Warmachine/Hordes General

RIP Helldiver, you were too beautiful for this world.

Banetown got what was coming.

Is it worth me buying Gunnbjorn and/or Grim 2 if i don't own a Mountain King, a Bomber or bandits?

I do own Bushwackers, but i want to hold off buying the UA depending of whether or not i pick up Gunny/Grim2

>>50066963
Argh, i said bandits, meant highwaymen. What ever
Also, how good is calandra outside of elemental beast spam?

I bought multiple units of Banes to cheese out wins and never thought there might be a day where they'd be useless waaaahhhhhh ;_______;

Point for discussion: What if Zaadesh turns out to be good?

>>50067524
Have you tried banespamming in Mk3? I think it might still be viable in some matchups. I mean, a single unit won't cut it, but it might still be possible to reach critical mass. And heavy spam lists will be scared shitless.

>>50067565
[Spoiler]Just kidding I play Skorne. Zaadesh will suck mad wang like the rest of our warlocks.

>>50067867
No, seriously. He already has one good spell. That's more good spells than half of our warlocks.

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>>50067867
>>50067956
Nevermind. His spell list was just spoiled. So far it's okay.

>>50068001
Well, there's always the chance his feat will be good...

>>50068107
I just want field marshal [gang] and not Fury5. The spell list is perfectly fine.

Battle-charged beasts behind a burning ash screen sounds legit as fuck.

>>50068206
A legit way to lose heavies, yes.

Clouds are nice except most gunlines already ignore them. Flashing blade is a trap spell unless it kills the enemy war caster. Counter charge without something like knockdown is a good way to lose heavies.

IR is nice.

>>50068240
IR is indeed nice. Trying to drop him into Cygnar or Legion does seem like a mistake though, you are right on that.

I would consider the following though:
1) I don't expect as many gunlines as now to completely ignore clouds come January.
2) You still have a second list to cover those that do.

Why it would get your heavies killed I cannot fathom. If you place the clouds at the right distance that enemies can't walk+attack what's behind them your models are safe from melee. And if you place 1-2 reach beasts behind them, you can even allow a few enemy models in to fish them off.

>>50068388
The entire faction has problems with gunlines, he has no one to pair with.

Counter charge works like this. You charge forward, make a single attack, and now your heavy is right in front of the opponent to get murdered.

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>>50068449

you are bad at the game n will 4ever remain a baddie lol

>>50068001
Well, so far it's not looking good. And he's almost definitely fury 6. And flashing blade. Classic Skorne.

I'm guessing his game plan is cloud delivery with counter charge shenanigans, but I think our only eyeless sight beasts are the razorwurm and despoiler right?

So far just another caster that needs a permissive shooting environment to perform. If you maintain your upkeeps you can make a 6 inch cloud wall and camp nothing or very little.

I think trenchers do his job better.

>>50068542
Could you do a battle report with Skorne into Sloan pls? Or Caine 2. Or Tristan. Or Ossyan. Or, well, Khador. Your hidden tech has piqued my interest.

>>50068449
Gladiators can slam whenever the can make a charge (Bullheaded) and get +3 to the distance roll.
Soldiers have pull. But yeah it's not super amazing. He will need good abilities and a good feat to impress me.

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>>50068718

nareesh wins every one of those matchups v. handily barring maybe Tristian who i guarantee u will never c in a tournament setting due 2 the proliferation of wurmwood/karchev/those exact same gunlines 2 which he withers like a doe in a storm

brute, gladiator, sentry, tiberion, paingivers, legends of halaak, wrong eye and snapjaw - martin hornacek never lost vs. a gunline w/ the list

makes a solid pair for rasheth/hexeris2 where hexy2 also plays into wurmwood v. reliably

the ideal thing about zadeesh2 @ this point is that he possibly answers non-Cygnar gunlines in a manner that can allow you to flex pair into other things and counter charge+burning ash forces unfavorable engagements vs. most melee lists

if he's got any type of beast buff ability (such as conferred rage/alpha hunter/old eKaya Alpha ability) and/or a feat that buffs beast SPD or has a control element he will b v. good just off the strength of burning ash + cc alone where he can put up 2 clouds n camp 2 if upkeeping both spells w/ despoiler/marketh

>>50068689
>Well, so far it's not looking good.

Without knowing any passives (god I hope they start giving Hordes casters passives that are *comparable* to Warmachine caster passives) or feat, this is a *good* spell list. If the rest of his cards are dreck, he'll sill end up being dreck, but I can't see calling this spell list bad by any stretch.

Given recent history, though, Skorne players have no reason to expect something not-terrible from the rest of his cards, though, but this spell list is solid.

>>50068814
That's not what Bullheaded does. Would be awesome if it did, but it only lets you slam on a frenzy.

If he has FM: Gang (and don't all of the junior2s so far have a FM, even Una?), that kinda begs light spam and go for multiple counter-charges per target.

>>50069105
Oops, only most upgraded juniors have FM abilities, but one of those with one is a Hordes caster.

>>50068001
>Flashing Blade
O shit nigga dis gon b gud.

>>50068001
>Countercharge with a Soldier
>Drag the target away from its charge target
HUEHEUHHUEHEHE

>>50069105

Rule of thumb for a new Skorne player or an established Skorne player that has hit upon a winning combination of rules and abilities:

>is it good?
>then you're probably doing it wrong.

That... wasn't a joke, anons.

>>50069439
Stops the model from getting the charge attack, but it can redirect the charge attack (and buy additional attacks if a jack or beast) because the charge succeeds *when the charge movement completes*, regardless of whether or not the charge target is there when the charge attack is made.

Also allows weird things like Megalith under Krueger2 charging a target that Envlivens away, using Geomancy to TK it back, and still getting the charge attack on it.

>>50069490
Hard to speculate what Skorne will look like post-errata, so Zaadesh2's current stats are probably pretty meaningless.

BG Countercharge + BG Gang would be amusing on a big pile of Brutes, though.

Zaadesh may as well not have clouds though.

He upkeeps his two spells and casts two clouds. So he's now camping zero, and can't cast any rushes.

Why bother? Zaadesh2 needs zaadesh1 as an animus bot and he can't use him. And marketh can't cast any of his spells to lighten the load, he can just use souls to upkeep for 6 points.

>>50069943
>Hard to speculate what Skorne will look like post-errata, so Zaadesh2's current stats are probably pretty meaningless.
He won't get errata'd.

>>50070231
>implying PP wouldn't change something immediately after 'release'
lol

>>50070247
They specifically said he won't be.

>>50070231
I assume he meant hard to imagine how he'll fit into nu Skorne, since nobody really knows what that looks like. Errata for Z2 or no.

>>50070280
skreeonk

Fyanna 2 speed 7 with chain strike and fury... Sweet mother of god let her have somewhat decent stats and she'll be one of our top casters

>>50071104
>Chain strike

>Fury

Man I wish skorne got to have good spells and abilities.

>>50071492

next skorne caster. Moshar 2 with the feat "mountains of salt"

>>50071671
>Skorne caster getting a feat that would be spell in other factions and the spell has been nerfed to begin with.

Sounds about right.

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>>50067565
The dirty thirty lives whenever I deign to play WMH in liue of 9th Age.

Its just not the same. MK3 isnt as tricksy.

>>50071744

Actually I was thinking it would be like Wormwood's feat except it granted elevation and cover in your control

>>50071744
>Sounds about right.
Mordikaar's feat is a Jaga-Jaga spell, but with +1DEF. Great apart from how titans got -2DEF.

>>50070756
This.

He's got at least one BG-wide ability, and given the pattern with other junior2s, might have another.

Whether he's good with 2016v2 Skorne beasts may not have much influence on him being good with 2017v1 Skorne beasts.

Literally an errata to, for example, the Savage can be the difference between him being useless and awesome.

>>50069943
If the model didn't end base to base, there's a chance the Soldier could drag it and have it end up >1" away from both the Soldier and its target, completely negating the charge.

>>50071104
That might convince me to take my Legion off the shelf.

>>50072650
Since the pull goes until it hits something, that's going to be tricky to pull off.

I'd guess that he's going to want lights to threaten multiple countercharges. Best possible world is he gets FM: Gang to supplant his signature spell, and a couple of Skorne lights see some sort of buff.

>>50072766
>Since the pull goes until it hits something, that's going to be tricky to pull off.
Oh fuck you're right.

Fuck it then, just slap the +2ARM on the Soldier and have it play guard dog for your heavies. Bonus points if you can land a Burning Ash nearby to drag the model into.

BUT SERIOUSLY THOUGH WHY DOES HE HAVE FLASHING BLADE PP RRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>50072801
>WHY DOES HE HAVE FLASHING BLADE
I've got it.

He has an ability that gives him a point of fury when he kills a warrior. You can clump some shit together, Flashing Blade it, and spam fire everywhere. Then Soulwards can scoop up the souls and blow holes in people's dicks.

>>50072801
He'll have gang himself, or perhaps even Flank.

>>50072840
Flashing blade can't kill friendly models.

>>50072868
Well fuck this. There was me thinking PP had finally given Skorne some legit form of counterpunch.

That also doesn't feel very thematic for Butcher since he murders fucking everyone.

>>50072884
Butcher2 had that.

Butcher3 was about him trying to actually control himself a bit more.

But Flashing Blade is usually a trap spell, yes.

My bet is that he'll be RNG2 with Gang/Flank with his warbeasts.

It's his feat that really is going to make or break him. He's almost certainly FURY6.

>>50072948
if he has our 3 battle plans or new good ones he might be decent.

Pray for mat7 Battle Driven Swordsmen in January.

Imagine thinking counter charge in a faction of mat 5 and 6 is good

>>50073237
But the Bronzeback has MAT7!

Zaadesh2 isn't so bad. His feat/statline/passives are good.

>>50073815
>>50073815
Post them then.

>>50073815
Unless he has Field Marshal: Flank (Friendly Faction Model) I call bullshit.

>>50073815

I believe you anon, but understand that I'm currently afraid that Flashing Blade means he's going to be another crack at a Fury-6 melee wonder, and short of the egregious jank that is Butcher3 that never produced a warnoun of the first rank and we've already got the makedas.

>>50074049
But anon, don't you want a mat 7 pow 12 flashing blade warlock, with a 14/16 statline or some shit like that? Isn't that what skorne really needed all along?

>>50074147
Skorne already has a MAT8, P+S12WM, 16/14 statline warlock. And we really really don't want another fucking Morghoul2.

>>50074586

I was thinking more a dark mirror of Makeda2 as likely. Monotone "yay", and feeling out battlegroup counter-charge would be good for a few games of fun for anybody.

Morghoul2 is just weird (Fury5? The-version-Stranglehold-it's-OK-for-Skorne-to-have?) and I would hope non-reproducible.

>>50074763
I honestly think that Flesh Hooks is a decent spell concept. It prevents the target from doing anything which extends its movement by 3", ie. charge, trample, or slam. This means you can get closer to it without risking being killed.

The problem is that 1) it needs to deal DAMAGE, not just hit, 2) it's only a fury 5 caster, 3) the RNG is short enough that you'll die if you miss unless you bring that good old Skorne support bloat, and 4) IT'S ON A FURY 5 WARLOCK SERIOUSLY WHY IS YOUR FURY STAT YOUR FUCKING MAGIC ATTACK STAT TOO WHAT THE SHIT

>>50074763

Yeah, he'd just need to be released with a "Rabid Reptile Hound" heavy warbeast that costs 7 points and tramples without being forced.

>but that would be unbalanced

>>50074882
And

6. Stranglehold/Lock the Target exist

>>50074890
>Medium base reptile hounds
Maybe they'd have functioning rules that way.
>Hurr it's 7 points for 2 hounds and there's just 1 spiral per card durr
Like nigger anyone who used Naaresh's meme tier list in Mk2 will have like a dozen of these fucks lying around WE NEED MORE SPIRALS.

>>50074882

I get the sinking feeling that part of the problem with Morghoul2 in mk3 is that they actually *did* listen to us. He got his feat back. You'd think we'd be happy.

Leaving aside that the Skorne community does on occasion get in a frenzy over some pretty boneheaded things like a black friday stampede for the last beany-baby... I think we were assuming there would be this, like, widespread improvement that went without saying.

>>50075177
Even listening to Skorne players wouldn't have done what happened to Morghoul2. He lost a bit in the mk2 to mk3 transition.

Gained
>Mk1 feat
>Steady
>gained .5" on his sword
>gained Blessed on his sword
>gained 1 Arm
>gained Grevious Wounds on his sword
>gained Flesh Hooks

Lost
>Lost auto-stand up
>Lost immunity to CRAs
>Lost immunity to CMAs
>Lost immunity to Back strikes
>Lost Arcane Assassin (so fan now no longer ignores spell buffs)
>Lost Elite Cadre [Perfect Balance]
>Lost 1 Def
>Lost Silence of Death (which was buffed to also add +2 Str)

>>50075349
They almost got it right with Morg1. Replace Side Step with Overtake and he'll be great. His only problem in Mk2 was dying to knockdowns. They fixed that but took a point of DEF away from him. 16/14 with steady is not as good as 17/13 with steady. He wasn't even good before, they changed fuck all else about him. Like come on guys he's meant to be an agile assassin/torturer quit with the mediocre DEF stats.

>>50075349

Except for the Arcane Assassin, that seems more of a side step and "general toning things down for mk3".

>>50075349
Didn't he also lose Parry?

>>50075515
>"Hey guys how about we tone things down in Mk3?"
>"Sounds great. Okay so, how about we make the tree the caster, and give it a POW24 AOE7 blast that removes the models from play?"
>"Seems fine. What if the tree could make more trees as a feat?"
>"HAHA LOL XDDD"

>>50075543
Yep.

>>50075543
But he gained Ghostly, which he can now cast on himself every round so he can Flashing Blade your caster 3 times and fucking die. Oh wait, you can bring Marketh to cast it! What a great way to spend your points!

>>50075555
At least Wurmwood is being nerfed in the upcoming errata.

>>50075555
What makes it a pow24?

>>50075574
Yeah great I've only had to put up with 7 months of being easily swatted aside.

>>50075569
He always had Ghost Walk.

>>50075584
Models hit take a POW12 damage roll. It may as well be a POW24 7" blast.

>>50075704
So that's pretty disingenuous, then. I guess that a khador mortar is pow 20 then, mak3's ground zero is a pow 26, and rasheth's breath of corruption is pow 24.

>>50072655

Thats according to the newest insider. We don't have anything besides fury and SPD 7 though

>>50076176
If Fury was the only spell on the card, it'd still be better than most skorne warlocks.

>>50075792

Eruption is a pow 28 AoE4

>>50075792
It wouldn't be a problem if not for how Hellmouth is basically AOE7. You can catch too many things underneath it too easily.

>>50076176
I gave her feat a couple days ago.

>>50076301
Wow I just checked the tree's card and seriously Hellmouth only costs 4? For real? Meanwhile I'm stuck with Hexxy's Obliteration that costs more, and hits a smaller area for less damage?

>>50076330

Didn't see it. Is it in this thread?

Can we all stop and wonder how pointless counter charge is in a faction whose entire melee damage output is based on a +2 str buff that lasts one turn

Please don't use your mighty pow 16 counter charges against me. That's as much damage as an 8 point berserker does! But the titan gladiator is 1 higher mat than a berserker, so that makes up for the extra 6 points it costs.

>>50077122
Oh for fucks sake...

>>50076241
Fyanna2 also has Admonition.

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>>50075555
its the feat that I take issue with most of all. I can deal with hellmouth to an extent with things like proper spacing, stealth, creating clouds to block LOS etc,etc. Hell, I like using it with denny 2 for movement shenigins. but a 14 inch forest that I cant shoot/charge into while wormwood camps the objective on turn 1 then piles all his shit in the way is some serious bull, at least with hellmouth there's some counterplay I can do and it is a moderately expensive spell but against the feat I cant do jack all and giving guys ghostly is just a stop gap measure

JUSTICE FOR CRYX

Hey guys new player here bought the starter box and looking at possible armies to get into. Really looking at the rhulics or trollbloods, maybe pirates or khador.

Would you guys think these would be good first armies or atleast safe purchases. I like the idea of scottish orcs or kiwi dwarfs.

Can Dug In Models be affected by Battle Charge?
Asking for a pack of Scarabs.
>>50068001

>>50078634
Why wouldn't they? They would just lose dig in as soon as they charged.

>>50076417
it's a spell meant to make dogshit casters like Denny2 but then they fucked up and gave it to the caster with one of the best feats in the game.

>>50077676

What? I couldn't hear you over the sound of all the blood in my body rushing to this giant erection

>>50071804

In what way was the Dirty Thirty ever tricksy?

It's as straightforward and brainless as lists get in this game.

>>50072108

Also affects your entire army instead of *one* model, but whatever.

>>50075584

Memes

>>50078634
>>50078711

Exactly this. Dig In doesn't stop you from moving, it just penalizes you for it.

This is the way of hoksune.

So Zaadesh does have one thing going for him.

If he keeps sac pawn, he can afford to not camp anything. Because he can sit an aradus sentinel with invioable resolve 3 inches in front of him, and have a sac pawn target that's arm 25 vs guns, steady, can't be pushed or slammed. So he's not realistically going to ever be killed by guns unless they kill the Orin Midwinter you're also hiding back there so they can TK the sentinel.

>>50078964
People just doing mental gymnastics to try and convince themselves they dislike a new thing for a reason other than it's new and different.

>>50079909
DOes he have Field Marshal?

>>50072948
New to the game, why is Flashing Blade a trap?

>>50081585
It's an assassination spell, but caster on caster assassination is very rare, and trying it usually makes you lose. See: Morghoul2.

So, I kinda want to get into this game with a few buddies, but I'm still undecided which faction to play.

From what I've seen, a lot of strategy revolves around hiding your caster, which is not really what I want to play. So, which caster is able to play a more direct role in combat and kill dudes himself without instantly dying and maybe even win?

>>50081632
Why would you use Flashing Blade against an enemy caster? Wouldn't it be more efficient to buy more attacks?

>>50081704
Can't buy attacks if you spent your action standing up after one of your heavies threw you at their caster.

>>50081633
Some casters can pretty handily contribute to games themselves, but they need a good survival mechanic and you need a plan to keep them alive. If you leave them exposed your opponent will kill them.

Good examples of very aggressive casters:

Butcher 3, Vlad 3, Kromac 2, Madrak 2, Makeda 3, Lylith 3, Reznik 2, Durgen, Caine 1 or 2

All of these guys either are really beefy, continually shoot the shit out of your opponent, or have mechanics that make them eat so much of the enemy's army in one turn they can't retaliate as well. I'd look at those and read up some of the tactics write ups, listen to the podcasts and look at their rules if you want a good idea of how playing aggressively in this game works. Every caster who isn't your stereotypical wizard is really capable in combat, but if their dumb ass gets knocked down in front of a robot with an axe the size of a car, they're dead.

>>50081704
It's more efficient to buy attacks with flashing blade a lot of the time. You can do it and still have your movement and combat action for example, and it costs the same to buy a flashing blade attack against everything in your arc as it does to buy 1 attack versus one target.

>>50081781
Ooh, that's nasty, I like it.

>>50081633
1. Every warcaster could be killed
2. Killing enemy warcaster is a win condition, so allocating all your resources to do this is entirely justified.

So no warcaster will be on the front line all the time. But there are warcaster's who like to do things themselves. But not all the time - only in critical moments. Every other time you'll hide them just like any other warcaster.

To name a few - Cain and Butcher3. But there are more. Probably, every faction has one.

>>50081781
That only works if he's steady. So to start off with he has to take a cyclops brute and spend a point of fury to cast safeguard, leaving less for him to work with.

>>50082183
Actually, my mistake. I forgot order of operations. If he casts safeguard then either he was already thrown and so can't stand up, or the beast throwing him will be after his activation.

So yeah, flashing blade is pointless.

>>50082530
I think people he throw him,he sacrifices his action to stand up, then he just moves into contact and starts casting flashing blade. Either way it's pretty shit and janky at best.

>>50082530
The only caster with Flashing Blade that can bring a Cyclops Brute already has Steady built in. Morghoul2 can in theory assassinate casters that way. Marketh puts Ghostly on him, TyCom gives him +2" walk, Bronzeback with Enrage throws him 8", when he gets there he feats for +4MAT. The problem is he lacks damage output. Against a target with 16+ ARM you won't reliably kill even with 5 Flashing Blades. He needs to lose weapon master but gain that thing that halves the target's ARM. Maybe have it only work against warrior models so he can't walk around slapping beasts to death.

>>50082530
Well, you can still get thrown, use your combat action to get up, advance into melee range, and then Flashing Blade, no? It would give you an extra 2-3 inches to your threat range.

>>50082624
Fun fact about Steady and throws, you still have to sacrifice either your movement or action after being thrown in your turn, even though you weren't knocked down. Shit's stupid. It's a rule that exists just to shit on Morghoul2 by depriving him of two initials.

>>50082530
>>50082614
>>50082624
>>50082700

You can't stand up in an activation that you were knocked down in.

The trick is if you're steady, you have to sac movement or combat action if you were thrown, so you throw a steady caster with flashing blade who activates, sacrifices combat action, then moves into place and casts flashing blade to assassinate the other caster.

To get even crazier, the sacrifice of move or action is keyed off of being thrown, not how many times you're thrown -- I've won a tournament game doing this with Amon (spin up Synergy to 3, have Crusader throw Amon to second Crusader who throws Amon close to caster, Amon sacs combat, walks up, flashing blade to victory).

It's pretty jank outside of very specific casters, but for Amon at least (who already is happy with having several jacks with open fists) it's a long-range non-linear assassination vector that's really hard to block off all possible routes.

>>50082780
As long as we're on throw jank with Protectorate, the Covenant of Menoth can make any caster steady (so long as you throw them inside it's range), so any Protectorate caster can do throw shenanigans, Amon just has the best pure assassination with it (and he comes with Steady built in).

High Reclaimer can use it to increase the threat range of his feat assassination, for example, by throwing him forward inside the Covenant's range, saccing action, walking forward and feating.

Shit's going to to be fixed in the January errata, but outside of a few casters who can really abuse it, it's pretty janky.

>>50082780
Morghoul2 would be able to do that since Gladiators and Bronzebacks are open fisted and Handlers increase STR. The problem is that's ALL he can do, while Amon can just win by spamming jacks. And Amon has an extra point of fury and comes with parry built in, while Morg2 has to bring Marketh (see: one of the worst models in Skorne) to compensate.

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?263984-Summary-of-the-November-2nd-Infernal-update

>>50082881
>Melee range is not coupled to front arc (i.e. It's now a 360 degree range).
Wait doesn't that mean you can just walk into a model's back arc and not take a free strike?
>Lightning Strike is retroactive
So the Archidon got a LITTLE more playable.

>>50082905
Free strikes are tied to melee range and LOS.

>>50082881
>Melee range is not coupled to front arc (i.e. It's now a 360 degree range). You can charge past models and turn to face at the end of the movement. This is big for acrobatics, flight, incorporeal, etc. as models with those rules can charge over models now so long as their base does not completely cover the charge target's base during the movement.

Dick-charges all day and all night.

Maybe Una2 will be good.

WMW coming up! :D

>>50083664
:D!

>>50070224
>Zaadesh may as well not have clouds though
Nah. For one consider taking the swamp gobbers too. That extra cloud makes a single one from Zaadesh a lot more effective. Hell it's possible in some matchups that you may want to just spent 6 fury in your first turn on clouds and save casting upkeeps for the turn after.

So, whats better at fury management:
Whelps, dhunian knot or the gobber chef chopping up extra kreil stone bearers?

>>50085819
Your opponent. If you load up a beast to 4-5 fury, it's usually in a position where it will get killed.

Out of your list, it's easily the chef. He's cheap and does just enough.

>>50085899
Chef also has the vastly underappreciated advantage of doing his Fury management during the Control Phase, letting you adjust for changes in your Fury state during your opponent's turn (like transferring hits, Mak2's Stay Death, etc)

>>50068001
>Battle-Charged
Obvious tricks with the Soldier, solid with everything else. If you can soften up a heavy with a Cannoneer shot or two, you threaten to take out an aspect with your Countercharges, making their beast dead in the water. I mean, their charge target gets to Countercharge too, remember. That's one non-boosted charge, and one boosted charge. No one wants to risk losing a heavy like that. Very strong spell.

>Burning Ash
Great against gunlines, great against heavies. Overall a good flexible spell.

>Flashing Blade
Unless he has some dumb abilities, this is just a trap.

>Inviolable Resolve
Worthwhile infantry buffs are a rare thing in Skorne. Your frontline Gladiator going up to 21ARM is scary. Or even better, a Sentry. A 23ARM Sentry on the frontline that gets to both Countercharge AND Retaliatory Strike you? You're going to lose an aspect mid-activation.

Feels like one of the better spell lists in Skorne.

>>50086367

I'd change Burning Ash to "corner-case great, depending on how the terrain was set up". Dropping down one 3-inch cloud anywhere in your control range can turn some spotty terrain into a solid defense.

>>50086367
>their charge target gets to Countercharge too, remember

Countercharge requires the Countercharger to not be engaged, so the charge target doesn't get to if the charge succeeds.

I wouldn't think you can do it after the Soldier pulls because it's no longer immediately after the charge advance ends, and you can't trigger both and choose order because the charge target can't trigger Countercharge because it's engaged when the charge movement ends.

>Feels like one of the better spell lists in Skorne.

Yep. I'm hoping he has FM: Gang too.

>>50086616
I can do better than Field Marshal: Gang.

Field Marshal: Primal Magic Yeah nigger I mean the Shaman's ability on everything for no apparently reason

>>50086678
Pic?

That is actually pretty fucking boss since it lets you do things like Snipe or Spiny Growth a Mammoth, have something scary get Lightning Strike, or charge an Inviolable Resolved Sentry or Tibbs into a zone and Repulsion.

Pending any Skorne animus shuffles, of course.

>>50086367
Soldier trick wont really work out. Its extremely hard to pull anything with reach away from its charge target. You have to be with in two inches of the charger to attack and pull so you end up just barely leaving them in.

>>50086777
Or hell, just drop Spiny on an IR'ed Sentry standing in front of an Agonizer for an effective ARM 27 vs melee.

>>50086678

Holy shit unlocking this guy is going to take forever. We'd still be doing it when mk4 drops.

>>50086839
Or ARM 26 on a Mammoth.

Fuck, if this is true, I'm going to have to paint the thing now.

>>50086854
>>50086777
Guys I was only spitballing. It'd be fucking incredible though. He'd instantly be our best caster.

>>50086872
Well, PP did let Madrak2 exist in his current form, so it wasn't implausible :P

>>50086872

Don't sweat it anon. My sense of hope in these matters died long ago, it's like watching other people on tv.

>>50086616
Actually, I think I was wrong here:

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?259441-Admonition-Countercharge
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?258502-Admonition-and-counterslam

Both threads come to the conclusion (with no infernal opposition) that you can *trigger* Countercharge while engaged, but can't resolve it, so:


Under Zaadesh2's BG-wide countercharge:

enemy Juggernaut charges Gladiator, ends charge move engaging Gladiator
Countercharge triggers on Aradus Soldier and Gladiator
you choose to resolve the Aradus Soldier countercharge, it charges the Juggernaut, and pulls it so it no longer engages the Gladiator
you then choose to resolve the Gladiator's countercharge

This seems to work until there's an infernal ruling on Admonition/Countercharge not working.

This is... interesting.

>>50087536
It's a shame this wouldn't really do anything with the Sentry due to its longer melee range. Sentry would've been perfect as you'd get 2 Countercharges and a Retaliatory Strike. Your shit couldn't be alpha'd without great risk.

>>50087672
Counter Charge only requires that you aren't engaged, it has nothing to do with being engaged.

A Colossal, for example, can counter charge an enemy model, provided it moves into it's melee range and the colossal is not engaged.

>>50087672
It may not be so bad if the Sentry can't be charged base to base. One of the new rulings lets you charge past something as long as you engage it after turning to face at the end of your charge movement, which (especially combined with Carapace on the Soldier) gives you some flexibility in where the pull goes.

Seems pretty good so far, but this is one of the cases where you're going to have to be *good* at the game to take advantage of it.

>>50087801
A Colossal can't countercharge because it can't move outside of its normal movement.

>>50087886
The movement trigger is independent of resolving the successful charge.

A Colossal would trigger counter charge, be unable to move, and then check to see if it had succeeded it's charge. Being unable to move doesn't cause the trigger to end, it simply skips the movement portion.

The wording on the Bronzeback's Countercharge says nothing about being engaged, just that the model ends within 6" and in LOS.

>>50088025
Learn to read, shithead.

>This model can use Countercharge only once per round and not while engaged.

>>50088076
Joke's on you, those words weren't on WHAC so it was never a question of my reading comprehension.

>>50087911
I don't think this works because part of the charge is an advance, and gargossals can't advance.

>>50088025
Read it again. The whole rule.

>>50088093
>arguing rules based on the exact text in third-party sources

Dont forget your archidons can countercharge over the heads of your troops. If they make the archidon worthwhile it could be pretty legit to have one standing behind a cetrati brick. Bonus points if the crit goes off.

t. Venethrax player that owns a couple of scavengers.

>>50088094
I know it works.

Another example can be declaring a charge when B2B with the enemy model. Under the new rules, you don't actually advance, because moving 0" doesn't count as an advance, but you still succeed in your charge.

Another example is Watcher: Watcher requires the model to make an advance and then make an attack. Colossals can't advance, but can still trigger the attack.

>>50088136
>Bonus points if the crit goes off.
Puppet Master lasts for one round so you get two shots.

>>50088159
Has to last a round, it works on enemy models.

>>50088183
>Countercharge making the Archidon playable
>In turn making the Willbreaker playable for Puppet Master as well as Tough on the Cetrati he can give +2ARM to
Is there anything this man can't do?

>>50088221
Have enough fury to cast both his spells and rush?

>>50088475
Just bring your lesser warlock as a Rushbot ;^)

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but Zaadesh2 doesn't have a Field Marshal.

>>50088532
You can't because Zaadesh is the lesser, and in this case the caster is Zaadesh2

>>50090089
Sorry, I should've put a smiley face on the end of my post to let you know I was being ironic. Oh wait shit, I did. Looks like you're just autistic then!

>no cephalyx colossal
>No pirate battle engine
>No cephalyx battle engine

Fuckin dwarves gettin the cool shit.

I heard the Zaadesh card was spoiled. Where is it?

>>50090861
Just the spell card. What else would you like to know?

>>50091119
WUTS TEH FELD MARSHUL

>>50091128
He doesn't have a field marshal.

>>50090154
Irony=/= sarcasm for one thing, should probably learn the difference before you call someone else autistic, and if you knew I was right you could've probably realised you're a fucking retard for posting it in the first place

Magnus3, Drake2, or Fionna2?

>>50091476
Magnus3 forever and ever. We Cygnar now bois

>>50091256
Then do you know about his feat or abilities?

>>50091476
Caine3.

>>50092005

What about fyanna? Does she still have attack types? How hard does she hit?

>>50092446
Fyanna2 feels like a MHA.

So when are we getting full spoilers for the new casters?

>>50093397
They'll be on war room either tomorrow or saturday most likely.

>>50093397
Depends on the new caster.

>>50091119
I would like to know his FURY stat please

>>50094123
He's fury 6.

>>50094123
FURY 6. But that isn't really asking much.

>>50091256
>He doesn't have a field marshal.
Aaaand he's shit.

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>>50093368
She certainly looks like one.

The PP Retribution forums have a thread talking about new character jacks. This is the first I know if it. What other information does the community have?

>>50096637
From that thread:
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?263858-New-character-Jack-wild-speculation-thread&p=3721860&viewfull=1#post3721860

Wait till this weekend. There will probably be announcements.

>>50096669
Man... I was hoping for some sweet spoiler action.

>>50096496
Those tiddies man.

>>50096496

Does that chain seem super fucking thick?

>>50097055
Probably so it doesn't break easily. That's a compromise I'd be very okay with.

>>50097055
Everything about her is thicc.

Hey, a neophyte with a question here.
Frankly I doubt I'll ever get to play Warmachine for a bunch of reasons but I can get the All-in-One Army Box for Convergence relatively cheap and it's tempting me. How useful are the minis included in that in actual competive play? For reference here's what's in the box:

• Warcaster Father Lucant
• Inverter Heavy Vector
• Diffuser Light Vector
• Galvanizer Light Vector
• Eradicators Unit (5)
• Optifex Directive Unit (3)
• Reductors Unit (10)
• Transverse Enumerator Unit Attachment
• Enigma Foundry Solos (2)
• Accretion Servitor Solos (3)

Oldfag returning to the game after a long time. How's Mk III? Is it balanced? I'm seeing some complaints in this thread.

[ DON'T ARGUE ]

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Soon

>>50097970
To be concise, Mk3 is overall better than Mk2 for balance, but it has some huge holes(Skorne).

Meta shift has made gunlines super good.

However, PP has handled their PR like a bunch of children in the last year, so people are pretty pissed at them.

>>50097733
It's most certainly worth it for CoC.

Foundries aren't as good as they used to be and Accretion Servitors are still pretty bleh, but both can be made to work(the latter mostly as targets for the TEP, granted).

>>50097970
Base rules are pretty good aside from some problams like throws (which are being adressed in January).

Balance is a bigger issue. Warmachine is mostly fine, except for Cryx, which was overadjusted to some degree.

Hordes is fucked on a basic level. Aside from some broken casters they just can't keep up with Warmachine. Skorne is the worst example, but not the only one. How much of this is adressed in the January errata will probably have a huge effect on the health of the game.

>>50098051
>but it has some huge holes(Skorne)

Goddamn. I was a Skorne player. What's wrong with Skorne?

>However, PP has handled their PR like a bunch of children in the last year, so people are pretty pissed at them

Could you explain? Where can I read about this? I wanna get caught up on what's up these days.

>>50098119
Thanks for the response. I want to learn more, though.

Kinda stressful. Privateer Press used to be dope as fuck. I don't want to see this game deteriorate. Mk II was pretty damn good.

>>50098149
>Kinda stressful. Privateer Press used to be dope as fuck. I don't want to see this game deteriorate. Mk II was pretty damn good.
My thoughts exactly. But PP has been pretty weird lately. First they mess up Hordes and the general launch of Mk3. Then they promise errata 2 per year and insiders on them twice per month, but kind of forget about the latter. I honestly want to enjoy WMH again, but PP seems to take objection to that.

>>50098169
To be fair, they're probably trying. They fucked shit up, though. They don't want to see their game deteriorate.

What's wrong with Skorne?

How have they fucked up their PR?

Someone said this:

>PP has handled their PR like a bunch of children in the last year

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How painful is the assembly of this model?

Wings look like a huge pain in the ass.

>>50098258
For fuck's sake. Wrong thread. I got three or four open.

>>50098266
Its ok, anon. Wargames are fun

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>>50066241

>>50098197
Skorne seems like they're over costed and under performing across the board. Cross faction comparison of similar options gets really embarassing, and they suffer from significant support bloat that your other units have reduced stats to compensate for. They don't work very well as a faction for now.

The rest of hordes isn't doing so great; they're getting carried by one or two power casters, who will almost certainly get nerfed come Jan.

>>50098288
Agreed.

How good are Circle in Mk III? Do we get to teleport all over the palce again?

>>50098307
place*

Double teleport assassinations were dope as fuck in Mk II.

>>50098305
That's really shitty. Poor Skorne. They were in a great place in Mk II. Cataphract spam was unreal.

Seems like they shouldn't have updated to Mk III.

>>50098317
Circle is in a decent place right now, they have one of the premier meta bogeymen in Wurmwood. The Stalker is still great (can now use lightning strike retroactively, so no wasting a fury on it if you don't kill anything), and the Sentry Stones are one of the best contesting/attrition units in the game for dirt cheap

Double teleport still gone, most place effects (including stones) are now completely within.

>>50098343
Wurmwood finally gets his day in the sun.

All four hordes juniors are up on the Chain Attack page. Una2 looks incredible.

>>50098197
>What's wrong with Skorne?
Remember how Skorne was lower mid tier in Mk2? Well they nerfed the entire fucking faction.

>How have they fucked up their PR?
Try reading some of the insiders from before the launch of Mk3.

>>50098445
I'm eating breakfast atm, but they'll be on Conflict Chamber soon, too.

>>50098445
>All four hordes juniors are up on the Chain Attack page
Can't see it.Could you link to it?

>>50098197
Skorne's problems have been publicly recognized by PP and are supposedly getting addressed wholesale in January. How the faction ends up after that is anyone's guess though.

>>50098519
>and are supposedly getting addressed wholesale in January
On one hand I am glad they recognized that. On the other hand they still have to fix it. And we are talking about the design team that brought us such gems as the Rhinodon or Morghoul2. I don't really think they know what they are doing.

Una2 makes the Storm Raptor playable.

Amazing PP.

>>50098613
Na, the only thing she gives it is +2SPD.

Now fucking Griffons, on the other hand.

Jesus fucking christ. Sprint and flank naturally, immunity to ranged as a spell, immunity to melee on the feat.

And she's got a great gun and a super good alpha.

>>50098625
>Na, the only thing she gives it is +2SPD.

You mean immunity to non magical ranged attacks and melee ?

>>50098676
I mean +2 melee.

>>50098676
Reread the feat.

Only light warbeasts get the immunity to melee.

Fucking Circle Christmas.

Everyone else gets like, one neat trick.

Una has fucking 5 or 6.

Z2 looks...good! The mammoth under that feat is two mat 8 pow 20s for having the audacity to move into its melee range. With sac pawn and Orin midwinter he actually looks like he has really strong game.

I'm excited! About a Skorne thing!

>>50098696
Yep read it I corrected under post, accidentaly deleted +2 from melee that should be the bonus from hand of fate.

>>50098767
She gives the bird basically nothing.

She's just going to spam disposable griffons and either assassinate you or get a super alpha, sprint away, and be immune to melee and ranged attacks so she can alpha again next turn.

>>50098764
He's like a solid B warlock, overall. Good feat, decent spell list, great survivability at range. The Defensive Strike/Battle Charged interaction is also very cute.

They clearly want you to spam lights with him though.

But then you look at fucking Una, and god damn.

>>50098764
He's pretty good.

As someone who plays... well, shit, six factions now, I'm... annoyed that when Skorne gets a new toy, Legion, Circle, and Trolls all get *better* toys. Damnit, I want a reason to pain my Mammoth :(.

Zaadesh2 is good.
Fyanna2 is really good.
Horgle2 is great.
Una2 is meta-bending.

>>50098676

Wind Wall is too small to fit a huge base. So no immunity to non magical ranged for the storm raptor either

All the Hordes juniors shit on the Warmachine ones. Suck it up.

>>50098905
I think Z2 is better than Horgle, honestly.

Both have the problem of being super dependent on their feats though, I think.

>>50098905

I think Horgle too is actually a bit mediocre and Una is probably not as good as she looks on paper.

Sac Pawn Warbeast is what saves Zaadesh, and learning how to maximize it's potential is what will make him stand out.

>>50098954
Let me explain you Una2 :

4x Scarsfell Griffon with extendec COntrol Range = 28 Control Area, ok ?

Una2 Feat 4x Griffon run 18" toward your caster one of them can run 20".
This 4 Griffon have DEF 15 and are all immune to melee attacks so ne free strike while they run at you.

Next turn yor caster takes 24 POW 12/11 MAT 8 WM attacks.

>>50098929
I... I don't play Trolls, but Horgle2 seems pretty awesome.

He gives free charges to models on fire, and has an AOE4 nuke with continuous fire.

Said nuke is COST 3, so Troll Moses can Spell Slave it.

Solid Ground is pretty awesome when everything you have is Tough. And then you get an ARM buff for something, like, say, Warders because Shield Guard into a shooting-heavy meta.

And then his feat gives you boosted attack and damage rolls from beasts on targets that you get free charges to.

He just seems really good to me.

>>50099025
Let me get this straight.

So what you are saying here is essentially "SKREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEOOONNNNKKKK?"

>>50099025

Or you could just crowd models around your caster and shoot the griffons down. All they have to defend themselves against shooting is stealth right? It's not that fucking good, come on.

>>50099025
Don't forget that if you feat on the assassination turn instead of the setup turn, those griffons charge 12" *over* models (ignoring them for LoS), through forests (ignoring forests for LoS), and can't be hit by free strikes.

The analysis is kinda rushed because we just got the cards today, but I'm not sure she's any worse than Sloan, and may be better because she doesn't have to invest as much for her crazy assassination threat.

>>50099037

His biggest problem is that he's completely shut down by fire immune models. Like against Trolls and certain Menoth lists his main kit is neutered. He's not bad he just has some extremely bad match ups.

>>50099071
>"Have Eyeless Sight or lose" is reasonable.

>>50099071
Stealth, Forest and Wind Wall.

Usual Circle stuff.

>>50099091

Why would they ignore forests for LOS?

>>50099097
That's true because every single troll list has the stone scribe elder, and every Protectorate model is fire immune.

Also I don't think he's allowed to cast IR or Solid Ground against those factions.

>>50099097
Fair enough -- I'm thinking of him mostly in paired list format where you drop the other caster into hard counters.

Outside of hard counters he's great; if you can't drop something else into hard counters he's not nearly as good.

GLORY TO THE KRIELS

>>50099121
Scarsfell Griffons have Tracker naturally, which lets them ignore forests for LoS when declaring a charge.

>>50099121
Scarsfell has a rule that let them ignore Forest.

>>50099108

Or you mean every popular gunline has a way to drop Stealth? You could at least concede that you don't honestly believe she's so good that she just runs her battlegroup at you and wins.

>>50099110

In that specific scenario given there's no way the griffons benefit from wind wall and having a forest conveniently nearby is entirely situational.

>>50099127

I don't think I've seen a single troll list without the stones and the elder. Also I did specify that "certain Menoth lists" fuck him, not all.

And yeah if you think just casting solid ground and IR is enough to carry him through those games then good for you.

>>50099162
>In that specific scenario given there's no way the griffons benefit from wind wall and having a forest conveniently nearby is entirely situational.

The scarsfell you send In are vulnerable that true. I was talkinga bout the turn 1-2 where you just want to protect them while approching the enemy.


>All they have to defend themselves against shooting is stealth right?

Just for clarity scarsfell is DEF 15 natural. When they are engaging your caster they go up to DEF 19. DEF 17 for the ones that you are taking on the back arc.

I don't think they are so easy to kill cointing that probably you will have to turn your model to target them so you can't benefit from AIM bonus.

>>50097970
As long as you don't play Skorne or Cryx you're set.

>>50099197
I did it for the kriels

Una2 isn't so bad when you realize she's just a slightly poorer version of Mk2 Saeryn.

>>50099162
>Or you mean every popular gunline has a way to drop Stealth? You could at least concede that you don't honestly believe she's so good that she just runs her battlegroup at you and wins.

She's not very good against Stealth-ignoring gunlines. This is true.

I think you're overstating the commonality of Stealth-ignoring gunlines, though. She may increase their commonality, though; I'd definitely change up a couple of my gunlines to pack more anti-stealth if I was expecting to see her.

Honestly I really don't like her -- and I play Circle (along with Protectorate and Cygnar) -- because she's yet another assassination caster with minimal counterplay, with the most obvious counterplay being... Sloan. Because, clearly, Sloan needs more presence in the meta.

So I am just getting started with Warmachine and I think I want to build Irusk2. Im pretty sure I am supposed to swarm infantry with him but I don't really know what his list should look like. Am I supposed to just bring a bunch of winter guard or something else?

>>50098060
Thanks for the answer.
Based on your replies I assume units that aren't Servitors and/or Foundries are useful, right?

REEEE fucking privateerpress has been down all day and I really wanted to look something up on their page.
They can't even keep their website online, no wonder they're so bad at balacning the game.

>>50098131
Not him, but I also play Skorne. Our main problem is our warlocks all suck huge cock compared to every other faction.

As for PR, they've been flat out ridiculing people on Twitter for daring to question the balance of Mk3 when stupid shit like Wurmwood and Storm Lances shit on people constantly.

Added the new casters to conflictchamber.com.

>>50099637
>Our main problem is our warlocks all suck huge cock compared to every other faction.
Some of them are good. Our real problem is that all our stuff has sub-par stats and we basically need 50p of support to bring them up to mediocrity.

Link to Zaadesh2?

Best I can come up with right now. I'll try again in January.

(Zaadesh 2) Lord Tyrant Zaadesh [+28]
- Cyclops Savage [8]
- Cyclops Savage [8]
- Titan Gladiator [14]
- Tiberion [22]
- Titan Cannoneer [17]
- Despoiler [18]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Praetorian Karax (max) [11]

>>50099745
It's on fucking Facebook. Like hell I'm going there.

>>50099787
Savages are still worse than a single Nihilator. Just bring your usual suite of beasts besides a Soldier for that PS20 def strike and countercharge bullshit.

>>50099823
>Savages are still worse than a single Nihilator
You can't Rush+Enrage a Nihilator.

>>50100011
An enraged Savage? To do what? Clear infantry? Because it won't dent a heavy. And if you want to clear infantry, use Nihilators.

>>50099823
Just wait for January.

>>50100032
To get an alpha on the feat turn. They're the only beasts fast enough in the faction. Then the rest of the list can move up behind them and threat countercharges.

And MAT8 P+S17 is respectable. They won't trash heavies, but they don't have to. Taking off half the boxes from one each is enough. But who am I kidding. You're just memeing.

>>50100055
>Just wait for January.
Probably for the best.

So I got into an IK RPG game and I wasn't sure about this and my DM isn't around to ask but can a warcaster jack a marshaled 'jack by bonding to it?

>>50100089
>Probably for the best.

If you like Savages, you'll be happy.

>>50098625
I hate the new mini thought so gonna use old one.

>>50100285
>If you like Savages, you'll be happy.
Are you the same person dropping the vague hints at our next warlock? I understand that you can't say any more, but that is already good to hear.

If Enrage didn't last 1 turn I would take him with savages. But pow 15 defensive strikes from 8 point beasts aren't that scary to me.

To me, it seems like nihilators are the way to go. He can crowd them up behind 2 clouds to help protect them from shooting, and mat 9 P+S 14s are pretty great from a mass of infantry. For the cost of 1 savage's mat 8 P+S 15 defensive strike, you can nearly get 6 nihilators with mat 9 P+S 14s. It's going to be pretty much impossible for melee infantry to deal with feated nihilators, you just have to worry about shooting. Only heavy cavalry and shit like manowar can take that.

>>50078964
Dirty Thirty isnt tricksy.

Casters and rules make the game tricksy. MK3 Cryx is less tricksy than mk2, in addition to but not related to being less powerful overall.

>>50099582
Winterguard Rifles + Rockets + Kovnik Joe, keep them near Irusk to have a nice Tough brick. Bunch them into an Artifice Of Deviation template to make them extra frustrating.

Kayazy Assassins + UA, put Battle Lust on them to turn them into Weapon Masters on the charge, then do the same next turn but just advance into back arcs and pop minifeat to make them hit like charging weapon masters again.

Winterguard Mortar, put Fire For Effect on it for super accurate, super strong blasts.

Add Behemoth, always have Solid Ground upkept, use whatever points you have left on more jacks or Kayazy Eliminators.

>>50100747
While this is all good advice for the starting Khadoran, I would be shocked if the Rifles/Rockets/Joe combo survives the January errata.

The shop is working, got my Tuna on the way.

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>>50100818
Winterguard Deathstar survived MkII into MkIII by simply changing which of the Winterguard was used. If PP was actually concerned with the Deathstar, they would've done something at the onset of MkIII

>>50100558
>Enrage
Honestly, PP should probably get rid of Enrage in its current form and replace it with free charges. And then give every Skorne beast +2STR.

>>50101300
I think you're on to something there.

You know what else I think should happen?

I think they should just give every Troll and Skorne beast +2SPD and pathfinder naturally, then remove Rush from the game.

And oh, give every Skorne infantry unit tough and every model the ability to reroll attack rolls, then remove the willbreaker from the game.

How about giving everything Eyeless sight and magic weapons, and removing the poopman from the game?

God damn, just think of all the shit we could do.

Una2 seems damned good. I guess I need to buy some Griffons.

>>50101357
Sure, Skorne might almost be at the level of Menoth then.

>>50101357
That's one nice slope you are slipping there. The Willbreaker is optional support, the Soulward is optional support. The Beast Handlers are auto-include. And auto-include is bad. Is that so hard to comprehend?

>>50101357
Rush is an animus you autistic fuck. Handlers are quite literally a tax on your list that only brings your beast's PS up to standard with jacks. They offer NOTHING else to your list. You could manually manage fury if you wanted to.

>>50101465
They're solid healers, too. Try putting a unit behind a mammoth healing 6d3 a turn.

>>50101465
One of those dames was sexy as hell, I said: "Ooh, I like your size".

>>50101507
Then a chain lightning or whatever takes them all out. The Mammoth is bad anyway so you're just paying points to turd polish at this point.

>>50101507
Absolutely. But a list that wants to get by on 2-3 beasts while emphasizing infantry should not have to take them.

>>50101613
>Mammoth is bad

I get Skorne is in a weird place, but can only good players comment from now on? Because this is just shitposting.

>>50101768
Agreed, and this is the heart of Skorne's actual issues.

>>50101357
>How about giving everything Eyeless sight and magic weapons, and removing the poopman from the game?

The Extoller Soulward is a classy lady and has the best ass in this game, I'll fight you anon.

>and that stuff ain't comparable. Skorne Warbeasts in melee and not effected by enrage are probably not even supposed to exist. They go from "maybe over-costed (but what in hordes isn't)" to "what the actual fuck pp, lay off, can't you see skorne is already dead". If it happened at all in a playtest for so much as a single warbeast in a single activation its because somebody got their beast handlers killed or was swatting infantry.

>>50102587
Yeah, the mammoth was always the best garg, until the blightbringer made it second best.

A mammoth has the shooting of 3 cannoneers (without far strike admittedly) and tons of melee output and durability. Mammoth is fine.

>>50101287
Regular winter guard actually perform very well depending on the list. Boosted attack roles on gunfighter sprays in, for example, a strakhov list can be pretty cool for not a lot of points.

The rifle corps are def top dog. I'm a little worried about the changes to gunlines coming. I hope it isn't blanket nerfs to the point that it becomes the perception that PP just wants you to buy different units every year or so.

>>50102657
>19 points for WGI, officer, and Joe without counting rockets
>not a lot of points

>>50102680

That's a "B" grade melee unit with UA for other factions, anon. Khador jank has warped your perceptions. Detox.

>>50100224
Warjack cortices (I had to look up the plural spelling.) have a sort of mental password to prevent that. Laborjacks might not always have a lock, as they are usually of a cheaper make. Also, and I'm not 100% about this part, you have to physically touch the warjack to bond to it.

So, short answer is maybe, but you'll be slapped by a ton of metal if it turns out you can't.

>>50102680
>19 points for Skorne reiver unit with attachment
>taking a max unit for spray alpha
>Joe is doing nothing else in the list

It's no mk2 pyg burrowers, but ya it's not bad when you think a little more holistically, anon.

>>50102816
>praetorian
Tier list confirmed.

>>50102844
So when something triggers counter charge, does it then trigger defensive strike? Because that's a pretty big fuck you on feat turn.

How the fuck did Una get through playtesting? She's ridiculous!

Fun fact:

On feat turn, beast handlers are mat 7 with reach, inflict pain, and anatomical precision. If an enemy warbeast ends its movement within 2 inches, it's getting defensive striked and taking fury with inflict pain. That seems pretty neat to me.

>>50102875
Only if it ends its movement in melee range of the respective beast but not engaging it.

>>50102899
She's fucking silly that's for sure. And she probably will be until L+L.

>>50102875
Yes, but counter charge doesn't trigger if you're engaged.

So in order to use both, the enemy must end its advance within your melee range, but not within the enemy's melee range.

>>50102875

If the enemy model moves within the friendly's range but doesn't engage it, then yes.

>>50102939
Ends movement, not moves.

>>50102918
>>50102939

Or if you use a Soldier to pull the target so it's no longer engaged.

>>50102875
>>50102916

Thats not how it works.

A model moves into counter charge range.

Now the "response" phase occurs.

You counter charge and move. Since we are still in the "response" the enemy is still counted as currently ending their movement thus defensive strike occurs as well.

Admonition and Countercharge work the same way.

You get engaged, can't countercharge, thus you admonition away. Now you can contercharge because the enemy is still ending his movement and you are no longer engaged.

>>50103022
>Since we are still in the "response" the enemy is still counted as currently ending their movement thus defensive strike occurs as well.
I strongly doubt this. Is there an Infernal ruling for that?

It works with Admontion and Counter Charge, because their triggers are actually fulfilled. In this case, the trigger for defensive strike (end advance in melle range) was never even fulfilled.

>>50102899
Circle is the new Cryx

>>50103022
It's not that there's a "response" phase, it's that when the enemy charge move ends, you can then *trigger* both Admonition and Countercharge. They're your actions, so you choose the order, so you *resolve* Admonition first. You move out of being engaged, and then resolve Countercharge, which triggered on the advance ending, but can now resolve because you're no longer engaged.

There's no "counting as", you just have two triggered abilities to resolve, and once the triggering condition is met, it isn't unmet.

>>50103156
Mostly. Countercharge doesn't work if you're *engaged*, not in melee, so if an enemy model advances and doesn't engage your model with both abilities but is engaged by it, it can trigger and resolve both abilities.

There's another weird situation this creates where you can Countercharge and then Defensive Strike:

Enemy engages your Gladiator within 6" of your Soldier. You trigger Countercharge and Defensive Strike on the Gladiator and Countercharge on the Soldier. Resolve the Soldier first, hit and pull the enemy so it no longer engages the Gladiator. Then resolve the Gladiator's Countercharge, *then* resolve the Gladiator's Defensive Strike.

>>50103480
I need an Infernal call on this. Too many ways to read it.

>>50103649
See >>50087536

I can't find an infernal ruling on this, but a couple of cases of "forumites came to conclusion and no infernal (or judge) said otherwise".

>>50103755
I do get the impression PP is trying to avoid having an effect stack like in MtG, but these sets of interactions (adding stuff like weird charge and assault interactions) does, at least de facto, create one.

>>50103649
>>50103755
>>50103775
Follow-up: if you want an infernal response, in my experience the best way to get one is to post the question and then consistently and politely argue against the consensus.

Anyone have any experience with gatormen? I want to pick up a hordes faction on the side. I'll probably go with Jaga-Jaga if I pick them up. What's the best way to play her?

>>50105171
The best way to play gators is by using a gator caster with farrow infantry.

>>50105271
why though

>>50102904
Have you never played Makeda1 or something? Under Carnage, Handlers ruin infantry.

>>50105345
because PP, in their infinite wisdom, nerfed all the gator infantry to the ground and made all the farrow infantry better (or at least brigands, which might be some of the best infantry in the game now). Then they said you can mix and match minions however you like.

I suspect they nerfed Gators because Skorne took them in a list sometimes.

>>50105422
Under Makeda1 handlers don't have defensive strike.

How dumb would 9 reflex servitors under aurora with flight and parry be with the new charging rule

>>50100818
It'll be fine. Nothing in Khador is SUPER broken, we just have a lot of good stuff. The Winter Guard boat is 22pts. Roughly the same cost as Storm Lances and Sentinels+UA. They're super easy to kill and are fucked by stealth an clouds.

People are just whining because they can't deal with Khador being good again.

>tfw Zaadesh2 despite being good fails to address Skorne problems
At least Errata soon.

>>50105428
>might

No, they are. I can think of six small-base infantry units (well, seven, if you count both flavors of Winterguard Rocketeer-carriers) that stand out as good, and Brigands are easily in the middle of *that* pack.

>>50105750
No.

Kodiaks under Harkevich are broken.

Winterguard Rockeeters are broken, and extra turbo broken with Joe.

Beyond that... it's ok. I'd expect the January errata to knock rocketeers down to crit brutal instead of straight brutal, make Kodiak clouds follow them, and maybe increase the cost of Mad Dogs and Berzerkers by 1. I doubt Khador gets the savaging that Madrak2 is going to receive, but, yes, Khador has broken stuff. It's just not as bad as Cygnar or Madrak2.

>>50105896
One pre-errata caster isn't going to fix a faction.

I am liking how he plays into the gunline-happy meta, though.

>>50106033
Oh me too, no doubt. Still not 100% on a list with him though.

>>50106076
So far my thinking is that he wants to anchor his list with either a Mammoth or double Soldiers.

My line of thought being that in both cases you use those beasts as part of your cloud chain for LoS blocking, since both are going to *rarely* fear shooting, so you can hide a lot of squishier stuff behind those bases + clouds.

The Mammoth loves IR, and Defensive Strike on the feat stacks with Counterblast, which gives you a decent shot at knocking out a system or spiral on a heavy.

The Soldiers have some interesting tech for Countercharge with the pull on their claws.

Either setup makes him mostly immune to shooting with his sac pawn.

New thread

>>50106172
>>50106172
>>50106172