/CofD/ &/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

So I hope that OPP will only be slow instead of unbearably slow with a new operations director.

>>50253661
>get money and get to die

win/win

>>50253676

According to the comments in the MMN, they're working on training and bringing on some new layout/design folks, which is where most releases seem to stall in the pipeline. That's some good news, and hopefully it'll get us all new books soon!

>>50253370 #
Brave New World was written by a fucking reactionary. You obviously have no bloody idea what you're going on about.
>>50253375 #
> Left is always against freedom
See? Proving my point.
> (2nd and 4th amendment
Epically stupid.
>>50253469 #
You haven't even fucking read the book, have you?
By the way, 1984 is the book that people in Britain lied about having read the most, surpassing the Bible. You aren't impressing me with your claims that are the opposite of what the book says.

For fuck's sake, fucking liberals insisting that 1984 argues in favour of capitalism should all drop dead. None of you have read the book, don't even fucking pretend that you have any idea what you're talking about.

>That player who has cut off at least 5 people's arms with Celerity interruptions
Just kill them! They're gangbangers ffs. You don't get points after the first time.

>>50253730

God i hope so, i was kind of luke warn on requiem with the fucking owls and the not that appealing covenants but it kind of grew on me. Except the LS and the owls. But i like the cool powers and blood magic.

>>50253861
Lol, are you retarded? No one was arguing it's in favour of capitalism, just that it isn't against it (which it truly isn't). If you really read it (which I doubt, considering the nonsense you are spouting), you should read it again and this time use the thing you have between ears.

>>50254034

Requiem is a better game than Masquerade in every single way.

I hope you can warm up on VtR, I genuinely love it and vastly prefer "five covenants in an easy detente" over "two sects that shoot on sight." And the Strix are cool (they reinforce the paranoia and backstabbing of Kindred society!), but completely optional; don't let one antagonist sour you on a game.

>>50254054
Not him, but I still prefer Masquerade personally. Just find it altogether more interesting. Requiem isn't shit, I just don't find it as flavorful.

>>50254039
> it isn't against it
It explicitly is, look up the part in Goldstein's book that mentions the motivation of the Party, keyword is French Revolution.
> If you really read it (which I doubt, considering the nonsense you are spouting)
Wow, this is the first time in this argument I actually feel insulted.

>>50254054

Like i said it grew on me. Though i still like masquerade with its sabbat vs camarilla and clan vs clan.

The covenants some i like some i dont but i never get how they fit in the grand scheme of things and dont just stick to each other (except those that are very political like the invictus and carthians) maybe i should read the "how to make a city" i am sure i saw one for 1st.

That and for a game with tons of offensive powers the game doesnt offer much in the sense of a outlet to the violence you can inflict. I mean masquerade had shovel head/sabbat that youl could always punch but requiem dont seem to have much in the disposable bad guy goon department.

I love blood sorcery though even thought the teban sacrifice is badly explained.

>>50254160

The big thing for me is that you can't have the Sabbat-Camarilla conflict in one coterie, whereas the five Covenants are all free to squabble under a thin veneer of civility so you get more viewpoints and debate in play. Rather than strictly political blocs, the interesting things to note about the Covenants is that all of them represent answers to the question of "I'm a monster, what the fuck do I do now?" - they're big support groups, basically.

And yeah, it's not about going out and punching things, it's about the horror of slowly letting your humanity slip away from you. The cool powers are mostly there for ruining mortals and then feeling bad/awesome about it.

>>50254205
>The big thing for me is that you can't have the Sabbat-Camarilla conflict in one coterie, whereas the five Covenants are all free to squabble under a thin veneer of civility so you get more viewpoints and debate in play. Rather than strictly political blocs, the interesting things to note about the Covenants is that all of them represent answers to the question of "I'm a monster, what the fuck do I do now?" - they're big support groups, basically.

I totally get that, is one of the things that i like most about apocalypse, the viewpoint/phylosophical debate.

Maybe is because i am from south america so catholism is big on paper but people just doesnt give that much of a shit so i cant really see how the LS make sense and blood sorcery fiction make an archbishop seen his goons to get his monthly silver platter money from a vampire wich seemed incredible banal to me.

Maybe their covenant book makes then better?

>>50254205
>And yeah, it's not about going out and punching things, it's about the horror of slowly letting your humanity slip away from you. The cool powers are mostly there for ruining mortals and then feeling bad/awesome about it.

I didnt meant that all the game should be about that but that i miss the option that once in a while the player with celerity and potence could cut loose and punch shovel heads into a fine mist.

>>50254141
>It explicitly is, look up the part in Goldstein's book that mentions the motivation of the Party, keyword is French Revolution.
That's funny interpretation, especially considering the collectivism part. Oh wait, collectivism is capitalism too, right?
>Wow, this is the first time in this argument I actually feel insulted.
Good.

>>50254432
The LS isn't jut Catholic though I wish even the authors would remember that. You can get a holy roller baptist preacher there, and in the middle east they're politically ascendant because they also include vampire Islam.

I'm not sure if that actually answers your question because I'm having a hard time parsing your sentence after 'doesn't give that much of a shit'. It kind of goes off the rails grammatically, or I'm having a stroke or something.

>>50254054
>That spoiler
You are completely incorrect

>>50254432

The Lancea Sanctum is less a monolithic church and more a loose philosophy whose central creed is "we are chosen by God to be monsters that punish the wicked and keep the flock in line."

>>50254557

I'm pretty sure Muslim Kindred are an entirely different group, given that the Sanctified are explicitly drawn from a Roman doctrine based around the events of the crucifixion. The one book that touched on it had a wholly different covenant for them, for one, though it wasn't very good.

>>50254492
> That's funny interpretation, especially considering the collectivism part.
By this point you aren't even pretending at you have any idea what I'm talking about.
At least you do recognise that Orwell was a socialist, right?

>>50254640
I could be wrong, but I could fucking swear I remember seeing it said somewhere that a wing of the Lance included some Islamic vampires. Not all obviously, not like all vampires who actually believe in Christianity go full on in the Lance, but a religious wing of them.

If I remember later I'll page around 2e and various 1e books to see if I just dreamed that up or something.

>>50254640
> the Sanctified are explicitly drawn from a Roman doctrine based around the events of the crucifixion
"Tempters who work one the dark to keep Man on the godly path" thing makes even more sense in Islam, actually, so there's no reason for LS to not be an even bigger thing in the Middle East.

>>50254557

Sorry, i will clarify. What i meant by "doesnt give much of a shit" is that a big chunk of the country answer catholic on census but that because everyone takes the first comunion because you get money and you usually do it as a teenager but most dont practice it afterwards. Church here is pretty chill unless abortion comes up so it normally doesnt affect the day to day and religion is almost invisible. Political parties/figures get whole shrines in houses more than jesus.

I seen more houses with evita pictures that the virgin mary.

So the whole preacher in a tent thing seem alien to me or the fact that they all buy the covenant party line so ferviently. It seem More the US version of what they think catholiscism is than what it actually is.

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> be a Fate/Entropy mage
> be a lucky bastard
> build a reputation around it (at least to the extent that a mage can in the sleeper world)
> educate people around you on the probability theory
> never have your magic be non-coincidental
Life's good.

>>50254758
> that gif
Welp, always forget not to post animated ones from the phone.

>>50254647
>By this point you aren't even pretending at you have any idea what I'm talking about.
If you think I'm wrong in my understanding of what are you talking about, try improving clarity of your statements.
>At least you do recognise that Orwell was a socialist, right?
Sure, I guess. Wikipedia says so, so it must be true :-/
I just read two of his books.

>>50254791
> Wikipedia says so, so it must be true :-/
Wow, you're pathetic.

>>50254714
Plus Islam includes Jesus as a prophet, no reason they'd not be amenable to the idea of Longinus as some kind of vampire prophet from Allah if presented right. It sounds like a pretty reasonable sect of the far reaching covenant to exist.

>>50254808
>Wow, you're pathetic.
Sorry, I forgot for a moment that you are a bit slower. I should have known that the smiley wouldn't be obvious enough for you.

>>50255174
> Islam includes Jesus as a prophet
The second most important, yeah. I just don't know how exactly does the Islamic version of Jesus work, so I avoided mentioning that.
But yeah, pretty much all Abrahamic religion work great with the concept of LS, just change a few names here and there and there you have it. There might even be a Vodoun version of LS.

>>50255493
I'm going to make a voodoo or muslim member of the Lance if I have to make a new character due to a bad case of death. They are going to spend a huge amount of time lamenting being the only one of their faith in the local covenant.

>>50255515
Pious Muslims are actually supposed to be pretty chilled around other people of the Book, aka every monotheist ever, since monotheism equals Islam regardless of specific trappings in their theology. Then again, it depends on the school. Wahhabi LS might as well be the explodypants sect.

>380 replies
what did i miss last thread? Was there something in the monday meeting?

>>50255602
No, we just had a great time shitposting.

>Butthurt athiest doesnt like how religion is literally perfect in WoD
>Numerous people refute him
>Nuh uh! but it is tho!
I am sorry but was this goof trying to find things to be offended at?

>>50255740
> thinking that it was about religion
Stupid!

Give me one good reason why a Vampire shouldn't think that all the Covenants suck and join the Freemasons instead.

>Secret handshakes
>Cool hats
>No political discussions
>Can eventually become a Shriner
>Possible crossover with upcoming Lizardman books

>>50255968
Freemasons have meetings during the day and try to help people, which deals aggravated damage to vampire ego

Apparently my group is doing a one-shot of Demon in a week or two. I've never even touched the book - what can I expect? My experiences are with V20, Mage the Ascension and Hunter the Vigil.

>>50256177

Which Demon?

>>50255968

Because all the cool splats already joined them so you dont wanna seem like a poser.

>>50256192
Should be The Fallen if I'm not mistaken - the group plays with the V20 ruleset so it's a logical leap.

Following that then, what's the differences between the two?

>>50256319
Fallen is utter trash, while Descent is the best line in CoD so far.
Long story short, Fallen is the usual oWoD gothic nonsense about crawling in my skin, while Descent is a magitech spionage game of gods and demons.

>>50256485
> crawling in my skin
To elaborate, your morality meter is literally the measure of how butthurt you are, and your goal in the game is to stop being butthurt (and maybe also not get eaten by a Cthulhu wannabe in the process). It's somewhat like Promethean in this regard, except that you don't even have any downsides to your condition and start the game stronger than most splats get after 50-100xp.

>>50256485
>gothic nonsense about crawling in my skin

>implying anyone plays WoD for anything else

>>50256576
To be fair, it's kind of hard to feel angst with demons. You're one of the race that literally created the world, and you have it all for yourself, with the only thing bothering you being where the fuck did Yahveh go, which, as far as existential crises go, is pretty tame. Really, old!demons were like prometheans in motivation, but like beasts in attitude.

>>50255602

>>50252345

A vampire who confronts his inner monstrosity by being a genuinely good person, who feeds responsibly, maintains regular contact with his touchstone, and kills horrible monsters that endanger humanity such as Werewolves.

>>50256485
>Fallen is the usual oWoD gothic nonsense about crawling in my skin
Its not that bad.

>>50256485
>Fallen is utter trash, while Descent is the best line in CoD so far.
its like bizzaro opinions.

>>50258274

I like both, though I think Fallen could use a new edition that steals some of the great stuff that wound up in Devil's Due later on.

>>50255968
>join the Freemasons instead

I, for one, have no desire to secretly serve mages...

>>50257361
>who feeds responsibly,
>committing lethal damage responsibly
>everyone you feed from might die and become a revanent
>maintains regular contact with his touchstone,
give them lots of willpower
>and kills horrible monsters that endanger humanity such as Werewolves.
werewolves do more to protect humanity than endanger it
even when hunting them

>>50258715
Don't worry, they're probably a mummy cult honestly. Much worse to work for

>>50257361
Werewolves are spirit world border patrol, they are the good guys. A vampire who wants to do good would be better off killing cults and captain planet villains

>>50258726
shrugs, depends on the wolf I guess. On the surface, how is one suppose to tell the difference or know that they are doing it for any betterment ?

>>50259092
>Werewolves are spirit world border patrol,

Werewolves, Making The Shadow Great Again!

>>50255968
Lizard man book?

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The one horror that Chrodniggers cannot handle in their games.

Not child abuse.

Not rape.

Not total obliteration of existence.

A lack of verifiable statistical breakdowns for probability events assuming x number of die

OH THE HUMANITY

>>50260116
Well excuse me for wanting to know how useful character options are before committing to them

>>50260116
I don't get it. You mean pre-calculated tables included right in the rulebook? You can make them in thirty seconds with Excel.

>>50260116
What?
You're not even trying at this point, are you? I'm not even sure what you're trying to say.

What's with the picture, though? Is this one of those visual pun things? I forget what they're called. Rubrics?

>>50260615
>What?
>You're not even trying at this point, are you? I'm not even sure what you're trying to say.

I'm trying to point out the uncomfortable existence amongst your kind of this kind of person;
>>50260143
>Well excuse me for wanting to know how useful character options are before committing to them

hahaha, fuck storytelling, fuck collaborative experience. The true face of Chrod, ladies and gentlemen; more shylock than a rules lawyer, the Chrod-Darkie cannot abide a system that doesn't benefit him in hard stats. Why play a character that's interesting or even - gasp - fun? Not when you can autismo 500% and only take options that translate into backyard min-maxxing. Old World players are mocked for wanting a specific weapon for characterisation purposes, while aspie arguments amongst Chrodniggers over "best weapon" or "best Discipline" break out with every subsequent new edition. Behold your true face.

(yeah, no idea about the picture but I personally think someone went full Brucato on a street dealer... "I VOODOO CURSE THEE, TRAVIS "CHOCOLATE KRUNCH" O'HARA!!!")

>>50260882

>fuck storytelling, fuck collaborative experience

Storyteller isn't a great system for an actual narrative experience and the acknowledgement of such is the foundation of almost all modern games.

I'm sorry that you hitched your horse on an older version of an overall OK system just to yell at other people using a newer version of an overall OK system.

>>50261388
>Implying just because all modern games are now being narrative means that's the absolute way to do it
Relativism is for faggots

>>50261388
>overall OK system

Where? Is there a new version of Owod/Chrod?

>>50260882
>hahaha, fuck storytelling, fuck collaborative experience. The true face of Chrod, ladies and gentlemen; more shylock than a rules lawyer, the Chrod-Darkie cannot abide a system that doesn't benefit him in hard stats. Why play a character that's interesting or even - gasp - fun? Not when you can autismo 500% and only take options that translate into backyard min-maxxing. Old World players are mocked for wanting a specific weapon for characterisation purposes, while aspie arguments amongst Chrodniggers over "best weapon" or "best Discipline" break out with every subsequent new edition. Behold your true face.

What the fuck are you talking about?

>>50254205
>The big thing for me is that you can't have the Sabbat-Camarilla conflict in one coterie

Well, you can. It all depends on the individuals (and the city) in question, really.

That said, it's pretty rare (understatement of the century) for the Cammies and Sabbies to work together, unless there's a common foe that wants to see both sides dead.

Examples being; Large groups of Hunters, Werewolves (and other shapeshifters), Kuei-Jin and such.

I once ran a story in which the coterie was made up of two Camarilla, two Sabbat and one Anarch sympathizer, as they worked together to keep out a Kuei-Jin invasion force, centered around the chinatown district in London.

The biggest problem arises in keeping the group together *after* the fellow enemy is dead and buried OR after the group failed their job, but it *can* be done. Sometimes sloppily, sometimes elegantly.

It's all down to the individual Storyteller's skill (and that of the players, of course), provided none of the characters are of the "NO NEGOTIATION, KILL ALL THE <insert enemy sect here> WITHOUT DELAY!"-variety.

...The Sabbat has a lot of those, admittedly. Especially in the lower ranks.

>>50261566
If you don't like crossovers, any independent clan can function as a mutual enemy with sufficient resources to cause trouble. After all, Giovanni and Setites take organised crime with them as they go, nobody trusts a Ravnos and both they and the Assamites represent the thin tip of a very big wedge.

>>50261566
>keeping the group together *after* the fellow enemy is dead
Their common experience taught them all something their superiors might kill them over. Same way any vampires get to be friends.

So. In a Mage game I run, there is a character who agrees with the Exarchs, but not the Seers as an organisation.
Any advice on how to run that game?

Oh, and it's a Pentacle btw.

>>50261752

This is true, though many independent clans present problems serving as a "common enemy". That's not to say that those problems and obstacles can't be overcome, mind you.

For example, the Giovanni Clan and the Camarilla have a non-interference pact with one another, the "Promise of 1528". So, any official Camarilla agents must disguise their appearance or make sure the Giovanni aren't alive to report their involvement, otherwise the Camarilla's higher-ups are gonna call down the thunder on said member and present them to the Giovanni in a nice, gift-wrapped box.

The Assamites would work nicely, especially with the extremist Web of Knives faction who are all "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, VAMPIRE SKULLS FOR THE THRONE OF HAQIM!". However, they'd probably be limited to areas in the Middle East and Africa for the most part, since that's where the major concentrations of Assamites are located.

Ravnos, much like the Sabbat, are for the most part not very high in numbers outside of Hindu/Indian-dominated areas. And if the story is set after the Week of Nightmares, the Ravnos are basically a non-threat, with only around a hundred members left (and no powerful elders, so 8th gen at most). Could be an invading force, though.

Followers of Set... probably the easiest one to incorporate, and a clan that everyone loves to hate. It's one of the few clans that the Camarilla and Sabbat alike could agree to exterminate, for various reasons. The Sabbat because the Followers of Set actively worship their Antedeluvian and seek to bring him back (which is anathema to the Sabbat), and the Camarilla because the Followers of Set keep trying to corrupt and take over the Camarilla's members and holdings. The Followers of Set are pretty widespread as well all across the globe despite their major holdings in Egypt, with even scandinavian branches like the "Hall of the Jormungandr" and the "Children of Loki" to use as possible enemies depending on the story's background city/country.

>>50262204
>Ravnos, much like the Sabbat

Whoops, meant to say "much like the Assamites".

>>50262204
Hunting down the Ravnos doesn't really make sense to be honest,considering they don't even keep in touch with others in the clan so there isn't even an enemy in the first place.

>>50262257
Also. Aren't they all extinct nowadays?

>>50262278
I was trying to ignore the Week of the Nightmares thing like most people do,but if your ST says it has already happened in your game,yeah they are.

>>50262299
Btw, how does V20 handle the Ravnos?
Also, is there any word on what nuWhiteWolf will do with them?

>>50262323
Their vices no longer have to be basic criminal acts,it can range from mass murders to helping kittens stuck in trees as there is no distinction on if their ''vices'' have to be a good moral act or not.
If you mean storywise,they were nearly exclusive to gypsies when they were first out.With every iteration it has become more of ''The clan mainly has indians,lots of gypsies but can be other races too''

>>50261967

So basically a guardian of the veil just replace magical jebus for exarch.

>>50262488
Not in the slightest. This character has gone along the lines of "But... most people ARE unworthy of Awakening! People need to be kept in check. The Exarchs are right!"

>>50262409
Is there a substitute to the Ravnos on VtR?Both chimersty and the vice stuff-vise.

>>50262663

Nothing direct, but a Daeva that picks up Nightmare might do the trick. Eventually Awe and Nightmare could be Devotioned into Chimestry-like effects.

>>50258726
>committing lethal damage responsibly
You can always have a ghoul working in a blood bank who can hook you up to tap of still warm sweet sweet 0+
>everyone you feed from might die and become a revanent
Only disgusting pleb who wants to catch something icky feeds directly from human, you are supposed to use single-use syringe, collect blood in wine glass and than savour it as civilized being, not like some animal.
>and kills horrible monsters that endanger humanity such as Werewolves.
True, werewolves are more entertaining game than foxes. Also fox hunting is now sadly much more regulated.

Does V:TR have example vampires in the GMing section? I'm in need of some simple vampire mooks

>>50262663
Chimerstry is closest replicated by Nightmare. Only everything has a horror-touch. You can't make the illusions not-scary with Nightmare.

In VtR 1E the Daeva were driven by their vices. This was changed in 2E, but they are still very passionate.
Over-all, I think the best would be to make a Mekhet bloodline.

>>50262797
>You can always have a ghoul working in a blood bank who can hook you up to tap of still warm sweet sweet 0+

Not in Requiem, you can't. Blood loses it's potency FAST. Only a lingering touch of the Vitae remains after the blood is no longer "living".

>>50262839
There were some in 1e if I'm not mistaken.

>>50262839
No statted vampires in 2e, just strix.

>>50262905
If it's just few minutes it's fine, more than few minutes and less than whole night it's cold blood (vampire needs to drink BP*2 pints of blood to get single vitae)

>>50253908
While you really shouldn't be encouraging active murderhoboing in CoD of all things, yeahhh, if the dude's already dismembering folk, I can't help but feel finishing the job is the NICE thing at that point...

>>50254114
Masquerade was great but it had a lot of problems, particularly as its run continued and it began to resemble undead superheroes fighting the apocalypse more than, well, a game about the trials, drama and personal horrors of a group of predators desperately clinging to what little humanity they have left.

Requiem has its ups and downs too, but it's definitely more 'grounded' on the whole and easier to play straight.

>>50262278
>Also. Aren't they all extinct nowadays?

Ehhh, not really.

While the Ravnos get assfucked during the Week of Nightmares and are reduced to only 100-ish members (and no elders, so no-one's higher than 8th gen), it's explicitly stated that the Antedeluvian's hold on the Ravnos disappears at the end of the Week of Nightmares, and the remaining Ravnos are free to do whatever they want.

So, the survivors (who are most likely trying to cope with vampiric PTSD and almost certainly having been forced to diablerize any fellow Ravnos that were nearby) are free to embrace and live their unlives as they see fit, and all that.

But in terms of the power and prestige they once held as one of the thirteen clans? Yeah, they're "extinct" in that regard. Now they're just a band of scattered refugees, rather than an actual clan.

>>50262323
>Btw, how does V20 handle the Ravnos?

Well, V20 is storyline agnostic, meaning Storytellers are free to ignore the Week of Nightmares (and any other major event in the WoD timeline) as they see fit. You wanna play the Ravnos pre-Week of Nightmares? Go ahead. You wanna play the Ravnos post-Week of Nightmares? Go ahead. You wanna play ANYTHING during WHENEVER? Go ahead.

>>50263304
>no elders, so no-one's higher than 8th gen

Ugh, sorry, I meant "LOWER than 8th gen".

I actually like the Generation system in VtM, but good god can it be confusing to talk about, heh.

>>50263304
>Free of the antedeluvian's and the elders grips
Holy fuck if Gehenna wasn't coming I could easily say they were the future of the vampires.
It's not even easy to hunt down the remaining ones because of their powers too

>>50258726
Can 2e kindred not tell when they're about to exsanguinate someone?

Besides, the feeding rules in VtR are dumb as hell. By the logic of the drained condition, just donating blood would do something like six points of lethal damage and a BP1 vampire would need to drink two blood packs to get even a single point of vitae.

The conditions automatically applied by the kiss are honestly more prohibitive to responsible feeding.


Also, not only would a vampire not know that Werewolves are good guy spirit detectives, most Werewolves are evil anyway. The Pure outnumber the Forsaken two to one I believe?

>>50263214
>resemble undead superheroes fighting the apocalypse

The best time in masquerade, i love masquerade as game of occult knowledge, dark magic, ancient powers and little politic sprinkled on top.

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So, I'm running a cyberpunk OWoD (VtM specifically), and would like to know if anyone has any supernatural explanation ideas for pic related. I'm planning on making the story a bit about the world collapsing (Works for both cyberpunk and WoD, huh?), and wonder what I could use as a grand conspiracy to explain pic related in the setting.

>>50263831
VtR had a clan consisting of plague-bearers,although I can't remember their name with the exception of the first letter ''M''.I guess you could somehow put them in as a secret bloodline nobody knows about.

>>50263876
The Morbus. They're Mekhet and should be updated in the Dark Eras companion. I don't think they fit with the mysterious plague since they need living people to feed on. It's probably some Wraith related thing.

I wanna print a nice poster as a christmas gift for my girlfriend, anyone got a good WoD wallpaper that would look good?
She's a fan of Mage and Vampire, her favorite clan is Malkavian. I'd really appreciate it.

>>50260882
But that's not true of CofD, and everything that is true is true of almost all games.
>Old World players are mocked for wanting a specific weapon for characterisation purposes, while aspie arguments amongst Chrodniggers over "best weapon" or "best Discipline" break out with every subsequent new edition
Are you at all implying to me that oWoD players never did whatever they could to justify Celerity and Thaumaturgy? I don't even think anyone has ever brought up a "best weapon" outside of pointing out how ridiculous the M1 Garand was in 1e, but I never saw anyone use one.

Are you also implying that everyone who plays CofD is making their character based on the stats? Other than people wanting a certain power, I've rarely seen that, either, though I'll admit there are always people arguing that certain things are objectively better in every situation and that you should always go for Gnosis, or whatever. But, again, that's the same kind of thing that happens in oWoD as well.

And, frankly, every system.

You're not trolling very well.

>>50261967
>>50262488
Guardians wouldn't like the Exarchs. No one does. The Exarchs are literally oppression. They're the totalitarian state in a dystopia.
>>50262528
>"But... most people ARE unworthy of Awakening! People need to be kept in check. The Exarchs are right!"
Until that last line, that's literally the Guardian's philosophy. They see Magic as only being fit for the sturdiest of souls, and if you aren't one you don't deserve your toys.

That's not really even what the Exarchs do. They try to stop Awakenings simply because it's harder to control someone when they're no longer a sheep.

So what if anything is the news on a second ed of geist?

>>50264041
Core is in first draft

>>50262895
>You can't make the illusions not-scary with Nightmare.
Nightmare's illusions also aren't really the same. It'd probably be more of a Devotion of Obfuscate. Or just a Devotion period.

>>50263756
Drained is losing half your health, though.
I'm not sure how making someone Swooning is prohibitive to responsible feeding, aside from the date rape drug implications.

>>50258726
>>50263756
Werewolves in 2e do good as a side effect. They could just as easily perform the Siskur-Dah on charity heads and child stars that speak out at the UN about human rights abuses.

>>50263831
~Magic~
Also, do they understand how quarantines work?

>>50263906
>Morbus update
Yisss
My favourite clan.

>>50264057
, , ?

>>50264107
Look at the monday meeting mang
http://theonyxpath.com/when-in-doubt-time-to-play-monday-meeting-notes/

>>50264057
>>50264107
So for some reason I can't post letters on my phone when in thread view mode, only on the page view, fucking weird.

>>50264118
Thanks for the heads up, just really looking forward to seeing how they fix my favorite line.

>>50264092
Don't forget that the siskur-dah doesn't necessarily have to end in a slaughter, nor does it have to be on a particular person, a great hunt can be aimed towards an organization just as readily.

>>50264118
This, for fuck's sake. I'm not up for getting some more assburnt aspie rage for posting the cliff notes version again. Follow the link and read.

Do we know why Hunter 2e was taken off the progress notes?

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>>50263970
I assume you mean oWoD though.
I wish I could find a full sized version of this.

>>50264197
While it doesn't have to be slaughter, I feel like it's rarely going to not be. It's also worth noting that it doesn't even have to be human, or related to humanity. While the "border patrol" elements are gone and they can instead hunt mortals (or other things), they can also just... hunt things that pose a challenge and don't have anything positive or negative to do with humanity.
I also think you need a specific target for the Siskur-Dah. Most of the Rites treat you as having one Prey. An Organization would provide multiple Hunts.

>>50264254
>I'm not up for getting some more assburnt aspie rage for posting the cliff notes version again.
People called you out because you acted like you were God's gift to the thread, and said "don't ever say oWoD never did anything for you", when no one even asked for it.
Don't get all whiny about it threads late.

>>50264289
Didn't even notice that it was. Allegedly they've contacted the writers, but they haven't mentioned anything about it. They were going to give feedback, weren't they? I'd expected a blog post...

Is there anything like the masquerade in VtR?
How do they check vampires going medieval on mortal asses?
Also did they change the way diablerie work?

Would a human that is meaningfully disconnected from humanity before being embraced start with lower humanity?

>>50264551
yes

>>50264460
There is a masquerade. While no worldwide vampire "government" exists to enforce it, the local princes are merciless on those who break it, if only to avoid mortals going medieval on their assess as well. With no generations, Diablerie raises blood potency, its vague equivalent that shows how old and powerful the vampire is.

>>50264586
Thanks,but how are there princes if there is no government?Do the strongest guy just say ''I run this place now''?

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>>50263970
>a good WoD wallpaper
>>50263970
>favorite clan
>>50263970
>Malkavian

How 'bout this?

http://orig05.deviantart.net/66cf/f/2012/236/1/6/vtmb__catatonia_by_femmeinfernale-d5c91q8.jpg

>>50264654
More or less. Some large groups called covenants exist, and the Invictus (think Camarilla but more decentralized) and the Lancea et Sanctum (vampire Catholics with extra evil) may appoint people to run a city.

>>50264092
Well of course magic, but you can't think of any grandiose conspiracies with antediluvians and wraiths and such to throw behind it for a good overlooming apocalyptic mystery?

So I've been reading the books while bored on my daily commutes and I've noticed that every single example of a sexual relationship I've seen has been homosexual.

I'm not sure if this is because literally every example in the books is gay, or just because they use the word "lover" specifically for homosexual relationships, but it's fucking everywhere. Do women not have male lovers (and vice versa) in the World of Darkness? Does all heterosexual sex occur strictly within the confines of marriage?

>>50264386
>People called you out because you acted like you were God's gift to the thread,

How? I posted the cliff notes version because every week, without fail, someone doesn't read the fucking thing. So sorry if that impacts on your personal plans, oh lord of hosts. And it wasn't "people", it was you, being a faggot as per usual.

> and said "don't ever say oWoD never did anything for you", when no one even asked for it.

I want you to find a human dictionary and look up the word "humour", you flaming aspergers poster child.

>Don't get all whiny about it threads late.
You love that word. "Whiny". If I had a buck for every time you threw that out there, I'd never pay for POD again. You say it so much that Freud would argue a clear case for projection. QED, motherfucker.

>>50264834
that's because fuck the cis-gendered scum and their disgusting normie hetero-fucking.

>>50264834
It's just counterculture. Same with using every variation on gender neutral pronouns under the sun, with the exception of 'they'.

Same with the nonsensically sexual touchstones. Getting together with your bro to give him frosty brojobs while watching Monday night football.

>>50264834
Eh. No. They aren't. About a third are.
Read again. It might just be that you aren't reacting to hetero relationships.

>>50264834
>Read again. It might just be that you aren't reacting to hetero relationships.
This.
The writers make a conscious effort to not treat heterosexuality as the default, and that makes homosexuality stand out.

>>50264891
>Same with using every variation on gender neutral pronouns under the sun, with the exception of 'they'.
No, that one is because prescriptivism. They're using an outdated style guide that says they isn't singular. I think Promethean let it through, but in Mage there's a gender neutral mind-demon with a write up that uses his/her. It's... painful to read. Give me a dozen zer and xie before a his/her.

>Same with the nonsensically sexual touchstones
Vampires in Requiem don't become asexual corpses. The Touchstones actually give a *lot* of examples of things that wouldn't be possible in 1e, like vampires who were Embraced after their deaths.

>>50264918
>>50265083
It's more that I'm reacting specifically to the word "lover", which I genuinely have yet to see used to refer to a heterosexual partner.

I see "husband" and "wife" a lot, hence the last question (although a lot of those are sexless, dissolving relationships).

>>50265083
The use of nonstandard pronouns instead of the commonly accepted they/their has literally no purpose than to draw attention to the use of nonstandard pronouns.

And don't even pretend the purpose of things like frosty brojobs aren't weak jabs at conventionally masculine activities. That the writers apparently think football games are held at night speaks volumes.

>>50265201

Monday Night (American) Football is a thing.

>>50265157
"Lover" is slightly below "Partner" in terms of "you're not fooling anyone, we can tell you're implying a homosexual relationship but don't want to come out and say it".

>>50265201
Who cares about nonstandard pronouns? I honestly don't understand why people get so incensed by them. I mean, I guess I get that most of 4chan and Reddit are under the mistaken notion that queer people will *literally* bite their heads off if you don't use their quirky terms (without even knowing about them), but that's not really a thing that happens, and most first hand accounts come from people who refused to be decent and are salty they were told off for it.
https://youtu.be/36egVNVBqZU
Of course, you better get used to it, the future generations are even more socially accepting and willing to shrug off the heteronormative attitudes.
https://mic.com/articles/137713/queer-teens-are-now-the-majority-goodbye-straight-people

>That the writers apparently think football games are held at night speaks volumes.
East coast best coast.
And, sure, it's a "jab" at a conventionally masculine activity (and of course we all know sex with other dudes is totally non-masculine), but if you think that masculine guys don't suck each other's dicks, I have some videos for you, but this is a blue board. Down low sex is a thing, and that's what that sample touchstone is about.

Yes, the book is very queer. It acknowledges and shows off non-normative people. I'm not sure why I should see this as a negative.

A steam powered difference engine that makes exceptionally accurate predictions of the future when punch cards written in high speech are inserted.

Are you a bad enough dude to steal the arcane computer?

>>50265222
5:30 pst isn't exactly nighttime except in the middle of January.

>>50265311

Still evening, and even then Monday Night Football is still a pop culturally relevant term.

>>50265294
>in the future everyone will be gay
Fuck

>>50265311
Anon, California's sunset today is going to be 4:48. Also, you do know there's an entire country's worth of people who *aren't* watching it at 5:30PST, right? Do we need to explain time zones to you?

>>50265383
No, queer. Binary sexuality is for losers.

>>50265294
Nobody said you should care, I said it's just counterculture.

There is a very distinct difference between having examples of gay relationships because you're supportive of LGBT people and using blunt, graphic deceptions of gay sex for the sole purpose of immasculating groups of people.

Frosty brojobs is LITERALLY a visual example of the writer saying "look at these repressed faggots" and then feeling smug thinking he's being inclusive.

>>50265383
>2016 not having your ass double fisted by a German hair dresser while a Vietnamese rent boy attaches jumper cables to your testicles.

Come on anon get with the times.

>>50265410
I used to get in trouble for calling people queer

Is this some Clerks 2 Porch Monkey taking it back shit or something?

>>50265432
>Vietnamese rent boy attached jumper cables to your testicles
I got enough of that in 1969, thank you

>>50265412
I feel like you're projecting, or reading into things. The kind of people who write these things aren't the kind of people who find gay sex immasculating in the first place.

>>50265432
That's not gay, that's BDSM. Remember RACK (or SSC if you prefer) and have fun.

>>50265475
Anon, the phrase "We're here, we're queer, get used to it" is literally older tha--oh, wow, nevermind, it's only from 1990.
But, yes, many LGBTIQA organizations and people do use the term "queer".
The difference is it's okay for someone to call themselves queer, not okay for someone else to call them queer while throwing a beer bottle at their head.

http://www.uua.org/lgbtq/identity/queer
>Oh jeez, this is the best one I found on a Google and it's from the hippy church

I went to a UU church and a meth head kept trying to hit on me.

>>50263214
Yeah, I'll agree the metaplot direction definitely was the biggest downside of oVamp. I still stand by what I said about Requiem just not inspiring me as deeply though with its flavor, though.

>>50263304
Near as I've been able to tell? There's more references to the Week of Nightmares in fucking Mage 20th than anywhere in V20, heh.

>>50265294
>"Lover" is slightly below "Partner" in terms of "you're not fooling anyone, we can tell you're implying a homosexual relationship but don't want to come out and say it".
Yeah, it's just weird to me to see it used exclusively for gay stuff; I tend to see it used appropriately for (and interpret it as) "person you're sleeping with (and are legitimately fond of about, as distinguished from just 'fuckbuddy')", regardless of the sexes of the participant, so when I read it it comes off as "gay people are the only ones with actual sex lives".

In the context of creative thaumaturgy what does 'persistent' in a 'persistent condition' mean. Does it mean a condition that persists even after the spell ends like a 'lasting' effect?

>>50254114
>>50265895
See, I can understand where people are coming from with this, I guess, but to me I'd rather have no flavour and a buffet over an exquisitely prepared meal where I don't like the taste.

>>50266122
I've actually rarely seen "lover" mean "person you love". I've actually always found it odd.
But I also hate that the proper term for "someone you're sleeping with and fond of but not engaged or married to" is just... "[gendered]friend".

Like, if you're thirty, calling someone your boyfriend sounds weird.

>>50266139
Persistent Conditions are Conditions that last across scenes. Many of them are listed as "Persistent", and have a way to gain a Beat each scene, as opposed to just Resolving it.
A Persistent Condition lasts for the duration of the spell, unless it is something Lasting. (Using Space to twist someone's leg into a gross painful mess would probably require a bit more than just time)

So lately I've been enjoying reading Genius: The Transgression again. Enjoying it immensely and making characters just for the fun of it.
I haven't even played more than a handful sessions of wod ever though. The thing is, I also want to be a special snowflake and by extension let everyone else be special snowflakes by playing in a mixed-splat chronicle.

How fucked am I if I bring this idea to some roll20 or whatever equivalent group?
Internet seems to be the only option I have.

Also, do people care about being "balanced"? It seems powers vary wildly across all splats.

>>50266322

>Mixed group on a Roll20

Turn back now.

>>50266322
>>50266430
No, Anon Dive in and enjoy the explosions. Just don't get attached to anything

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>>50266322
Actually if you're in for all the fan splats

Princess?

>>50266483
>>50266430
What makes it shit though?
Is there even another option to use?

>>50266551
Pick up groups are almost always bad, and mixed splat games are almost always bad.
You want both.

>>50266601
No one I know seems to be interested in tabletops though. I've tried asking and talking about why and how it's a fun hobby. Pickup is my option for now.

Mixed or not is far more negotiable.

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>>50266551
Either they get together and do -pic related- or they try to back stab each other and blow up the city

>>50266636
>I know that feel Anon

just know what you'll be getting yourself into. Be patient and expect a lot of not getting it together to start with. But at least pitch your city well enough and highlight the weird a lot more than the politics to start.

>>50266322
>Bringing a Genius to a mixed group
No. This is why people hate Genius.

>>50266544
Princess is the only fan splat that has some kind of living editing going on so it is mechanically more solid than it should be. We have one in our mixed game and his hope is slowly being eaten by the shit we're up against and doing ourselves

>>50266756
Literally asking how bad an idea it is before I do senpai

>>50266245
Sorry I'm not sure if I'm following. Check my arithmetic.

For example say I Blind somebody for a day with Life magic (because I'm an asshole like that).

As I understand the rules I could do that with Life •• provided the condition is not persistent as blindness is a mundane effect. I could also create a Blind tilt with +1 reach on an attack spell or with Life •••. Finally with Life •••• I could create a persistent form of the condition.

In the case of Life •• they should remain blind the entire day but they can only gain a beat from the spell. If they get into combat they use the blinded tilt.

In the Life •••• example they should remain blind the entire day but they'll gain a beat every scene the spell inconveniences them. If they get into combat they also use the blinded tilt.

If I create a blind tilt with an attack spell it's resolved once the target heals from the damage provided I did not do aggravated damage. If I create it whole cloth with Life ••• in the middle of combat presumably it behaves like the Life •• effect.

Sound about right?

>>50266769
Pretty bad. Mixed games are often problematic in their own way, but with a decent GM and good players you can make it work. But your odds of finding that right combo with randos is pretty slim. Add to that the fact that even good GMs may not be familiar with fansplats which have their own themes and possible major issues integrating their canon into whatever they're up to (Genius doesn't get along very well with Mage I think? I remember seeing someone break down why it was shit in the past, but it has been a while.) or the fan work itself just being mechanically shit even by the standards we expect from OPP

>>50266812
Because of my limited experience in general and not caring all that much about the maths of A vs B I can't say much about mechanically shit.

All I truly know is the creator himself doesn't really know if high dots are balanced or even reasonable.

As for mage, I don't remember the lore on why magic works. But yeah probably since genius is pretty much crosses the "sufficiently advanced technology" line.
It does acknowledge itself as a no one really knows what the fuck really is going on under the hood kind of weird technology at least.

>>50266757
Go on, I'm all ears.

Me and my local group play tested it a few years, because a new GM wanted to run it for a lark. And then we actually started to enjoy it. I liked the transform skills / attribute system. I liked that until you transform you're a normie for the most part. The exp cost break of transformed skills and att let me save a few points and hide them, and made using those extra skill dots situational. So I enjoyed the trade off. My buddy called it going supersayian

>>50266544
Haven't read it actually. What's it about besides I guess princesses? What's special about them?

>>50266944
It's a magical girl rpg

>>50266944
It's basically Nanoha and Madoka in the WoD.

Nobles are reincarnations of people who lived in some magical civilization that was destroyed by darkness and despair, sort of like Changeling: the Dreaming or Exalted. They're also effected by the emotions of people around them, and sadness and despair cause them physical pain.

Their schtick is that they go out and fight Creatures of Darkness to prevent the world from being swallowed up by despair.

The whole thing is that sort of "hey, you know how this genre is about preteens and teens fighting evil things that would have adults running and hiding? Isn't that pretty fucked up? How do they function" kind of take on Magical Girls that I really love, even since before I knew it was a legitimate subgenre.

I just really like seeing stuff like that treated as being terrifying and sad and nightmare enducing, but still being all about love and friendship and hope and justice.

>>50266944
Someone wrote a grimdark Magical Girl splat, patterned along the lines of Sailor Nothing where you're magical girls/boys powered by hope trying to fight the darkness of the World of Darkness and inevitably failing in time as you take on something too big for you or your hope is crushed by the world.

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>>50266944
Dying Light of the World. A Princess/(Prince for males) is basically a person who was dreamed / a connection with a long gone idealized world.

You fight the darkness. But you know the tag line. World of Darkness and all. It's going to get bad. If you don't end up pic related. You can become jaded and lose hope. And if you lose all hope. Also pic related

>>50267037
It's Mami, though with those titties I can understand calling her Mama.

>>50266812
I've been reading the books side by side a bit but I think I need to read all of mage again to really get it.

The actual awakening/catalyzing is very similar. Magic seems to work because you want it to. Mania works more because you're pretty sure it should according to your theory right not about it.

I'd love to see that comparison you mentioned though. Was it a post on 4chan or was it floating around elsewhere so I can go look for it?

>>50267094
Yeah I believe that was suppose to be the intention for the naming choose. Her character was suppose to be the mature motherly type of the group. Offing her early really hit home the. HAHAH NO Fuck you You're fucked. Like that was the moment I knew i was actually going to like this series after thinking my buddies were just being weeabus

>>50267165
Aww and here I am. Having gotten this far only knowing "it's not what it looks like, it's darker" about the series. I got spoiled in a completely unrelated thread.

Guess I should take my time and actually watch it so it can't be ruined even more.

>>50267165
There's a reason they call Gen Urobuchi "Urobutcher"

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>>50267205
It's only three episodes in, so it's not too much of a spoiler. I'm surprised you made it this long. It's kind of a "it was a sled" moment. Then again, like I said, >>50267208 this is the director's forte.

Mami getting her head bitten off isn't even the most fucked up part of the show

>>50267149
It wasn't a comparison so much as a 'Genius is bad and you should feel bad, and here's all the reasons it is bad despite on the surface looking more cogent than other fansplats'. I don't really disagree, I think that Genius is kind of superfluous in the world where we have Mages acting out their own obsessions and madnesses, but you like what you like.

And it was here, but it was months ago so it won't be in the archive anymore.

>>50267236
Three episodes isn't that bad. Good to hear.
Also I refuse to read that spoiler just in case.

>>50267264
I mean, it's not that I dislike mage. Behind changeling it's the most interesting canon splat to me. Mages in general in any game are the most interesting classes.
There's just something about "making magic with technology" that appeals to me even more.
Too bad it's gone then.

>>50267264
>>50267149
http://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/cythereal/genius-the-transgression/

I haven't read this, but it seems relevant.

>>50267306
Eh, I'm sure if anyone who has read it and has a strong opinion about Genius is online you'll get some analysis. This thread doesn't move that fast, and people should get off work on the east coast soon.

>>50267034

So kinda "you either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain" or something?

What's the end result if you got no hope left? Death? A return to (depressive and hopeless) normality?

I'm intrigued.

>>50267149
magic isn't about "belief" per se in Mage: the Awakening. It's about forcing your way into heaven through a combination of luck & willpower & stealing the keys to reality.

Mages are fueled by their connection to the Supernal, not their own will.

>>50267321
>Genius: The Transgression is a fan-made game line for the New World of Darkness, probably the largest and best-known of its kind. Genius proudly presents itself as a game about playing mad scientists, ranging from Leonardo da Vinci to Dr. Frankenstein to Bruce Banner. However, when you get right down to it Genius is a game about playing unappreciated sperglords who struggle with unemployment while building nuclear weapons in their garage.

Also, Dr. Frankenstein is covered in Promethean and Deviant is coming soon and I bet will get us a nice mini-splat in there for mad science like how Vampire also gives us ghouls.

>>50267332
Too bad I'm in europe and will be going to bed just as soon. It's approaching midnight here.

>>50267321
I'm reading, but see >>50267306 about my stance on technology = magic. I don't mind but can't quite put my finger on why right now,

>>50267376
>What's the end result if you got no hope left? Death? A return to (depressive and hopeless) normality?
Worst result is turning into a giant monster and going on a rampage. I think there's also a powers fade option, though they don't fade with age so if you manage to somehow maintain hope and not die in your job you could probably get a pretty badass older Princess who might be on the cusp of figuring out how to make the jump to Queen (which isn't just a title jump but seems like an actual fundamental change in state)

>>50267376

Some of your powers, and you ablity to transform into magical girls is depend on your Belief(your integrity stat). If your belief gets low enough, you kind of just don't feel the juice and either take a more back line roll, or give up.

If you hit 0 Belief You can turn into a Dark Princess/ Witch, and just explode. It's very much the Death Spiral

>>50267390
Well A Free Consul Mage could look at a Genius and and think that's the literal application of their philosophy of Magic from Technology. Technology being the reflect of mankind's work pressing onto the Supernal. And the Genius abilities a shortcut in that regard.

>>50267321

Kind of related, there's also one for Princess.

http://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/xelkelvos/princess-the-hopeful/

>>50267589
>Another forums.RPG.net production that doesn't understand the importance of editors, images, and turning extra content into supplements
They're pretty harsh but they are right about the clear structural issues with the thing. I feel like content wise I actually think Princess is stronger than Genius as a fangame but clearly is still just that.

>>50267589
there are like three attempts to work through the pdf. But the pdf keeps getting updates. and honestly their isn't enough material to riff on. as compared to other rpg works like beast

>>50267589
Their Princess review is a lot less well done. It sounds like that reviewers first stab at such a thing I guess

>>50267737
If they could get an actual working budget, that would be cool. then they could pay artists and get a few eyes to look over the text. but that would include a lot of extra work, dough and legal work. Maybe a go fund me?

The criticism is fair, but for what they're working with, it's not a bad splat

>>50267753

http://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/kurieg/beast-the-primordial/

Speaking of, it seems this Beast one is mostly done.

>>50267376
You become Dethroned
http://princesswod.wikia.com/wiki/Dethroned

>>They had been watching the warehouse for hours when the Darkspawn came. It wasn’t an attack, no, they were running. The Darkspawn ran straight into the firing lines in a blind panic. In moments monsters were reduced to smouldering corpses in a rain of noble magic Then the Princesses saw what the Darkspawn were running from.

>>It was enormous, taller than the warehouse and tearing the building apart like tissue paper as it strode forward. It’s body was human, with it’s flesh pealed away exposing muscles intertwined with unearthly clockwork. It’s movements stuttered in an unnatural mimicry of human grace. It gave out a scream of screeching metal, the sound staggered the Princesses. In it’s cry they felt it’s despair, impotence, and something else.

>>“My god. That thing’s a Princess!”

>The Dethroned are born from suffering, and from their birth they’ll create little else. It’s not as if she plans it, for all intents the Dethroned are incapable of planning anything. No, things just happen around her. A fallen Noble is like a poisoned wound, spreading toxins through the Dark World. Her very presence twists the Darkness around her until it reflects the events and pain that led to her fall.

>>50267321
Ok that took far longer than I expected even when skipping the quotes from the book, skimming parts fast and skipping the very bottom about antagonists and bardos.

>Perhaps appropriately, my closing thoughts on Genius are that there is definitely a strong game idea to be found, but is let down and shackled by poor execution, being too beholden to oMage, and a general lack of focus for what the game is about.

It mostly just felt like a dude showing off the game and explaining parts with his own words. It wasn't looking down on the game more than "this is just oWod mage" or "it's just technomagic" at parts. While at the same time somewhat conceding that it's kinda allright for it to be technomagic. It didn't help me see why it's actually bad in any real way.

Thanks for the reading material though.

>>50267589
There were three Princess reviews, and that one was the only one that looked reasonable. It was dumb, too. I mean, like >>50267737 they're right, but that just feels asinine?

>>50268040
I feel like this is just... too wrapped up in public perception.

>>50268135
I can't get behind a game that's basically "this other game was shit, let me make a new version". So much of it is informed by the creator hating Awakening.
I have a friend who likes Genius, but personally I feel like it has no business being considered a World of Darkness game, and would be better if it divorced itself from that concept entirely.

It also feels like a different system would make it more reasonable, since in the WoD having a bunch of robot minions and gadgets feels weird, and most of your powers being based on what you can *build* is unusual and poorly fitting.

>>50268040
oh I've actually been following this one. nice to see progress on it.

>>50268189

You're more than welcome to write a Beast review that you feel is more valid, but this is the most comprehensive review out of any of the attempts to look at it. It's got its reputation, and the review gives strong evidence as to why.

>they're right, but that just feels asinine?

Not at all. All fansplats and homebrew should be compared to their professional counterparts when presented as a major project like this, and part of writing a corebook is to know when to get to the point and when to save something for a suppliment.

>>50268460
>All fansplats and homebrew should be compared to their professional counterparts

The level of expectation of an professional expert is a lot higher than the level of expectation of an armature hobbyist.

Its why I don't got to streetwalker and expect the same quality as one of those high class french brothels

>>50268601
>I don't got to streetwalker and expect the same quality as one of those high class french brothels

I do.

Maybe that's why I keep killing them afterwards, my standards are too high

>>50268664
Maybe you should try leaving a bad Yelp! review instead.

>>50268460
>You're more than welcome to write a Beast review that you feel is more valid
That's generally bad form in response to criticism I do need to read the whole book through, but that's a lot of work.

>All fansplats and homebrew should be compared to their professional counterparts when presented as a major project like this
People getting paid should not be the benchmark of people not getting paid.

>>50268601

With the barrier to entry in the industry being so low, I can't say I really agree. If you're just presenting stuff at the table, that's fine, you can do whatever, but if you're putting it up for the community to look at, the least someone can do is make a single editing pass.

>>50265157
I use "lover" for any relationship, straight or gay. Apart from feeling more agreeable - they love each other, right? - it confuses the hell out of the straights.

>>50268824

It's less a response to criticism and more a rebuttal. Academic critics do that stuff all the time.

>>50265383
A recent study showed straight men enjoyed looking at pictures of erect penises as much as gay men. Straight, gay... labels we invented for convenience, to describe a desire, now corrupted into petty tribalism. Don't worry about such delineations - fuck what makes you drip.

>>50268901
Are you the person who keeps critiquing my work?
You can't expect someone doing something for free to be held to the same standard as someone who gets paid. That's just common sense. The barrier is low, but it still exists. Pouring through looking for typos is not something people are going to do unpaid. Doubly so in a living document like this.

>>50268931
I've always been taught that "well why don't YOU try" is bad form.

>>50268901
>barrier to entry in the industry being so low

When they start selling their product to the market place instead of throwing it out there for free. Then we can have that discussion.

>>50265927
Yes, but Mage 20 is objectively an overpriced scrapbook.

>>50268971
Recent? Isn't A Billion Wicked Thoughts like five years old now?
https://youtu.be/p-A8GvUehq4

>>50268189
Honestly in the CofD if you want technomagic you should fear the hand of the God-Machine.

Though actually that'd be an interesting reinterpretation of Geniuses, as people burning with the God-Machine's arcane lore in their heads. Their projects are all working towards occult infrastructure as much as what they want because the madness of inspiration that drives them is the cold brilliance of the machine. Though that'd make them inherently antagonist splats to Demons.

>>50266668
I'm having trouble seeing why either option is a bad thing.

>>50268997
>Satyr intensifies

>>50268972

It's not "why don't you try", it's "if you feel that the criticism is flawed, you must criticize the criticism, and present your corrections". If you think they're wrong, it wouldn't hurt to prove them wrong.

>pouring through looking for typos is not something people are going to do unpaid

They could just call it a pre-release, that always seems to work.

...That's a joke.

>>50269238
>you must criticize the criticism
Critics criticizing criticism.
It's critics all the way down.

>>50269075
It's true though, M20 is so chock full of feces they might have well as used raw human waste for printer's ink. How do you DO that? should be responsible for the entire Onyx Path production team being extradited to face war crime charges at the Hague.

If this trend continues, Wraith 20 will be the greatest single abomination to hit the tabletop gaming industry since D&D 4th edition,

>>50269319

>since 3rd Edition

Fixed that for you.

Wraith20'll be fine, they actually went and got the good dev for the line.

>>50265311
There is this funny thing called latitude.

>Just as a pause with the block of text, unless the player wishes to play a villainous PC or this is during the last throes of a game, once a Princess hits 0 Belief, they're essentially out of the game and can become a MacGuffin that the PCs need to protect.

Well yes, asshole. Once a vampire hits Humanity 0 they become a ravening draugr and need to be put down. Hitting 0 on the integrity track is game over sometimes. Not necessarily all the times, mummies started their first Descents at memory 0 and recovered in time and I think that Werewolves don't have a game over condition there, but it is a point with some splats where it is time to make a new PC.

>>50269720
>Hitting 0 on the integrity track is game over sometimes. Not necessarily all the times
It's almost as if that's why they stated what happens.

>>50269771
Yeah, I was taking issue with the tone there I guess. Which is stupid since you're right they do go on to post the next part.

How does Resilience work for Ghouls, considering that, unlike Vampires, a Ghoul still needs his organs to not be dead.

>>50270048
Probably just plain hardening of their bits or something.

>>50270048
>>50270102
I always figured it would work more or less the same. You take the damage but everything works just fine, and you'll keep having the damage until you heal.

Also I allow Resilience to give a Ghoul more vitae stores, but I've heard from somewhere (but not seen for myself) that the writer of that section says they don't get extra vitae.
Personally I think Ghouls should just get 5, not [Stamina].

Stupid question: can a Promethean Calcify Flux Alembics?

>>50270477
I have no idea what that means but it makes me angry.

found this story while looking for changeling the lost styled stuff and inspiration

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBi0OkPRU_Y

pretty cool stuff

>>50263831
The Bunyip. The Marsupial werewolves have returned, and gone full force Impergium.

>>50269022
There was a LOT of overlap between the Storytelling Chapter of Demon's Techgnostic Espionage section and the Storytelling Chapter of Genius's The Dark Mechanical section.

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Is this the place to ask if anybody has a running HtV or BtP game going on? My long running v20 game died like a week ago and im fiending.

>>50271804
you can use this general or you can use a gamefinder thread if one is up

>>50271822
People use this thread for things other than nerd rage?

>>50271859
I use it to fap to nerd rage. Its just so sexy

>>50262724
Nightmare in Requiem 2e is pretty Chimerstry-like anyway.

>>50272013
Just what is Chimerstry and how is Nightmare like it?
I thought Chimerstry was more like making illusory objects and things like that, whereas Nightmare is about instilling people with primal dread.

So in Forsaken 2E under wolf senses, vision, it says that they ignore any penalty due quick movement. Does this mean werewolves ignore the penalty to attack rolls give by vampire celerity's passive power?

>>50272450
no
celerity = supernatural ability

senses apply to perception based checks, not combat checks.

Basically. You can track his movements, but he's still faster than your bullets

Saw Dr.Strange the othe day, how well would you say their depictions of magic can translate into Awakening 2e?

how do you guys handle predator's taint in requiem?

>>50273235
How do you mean?

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>>50273235
Well any sane man would have to look deep within himself and reflect on WHY THE FUCK AM I DIDDLING A LION'S NEITHER BITS ?!?!?

Seriously thou. The PT was meant to try and reinforce the whole Vampires hate each other and compete like predators for the same resources, And the idea of vampires eating anf fighting each other. In practice led to a lot of why are we a society? stick. More often than not picrelated happened to not destroy the session

The Predator's Aura in 2ed works better, it forces people into pitting their beasts against each other

>>50273838
Source on the anime? That seems funny at least. I feed on high school comedies I guess.

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>>50273886
Sound Euphonium

>>50273972
What's funny is that a different gif of that same moment was used in the Princess review linked up above

>>50272910

Pretty well. The time between strange's accident and his first visit to the astral is a good example of a mystery play. The mirror dimension could be a phase of twilight. The dark dimension could be a lower depth lacking the concept of time. Kaecilius is a scelestus, mordo is a banisher.

Strange does very little magic himself he relies more on artifacts and bargaining with spirits/other ephemeral beings.

>>50272910
>Saw Dr.Strange the othe day, how well would you say their depictions of magic can translate into Awakening 2e?

DaveB indicated the sorcerer weapons in Doctor Strange were great examples of Platonic Form weapons.

http://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/50201531/#50206922

>>50268040
Just started reading. Why can't people let fiction be fiction? Why give a shit if it happens to share stuff with the gay community or whatever?

>>50274382
More importantly why would a minority want to be compared to an ancient evil that preys upon humanity for petty reasons?

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>>50274406
The fact that it's someone else doing the writing, and the comparison can be made, leaves the minority group dis empowered. And it could be seen that the writer is implying heavily that the minority group is in fact petty and preys on humanity to a stint. Even when mostly likely its more unforeseen consequences rather than outright malice

There are a number of other questionable thematic choices. That vare away from the Show don't Tell style of writing

>>50270477
is this some sort of steel beams meme

>>50274485
You're taking away even more of my hope in humanity with this anon.

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>>50274627
>>50267037
Drown in despair

Of CoD's that have WoD equivalents, which do you think was most improved? which do you think were worse?
I think Werewolf is much cooler with the whole spirit world balancing act. It allows for all kinds of cool trip spirit quests and folklore type stuff. The whole captain planet Luddism of the original never really grabbed me.
On the other hand I don't like the Descent, why call your game Demon and fight angels if your game has nothing to do with actual Abrahamic religion?

>>50272377
>I thought Chimerstry was more like making illusory objects and things like that

It's all about illusions, yes. Making people think they are smelling something where there is no smell, hearing sounds where there are no sounds, seeing things where there is nothing, etc.

As the Kindred grows more powerful, he'll eventually learn how to create dangerous situations and scenes that can "harm" his opponent, to a degree. The illusions aren't real however, and the only real damage being done is to the victim's mind, not body. And if they see past the illusion before they lose consciousness, all of the "damage" to the mind is reverted.

On the really high levels (Methuselah and Antedeluvian levels), it gets to the point where the illusions can be made into reality. Air can be turned into actual fire, a candle can be turned into actual live tarantulas, and so on.

With the highest power, the Cainite can essentially force an item or a victim out of existence. And depending on his successes (and the victim's saving throws) the victim may just end up severely damaged and hazy (like a ghost) and have lesser physical stats for the rest of the scene, but if there's enough successes the victim just gets rewritten out of reality and outright vanishes, never to be seen again.

>>50263214
>particularly as its run continued and it began to resemble undead superheroes fighting the apocalypse more than, well, a game about the trials, drama and personal horrors of a group of predators desperately clinging to what little humanity they have left.

Don't give me that, fucko. Early VtM was drastically more wacky than late VtM. Zombies, mad scientists, Cyberpunk crossovers, etc.

>>50263756
The amount that the Pure outnumber the Forsaken is ST's discretion and varies by area, but 2:1 is a good start.

The retarded thing is that many non Werewolf books, including Mage ones, talk about werewolves as if Forsaken are the only ones they will meet, whereas Pure hate and hunt mages.

>>50273838
>>50273235
The trick is to not treat it as if it was full bore Frenzy. A circling and hissing and barring of fangs is what it should be. If even that, since it's hard to fail, due to the inherent social modifiers that most Predator's Taint will have.

>>50274382
Well, while I agree that people are reading too much into Beast and always have been, even the worse original draft, "why can't people let fiction be fiction" is a kind of complacency and state of mind that leads to a lack of critical thinking.

>>50274485
>>50274406
>>50274627
Beast, like all WoD and CofD games, is about being a general metaphor. Beast is about whatever you want it to be about, same as X-Men. And, like every other Of Darkness game, Beast is in many ways an empowerment fantasy, and more than most others it's a game about being a badass monster that gives payback for all the nasty things people have done. Matt wanted a game about scaring people (because apparently that wasn't represented enough in the WoD?) so you play as the monster under the bed.

I feel like most criticisms of the game, like "show, don't tell" kind of fall flat. It honestly doesn't seem that different from any other of the WoD games to me, other than more obviously being skewed towards a Vampion style of play (that I'm sure the game will no doubt tell you to avoid).

>>50274988
I think they're all improved, but Werewolf not being ridiculous angry ecoterrorists is probably the best. There are so many improved things on every level, even beyond getting rid of the whole Apocalypse against the Wyrm, Captain Planet pollution-for-polution's-sake villains. Like the fact that Werewolve's relationship with the Spirit is more meaningful than "just because". They feel properly shamanistic and liminal.

>>50275514
I'd say that's more like Obfuscate Devotions--of the type you'd get in a Bloodline--than Nightmare. But then again, I do kind of like the idea of a Nightmare that seeks to instill other emotions.

>>50275809
Well those books are primarily for crossover with Forsaken.
I've always seen Hunter as primarily being about dealing with The Pure as opposed to the Forsaken. Likewise Scelesti and Seers as opposed to the Orders (though that's not to say Order Mages aren't just as shitty sometimes)

>>50267037
>>50274811
>>50267019
I'm going to add that it is essentially impossible to become a witch-analog in Princess.

>>50270477
Off-hand I'd say that they can, and that it's terrifying.

>>50272377
Nightmare starts as subtle fear-enhancing feelings, and grows into straight-out illusions. Who on the fifth level can cause physical harm.

>>50272910
Sleepwalker with Telekinesis merit, and Relic Attuned.
Refluff telekinesis so that it has welding sparks.
Give him an imbued item that allows him to create portals, and an artifact that allows major time fuckery.
DONE.

>>50275844
Is it?

>>50275887
Yeah, but with it's focus on fear, it feels ill fitting for anything else.
Like I said, though, I would be interested in a Bloodline who's special trait is reworking Nightmare to do other things, like not be about fear.

>>50274988
Vampire is better because of the removal of the suffocating social structure, giving PC's a chance for agency.
Werewolf is better for being actually nuanced, and not being anti-science.
Mage is better for not having science represent stasis, and removing the fucking stupid consensual reality themes.
Changeling is better for not being an anti-science otherkin fantasy.
Hunter is better for being normal humans taking up arms against the darkness, not being super-heroes empowered by the internet.

>>50275900
>Like I said, though, I would be interested in a Bloodline who's special trait is reworking Nightmare to do other things, like not be about fear.

Better mix up some Obfuscate/Dominate/Auspex devotions then, I say. I'd base it on the Khaibit structure.

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Has anyone ever RP'd out the moment of a Mage's Awakening? How did it go down?

>He says,
>"Intuition is awakening suspicion."
>He says,
>"My tradition is the art of superstition."
>"This condition is a slow decomposition."
>He says,
>"My religion is the practice of sedition."

>>50275917
Yeah. The last campaign had an Awakening-scene for each of the (five) PC's.
I only used Lovecraft stories for inspiration for two of them. (From Beyond and The Festival).

>>50275910
>better
I don't think that word means what you think it means

>>50275925
So Vampire is better if the PC's can't do shit, due to Elders?
Werewolf is better when you face captain planet villains, while dressed as the cover of a Manowar album?
Mage is better when you spend the entire session on what exactly causes paradox? (The Technocracy were awesome though, I will grant you that)
Changeling was better when it was all about being a secret fairy, and keeping fun and imagination alive in a world full of boring adult stuff?
Hunter was better when you were literal superheroes?

oMummy I grant you though. nMummy simply doesn't work for me.

>>50274382
In this case, because the developer specifically compared them to Beasts and likewise explained that Heroes are his way of railing against MRAs, PUAs, etc., in a very ham fisted metaphor.

And people wouldn't be making the connection if the dev (Black Hat Matt?) didn't beat people over the head with it and become furious that people were sympathetic with Heroes.

>>50275963
>I was actually thinking more "Nightmare, but with slightly different effects"
>So Dread Presence that gives bonus to Subterfuge instead of Intimidate. Face of the Beast that causes Intoxicated or Humbled instead of Frightened. That sort of thing.
>I sort of did a thing like that with "Vicissitude is just Protean with Devotions".

Yeah. I also built Vicissitude as an extension of Protean. With some stuff like shifting around physical attribute dots on Fleshcraft, and creating equipment and weapons with Bonecraft.
And some stuff like Coccoon to allow you to more "organically" work on yourself, so that you didn't need tools and stuff.
And a Horrid form that boosted your stats, and also activated all Protean additions. Made it fun.

That said, just attribute-swapping Nightmare would require something more. That's way too limited for a Bloodline power.

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Third try's the charm. I should start linking the images before I type.

>>50275900
>reworking Nightmare to do other things, like not be about fear.
Pic related.

>>50275914
I was actually thinking more "Nightmare, but with slightly different effects"
So Dread Presence that gives bonus to Subterfuge instead of Intimidate. Face of the Beast that causes Intoxicated or Humbled instead of Frightened. That sort of thing.
I sort of did a thing like that with "Vicissitude is just Protean with Devotions".
Or, you know, something like Wet Dream.

>>50275956
People would have been making the connection.
I don't even see what the problem is with the metaphor in terms of Heroes. I think it's great.
Also, people trying to be sympathetic with Heroes is honestly a little super fucked up, since Heroes are explicitly stated to be jerks. The reason he goes on about people saying "Heroes are firemen do you hate firemen?" is because Heroes are the type of firemen who burn houses down to rescue people and get credit for it.

>>50275993
Fair enough. Answering here too then.
What did you do for Tzimisce clan flaw?
I went for something based on the Path of Metamorphosis.
If they don't change themselves, or people around them (read Touchstones, or people connected via Merits), on a regular basis, they start to go insane-er. The bigger the change, the longer before they have to do it again.

>>50253861
Its a book against totalitarian socialism. How is this hard to grasp?

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>>50275988
It's a good start for a Bloodline's gimmick.

Also, my Vicissitude is just Protean outright. The only thing that's not adding new ways of using Protean is that I allow for characters to shift attributes.

Once you get to Protean 4, you already have a form that rivals the Zulo form of oWoD. Hell, Chiropteran Marauder was the sixth dot, wasn't it? You can fly at Protean 4 (and glide with 2).

>>50276000
>What did you do for Tzimisce clan flaw?
I think you suggested that to me. I still can't decide what I want to focus on, but I still don't know how to rewrite the Tzimisce clan as a whole. Nothing satisfies me. I don't want to force them to do something that actively degrades their Humanity, either. That's actually one of my problems. I want it to be *possible* to play a Tzimisce who is high Humanity, same as any other vampire.


>>50253861
>>50276016
>The American scholar Scott Lucas has described Orwell[117] as an enemy of the Left. John Newsinger has argued[118] that Lucas could only do this by portraying "all of Orwell's attacks on Stalinism [-] as if they were attacks on socialism, despite Orwell's continued insistence that they were not."

Orwell was a Socialist. Also, I was about to type "he likely wouldn't have seen the Soviet Union as Socialist to begin with", which apparently Orwell biographers agree
>the other crucial dimension to Orwell's socialism was his recognition that the Soviet Union was not socialist. Unlike many on the left, instead of abandoning socialism once he discovered the full horror of Stalinist rule in the Soviet Union, Orwell abandoned the Soviet Union and instead remained a socialist—indeed he became more committed to the socialist cause than ever."[60]

>>50275792
Wasn't Clan Gangrel originally meant to be the werewolves of the World of Darkness before somebody thought up Fuzzy: The End?

>>50276212
Yes, pretty much.

>>50275949
>So Vampire is better if the PC's can't do shit, due to Elders?
They can do plenty, they just have their place in a social hierarchy instead of running about, accountable to no-one.

>Werewolf is better when you face captain planet villains, while dressed as the cover of a Manowar album?
As opposed to playing Minutemen on the border of the spirit world with a so-called "werewolf" that can't even shapeshift for more than 30 seconds, yes.

>Mage is better when you spend the entire session on what exactly causes paradox? (The Technocracy were awesome though, I will grant you that)
So you're blaming the setting because a portion of it went over your heads? No-one in my games ever struggled with the concept. Paradigm was something they had a bit of issue with, and certainly the game could have done better to explain how cabals of mages with radically different paradigms can even co-operate, but I'm not ditching the baby with the bath water just because one idea seems too complex.

>Changeling was better when it was all about being a secret fairy, and keeping fun and imagination alive in a world full of boring adult stuff?
Yes. It was about savouring the moment and holding on to childhood wonder as long as you can. Changeling in nWoD is generic monster stuff. You could have changed the fae to grey aliens, the Hedge to a dimensional barrier system and the magical alterations to DNA tweaking and the game would be different in cosmetics only.

>Hunter was better when you were literal superheroes?
Yes. They were the heroes the oWoD deserved. Anyway, every major splat had the inherent idea that power is a two-edged sword, and this concept carries through to the New World. This is the same idea behind nearly every Marvel superhero ever created.

Superheroes are just the mythical heroes of old in capes and tights. Check out the Epic of Gilgamesh sometime.

>>50276261
>They can do plenty, they just have their place in a social hierarchy instead of running about, accountable to no-one.
Except the people around them, like normal people. Look. I expect a game about vampires to be about the horror of being a vampire. Not a gonzo shitshow about a war between biblical-era demigods. It's even worse when that war is supposed to control every single city on the planet, with every prince, baron, or head big-man being in some way a puppet of those elder than themselves.

>As opposed to playing Minutemen on the border of the spirit world with a so-called "werewolf" that can't even shapeshift for more than 30 seconds, yes.
Yes, even 1e was better. 2e took everything that was good with Forsaken, and made it better, and threw out the bad parts. Now it's about being a hunter, and a monster. Not about being a furry super-hero.

>So you're blaming the setting because a portion of it went over your heads? ...
I'm fucking summarizing. The concept isn't difficult. But since you solved the issue, go ahead, tell everyone on the internet which view on Paradox is the correct one.

>Yes. It was about savouring the moment and holding on to childhood wonder as long as you can. ...
And the preciousness of childhood has nothing to do in a fucking horror game. Being abducted by monsters and learning to become your own creature again, however, does. That the Others can be Greys is a feature, not a bug.

>Yes. They were the heroes the oWoD deserved. ...
If I want to play Exalted, I'll play Exalted. Thank you very much. Hunter is infinitely enhanced by it being normal humans fighting the evils of the night.

(Quotes cut short to save space)

>>50270477
No, to calcify an Alembic you need to complete the role which is part of appropriate refinement first, which is not possible given the fact the refinement of Flux has no roles. I guess that fluff explanation would be, that you can't internalize lesson of something that teaches no lessons.
On the other hand given what I wrote above, it's question how are you even supposed to learn more than single alembic from Flux.

>>50276261
>They can do plenty, they just have their place in a social hierarchy instead of running about, accountable to no-one.
Isn't that what VtM is filled with, though?

Also, you can argue that Forsaken is bad because "you can't shapeshift for more than 30 seconds", but that's not even true. It's only Gauru form, and that's only if you don't want to get overtaken by Rage, which is sort of the whole theme: that you have to skirt the unquenchable rage if you want to accomplish things.
And calling them "Minutemen on the border" is disingenuous when it's not like Apocalypse's schtick for Werewolves was any better. At least Forsaken--and especially 2e, which is what anyone praising Werewolf is going to be talking about, and which does away with any pretense of being "border patrol"--makes it so that they're viable shaman. It also makes all five of their forms meaningful and "true", whereas just sleeping outside of your Breed Form took a Merit in Apocalypse.

>Changeling in nWoD is generic monster stuff.
>[Hunters] were the heroes the oWoD deserved.
> ಠ_ಠ

>>50270589
>>50274587
"Alembics" are the individual power sets of a Transmutation. Each Transmutation has three of them. Transmutations in Promethean are based on what Refinement you're currently a part of, and transitioning into a new Refinement means changing your Transmutations.
"Calcifying" an Alembic means paying an Experience cost (in Vitriol) to keep that Alembic when you take on new Refinements.
Flux is the Refinement of the Centimani, Prometheans who abandon the Pilgrimage and stop trying to become Human.

>>50276340
I don't recall you needing to complete a Role first. You keep one Alembic and choose another when you move into a different Role in the same Refinement, but you don't keep it when you move out of that Refinement.
Flux works on ST fiat because it's for antagonists.

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>>50276308
>vampire
the emphasis on the nature of the horror was up to individual storytellers. The scope of a game could be one vampire dealing with regular folks a la "Forever Knight" if the ST wished. Don't blame Mark Rein-Hagen because your ST wanted Dallas with fangs.
>werewolf
I'm not going to argue semantics with you like an Aspel clone. All I will say is that "superhero" is a nebulous enough concept to include hunters and monsters, simply by virtue of the fact that they hunt worse monsters (Venom, Blade, The Punisher...) and leave it at that.
>consensus solved
Paradigm as personal delusion. What you can do and believe behind closed doors is free and your own, but when you try and do it around Sleepers you end up looking crazy & suffering paradox. Sleepers all agree on things, that reinforces the consensus, so one country is different to another due to local folklore. Easy.
>the slow erosion of innocence and watching your friends give up on their dreams and forget you isn't personal horror
Aspel please.
>Hunter Vigil master race
There is absolutely nothing stopping you from cracking out Hunters Hunted 1 or 2, Project Twilight, The Inquisition or The Arcanum rules from oWoD and playing them. Even better, those characters don't slowly lose their minds and souls just as a default consequence of doing their jobs.

So, in summary, I should stop liking what you don't like, because you like something else and therefore it's "better"?

Have a conversation with someone else. I'm going to do something pleasurable with someone who doesn't eerily remind me of being 12 and watching small boys punch each other up over calling The Emperor of the Imperium a fascist.

Can you just buy Humanity with EXP, no questions asked?

>>50276528
That would really undermine one of the major themes. If your ST is doing their job, you'd need to roleplay out doing something compassionate, showing mercy or restraint, putting others first.

>>50276539
But is it allowed rulewise?

>>50276527
>the emphasis on the nature of the horror was up to individual storytellers. ...
Sure. But the theme the books sent was "cog in the blood-soaked wheel". Saying you can do horror stories in Masquerade is like saying you can do political intrigue in D&D.

>I'm not going to argue semantics with you like an Aspel clone. All I will say is that "superhero" is a nebulous enough concept to include hunters and monsters, simply by virtue of the fact that they hunt worse monsters (Venom, Blade, The Punisher...) and leave it at that.
And the inspiration of comics like those are EXACTLY why Werewolf is bad.

>Paradigm as personal delusion. ...
Great. Now make the internet agree on that.

>There is absolutely nothing stopping you from cracking out Hunters Hunted 1 or 2, ...
But I'm not doing that. I'm comparing the oWoD lines to the nWoD lines, which means Hunter > Hunter.

>So, in summary, I should stop liking what you don't like, because you like something else and therefore it's "better"?
>Have a conversation with someone else. I'm going to do something pleasurable with someone who doesn't eerily remind me of being 12 and watching small boys punch each other up over calling The Emperor of the Imperium a fascist.

For fucks sake. YOU started this conversation, by attacking my opinion, and now you complain about me having opinions?

>>50276261
>>50276527
WoD is good for being 90's comics.

>>50276592
>>50276308
WoD is bad for being 90's comics.


So it's 90's comics. Get it. Thanks for the explanation.

>>50276527
>the emphasis on the nature of the horror was up to individual storytellers. The scope of a game could be one vampire dealing with regular folks a la "Forever Knight" if the ST wished. Don't blame Mark Rein-Hagen because your ST wanted Dallas with fangs.
This is a really shitty argument. Certain games work better for certain playstyles, and if a game works better for one playstyle while selling itself as another, you very much can blame the game for that.

>Even better, those characters don't slowly lose their minds and souls just as a default consequence of doing their jobs.
It's almost as if "hunting monsters is a terrifying and soul crushing job that makes you lose faith in humanity and existence" were a theme of the game or something. CofD games don't translate to oWoD nearly as well as oWoD games translate to CofD.

Also stop misunderstanding how Morality/Integrity/et al work for fucks sake.

>>50276528
>>50276554
You can't buy anything no questions asked. "The rules don't say I can't" is a very bad excuse, because the game--most games, really--is built on the assumption that your group isn't just willy nilly allowing everything. I will concede that some games could stand to be more up-front about that (Pathfinder and other D&D derivatives come to mind. Every game of D&D and it's spin offs I've been a part of involved combing through 100 pdf sourcebooks for things that clearly weren't intended to go together). It's sort of like that argument that was made that you can totally take Mystery Cult Influence for 5 Merit dots and then get 10 Merit dots and buy up Gnosis 3 at character creation for half the cost.

But I'm pretty sure Humanity explicitly states you have to work towards it, so that argument doubly doesn't work.

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>>50276609


>>50276592
>And the inspiration of comics like those are EXACTLY why Werewolf is bad.
He was talking about Hunter, actually.

>>50276528
>Can you just buy Humanity with EXP, no questions asked?

If you're talking about in the middle of a story-in-progress, then in theory, yes.

In practice though, any competent Storyteller is gonna go "Okay, at what point during the last few hours/days did your character go through an experience that directly correlates with an increase of humanity?".

The same applies to any kind of trait or skill, really. If your character didn't spend any time at all firing a gun (successfully or not), it's illogical to go "he got better at firing guns!" in the middle of a story.

At the end of a given story (not the end of a game session) is different though, since there is often a gap of time of several weeks, months or even years in which the character could have taken the time to practice their skills. So they could go "my character spent some time training his aim in a firing range, so that justifies his now-increased firearms skill".

As for humanity though, since it's such an important trait, I'd rule that any player wishing to increase his humanity in-between chronicles would need to tell a riveting personal tale of how his character's humanity got increased. If they can't, or if they just go "i saved a guy or something, i dunno lol" then they don't get to spend EXP on that.

>>50276619
>He was talking about Hunter, actually.

Oh. Yeah. Now I realize that. It applies to Apocalypse too, though. With being super-human muscle-men taking down monstrosities.

>>50276611
>But I'm pretty sure Humanity explicitly states you have to work towards it, so that argument doubly doesn't work.
Could you find that page for me in VtR 2e? Thanks in advance.

>>50276308
>Yes, even 1e was better. 2e took everything that was good with Forsaken, and made it better, and threw out the bad parts. Now it's about being a hunter, and a monster. Not about being a furry super-hero.

I dont see how Forsaken is any better really, the games is just a hunt game and never move past that. You hunt each favored prey and an idigam and thats pretty much it. Maybe a you can hunt a concept to add flavor but the game is so constraining in its own structure that the only way to add something else is to disregard part of the game. So aside from "woe is me, character drama" nothing much to do than hunting.

Apocalypse on the other hand has many layers of playing, you can play it simple and as you said "just punch the wyrm" or you can explore the ancient society that has special flavor unique from the other splats. While many others have unmovable politics sustained by inmortals (things are done this way because X ancient being said so) Apocalypse society is generational in its politics similar to GoT (things are done this way because of a situation the generations ago happened). So there the whole barbaric society to explore.

So you can fight the wyrm or explore the barbaric society, or fight for social justice in either the garou nation or in human culture or go in into other realms on the deep umbra or even just find your niche on what you wanna do.

>>50276667
I feel like you're giving Apocalypse undue credit, while failing to give Forsaken (2e) the credit it deserves. Especially since most of what you treat as being solely Apocalypse's territory is also squarely in Forsaken's.

>>50276592
>Great. Now make the internet agree on that.

Why do you care about what the internet agrees on?

>>50276609
Not really OWoD is as much of a 90s comic as you make it.

>>50276667
Just because something is in Apocalypse, it doesn't mean it can't be in the successor.

The "enemy of all progress", is a theme that's unique to Apocalypse and "hunt all day erryday" is a them that's unique to Forsaken.

>>50276687
>Why do you care about what the internet agrees on?

I AM arguing with you, am I not?
But look, just because you think you've solved the argument about how Paradox and Paradigm is supposed to work, it doesn't mean that everyone agrees with you.

>>50276687
>Not really OWoD is as much of a 90s comic as you make it.
I will never understand how or why so many people are unwilling to examine a game's stated tone and be aware of it.

"B-but you can play it however you want" isn't really what we're arguing here. Yes, you can play it however you want. But the game very clearly wants you to play it in a very specific manner. And what people complain about when they complain about the game is what the game focuses on and how it wants to be played, as well as how the actual mechanics facilitate or hinder that style of play.

Your periodic reminder that Apocalypse was not and never was anti-science. In fact, science was clearly stated to be the most benign of the Weaver's manifestations, and in serious danger of being killed forever by the Weaver going crazy.

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>>50275844
>Never Lost faith in Humanity
>Dethroned
The average 4chan user loses Belief on a weekly bases bottoming at 3-4. and then at that point it's one bad day

>>50276682
>I feel like you're giving Apocalypse undue credit, while failing to give Forsaken (2e) the credit it deserves. Especially since most of what you treat as being solely Apocalypse's territory is also squarely in Forsaken's.

How so? Forsaken doesnt have a society and lack both history and traditions to back that up. Even 2E recognize that and got rid of social rites (rite of apology, rite of burial) that were useful and made sense in Apocalypse context but dont in Forsakens.

Idiots like Aspel argue you can make the Tribes/Garou nation of Apocalypse into forsaken as lodge but they are missing the point because forsaken lacks the weight of history and tradition that gives meaning to tribes and the garou nation in general.

Fighting the homophobia or just general shithead attitudes from a tribe with thousands of years of tradition and history to back them up is way different the fighting the same homophobia or just general shithead attitude from a lodge that you can might as well move out and not deal with them.

>>50276704
>The book says this thing once
>Even though it shows tons of examples otherwise!
Yes, the Weaver is not inherently bad, and the Glasswalkers have used technology in positive ways to facilitate the war against the Apocalypse.

But technology is also churned out by the Wyrm and seen as bad or stagnant and dangerous to humanity and the Garou Nation. Reliance on it should be seen as suspect, and it should clearly only be treated as useful but dangerous. In an ideal world, technology would not exist, and in the current world, it's primarily evil and destroying everything.
This is the message Werewolf (and in many ways most of the oWoD) sends.

"You raped our mother"
"You sold your soul to the machine"

>>50276698
>But the game very clearly wants you to play it in a very specific manner. And what people complain about when they complain about the game is what the game focuses on and how it wants to be played, as well as how the actual mechanics facilitate or hinder that style of play.

Oh but silly anon, that what you dont understand. People who make WoD or Chrod games are idiots. Their ideas on "how you should play" are to be discarded and ignored and you should just cannibalize their good concepts.

That the path to mental peace, all other roads lead to insanity.

>>50276698
>how the actual mechanics facilitate or hinder that style of play.

This is open to debate. I have meet many people who like the internal struggle and focus on PC mental struggle that find Chrod mechanics intrusive and hinder that.

>>50276756
I think that you're reading things into the world that aren't there. If there's any sort of inherent flaw in human science, it's that it fails to recognize the spirit world, and if that were to be corrected, everything would be okay. The trouble is that the Weaver's set things up so that the physical and spirit realms are being drawn steadily further apart. And of course the Wyrm's forces use technology; they have a much larger manufacturing base than the Garou.

>>50276746
>How so? Forsaken doesnt have a society and lack both history and traditions to back that up.
This is patently false. Also, it's false to say that Forsaken 2e "gets rid of" anything other than what's explicitly contradicted.

Focusing on local society doesn't mean there isn't society. Protectorates are a thing that exists. Inter-pack schisms and rivalries make up the majority of the sample settings.

Also, I am Aspel, and you're the idiot who misses the point I keep making to you. Forsaken better facilitates adding that stupid backstory baggage. It's not like there aren't stupid cultural baggages in the Tribes in Forsaken anyway. Try being a merciful Blood Talon.

>you might as well move out and not deal with them
Do you think Lodges are physical buildings?
They're as difficult to leave as the Tribes in Apocalypse

>>50276773
Please stop talking.

>>50276779
I strongly disagree and am tired of pointing out how anti-tech oWoD is. Several dozen people who've read far more oWoD than me have explained that far better than I care to.

>>50276756
>In an ideal world, technology would not exist, and in the current world, it's primarily evil and destroying everything.

And thats why the homeland of the Glasswalker is a utopia of a perfect mix between technology and nature....wait.

>>50276795
>I strongly disagree and am tired of pointing out how anti-tech oWoD is. Several dozen people who've read far more oWoD than me have explained that far better than I care to.
Please show me, if they're in this thread.

>>50276806
Your argument would sound better if the Glasswalkers weren't consistently painted as Weaver-worshippers and/or idiots.

>>50276843
The potential fall to the Weaver already happened, with the Cyber Dogs incident, and the Glass Walkers came through it. They're still loyal to Gaia.

>>50276795
>Also, it's false to say that Forsaken 2e "gets rid of" anything other than what's explicitly contradicted.

Well, there were social rites in 1st edition forsaken. They didnt made any fucking sense there. There are gone in 2nd.......i dont know whats you definition of getting rid off, thats seems the pretty standard definition.

>Focusing on local society doesn't mean there isn't society. Protectorates are a thing that exists. Inter-pack schisms and rivalries make up the majority of the sample settings.

Protectorates are a loose association of Packs for a common goals. Thats a far cry from the Garou nation thousand of years of traditions/rituals (not the magical kind).

Local inter pack conflict are present on both games. But Forsaken dont have a culture to speak off more that the loose that unify them.

>>50276795
>Try being a merciful Blood Talon.

You do realize you arent "born into a tribe" like in apocalypse but have to actually petition to enter them. Aside from that you can be a merciful blood talon and just beat pure up and not kill them (which would raise your purity or honor). And the other member of the tribe might think you are weak but aside from that unless they belong to the same pack they dont have a saying in how you live your life.

There is not established hierarchy on the tribes more than and there is no rank like in Apocalypse (spirit rank is only valid to spirits) and is more of a general "This guys is pretty honorable or badass might wanna listen to them"

>>50276637
I can't find anything on this.

>>50276899
>Local inter pack conflict are present on both games. But Forsaken dont have a culture to speak off more than the necessity of hunting that ties that unify them.

>>50276637
Reviewing the main nWoD book pg 92 has the below

>A character's Morality trait can be increased primarily by spending experience points, but Morality can be increased by only one point at any given time. See p. 35 for the experience points required to achieve each Morality rating. Storytellers are encouraged to require that characters demonstrate the desire to redeem themselves with concrete acts of contrition before a Morality increase is warranted. A good rule of thumb is to encourage character actions that aspire to the highest level of Morality that
the player wants his character to attain. A moral existence is much more about the journey than the destination, after all. Typically, the best time to allow experience points to be spent on increasing Morality is at the end of a story, but exceptions can always be made for significant
character actions between chapters or even scenes.

I would assume that the suggestions would carry over to each of Moralities replacements where applicable but it does say that it is basically the ST's fiat on how it is handled.

>>50276901
>I can't find anything on this.

Me neither, per raw is technically true nothing says you have to justify spending XP for raise humanity. Most DM wont let you though.

I personally i give humanity for free if you justify it during play and make you pay if you dont wanna justify it.

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>>50275820
>B
I know what they were going for, but it really did land flat. The criticisms can made.

The themes it try to play off, are done better in other game lines,(karmic distortion, being hunted, Beast I am least a Beast I become) while still trying to pretend they aren't the monsters they totally are.
>quoting
I'm not saying its a bad game, just missed the mark, by trying to backpedal it's monsters, instead of owning it. Which is at once amazing and also kind of disappointing, because the game still blamed Heroes for being Heroes. When their only real fault was being Near a Beast at one point in their lives and having a low integrity. They were a side effect of Beasts behaving badly and also their nemesis. They were at once a Beast's greatest shame and worst fear. If they had actually treated them sympathetically and had Beasts talk realistically about the fact that no matter how moral they tried to be they were one bad day away from ruining someone's life it would have been a much better and more mature game

The Crossover stuff can be cool, if the ST running can pull it off. but the big thing is trying to hammer home Hero = Bad, in the text instead of in the examples. When you can read them as a victim of circumstance as much as the Beast but they get a pass and Heros are Demonized for a very human reaction. It feels very weird and forced. Weird senses+Horror manifested=old school Hunter Reckoning. Even if they are the antagonist. The information they're working on, and the reaction is understandable

The weirdness of a Beast origin; is it a forced or self discovery? and the parallels of that and the alternative community, tacted onto the aforementioned. petty horror. (sadist tortures or pickpocketing are both legit feeding methods) That stuff is cool, but masking as teaching lessons is steering way too closed to "victims deserving it" argument. As a method of justification, it works. As a meta element, it falls flat when compared to the petty horror

>>50276966
I'll probably do it the same way. That EXP could have been spent on getting stronger instead.

>>50276491
>I don't recall you needing to complete a Role first. You keep one Alembic and choose another when you move into a different Role in the same Refinement, but you don't keep it when you move out of that Refinement.
>Flux works on ST fiat because it's for antagonists.
Huh, I read about calcifying again and I admit it isn't as clear cut as I remembered. But considering the given example and talking about calcifying alembic which you have mastered, it isn't unreasonable to interpret it same way as I did.

And now for something completely different.
I recently

>>50276978

Even the crossover aspect is probably going to end up being overshadowed by The Crossover Chronicle, though to be fair the Beast line will likely be completely over by the time it is published.

>>50276062
>1984

Animal Farm and 1984 are about a government run amuck. both display an upper class taking advantage of a working class. Both books take an assumption of government and extends it to its horrifying pessimistic conclusions. They're cautionary tales reflecting on what the writer saw going on around him, the idea that you can note it in both the world powers proves how powerful and relevant it was. 1984 was about a terrible system taking over people's lives. AnimalFarm is about terrible people taking over the system.

America at the time was trying to paint USSR as the enemy, so it made sense for an america scholar to read and think USSR and therefore socialist commie.

>>50276698
>as well as how the actual mechanics facilitate or hinder that style of play.

There is literally nothing in the mechanics forcing you to be at the beck and call of senior vampires if the ST doesn't want you to be. Stop blaming the game for your shortcomings as a storyteller.

>>50276756
I'll have "what is a conflation of modern marketing and 90's game design" for $50, please.

>>50277188
>And now for something completely different.
>I recently
nvm, forgot to delete that part

PDF or print? How do you source your books, anon?

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>>50276527
>>the slow erosion of innocence and watching your friends give up on their dreams and forget you isn't personal horror
>Aspel please

That wasn't your original assertion. pic related

Are there any media or just any storytime screencaps that can show an uninitiated such as me how CofD/WoD plays like?

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>>50276855
Falling to Weaver = Bad
Falling to Wyrm = Super Bad
Falling to Wyld = meh? Tragic

There is a very clear message here

>>50277345
I.. eh.. There is a podcast by one of the Werewolf writers. (Forsaken Werewolf, that is).

>>50276966
It's annoying that people shove their houserules down people's throats when someone asks a legit question about the rules.

>>50276899
>>50276911

It should be noted that nwod is renown for starting as a more or less human monster, and letting the players decide the depth of story they wish to pursue. In this way it makes it easier to get more and more story with how far down the rabbit hole they go. Nothing is stopping, and in fact the ST is encouraged to make the backstory as complex or as simple as the story needs.

Lodges and Protectorates are the tools that help facilitate so you can have those stories. And help add the background you want. While painting the basic archtypes characters as an x splat, while letting the y splat dictate the methods.

It's all a lot of signalling

>>50277345

Given the variety of the lines, there's nothing that I would consider universally definative.

>>50277395
Well, since the Wyld is the only one of the three not trying to destroy the world... I think the message is both self-evident and not terribly controversial.

>>50277467

I disagree. Its easier to remove than to add. I can make a apocalypse game with the pack vs pack focus of forsaken and remove/downplay the garou nation/tribal politics.

Is more difficult to create a uratha nation, thousand yeard old backstory with no support more than a barebones explanation of what a protectorate is.

If you preffer to do all that work good but that doesnt make it easier.

>>50277702
TECHNOLOGY BAD
HUMAN BAD
WEREWOLF AWESOME
>Message lot and clear

also thats bullshit, Wyld Weaver Wyrm work together. Wyld is random potential, and raw creation. Weaver is shaping. and Wyrm is simple natural entropy.

No matter the state as is (which again looking at the werewolves killing their allies) They're suppose to work in concert not in opposition.WW are suppose to keep it all balance. And with the message ww writers at the time wrote. is rampant Ludditism discounting the large amount of progress mankind has made. I mean really if the message was all bad would you even be typing your message of a weaver tool to the weaver's webwork?