trying to control me. You're wasting spell slots.

>>50470680
This is the problem with "tank" characters, enemies can just bypass you and attack the true damage dealers

Magic in D&D is so banal.

>>50470680
>>50471508
Yeah, maybe if he had been playing a caster instead like a Druid he could have had more crowd control with vines, summons, or an animal companion.

Also

>blaster mage
>healbot cleric

Wands of Magic Missile and Cure Light Wounds exist for a reason. So you can spend spellslots on important shit, like a spell to prevent enemies from bumrushi g you because the Fighter can't hold a line worth a damn.

>>50465717
Path of War is really good and makes martials feel fun and viable though.

>>50471592
Bitch, please, Crusader with the Spiked Chain fo life.
Thicket of Blades is the shit

File: Furry party big monster.png (584KB, 1742x1118px) Image search: [Google]

584KB, 1742x1118px

>mfw never had to deal with caster v martial bullshit

>>50468276
A PC in a high fantasy game that doesn't have access to magic without having to use magic items is like playing a paraplegic, you can say he is hadicapable all you want but he isn't winning any foot races anytime soon

The idea that fighters should be limited to purely mundane real world feats is ridiculous, yet is touted by casterfags and idiots who keep spouting "no anime fighters" when anyone suggest giving them so much as a 5ft increase to their movement speed

>>50475823
Oh and something I forgot to mention, this is the fourth thread about this shit I've seen in the last two days lets just let it die and play a good system for a change instead of a 15 year old edition of a shitty wargame hack

>>50471592
Yeah honestly he should have cast sleep or deep slumber or one of the CC illusion spells. Im assuming at least level 5 right? I mean it not like evocation is the shittiest school on the book or anything right?

>>50470680
DLT THS