Things that PC and console RPGs took too far. I'll start.

>>50264447
Class-based character progression.

>>50264447
Care to elaborate?

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Randomness

>Random encounters
>Random drops
>Random status effects
>Random skill learning
>Random treasure chests

>>50264447
>PC and console RPGs

I think you got the wrong forum. This is /tg/.

Inserting RPG elements in every other game type.
Do I really want my veteran gunner to physically change the heating rate and fire rate of the barrel?
Does that same machine gunner really need to have a once per encounter spell like ability?
Do I really need a bishop to become a bishop+ that is protected from queens after I've played 100 games?

>>50264750
What is early D&D?

>>50264848
Its okay. Everything that people are complaining about comes straight from D&D

>>50264717

The level descreprency between 1 and 200, or even 1 and 100 is pretty jarring: how am I supposed to believe that some level 11 troll and his level 8 followers are able to seize an island against an entire tribe containing hundreds of warriors who should be capable of singlehandedly wiping them out, or a bunch of level 14? centaurs are capable of even taking out the level 70 guards of the front gate of the city they're allegedly attempting to assault?

>>50269950
What the fucksticks are you talking about you retard

>>50270279
world of warcraft

I hate collecting and training monsters, Dragonquests are ruined by training monsters

>>50269950
>he can't deal with leveling from 1 to 9999
>thirty times

>>50264851
At least in MP focused games the RPG elements tend to be part of the Pavlonian conditioning aimed on increasing the chances that the player will continue playing the game.

>>50264447
Experience and levels are comfy.

>>50270279
What the fucksticks are you talking about? I'd say he was pretty clear there

>>50273576
I fucking HATE MP. It's one of the worst systems imo.
Gives absolutely no reason to ever use lower level spells. Spell slots, don't make any sense, but at least they have the advantage of giving you a reason to use your low level spells. With an MP bar the player just spams whatever they're highest damage spell is.

>>50264851
>Does that same machine gunner really need to have a once per encounter spell like ability?
But anon, if martials and casters can't do exactly the same things exactly as well, then everything's unbalanced!
>Do I really need a bishop to become a bishop+ that is protected from queens after I've played 100 games?
Fucking kek

>>50273697
He's talking about multiplayer not mana points, but to address that point a good system will give you other reasons to use lower level spells.

>>50273725

I feel the failing is the fact that the spell itself is a one trick pony say being a versitle tool that can also be used for combat purposes.

I mean, I just have fireball. All it does is shoot a ball of fire and then that's it. I can't precision aim it to set the camp fire alight or hold it to melt ice or use it as a light source as I would need very specific spells to do those things unless I had a blanket magic skill involving fire.

>>50273697
>Gives absolutely no reason to ever use lower level spells.
This is only true if MP management isn't a major concern. 3.5's Psionics system is a pretty big counterpoint to that, and so are the spell systems from the later Wizardry games, because you absolutely cannot spam at max power all day. Shit, even some of the Final Fantasy games need you to not go full retard with MP.

>>50264447
Tabletop games took them too far too.

>>50264848
They're relevant in this context since we're talking about them as a reflection of (traditional) game design.

>>50264750
You think that's something, you should see MaidRPG.

>>50273697
The problem isn't mana, it's number of spells. You really only need one damage spell, if all we're talking about is direct damage. AoO and damage over time can be different, but if damage needs to increase because that's how the game works, then that should be because that spell gets stronger, not because you replace it. The real use of magic is utility, so mages don't need to be getting in on the fighter's territory by doing lots of damage anyway.

>>50273776
Yeah, but if you get too flexible, magic becomes even more OP than in traditional systems.

Perhaps the best way is what Mage tries to do (though it has other problems) where you have flexible magic with significant drawbacks, and then you can create specific spells within that paradigm which are cheaper and faster, for magical tasks (such as doing damage) that you engage in frequently.

>>50273984

In that case, having a tool that can be used to fight should be harder to use in such a way I think. When I imagine it in a sense the mage shouldn't be able to rely solely on their magic to carry them through.

The fighter throws a flask of oil and then the mage sets it alight to bottleneck enemies and then has to draw a sword or gun to take them down along with everyone else.

>>50274019
Magic just needs to support rather than supplant, it's fine to have the mage rely solely on magic he just needs not to step on toes while doing it.

>>50274019
>should be harder to use in such a way
I don't understand this bit. What is such a way?

>>50274107

You're not going to be killing hordes with a multi-tool by itself.

>>50264447
Combat

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>>50272810
>He only overleveled one character.

>>50276228
>digaea
>humans are so powerful a single squad with guns and axes could take down armies of common demons.

>>50264447
vidya != tabletop

>>50273725
>>50273776
>>50273829
>>50273697
In one of the Final Fantasy Tactics games, they explain that the reason characters only start battles with 10% of their MP is that MP is in the form of a mist, and trying to hold it in your body is like holding your breath, you just can't do it for long. (You also built up MP at a rate of 10% per turn)

>>50264447
>>50264702
Hah, these two are some of the biggest pet peeves of mine.

I'd add horible equipment scaling. Similar kind of problem as in case of levels and classes where some equipment cannot be even touched by unfitting class no matter the situation, and there's shitload of it in most games - decent regular sword is basically a newbie tool since very soon there are glowing swords on fire, for everyone - but in most settings even they aren't much special because then there are legendary glowing swords on fire with enchantment and right after them legendary glowings swords on fire with enchantment +1. I blame first cRPGs being heavily inspired by D&D and then not many people having guts to deviate from succesful model, especially when the grind brings them extra cash in MMOs.

>>50264851
Some genres mix well, a lot of it depends on application and design. For example, I liked first Deus Ex, where skills had meaning but aside from lock-picking and hacking, were usable even at basic level in any situation - you'd just have harder time hitting stuff and will ahve to aim more carefully if you were a crappy rifleman, for example.

STALKER series also most often decently mixed progression of character with equipment while keeping things believable.

But yeah, someone's guns shooting faster or every bullet hitting the usual places on enemy body penetrating deeper because "they're that good" was annoying.

>>50264447
Crafting

>>50264447
dialog- get rid of all of it.

the concept of a BBEG at all.

>>50264447
Bosses.

>>50277457
oh my fucking god yes. this obsession with crafting needs to die in a fire. fuck the millenials, fuck the brats, fuck it all. goddamned instant gratification shits think a rat flail is some lolepic expression of self when they just dont understand how pathetic they are

>>50277457
I always thought TES handled Alchemy fairly well

>>50280279
>rat flail
is this a meme i missed?

>>50276950
>dungeons and dragons
>humans are so powerful a single squad with guns and axes could take down armies of common demons.

>>50280279
Holy shit, calm down.

>>50280279
The fuck is your issue with crafting and your own generation?

>>50280519
How can you enjoy that? It's just throwing in random ingredients till something works.

Sure, you can guess Deathbell has poisonous effects and Frost Salts have some sort of frost related effects but the majority of effects are seemingly random. That's annoying.

>>50264447
>>50264851
>Experience and levels
>Inserting RPG elements in every other game type.

Fucking this. I love me a good RPG, but the mechanics are there for a reason, and they have absolutely no place in, say, a fighting game that's supposed to be about practicing and getting used to a character in order to improve. Using levels and stats that improve with level in a games like that only creates a cutoff point where no matter how well you play, it's simply impossible to beat an opponent past that threshold.

The way that games like Deus Ex and Mass Effect handle levels is fine. Let players learn a variety of new abilities as they advance, that don't necessarily make them *better* but just give them more options. That makes advancement meaningful without creating an insurmountable cutoff point.

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>>50277173
Mechanically that sounds like Tactics A2, but I don't remember that actually being explained ingame.
I like that explanation though, and it certainly did a lot to fix the Doublecast Summoner problem.

>>50264750
This, nips especially love to shove rng into places where it doesn't add anything.

>>50286897
Can't you get an ability that lets you substitute MP for twice the amount of HP, letting you doublecast summons anyway?

>>50288057
Yes.

>>50286845
>I love me a good RPG, but the mechanics are there for a reason, and they have absolutely no place in, say, a fighting game that's supposed to be about practicing and getting used to a character in order to improve. Using levels and stats that improve with level in a games like that only creates a cutoff point where no matter how well you play, it's simply impossible to beat an opponent past that threshold.

Yeah the skinner box abuse of levels in a lot of modern games really drives me nuts.

I find that a majority of "modern" RPGs are other genres (typically Adventure games or open world FPSs/TPSs) with level progression systems and XP rewards added to make them more addicting.

>>50264447
Thinking that RPG means levels and experience.

>>50286845
What fighting game has rpg elements in it?

>>50289583
The most mainstream example would have to be SFxT and the gems.

>>50289599
Shit, I filtered out that kusoge from my mind..

>>50286845
I'm with you. I've really grown to dislike getting better stats as a game goes on. I hate that there are fights you basically can't win because you haven't grinded enough, and conversely I hate missing out on challenging fights because I explored too much or did things out-of-order.

Levels are essentially a gimped choose-your-own difficulty mechanic, so why not just let the played choose the difficulty directly instead?

>>50280712
>>50280279
>rat flail
What is this old ass joke from a webcomic doing?