>My elves are pointy-eared folks who live in the woods and

>>50224997
2 3 and 4 because they really don't add anything to the situation.

>>50225007
This. Don't fix what ain't broken, and don't change shit to pander to people who hate the genre.

All of them.
If elves aren't doing anything humans can't do, why have elves at all?
Bird people? Okay.
Sea folk. Go on ahead.
But literal "humans but prettier and live longer" can fuck right off.

>>50224997
1, 2 and 3, because Tolkien races are shit and having them exist in name only for recognition is weak ass pussy shit.

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>>50224997
>having non-humans at all

>>50225087
>If elves aren't doing anything humans can't do, why have elves at all?
To play with real-world racial themes while maintaining a degree of separation to avoid your players getting uncomfortable.

My elves are dwarves and my dwarves are elves

>>50225106
Nobody actually thinks like this for real, right? This "humans only" thing has to just be some sort of stupid meme.

I don't get why people aim to be original all the time in fantasy. Aim to make what you're doing good if it uses tropes and cliches so what?

I care much more about the game than arguing about this. I don't mind dealing with woodsies or cannibals or fungi or whatever, let's roll.

>>50224997
3 and 4, 1 and 2 can be good when done well.

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>>50225138
>>50225106
When people who grumble about how non-human races are superfluous spout the "no non-humans" meme, they actually only mean "no non-human player races."

As soon as they realize a true "no non-humans" setting leaves their character with no giants or ogres or fairies to fight, they're quick to backtrack to "I-I just meant no elfs and dwarfs as PC, I swear!"

>>50225149
2 is pretty much Darksun.

>>50225144
It's because GMs and worldbuilders are storytellers at the end of the day, and since the internet has allowed us all to pick apart every narrative, meta-narrative, and subversion there is it's easy to feel like every original story idea has been done already.

That's why people gravitate towards self-awareness, satire, meta, irony, and deconstruction so much these days. It allows you to tell a story that's already been told in a "safe" way while being able to wink-nudge your audience that you know you're doing something that's already been done before in order to avoid being called on it first.

>>50225161
It's not backtracking, you idiot, it's a clarification. I don't like nonhuman PC races because they devalue both humans and nonhumans, rendering down the elves into funny humans and making humanity just one of 6 choices. I actually like the elves in Burning Wheel, because they're actually just better than most men; They come with a disclaimer that they're VERY powerful, and that was a good choice. In D&D, elves are mental retards who come out of adolescence at 60 and turn into level 1 adventurers. I presume they spend at least 10 years shitting their diapers and still trying to master language.

>>50225202
OK, I didn't ask why. Let's play already.

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>>50225138
>Nobody actually thinks like this for real, right? This "humans only" thing has to just be some sort of stupid meme.
it can turn out okay.
Not in this book but it works
>>50225230
I like you anon

>>50224997
3 and 4
2 can be done right.

>>50225106
This is truly the worst.

>muh Tolkien
Just asking - and I know this'll probably attract shit, but I'm not trying to - is this an American thing?

There were a lot of people that wrote before Tolkien, and Tolkien is not the sole influence on a lot of good fantasy/SF we got after Tolkien either. I feel like seeing things only on the Tolkien axis is dooming yourself to a lot of binary positions you don't have to hold.

>>50224997
3.

1 is boring, yes, but it works.
2 can work.
Even 4 can work well if the ocdonutsteel race has at least a few traits to differentiate themselves from elves.

>>50225291
A lot of people on this board have had D&D and D&D novelizations as their only contact with fantasy. This is why you get people like this:
>>50225138

>"My elves are edgy cannibal fair folk outsiders, because I'm sick of generic elves and I have the completely original idea to take them back to their folklore roots (but like, ten times edgier)"
>"Oh cool, my elves are happy-go-lucky forest spirits"
MIURA DID THIS and he writes one of the most absurdly edgy manga of all time.

Of course, the fake elves were edgy as fuck as were the trolls, but still. Alfheim is just beautiful and harmonious and it kind of works.

>>50225194
Darksun is alright.

>>50224997

I know 2 3 and 4 are all awful, but #3 and #4 tie for me, and I legitimately cannot think of which would be worse to me.

>>50225291
Tolkien is the most well known "nerdy" fantasy author to normies, so people blame him for everything.

>>50224997
I'm just sitting here with mayan elves.

Joke's on you my elves are indentured servants banned from the woods and bows by the human not-nazi empire founded by hitler

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>>50224997
>my elves are vampires that live on the moon and only visit the planet as diplomats from their spacegod theocracy or for a snack/sex tourism.

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>>50225291
If I released a movie that came with a pamphlet that explained the basics of the setting in 2 pages and the finer terminology in 3, pic relateds would whine about how nothing made sense and how it was cuntfusing them. Why are they cuntfused?

Because they didn't read the pamphlet. In short; people don't read as much as they should.

>>50225382
Damn dude. Where'd you get my setting notes?

>>50225473
you'rs all blood-eyed moongrass addicts? Horns or antlers?

>>50225548
I like antlered elves

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>>50224997
>my elves are the descendants of an alien race that interbred with humans, forming half-breeds that were abandoned, but retained lingering elements of their parent's culture and technology that were later reinterpreted as magic
>they used to have a strong empire where they ruled over humans from 'heavenly courts,' but repeated human and orc invasions have destabilized their traditional power structure and the barriers of class that kept them immune from harm in petty warfare between their human soldiery
>their culture is slowly dying along with their 'purity' of race, with many of the 'pure elves' living in backwoods communities, others surviving in wider civilizations as the priestly or noble cast in city-states and isolated petty kingdoms, nursing dreams of rebuilding their empire and confident in eventual cultural victory - even now the orcs and humans are adopting elven language and customs

My elves are stocky short people who live in caves and love mining and metalwork.

>>50225309
the true elves are a collection of many different ways the elves have been represented in fiction mithology and fairytales. So that's cool I guess.
>>50225386
if your movie needed extra movie content to be understood your movie would be shit

Valid tiering of takes on non-human races:

>done right tier
either
>Going with the trope but shaping it with lot of depth and complexity and not being bland face-value copy of old trope - examples original Tolkien's elves
or
>Utilizing other, less known but equally valid source as a base (fae elves, melnibonean assholes, wagnerian dwarves, german original kobolds)
or
>no standard races, either humans only, like hyborian age or most of classic fantasy novels for that matter or completely original non-human races, provided they're good

>meh tier
bastardized versions of above, so basically what op stated in point 1. because that's actually shallowed and watered down and decomplexized version of thew original trope, not the original trope itself. D&D evles are example of that and 2.
plus
>no standard races, completely original non-human races, but not very well designed

>shit tier
>pointles renaming (basicaly OP's last point)

>kill yourself tier
>using estabilished race names for completely different creations for no reason (OP's point 3.)
>stupid inversions aka tryharding to be funny/original but failing even harder than trying (le in my setting elves are industrialized and dwarves are close to nature, orcs are good and halflings are bad and so on)

>>50225548
Nah, we're different after all. They're like Ras Thavas in the John Carter of Mars series. Some of them are all tribal like the Green Martians. No horns or antlers. Extra-wide ears.

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>>50224997
>Which is the worst, /tg/?
I don't know what's worse: the fact that a good thread died to make place for this shitty thread, or the fact that you expect me to make a choice without even having played those four settings.

A game is very rarely made bad purely by the setting, execution is 90% of the story. All four can be executed well, or they can be executed horribly.

tl;dr: ur a faget and i fugged your mum

>>50225087
>If elves aren't doing anything humans can't do, why have elves at all?
if done right, they add mysticism, faggot

>>50225386

That's kind of a poor metaphor because something coming out in a mass-audience accessible venue that requires proprietary material to study beforehand is indisputably pretentious.

Generally, you should be able to establish your setting within the medium without mandatory supplemental material. If you do, you're probably a shitty writer/director. Either parcel it out slower, like a mini-series, cut it way down to fit the short-term medium of film, or just write a book, but a creator should be able to work to the medium's strengths rather than trying to hamfist a large square peg into a small triangular hole.

This is fine for niches and cliques, though. An audience that's already selectively read up and studied need not have supplementary material, or is just fine and dandy with reading up on supplementary material because it's the kind of thing they're used to or committed to because they're just as invested in this small group as the creators for it are invested in them.

But go ahead and spam your art film across major film venues for mass-audience appeal while simultaneously expecting them to do the required reading beforehand. That's not being more intelligent than your audience, that's being a bloody idiot sticking a pipe in the spokes of his bike and blaming roadway.

>>50225678
/thread

>>50225577
me too

>>50225678
exactly this.
There shouldn't be any more need for any other discussion.
This post should be stickied.
Or at the very least copypastedd any time this sort of question is asked.

>>50224997
2 is the worst

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I have never been a fan of alternate races, but pic related is super awesome and I intend to implement it somehow, someday

>>50225807
if only there was some way of screencapping it or anything

>>50224997
The dont have elves is worst followed by the edge then fungus then traditional.

>>50224997
2 and 3 are just trying to hard
4 is even worse I guess
Just go the TES route if you want interesting elves
Sure, the Bosmer are a bit as you describe, but at the very least the Altmer and Dunmer are original

>>50225807
ugh

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>>50225967

TES Elves are best Elves.

>>50224997
4 is the worse, followed by the edgy one and then the fungi tryhard elves and the hippies. I guess the folklore elves with less edge would be better, but let's be honest that doesn't happen.

>>50224997
it's impossible to determine without context. what does the fantasy setting as a whole aim to provide?

Everyone has experience with bad not!elves, but does anyone have experience with cringey not!dwarves or not!orks

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>>50225087
>If elves aren't doing anything humans can't do, why have elves at all?

What a stupid philosophy.

Which one do I count as?

>Classic races like elves, dwarves, and halflings are all different human societies that are only loosely based on them via stats and culture.

>Other races are more animal-like such lamia, minotaur, dryads.

>>50225942
screencapping is too passive aggressive, copypasta is better

>>50226221
4

>>50224997
What if my elves are pretty standard, but by being one of the first races, managed to master magic to the degree that they basically created their own pocket dimension and basically became the more typical mysterious Fae that other races see as strange and alien?

>>50224997
3

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>>50225678
Good Job anon

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>>50225899
Patrician taste anon

>>50225087
Cultural differences, variety, experimentation with mysticism and magical themes...probably the biggest one I can think of is that honestly it's harder to work a bird person and sea folk into the average adventuring party.

>>50224997
You failed to present a scenario in which elves truly are absent and there are no analogues.

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>>50224997
> Want to write a race that's known for being alloof, magical and somewhat isolated
> Has tons of other traits besides
Call them Elves
> oh wow look at anon calling his OC race "Elves". Why don't you just create your own race name instead of basterdizing old cliches beyond recognition?
Don't call them elves
> Anon, no amount of OC Donut Steel Bullshit will hide that you're ripping off Elves. If you're gonna do that you may as well call them Elves

Same goes for dwarves or any race with vaguely defined "identities"

>>50226713

>You can't please everyone: News at 11

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Thoughts on these guys?

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>>50226798
Really like them. Making them living in the woods because it's he best place to build a lot instead of just being nature hippies adds a lot.

That art is for ants, though.

>>50226798
A good example of elves who are clearly elves, and still original
Using your attunement with nature to become hard core industrialists is pretty ingenious

What about
>My elves are pointy eared folks who used to live in forests but then became jack-booted fascist industrialists

>>50226861
see>>50226798 >>50226835 >>50226847

>>50225382
Tell me about your vampires then.

I kind of like settings with the whole "high" and "low" (wood) elf thing where the high elves see wood elves as savages, and wood elves see high elves as ones who betrayed the old gods and ways of nature.

Tweak as climate needed. No need to make them super snowflake-y.

>>50226905
>Tweak as climate needed. No need to make them super snowflake-y.
badum-tish

>>50226915
Snow elves?

There's nothing automatically wrong or bad with any of those. All can be executed well, all can be executed poorly.

Any other answer is at best misguided ignorance and a lack of creativity, at worst an attempt to anger other people for chuckles.

>>50226875
disase that makes you drink blood and be sexy might be a thing.
host to a Worm of Avarice is a thing, basically a goauld.
and then theres Jing精 sucking undead.
but -all- my undead are incorporeal, often possessing corpses or objects.

>>50225106
>having humans at all
Why bother existing if all you're gonna do is compare yourself to the other races?

>>50224997
They're all the worst. Elves are terrible and you're supposed to hate them.

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>>50226926
Oddly enough, it works

>>50225087
>If homo sapiens aren't doing anything neanderthals can't do, why have homo sapiens at all?

In my personal head canon I like to think of my elves as just another offshoot of mankind. Homo sapiens evolved to be jack of all trades, which is why elves are "better" Elves evolved to specialize in specific branches of the arcane arts. The way cheetahs evolved to be super fast. Is a cheetah "better" than a lion or leopard just because it can reach speeds of over 60 miles per hour, but lions and leopards can't?

Dwarves are basically the same, but rather than specializing in actively using arcane arts, they simply specialized in making themselves immune to anything and everything. Like an arcane equivalent of a turtle, turtles don't use their shells, their shells simply exist. They don't have to think about it at all.

And this is why elves, dwarves, and humans are all genetically compatible. Although there is a 50/50 chance the hybrids will be born deformed. As well as a 50/50 chance the hybrid will be completely sterile.

>>50225137
Aren't elves and dwarves pretty much interchangeable in ancient folklore? Like, this is why Santa Claus has a bunch of short midget sized elves. Because in ancient Nordic mythology Santa Clause used to be Odin and he had "mountain folk" who served him?

And that it's only Tolkien who separated the fey creatures into the modern day concept of super tall androgynous super models and short hairy slobs?

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>>50225137
>and my dwarves are elves
Someone beat you to it already

>>50224997
>Which is the worst, /tg/?

The thread that asks this question.

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>>50226936

>>50227140
No fucking shit though
Say what you want, but TES knows what to do with elves and they decided to do as much as possible with them
The only thing Mer have in common is that they are all stuck up cunts

>>50224997
It depends. I've seen all four executed well, so it really comes down to the DM.

Oh, wait, I forgot, I'm on 4chan.

Around Elfs, watch yourself.
The only good thing elfs are for is raping

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If you're gonna do Tolkien high fantasy, just do it. JUST. DO. IT.
Admit that you're doing it, and live with it. Love it. There's nothing wrong with Tolkien or the derivative works. If you want to put a spin on it, fine. But don't pretend you're doing it to distance yourself from Tolkien or to reinvent the wheel.

Iteration necessitates taking inspiration from earlier things to advance the thing you're working on.

Cars have more than a hundred years of constant iteration. Each piece of technology changes small things, until you arrive at the modern system. The internal combustion engine in the original Benz carriages is a far different thing from the ones we have now.

Likewise this happens with fiction. Someone makes a good idea. The modern fantasy story builds on ancient mythology to create new stories. It's different from the fiction before it.
But now we're arriving at a time where we use previously established fiction, history, culture, politics, to tell new stories.

Someone may claim that you can't do anything original. That every note in music has been combined in every possible sequence. But they're wrong, because each piece of fiction, music, all media, is the result of the context of that creator's experiences.

What I'm saying, basically, is that iteration is a good thing. People pretend to be revolutionary when they're not. The best people know that they're feasting on the efforts of thousands of years, to create something new. And that work will be digested with someone else's creation.

Heck, with the Pathfinder setting and other stuff, we're even beginning to arrive at the second true generation of D&D fantasy settings. Think about that one for a moment. Settings written by people who read Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance when growing up.

>>50224997
>Having identifiable races
Memes aside, why do people try to have races that are close to existing trope istead of trying to male original stuff ?
>ib4 impossible
unless you're trying your hardest to find the smallest link possible with existing racial tropes in order to spout shit like "lol they are mushroom people, obviosuly fucking elves amirite", you should be able to create at least 2 to 3 "original" races
It's not even hard, all you have to do is google wikipedia for strange or even common earth animals/insects/plants/rocks/culture/whatever at 6 am after not sleeping for a day and try to make a race based both on what you read and your own ideas

>>50227167
Not this guy, but
>implying

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>>50225106

>There are snowflakefags who will try to argue with this poster

>'B-B-BUT IT'S JUST AN ELF! HOW DOES THAT EVEN-'

Please. If you can't make an interesting character without having to mention pointy ears or dark vision or +2 horse stat or whatever the fuck, you're shit at making characters. Humans only serves to force you to characterize yourself on something beyond being The Elf/Dwarf/Hobbit/Plutotron of the party.

>>50227375

Not that guy, but
>implying he's wrong

In my setting, the three main races, elves, dwarves and humans are really close to each other on purpose, like horses and donkeys, for example, and the differences are pretty minor.

I basically wanted to have humans with a few different traits to explore how culture would evolve differently if people were a bit different, maybe lived to 500 instead of 60 and didn't sweat as much and got tired quicker, for example.

>>50227387
>implying you can't make an interesting character that just so happens to not be human.

Have you ever read any fictional book, ever?

>>50227387
>If you can't make an interesting character without having to mention X and Y !
when will this meme stop ? The point is that some people want to play different races simply because they can
>playing humans pushes you to make interesting characters !
If you need to play a human to make an intersting charter, then you're shit at making characters

>>50227395
>implying he's implying he's wrong

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>>50224997
>mfw my elves are basically 2
So what should I call them then, /tg/, if it's such a problem?

>>50227466
>implying he isn't

>>50225138
Nah, non-human races are either just "human except X" that exist solely for optimized min-maxing or some wacky off-the-wall shit.
They really add nothing.

>>50227495

Outsiders call them a name based on the name of the region they're from, they call themselves something of spiritual importance based on their religious views. Easy.

>nb4 2 is wood elves from TES

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>>50227457
>If you need to play a human to make an intersting charter, then you're shit at making characters

>If you need to rely on your own culinary skill to turn vanilla ice cream into a treat by using different sprinklings and condiments, then you're shit at making sundaes.

>>50227535
But what do I call them when I'm explaining to my players what this race is? As in "You can also play as a [race]".

>>50225087
>But literal "humans but prettier and live longer" can fuck right off.
My elves are literally just a race of humans from a culture with advanced magic. They've acquired some mutations over the years, and their magically extended lifespans don't halt the consistent growth of cartilage in the nose and ears, but it's really not impossible for an ordinary human to be effectively made into an elf if they somehow managed to acquire citizenship. Half-elves are basically just ordinary humans or elves depending on which culture they were raised in, even if they would still carry a distinctly foreign appearance.

As such, they don't have an inherently alien mindset because of their biology or anything, but their lifespans and way of life give elves a perspective quite foreign to the common man. Elves have reasons for the things they do, it's just that humans don't have enough to go on to really connect all of the dots. Just like some primitive uncontacted tribesmen in the middle of nowhere would be completely fucking lost and confused if they were shoved into a city without being given any context.

>>50225087
>Bird people? Okay.
>Sea folk. Go on ahead.
Why have call them elves if you're not going to have anything that's usually associated with elves?

>>50227600

Whichever is less annoying to pronounce.

>>50227677
Alright, so "elf" then?

>>50227457
>The point is that some people want to play different races simply because they can
Special snowflakes. If you really have a big flashing sign over your head saying "look at me! I'm different!" then I don't think you understand the basic idea of roleplaying:
It's co-operative. No one player is the "star" of the story. You're an ensemble cast.

>>50225161
>When people who grumble about how non-human races are superfluous spout the "no non-humans" meme, they actually only mean "no non-human player races."

Of course that's what they mean.

You don't think people talk about "human only" fantasy campaigns means they also mean no dragons and giants and merfolk and genies, or any other intelligent fantasy creatures etc, do you?

When you have to play an otherwise mundane human in a word full of other creatures with alien worldviews, it can help create a greater sense of mystery and wonder than if you were playing the mysterious race.

It's hard to convince a player that elves are supposed to be mysterious and mercurial creatures beyond human comprehension when his character is an elf and he's expected to have in depth knowledge of the culture, have fleshed out that elf's background from childhood, and know the motivations of their every action.

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>>50227709

>I want you to call my pepper shaker the salt shaker

Whatever floats your boat m8, you're still a stupid fag for doing it.

>>50227165
kek

>>50225967
The Orsimer are the most different elves.

Also I'm wondering, do Orsimer have bigger cocks than other mer?

>>50227745
>elves are supposed to be mysterious and mercurial creatures beyond human comprehension
I've never seen a GM that pull that off.

I hate this trope almost as much as "elves are pointy eared humans that live in forests and use bows"

Something I've been playing with in my head recently is actually having the word "elf" be essentially the linguistic framework within which any non-human race is described in human tongue.

As such:

Elves: Tall, pointy eared tree fuckers
Elfs: Short, pointy eared toymakers
Ulfs: Short, bearded miners
Ulves: Giant, bearded savages

leaving linguistic room for the description of any other races in setting as Olves/Olfs etc.

>>50227569
>missing the point
Here, I'll simplify it for you if you're that dense: the race doesn't matter
>>50227715
listen, there's a difference between palying a race allowed by the GM and a special snowflake
Go take your bait elsewhere

>>50227762
See, that's not fair. You think that my pepper shaker is something else, so I ask what I should call it instead. You say that it can be called a lot of different things by different groups of people. So I ask what I should call it when I describe it as a general thing, and you answer that I should call it the easiest thing. So I say that pepper shaker is the easiest thing. But now you tell me that it is actually supposed to be called a salt shaker.
Return to my first question >>50227495 and try to answer it for real this time.

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>tfw elves make up a small but sizable population in urban areas in my setting
>often end up in places of power because of their longevity, beauty, and intelligence
I mean there are tribal-folk elves which live in societies that are more like communes of hippies out in the woods, but the average city dweller is going to associate Elves with old as fuck professors, doctors, businessmen and politicians rather than the bow wielding, wood dwelling ones.

>>50227709

If that's what people call them in setting, yes.

>>50227715
>some people want to play something other than humans
>special snowflakes
I thought I had seen everything on /tg/
I was wrong
Anyone has that "we're reaching levels of autism that shouldn't be possible" image ? Seriously I hope you're trolling

>>50227802
>the race doesn't matter

If the race doesn't matter, why feel the need to be a unique one in the first place?

Checkmate.

>>50227775
>I've never seen a GM that pull that off.

Because elves are usually just people. its easier to do with monstrous races, rarer races, and races you don't have walking down the street or acting like humans in costume.

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>>50225710
Absolutely this

You can make any setting good in the sense of originality and creativity. Just like you can fuck up a great and original donut steel scenario with bland context and garbage writing.

In summary: op is a fag and very clearly doesn't actually "get" fantasy writing.

Sage, reported, called the cops

>>50227815
>You say that it can be called a lot of different things by different groups of people.

Because it depends on your setting you stupid fag. If you want to make some 2unique4u race, figure out what they'd be called.

>>50227495
Goblins.

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>>50227868
Alright, how about "elf"?

>>50227892
But I already have goblins in my setting, they look like pic related.

>>50227854
That's nothing. We had a thread the other day where people were arguing that anything more than 'Male Human Fighter' was special snowflake. Including having a backstory or characterization.

>>50227905
Well hat more can you say about them other than the fact they're cannibals?

>>50227905
>Alright, how about "elf"?

See >>50227762

I don't know why you think you're clever for doing what you're doing.

50225202 he gets it

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>>50227922
They have long ears and are unnaturally pale and thin. Sometimes they grow horns, sometimes they star looking like hares. They don't sleep and spend the night shivering and cavorting for the moon. They have an affinity for finding hidden passageways and traps. They slowly turn into ghost stories, like boogiemen, bumps-in-the-night, sirens and servants of the wild hunt. They all aspire to ascend before this, to move beyond the veil of reality and part of the heavenly machinery.
The cannibalism thing is optional.

>>50228025
Nice quoting, newfag.

>>50227855
Alright, I'll bite

>If the race doesn't matter, why feel the need to be a unique one in the first place?
Why not ?
Checkmate
>Bwaaaaah, that's retarded !
Yes. Your post was too

>>50228038
Sound like huldra.

>>50227569
Here's where your vanilla ice cream analogy falls flat.

>Some people just like the vanilla ice cream with no embellishments
>Some people don't like vanilla ice cream period
>Some people have been eating vanilla ice cream for so long that they're just a tad sick of it
>Some people eat vanilla ice cream and think "vanilla ice cream is the only flavor that should be allowed, because it is the only kind that I like, and when someone claims to like strawberry ice cream I will bitch endlessly about why they have to be such a fucking rebel instead of just dumping strawberry syrup on their vanilla ice cream"

>>50228038
Fae.

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>>50227913
Is that a recent trend or only memes ? Either way it's pretty funny

>>50228048
>Why not ?

Because it is your preference that demands a change from the norm; humans are the default, therefore difference from the default ought to be justified.

>"B-but I wanna!"
Why?

>"I-I dunno I just wanna and it's DEFINITELY not because of what you're saying because that'd make me look bad!!"

Lol ok

>>50227929
I don't think I'm very clever, I'm just having fun making a setting. I asked what I should call them instead of elves, and you're just repeating "call them something other than elves". That doesn't answer the question.
>>50227762 is saying "Don't call them pepper shakers, call them salt shakers". Now fill in this the blank for this: "Don't call them elves, call them [blank]".

>>50228051
>>50228058
Now these were helpful answers. I'll look into these.

>>50228055

And yet, we were talking about how an interesting character is made, and the argument that being capable of making an interesting character when you can't rely on a snowflake race being evidence of your superior character design capabilities remains true.

Remain angry, friend.

>>50228084
>I asked what I should call them instead of elves, and you're just repeating "call them something other than elves". That doesn't answer the question.

The answer was actually "Call them something sensible given the world you designed them in." You keep ignoring this.

so how autistic can /tg/ get?

>>50224997
2, 3, and 4. It's an obnoxious attitude to have at a tabletop to limit a player's character creation choices from what they expect just because you have some form of autism

Do elves have these threads about humans in their settings?

>>50228118
I accepted that answer, and my solution was to keep calling them elves, as I imagined that that is what elves are in my setting, and what people would call them. You didn't accept this however, writing that I called them the wrong thing anyway.

>>50228086
And I'm talking about how your analogy is cripplingly retarded by virtue of amounting to no more than "there is one way to do things, and all other ways are wrong, and the fun you THINK you're having is wrong, and you are a pleb for having it".

You are the one that is out of place, because even fucking Tolkien, the father of "Fantasy" as most know it, did not center his story solely on the exploits of humans. Your vanilla ice cream analogy is shit because there's nothing saying people can't put some effort into spicing up chocolate ice cream to create a whole new kind of dish entirely.

But no, this isn't even a valid option because everything besides vanilla ice cream is bad.

>>50225291
>Tolkien is not the sole influence
And no one said he was Captain Obvious, but he is the most influential next to D&D itself.

>>50228148
>I accepted that answer, and my solution was to keep calling them elves, as I imagined that that is what elves are in my setting, and what people would call them.

Look, we both know why you're calling them elves, and it's not because we're talking about a group of people from Elfaeron or whatever. And were we, we would then be talking about why you designed a place called Elfaeron so you wouldn't have to be bothered with thinking of a 2unique4u name for your 2unique4u race.

Again, I don't know why you think you're clever for doing this. You're just making Original Elves Do Not Steal. It's tiresome.

>>50228161
>"there is one way to do things, and all other ways are wrong, and the fun you THINK you're having is wrong, and you are a pleb for having it".

No, you're just an objectively inferior roleplayer to consider "is an elf" to be a character trait.

Because that's really all we're talking about here; making interesting characters. Some can do just fine by giving their characters meaningful passions, ideals, hopes, and dreams. Some people look to see what racial bonuses they get.

It's okay though, keep mentally comparing yourself to Tolkien. You both had Elves as characters; that definitely means you're as good as him. :)

>>50228199
Yes, I believe I am making original elves, or at least I think so but someone could have done the exact same thing before me. I never denied this, I just asked what I should call them instead of elves if it was such a problem.

>>50228240
>I never denied this, I just asked what I should call them instead of elves if it was such a problem.

You were answered.

You may continue being a pleb as you so wish.

>>50224997
The last three are all misguided attempts to "fix" cliches in the fantasy genre without having the experience to break away from them. They're all based on 'fixing' elves as if elves either something that needs fixing in the first place, or that they are the standard from which your own variation should start or diverge. They don't look at other genres. They don't look at nonstandard stories within the same genre. They just look at the thing in front of them with no regard to its origin or base elements.

These people don't sit down and say "how can I make an interesting fantasy setting", they sit down and say "how can I write elves without writing elves." All they do is iterate whether they're trying to or not. In an effort to avoid cliches, they trip head-first into the same cliche or another one, all while thinking they're being clever.

It's a stage almost every fantasy fan goes through at some point, to varying degrees.

>>50227387
Yeah, and no wizards either. And definitely no paladins. I won't have any snowflakes at my table who think they're so special that a god would choose them for anything. We can't have anyone being special in this setting about magical fantasy adventue.

>>50228247
It was a shitty and unhelpful answer. I'll just keep calling them elves.

>>50228067
that answer was litterally taken from personnal opinions and/or setting anon, please put more effort into it if you want a discussing or even some shitposts
>humans are the default
I don't have humans in my setting. And no, I don't have elves/dwarves or classic fantasy tropes.
I don't have a default race either.
Now your next post are going to be "lel no humans your setting is for shitty snowflakes & or shit roleplaying

>>50228231
>No, you're just an objectively inferior roleplayer to consider "is an elf" to be a character trait.
Everything about the character is a character trait. I can keep on with your ice cream analogy though. Why the fuck does it have to say vanilla ice cream on the container? Does the flavor matter? If vanilla is the only flavor that matters, the default flavor if you will, why doesn't the tub just say "ice cream"?

Perhaps, and this is just me going out on a limb, the various races represent ideas and assumptions. In an all-human campaign, would a character's country of origin be irrelevant? Because that is very much what you're implying by proxy, you tremendous cock-huffing braindead excuse for a human being.

>>50228277

>Considering what ethnic groups would refer to eachother as is shitty, world building is for nerds

As I said, feel free to continue being a pleb. You're just another dime-a-dozen GM trying at a facsimile of originality.

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>mfw my setting has no humans at all

>>50228301
The race isn't an ethnic group. They're a bunch of semi-boogiemen who live mostly in the forest and scare lone wanderers. I even wrote that in an earlier post.

>>50228231
How is that not a character trait?

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>>50228067
>>"B-but I wanna!"
>Why?
Because it's basic roleplaying ?

>>50224997
2>1>>>>>>>>>>>>3>4
I would put 4 tied with 1 if they didn't pretend that their special race wasn't just renamed elves. Renaming races to make a setting seem more different isn't bad, or at least not that bad, but call your shit what it is, don't pretend your Al-kai are unique when they are identical to or pretty much the same as elves.

>>50224997
My elves are basically more magical Celts that look like Tolkien elves physically.

>>50228119
If you judge only by this thread, I'd say pretty autistic

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>>50225678

>>50228280
lel no humans your setting is for shitty snowflakes & or shit roleplaying

>>50224997
Number 4. It can have all the issues of the other 3, with the added bonus of confusing the players.

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>>50228316
good taste anon

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>elves and humans are the same species
>except with huge sexual dimorphism
>elves are female
>humans are male
>elves are tall, slender, long lived, and more intelligent as in usual fantasy
>humans are generally more muscular, more fit for martial combat, and a bit more primal
Not a setting I'd actually run, but I'd read that doujin.

>>50228632
Isn't it easier to say that, in this fantasy world, human females are tall, slender, long lived, and more intelligent plus have long ears, and human males are muscular, more fit for martial combat, and a bit more primal?

>>50228673
Maybe. Or theoretically elf females are tall, slender, long lived, and more intelligent plus have long ears, and elf males are muscular, more fit for martial combat, and a bit more primal.

Either way, females end up being immune to magical sleep and have resistance to enchantment spells and effects while males get an extra feat at level 1, so hey.

>>50228673
this is like that lesbian steampunk bondage alternate dimension where instead of men and women the genders are "blondes" and "brunettes"

My elves are the decedents of a few members of a race of incredibly powerful immortal extradimensional aliens. Though they retained their nature and abilities upon the move, the influence of the gods of this new world made their children mortal and more "physical". Eons later and the elves are very much like men, but (on average) more magically attuned, more physically frail, and have a median lifespan of approximately 140 years. A few of the original elves, colloquially known as the "True Fey", still exist, and they are assholes who hate the gods for "ruining" their legacy (despite the fact that those same gods are the only reason they even still exist)

How edgy is this?

I actually dislike fantasy races unless they are based more along ethnic lines rather than species like the Elder Scrolls or Howard's Hyborean Age setting. I liked that the different ethnic groups had different bonuses curtailed to their cultures and such.

I cannot stand Mass Effect, Star Trek or Dragon Age style races that are super special snowflakes that are just spins on real world cultures or take one aspect of a real world culture (like honour) and make an entire species obsessed with it

It's why, while the Elder Scrolls does have fantasy elves and other typical races, it always feels fresh because the characters are individuals first and foremost and members of their culture second just like real life. No two people are exactly the same but there are similarities

>>50227095
>Aren't elves and dwarves pretty much interchangeable
Nope.

>>50228893
I don't mind fantasy races, but I really hate when races have a set culture for them, or are based on a single real world culture.

If there's an elf nation close a human nation, it stand to reason those elves would be culturally closer to those humans than to some other elves on the other side of the world.

>>50228951
I think that's the most annoying thing, when humans can be found in different kingdoms and villages everywhere, but every Dwarf is from Dwarfhome, land of the dwarf clans, and every Elf is from the ancestral Elven forest.

At most, you usually get some minor differences, like dwarves having surface/underground dwarves disliking eachother, but they're usually still allied and culturally similar.

>>50224997
3 and 4.

3 makes fuck-all sense.

4 is elves by any other name to avoid Tolkien cliches. Just call it what it is.

1 can be cool as fuck if played straight, but it takes the right person, and not a fucking elf fanboy, to do it.

2 can be cool as fuck. There is no ten times edgier than the folklore roots. But there are edgelords who make everything fucking suck.

>>50224997
Again, I must ask, why did you not present a scenario in which there simply are no elves end of story?

>>50229268
It's not the point of the question.

>>50229279
What is the point of the question?

>>50229289

To shitpost.

>>50228770
So half elves are some queer third gender faggotry? I could actually kind of get behind this. Not for elves and humans, but for some sort of highly specialized species.

>Males are much larger, stronger, and tougher than females and tend to act as warriors and labourers
>Females tend to be more lithe and long lived and tend to act as mages or scouts
>Sterile "third gender" that are sometimes born have an unnatural charisma and an inherent knack for negotiation and persuasion and tend to be used as diplomats and negotiators

Species might be something like 80% male, 15% female, 5% third gender, with females living long and thus having 30 plus children over the course of their lives to make up for their rarity.

>>50229364
I mean, man, I was thinking they'd just be futa, but some freaky third gender bullshit would be interesting thematically too.

>>50224997
My elves are genetically enhanced super soldiers of the star gods, sent to the planet initially to prepare for their coming arrival before they rebelled against their masters intentions.

Basically Nazi Eldar.

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>>50225087
I think this is exactly why some people go with the mythological fae type.

Instead of just pointy eared people with a tree fetish, they go with weird mystic pseudo evil insane abomination that is somewhat ghost like and works with a totally different set of physics. But they do sort of come off as a nature themed vampire.

>>50224997
My elves are slender wispy fair folk that exclusively walk around on stilts and spook people.

>>50229524
Honestly I find the third gender idea more appealing, it makes them less human as a race, avoids specialization, and serves a thematic purpose. They are an androgynous third gender so they can act as better diplomats, acting masculine or feminine to better suit their needs.

Acting as diplomat for the Amazons? Take on a female persona and behave in a feminine manner. Meeting with an Orc tribe in order to negotiate terms of not raiding our lands treaty? Take on a masculine persona, stand tall and behave aggressively to gain some respect and common ground. Put simply instead of just being girlboys they just use gender as a tool to get what they need. They can walk, talk, and act like a girl one moment, and then turn around and behave like a man the next moment. To them changing all of their mannerisms around is as natural as a human parting their hair to the left instead of the right.

>>50228147
Yes, and I bet the only humans they are familiar with are redheads with golden eyes over six feet tall who are super awesome at building ships and waging war. Even better than the elves. Because those humans are the only humans who showed up in the elf author Tolkiens novels.

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>>50230218
That's actually pretty fascinating. You took my dumb magical realm ideas and turned it into something actually interesting.

Excellent job.

>>50224997

I go with all of the above, only in my setting most nonhuman cultures lost the wars against humanity and have pretty much just been pushed into a melting pot situation where only a few traits of a given 'elven' culture are left in any particular individual.

>>50225127
Why should I want that, disgusting tumblrina?

>>50225138
I think that for real. Either Human only Or no Humans for me.

>>50230402
not him but how about because it's interesting

do you also not allow religous conflict in your games? do you play in a utopia?

>>50230402
Man, the witcher did that and CDred literally laughs at sjws.

What about Elves that are French, live in super dense cities to try to minimize their impact on their religious idols (trees), have a knack for sailing, innovate technologically, commonly fall to piracy, and grow sick goatees like captain Jack sparr-

Okay, no bullshit, I just wanted to play a setting with a realistic possibilty of Orcish Ninja fighting Elvish pirates on an ironclad. Because fuck you that's awesome! (And takes shockingly little bullshit to pull off, if the elves are from an island and the orcs have a japanese theme to them)

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>>50230402

Because it makes for a more interesting setting if you don't "Disneyfy" it.

>>50230812
Wakfu?

>>50224997
The last one. I hate stupid ORIGINAL IDEA DONUT STEEL names. You're making elves, just call them elves.

>>50225106
>having anything at all

>>50227745
>or any other intelligent fantasy creatures etc, do you?
I do that. It isn't the only flavor of fantasy I run, but if I am doing a human only setting monstrous creatures and the like will usually end up more cunning than properly intelligent.

The reason I don't let players play non-humans in these games is because lassie with spikes doesn't exactly leave much role-playing options and I find that at least my regulars grow tired of characters incapable of easy communication very quickly. On the other side of the scale I will generally run my fae or spiritual folks as being almost robotic in nature. Spirits generally follow a strict set of rules governing what they do, generally linked to why they exist. Fairies do the same with less programming and more a strict adherence to fate. Something proper pcs are outside of (this is also generally why pc-fae interactions tend to end poorly).

So basically you have instinct and gumption, spooky virtual intellects, and those whose lot in life is entirely predestined. Either way your only options remove player agency, and that is a no no for me.

B-b-but limiting player races also removes their agency.
They made that choice when they agreed to the terms of the game

Elves should be superior to men in every way except they're all autistic.

>>50230402
You wouldn't.

>>50233127
>implying elves aren't already all autists

>>50227044
except elves are neandertall since they were created before human aka homosapiens.
therefore no need of elves because EVOLUTION

>>My elves a sentient hivemind of fungi and shrubs in the shape of a person who command merchant fleets, because I need to turn everything about elves on their head to make my truly unique replacement elves stand out!

This is objectively the best one. Also, I'm stealing this idea because fuck you that's awesome.

The fungi one, because they prevent the use of myconids by having a large overlap. Myconids are some tight shit, and we don't need elves taking away from them.

>>50225325
I mean the whole pitch of Dark Sun is that everyone's a bit different, so I think its a bit unfair.

>>50224997
>Having standard fantasy races
>Not having various arthropodic races to play as

>>50225230
>I don't like nonhuman PC races because they devalue both humans and nonhumans, rendering down the elves into funny humans and making humanity just one of 6 choices.
If I'm playing fantasy make believe with a group why the fuck should I be limited to generic humans only?

Like that's not even a mythology thing. Most mythological heroes had divine blood on some side. Why is me wanting to play a barbarian with giant blood asking too damn much?

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>>50224997
My elves are sophisticated isolationist ecofascists. It's doubtless been done before, but I like it.

>>50224997
Depends on the setting.

Type 1 is fine for D&D style shenanigans where there are no longer any restrictions on class or abilities due to race.

Type 2 is right out for any kind of Player Character, but makes a nice foil for an all human party to have to deal with.

Type 3 is a good way to enforce racial differences for classes and abilities, and experiment with unique types of roleplaying. Like, say, because they are plants they can't talk so the player has to sign things or write them down in real time for communicating.

Type 4 is just type 1, so we're going to say that it's objectively worse because OP is creatively bankrupt and it's just as limited as type one.

>>50233890
My Nigger, you need to take the next step.

Elves: Mainly Tropical and Semi-tropical dwellers, mostly living on coasts and along rivers. They're dicks, better than you at everything, and they won't let you forget about it. They live longer, and have a higher rate of Magic users among them than any other race except dwarves, about 10-15% as opposed to <5%, although these tend to be mostly sorcerers and ritualists, and Warrior magic users are seen as rather lazy. Currently in a sort of luke-warm war with the God of the World as they feel he's held their race in stasis for too long and they want to gain an edge as they see humanity spreading like a goddamn disease. They get along well enough these days with dwarves, seeing them as their counterparts in the burning lands where they never really wanted to go anyways. Had some difficulties with them in the past when they were the only other game in town, but they're a damn sight better than humans. Essentially, normal Elves that are mostly sailors and aggressive traders who are bitter about Humans and have abandoned their previous nature worship in an attempt to modernize and now heavily use technology as well as magic. The tend mostly towards aggressive Atheism or worshipping the God of Fantastic Racism, in his aspect of Obern the Perfect(ionist).

My Dark Elves aren't a natural race.

Artificially created by the ancient Elven Empire (via arcane experimentations on selected Elf women) as a far more elite warrior sub-race to fight against stuff the main army had great difficulties with.

The DElves got shit done and secured superiority for the Elven Empire...only for it to go full dick mode after a couple of centuries because the DElves literally crushed suppressed any threat that could hit their creators.

The DElves had magical collars attached to them that didn't allow them to retaliate when the Elves took their mates and their kids as playthings. Years of anger and frustration turned into downright hatred, and it was only thanks to a Sorcerer Thrall who managed to secretly undo the collars that the DElves were free...and repaid the Elves everything (so much that they caused the Empire's fall).

They quickly took all the vital magitek, mecha, and tools and waltzed north where they build a kingdom of their own.

Militaristic, magitek engineers and hard working folks that are also very pragmatic. Neutral overall, wear pelts of scary beasts and are bros with the nordic Dwarfs to the point of being drinking buddies.

>>50225751
What else you going to do before the movie starts? Masturbate?

>>50225087
...did you miss that one of the options was a fucking mushroom?

>>50227769
only the women

>>50225127
>To play with real-world racial themes while maintaining a degree of separation to avoid your players getting uncomfortable.

If you're actively including modern day racial stereotypes and just masking it with Fantasy races you're a Niggerfaggot and a shit writer.

If you're including racial and cultural distrust and fear as it would exist in those equivalent time periods, then your players are pussies who need to get over themselves. If a Chinamen can be not Butthurt about Genghis Khan wrecking the shit out of China centuries ago, your players shouldn't feel embarrassed when finding out that people distrusted each other in a time where transportation and communications were shit, and where the entertainment Industry didn't exist yet and therefore, there was much less interest in other countries.

>>50227095
Dwarves were related to dark/black elves in Scandinavian mythology, and what little scraps we have left suggest they may have been the same, or they may have been different but related.

>>50233127
>They're superior to us than every way, except they're actually inferior in every way!
Kek.

>>50224997
>Nu-elves
ok I guess but really boring. could easily be just a human culture
>scary fair folk
my favourite type of elf as long as you don't overdo it with the edge. add a nice element of mystery to the world. just don't let them be PCs
>weird shit
should be mixed in with the other types just to give them an extra layer. don't overdo it though
>not-elves
awful beyond words, unless it makes perfect sense in the game's world (which it rarely does)

>>50233771
This should both apply to all fantasy ever and not just be human with some modifiers tacked on later, how and why now?
Or is your only experience with the hobby d&d, a rigid class based game made for a specific style of play?

>>50224997
That third one is cool as fuck though. As long as they aren't literally called elves, and just fill the same general "ecological" role in the story I see nothing wrong with them.

>>50225678
Your formatting is as bad as your points are good, and your formatting looks like ass. Good job Anon.

I think a small and simple blurb works far better to fire the imagination than an expanded racial history and genealogy

For example in my one space fantasy campaign:.

Elves are one of the many Servant races, once tenders and protectors of the god's orchards. They tasted the Fruit of Immortality once, and it lengthened their lives immeasurably, but for this transgression they were cast out and scattered among the spheres.

Can I have Keebler and Christmas elves in an endless war for control over festivity in my setting? I want to make a holiday themed chapter for the season.

>>50236167
>in a time where
SURPRISE, D&D DOES NOT TAKE PLACE IN A HISTORICAL TIME PERIOD

SUPRISE, D&D DID NOT TAKE PLACE IN THE REAL WORLD

>>50233501
Personally, I'm 100% ready to rape elves out of their existence as a separate subspecies.

>>50225087
I bet you like gnomes, halflings, or dwarves, you twink.

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>>50240169
>Look at me, I made world completely deviant from the course of History. All these events where People and Places don't conform to regular patterns demonstrated in history are just because the world I Made is soooool unique, Indon't need to explain how it works
>Oh, by the way, in this world Orcs are niggers and Elves are Irish during the American industrial revolution

Holy shit boys, I think we've found the mythical Double-Niggerfaggot! I thought it was but mere legend!

>>50230402
>muh buzzwords

consider gas

>>50236167
>Setting with slavery
>Literally just antebellum period US slavery from a modern perspective
>Despite nearly every single major culture keeping slaves of one form or another throughout history

I'm so fucking tired of this "let's examine modern racial issues through thinly veiled fantasy" bullshit

>>50224997
We didn't have elves we had faeries. Who were just really posh people who didn't have quite as many morals or indeed empathy as you or I.
They were awfully keen on smoked kippers and murder though.
Good times.

>>50234723
Funny thing. Those are pretty much my Orcs, and Dwarves aren't really a separate race either.

>>50227644
>and their magically extended lifespans don't halt the consistent growth of cartilage in the nose and ears
Does that mean your elves have ridiculously long noses?

>>50229364
I thought the point was that there were no half-elves. I mean, if humans and elves are supposed to be technically the race.

Having fantasy without "fantasy races" is like having sci-fi without aliens.

>Last time I made a campaign the only real 'elf' race was wood elves
>high elves were half-breeds that traveled around and partied hard

The entire party decided high elves were best elf for that setting, and quickly said 'fuck off' to the wood elves.

>>50243459
You mean, not often thought of but do-able and just as good in many cases.

>>50243412
The older ones do, yes. That and their ears are probably the most reliable visible indicators for judging their age, and elves are quite proud of them. They're seen as signs of maturity and wisdom in their culture.

>>50243524
Sure. It depends on the questions you want explored.

The cliches are WHY I like fantasy.

>>50243542
>Inb4 they're Jews and control the human world from the inside out.

>>50241758
What if the setting is based off 1800s US?

>>50243625
Then it's okay I guess.

>>50243459
Sooo you are saying that it's good, arguably more often than the stuff with those things?

>>50224997

I'm assuming all of these are poorly executed, even though 1 and 2 can be done well, because the way they're phrased suggests someone who hasn't put in any thought (for 1) or who's too enamored of their originality and edginess to worry about quality (for 2). Even so, 4 is the worst. 3 is dumb because it invents a new race and then calls them elves for no reason, but 4 is way more irritating because you have to remember a new name for a completely unoriginal concept, and most of the effort for that section of the setting appears to have gone into coming up with its name. Remembering one new name isn't so hard, but if this guy has been going around renaming a million other fantasy staples, it'll add up fast. 1 is a tired cliche, but it's also the devil we know and nothing this half-hearted will be taking up a whole lot of screentime anyway, and 2 is a little cringey and all the worse because the GM might think he's being super clever and thus focus more on his fairly bland murder elves, but at least they're still recognizable as elves and easy to keep track of. It might be a somewhat tired idea executed by someone who isn't really aware of what actually makes it work, but at least you can shut your brain off and have fun with it on auto-pilot.

An idea that is both poorly executed *and* requires focus to keep track of is worse than something that just regularly sucks.

>>50243579
I suppose their long lifespans would make it easier to manipulate societies in the longterm, and some would definitely be interested in doing so, but they aren't really "inside" human societies at all. Why would they want to live among savages? Sure, some elven anthropologist might be interested in doing so for a century or two to study human cultures up close, a few might even "go native", but it's not something most elves really have any interest in. They can just visit a zoo or circus if they want to see humans. Or a farm.

>>50233771
Playing a barbarian with giant blood is vastly preferable to playing an elf or dwarf or (X) because on a fundamental level, he'e still human, and has the psyche of the human, and people see him and see a man, a man who has giant/god/whatever blood. It's fine if you want to be a strange sort of human, really, but the typical fantasy milieu of "races" who have specific cultural traits is boring, reductive, and also sort of stupid.

>>50243662
Sure.

Or that there's no point. The parallel works for both, I think.

>>50225899
These elves must have bad acne.

>>50224997
My Elves are a closed society of racist, expansionist extremists who believe in the total obliteration of all non elven life. THey live in sterile cities empty of living things that aren't elves and eat magic.

Mortal races and their mages drain this magic and thus the elves are having a pretty rough time feeding their empire.

How'd I do /tg?

>>50233501
Evolution doesn't make things better. It makes them different.

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>>50228161
But see the thing is, Tolkien may have not centered his stories around the exploits of humans, but he did something else. His stories were memorable, richly detailed, wonderfully vibrant. His characters were deep and varied, some vain, some selfless, heroes and cowards. A single important name elf for Tolkien had more character then most parties in this hobby combined. And all these rp elves? these important in their own setting name characters? Bad. Most players don't go beyond the basic mold he left because frankly they suck ass and think being and elf in and of itself is enough to make something memorable or even good as a character (which Tolkien didn't).

Vanilla ice-cream might be meh, but I'd rather make shitslinging mongrels learn to manage scooping it into the bowl before they go flinging rocky road on the fucking floor screaming "Look I made ice cream!"

>>50233501
Where in my post did I say elves came after homo sapiens? You do realize that there were several species of man running around at the same time, right?

Homo sapiens are a genetic melting pot of multiple separate ancestor species that all interbred with each other.

>>50227044
>>If homo sapiens aren't doing anything neanderthals can't do, why have homo sapiens at all?
You mean the inverse, right? Which is of course, why neanderthals don't exist anymore. Though you seem to have escaped the culling of idiot hominids.

>>50245047
No, you dumb fuck, because all the elf haters in this thread believe the concept of elves should become as extinct as the neanderthal. "Becuz muh precious humans in high fantasy! WAH! STOP LIKING THINGS I DON'T LIKE!"

Learn to read the fucking post that the post you quoted was a response to.

It's funny how you call me an idiot, when you are the one too stupid to understand the concept of context.

>>50245116
>No, you dumb fuck, because all the elf haters in this thread believe the concept of elves should become as extinct as the neanderthal. "Becuz muh precious humans in high fantasy! WAH! STOP LIKING THINGS I DON'T LIKE!"

It must be interesting going through life wholly oblivious to what people actually say and merely conjuring your own warped versions of their thoughts and speech.

>>50225161
Eh, I've used typically multi-race games like DnD (albeit very houseruled) for human-PC-only games and they've been fun, but it depends upon the "feel" you're going for.

A party of Vikings exploring unknown shores where the intelligent nonhumans are all significantly more powerful either magically (elves) or physically (jotnar) than them gave the setting a feeling of hardscrabble survivalism. Mortal hopelessness before the dangerous unknown world at its darkest, and wonder at unknown worlds beyond true North at its brightest, which made all the hardship and isolation worth it.

>>50224997
All of them are pretty bad, but I suppose the first one is the least bad even though it misses all tghe cool points about Tolkien's elves and instead goes for the much, much, much worse D&D stereotype.

>>50224997
2 is fine if done well.
See Ravenloft and Van Richten's guide to Shadow Fey for well written Seelie/Unseelie Courts.

>>50225138
I tend to prefer nearly-human-only campaigns because otherwise my players choose a party of special snowflake races that make for a shitty story. Nonhuman races can be great, but they sometimes act as a crutch for otherwise boring characters.

>>50226044
The thing about TES elves is that, while the races are still pretty archetypal, the lore is actually interesting. Dunmer aren't just dark elves because 'muh evil spider-elves' - they have a whole history about their exile, warring with the Dwemer, and being cursed by Azura, who is one of their patron Daedric princes, at which point we get into the fact that the daedra aren't just 'muh red-skinned demons' - they have a hierarchy, a unique dynamic between them and the 'holy' spirits (aedra and daedra), each prince has a distinct, diverse set of goals, and so on.

tl;dr: TES elves are good because the writing is good.

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>>50224997
I actually unironically don't add nonhumans to my settings. Humans have racial differences, but in the end they're all human.

No elves or dwarves, but there are forest hunter-gatherers and industrious mining humans. There might be ogres, dragons and other nonsapients, but they will just be treated as the animals they are. They sure as hell won't talk. Talking dragons are the worst meme desu.

>>50225138
Personally I quite like human-only since I run a maptools game and the more outlandish the races the more impossible it is to find good art. Humans only means I have lots of art without ever under-representing a race

>>50224997
Second would be okay if it wasn't maximum edge.

A tribalistic, traditionalist and savage people that practice canibalism on their dead.

And if you fuse that with number one you get TES wood elves which are my favourite elves.

>>50246293
this. cliche is fine as long as you make an effort with the cliches. the coolest ideas in the world are kneecapped by lack of effort.

>>50225473
Get back to making touhou 16 Zun.

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>>50246344
>hating on talking dragons

>>50225087
Only Elves can do magic
Wow, that was hard.

>>50243388
Really?

My Orcs are actually mutated human barbarians that turned like that due to the primordial spiritual powers of the steppes their shamans tap into all the time.

They were at first like mongols, but then they started to establish more permanent dwellings.

Dwarfs on the other hand were once golems that turned fleshy and short.

Extreme magitek and have awesome runic versions of said magitek.

Scattered all over the world due to a cataclysmic arcane storm hitting their empire. If it wasn't for one of the mecha gods, then they would've gone extinct.

Also made magitek internet.

>>50225386
You're right, Southland Tales was a masterpiece

>>50224997
Dwarf Fortress seems to blur the lines in a good way.

You have Tolkein like Elves of the forest with tree related taboos that have no qualms eating sentient beings

>>50249632
Well yeah, but /tg/ video games are always miles above mindless fiction faggots.

>>50241296
>hurrr I desperately cling to my runaway addiction of constant pidgeonholing of ethinicities and nationalities even in arguments where it stopped making sense about four sentences back
Oh for fucks sake mate. These are literally worlds where there was no such thing as stone age, iron age, or bronze age, because the gods had no interest in that shite and just magicked people's head full of architecture, or whichever specific example Waterdeep needed. You've got Eberron where there's The Distant Ancient Past, The Century Before the War, The War, and Now.

This ain't real life, this ain't "in those times" and it ain't some load of "well in the real world I hurfed and I durfed and I shat myself until the women left the store"

>>50247953

I feel you

Orcs: Congratulations, this was your choice. Orcs are Pseudo-Tribal, semi-nomadic warriors where the women build small farms to tend to crops while the males move the vast herds along the steppes and plains. Warfare between the males is common as well as honour duels and duels to establish internal hierarchy, whereas the females have a robust culture of advancement through assassination both political and poisonous. These conflicts for both genders are only occasionally to the death.

Both sides think they have the best of the deal. Orc culture is heavily segregated along gender lines as the males travel between different female enclaves and engage in short-term relationships while the herd is there, each tribe of male herdsmen travelling in elaborate paths to discourage overgrazing while still allowing them to have reasonably fun battles so that there are opportunities to gain honour and status. The individual female towns have a council that gets involved when the tribal conflicts get out of hand, and with matters of external trade. They go to war as a single entity when such a thing happens, and given their martial lifestyle and the relative economic stability of their system it is a terrifying thing when this happens. The overly-complex nature makes it difficult for them to expand, however, resulting in most nations being willing to leave them alone and be left alone in turn. The males will frequently hire out as mercenaries in their youth for fun and profit to buy into the tribal herd when they return, as inheriting alone is seen to be rather shameful.

>>50249821

Traits considered attractive are all over the damn place, some women like men who are rough and tough, others prefer those who play instruments or speak well. A combination of both is needed in the male tribes in order to rise in rank, both so that the tribe itself succeeds and so that someone who thinks they can do a better job doesn't take yours away from you. Same for the women, everyone has their fetishes but fertile and fit is always a good match. Since they both have their own measures of wealth, social standing actually plays a surprisingly little amount in who partners with whom. Orcs tend not to be concerned with those who deviate from the social norm, so long as they are strong or cunning enough to fulfill their obligations and hold the place in society they desire. In general, however, the sexual dimorphism of Orcs is fairly pronounced, with the males standing 10-20% taller than the females and having significant amount of muscular hypertrophy in comparison, so it's fairly rare for them to stray outside their gender roles.

Due to the presence of the Houngan, they have the least worshippers of the Gods. They recognize them, and occasionally an Orc will Champion one of them, but they prefer a form of Ancestor Worship.

TL;DR Male are old-school Kzinti, Female are Drow with the obsession with Chaos and individuality replaced by Law and Social Stability.

>>50247953
Also, why are Cataclysms for dwarves so tempting?

Dwarves: They're also dicks. The live in the Burning Lands, which is the area that was ravaged by the Elves when they still worshipped the God of the World as the Dwarves were advancing magically too fast, and beginning to fuse it with nascent technological advances resulting in the God of the World getting pissed and withdrawing his blessing. The told him to fuck off and forged ahead (haha) in creating fantastic cities that run heavily on technology and Magic. They also have a high rate of Magic users due to strict breeding, testing and training among the population. This is out of necessity, as without the many dwarven ritualists working for the government, their cities would collapse. They're dirty commies, probably fascists too. Mainly ritualists and psions enforcing conformity, they've lost the innovative edge that they once had and are slowly becoming more hostile to humans as they see them as potential competitors. Others see them as an opportunity, but the presence of the Worlds Embrace as a dominant religion makes them unwilling to extend the hand of peace too far lest it get chopped off. They hate the Elves, as they don't see the destruction of their homelands as "some difficulties in the past" and gloat more than they should about the Humans starting to push them out.

>>50249821
>>50249834
>>50249910

I had four major races that created their own empires and having loads of sub-races coming from them.

Draconians, Dwarfs and Elves were the first Empires while Humans came shortly after.

While the first three have already made their Empires, the Humans were just starting.

Draconians and Dwarfs were hit due to said arcane storm (that was caused by some asshole mecha god and his devilish lackeys). While the Dwarfs managed to survive (yet be scattered) thanks to their mecha god, the Draconians had a legion of Fiends to fight that caused them to quickly uplift the Lizardmen due to the humanoid dragons becoming nearly extinct from the fighting.

The Elves managed to have their last the longest, but due to them being dicks to the DElves...well you know how that ended.

Humans were also scattered along with the Dwarfs thanks to the arcane storm, but they were incomplete and lacked half the stuff the mecha gods intended them to have. This resulted in humans mutating in various places over time where certain magical energies were abundant. Hence why a large majority of various races (Orcs, but also Halflings, and more) come from humans mostly.

>>50247953
It's not exactly the same, but my Orcs aren't the hulking green brutes that they're typically portrayed as. They're more the type that were once the same race as Elves, or rather they were their slaves used for harsh manual labor, military, or any other undesirable tasks. One of the most severe punishments for an Elf was to be sent to the Orc pits to be worked to death as one of them. The Orc eventually started adapting to their conditions, and that along with how the High Elves would "mark" them so they would never be mistaken for an Elf, resulted in them developing into their own race.

Eventually, the Orcs just went full Morlock on their overlords, taking control over vast swathes of formerly Elven territory by using the Elves' own weapons and defenses against them. This is the source of the racial hatred between the two. Orcs despise their former masters, and Elves hate those responsible for their fall from power. Wood Elves are basically post-apocalyptic survivors of the mutant uprising, who were knocked back to the stone-age. The remaining High-Elves are holdouts from regions which relied less upon slave labor.

And like Morlocks, the Orcish victors didn't really know any other way of life from what they did under the Elves. They still do hard labor, mining, manufacturing, maintenance, soldiering, and what not. The result is that they're a relatively advanced and industrialized race with fine craftsmen, but have a weak grasp on higher culture.

>>50250656
That's an interesting thing to do.

Especially the part with the Orcs.

I always saw Orcs as something more than just those guys who go there and hit people in the faces with their axes.

My elves are basically mongols/huns so I guess 2?

>>50250704
Do they sport badass mustaches?

>>50224997
I don't have elves. I have superficially similar creatures filling a superficially similar niche but they're not called elves. My players think it's brilliant worldbuilding.

>>50250721
Yes

>>50224997

>My elves are pointy-eared folks who raid the civilized lands for loot, slaves, and fighting. They are the descendants of elven outcasts from the ancient high elven civilization that got destroyed in a generic magical doom.

>Basically if all of America got destroyed except for Mississippi.

>>50250758
Do they at least look alien in looks and manners?

>>50250820
Give them some muscularity and you've got yourself some non-standard elves.

And non-standard elves are best elves.

>>50249632
they're also pretty alien in general since they believe cutting down trees to be equivalent to murder, but they don't have a problem with killing animals
they also always come in extremely large armies, but all of their equipment is made of living wood, which is pretty shit so they usually get massacred by like 10 well-equipped dwarves
apparently they're ok with this, even though an elf can live for hundreds of years

>>50228413
So tolkien elves? nice job kiddo

>>50224997
I'm actually playing a Fungus Elf from a merchant society right now. No joke. It's fun.

>>50251184
>Fungus Elf

Is he part fungus?

Fungus is growing on him?

His people farm fungus?

Tell me you sweet secret anon.

>>50224997
My "Elves" and "Dwarfs" are pretty much living nature, Elves are sentient trees and plants while dwarves are born from rock and "craft" their descendants and population.

but the whole setting has sentient everything after after a god lost a bet, there are still "dumb" beings but if you see a fish, more then likely there is a race that's living in the ocean building structures and has some form of government.

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>>50224997
Not elves, just the few last members of the human race that survived the first and last Hyper-Finno Galactic War that annhililated their entire civilization (and others) and only ended because of the M.A.D. option in the form of self-replicating and adapting army of robots that target anything above medieval-level of technology was launched.

Since fuck-all of their supertechnology infrastructure survived, hundred and eighty thousand years without the formerly mundane life-extending services, gene-treatments and consumables has taken it's toll on the genetically modified and cybernetically augmented humans that have trouble comprehending and relating to their descendants living their lives which last barely an eye-blink in comparision to theirs and can't even share thoughts and speech wirelessly with their brain implants and have entire conversations within a fraction of a second.

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>>50228368
At least post the good one.

>>50225899
Isn't that basically mtg Lorwyn elves?

>>50226847
That just makes me think of a Druid conservationist

>Fuck all of that preserving nature just for the hell of it stuff
>I can get twenty gold pieces off of nobles for authentic handmade ceramic vases and woven baskets
>The farmers will happily pay for me to inspect their crops and livestock to ensure they're all healthy
>Screw this protecting nature crap, I'm here because I need this forest to continue my livelihood.
>Spends downtime magically accelerating growth at a tree nursery
>Can use my corporate connections later in the campaign if I treat them well

>>50249821
I bet you you have zero human nomadic societies despite the prevalence of nomads historically and to this day. This is exactly the cancerous and stupid part of fantasy races.

>>50225379
Drifters a good.

>>50225379
It's a crime that the writer handwaved Hitler committing suicide because ?????? and now we have a story that could've had uncle Adolf doing his antics through a silly japanese filter view of history.

>>50255048
NA NA NA NA NA NA...

So where do you draw the line on number 4?

Muh setting is pretty low fantasy focused on mythological themes instead of a straight up fantasy world - instead of "what if there were other sentient species and magic" it's more along the lines of "what if these peoples' myths were real". All of the weird, magical, non-human stuff is pretty rare and deep innawoods.

There's a race of folk carved from aspen trees. They are long-lived and live in a forest, spending most of their time in the shape of aspen trees. When they take on human form, they are very beautiful but often play devious tricks on travelers. When they're angry, eyes open up all over their bodies and if you look into them they will curse you.

Is this too not!elf?

My elves are robots that dont like humans because unplugging, they spend most of their time farming, as a hobby, and collecting solar energy and writing poetry on why humans did a bad thing.

My "elves" are actually humans from our own future timeline who have set out into space with their prolonged lifespans and colonized a star system, and then began to make their own real life RPG using their advanced technology. They are smug little shits because they are the only ones that know the entire world is really just one elaborate joke by these ageless sick fucks who grew bored of regular games centuries ago.

Oh and magic is just a manipulable energy field that is powered by their original colony ship buried underneath the "elven" homeland.

>>50250849
Thought about giving them forelocks too but I think that might be more of a cossack thing

>>50238218
Bait post

>>50250694
Well, I've kind of lost interest in the noble or honorable savage warrior direction that most people took them, and I wanted to give Orcs a very different reason to be feared on the battlefield. Which is to say, they're aren't savage, noble, or honorable. They'll burn down villages, poison the wells, launch plague-ridden corpses into fortified regions, and even release poison gas on the battlefield. Even after they're through with an area, the traps they leave behind tend to make it hard for anyone to reclaim it. They have no concern about unarmed men, or even women or children. Prisoners are hostages at best, and are often used as emergency rations or meatshields. Some might get shipped back to the city to be used as guinea pigs for medical research.

Basic point is, Orcs will use any dirty trick available. Their main idea of honor is much more about diligence and dedication to duty than it is about fairness, comfort, or fighting. The ruin Orcs leave in their wake are why they're hated and feared, and are also why most nations would rather avoid going to war with Orcs in the first place. It's possible to be on peaceful terms with them, and that's when the more "Dwarf-like" aspects come out.

>>50244812
>That guy who thinks learning to scoop vanilla, is harder than rocky road.

Six thousand years ago the world as we knew it was tamed by the elves. From north to south, east to west, the ruins of ancient elven settlements stand as testament both to the breadth of their domains, as well as the folly of pursuing sorcery.

The great elves are gone now, survived only by withered barbarians (the descendants of exiles and outcasts from the empire's apex) and twisted fragments of arcane lore deposited in libraries and tombs across the land.

>The Elven Empire was actually destroyed by vampirism. Although long lived the elves were the sole race without an immortal soul and as such wouldn't be reborn into the cycle of life and death, as a result the elves researched necromancy, animancy, and the occult and later descended into full fledged demon worship in an attempt to force their way into the Great Cycle.

>They spliced demons into their souls in a form of voluntary possession. Instead of finding a place in the Great Cycle they found themselves displaced beyond it; immortal beings with a thirst for blood and depravity, parasites.

>The great ritual which was meant to be their salvation was instead their doom. For every elf that was 'saved' tens of thousands perished, their bodies unable to withstand the demonic energies that were unleashed. The survivors fared little better, turning upon each other in an orgy of blood letting.

>In a single night the Elven Empire was destroyed and abandoned.

>Only the outcasts, the exiles, those who saw the empire's research as folly survived untouched and unchanged by the demonic magic.

>>50227799
this is pretty much what TES does but with the mer suffix

I like it though

>>50257568
Nah. It would work well.

>>50257846
I also like the whole pragmatic thing.

But I do make them in such a way that it's so out of need for survival (the steppes where my Orcs live in are...pretty dangerous) and their way of war makes them great believers of implementing unique new tactics or adjusting existing ones to a danger.

>>50224997
3 and 4 are both garbage, 1, 2 or even something in between are fine.

>>50262262
>I also like the whole pragmatic thing.
I do like the necessity as a good motivator, but I also don't want to excuse everything Orcs do. Sometimes they do bad things because it's necessary or efficient. Sometimes they do bad things because they just don't give a shit, as the result of their culture's origins leaving empathy somewhat undervalued. Especially with other races. Sometimes they're just dicks. It's hard to tell with Orcs, especially if you're not one of them.

Still, they're usually a very reliable people, even if their methods can be offputting, as their culture instills the average Orc with a grim devotion to their duties. While they can and will weigh priorities, upholding their alliances is one of those duties. Trade arrangements, ceasefires, and treaties aren't likely to be set ups for future betrayals. While they're probably Lawful Evil, they're more about the spirit of the law than the letter of it. They don't generally screw people over with cheap loopholes or technicalities, and they won't accept being screwed by them either.

There are multiple Human nations on friendly terms with Orcs, though it takes awhile of dedicated effort for either party to get used to the other before they can reach the "drinking buddy" stage without any major upset.

>>50263805
Agreed here.

Orcs should be neutral most of the times, and most of the things they do are done because the situation forces them into these situations.

And the whole spirit of the law is a good thing.

My Orcs, as mentioned earlier, started out as human barbarian tribes that went to live in the great steppes that were heavily saturated by the spiritual energies of this place. The result was that the barbarians became bigger, bulkier and cunning with every generation until they didn't turn into basketball player-sized muscled warriors that were capable of not only surviving in hostile places, but also to thrive and prosper in them (and who are not green, but more like darker orange).

At first they were a nomadic race that moved periodically from place to place, until they were united by a utter badass who received a vision that if the Orcs won't unite as a race and adopt their own brand of magitek, then they'd be screwed so hard that they'd be wiped out from the face of the planet.

He pulled it off, but not without some difficulties in the form of a number stubborn chieftains and matriarchs. YET HE PULLED IT OFF.

The Orcs were from purely nomadic to semi-nomadic (by managing to establish some of their first actual cities), established trade routes with neighboring human kingdoms from which they also got their wisdom of magitek. This resulted in creating their brand of shamantek over the years (shamanistic BATTLE MECHA!!).

But like it comes to many examples, there were many Orcs among them with various personalities. And some of them were simply douches...

>>50224997
HFY is the worst.

>>50264132
sure thing, Elflord

>>50264055
And thus these douche Orcs, who didn't give a damn about the other tribes, sought to plunder the villages and cities of the neighborhood kingdoms.

These things did happen in the past, but the Orc tribes have laws about warfare and when to end it. And the douche Orcs overdid it. Overdid it so hard that one of the dominating kingdoms send in a mechanized army to conquer them. Said army had not only normal troopers in it, but also powered armors, wizards and priests standing on magitek tripods, and humanoid mecha.

The Orcs got their shit together really quickly and managed to defeat the invaders with a mixture of tactics, pragmaticism, and knowledge of the steppes. In fact, they defeated the humans so hard the latter were running away instead of retreating.

After this the Orcs went on to make an example of the douche Orcs and things were back to normal, if not better since the other kingdoms were happy about the warrior basketball players punching the dominant kingdom (because the latter were arrogant bullies).

>>50241296
>>50236167

>Niggerfaggot
>Double-Niggerfaggot

A year away from 4chan and now the quality of posts have dropped this low? Is this a Trump thing? /b/ spilling over again?

>>50264248
Sadly 4chan was never able to top its opus magnum: double-nigger.

>>50230218
That's not really a "third gender" so much as genderfluid. Are they biologically different as well?

>>50264055
Well, I didn't exactly describe neutral Orcs, but rather ones who aren't too evil. It's not that they aren't douches, it's that they're sufficiently dependable and trustworthy once you've got them on your side. The drop in mysterious disappearances after allying with orcs is still sometimes noticeable enough to make everyone feel uneasy due to the unfortunate implications, but few people would ever want to go back to when the mutant cannibal elves were dragging random people underground for who knows what.

High and Wood Elves do tend to be a bit less creepy and outright disgusting, but there are still traces of a shared cultural origin with the Orcs. They don't regard other races any more highly than Orcs do, but they certainly trend more towards idealism and high culture than their subterranean cousins. Unfortunately, they also tend more towards being fair-weather friends, and are less likely to properly uphold or honor their alliances and will often break from them if their sensibilities are upset. They're also more likely to think they're clever by pulling some trickster loophole nonsense.

It really depends if you prefer ruthless bastards you can trust, over more outwardly good-natured fellows you can't.

i suppose that my elves fall under 1 and 2, i tried to make them similar to pre-columbian tribes and civilizations: there are 4 mayor civilizations and a fuckton of small nomad tribes, all of them have different cultures (mostly)

>>50264555
That's difficult for me.

Somehow I'd rather neutral dudes who simply want to mind their own business.

On the other hand you could make some becoming too pragmatic to the point even other Orcs see them as trouble, and those who are more into being...a little open to others.

>>50224997
All options sound promising if done good.

>>50265112
>On the other hand you could make some becoming too pragmatic to the point even other Orcs see them as trouble, and those who are more into being...a little open to others.
Well, there's always going to be variety. Orcs that are on good terms with humans tend to treat humans in general a little better than those who aren't. The main thing here is I don't want Orcs who did nothing wrong and only react to people coming over to fuck their shit. An Orc is one of the most dependable ally, or even friend, you could ever find, but you won't want too ask too many questions. The main barrier to the "drinking buddy" thing isn't that Orcs refuse to be open with others, it's more that everyone is going to get extremely uncomfortable if they're too open. Clear boundaries of acceptable behavior have to be set, or else there will be a few misunderstandings on both sides.

I mean, someone's going to be put off their lunch if they're invited to drinks at the public execution/cannibal feast, especially if there's any expectation to participate in the executions. The Orc is your good friend you'd rather not know anything about.

>>50265755
Hence why it should be that when they o go pillage and loot, then simply do so because they need to and take only the amount that they need.

Even if that thing is seen as bad, but they should have limits when doing so and only when other options either won't resolve it, don't exist, were missed or...well insert other reasons for this.

And agreed here. There should be certain standards and rules imposed in order to avoid or mitigate most of the misunderstandings between Orcs and other races they interact with.

But knowing other races, they'd also have their share of how they see the Orcs and there will always be superstition and certain racial enmities.

>>50265931
>Hence why it should be that when they go pillage and loot, then simply do so because they need to and take only the amount that they need.
While my Orcs are a different style than yours, most would consider it shameful to waste time and resources to go pillaging and looting for things you didn't even want. War is a means, not an end. There's no special honor and glory in war. It's merely a difficult and dangerous task to be carried out if necessary. Those who do it well are definitely respected for putting their lives on the line, but it's not the only path to respect in their society. Their brutality is more a reflection of wanting to end their wars quickly, with minimal casualties on their side.

There's a saying that Orcs aren't truly warriors, they're exterminators. They kill when something is too much of a threat or a nuisance, or when it's simply in the way and they think it's more expedient to just remove it.

>>50235522

You never been to a cinema, mate? Why do you think the floors are so sticky?