What is /tg/'s opinion on a plot device like this? Would

>>50372819
He's being a braggart, Icers are just naturally strong as fuck

>>50372819
Yes, definitely.
>players beat up villain
>villain escapes alive and gits gud
>players beat up villain again
>villain escapes alive and gits gudder
>players corner the villain
>villain says he's grateful for giving him motivation to git gud and surrenders
>players take him prisoner
>villain escapes alive
>returns to BBEG's host and secretly sabotages his stuff
>hydra dominatus

>>50372928
oops

>>50372828
Kinda. He literally just did the same thing his brother Cooler did, but Cooler still got beat by normal Super Saiyan goku. Transformed cooler was only barely stronger than normal non-gold Frieza. So, yeah, the species is strong compared to the rest of the universe for the most part, but even in comparison to another of his race, he's absurdly strong.

>>50372819
It's a decent way of explaining a recurring villain that scales with the party.

>>50372946
Naw it still took SSJ Goku to beat cooler, and meta cooler was easily able to beat both of them

>>50372819
Not in 4 months, something over a far longer period.

You know...I was kinda disapointed Goku Black wasn't actually Goku. I thought it would've been cool if it was like a Goku, who landed on a Red ribbon officer's doorstep or some shit, but I guess he wouldn't be Son, Goku Black. He'd be..

RedSon, Goku.

>>50373266
He would have destroyed the red ribbon army still though the first time he saw a full moon

>>50372819

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYmvPk5i384

>>50372946
Not that strange, compare Eli to Peyton.
It's just that in this species that difference is least how many yards you can throw with extreme accuracy and more how big a planet you can destroy with a blast from your fingertips.

>>50372946
Cooler did a weekend of Cross Fit and called it a day
Freeza went hardcore for like at least a year of continuous training

>>50373553
He only did 4 months.

>>50373345
delet

>>50373345
That movie sucked.

>>50372828
Will we ever see a good guy Icer?

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>>50372819
I'm not exactly upset with seeing Frieza return, but that entire plot device is bullshit. Not only that, it invalidates Frieza as a character in the Saiyan Saga. Frieza was a feared space tyrant who had an iron grip on his empire and loads of races he subjugated serving under him. He also destroyed planet Vegeta despite the saiyans being very loyal stormtroopers to his cause. Why? Because he had heard the legend of the Super Saiyan and feared it. We see why in the Namek saga: Goku was weaker than Frieza, but upon becoming a Super Saiyan he was able to surpass Frieza (even if only barely). Perhaps that's also why Frieza was on Namek in the first place: he feared something else like the Super Saiyan popping up so much that he wanted immortality.

Now that this "I've never trained a day in my life" plotline pops up, everything about Frieza's justification is bullshit. He feared the Saiyans, he feared his potential enemies enough to desire immortality, but he could've solved all problems he ever had by simply doing squats for four months? It's not like the Frieza empire lacked training facilities.

In-continuity it makes no sense. But I understand Toriyama's reasoning: everyone loves Frieza so let's bring him back. After all, we wouldn't get a villain even half as entertaining until ZAMASU

>>50373899
maybe Icers just cant git gud.
They get the power they are born with and no more or less.

>>50373899
You're confusing your headcanon for what's actually canon. Freeza's motivations for immortality were never fear, it was he just wanted to rule his empire forever.

>>50373899
I don't think training ever occurred to him. His entire army seemed to view the concept as foreign and instead focused in finding "mutants" with abnormally high base power levels.

You can see why though, they were able to defeat enemies like Nail and the other Namekian warriors who had spent an entire lifetime training like they were nothing. Not all species get the crazy gains like Saiyans do. And even most Saiyans lacked the dedication to do the crazy training that have made Goku and Vegeta so strong.

>>50374572
There's no denying that he's paranoid and constantly jumps at shadows despite being phenomenally powerful

>>50374592
>constantly jumps at shadows
He did it literally once, and that one time has pretty questionable motivations as the Bardok movie isn't canon.

>>50374572
his desire to kill the Saiyans was fear though. Also, after he got pretty well killed, he apparently went back to face Goku without training first, even though he was aware of the fact he'd lose.

It makes no sense.

>>50374577
>His entire army seemed to view the concept as foreign and instead focused in finding "mutants" with abnormally high base power levels.

Sayans train and are shown to understand the concept. They must have been familiar with the concept in the army that included them.

>>50374620

To be fair, when he went back to face Goku he pretty much just planned to blow up the planet right from the get go and watch the monkey suffocate.

>>50374577
Goku and Vegeta (and their kids) were exceptional because they became aware of the spiritual side of ki.

Freezypop's men knew what training is, ignore dub edits, they do mention the idea of power levels having a max potential limit. Cui says there's no way Vegeta's power level could be higher than what it's max measured potential is. But they all thought ki worked like a muscle, for them it was purely physical.

Goku and the gang are familiar with the metaphysical side of ki, how you can push beyond your limits and your only ceiling is the one you put on yourself. That's why he and Vegeta destroyed the Freezypop crew's entire understanding of ki. They didn't know ki had a metaphysical side.

>>50374620
>after he got pretty well killed, he apparently went back to face Goku without training first
He was a cyborg. He didn't need training because he was rebuilt better, stronger, faster than he was before.

>>50374620
Also don't forget Goku didn't defeat Freeza. Freeza defeated himself.

>>50374691
Eh he had him at his mercy and could have easily killed him had he wanted too. I consider that a defeat no matter how you look at it. Freeza had lost even before he bisected himself.

>>50374735
>I consider that a defeat no matter how you look at it.
You're neither Akira Toriyama nor Freeza, so it doesn't matter what YOU consider a defeat.

>>50372819
What do I think? it's bullshit, are you telling me that fighting against Gohan (who made him kiss the floor 2 times), Krillin (who cut his tail), Piccolo (who made him kiss the floor), Vegeta (who also made him kiss the floor), Goku (who utterly defeated him even at his strongest) and then Trunks (who utterly defeated him once again) isn't "training" or "extressing your muscless", then this is stupid.

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>>50372819
Pic related is waaaaaaay stronger, from 0 to Akatsuki level in taijutsu and ninjutsu in THREE days of READING books and PLAYING shogi. Give him an entire month and he'd be able to destroy Tobi, Madara and Kaguya at the same time.

>>50374789
Can Naruto characters cause planets to explode with little to no effort?

>>50374789
I don't know how crazy Naruto got in terms of power levels by the end of the series, but I'm pretty sure Freeza would still wreck that planet without any problems.

>>50374799
If Batman can punch Darkseid, I'm pretty sure Shikamaru could take on Golden Frieza with enough prep time. Nothing can defeat you if you ride the author's cock into battle.

>>50374809
>If Batman can punch Darkseid, I'm pretty sure Shikamaru could take on Golden Frieza with enough prep time.
Notto disu shitto agen.

>Nothing can defeat you if you ride the author's cock into battle.
Fair enough.

>>50374799
Actually by the end of the manga, yes.

>>50374772
Training your muscles and training your ki/powerlevel are entirely different things in Dragonball. Remember that Hercule was of great physical strength despite having a powerlevel of "swatted into a cliff"

>>50374809
You got it wrong, it wasn't that Batman punched Darkseid, it was that an angry Darkseid (Superman powerlevels and even beyond) punched with all his might Batman, and Batman (a human without powers) survived.

He also outran the flash, beat two full powered kryptonians using only martial arts, knocked Wonderwoman out with one punch, defeated a martial artist who was able to redirect a 10 km meteorite with aikido, etc.

>>50374834
Thankfully, this is all now non-canon.

>>50374829
He's still powering up and fighting and getting beat everytime and powering up once again, if ki is like a muscle then using it at your limit is training, he used it and surpased every state he was therefore he trained, therefore his whole "I nuvur truined!" is bullshit

>>50374841
...all of that is canon actually, anon. Previous to NU52 but still canon.

>>50374834
>He also outran the flash
....are you for real? Surviving a punch from Darkseid through the power of plot I understand, but this... no.

>>50374841
>>50374849
I'll never understand comic book continuity.

>>50374829
I know it defeats the entire purpose of his character, but imagine how strong he could be if he bothered understanding and training his ki.

>>50374841
Superman/Batman: The Supergirl from Krypton: Canon
War of the Supermen/New Krypton: Canon
Any of the Batman vs Karatekid: Canon

>>50374843
See >>50374665

However you're right in that it would make more sense if Freeza just said something like "I understand how ki fucking works now" or something instead.

>>50374829
Well but Frieza didn't know about Ki, and he didn't specify training Ki - in fact he said he never trained because there was never any need for it, implying he trained in a way that he knew about, but didn't consider important.

So he basically just trained normal.

>>50374876
>but this... no
Not outran in a straight race, but moved faster than him to throw a smoke bomb and then punch him. Outreflexed him? outreacted him? thought both were ready for the combat.

Its like in D&D, two guys are ready for the combat but one rolls higher Ini and readies an action, then the other at at least mach 8 tries to attack you but you counter the shit out of him and make him bite the dust.

>>50374880
So he's still bullshiting.

>>50374843

Has anyone told you what a pedantic little shit you are? Yes, going all out in the fight could count as training ones abilities but that isn't what he is talking about. He means training in the sense of hitting the gym, controlling his ki, or having practice bouts with other strong dudes.

>>50374891
What happened to percieving events that last less than an ottosecond?
Sometimes I believe you have to be literally superautistic to make sense of Marvel and DC continuity and consistency.

>>50374922
*Attosecond

>>50374891
Man, Flash is the least consistent character ever, he can dodge a sniper rifle at point black without even aware in the first place but gets beaten by the weakest dudes ever in the most retarded ways. Then there's Batman who's the exact opposite, a normal dude who does stuff well above superhuman level.

My headcanon is that Bruce does have actual powers, reality warping ala Franklyn Richards, but he doesn't know it and that's why he does the bullshit he does.

>>50374804
>I don't know how crazy Naruto got in terms of power levels by the end of the series
If you don´t mind spoilers, the plan of the villain included going great lengths just to use a technique on the moon, something you see a DB character doing when Goku was little. It´s retarded to compare the two.

>>50374938
>and that's why he does the bullshit he does.
Like redirecting a plasma beam with a random hand mirror like it were light? yeah, I know that feel

>>50374946
Actually is using the moon as a mirror to put everybody in a dream state of happiness. But they have the power to blow up the moon and even the planet, though only a couple of dudes (main chars and the 2 BBEG), they spam nukes at will with no effort and some explosions are 1/4 the size of the planet and they barely sweat. They probably can do a lot more but I don't think they want to die from suffocation in space.

Nowhere near later DBZ though, but probably in the same level as later Saiyan Saga.

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>>50374980
I'd say yeah, Late Plot Naruto is roughly Saiyan Saga in terms of power. Main characters can level mountains with their upper-tier powers, but aren't yet able to bench-press planets or destroy the sun.

>>50374789
Except Shikamaru, cause he is Naruto Batman and thus has no upper limit.

>>50374799
Well, at least one is able to drop meteors on the planet without much effort.

So.... maybe?

>>50375132
As far as meteors go, it was a big one, but it was moving pretty damn slow. Lots of weight, very little impact. And Pain was doing that two seasons beforehand.

>>50375132
Several km long meteors mind you, I think they're comparable to SSJ1, able to reshape continents at their upper limit.

>>50375132
Toneri cut the moon in half pretty casually and Naruto shrugged it off, and he's probably stronger now.

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>>50375180
>>50375184
>>50375206
Ah. I stopped watching after the pain arc, as that was when I lost interest in it.

Most of what I know of the shinobi war arc is from the occasional clip I see on the internet.

>>50375206
I think the Naruto series either has a smaller moon, or the writer has no idea of the actual size of the moon. Same foes for DBZ though, really. Both series has the moon get casually destroyed, as if this doesn't automatically destroy all life on earth as well.
>>50375237

>>50375240
To be fair, DB was an action comedy that ran on cartoon physics as much as it did anime action physics, it wasn't until it became Z that it started to take itself too seriously.

>>50375237
Be glad you stopped, honestly you should probably have just not watched Shippuden at all. The shinobi war is just one infeasible villain after another lining up to get punked by Naruto's "self truth" moments, with frequent flashback episodes to retroactively add the new villian to every part of the storyline. Kinda takes the impact out of the previous episodes when it shows characters capable of destroying cities just kinda sitting and watching earlier fights from the sidelines like its nothing. All those "Sanin are teh legendary fighers!" and "the Akatsuki are teh most dangerous criminals" lines become kinda irrelevant when you realize the weakest of the side cast could utterly destroy every villain from the first series at the same time with one hand.

>>50375237
Well, the big thing in trying to compare the two is that Naruto has crazy as fuck versatility. Orochimaru is a true immortal and Sasuke is a Planeswalker by the ending.

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>>50375287
Same goes for DBZ again though, as Buu saga Goten would, at the ripe age of 10, have been able to single-handedly handle every threat up to Perfect Cell.

>>50375289
I wanted so hard that they explore those different planes

Also a spinoff of Kabuto traveling around the world recollecting all those corpses

>>50375320
Goten also figures out super saiyan but not flight by age seven. I remember the story joking around about it, Gohan says something about how it was like learning to run before learning to crawl.

In Naruto verse the moon was actually created by a ninja, is not that rare that can also be destroyed by one, and the moon is pretty fucking big, if you're able to destroy the moon you're able to waste the planet.

>>50374577

Wait holy shit, his name was ACTUALLY Nail? I thought that was a joke in the Abridged series.

>>50375605
Ok.jpg
But who fucking cares?

>>50375840
If you read the thread someone asked if Naruto chars were able to waste a planet.

>>50375642
Dude, how have you not noticed Dragon Ball names are pretty much all silly?

>>50374938
Batman's super power is making everyone else around him less competent

>>50375975
Well yeah but they're mostly based off of a food.

>>50376223
Not all of them. Bulma's family is named after underwear, and all of Piccolo's minions were named after musical instruments.

>>50375642
The races generally have naming schemes to them. Namekians usually have names relating to snails and slugs (obvious exception being Piccolo), full-blooded Saiyans usually have names that are a pun on vegetables and humans are usually named after foods

>>50376327
Who was a faggot?

>>50375237
If I remember right they put out filler episodes for 6 months before finishing the arc

>>50373634
Play XenoVerse.

>>50373899
That movie also mentioned (or was it Battle of Gods?) that Beerus told Freeza to blow up planet Vegeta.

Is Barduk still the legendary saiyan or was that already erased from existence?

Also, Goddamn, everything that came after Cell games sucks, specially everything that came after Buu Saga

>>50377981
>>50373899
It was battle of the gods, don't think they ever went into more detail, beerus was probably mad the saiyans were running around doing his job of destruction

>>50378009
He might have just been acting lazy. The guy can sleep for decades at a time, maybe he just said, "Fuck this, I'm going to bed. You, purple psycho, go do my job for me"

>>50378006
Bardock may have been mentioned at one point, I believe it was in battle of the gods where beerus or whis said something about SSJ Goku looking familiar

>>50373899
The "i'm scared of saiyans" math adds up if you take away the power level bloat from the end of the frieza saga. Monkeygeta from the saiyan saga was 180,000 actually stronger than captain gynyu. That means that a monkey form saiyan of captain ginyu's power level would have been close to a million and a half, enough to bust frieza's balls in his second form. If the show had stopped increasing numbers exponentially for each form, frieza would've been very beatable by a super saiyan ginyu equivalent with near three million.

Unfortunately, they just kept inflating shit up the wazoo.

>>50375375

Flyings a bitch technique anyway, that's what fire breathing turtles and magic clouds are for.

>>50375237
The shinobi war arc isn't that great but it has a lot of cool fights and really that's all you can ask out of a shonen series
Though I did steal the whole Edo Tensei thing for one of my home games, evil wizard resurrects the greatest warriors and heroes of the ages including some former PCs in an attempt to take over the world

>>50374577
It makes me wonder how much he trained, if at all, between Namek & Future Trunks arrival.

>>50372819
Is there a manga version of this? If not where can I find a decent streaming site? Only weeb shit I care about
wonders of nostalgia

>>50374789
His entire schtick was strategy. Give him info and a month of prep time and you basically have Batman.

>>50379332
Just watch dragon ball super, they recap the movies in horrible animation quality that was fixed on the DvDs

there's also some minor updates to the arcs such as Ginyu making a quick return

>>50379363
hold on there are movies?

>>50379441
Duh? Battle of Gods and Resurrection F

there's also Yo! Son Goku...

What kinda rock you've been living under? Super finished 2 major arcs

>>50379441
>>50379547
First two arcs of Super are the movies. So just watch the movies because they're not stretche out and have better animation, then go to the new content, which is the universe 6 tournament arc and the Future Trunks/Black Goku arc.

>>50373345
What the fuck?

>>50372828
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/episode-bardock-akira-toriyama-super-qa/
>"Freeza is what you might call a mutated life-form. Strictly speaking, Freeza’s father is a mutant with an abnormally high battle power. And, born from his father alone, still in strong possession of the mutant traits, was Freeza."
>"Accordingly, even saying “Freeza’s race”, these two are the only ones who possess an abnormal [level of] battle power and cruelty."

>>50372828
is Icer their canonic name?

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>>50374922
It's easier to just accept that there isn't any.

>>50373899
Your forgetting one key thing: Freiza is a flawed character. Frieza COULD have spent his life training and testing himself to be the strongest, but that's not what Frieza WANTS.

>>50380912
They don't have one. Icer and Changling are descriptive enough given their naming patterns and transformative abilities.

Frost Demon was used once in the English version of Xenoverse and Arcosian was used once in the English dub of an anime only scene in reference to aliens that might not have been Freezas people at all.

>>50375126
>Naruto Batman
Topkek

>>50381189
>>50380912
I think an italian dub also called them "Glacians"

>>50381261
I was really hoping that Frost would reveal their name in the Universe 6&7 Tournament. Given that Toriyama is the show runner a name given there would be indisputable canon and we'd be able to put this to rest.

>>50375320
Wasn't adult Goten being beaten the fuck up by Frieza in one of the "all bad guys revive" movies?

>>50373568
Comparatively speaking.

>>50379334
The problem is that he won through brute force, speed, techniques and direct approach, literally 0 strategy. Completely out of character, he went from a weak and feeble guy who managed his chakra resources and relied on strategy to Kakashix2 in 3 days or reading and playing chess, and no, is not an hyperbole, 3 fucking days.

>>50381818
Well, he used strategy, his strategy was "lol I'm now faster than fucking Kakashi and better at combat than him and have the chakra pool of a jinchurriki, I bet you didn't see this master plan coming!"

>>50380912
They're just called Frieza Race because Toriyama is lazy as fuck and nobody at Toei feels like doing anything more than what's required of them
In one of the games, Cell calls them Frost Demons.

>>50381897
>In one of the games, Cell calls them Frost Demons.
Don't think anything of it, it was just one line where the localizers were giving a shoutout to the Multiverse web comic.

>>50381710
None of the movies are canon, except the recent two being pseudo-canon because they ended up as plot arcs in Super.

>>50380066
This is how he's tortured in hell.

>>50381990
Supposedly Bardock's and Trunk's movies were canon. Scenes of them appear even in the manga.

>>50381965
I really wish I could the face of the dude who writes that when Patora's got retconned to only last 1 hour.

>>50382021
Toriyama took some of the ideas from them after the fact, but changed them significantly.

IIRC Dragonball Minus is the short manga by Toriyama where he rewrites the Bardock story, and other than "Bardock exists and Freeza kills all the saiyans" they're nothing similar. (It also reveals Goku's mom, which is neat.)

>>50382078
Was there a proper explanation (not a fan theory) as to why Vegito split in the Buu arc?

If not than the 1 hour limit for non-kais would be filling a plot hole rather than retconning.

>>50382078
Dude, given that there's only, what, 12 universes in canon? The comic's ENTIRE premise has been destroyed completely.

>>50382082
That comic is shit, Vegeta doesn't look like young Vegeta (as a kid he didn't have the widow's peak), it's clearly made waaaaaaay after DBZ just to cash some bucks.

>>50382116
Buu's farts
His digestion is a lot better than expecting us to believe that 1 hour was up exactly when Vegito dropped the barrier.
Plus, the reason for the retcon was incredibly transparent.

>>50373899
Freeza is a thug. He's basically originally written to be a yakuza boss.

>>50382146
Also Goku with armor? bullshit. This looks like fanfic.

>>50382146
Characters not looking like they're supposed to is recurring problem in DB
Trunks in Super should be like 14 or 15 now, but doesn't look anything like he does in History of Trunks

>>50382183
With armor and older than he actually was when he arrived Earth. It looks like DBZ Universe bs.

>>50382147
>1 hour was up

The very episode that added the 1 hour fusion for non-kais also had him defuse after 10 minutes from using too much power.

>>50380066
since hes a cold-hearted willfully evil psychopath who gets off on hurting people, happy fluffy animals n shit is his ultimate punishment in hell.

>>50382146
Most of the comics dialog reads like bad fan fiction written by people who can't understand how to write natural dialog. It's really bad and I cringe so hard every time I try to read it that I just can't.

Some of the artists are pretty competent though. There's at least moments that actually get Toriyama's style, though all of the guest artists are shit.

>>50382116
The magic bubblegum who turns people into chocolate has a fucked up atmosphere inside of it. Given the shit Buu was capable of, it's a smoother explanation.

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>>50382222

>>50382220
This was more or less a rehash of GT, even more than the rest of Super. They couldn't let Vegito finish Zamasu off just like how they couldn't allow Gogeta.

>>50374980
The highest destruction feat we got was the moon-slice in The Last, and destroying the moon was done all the way back by Roshi.

>>50382284
It worked better that Trunks was the one to deal the finishing blow, even if the way it was executed was bullshit.

Also is anyone else weirded out by the Mai/Trunks relationship? Sure she was made young again by the dragon balls but bitch is still older than his fucking mom.

>>50382362
I felt it was too forced. In Dragon Ball, Gohan's potential was constantly mentioned and built up. The Cell saga's conclusion wasn't anywhere as forced as this. They might as well have Mai arrive with that Farmer's shotgun and fire Spirit Bomb bullets.

>>50382388
she did nearly take out the potara earing

>>50382404
Taking out the Potara doesn't change much. It doesn't undo any fusion.

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The question is can anyone beat Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann?

>>50382362
Not really. I think her and Trunks are cute.

>>50382229
The post you're replying to was talking about Dragonball Minus (an official prequel), not Dragonball Multiverse (the fan webcomic).

>>50382500
Yet Multiverse is billion times better, odd.

>>50382538
So long as Salagir keeps masturbating to his mary sue Bra then it isn't.

>>50382229
They had a tongue in cheek encounter with a character named Mary Sue and seemed rather self aware of that particular pitfall, then they went right ahead and introduced their version of Gokus mother that was a total fucking Sue.

God damn it how can someone be self aware and oblivious at the same fucking time.

>>50382078
>>50382116
Dragonball Multiverse's explanation of the de-fusion was that the Supreme Kais inside Buu's body were assholes who refused to share their holy tools with mortals, though. And one of the alternate universes is one where the Kais have become extremists and go around killing any mortals who cause too much trouble.

Which is hilarious now that we have Zamasu.

>>50382538
>Multiverse
>better than anything

Yeah, nah. Multiverse is worse than shit. The only good thing to come out of it was the idea of a Namekian who was a fusion of every single Namekian ever effectively created to be a last resort super weapon. And even then only the idea was neat. Everything else was utter garbage, I've seen better written fan fiction from spastic 14 year olds.

>>50382550
But anon, recently Captain Ginyu killed Bra and stole her body

>>50382450
TTGL is garbage

>>50382554
>God damn it how can someone be self aware and oblivious at the same fucking time.
The only thing worse than shitty writers is arrogant shitty writers.

The poke at Mary Sue wasn't SELF-awareness.

>>50382641
this, it was "good thing we'll never be that bad at writing anything ever"

>>50374876

Goku should have fused with Hercule. The ki powers of a super saiyan with the technique and combat instincts of a world class martial artist.

>>50382715
that reminds me, Hit feels to me like what might happen if you taught Hercule Ki usage, he cant transform or any gimmicks, he can only Improve

>>50372946
Remember as well that Cooler trained all his life to hit 5th form. Frieza overwhelmingly surpassed it and was even arguably stronger than Super Saiyan Blue, and all it took him was 3 months.

>>50374750
You'd have to be pretty stupid to honestly to not consider that a defeat.

>>50382554
>then they went right ahead and introduced their version of Gokus mother that was a total fucking Sue.

She was such a fucking Sue that she's only showed up in backstories and is dead in literally every universe due to one being or another being stronger than her, except the in the universes where she never existed in the first place.

Wait, what?

>>50382782
Depending on if you consider Frieza's 100% power buff a "transformation" or not, Frieza's gold form would be his 6th.

Also Cooler isn't canon.

>>50382813
As far as Freezer cares he was defeated by his own carelessness, because he's an arrogant, narcissistic, psychopath. It doesn't matter what you or I consider it, Frieza didn't see it that way.

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>>50382450
Is there a even character that’s close to being as perfect as Cell? Let alone be him. And I'm not talking about Perfect Cell. I'm not talking about Super Perfect either. Hell, I'm not even talking about SSGSS Golden Cell. I’m also not talking about SSGSS Golden Cell who fused with 9001 SSGSS Golden Cell Jrs & obtained Beerus & Whis' DNA. I'm definitely NOT Talking about SSGSS Golden Cell who fused with 9001 SSGSS Golden Cell Jrs & obtained Beerus, Whis, Champa & Vados' DNA after absorbing enough Spiral Power & Getter Rays to use SSGSS Golden Tengen Toppa Getter Emperor. I'm talking about SSGSS Golden Cell who fused with an infinite number of SSGSS Golden Cell Jrs & obtained Beerus, Whis, Champam, Vados, Madara Uchiha & Ultimate Kars' DNA to obtain Requiem versions of every Stand (including but not limited to Gold Experience Requiem, Made in Heaven Requiem, The World Over Heaven Requiem & D4C Requiem) after absorbing enough Spiral Power & Getter Rays to use SSGSS Golden Tengen Toppa Getter Emperor as he pilots Elder Demonbane with Cosmic Armor, Power Cosmic, and Omega effect while he does 101 Push-ups, 101 Sit-ups, 101 Squats, 11 km run per day for over 4 months inside the sun after ingesting Kryptonian DNA (to somehow obtain infinite power from a finite source) after consuming Popeye's Spinach while riding the writer's cock to battle.

>>50382855
Don't forget fusing with Jackie Chan and fighting in a stair and ladder storage warehouse while holding a baby and not wanting any trouble.

>>50382854
>Also Cooler isn't canon.

Fine, but that still leaves Frieza in 3 months going from where he was in the end of the Frieza Saga, to a power level far in excess of Androids, Super-Perfect Cell, every form of Majin Buu, and SSj God Goku, and arguably even SSj Blue Goku or Vegeta (with the caveat that he can't maintain that power for very long).

I don't think of Frieza 100% as a transformation, personally. But then I also don't think of "Ascended Super Saiyan" (what Vegeta did during the Cell saga) or "Ultra Super Saiyan" (Future Trunks, same time) as a real transformation, either. It's just pushing the extant transformations to new limits.

>>50382907
But anon, Buu never trained either. If Buu traines for 5 seconds, he'd be beyond Zeno.

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>>50373899
I think it's a fair "What-If" scenario for Frieza because he was essentially the Natural Talent vs Hard Work in Goku's whole "Am I really a good fighter or am I just a below-average Saiyan that's picking on weaklings?" arc.

What undermines Frieza's credibility here is that we don't see the training & we're told it was quite short.

Granted 4 months compared to Goku's 2 weeks~month of training in 100g + his zenkai from getting wrecked by Ginyu put him up to his Super Saiyan point is four times as long, and Gold Frieza might just be his races equivalent of Super.

I think it'd been more interesting had Frieza made a wish like
"I wish I had Goku's training", and had a montage of a kid-Frieza running through all of Goku's Dragon Ball exploits

>>50382854
I guess that's fair, but it seems like the same level of accepting someone who blames their losses in games to shitty team mates etc.

>>50382946
You're not supposed to "accept" it, you're supposed to realize just how much more arrogant and stupid it makes Frieza, and the reason he didn't try improving himself after going after Goku and gang a second time was because he honestly believed he didn't need to.

>>50382854
I consider Freezas 100% form to be identical to Roshis MAX Power form. The only difference being the difference in power between the two people who used it.

>>50382782
Depends on the significance of the training

For all we know Cooler spent all of his Frieza money flexing his dick in different gravitational pulls til it had the right curve for his weird homosexual alien lizard ladies

Maybe Frieza just did squats & oats for a 4 months

>>50374799
>little to no effort?

That's more effort than Shikamaru puts into anything he does.

>>50383034
I wonder if Frieza's forms are also using some sort of % their max power
Maybe its just dumb to find some sort of pattern in his transformations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmg9xGcTeIg

>0.5M
>1~M
>???
>30~60M
>120M

>>50383137
Canonically Frieza's forms are power downs, his 4th his his true form. He seals and releases his power in steps because he's so immensely powerful that he had trouble controlling it otherwise.

>>50382944
Or if there had been some kind of makaioshin counterpart to King Kai in Hell that had trained Frieza, perhaps.

I think the key to understanding how training works in DB is none other than Krillin and Raditz.

When Raditz first showed up the two characters had one encounter, Krillin getting tail flicked through a wall. Radditz went on to fight Goku and Piccolo, two characters that wouldn't stand a chance against him on their own and each dwarfed Krillin in power.

One year of hard training later, Krillin one shot several beings explicitly stated to be as strong as Radditz. The growth there was ridiculous.

The effectiveness of training is obviously tied to how brutal it is, but I think the power gained from training might also be multiplicative, as opposed to additive.

Freeza, having never trained a day in his life, was the equivalent of a guy who never works out and sits in an office chair all day. Goku had to bust his ass and fulfill an ancient alien prophecy to become just strong enough to beat him. Freezas base level, his starting point, is way the fuck higher than anyone else's. Hard training that results in power being multiplied would push him to ridiculous heights.

>>50383204
Would've been more interesting than Steve Griffon waddle dee shooting a laser into Goku

>>50383215
Tl;dr: Krillin shows us that training probably throws multipliers on your base power. Freeza had a ridiculous amount of power to multiply.

>>50383137
The Japanese voices are so fucking bad.

>>50383260
Found the pleb!

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>>50383260
Say what you lil space homo

>>50383298
>>50383284
Goku sounds like a fucking 12 year old girl.

>>50383215
If Freeza were to put in as much effort as Goku or Vegeta, he would have walked all over them, and likely Beerus. That said, Cell never trained either, so his starting point is technically higher. And again with Buu, although neither of these characters are natural born mortals.

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>>50383304
its true

ITS TRUE OH god its true

ablooblooo why is it true

qq its so true

>>50383325
>Cell is technically higher

Well he is the love child of Frieza & Goku & Piccolo

I feel like his progress might be muddled though

>>50383304
Because he's voiced by a woman. A woman who happens to be one of the best voice actors of all time, but only keeps doing adult Goku's voice because the studio refused to switch actors even when the character grew up because they thought it'd confuse the children.

>>50383325
Cell has icer, saiyan and namekian dna from the three most powerful representatives of each species and absorbed two unlimited power batteries.

>>50383325

Can the androids actually grow stronger through training?

>>50383404
Doesn't make the voice any less terrible.

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>>50379363
Explain to me how Ginyu is still a frog on Earth when Buu destroyed the Earth but they used the dragonballs to only wish "good" people back to life.

>>50383419
That's just your opinion.

>>50383415
Hehe...

"What's better than one source of infinite power? TWO sources of infinite power!"

>>50383434
He was clearly a good guy.

>>50383434
>>50383455
Would a bad guy strike silly poses in order to encourage and inspire his men?

I think not.

>>50383434
Ginyu is a good guy, he was just dealt a bad hand in life. That simple.

>>50383434
Easy
>they used the dragonballs to only wish "good" people back to life.
That's not what happened.

>>50383452
Well, considering they do have a total limit on their output, having two of them is pretty good.

>>50383470
He's pretty much the best, most supportive teacher in xenoverse. I would dare say he acts more heroic than the "good guys" in the game.

>>50383482
In the Japanese anime and manga the Ginyu Force are portrayed a lot like Tokusatsu/Sentai heroes. They believe is fair play, good sportsmanship, and profess and practice good habits like brushing your teeth and going to bed early, and reward themselves with treats for doing well.

They just HAPPEN to be working for the bad guy, and that's part of the joke.

>>50372819
boring as fuck

>>50383482
In the Hero mode of Ultimate Tenkaichi (a shitty game, but hero mode was effectively proto-xenoverse) your character and Ginyu actually have a very friendly relationship.

>>50383304
Not in mexican, he has Bruce Willis' voice actor, who coincidentally also usually plays the most badass dude in any movie. So, for me, Goku has John McClane's and Broken Sword's voice.

>>50382473
>oh fuck I've been converted into a child
>welp I guess I like little boys less than 1/4 my age that I didn't even know a few hours ago now
The whole thing was hamfisted

>>50383518
Yippee kaio-ken, Mr. Freeza

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>>50383528

>>50383525

Anon pls. If you were old and suddenly became young again, you ain't going to go around picking up grannies.

>>50383568
Fuck you I laughed my ass off to that.

>>50381897
>They're just called Frieza Race because Toriyama is lazy as fuck and nobody at Toei feels like doing anything more than what's required of them

meanwhile 17 & 18 are lapis & lazuli but everyone still calls them 17 & 18

>>50383528
Indeed.
Start the vid at 0:50 (the first minute is cringy and you wouldn't understand it). Goku is McGuyver, Hulk, Broken Sword, Jim Carrey (so Ace Ventura and the Mask too), animated Tony Stark, John McClane, the Wonderful Years. Even though he also voices some of Gerald Buttler's roles, he's not Leonidas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C95c_hRGl5A

>>50383619
That COULD work if she were even in a pubescent age

Suddenly going bananas for some random kid you could have been the grandmother to before being magically younged down is quite a bit more fucked. Her body either doesn't or just barely has a sex drive yet, she logically made a completely conscious and sober decision to get lovey dovey with a kid

>>50383768
It is possible that being turned into a child could effect ones mental state. Perhaps the transformation also reverted her to the mentality of a child.

Sure she still remembers everything before, but her mind might be that of a kid.

>>50382362
i found it easier to accept that DB after frezia or cell was a mistake and treat everything after said points as non cannon

>>50383832
>Perhaps the transformation also reverted her to the mentality of a child.
Super has shown this to be the case for all three of them.
But they're also Sat AM children's show tier recurring antagonists, so they were always childish.

Remember Dragon Ball was primarily a comedy for young kids, and Super has been making more of an effort to return to those roots. Don't think too seriously of it, it's not meant to be taken so seriously.

>>50384074
I've always thought about grown up Goku as a ditzy plucky ex-adventurer farmer who enjoys fighting a bit too much and is unfairly good at it.
So, Goku is basically an ork.

>>50384101

He is far too nice to be an ork.

>>50384117
All things considered, Orkz are pretty friendly. They just have a fundamentally different idea of what a good time is with the rest of the universe.

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>>50383528
Kaio-what?

>>50383858
Overall I'd say that the Saiyan~Frieza arc & the Cell arc had a good overall narrative & scale.

Things somewhat drop off after Majin Vegeta's suicide and it becomes a weird circus whose overall point is then diminished.

>>50384500
the only things that I really liked about buu was the great saiyaman & hercule

had they stuck to their guns with gohan as the main character and not have the entire saga practically be a training arc i think it would have turned out better

>>50384500
The major problem with everything post-Cell is that despite having a large cast of characters, everyone who wasn't a Saiyan became totally irrelevant.

>>50384595
and now everyone who isn't goku or vegeta is irrelevant

>>50384074
it's been very clear since buu that they wanted to go back to that but it would have been easier and arguably better if they just rebooted the series instead

>>50384691
For being a saturday-morning children's cartoon Dragonball had some very exciting fights. Rewatched it recently and basically every serious-business fight was legitimately better than 50% of the fights in Z and 100% of Super.

>>50383404
Wrong. Toriyama himself approves of Nozawa, and frankly, speaking as somebody who started out with the dub, I agree with him and wouldn't have it any other way.

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Why doesn't Krillin just wreck anything that comes along with Taiyoken/Kienzan?

Always wondered why he didn't cut Freeza to ribbons in that canyon on Namek.

>>50384797
It fits what Goku's personality is supposed to be like. People who came into the show from the dubs have this really weird idea that DBZ is supposed to be anything but a lighthearted action adventure anime because the localization companies in nearly every region tried to serious it up. Just compare the Toonami aired dubs with the original Japanese, just changing the tone of the voice acting, the music, and having a gruff growling narrator completely changed the tone of the show.

DB, Z, GT, and Super are not and never were meant to be super serious. They're action adventure comedies with occasional moments of severity, which is pretty normal for shounen anime.

>>50382758
Nah, if you taught Hercule how to use Ki you'd end up with something like another Krillin.

>>50384825
Ignoring the fact that the plot mandated he not do that: Taiyoken doesn't necessarily prevent the opponent from dodging, we can assume Frieza could probably panic dodge and be fine due to the mismatch in raw speed.

Later on in the series he just fell so far behind in power level that even landing a Kienzan wouldn't actually accomplish anything.

>>50384844
>People who came into the show from the dubs have this really weird idea that DBZ is supposed to be anything but a lighthearted action adventure anime because the localization companies

i dunno even in the sub the whole android/cell saga felt anything but lighthearted

>>50384895
The kienzan only ever hit frieza's tail during the whole run of the manga. Literally every single other time it hits anybody, including the one where it hits Cell that everyone keeps quoting as proof for it being useless, was added by the anime. And none of them actually achieve anything, it's just to show krilin jobbing. One time it even gets literally tossed away

>>50384942
Every single saga since Piccolo in DB and up to Great Saiyaman in Z wasn't even remotely lighthearted, other than certain parts of Frieza. They weren't adventure either. That anon is talking out of his ass

>>50383173
You know, this has always bugged me. You can clearly tell he has to put effort into transforming, and if the forms are just seals that keep his power down then shouldn't the difficulty be in putting them in place, not removing them?

>>50373266
reminds me of an idea a buddy had.

He wanted to make a story where Goku Black was actually "Black Goku" and he was powered by "Soul"

And before you ask, yes, it's exactly what you think it is, and yes, it's fucking ridiculous.
"Frieza! You shot my homie, nigga! You'za dead mutha-fucka!!!"

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>>50384595
>...everyone who wasn't a Saiyan became totally irrelevant.
>>50384691
and now everyone who isn't goku or vegeta is irrelevant

This is what really bothers me about DBZ/Super. My favorite characters are Krillin and Piccolo and they rarely get to matter anymore.

I remember absolutely going nuts the first time I saw Piccolo fighting 17 and pulling this move off against him (pic related). I just wish it had accomplished somethings. I love how Piccolo is such a calculated fighter who doesn't always rely on overpowering his opponents.

>>50385076
I like Piccolo comes up with cool fucking moves and only uses them like once.

>>50385063
and suddenly it would make the whole "le goku is a deadbeat" meme make sense

>>50385076
if it makes you feel krillin is the only other Z fighter that has a healthy married life

the other being gohan

>>50385274
Tien would have but Toriyama forgot his waifu existed.

>>50385292
i always figured tien & launch were more friends with benefits

also she was in that thing with vegeta's brother

But is the scene where Vegeta uses the Final Flash against Perfect Cell the coolest single attack scene in Z?

>>50385060
He doesn't have difficulty removing them iirc, he's just a smug piece of shit

>>50384942
That was intentional though, that whole saga was a departure from the norm, not THE norm.

>>50385001
I see you've only watched the dubs.

>>50385512
No, I've read the manga

>>50385373
You have an odd way of spelling Tienshinhan's Paradox Beam.

>>50382855
>while riding the writer's cock to battle.
He's fast... that's no ordinary pasta, its already up to date!

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>>50380976
>Able to dodge explosions
>Not able to just not run into a stationary object.

I get writing around a speedster is hard, but that seems exceptionally lazy.

>>50385615
"Lazy" is par for the course for comic writers. I just don't understand how anyone can bitch about retarded animu tropes but still tolerate DC and Marvel's garbage in any way.

That shit is worse than anime in every way.

>>50385680
If it helps, I hate both. Unless I find their stupidity funny at times, but mostly because I identify the tropes involved.

>>50385680
speaking as a Superheroes fan I agree that this stuff has become pure garbage, these settings need finite limiters for the powers to mean anything, get more creative with what is there instead of escalating to bigger and MORE

>>50385803
What they need to do is take a page from the majority of manga writers: know when to just let a fucking story end.

>>50385846
Can't do, superheroes are not characters they're money making IPs and companies will lose them if they stop using them.

That's partly why DC's elseworlds were usually so fucking good. They allowed for self-contaned stories.

>>50385971
So basically a shitty legal system with poorly written laws is what forces capeshit to suck ass.

Makes sense, really.

>>50385982
It's literally the only reason anyone even wrote Wonder Woman for bewteen Marsten and Rucka/Perez.

>>50385971
Same with Adaptations in other mediums like Film and Animation, quality is a mixed bag but having a finite span ensures the stakes actually exist, death has meaning and characters can have a culmination that doesn't regress to a status quo

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>>50385846
>manga writers: know when to just let a fucking story end.

>dragonball is still going on with stupid crap like GT & super
>one piece & berzerk will never end in our lifetime
>jojo's bizarre adventure is on it's 8th iteration
>yugioh is on it like 6th or 7th iteration & they're bringing back the original series
>naruto's wild ride just started up again
>bleach

shonen is basically the japanese equivalent to superhero comics acting like one is superior to the other is just plain stupid

>>50386600
Cherrypicking much?

>>50386600
>jojo's bizarre adventure is on it's 8th iteration
I think you're missing the point, just because something is long-running doesn't mean it's falling into the neverending story/permanent status quo pitfall. You can say a lot of bad things about Jojo but that isn't one of them.

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>>50386600
Every other iteration of jojo takes place in a radically different place with a (mostly) new set of characters so I'm not sure its really comparable to the others.

>>50386600
Dragon Ball ended years ago, it's just Toei kept on making movies & shit & eventually Toriyama came along in an attempt to have some quality control.

Naruto & Bleach have ended, One Piece is over half done.

Just about every Jojo part is a new genre. One was adventure, slice of life, gangster, prison, racing, etc.

>>50386600
>I literally have no idea what anon was talking about nor what I'm talking about myself, so I'll just shitpost with reaction may mays!

>>50383768
Wait, which Mai are we talking about here? Present Mai or future Mai? Because future Mai fell in love with an adult Trunks after fighting alongside him for an unspecified amount of time.

Present Mai got the hots for that same adult Trunks when he appeared in the present timeline. She spent most of the arc friendzoning Kid Trunks.

Lusting over someone in their late teens or early twenties is pretty normal no matter what age you are.

>>50385334
Launch shows up in the background on occasion, just don't expect her to ever speak again.

I always figured she ditched Tien after realizing he was shounen character dense when it came to sex.

>>50386600
Except shonen is more consistent than cape comics, bar a few cases, because it only has one or two writers, while cape comics have tons and Bendis

>>50384101
So he's space Irish ?

>>50388571
The closest thing to Marvel/DC superhero comics in Japan is probably the Nasuverse. It has tons of writers nowadays, and a bunch of stuff from Fate/stay night has been retconned so that they can write more spinoffs.

Though given the format, the "core stories" of the Nasuverse are still pretty accessible, and you can just ignore the later stuff if you want.

>>50372819
>You rolled a DD3.5 monk
>Very low starting abilities but, through skill and determination, you hit level 20
>Enter the BBEG.
>He is also a monk.
>You fight and you won but barely.
>Let the BBEG beaten but alive because you're supposed to be CG after all... and your INT and WIS suck !!

"-What level was that guy, DM ?"
"-You'll never know"

>Find the DM's notes lying around
>Have a peek
>BBEG was only level 2... but had insane abilities
>STR so high it helped him to match your own attack bonus and damage output
>DEX so high his AC was through the roof
>CON so high his hp were close to yours
>WIS, INT and CHA aren't as monstruous but still high enough it makes him a smug bastard with good will saves and tons of skills
>Got some other good stuffs from his racial template

>Background :
BBEG is a mutant who was just born that good.
Used to get his way since forever because he could take it easily.
Got evil because never saw the point of ethics.
Either killed or recruited anybody he came across.
Eventually didn't even get any form of physical work because that's what the shitton of underlings are for.

>Basically, a little emperor who got absurdly lucky on the genetic roulette.
>Racial Level Adjustement : +40

(cont)

>>50389660
(cont)

>You think the DM is cheating
>You also think the concept is cool
>Damn, if that guy had ever trained...
>Ohshit.gif
>You let him live...

>>50373899
>In-continuity it makes no sense. But I understand Toriyama's reasoning: everyone loves Frieza so let's bring him back

Considering we have seen other universe versions of him, (Frost) and in the latest Super episodes, the idea of alternate timelines... wouldn't it have been better and less ham-fisted to just bring in a "what if" Freeza/Freiza?

I mean Frost survived... what if after what happened to him, he returned to his Universe determined to wipe out the Saiyans before they reach that state? What if he followed Goku and friends back to their universe, seeking revenge?

It just very "Bring back Freeza - oh and he's more powerful now*"

*I know they had to as after Cell Games, Training in the Time Chamber, etc he'd be a joke (even Trunks rekt him) but still...

>>50382889
>no trabbu

>>50389717
Nah it would have been better if Frieza somehow got his hands on a hyperbolic time chamber of his own in the after life.
If your okay with golden asspull, at least have it make sense. Even if he's just doing intense aerobics in that damn thing for years it's better than that crap.