Muggles in D&D

>>50329132
>Tell me why I'm wrong

Tome of Battle and Path of War exist.

>>50329132
Stop playing 3.5, faglord.

But that's where magical party members buff and dieties...

>>50329149
And are perfectly acceptable options.

I'm talking to/about the fighterfags who throw a fit when you suggest they take a ToB/PoW/Gish class, and instead paradoxically bitch and moan about how they can't keep up as BMX bandit while refusing to play any class on par with Angel Summoner or accept any class buffs that bring them up to the versatility level of Angel Summoner.

If you're gonna insist on building a fighter, and refuse any options/alternatives that would make you any good, don't whine when you can't keep up with most of the other classes.

Or, rather: if you're going to go out of your way to build Colossus, and refuse to have multiple powers, don't bitch about how Dr. Strange is more fun to play because he has multiple powers.

>>50329202
>buff
buffs don't grant you your own utility powers, and you can already murder just fine. The problem is that is your one-trick.

>deities
what about them?

Yes, I could have a deity make them into a champion of some kind and grant them a handful of divine utility powers that synergize well with their existing combat prowess, but most fightingmanfags throw a fit of "not-my-muggle!" if you try it.

>>50329203
See:

>>50328439
>>50328321
>>50327318
These guys, and people like them.

>>50329132
Beowulf.

And perhaps if some people weren't insistent that casters be gods capable of doing anything in 6 seconds without fail, martial would have an easier time keeping up.

You only 'need magic' to keep up if magic is OP for some reason.

>>50329132
>ok
>yes, but its not YOU arbitrarily restricting you, it's the system design limiting your fightyman options
>yes
>yes, but that should not be happening with classes presented as equals

>>50329203
And now you go into autismal exaggeration.

Fighter is not an NPC class, it's a PC class and they should be on the level with PC classes.
Preferably by doing it in the system acknowledging their superhuman physicalness. Adding spell-slinging is a different flavour of a character, after all.

>Or, rather: if you're going to go out of your way to build Colossus, and refuse to have multiple powers, don't bitch about how Dr. Strange is more fun to play because he has multiple powers.
If you're playing superheroes you can have a platter of groundpound/shockwave attacks to go with your Colossus shtick.

>>50329265
>Beowulf.
What about Beowulf?

He kills Grendel? Great, so he's like, a level 6 character.

Beowulf is Peak-Mundane-Martial.

And he's like fucking level 6ish. That's the problem.

Beowulf more or less kills a troll. A level 20 character fights demon-princes and colossal dragons, and potentially literal cthulhu. If you hit Level 30 or equivalent, I would expect you to be killing actual gods. All such characters should have more up their sleeve than "I hit stuff".

Beyond 5-6 you should be going full wuxia, jumping 35 feet, running on water, balancing on twig-thin branches, and wall running, prince-of-persia style, at the very least, and as the levels climb up past 10, you'll need more than that.

You can already murder shit just fine. It's in every other way that you're a fucking benchwarmer.

>>50329320
Yeah, just forget the time he held his breath for a literal week, swimming in full plate across the sea and other shit like that.

>>50329302
>yes, but that should not be happening with classes presented as equals
No, it shouldn't. I agree.

>Fighter is not an NPC class, it's a PC class and they should be on the level with PC classes.
They should be, but they're not. They're somewhere between commoner and a reasonable character class.

>If you're playing superheroes you can have a platter of groundpound/shockwave attacks to go with your Colossus shtick.
Fighter does just fine in combat, but sure. Those would be fitting extra powers.

I am not saying that the classes should not be equally viable.

I am saying if you're unwilling to accept a character with superhuman capabilities in order to keep up with your friends in a game where everything has superhuman characteristics, (see >>50329262 and >>50328562
>it's not remotely D&D at that point. That's more a combative Ars Magica. D&D is the game where a non-magical knight when up against the goddess of dragons herself, a foe that the greatest mage of his generation couldn't beat and struck her down.
),

then you can't bitch about it later and expect any sympathy.

>>50329364
It's uh, been a while. I don't remember any of that shit.

Allowing mundane types to do shit like that would help. It probably wouldn't be enough, but it would help.

>>50329320
Really? Being sixth level lets you hold your breath for hours? That's news to be.

And your entire argument is flawed anyway, since you're making the assumption that 3.5 spellcasting is the only sort of way spellcasting can work in any setting, which is just dumb.

How many times have you seen a work of fiction with a master necromancer, horde of skeletons and all, who goes to sleep for 8 hours and is suddenly an expert in divination? Or pyromancy? Or all of these at once? And to do any of this requires no lengthy rituals, but instead just mere seconds of time.

Of course martials are benchwarmers when you're comparing heroes of myth to gods. Actually, scratch that. I don't even think Greek gods have the sheer versatility a 3.5 wizard does.

Give an example of a magic user in fiction or mythology who you would consider to be level 20, if Beowulf is level 6.

I think one of the issues is that when someone wants to be a proper fighter, they want to feel like a proper fighter rather than a spellcaster whose magic ability is hitting things with a sword.

I certainly feel that way, and one of the new players I was with felt the same. Obviously this doesn't apply to everyone.

So the issue then, is that they want to play a game where combat itself is dirt simple for them, other than positioning, and yet they can still compare to other members of the party - spellcasters in particular.

I do believe that extraordinary or supernatural abilities could solve it. I think they'd prefer extraordinary as it technically isn't magic. It could be something like having the combat experience hone their body and skills, providing more passive bonuses than you normally get.

I think they hold some right to complain because they have a playstyle they want to experience and it's struggling. It's not an optimal playstyle, but tweaks are possible and if everyone optimizes then you've really limited the number of playstyle available. It is a game designed to be fun after all.

>>50329431
Supernatural =/= magic. Get it through your goddamn thick skull, or stop fucking cunting about it.

>>50329387
Given that I'd peg Dr. Strange at somewhere around 15ish, that's going to be entirely D&D characters, or perhaps Overlord.

That's my point. D&D is a game that covers the full range from low power to very high power.

every class should cover that range, and you can't cover the range of "street urchins to named archangels" if you're going to insist that your class can't have any abilities beyond what an olympic athlete can manage. It just doesn't fucking work.

>>50329431
Then they need to be willing to except extraordinary abilities that can compete with magic. And that's fine.

But if you want to play your grim & gritty mundane detective or medieval soldier, then don't expect it to work out beyond the low levels, because the high levels are when you should be approaching the power of archangels and demon-lords.

If that's what you want to play, stick to e6, and let other people have fighters that can actually keep up at higher levels.

>>50329431
I think the thing OP fails to reconcile is that people want their fighters to be mundane, but he doesn't believe mundane characters capable of awesome feats.

Rather than taking their extreme levels of durability and strength to their logical conclusion, as they can swim through lava and bite through rock with ease, he feels the need to codify it with 'supernatural utility powers' or 'god blessings'.

If I'm playing a mundane fighter and get to that point, I don't need a feature telling me that I've gained the supernatural ability to smash through rock. Just let me smash through the damn rock, mundanely, and stop insisting that anything outside of what can happen in real life must be a magical effect.

>>50329203
I can build a fighter that beats the Paizo adventure paths by himself without using any 3rd party content. You overestimate how difficult they are.

>>50329479
I think the OP's point is that D&D allows fighters to stay mundane only at the low levels, and you cannot keep pretending to be just a regular joe at high levels when the game mechanics push you into accepting supernatural powers. You can of course gimp yourself purposefully by not using magic and magic items, but then you shouldn't complain about the other players overshadowing you and your ability to contribute.

>>50329464
>if you're going to insist that your class can't have any abilities beyond what an olympic athlete can manage

No, that's YOU insisting that. I already pointed to Beowulf as an example. He isn't a demi-god. He isn't magic. He's doing these incredible feats because he's capable. He is at least level 10, if not higher.

Why not look to AD&D instead, where fighters were godly at all levels without fancy powers through having the ability to shrug off most of anything and kill most of anything with ease, while Wizards had to cower and hide because spells actually took minutes of time to cast and could be interrupted with a dart.

Why do you insist that Wizards be gods and then complain when people don't want you altering Fighters to be Wizards so they can be gods as well?

If you wanted to play a game with only Wizards, just say so.

>>50329500
Curious, how would you go about doing that?

>>50329479
OP Here.

Nope.

I object to fighterfags bitching about not being able to keep up, while despising any capability to do awesome things.

They throw a fit if you redefine skill DCs to allow cool shit at the upper levels, for instance.

I dont care whether you fluff it as a magical effect or not. Not in the slightest.

I care when you insist that "real fighting men can't do X because it would not make sense for someone to do in real life".

X, could be:
>Determining some of an enemy's stats just by looking at them (CR, HP, and which save is their lowest, for example).
>Jumping large distances.
>Running long distances along or up a wall prince of persia style.
>Running on water.
>Double-jumping.
>Flash-step type shenanigans.
>Travel powers for teleportation of any kind.
>Probability control.
or whatever. I don't care *WHAT* else they can do, or how it's fluffed, I just want them to be able to do something level-appropriate BESIDES murder.

Point is, all you can currently do is kill things, and I'm sick of being told it's no longer D&D if the fighter can do cool shit and keep up, by the same people who then bitch that the wizard/cleric/bard/druid/paladin/magus can all do cool shit, and he feels less useful.

>>50329520
Well, could the AD&D fighter duplicate Beowulf's achievements without the help of magic, at any level? I just don't see D&D as a system being able to support 'mundane characters doing awesome feats' concept. It's built around characters supplementing their ability with magic.

>>50329500
>You overestimate how difficult they are.
I'm not talking about adventure difficulty.

I don't doubt that's possible.

>>50329512
is more or less the problem. They won't accept the ability to do any level-appropriate cool shit, under any definition, but then still bitch and moan that the other players can do more cool shit than them.

>>50329132
Anyone who thinks Fighters shouldn't get supernatural abilities at higher levels to keep up with a high-magic world is a fucking idiot. Even if they come from training, they're beyond the limitations of 'reality', like monks.
This should be a fucking sticky.

>>50329524
Just optimize him out the ass.

First I'm playing as a human.

I would use a Eldritch Guardian + Mutation Warrior fighter first of all and grab a Sage Familiar. I now have my required knowledge skill covered. Then I VMC Barbarian. I never take classes levels in Barbarian, just use it for VMC. As a human I consider taking FCB in either HP or skill ranks. Skill ranks are valiable for non-knowledge skills I need.

The most dangerous time is level 3 or lower, as the build hasn't kicked in and HP is scarce. After level 3 the character turns on completely and is no longer in danger of losing encounters. By level 8 he can by himself take on encounters in the book solo easily. To survive early on I take Tribal Scars, putting my level 1 HP at ~20. Saves I can optimize separately like a proper autist. Likely will have to take things like Heroic Defiance as failing a debilitating save becomes much more dangerous alone.

UMD becomes valuable to activate wands more than anything to stay healed as between encounters he is gonna need to go back to full.

From here on out I just optimize him to hell and back. His saves are very high as is his HP. Using discoveries he can fly, using feats he can teleport. He has plenty of skill ranks once he buys a int headband to cover non-knowledge skills he requires.

On a whole it'd be rough, but doable. I've build fighters strong enough to do it before.

>>50329545
>I object to fighterfags bitching about not being able to keep up, while despising any capability to do awesome things.

Alright, that I can concede to. Where I contest is when people try and 'fix' it by giving Fighters effects they label magical or supernatural and wonder why the people who want mundane fighters are complaining.

I'm fine with martials doing epic stuff, I just want it to be because of their skill rather than it being some supernatural thing.

If I were playing a mundane ranger, for example. I don't want the ability to supernaturally teleport home. I want the ability to have my survival skills and tracking so high that I could navigate my way home from the bottom of hell in a day.

Not something one could do in real life, but also not reliant on magic or gods, save for the one portal to jump through to transfer planes.

>>50329320
>Beowulf more or less kills a troll.

Didn't he also stab the troll's mother, who was basically an eldritch abomination, to death afterwards?

>>50329580
Literally in pathfinder fighters can use their warrior's spirit to infuse their sword with magic powers on the fly. They can teleport, inflict curses, mind control, and more using Item Mastery (which they can get as a bonus feat using the Advanced Weapon Training feat). Fighters can grow wings and fly (certain archetypes). Hell they got plenty of magic.

>>50329320
I should also mention he killed the troll with his bare hands while also butt-naked.

>>50329520
You mentioned Beowulf. Sure, I underestimated his level, and you pointed out some shit he could do that I did not recall at all.

Beowulf is in fact a step in the right direction.

>Why do you insist that Wizards be gods and then complain when people don't want you altering Fighters to be Wizards so they can be gods as well?
The wizards are already nearly gods, thats what level 20 IS.

I want a level 20 character to be as good as expected from a level 20 character, PERIOD.

The piddly fighters are only level 20 in attack damage, not in any other way. That's my problem with it.

I'm entirely happy having mundane or slightly larger than life fighters, at the levels where that is appropriate.

At level 20 that is no longer appropriate, because at level 20 you fight colossal dragons and demon lords and archfey and archangels. You can build your own realities. That is what level 20 already is.

My problem with fighter fags who hate the idea of buffing the fighter is that their idea of a level 20 fighter is more or less just a level 5 fighter with better damage; and that's just not how the difference in levels works.

>>50329545
>I object to fighterfags bitching about not being able to keep up, while despising any capability to do awesome things
Who are you even talking about? I usually see the exact opposite. Wizardfags justifying fighters being shit because they have no magic to take advantage of.

>>50329593
And I don't rightly care what the origin of the capabilities is, I just expect characters of a given character level to have the appropriate degree of versatility and raw non-numerical power, and find it infuriating to hear person after person bitch about their fighter being incapable while throwing a fit any time someone tries to give them capabilities more like their peers.

>>50329603
>>50329586
Man do I wish more fighter players would actually take this stuff.

They're still on the weak side in terms of versatility, but this would go a long ways.

>>50329664
In my experience, wizard players just want the fighter to do better, and fighter players throw a fit when you try to have fighters do extraordinary things, while simultaneously ignoring the extraordinary things they can already do.

People like this guy,
>>50328562 and others like him I seem to run into once a month.

>>50329685
>And I don't rightly care what the origin of the capabilities is

And some people do. Thus, trying to tell fighters to sprout magical wings and shoot lasers from their swords doesn't sit well with some people.

Personally, I'd prefer caster versatility brought down and martial versatility brought up to somewhere near the middle. You don't need batman wizard levels of power to be a level 20 character and fight demons.

In terms of 3.5, a better mid-point would be stuff like Bard or the Tome of Battle where you're specialized, but have a bit of extra versatility outside your main thing, or you sacrifice that specialization for more versatility, but have less raw power because of it.

I believe that a Fighter with more implicit options and maneuvers to choose from could fit perfectly well alongside a Wizard who only had Illusions. At epic levels, they can start achieving those sorts of epic deeds that fit with their characters.

Not everyone needs to sprout wings and fly once they hit level 7

>>50329708
I expect this problem wouldn't come up so often if they did a better job defining character levels, what types of characters/creatures have that level, what sorts of things you should be capable of at a given character level, and how much versatility characters of that level should have.

Fighterfags often seem to have this idea that the game is far lower powered than it actually is at the higher levels, because of past editions where they don't have the variety, or power, only the ability to murder better. Many of them seem to have no idea how the other 70% of the character classes stack up.

>>50329738
Does playing with Psionics and ToB actually keep everyone viable and happy? If so, I'd bite the bullet and pull out 3.5 again with those classes exclusively, justify it with the setting.

>>50329741
This. Basically it comes down to differing expectations, one player wants a gritty low powered adventures crawling in the mud, but the game itself turns increasingly high fantasy super heroes campaign as the characters level up. At that point the player has to either accept it and start optimizing, or keep complaining about getting stuck as the BMX bandit. Neither option is very fun for some people, hence this thread.

>>50329738
>And some people do.
>Entire post entirely misses the point.

>"All I can do is kill stuff"
>"I hate how I useless I am outside combat now that we're not low level chumps"
>"Noncombat options better than what regular real life people can do? Comparable in power to what the magic-capable classes can do? Fuck that, what do I look like, a fucking wizard?"

>>50329770
>Psionics and ToB only
yes. Some classes will still be a bit better than others, but yes, that works fine. Until you get that guy who bitches about how he can't play a fucking fighter.

You can accomplish the same thing, but much better, with Pathfinder using only Ultimate Psionics and Path of War 1&2. If you really want to allow Paizo classes, too, the ones to look at are the other T3/T4 classes.

>>50329784
So why not acknowledge how the game works, and run a low level campaign when you want low level, and a high level campaign when you want high level, and the full range when you want the full progression; rather than insisting that your fighting man class needs to stick to low-level shit in all ways but HP damage?

>>50329685
That guy is just saying a non magical guy should be on par with a magical guy, all else being equal. How does that translate into fighters shouldn't be able to do awesome things? He literally says, "Look at this awesome thing this fighter did. Why isn't that replicated within the system?"

Fighters can do awesome things without just giving them magical powers.

>wizard players just want the fighter to do better
Wizard players want fighters to not be fighters, is what you mean. It has nothing to do with playing a fighter optimally.

I, too, rely on memes rather than actual play experience, since that would mean meeting actual people!

>>50329825
>Wizard players want fighters to not be fighters, is what you mean. It has nothing to do with playing a fighter optimally.
At level 20?

Yeah, at that point your fighter should be fucking Iron Man, not Daredevil.

>>50329839
Who are you talking about?

In-play, most of the fighter players whine about not being as useful outside of combat, just to a lesser extent than the ones on the internet.

And I've done a lot of gaming, but all of it is in meatspace. I can't vouch for your roll20 games or pbps.

>>50329867
>At level 20?
Especially at level 20, as the power gap becomes more meaningful at higher levels. But instead of just letting fighters smash open locks and jump large gaps like a wizard can with a simple unlock or flying spell, the system busts out a bunch of formulas where your improvements have only a mediocre impact.

>>50329953
100%

Wizard players want high level fighter players to be as useful as an equal level Bard, Paladin, or Magus/Eldritch Knight.

Not as useful as a level 3 magus but with level-appropriate damage output and defenses.

>>50329824
That's the question, isn't it? I guess some people are just stuck with one idea how the game should be played and refuse to budge. They'd probably be happier with an OSR clone with lower power level in general.

>>50329974
The fighter players would, yeah, I expect so.

The wizard players like what they get to play as, they're just sick of the fighter players whining about it.

Or, if not OSR, I bet the fighter players would fucking love d20 Conan. And I'd be happy to play it with them. But not all the time. When I want to play 3.x/Pathfinder, I enjoy my T1/2/3 high-level gameplay, and that is explicitly why I'm playing it.

>>50329162
Comparing us to OP is an insult to faglords, anon.

>>50329162
>because other people whine, you should stop playing that thing i dont like
3.5 is fun, so long as youre not playing a basic fighter/rogue/spellless ranger /core only monk. same with pathfinder. its why our group keeps going back to pf again and again in addition to the other games we play.

we also play 5e, but its not so good for high powered campaigns, or campaigns with pvp as a plausible possibility.

>>50330225
>5e not so good for campaigns with pvp as a plausible possibility.
Out of curiosity why you think so?

>>50330266
The difference in math between how PCs are built and how Enemies are built.

PC damage is set up to take out roughly 25-45%(call it 35%) of Monster HP if you hit with your attacks. Monsters have ~2.8-8.7x(Call it an average of 5.75x) the HP of PCs.

0.35%HP*5.75x=201.25%HP

Instead of taking out a third of your target's HP like if you were hitting a monster, the odds are good you will drop them in a single round if you target a PC instead, with your average damage output being double their HP.

>>50330266
Compared to Pathfinder, where monster HP and damage output is roughly equal to a like-level PC's HP and damage output (PC damage is still higher with any kind of charop, but nowhere near to the same degree as in 5e).

>>50330363
Huh, didn't think about it that way. Interesting!

>>50330388
If I were the one designing 5e, monster HP would have been on nearly the same scale as PC HP, and PC damage would have been roughly 1/5 what it is now, for that reason.

yes that's true but
>playing d&d
it's totally like you WANT to roleplay silly over the top animu magical shit and not classical fantasy.
Well at least you're honest about that, unlike dnd fighterfags who are trying hard to achieve the impossible because "muh most popular bestest system" and are too blind to see that their beloved system is kicking them right in the balls at every turn.

>>50329132
Issue #1 with 3.PF fighters is that the game doesn't properly protect their status as the biggest, baddest beatstick on the block. There's a place for gish classes, summoned monsters, and animal companions, but they need to lag behind fighters (instead of easily surpass them with stacking bonuses).

Issue #2 is that they lack "utility" (aka multitarget instant save or lose against any save you want by level 5). Obviously the solution here is to nerf "utility", not spread that shit even farther around.

I'm not averse to more supernatural fighters but entirely mundane fighters can work just fine. As long as they are irreplaceable and necessary, they will be viable.

>>50329203
>I'm talking to/about the fighterfags who throw a fit when you suggest they take a ToB/PoW/Gish class, and instead paradoxically bitch and moan about how they can't keep up as BMX bandit while refusing to play any class on par with Angel Summoner or accept any class buffs that bring them up to the versatility level of Angel Summoner.

well
have fun beating that strawman, i guess?

>>50330560
the rest of the game works fine and needs no nerfs. fighter is the outlier, its the one in need of fixing.

in pathfinder i can point to all the fighter buffing options and say "you picked the shitty fighter features this is your own fault. you want a respec, go ahead"

or i can say "all fighters have the myrmidon archetype" and that will also fix most of the issue.

>D&D its like you WANT silly over the top animu magic shit.
Thats what D&D is good for.

if i wanted classical fantasy I'd look at HARP, GURPS, or Pendragon, or Unisystem.

if I wanted pulp sword and sorcery I'd look at d20 Conan, or Cinematic Unisystem, or GURPS.

>>50329132
The WORST problem of D&D is separation of "mundane" and "magical" with magical being always strictly better. When you look at it, everything terrible or inconsistent in D&D stems from it

>mud hut villages existing in Monty Python Peasants reality bubble right next to forgotten technomagical catacombs
>"if you want to be good you MUST be magic, but i don't want to be magic, but i want to be good, but i don't know how" mentality
>Magic being comic book super powers with no downside whatsoever
>hundreds of other examples

there are thousands of other examples, but there's one thing that's at the root of it all - the insistence that in magical mythical world of D&D said magical and mythical is lazilycoverin mundane like a fancy carpet covering a dung pile.

>>50330615
meant to quote
>>50330545
for the second half.

>>50330582
strawman implies the scenario doesnt actually happen. ive run into this an obnoxious number of times, including yet another time today which is the reason for this thread.

>>50330632
I'll second it. I've seen it happen as well. Its utterly insane, and I don't know why those stupid fucks act like that.

>>50330632
>>50330641
Is it a D&D thing

I never played D&D (okay, once and it was 5e) and i haven't met these people.

>>50330653
yes ive only seen it in d&d.
most other rpgs are classless to begin with, and also most other rpgs dont cover the same powerscale range that d&d does.

>>50330653
Its a 3.PF thing. Its not really a thing in 5e.

>>50329132

>Tell me why I'm wrong, if you can.

Because
-not every character wants to play someone with supernatural/magical abilities
-players have free choice of what class they want to play, and it's not up to you to tell them how to have fun
-multiclassing exists if you want to mix things up later
-the DM can always step in and change things up if for some reason a player is getting bored of their character as is
and most importantly
-by level 20 you're expected to have like nearly something like 750,000 gp net worth, and can just buy magic items to do things that caster can do, and negate the effects of magic on you, so it's not like you will never get to do magic stuff

I've played plenty of non magic users before, and I've never had a problem with having fun.

>>50330653
the mechanical issue still exists in 5e, but less so, and rather than these loonies wanting the fighter buffed to the power levels of the other 75-80% of the game, or choosing a game that actually does low magic fantasy or sword and sorcery, they demand the majority of the game should be redesigned and dragged down to their level by pulling out nearly everything people like about them.

>>50330723
nah, still alive and well in 3.9 edition

File: tomo_rebirth.png (82KB, 477x319px) Image search: [Google]

82KB, 477x319px

>>50330760
>and can just buy magic items

>>50330827

Sorry if facts trigger you.

>>50330842
>buying magic items
>a "fact" in D&D

crawl back to the paizo forums where you belong

>>50330863

Want me to start posting specific pages and quotes or something?

>>50330872
feel free to post any post canon quotes

ill ignore them

>>50330760
Magic items alleviate the power gap and not fully, and call me a weeaboofag if you want, but i prefer strength of my character stemming from -himself- rather than from being covered in magic items like a christmas tree.

People demanding "muh strictly mundane hardened veteran fighter who only knows how to sword" are a silly bunch, but there's an underlying problem with "mundane-magical" dichotomy that shouldn't exist in high-magic setting such as D&D.

>>50330897

pg 137 of the DMG explains go limits for a city, and on page 142
>"The magic items described in Chapter 7 all have prices. The assumption is that, while they are rare, magic items can be bought and sold as any other commodity can be. The prices given are far beyond the reach of almost everyone, but the very rich, including mid- to high-level PCs, can buy and sell these items or even have spellcasters make them to order."

>>50330932
as i said

post canon

>>50330467
>for that reason
That reason is you are trying to enable pvp bullshit, which has rarely ever, if ever, worked in D&D, which is expressly designed to be a teamwork based game.
You are trying to enable the game to not work, anon, the way it is supposed to, by shitlords who want to stroke their epeen.

>>50330863
>>50330827
>what are the wealth by level rules
unless your gm is using the inherent bonuses *optional rule* replacement mechanic, WBL is a rule, and an important one, at that. in 3.x, your level-appropriate-gear is a critical part of your character.

>>50330902

>Magic items alleviate the power gap and not fully,
With a simple ring of spell turning, a martial character becomes extremely hard for a caster to deal with.
And at level 20, optimized martial characters can regularly kill casters in 1 round.
Maybe by power gap, you meant utility though?
And that's true, but a fighter for example obviously isn't a utility class, and its up to the player to decide what role they want.
And utility of casters being useful varies depending on the focus and execution of the campaign.


>and call me a weeaboofag if you want, but i prefer strength of my character stemming from -himself- rather than from being covered in magic items like a christmas tree.
There's nothing wrong with that.
It just means you prefer a certain kind of character over another.

>People demanding "muh strictly mundane hardened veteran fighter who only knows how to sword" are a silly bunch,
If that's what they choose to play,
and you seem to suggest there's a fair number of them,
then why does it bother you?

>but there's an underlying problem with "mundane-magical" dichotomy that shouldn't exist in high-magic setting such as D&D.
The setting is whatever you want it to be dude.

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>>50330966
>in 3.x

>>50330949
okay anon, I understand now
(*^_^)

@50330949
>post canon
>a direct quote from the DMG about buying, selling, having items made to order isn't good enough
You don't deserve a (you) from me.

>>50330960
>epeen
>thinks everyone plays shitty roll20 games or whatever with strangers instead of meatspace with people they actually like.
kek.

ive basically never had any negative pvp experiences, they all added to the game in entertaining and meaningful ways.

>>50330982
>>50330983
sorry it was confusing

i meant post-canon (fan fiction etc), not that i wanted you to post some canon quotes, re read the sentence with that understanding

>>50330970
ntgb
i agree with most of this, but there are setting constraints imposed by the game mechanics you play with.

>>50330970
>then why does it bother you?

It doesn't bother me much, but i feel like they're having strange expectations, both of D&D(which doesn't really support non-magical fighters, like, at all) and hardened veteran archetype (who, despite everything a veteran SHOULD know only has 5 skill points per level to go around and proficiencies in swording, swording 2:swording harder and swording in a fancy way that only works with 2 enemies from an entire monster manual despite being a high level swording feat, see point 1).

>>50330970
>With a simple ring of spell turning, a martial character becomes extremely hard for a caster to deal with.
That is false on face, and you know it. It requires you to be single target, which means even a fireball, which is not a targeting spell, goes right past it.
>martials can kill casters
That isn't even what we are talking about, and even if it was, casters have long had spells like "I win initiative".
>you mean utility
Everything that you have said so far is telling me that you don't actually understand the limits that casters can push in 3.pf because you've never seen them played that well, whereas you've seen the basic ubercharger build which can come online within 6 levels, 4 feats and 2 magic items.

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>>50331011
>>50330970
Ah, yes. Items. Let's look at those, shall we.

>>50330976
well, we're in a thread talking about how fighter players bitch and moan retardedly in the edition thats most fun to play a mage, and thats 3.x. so, yes.

in 3.x, wbl is an important rule, the enemies even assume youre getting level appropriate magic item bonuses. in 5e, however, magic items are optional, and have a smaller effect on your math.

>>50331025
For the record? Making chainmail takes about a WEEK.

>>50331005

Well if everyone wants to use a setting that does work well within the game mechanics, I don't see a problem with changing the rules as needed.

Or just use any other system you like.

>>50331007

It sounds like you've got some really specific problems with how D&D handles martial classes.
You can't please everyone I guess, but it was at least a popular system, and lots of people got to have fun playing it.

If you don't like it that's fine.
Personally, when my group plays 3.5/PF, it starts out normal, but eventually descends into overpowered madness, where people are chucking cannonballs faster than the speed of sound, summoning elder gods to do their bidding, and becoming high tech assassin robots.
So I guess I'm in the same boat as you somewhat.

You know, I've been playing 1st edition Mutants and Masterminds recently.
And maybe it'd be more your speed.
It's basically 3.5 mechanics, but without classes.
You just build your character using power points.
We home ruled a few minor things we didn't like, but beside that, it's been a lot of fun.

And you don't even need to make up your own rules to throw cannonballs at mach 3.

>>50331005
>>50330902
>>>50330760
>there's an underlying problem with "mundane-magical" dichotomy that shouldn't exist in high-magic setting such as D&D.
if you want to drop it, ban plain cavalier/gunslinger/fighter/rogue/barbarian/spellless ranger/slayer, and replace them with other classes and/or make some archetypes innate.

maybe all fighters are either psionic or myrmidons, in addition to any other archetypes. maybe you just cut fighter and the player makes due with the 6 PoW classes.

>>50330966
3e, i.e. Diablo on paper, was never real D&D, and I'm glad that 5e acknowledges that

>>50329132
>>A fighting man, dashing rogue, nonmagical ranger, and barbarian without ancestor magics are perfectly fine concepts for low level D&D.
>They cease to be reasonable character options after the low-mid levels (like 5ish)
See, that is why the scope of D&D is complete bullshit. Mere 6 of 20 levels are for new heroes to reasonably capable human beings. After that, it starts getting increasingly preposterous. Buw what can I say? That is the US fantasy genre for ya - where suspension of disbelief has to take the backseat behind "cool" and "epic" power fantasies.

>>50331011

>That is false on face, and you know it. It requires you to be single target, which means even a fireball, which is not a targeting spell, goes right past it.

I said it makes the character extremely hard to deal with.
Being limited to aoe spells only doesn't fit that description?

>That isn't even what we are talking about,
It's hard to read someone's mind and know what they're talking about when they use vague words like "power gap"
And besides, I'm not even sure you're the person that post was from.

>Everything that you have said so far is telling me that you don't actually understand the limits that casters can push in 3.pf because you've never seen them played that well,
No, I actually know how to make yourself 100% immortal with a single high level spell and a single magic item using only core rules. (player handbook+DMG only)
But I haven't ever seen a system that can't be abused, and the fact that lots of different classes can make cheesy builds really doesn't bother me.

>>50331077
it would be better to ban the snowflake classes though

the fighter is the baseline for what the game is supposed to be about, he is litterally the original class from before there were classes, before they added the magic user as a second option

>>50331089
couldnt agree more

they should have never removed the hit die restriction

>>50329320
>Beowulf is Peak-Mundane-Martial.
>And he's like fucking level 6ish. That's the problem.
>Beowulf more or less kills a troll. A level 20 character fights demon-princes a
Well, yes. The power levels of D&D are typical for what we have to consider US fantasy, which is at times detached from its european roots. If we compare the european fantasy genre, picking two of its most outstanding games Warhammer Fantasy and DSA (Dark Eye), we can see that power levels are generally toned down to sane levels here.

>inb4 munchkinism in those games
I know it exists, I have been there. It's still GENERALLY distinctly below US fantasy levels.

>>50331007
>D&D(which doesn't really support non-magical fighters, like, at all)
>Core class
>not supported at all
You don't think this might be what some people are having issues with? You can't really blame people for having incorrect expectations when one of the basic roles is really a trick choice.

>>50330363
Incidentally this is one of the major reasons I hated 5E.

>>50330970
>And at level 20, optimized martial characters can regularly kill casters in 1 round.
You mean an optimized-for-caster-killing martial can kill a caster that has zero defenses against them.

That's not the same thing as being able to kill a caster who isn't fucking retarded.

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>>50329320
>beowulf is 6th level martial

>>50329555
At High levels they could.

Because Beowulf is a high level fighter.

>>50331118
I'm not saying these people are wrong

i'm saying D&D is shit

But it's strange how some people are so adamant in that mundane fighters SHOULD work, despite all the evidence that they don't. It's not having wrong expectations, it's clinging to these wrong expectations.

Personally i just use ToWFM classes as >>50331077 said, and yes, i had people bitch at me for this. It's weird.

>>50331124

No, it depends on a lot.
Like mentioned before, if the martial character has a ring of spell turning, the caster has severely limited options, and not much chance of stopping the guy before it's too late.

I'm sure you could build and counter build back and forth, but the point is that it's not nearly as 1 sided as people think.
Though half the time when I bring this up, people say they weren't talking about pvp, so maybe not as many people believe that as I think?

>>50331134
note how Conan was also psionic, because there was no other way for a fighting man to do the shit Conan did through sheer willpower and grit?

>>50331144
No, it really doesn't. Back on Gleemax people tried to do this with level 20 Fighters vs level 10 Wizards and hey, guess what, the Fighters couldn't even touch a Wizard that knew what they were doing.

>>50331142

What does saying they don't work even mean?
That's a very nebulous thing to say, and I feel like it's already been discussed to death both in this thread and in general.

>>50331142
But it's true that they should work.

>>50331154

Mind explaining how then?
A level 20 fighter according to the rules should have like three quarters of a million net worth.
Does he not have anything to resist something like hold person?

>>50329384
Feats of Beowulf

>Swam from Jutland ( Southern Finland or sweden ) To Denmark in full armor
>Slew Grendel the giant with his bare hands after the Magic sword gifted to him was broken on Grendel's skull
>Held his breath for weeks after he swam to fight grendel's mother at the bottom of the lake
>Slays Grendel's mother with a mundane sword.
>Carries Grendel's mother's head up the lake again
>Grendel's head needs two dozen men to DRAG it back to the Kingdom
>In his Old age, kills a great Red Dragon with only his Banner Bearer as backup.

The issue people are complaining about isn't that Fighters don't kill things fast enough, it's that feats of strength like lifting boulders, grappling enemies and so forth are shit, so Fighters only ever do "Full attack X times"

People want Fighters to be the Heroes of Legends and surprise surprise, even the most boneheaded did more than just swing a sword at something's feet until it died.

>>50331060
ntgb i could never deal with m&m's combat. i just hate it.

>>50331081
>diablo on paper.
Hardly. diablo wizards are pathetic in comparison.

>>50331089
>i dont like that d&d quickly goes up to demigod and superhero power levels
so play e6 or one of the many games that do a good job at human powered fantasy?
fantasy superheroes is more or less the only thing d&d is good at.

>>50331099
>1. d&d sucks for low magic. after you gut the magic theres very little remaining. if you want low magic d20 why not conan or fc, theyre avtually good at it.
>2. fighter is the baseline the game is designed around, we should just ban eberything else instead.
a. {citation needed}
b. even if you can prove that true in a previous edition, {citation needed} for it being true in 3.x.

>>50331108
youd really like conan. just saying. its great for that kind of game.

>>50331110
>other games have lower power levels
why is this relevant in the fantasy superheroes rpg?

>>50331118
its still largely the outlier at the bottom, and theyre still screaming that the rest of the game should be gutted rather than them playing one of the fighters better designed for this fantasy super heroes game.

if they want to play the conan rpg, they should just save everyone the trouble and do so rather than being butthurt that d&d isnt that, and once again, conan is a great game.

>>50331121
you do a lot of pvp?

>>50331134
>thief
>somehow relevant to the edition being discussed

>>50329132
You do realize that, after a certain point, fighters basically become motherfucking Gilgamesh right?

>>50331180
>you do a lot of pvp?
No, the 25-45% monster HP per offensive PC action. It has its roots in 4E, where it had a legitimate reason to exist. With 5E doing everything it can to kill the tactical combat aspect, it no longer has any reason to exist.

>>50331185
see this guy
>>50331177

>>50331193
so what % do you think it should be for the damage dealers?

>>50331166
Between the 5000 different methods of defensive cheese available to a Wizard, it's too hard to actually hit them, you can't be immune to everything they can do even with level 20 WBL, and feats are not good enough.

>>50331180
>youd really like conan. just saying. its great for that kind of game.

dungeons and dragons IS supposed to be that kind of game though

which is the point

>>50331180
What if I don't want to play a Grounded Fighter?

I want to play As Roland, or Sigmund or Beowulf.

>>50331203

You really sound like you're talking out your ass.

>>50331202
In AD&D it was 60% or more, in 3E once you filter out the retard builds it's 70% to oneshot levels.

>>50331212
Abrupt Jaunt

>>50331204
>its supposed to be good at conan
i cant think of any edition of d&d thats actually good at that, and it hasnt done it at all since pre-2e.

i would literally never choose d&d for such a campaign, its a fucking awful fit, and i do mean every edition ive seen from becmi to 5e.

>>50331211
then you shouldnt object to playing a fighter with badass superhuman capabilities like those characters. rules as written, id point you at fighter+ classes out of pow/pow2, otherwise id look into homebrewing a fighter patch to fit the campaign, and redefining what skill dcs accomplish to let you do extraordinary shit with high rolls.

>>50331230
fair enough. easy to change that one on the dm side though, cut enemy hp in half and suddenly youre doing 50-90% in damage on average.

>>50331248
>then you shouldnt object to playing a fighter with badass superhuman capabilities like those characters. rules as written, id point you at fighter+ classes out of pow/pow2, otherwise id look into homebrewing a fighter patch to fit the campaign, and redefining what skill dcs accomplish to let you do extraordinary shit with high rolls.

The Problem there is I shouldn't need to do this. Do I need to do this for Wizards Druids and Clerics? No.

>>50331248
>easy to change that one on the dm side though
Yeah, but the DM has to agree with you first, and even then why the fuck would I play 5E? Solving my HP issue doesn't solve my "wow literally every single one of these martials is less fun than the shittiest class in ToB" issue, or thinking that 5E's spell system is a clunkier, shittier version of 3.5 psionics but with spell preparation anyways, or that the system is not built to handle many of the off the wall classes like Totemist.

>>50331259
i never said all the options were well designed. the point of this thread is being frustrated with people insisting that the shittiest classes be what they play, unaltered, knowing full well that theyre the shittiest, and then still whining that the other classes are better.

>>50331238
Abrupt Jaunt is really some bullshit.

You can literally abrupt jaunt 12 times a day as an immediate action, and do it whenever anybody tries to hit you. Just blink 10 feet away so they don't hit you. At level 1, even.

>>50331269
I personally prefer 5e because it's not such a pile of complicated mechanics and hundreds of feats to balance... But if I had to choose an RPG to play for the rest of time, it would be neither.
It would be Fate.

>>50331276
Because when people step into a game about Swords, Sorcery and dashing heroes, nobody expects the Class designed to be the heroic sword wielder turns into a fucking chump halfway through the game.

>>50331248
>id point you at fighter+ classes out of pow/pow2, otherwise id look into homebrewing a fighter patch to fit the campaign, and redefining what skill dcs accomplish to let you do extraordinary shit with high rolls.
Or I could just play 4e, where fighter is probably the best single class in the entire game, starts off as Conan, turns into Beowulf and can become Cú Chulainn with less dying at the end.
As for Conan style swords and sorcery, D&D was inspired by them, but most editions have too much "magic as it's own thing" built into the system.
You could passably achieve it in 4e, because magic != anything beyond ordinary human the way it is on the rest of the editions (5e does try to mitigate it, PF just threw magic at the fighter at called it square).

>>50329479
This, right fucking here.
This is why I hate the generation that grew up on 3.pf, because they are the principal pushers of the mentality that anything beyond basic realism must be supernatural.

>>50331269
i assumed you were the gm. fair enough.

>why would i play 5e.
not that i disagree with most of your assessment (though i do prefer 5e spell progressions to 3e ones, and it has full spellpoint rules like psionics in the dmg).
>learning curve
5e is much less complicated, primarily due to the minimal number of trap options and trap classes. this is good for new players.
>more consistent math.
makes it easier to balance things as a gm. gm prep is much much faster in 5e.
>less tracking
faster combat ensues.
>larger playerbase
good if youre looking for players.

i play both, but those are the reasons to play 5e. i do prefer pathfinder though, as a player.

>>50331278
>if only one rpg for the rest of your life
i believe you spelled gurps wrong.

>>50331282
but everyone has known it for a decade and a half, and you will know that before you ever build a character unless youre somehow playing entirely with people who have never played before. so youve been warned, and decided to suck anyways.

>>50331287
i thought you were asking how to play such a character in the game being discussed. sure you could pick a different game. go nuts. 4e is decent for that sort of fighter with stunts gameplay. combat is quite a tedious slog sometimes, but the right gm can avoid that.

>>50331278
>I personally prefer 5e because it's not such a pile of complicated mechanics and hundreds of feats to balance...
I would agree with you if everything in 5E didn't go out of its way to be infinitely shittier versions of classes I've already played or based off of design ideas I would never touch with a ten foot pole because I consider the downsides absolutely fucking intolerable at a table.

Like, I hated 3E to the point where I would not play if I did not explicitly trust the DM beforehand. 5E managed to be worse than that for me.

>>50331307
What the fuck is wrong with supernatural, you little cunt? Abooboo, you're better then the mundane. So fucking what, Hero? What's so goddamn wrong with that? You are CLEARLY beyond the mundane, what about being labeled 'mundane' is such a MUST HAVE?

Supernatural =/= fucking magic, again.

>>50331307
>yet again someone new who didnt read enough of the thread to wrap their head around the topic of discussion and is arguing about something else entirely.

>>50331321
>I prefer Pathfinder

And here we have the crux of your argument. You're a Pathfinder autist. You defend your game religiously because you probably invested years of your life into it and as soon as someone comes along to rattle that cage, you get defensive and stupid.

People expect the core classes to have a semblance of Balance, people expect after a Decade and a half the inbred ivory tower retards who made Pathfinder would have fixed that.

Ironically I think they simply make it worse.

>>50331321
>You spelled gurps wrong
I've never actually ever played gurps, so I don't know if I like it or not.
I would totally try it if there was a group I could join. I'm pretty starved for RPGs right now.
>>50331331
I liked the way all of the base classes could split into their own personal subclasses to choose various abilities, without having to do all sorts of prestige class bullshit.

>>50331307
Sorry. But at what point was Beowulf suddenly NOT Supernatural?

The Issue here is the grade school Americans assuming Supernatural = Magic.

>>50329132
>>50329203
>>50329520
> He isn't a demi-god. He isn't magic. He's doing these incredible feats because he's capable. He is at least level 10, if not higher.
Yup. Watch this to see a high-level fighter in action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v77iXZI2Zqc

>>50329464
You're thinking like a murderhobo and completely missing the point of role playing games.
Using your own super heroes exemple. Heroes like Captain America exist and fill their roles without being less important than Iron Man, why? Hulk alone could do more than 50% of the entire Marvel roster yet the writers don't solve every story by making Hulk jumping through the roof and raping the BBEG.
If your mundane fighter is feeling useless compared to the wizards and being irrelevant to the story, the fault is in the person running your game. The system is unbalanced, but your game master can fix it and he should.

D&D is based on classic sword & sorcery stories. Was Conan powerless against wizards? Was Fafhrd completely useless in the story because Mouser could cast spells?
According to your logic, the Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser stories should have ended in their first adventure when they faced that warlock. But thats not the case, because the writers created ways for them to able to fight against spellcasters. The DM job is doing exactly that create the story around the players, not just computing the rolls and keeping track of the enemies and traps.

>>50331352
>Hulk alone could do more than 50% of the entire Marvel roster yet the writers don't solve every story by making Hulk jumping through the roof and raping the BBEG.
Mostly because they have to contrive like a motherfucker for reasons to keep Hulk away from the actual fight. Its a real problem, and makes for some shitass storytelling.

>>50331359
But thats the point, anon. It's storytelling, this isnt a moba game where everything should be balanced for people to compete with each other.

>>50331341
its about the same.

pathfinder is no revolution. its a better fleshed out 3.5 with a trimmed skill list, combat maneuvers that are easier to remember, and base classes that are actually supported with archetypes and character options. thats all.

they fixed nothing of note. its not a perfect game by any stretch. i just somewhat prefer its flaws to 5es flaws.

so, knowing that fighter is crap in pf (because its common knowledge and other players woyld warn you), why would you deliberately gibble yourself and then whine, rather than using the archetypes that fix your awful broken class, or classes that do what youre going for without the suck? why would ypu do so repeatedly?

>>50331362
Motherfucker, if one of your CLASS FEATURES invalidates my class, theres a goddamn problem.

Fuck your stupid mentality of "Balance is Bad". But fine, next game is a Cleric, Druid, and Wizard, and you, my dear retard, get to play a Monk. See how much you enjoy it.

Also, way to miss the point, where I said it is BAD STORYTELLING.

>>50331352
this is a game, not a book/movie. theres no writer to make sure everyone looks equally important despite drastic differences in power versatiliry and competence.

>>50331362
>>50331352

Your Argument is flawed because this also isn't a storybook.

You're saying we basically pull the punches of the story so that the fighter is useful.

The issue there is, whatever we do to assist the fighter storytelling wise, also means the Wizard has an easier time.

>>50331373
Hah, no, Pathfinder is not a perfectly fine game, The fact that they purposefully shit on monks is proof in the pudding.

I fixed my "Fighters are shit in PF" problem by not playing PF, no matter how many Archtypes they shit out won't fix it.

>>50331352
nobody is saying a fighter cant kill a wizatd. were saying fighter cant do anything else, and as a result , is boring to play.

>>50331352
I agree. But there is a problem you need to keep in mind, and it's a big one: Dungeons and Dragons, as a basic ruleset to build a roleplaying game, is shit. It's overly complex, with backwards mechanics and actively penalizes you if you don't know how to build your character. If you want to play a roleplaying game, it's much better to build off of something that isn't inherently a problem.

Yes, a good DM could create the story around a massively unbalanced weak-martial and godlike-caster system, but the problem is that the DM shouldn't need to. The DM should instead be able to do it where a caster is different than a martial, but still of relatively equal strength. That would be much easier for the DM to do.

Your average dungeon master isn't actually good enough to do what you're saying. But the thing is, if the system was balanced, the dungeon master doesn't need nearly as much skill in order to run a good game.

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>>50331388
>>50331383
Have an example.

>>50331345
>I liked the way all of the base classes could split into their own personal subclasses to choose various abilities
I would like this a lot more if, again, those subclasses weren't universally shittier than the equivalent classes I played before. Fighter/Wizard/EK, or Duskblade, or PF's Magus, are all a billion times more interesting than 5E's EK. Same thing with 3.5 Arcane Trickster or Unseen Seer or Beguiler vs 5E Arcane Trickster.

And even then, I found PF's archetypes or even 4E's system of picking one of your major features at the beginning and having several thematically related powers get extra bonuses or even new features entirely if you had the feature in question far better.

>>50331389
>3.5 edition Dungeons and Dragons, as a basic ruleset to build a roleplaying game, is shit. It's overly complex, with backwards mechanics and actively penalizes you if you don't know how to build your character. If you want to play a roleplaying game, it's much better to build off of something that isn't inherently a problem.
Fixed that for you, anon.
I remember back when all you needed was 10 strength to be a decent fighter, 10 int to be a decent wizard.
The 3.pf mindset has metastasized so badly that people like you think it was always like that.

>>50331375

>next game is a Cleric, Druid, and Wizard, and you, my dear retard, get to play a Monk. See how much you enjoy it.

You described exacly what every game with my group of rl friends was like. And yes, I did have fun playing that lone monk among spell spellcasters, because the DM wasnt shit and didnt design every challenge so that wizards could easily solve everything with a single spell.

>BAD STORYTELLING
Again, the DM's fault.

>PEOPLE SHOUDLNT LIKE WHAT I DONT LIKE

>>50331409
>You described exacly what every game with my group of rl friends was like. And yes, I did have fun playing that lone monk among spell spellcasters, because the DM wasnt shit and didnt design every challenge so that wizards could easily solve everything with a single spell.

Describe an encounter then. Tell us how you played a Monk and wasn't just a burden.

>>50331409
How the fuck did it work, then? And I swear to god, if you describe some stupid bullshit where you all just played like retards, I will laugh at you.

So tell us, fucker. What's the magic balance?

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>>50331373

>its about the same

No it isn't.

> its a better fleshed out 3.5

A shined up turd is still a turd.

>>50331346
The point where he used none of the magical means of the time relative to the mythos of the people who wrote the story (contrast that to say, Son Goku who EXPRESSLY used magic, alongside his immense physical strength) nor had divine/supernatural parentage.
Taken on face, Beowulf was a human being who was capable of extraordinary feats of strength and skill on his merit alone. Unless you have access to say parts of the lay no one else has, you are talking out of your ass outright.

4th edition fixed this problem, while introducing the problem of the combat taking too long. Now the question to me is this: How do you get the good of 4e(class balance) without the bad(longer and ultimately boring fights)?

>>50331383
>>no matter how many Archtypes they shit out won't fix it.
>>theres no viable fighter-type for pf.
>myrmidon, stalker, warder, warlord, zealot, maybe slayer or alchemist, depending how you build it.

>>50331437
drastically reduce 4e enemy hp. up their damage a bit. do math to get the right damage % ratios youre looking for.

>>50331414
>magic immune monsters doesn't exist
>traps doesnt exist
>its impossible to design a challenge that can't be solved by spells
Have you actually never played anything or always played with complete shit DMs?

>>50331434
Oh look, you did exactly that. You thought Supernatural means magic

Tell me, have you actually read Beowulf? No other Warrior in Hrothgar's kingdom could even stand to Grendel. Beowulf kills him bare handed.

Beowulf was Supernaturally strong, but not Magical.

>>50331439
I notice how none of those are the fighter class, Are you saying in order to have a usable fighter I need to play a fucking Alchemist?

>>50331434
so, youre saying beowulfs capabilities are within the capabilities of a regular live human being? because otherwise that would be the supernatural being referred to. being capable of more than real people.

>>50331437
They did fix it, as far as the mechanics went.
The real issue with fights taking too long was almost always on the players for not knowing what to do; people would see they had options and actual choices with consequences, proceed to freeze up, ask for advice, etc.
The monster hp was too high, and damage too low. They changed that. Hell, I make 70% of all creatures on the field minions outright.
The players are the actual problem, and that requires a ruthless DM to force the issue.
Most GMs are pussies, ergo the problem.
>>50331450
Check the math from MM1 to MV. Most monsters had their HP cut 25-50%.

>>50331450
>Summons
>There's spells for that
Yeah, so far it does seem to be impossible, because YOU CAN'T FUCKING GIVE ONE.

Come on, fuckface. Lets see one of these magical encounters that makes a Monk worth a shit in a party of Tier 1's.

>>50331450
>magic immune monsters doesn't exist
Correct, magic immunity is modeled by infinite Spell Resistance.

There are spells that ignore spell resistance and they tend to be extremely powerful.

>>50331430
its the best high magic tactical rpg in existence. ive tried alternatives, and its easier to houserule pathfinder via a blacklist than it is to try to make any other game fill this niche .

>>50331450
>Magic immune monsters

Many spells can get around that

>Traps don't exist

Are you saying Wizards can't detect and disarm traps?

>its impossible to design a challenge that can't be solved by spells

That is entirely correct.

Name me a Single encounter you face that couldn't be solved by

>Wizard casting save or die
>Wizard summoning a monster
>Wizard using Divination or whatever to find everything needed.

>>50331467
ntgb there is *one* for sure
>break out of a prison in a null-magic zone.

>>50331451
>so, youre saying beowulfs capabilities are within the capabilities of a regular live human being
Clearly they are, because in the story, a regular human being did so.
>>50331456
>You thought Supernatural means magic
We are talking about D&D, anon, not real life.
Stop moving goalposts, because in D&D, supernatural is magical, extraordinary is nonmagical but still beyond the norm of regular humans.
>Are you saying in order to have a usable fighter I need to play a fucking Alchemist?
In 3.pf? Yes, unless you want to be incompetent at anything other than combat, and sometimes not even that.
>>50331450
>magic immune monsters doesn't exist
>the best way to challenge someone is to make their ENTIRE POINT null and void
Terrible GM flag.

>>50331461
And they can be cast all day, instantly and at no cost, right?

>>50331480
Is it modeled the same way as AMFs are?

>>50331451
myrmidon is a fighter archetype. several of the others fill the extraordinary but not magic fighting man role.

>>50331485
They can certainly keep it up longer than martials can keep on martialing once you're past like level 4. HP is a resource too.

>>50331488
uh, dead magic zone. not antimagic field. i think antimagic field has quirks you can work with (but i cant remember what) dead magic zone lacks those.

>>50331483
>Clearly they are, because in the story, a regular human being did so.

But they didn't, Only Beowulf did, and Only Beowulf ever did so ever more. That's the point of Beowulf's Poem.

He is a Mythical figure.

>>50331489
And What makes Myrmidon so good then?

>>50331485
No, But unless you're throwing a Dungeon ENTIRELY of Magic Immune monsters, That won't be a problem.

>>50331485
Not actually an argument, because martial characters have defined limits as well.

>>50331501
>what makes myrmidon viable
initiating stances and maneuvers.

ie: special combat training and techniques that expand their versatility without crippling their damage output.

>>50331498
Somehow I don't think "well casters can't do anything if they can't cast GOD WINS" is a good argument.

Dead magic zones are also a total fucking nightmare for everyone, not just casters.

>>50331501
>He is a Mythical figure.
So your argument is that any mythological figure that exceeded regular human limits was magical as defined by D&D, despite within their own stories, nothing magical is implied at all?
You are working in your own bubble, anon, kindly come out and join the rest of the thread who is talking about D&D.

>>50331514
>nothing magical is implied at all AND D&D has always had allotments for expressly nonmagical superhuman feats?
Forgot that part.

>>50331485
All you need to do when you run out is cast Rope Trick, climb up, and pull up the rope behind you. By the time time stop ends, you're in an extradimensional space that lasts over eight hours. Then you can just chill, rest, regain your spells, and jump back down. And that's only using a 2nd level spell with a caster-level of 8.

>>50331480
I hate Null Magic Zones. But that's because of the whole idea where you're saying 'oh, X and X characters are commoners now. Have fun'.

>>50331514
>>50331521

>So your argument is that any mythological figure that exceeded regular human limits was magical

No, you fucking autist. I am saying that Mythological figures that exceed regular human limits are Supernatural. And that Supernatural is not by definition, Magical.

You even said it yourself in your fucking post

>Superhuman

To be Superhuman, is to be supernatural.

>>50331514
Mythical figures are supernatural, yes, asshole.

I'm sorry you are this fucking stupid.

Again, because it needs to be repeated for you:

MAGIC =/= SUPERFUCKINGNATURAL.

>>50331532
evidently he cant understand the difference between a word used in its normal use vs a mechanical keyword in a game that none of us have been using.

supernatural, not Su:

>>50331529
Anon, you need to reread my post then, because you have taken the wrong thing from it and are trying to base your argument on it.
>>50331532
I'm gonna copypaste a few things for the both of you.
OP:
>muggles in D&D
D20 srd
>Supernatural Abilities (Su)
>Supernatural abilities are magical
We are talking ABOUT D&D, not real life.
I said that supernatural things should NOT be considered magic in the game in all respects, because then you have the issue that OP is talking about.
Somehow, you monstrous idiots can't infer when someone is talking about the subject at hand, compared to the derail you both have jumped into.
Oops, add >>50331550 to the moron list.

>>50331566
And that part in D&D should be drug out back, and shot alongside you. How many fucking times do we need to repeat that? THE SYSTEM DOES IT BAD, AND IT SHOULD CHANGE. You didn't say anything of the fucking sort.

Is that clear enough for you yet? Neck yourself, you sad sack of shit.

>>50331566
Don't say phrases like

>So your argument is that any mythological figure that exceeded regular human limits was magical as defined by D&D, despite within their own stories, nothing magical is implied at all?

Then cry when people call you a moron.

You're the one not following the train of thought and confined entirely on your Autistic D&D terms.

Fuck your Manuals.

If a Peasant saw a Fighter Slam dunking an Ogre into a firepit from 50 yards in the sky, he'd think that was supernatural.

Because Normal common people in D&D can't survive terminal velocity.

>>50331582
>THE SYSTEM DOES IT BAD, AND IT SHOULD CHANGE. You didn't say anything of the fucking sort.
see
>>50331307
>This is why I hate the generation that grew up on 3.pf, because they are the principal pushers of the mentality that anything beyond basic realism must be supernatural.
Now kill yourself.
Further, you have said nothing about the game, only screaming SUPERNATURAL != MAGIC HURR.
>>50331592
I don't need to follow a thread derail, anon, I have been making on topic statements, and you and a handful of others are harping about real life definitions, then complaining that I'm not ignoring the point of the thread along with you.
You may as well post smuganimegirl maymays as well, for all you are bringing to the thread.

>>50331692
Yes, I said that. Because shit isn't mundane, you smug little cunt. And I counter with >>50331332

What is it about mundane that you need to get your itty bitty cock hard, retard? Its fucking supernatural. The D&D system and names are just as retarded as you. The legends are supernatural, and supernatural =/= magic.

So, yes. Neck. Yourself. You fucking retard.

>>50331692
>>50331725
It should obviously be (EX).

Like an extraordinary ability to, say, move instantly a certain amount of feet despite barriers or walls. Might look like a teleport to people, but since it's a mundane warrior/monk doing it, he's actually just moving that quickly.

>>50331743
>Inb4 NO IT HAS TO BE MUNDANE WHAAAAAH

>>50331147
Not in 2nd Edition D&D, if you fought a Psionic you are fucked if you aren't one.

>>50331485
Jesus this is stupid. You realise martials are resource limited too, right? If you run out of HP you're dead, and in any given situation a martial will run out of HP long before the spellcaster runs out of spells.

>>50332148
Preferring non-magical classes to remain non-magical is one thing, wanting them to stay relevant in high level adventures is other. The first is reasonable the second is silly and not supported by the game mechanics.

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>>50332148
(had to fix a pretty substantial typo)

>>50329132 (OP)
> He still plays [not 5th] edition
Get with the times.
> Every class is good at what it's supposed to be good at vanilla
> -but also have archetypes for specialized or hybrid builds built-in
> Skills are practical for to every class, and scale equally
> Feats are package-deals with everything you need; no more waiting to get what you need
Is it perfect? No, no system is, but most of the class balancing that needs to go down is in the hair-splitting of archetype features.

Also,
> it's retarded and hypocritical to claim a fighter is realistic and therefore should have no supernatural abilities
> hypocritical
> to claim you prefer non-magical classes to remain non-magical
The ridiculous nature of D&D's HP and damage mechanics is a whole separate topic from character builds and balancing. It's a relatively consistent constant across all characters, thus relevant when discussing the viability of character concepts.

>>50332180
see
>>50332168

>>50332180
>> it's retarded and hypocritical to claim a fighter is realistic and therefore should have no supernatural abilities
>> hypocritical
>> to claim you prefer non-magical classes to remain non-magical
Hey, you dense motherfucker, guess what?

READ

THE

GODDAMN

FUCKING

THREAD

Supernatural doesn't HAVE TO MEAN fucking magical. That's some dogshit unique to D&D.

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>>50332168
I know, but here's the thing:
Trying to weasel a mundane/fight-man archetypes into a system that has other archetypes which out-pace them a third of the way up the power level scale is not an issue with the fighter, but in the design of the over all game. It signifies a lack of oversight or forethought when planning how the characters would develop. In a game like that it would be better to take the fight-men out entirely. Leave them as hirelings and henchmen, or do what D&D used to do and have high-level fighters be relevant because they begin amassing a small army. While I strongly prefer low-magic/"Sword n' Sorcery," type fantasy, I don't actually take issue with high fantasy.
Which, to answer your question, no, mundane characters being equal to magic-users in systems/settings where magic effectively turns you into demi-gods and nearly every class has access to it in one way or another does not make any sense. However, the balancing here has less to do with the individual character archetypes, and more understanding what sort of games you want a system to be used for. You could write a class that was the best possible fighter ever, and one teleport other type spell undoes the whole thing. It's just the nature of the archetypes. It's not an issue of balance, but understanding the types of stories and characters you're trying to facilitate, and; as with all things, trying to please everybody ultimately ends up satisfying nobody.
Back to 5e: it (mostly) reoriented it's self. Non-magical PCs are now more useful not because they've become more powerful, but because they've become more relevant. The world around them has been brought down a few pegs, and they've been given tools for stepping outside of the 'Hit it with sword," box that don't entail planning out a dozen feats, two dozen levels in advance.

D&D has other issues in it's mechanics; both balance and logic-wise, but that's a whole separate topic, as they apply equally to any sort of PC.

>>50332324
Supernatural and magical are principally synonymous; until you start defining what does and does not qualify as "magic" in particular circumstances.
My point stands regardless.

>>50329595
He cuts her in half using the sword of a Giant since the sword of a man cannot kill her.
Bearing in mind she's some kind of demon/water demon herself.

>>50331466

>its the best high magic tactical rpg in existence

God lord how hard did that horse kick you in the head?

>>50329203
ToB and PoW are options, but aren't default options, that's the main problem, you have to play mother may I with them because they're 3pp. Balance should be something that exists since the first book.

Also, not every GM allows splats.

>>50329203
>"I want to play a strong independent warrior who needs no magic"
>Suggest Gish class
Sending you a big fuck you in your direction

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>Tfw I play Anima

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>tfw I play 4e
>tfw one of the best tank/defender classes is a mundane guy with a polearm
>tfw a forester with two swords can pull up single-target damage better than almost anyone else

>>50331391
Top kek.

>>50331391
Is there a collection of "shit the Pathfinder devs have said" somewhere?

About the only good thing I've ever seen them say is when they defended the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity being a cursed item, on the grounds that, even if it would be beneficial to a small subset of people or under the right circumstances, the item still a) tries to trick you into thinking it's a different belt, and b) the change is involuntary once you put it on, meaning the vast majority of people don't want it to happen. So it's still a cursed item in Pathfinder even with how LBGTQ friendly the game is.

>>50333298
Some anon on /pfg/ dumped screencaps of shit at least one of them said across a thread and a half just yesterday. Just go bavk through and fuel the rage with their idiocy.

>>50329132
Because I like playing stealth type characters that can leap attack with a great sword on unsespecting baddies or rain down dragon fire bolts with a heavy repeating crossbow while in concealment.

>>50333453
...and you're going to need magic to be able to keep doing that successfully at the high levels, and not accepting that is silly. Which is the thread's entire point.

>>50333298
Don't do that to yourself anon, I read some screencaps and it really hurts my soul seing people like that getting recognizement in the hobby

>>50331391
>le martials are to clean up minions and noname mooks and nothing else
I hate SKR so much

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>>50333298
I have a few others saved. Here.

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>>50333661
And they can't even do the mook shit well!

>>50332549
Fair enough. Haven't read Beowulf myself since high school, so was just going off memory there.

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>>50333810
And last one I got.

>>50329132
The D&D balance is dependent on a few things that almost everyone ignores. Casters are way more complicated. Spells can require hand motions, words, or materials. If a caster is next to an enemy they might not be able to cast. If a caster is having a hard time breathing they might not be able to cast. If a caster can't concentrate they might not be able to cast. If the caster is casting but his concentration breaks, he can't cast. If the caster hasn't stocked up on materials they might not be able to cast.

Arcane casters also need to learn spells. The rules say that just because you level up doesn't give you any spells. A wizard has to find another wizard to teach him the new spells.

Then there's gear. High-level D&D requires characters to start with a lot of gear to compete with the monsters. The wizard should have been spending some of it on materials while the fighter should have some really good stuff. When up against a creature that has spell resistance and good saves an enhanced sword swung by a big dude is viable. Sure it's only chipping away at the creature's HP, but it is doing damage.

Does the fighter have hitpoints? Is he not paralyzed? Good, he can swing a sword.

>>50329149
they exist but getting my group to accept them is a sisyphean task.

>>50331480
>ntgb
are you having a stroke?

>>50333530
Magical weapons and armor sure but past that I don't like to use casters. I've played two 1-20 characters, neither used magic past cantrips and the dudes were still pulling their own weight.

>>50334341
Everything you just said doesn't really apply to 3.5 in any meanginful way, outside of house rules.

It is more applicable to AD&D though, which is probably a better option than 3.5 anyway for that reason.

>>50334341
>The rules say that just because you level up doesn't give you any spells.
They do, senpai.

>The wizard should have been spending some of it on materials while the fighter should have some really good stuff.
The materials for most spells are worth just a few coppers.

>>50334341
>Arcane casters also need to learn spells. The rules say that just because you level up doesn't give you any spells
Oh, wait, what's this?

Spellbooks

A wizard must study her spellbook each day to prepare her spells. She cannot prepare any spell not recorded in her spellbook, except for read magic, which all wizards can prepare from memory.

A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice. At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own.

And wait, what's that? A wizard can make his own gear cheaper then a fighter can buy it? Also that a wizard is far less gear dependent anyway? Oh my!

>>50333891
LAst I hard SKR quit pathfinder and tried to kickstart a fantasy heartbreaker. What happened to his sorry ass after that?

>>50334341
>Spells can require hand motions, words, or materials
Irrelevant, component pouches make this a non issue 99% of the time
>If a caster is next to an enemy they might not be able to cast
Irrelevant, spend on concentration (in 3.5) and sometimes you don't even need to spend a single resource (PF), passing the DC is piss easy once you're above 3rd level. Even if you're worried about it, pick combat casting (+4 to the roll) and this will make the Concentration rolls literally always a success.
>The rules say that just because you level up doesn't give you any spells
False in every arcane class ever, read the class, on case of wizard you get 2 spells per level ON TOP of those you find and learn from other sources, but at least TWO are given every time you level, of any level you know.

>The wizard should have been spending some of it on materials while the fighter should have some really good stuff.
I played high l evel (8+) games a lot, every spell ever I need was bought with 20% of my wealth per level easily in scrolls and similar stuff, sometimes even less, the rest went into useful magic items like rods, capes, wands and headbands, casters more often than martials end saving a lot of money.

>>50334341
>Talks about people ignoring stuff
>He doesn't know the rules, classes, skills, etc
The irony is strong in this one

>>50334499
Bullshit, either your group sucks or you're just jerking yourself off. More than likely the enemies were restricted by battlefield control, rebuffed, or you were buffed to hell and back.

>>50334985
Working at WotC as a contract manager, according to Wikipedia.

>>50329387
I've seen exactly one work of fiction where wizards do that, and it was Dying Earth.

>>50335272
Content, I heard. He keeps the FR fluff in order, and is kept well away from the crunch.

I'm a fighter class with a large pool of health and low int
I need something to kill magic things what can I do? I got shit on by a being laced with curses

>>50329320
>Beyond 5-6 you should be going full wuxia, jumping 35 feet, running on water, balancing on twig-thin branches, and wall running, prince-of-persia style, at the very least, and as the levels climb up past 10, you'll need more than that.
It's funny because this shit still would do very little to put you on the same level as archdemons or make you better at out of combat stuff, yet at the same time it would clash in the most awful way with your classical western fantasy setting.
The problem is just that you people are trying to force balance in settings where balance can't logically exist. Mind you, it's bad game design to have such an inbalance between classes, but the root of the problem is planted so deep within the system that it would be easier to just make a another system rather than address the issue.
I hate to be that guy, but seriously just go play something else.

>>50332628
what other game offers gameplay even comparable to 12th-20th level 3.x full caster characters, then?

not 4e/5e, they doesn't reach that power level.
ww mage 1/2 lack the tactics.

only other example i can think of that does it half-decently is 3.5/3.0.

name some alternatives, if you have them, ill check them out.

>>50332750
>thread complaining about the players who won't take those options after being offered them and warned of fighters shortcomings and poor design, who then whine about fighters poor design.
>gm might not allow it
that is very much not the topic at hand. gm is allowing it. gm has even tried banning fighter and replacing it with those.

>>50331011
> the overpowered spells in 3.5 are area spells

Except for grease and glitterdust and web you are objectively wrong.

>>50332768
>"i want to play a strong independent warrior who needs no magic"
pow. fighter doesnt do what youre asking for very well. it rwlies on everyone else to handle all situations but murder.
if you then continue to select fighter, you brought this on yourself, and made your bed, and have to lie in it.

>>50333796
well is that ever relevant to the topic at hand.

that line where everyone should now be superhuman is between levels 4 and 6.

>>50329132
>and the most important rule: have fun!

>>50334495
>ntgb
not that guy, but:

>>50335457
good for wotc. smart call.

>>50335593
>go play something else
something else typically doesnt support my high level mage gameplay and thats what 3.x has going for it.

if i wanted a d20 low magic game of fighting men id play fantasy craft or conan.

>classical western fantasy
>eberron, faerun, planescape, spelljammer, golarion
>classical western fantasy
what?

>>50336842
Dark tower

>>50336783
Yeah. Put his autsim to a use that can't really hurt anything.

>>50337097
what, like stephen king? what about it? its not even a d&d setting.

>>50337099
having an autist handle setting consistency is a good idea.

having an autist (poorly) impose real world limits on superhuman characters because "muh realism" is a terrible idea.

i like pathfinder, because i like the gameplay it offers for mages, which is hard to match in other games.

for martials? gish classes like magus and paladin, synthesist, and the dsp martials.

if i want low magic, i have other games that do that better already.

>>50329132
Fighters cease to be mundane after the first few levels. Once they gain power and accrue magic items, their powers grow further.
Even just basic resilience to damage is a power. Once a high enough level, you can step off a wizard's tower and fall an arbitrary amount without crippling damage, just because you can't be bothered to take the stairs. Nothing a potion or healing spell can't fix. Or even a good night's sleep.

>>50329149
Tome of Battle essentially killed off my attempts to fix the Fighter class. I read through it, tried a couple of builds, and decided the best fix was to ban Fighter and tell people to take Tome of Battle classes instead.

>>50329132

I think the problem basically stems from how much D&D has gotten out of touch with mainstream fantasy.

The fact that it's the biggest rpg guarantees that a lot of people who really should be playing other rpgs end up playing it by default, and feel disappointed when everything feels so high powered and far out.

The modern fantasy novel protagonist is not a super saiyan.

I completely agree that it's retarded to play non-magical classes in D&D which is a game that people approach basically like they approach playing Dota, engaging in endless build discussions and having discussions about party balance and stuff, but have some sympathy for people who'd rather play a game where someone like Boromir would fit, rather than your choices being the lineup from Diablo 3.

>>50337792
>diablo 3.
much lower powered than 5e, but significantly closer in power and tone than boromir is. skyrim's dragonborn is probably like, level 12 equivalent.

if you are looking to play as boromir or the like, you've chosen the wrong game.

you're probably looking for HARP, Conan, Unisystem, Cinematic Unisystem, MERP, or Pendragon.

if youre gonna try to do that in Pathfinder? thats when you want an e4, e6 or e8 campaign. don't be surprised when you either no longer look like boromir, or boromir can no longer keep up with the x men, and then the avengers, and then the green lantern corps.

>>50337540
>tob/pow.
yep

>>50338506
maybe dragonborn is closer to 8-10, actually.

>>50338506
>Diablo 3 much lower powered than 5e
I played a high level 5e game, it's nothing like Diablo3 in where you're defeating infinite hordes of high level demons like nothing.

>>50338566
>5e
>comparable to 3.x high power levels.

i dont see people creating demiplanes, forging powerful artifacts, or having dozens of powerful hanging contingent spells in 5e, let alone setting up self-resetting spell-traps (which can be put on carryable objects) which may be harmful or helpful, and using them regularly.

5e high power is like 3e mid power.

>>50338566
3e high oower is truly gonzo power levels.

boromir doesn't fit in well in a high level 5e party, yes, but he fits even worse in a 3.x party.

>>50336349
Well, freeform might compare to the process of checking off boxes and telling the DM what happens in the world as a result.

If you want to play gods, there's also stuff like Dawn of Worlds where you have limitless magic to sculpt a utopia.

>>50338619
>>50338686
Ok, it must be late because it seems like lost something in translation, I read diablo 3 as the videogame diablo 3 which is bullshit high powered compared to 5e so this:
>>50338506
>>diablo 3.
>much lower powered than 5e, but significantly closer in power and tone than boromir is
Struck me as odd

>>50338727
diablo 3 has "higher powered numbers" or rather, hordes of much weaker enemies.
>5e has more high power effects.
>3.x has more significantly more high powered effects

>>50338727
youre describing hp and damage

>>50338778
is describing the scope of world altering abilities.

>>50338716
>freeform
now we have roleplaying without the game. no thanks, pass.
>dawn of worlds
good for coop worldbuilding, not so good for "tactical high magic campaign".

the only things that come close are like , HERO and 1000pt GURPS characters and PL 14 M&M

>>50338842
Anima?

>>50338842
>now we have roleplaying without the game. no thanks, pass.

When you can make a demiplane with infinite traps to create food and water or healing, teleport thousands of miles or between planes in an instant, summon a horde of angels, and vanquish any enemy in 20 different ways with a snap of your fingers, the game is already over.

>>50338842
>>50338778
In D3 you break heavy iron doors, 3 diameter thick pillars, etc with ONE punch, you can't even imagine to do that in 5e.
In D3 you can obliterate an entire room full of whatever while destroying all the enviroment in one hit. This is far from what you can do in 5e.

Also is a continual combat against infinite hordes of monsters without any rest, in 5e this is night impossible.

No, D3 is way higher level than 5e and not the other way around.

>>50338913
not if the enemy is at the same power levels, no, but that is at the very top end of the game.

>>50338934
hmm. some compelling arguments. little in the way of world changing powers though, which is why people call 3e so high powered.

>>50338909
i actually havent tried that one yet. its on my rpg wishlist though. same with ars magica

>>50338960
If the enemy is at the same power level, then it's trivial due to the numbers advantage. If it's a single more powerful entity, then you die at level 1 from the army of minions he conjured to kill any spellcasters who might grow to threaten his power.

Boy this is a fun 'game'

>>50338506
Did you even read my post, I'm agreeing with you, you're not clarifying anything or pointing out anything I don't already understand. I agree that those games are totally more appropriate for a Boromir character, that was my point.

D&D is the top dog, but D&D looks nothing like people arriving at pen and paper rpgs by way of fantasy novels might expect. This leads to some clashes about what people want to play vs what a D&D character is like.

For D&D veteran, D&D makes sense and they know what to expect.

To an outsider that's balls deep in fantasy but hasn't tried role-playing games yet, D&D looks like a super hero game. If you list the 10 most popular pieces of fantasy fiction today that are not a videogame, D&D is not really a good fit for playing any of them.

So again. I understand that playing a completely mundane, down to earth character in D&D is really retarded, but I understand people who want to play characters that aren't so over the top. They should play other games, but many end up playing D&D simply for lack of choice.

>>50339016
agreed on all accounts

>d&d looks like a super hero game.
thats because it is...

Low level Wizards should be more of alchemists than spellcasters and Sorcerers should be able to do minor tricks at first level to flesh out their affinity with magic.

In other way (assuming DnD) - Fighters should get supernatural abilities due to their bodies being able to absorb more mana from enviroment.

Either make spellcaster weaker or make fighters magical.

>>50339016
>If you list the 10 most popular pieces of fantasy fiction today that are not a videogame, D&D is not really a good fit for playing any of them.
definitely not. like, i wouldnt try to use d&d for a game of thrones campaign if i was drunk.

> They should play other games, but many end up playing D&D simply for lack of choice.
that sucks for them, but doesnt mean d&d is not a superhero game. the problem is indeed that they are looking for a different rpg. if someone told me they liked game of thrones and were wanting to play a fantasy rpg, like d&d, i would tell them there and then that d&d is much more avengers than game of thrones.

>>50339076
indeed

>>50339223
>the problem is indeed that they are looking for a different rpg
The books do not give that impression, and Gods help you if this is your first RPG too.

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>>50329203
I thought the point was to load the bastard down with the full vault of magic powered shit to keep them competing.

Yea he's a low class muggle that's only good for whacking things with a moderately pointy piece of plain metal. But then the party wizard gives him

>Sword of holy light that oozes holy flame at all times and cleaves evil things just by being within 10 feet of them
>Helmet of diamond hard skin for anyone who wears it
>Breastplate of enchanted dragon scales that gives total immunity to all fire, heat. lava, and anything remotely hot while also being sturdier than the damned diamond skin inducing helmet
>Shield of reflect all magic back at the castor no matter how bullshit
>Boots of running at Sonic the Hedgehog speed, also run on water and walls
>Gloves of increase strength to that of a titan
>Belt of increase strength of 18 more titans on top of what the gloves do
>Ring of summon dead heroes as pets to fight along side you anytime you want, up to 6 dead fighting pals at a time
>Pants of horse summoning

But yea he's a non magic casting mook, who can now pick up mountains and casually toss them at gods because he is best buds with the high level mage of the party.