>Magic is a known phenomena >Has innumerable powerful and

>>50019122
How much of the real world population is made up of scientists and engineers?

>>50019122

What percentage of the current American population are engineers?

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>>Fiscal responsibility is a known phenomena
>>Has innumerable powerful and practical uses
>>Teachings and learning resources are not kept secret
>>There is little danger in practicing it
>>Anyone of average intelligence is able to learn it
>>Less than 5% of the population practice it

>>50019122
>Programming is a known phenomena
>Has innumerable powerful and practical uses
>Teachings and learning resources are not kept secret
>There is little danger in practicing programming
>Anyone of average intelligence is able to learn it

>Less than x% of the population practice it

People are lazy

>>50019149
Part of that has to do with mental problems of the poor and the thought pattern of "If I have money, I have to spend it before someone comes and takes it from me using force."

>>50019122
If you aren't magic you can't be a wizard no matter how many shitty books you read you fuckin nerd.

No but really those settings are a little weird? Usually the above explanation is the one given but it seems like a cop out most of the time. I like the idea that low level magic (not necessarily d&d low level magic) is known but lots of people and used regularly.
But learning advanced magic is difficult as fuck without having a talent for it and expensive for get the materials, so most people go into trades because it's honestly about the same money and job security wise as a generic wizard.
Admittedly, wizards have the advantage that every now and then one becomes an arch wizard who can command vast forces and shape history and things like bakers never throw up the occasionally archbaker.
But archwizards are fucking rare and so it's more just a general romanticism around the idea of being a wizard because "maybe someday", even if they know that really they'd have a better shot trying to marry into royalty and becoming king or something. At least that's possible, there's royalty everywhere. Archwizards are once an Age.

>>50019139
>>50019140
>>50019169

Engineering, STEM etc, require major personal investments in resources. You can't just learn this shit from online--even if you did put in the effort and found the resources, it would be useless because noone would trust your self-taught education. Magic, on the other hand, can be learnt by people of even average intelligence. That's not true for many STEM subjects and you know it. Moreover, when it comes to magic you don't need anyone's recognition. IF you know how to cast a spell--you can cast it. Period. Lastly: magic, in most cases, can be used to lengthen the lifespan easily. A low-level healing spell solves 90% of all health related issues.

Well, the average person doesn't have the resources to study magic, peasants just won't have the money to buy the materials. For the people with the money they usually don't have the time, like learning a practical trade or engaging in politics.Fact of the matter is that most mages are probably the throwaway son/daughter of someone wealthy, a relative of a mage or are the rare self-taught individual that worked extremely hard to get their hands on the extra time/money learning magic requires. As an aside I'm assuming you are talking about teachable arcane magic like the D&D wizard.

>>50019169
>in the real world the best programmers can literally do or create anything they want
>even those who write Excel macros don't need to worry about food, water, or shelter
This is a really stupid counter argument.

>>50019169
How long does it take a programmer to learn how to, using their mind and not any chemicals, point at a spot and have it explode with the force of several sticks of dynamite?

>>50019192
>Engineering, STEM etc, require major personal investments in resources

And learning magic doesn't? In many settings, magic takes a lot of time and effort to learn to any effective degree.

>>50019192
>Magic, on the other hand, can be learnt by people of even average intelligence.

[citation needed]

>>50019192

Well Mr. Pedantic Shitlord, Magic is universally described as requiring intense study, libraries of magical lore, and towering intellect to use.

So it's really actually a great comparison and you're a dickhead.

>>50019192
You're making a lot of assumptions about this magic system.
That it can be cast freely, learnt by anyone and has lifespan increasing qualities.

It is rare that those qualities are true, and more so for them all to be. So tell me, which setting are you actually mad at? Because you're currently whining about an unlikely up hypothetical right now.

>>50019122
I think the problem comes with the definition of "average" intelligence and people ignoring the time it normally takes to learn magic. This, of course, is coming from a background of PF, so any problems I have can be solved by not playing PF. It takes at least 2 years to become a caster class that has to be "trained" for a human, and your casting stat has to be at least 1 over average (10) to cast a 1st level spell. That means you need a master and above average mental stats to learn magic beyond cantrips. Most people can't afford to blow 2 years not working. And that's a minimum. 2d6 years past adulthood to be properly trained. That is why most rural villages dint have casters. Other classes are determined by fate. Bloodlines, being contacted by a patron spirit, some type of occult whatever. People in cities should be more magically inclined than they are, though. Prestidigitation is just too fucking useful.

>>50019218
In 2nd, anyone with an INT of 10 or greater could learn magic. 10 was the average. Therefore, people of average intelligence would learn magic.

>>50019212
>>50019218
>>50019225
Bards

>>50019192
What if you need a degree to use magic?

>>50019122
I suppose I'm in the 10%? Magic is pretty tough to do and somewhat dangerous. It's based on petitioning/bribing minor spirits to get supernatural things done on your behalf, and there's always the danger that they'll get out of control or be offended by your request and make a mess of things.

>>50019122
>There is a 90% chance this is how your setting works
>t. XCom recruit
Of my entire library of PDFs, and all my half-finished heartbreaker settings, I have no setting that works like that.

>>50019212
>>50019218
Read the fucking OP.

>And learning magic doesn't?
He literally said it can be learned by people of even average intelligence. Moreover, we both know the kinds of investment I'm talking about are different. Learning STEM to any serious degree takes at least 4 years of dedicated study at a college and tens of thousands of dollars of debt. A peasant that spends a few hours a day listening to the local wise-person ramble on can learn a minor cantrip to a level 1 cure. This solves, again, 90% of his problems. A level 1 growth spell for his food? His crop harvest has increased enormously. A simple trick to animate tools? His workload has plummeted.

All they need to do is listen to minor tricks and charms and their freetime increases enormously. Then they just need to share it with their neighbours sometimes, if at all. Just don't let it get lost by your children. And why would they lose it? They cast it every day on their crops & tools and shit before hitting books.

>>50019122
It requires intelligence and talent that few have, and the good teachers are almost always recluses or in expensive schools the peasantry can't afford.

>>50019240
They also study, do they not? They're not sorcerers.

If not, then a better question would be why aren't ALL musicians bards? Why would you ever settle for nonmagical music?

>>50019266
>A peasant that spends a few hours a day listening to the local wise-person ramble on can learn a minor cantrip to a level 1 cure
SINCE FUCKING WHEN

>>50019122

Not even D&D 3.5 works like that.

>>50019192
A couple things. First is that learning magic also requires quite a lot of resources. Spellbooks alone cost quite a bit of gold, and actually finding a teacher to copy spells from is also difficult and costly.

Further, without a great deal of intelligence, you won't be able to use very much magic. This depends more on the edition, but it isn't as ubiquitous as you'd think.

It also takes years to get to even 1st level wizard status, and in this time you're doing nothing but studying, hence the 1d4 hitpoints. No time for any other combat training or doing labor, which in turn means you need even more income to become a wizard as you'll have to pay for meals in addition to the costs of training.

As for the last thing, most magic used to lengthen lifespans are either divine in nature, focusing on the healing aspects which are an entire different field of study, or involve complicated rituals that are both high level and generally seen as risky or evil, such as deals with demons or becoming a lich.

It's all very demanding, and for an NPC, the most benefit you'll get out of it is maybe being able to fling some sparks at someone. All that investment of time and money for a low level spell, which might save you maybe a few minutes of work or a few coppers.

>>50019192
>That's not true for many STEM subjects
Yes it is.

>>50019292
Pathfinder does... and that's the only one I think.

>>50019266
>Read the fucking OP.

We did. Did you miss the part where he said
>There is a 90% chance this is how your setting works. Explain yourself.

>>50019230
>lifespan increasing qualities.

A healing spell increases your effective lifespan by preventing you from dying to infections caused by minor injuries.

It is extremely rare for healing spells not to be present. It equally rare for low-level spells to be difficult to cast.


>>50019225
Not in the settng OP described. Nor in settings where magic highschools are thing.

>>50019245
That doesn't make sense.

>>50019278
>SINCE FUCKING WHEN

If they ask the guy to cast the fucking spell, what do they have to do all day? Explain. Why can't they just ask him to teach them the thing? Explain.


>>50019305
We're talking about the 90%, idiot. Fucking hell. The 10% don't need explaining; they've already provided justifications.

>>50019237
Yea, with intense study.
People of average intelligence can also learn STEM fields, too, but most don't because of the time commitment. (And likely other opportunity costs.)

>>50019240
>>50019278
Bards do indeed study, picking up spells from a variety of sources. It likely requires years of wandering and luck to pick up enough hedge magic to really call yourself a Bard, and even first level bards don't have that much to begin with.

>>50019266
>He literally said it can be learned by people of even average intelligence. Moreover, we both know the kinds of investment I'm talking about are different. Learning STEM to any serious degree takes at least 4 years of dedicated study at a college and tens of thousands of dollars of debt.
But not particularly impressive intelligence. Just time, dedication, and tuition.
>A peasant that spends a few hours a day listening to the local wise-person ramble on can learn a minor cantrip to a level 1 cure.
And anyone with access to the internet can learn to code. But most people don't.

Why is everyone using D&D setting economics - probably the worst actual part of any setting (especially in 3.5) - as the defense to this?

The real answer is that the well established rich nations would have tons more wizards and shit and it would be easier to become one. In the fantasy Africa analogue not so much. Divine magic is probably more evenly spread out.

>>50019314
>Why can't they just ask him to teach them the thing? Explain.

Because in a typical D&D setting, learning a spell from a Wizard requires a spellbook of your own, along with years of study to understand the basics of magic.

You're continually saying that 90% of settings work this way, but even by the basic rules of any D&D edition you're easily proven wrong.

>>50019192
>You can't just learn this shit from online

Sure you could.

>>50019237

In (real life), anyone with (average grades) could learn (engineering). (average grades) were the average. Therefore, people of average (grades) would learn (engineering).

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>>50019122
>to people reading the op post replies
OP has no idea how magic works in most settings and is bitching about this bizarre hypothetical setting he's made up where peasants can become first level wizards by reading a book once and then bitches that people aren't wizards deposits this being entirely obvious.
Also magic requires no reagents, has no ill effect on soul or psyche, is easy to learn by the vast majority of people from ramblings, and cure spells make you live forever.

Do not enter this thread. OP is a lunatic. Or enter, I'm not the boss of you and he's sort of amusing in that "I'm sure glad he's on the opposite side of a screen because I wouldn't want to be physically close to this drooling retard" kind of way.

>>50019122
>>Magic is a known phenomena
Yes.
>>Has innumerable powerful and practical uses
Yes.
>>Teachings and learning resources are not kept secret
Yes and no. It's hard as shit to mass-produce books on magic, and most magic-users aren't intent on simply giving away the knowledge that keeps them in business. Technically, it's not secret, but it's as good as given that you need to have a shit-ton of books to start and years to spend practicing.
>>There is little danger in practicing magic
The possibility of blowing yourself up on a regular basis does exist if you don't know what you're doing.
Also, there's a hidden danger to magic in general most people don't know about.
>>Anyone of average intelligence is able to learn it
Maybe TECHNICALLY under 5e rules, but not in practice. PCs are freaks of nature.
>>Less than 5% of the population practice it
Higher than that, though most are hedge wizards or the like.

>>50019302

Someone of average intelligence could only cast level 0 wizard spells.
That doesn't seem worth all the time and effort it takes to become a wizard, just to be an incredibly mediocre one, instead of learning a trade.

>>50019122

>magic is a known phenomenon, but setting is low-magic
>magic is inherently corruptive
>magic is has some good utility, but has a more restrictive leash than a high-magic setting
>prolonged and unlucky influence can result in permanent corruption, which can manifest as horrible physical stigma
>it's possible to mitigate this corruption through extreme methods, but impossible to be truly cleansed of it
>those with stigmas are hunted before they can go full abomination and fall to the corruption
>it's much easier to hide stigmas and corruption than to remove corruption
>even practitioners of sanctioned magical practices are looked to with suspicion on occasion
>teachers exist, but resources are harder to come by
>there is great danger in practicing magic, and it's commonplace for anyone who uses it for long enough to end up marked or thoroughly corrupted by it
>magical artifacts are rare, but usually grant good utility at the cost of corrupting the bearer
>anyone can learn it, but those who dabble without a strict discipline of study are likely to gain corruption fast and manifest stigmas easily

>magical practitioners are uncommon, but not exactly rare, although certainly not 5% of the populace uses or dabbles in magic

Symbaroum seems to deal with it somewhat realistically, albeit in a dark, threatening, and ultimately depressing manner.

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>>50019376
Pic related

>>50019122
You're taking for granted the fact that, in our modern world, we have access to an insane amount of information through the net. And I don't just mean "commoners can't google Spellcasting for Dummies", I mean that most common folk just wouldn't know where they'd learn magic in the first place. Magical schools are rare because magic is typically expensive (spell components for practicing with), so a farmer could live his entire life only a dozen miles from the best magical education facility in the world without knowing it.

To learn magic, you have to go to where magic can be learned, which means you have to know where that is, which you couldn't learn in the past without being well-connected or extremely lucky.

>>50019340
>Just time, dedication, and tuition.
Time that could easily be gained if a mage, any, was willing to cast a minor self-animation spell on tools and a growth spell on fields. That basically guarantees everyone in the town as much freetime as the spell lasts.

"Dedication" is kind of fair; all you need to do is kill a few hours listening to a guy lecture you about TWO SPELLS. Three at most if you MUST have cure. Tuition is free since you can just pay in your infinite crops, or just ask the guy who paid to share the knowledge. Or just find a kind mage. There is no reason why someone with an interest in getting the most from their land (lords, kings, merchants etc) wouldn't hire a mage.

This takes even less effort for much, much higher guaranteed reward than coding.

>>50019370
You can learn it; you can't apply it in many cases due to needing accredation. Programming is a different case, yes, but you can't take your self-made engineering curriculum and get a license.

>>50019422
>if a mage, any, was willing to cast a minor self-animation spell on tools and a growth spell on fields.
If I spent years learning those spells like fuck I'm going to use them for the benefit of some random peasants.

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>>50019408
Yeah sort of. Except more "holy shit is this nigga serious" than mad.

>>50019422
>you can't apply it in many cases due to needing accredation

You can't get a job or whatever, but you can still experiment or engineer or whatever the fuck on your own, just as with learning magic you could cast spells or whatever the shit. You can learn to cast fireball, but Duke Longindong won't hire you on as his court wizard if you don't have a diploma from the Unseen University.

>>50019422
>Minor self animation spell
Is it really that minor? Creating tools that perpetually do work without constant oversight seems like an incredibly hard piece of magical engineering to do. Plus the caster will need to know farming so they know what the hell the tools should be doing.
Honesty it seems easier to just skip the enchanting and give the tools to some peasants.

>>50019388
>That doesn't seem worth all the time and effort it takes to become a wizard, just to be an incredibly mediocre one, instead of learning a trade.

If level 0 is enough to make your fields till, tend & plant themselves, you've learnt more than enough for your time to be well-spent. If only one of those things is true, you've learnt more than enough. If only half of one of those things is true: Time. Well. Spent.


>>50019443
You don't have to. Get paid. By Lords. Merchants. Kings. Whoever.


>>50019457
You don't need it. As I said, the applications for magic in the real world are just too broad to let yourself be shackled to Duke Longindong. If you spent a decade traipsing around the countryside making fields work themselves...

>>50019471
Only one person needs to know farming: that person needn't be you. That's what consultants are for. Lords, Merchants, Kings etc would have a few on hand to tell you what your tools would need to be able to do.

It's a large cost now, for infinite long-term profit. It only takes one person with a modicum of foresight to change the game completely.

>>50019472
>You don't need it. As I said, the applications for magic in the real world are just too broad to let yourself be shackled to Duke Longindong. If you spent a decade traipsing around the countryside making fields work themselves...

That's a good way to get on the wrong side of the Arcane Administration Bureau. Ever since that incident in Southshire, they've really been cracking down on unlicensed magic users. Can't have anymore harvests destroyed just because some self-taught wannabe hedge wizard fucks up a rune and makes it rain frogs for nine days straight.

>>50019503
If they want that kind of thing to stop, they should actively make an effort to teach people about safe & responsible magic use.

>>50019515
Oh, not another one of you "free arcane education" assholes. Let me guess, you want a one payer system to cover everyone's leech treatments, too.

Fuck off back to Elfland, you socialist.

>>50019422
Let's say this saint of a mage fixes up a town. Nobody in this town has to work anymore.

Why would they try and learn wizardry, specifically? Maybe they'd prefer to focus on music, or other arts. Just beause a mage got rid of all the work doesn't mean they'd immediatly start to study.

>all you need to do is kill a few hours listening to a guy lecture you about TWO SPELLS. Three at most if you MUST have cure

It's more than that, and being lectured isn't enough. You need a spellbook in order to memorize them. And it will only be two because Wizards don't learn cure spells.

>Tuition is free since you can just pay in your infinite crops, or just ask the guy who paid to share the knowledge. Or just find a kind mage

Except it isn't, because infinite crops means they aren't really worth that much. It'll keep you fed, but if you knew engineering skills and somebody offered you a mountain of corn that they seemed to have an unlimited amount of, would you really teach them at the market price of corn?

Further, even if the mage is kind, spellbooks are hundreds of gold. You're only saving that up over a long period, and a generous mage would surely only want to teach someone who has talent. They're going to take the 15 Int peasant as an apprentice and ignore everyone else.

It is not something as simple as taking a highschool class. It is not the sort of thing you can listen to a lecture on for a couple hours and suddenly know how to do it.

It takes much more effort than learning to code, as learning to code doesn't require rare ingredients and someone to teach you over the course of years. It's also debatable if it's even more of a reward than learning to code.

Name a couple beginning level wizard spells that will make a peasants life drastically easier by being able to use the once per day. Comapre that to learning a trade and hammering out swords for a good profit as a Blacksmith, or learning an instrument and performing for money at the Inn.

>>50019192
>Magic, on the other hand, can be learnt by people of even average intelligence.
I like D&D too anon but its rules don't apply to everything

>>50019472
>If level 0 is enough to make your fields till, tend & plant themselves

BUT IT ISN'T

That's what you don't understand. You are spending YEARS of study, and hundreds of gold, to cast Light once per day. If you're lucky? You learn Prestidigitation, and can clean your clothes and house with ease, saving you a couple hours of work each week.

>>50019594
Don't you know? You can learn Wish for free from a dude in a lecture hall by attending night classes, thereby immediately entering a post scarcity society.
Clearly I am a genius and I have found the flaw in your "fantasy magic".

>>50019471
Now, it probably isn't this difficult in anon's fantasyland where magic is something anyone can pick up in a few weeks of lectures, but using Ars Magica as a basis (since it has a fairly detailed system):
>base level of effect of animating wooden tools to move with purpose is 10
>to make this a constant enchantment in the tools would be level 24
>a magus just out of their gauntlet who slightly specialized in Rego Herbam may barely be able to manage 25, but we'll say they can find a Lab Text to copy it from
>this means they can create one tool (not, I must specify, one SET of tools) per season of work
>at the cost of 3 pawns of vis, which isn't a negligible amount if they want to make enough to replace a village
Although AM has plenty of other reasons why people wouldn't pick up wizardry. We'll even be generous and ignore the vis cost and bump the time cost from seasons to months. That's still 12 magic hoes or rakes or whatever a year. Not exactly enough to break the local economy over your knee, and not enough to justify spending lodsofemone on a magic education rather than a new draft horse and some plows.

>>50019594
>You are spending YEARS of study
Or start as literally any other class, eventually get to level 2 just doing that job, and multiclass into wizard overnight. Nothing is stopping you from choosing to take a level in wizard.

>>50019661
Would those tools require maintenance or does the magic make them impervious to mundane weathering?

>>50019701
IIRC, you'd already need fairly well-built tools (another step off from perfect post-scarcity economy), but the tools would be much more resilient than their mundane counterparts. On the downside, if some jackass so much as cracks it, the enchantment breaks too.

>>50019684

Fluff =/= Crunch.

>>50019202
About 6 months. I've only been a programmer for 4 months, but I feel that something is building up inside of me.

>>50019684
And the vast majority of NPCs never make it to level 2, since they aren't out adventuring and gaining xp outside of that is incredibly slow. Also in 5e, you actually need 13 intelligence in order to do that, which is out of the reach of standard NPCs

Not to mention other classes will still require quite a bit of effort to attain, and it's pure metagaming to randomly multiclass into wizard for no reason with no knowledge anyway.

>>50019750
No such luck, I'm afraid.
I've been programming for over two years, and believe me, if I could focus my hatred for a particular computing bug into an explosion, I would.

>>50019727
Still, wood isn't known for it's brilliant tool creation properties beyond handles.
Indeed it's quite likely to warp, split or rot in the wet. Not a good property for farm equipment.

Now you could treat the wood but you're not really escaping the fact it's a wooden tool. So why not steel? Like many tools throughout time have been made of.
I'd guess that only increases the base level for enchanting an item of greater base durability.

Wow, it's almost like creating these items is incredibly difficult and they'd be prized by farm owners.

in any setting i run wizards are weird recluses who are of the specific temperament required to sit on their own in a room for years reading books, most of them are basically scientists(more like physicists and chemists) or mathematicians with little interaction with anything outside of their circle of friends who are also wizards that spend all of their time researching, the only wzards people are likely to meat are like engineers who take what the others learn and apply it to the real world or adventurer wizards who are drop outs who couldnt deal with the lifestyle. A lot of the things wizards try to do they either dont fully understand and therefore can have huge side effects or are more of a hinderance because they dont understand the rest of the world.

Basically being a wizard is really difficult in the sense of having the required intelegence and basically impossible for the majority of people to deal with the lifestyle.

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>>50019202
>>50019750
With the right equipment it's a matter of weeks.

>>50019812
Hell yeah that's what I am talking about my nigger

>>50019812
Electrical engineers are evocation, programmers are illusion?

>>50019139
Not everyone works for DARPA, but enough people can fix their own lawnmowers and computers.

Here is the answer for all of the major magics.

For wizards, magic is jealously guarded and learning it is an extreme privilege. It's tied, incredibly hard, to the hierarchy of society. It's very rare for a wizard to not be someone of noble birth or high standing.

For the church, the same is kept. Becoming the kind of priest who can cast miracles is not something you stumble upon by pure faith. There are rituals, there are pacts, and the keys to them are jealously guarded. You need to make the right connection, and prove yourself in the right ways to the right people. This, likewise, holds true for Paladins.

Ancient druid covens are much the same, though less formal. Their secrets of making pacts and unlocking powers are their keys to power, and they are hesitant to share these keys just because. Not to mention that druidism has been pushed to the edges of society. Becoming a member of a circle, let alone being given power, is not something that's done without proving ones commitment.

And then there is sorcerers. Sorcerers don't go through any of that. No one quite knows how sorcery happens. One day, a person wakes up, and they have power. Not unlimited power, but power. And of course, the powers that be have more than eagerly been able to provide explanations. Nothing good, of course. Sorcerers are cheaters - they didn't have to position themselves through politics, didn't have to prove their worth and usefulness to masters, while both sides wonder how will stab the others first. So sorcerers are branded as evil - as those who are without souls, or those who made deals with the devils, or simply monsters in human forms. Whatever lie the locals will believe to kill these cheaters.

The only oddity that hasn't been explained is bards. Rare enough, and subtle enough, no one quite knows where bards come from or where they get their powers. There is an answer, but I'm running out of space.

>Verily, the written worde be knowne
>'t hast many pow'rful and practical uses
>the Latin tongue is nay secret
>th're is dram dang'r in writing
>anyone can writeth

>Hark! Not one in a score of the king's men write!

Explain thineself

>>50019202
it's easy as "import magic" in Python?
Emacs has it binded to meta+ctrl+M?
My vim binding for it is <leader> MM?

It's easy niggah

>>50019778
I refuse to sleep, so I'm continuing this.

Funnily enough, it's just as easy to make the enchantment, assuming it's a lesser enchantment. But let's bring back in the time and vis costs for another example.

Let's say this agrimantic savant decides to make a tool that uses itself, and can be changed into different types of tools. That's probably going to be more efficient, right?

First off, to give an item multiple enchantments, it needs to be an invested item. This means a season of work and pawns of vis based on the object. If we wanted to enchant a wooden staff, thats 8 pawns. For an iron toolhead, it would be 10 or 15. However, our new apprentice can only use 6 pawns a season (limited by Magic Theory, which is usually 3 out of apprenticeship). So our apprentice will need to study for ~3 seasons to even enchant a flint shovelhead. Opening the item takes another season, which has already put us 1 year and 8 pawns of vis deep into this project.

Now the enchantments. The field-working enchantment is above, but Rego Terram this time, and 1 magnitude less on account of stone being easier to work than metal. So that's another season (still assuming lab texts) and another 2 pawns of vis.

The enchantment to make the tool change shape is another Rego Terram effect, with a total cost of 4. This gives us an enchantment that lets us change the tool once a day into another tool of any shape (although it's still made of flint, so it won't be perfectly useful). The problem is: making the tool useful will take a Finesse roll by the user. Most peasants do not have Finesse trained, because it's only used in magic. Sure, you can train them, but we've spent a year and a half, plus 11 pawns of vis, for a tool that requires a trained specialist to be much more useful than the automatic tools above.

Magic is hard.

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>>50019122
It's really hard.
Sure, you can learn it even if you aren't a genius, but it might be years before you can manifest a simple precursor to prestidigitation. Only after you start to really get into it do you start to get increasing returns. Your knowledge reaches a critical mass, so to speak, and you finally start to make progress. Not many people have the patience to reach that point, despite the incentives. And in a world where magic is a known phenomenon, those incentives are really not a big deal. If you can't un-break a jar yourself, you can just get your uncle's weird friend Trevor to do it for you.

For demographics with more access to quality education, like nobles, the percentage of practitioners is actually greater than 5%.

>>50020134
Putting your kids into training to be mages is a very likely case for nobles, as they'd have the resources to school them in the early years to prepare them for such an education, as well as the excess capital to afford the services of a teacher along with any required materials.

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>>50019122
>Magic is a known pneumonia
>It requires extreme precision when invoked or it can cause disastrous side-effects
>The act of utilizing it alone shortens the user's lifespan for every cast
>Magic users rarely make it to a middle age and often die young due either to the strain of magic or an unintended side effect of a failed invocation

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>>50019841
Pretty much.

>>50019860
Glorantha's magic is once again the best in fantasy gaming.

>>50019122
I'm sorry that people lost the point of your thread after only a few posts.

Guns in most societies now are comparable to magic in most settings

>>50019122
Expensive entry costs.
Especially finding a tutor or academy tuition. Not to even mention gaining acceptance.

After all, my stereotypical medieval fantasy setting does not include public education, which didn't become a major thing until the industrial revolution hit, when they were needed for supplying factory work.

>>50019177
You have to understand, in many countries, that's a very distinct possibility.

>>50019122

>Magic is a known phenomena
Yes. However most mages are now commissioned by kings and nations to investigate the cataclysmic event that fucked the world up 8 years ago.This has currently tied up a lot of wizards and druids.

>Has innumerable powerful and practical uses
Totally. In my Not!Arabia nation magic is used to make life easier on the citizens anything to encourage laziness, decadence, and not asking questions to your government. For peasantry its better off to ask a cleric or druid than a wizard; druids and clerics have better low level spells that would help farming and transportation than wizards. However druids are most likely investigating said event from above, and clerics are just too spread out to be effective.

>Teachings and learning resources are not kept secret
Eh...you have to go to a school or get a teacher. It's not like there's a library with "Magic 101 for idiots" books. Also, learning is not free nigga.

>There is little danger in practicing magic
Casters know this, public perception may vary. For example in Not!France the public hates necromancers and spread that hate to mages in general. Not!Spain magic users not sanctioned by the church are hunted down.

>Anyone of average intelligence is able to learn it
I mean sure, anyone can mechanically take the feat that gives them cantrips or multiclass. But even then the amount of spells you get are negligible in terms of help. Mending would be the most useful cantrip desu, but it merely aids, I don't see it elevating peasants up the economical ladder.


>Less than 5% of the population practice it
Honestly don't know, add in all the clerics, bards, paladins, rangers, wizards, sorcerers, and warlocks? I dunno, I guess my answer is the number of practicing casters is as what the story demands.


Plant Growth is the one spell I can see that would make farming and food supply easy for everyone and you can easily rotate casters to do it.

>>50019897
Winner

Sure. Why not give everyone a few basic cantrips just like how Dark Sun gives everyone a few psionic abilities?

RuneQuest is a setting which does exactly that with Folk Magic.

>>50019201
>even those who write Excel macros don't need to worry about food, water, or shelter
I am capable of this skill. Tell me how to make this my job so I can stop selling fish at a Ralphs and do something closer to my actual skillsets.

>>50019202
See, now that's not wholly fair. It's mind, and then vocal components and somatic components, and anything you could find in a spell component pouch.

And using the two of those, air gesture and text to speech, and treatingbthe ever-handy phone as a component pouch equivalent, I could re-write that virus that disables a computer's temperature sensor then overclocks the cpu til it spontaneously combusts. Or just script kiddy it. Why cast it yourself when unlimited use scrolls exist?

So with how many devices have some sort of electronics in them, and increasingly many having an internet connection, my sphere of "can explode by waving my hands and chanting esoteric babble at it" grows ever larger.

>>50019266
>A simple trick to animate tools
That's like a 5th level spell.

>>50019472
>If level 0 is enough to make your fields till, tend & plant themselves, you've learnt more than enough for your time to be well-spent. If only one of those things is true, you've learnt more than enough. If only half of one of those things is true: Time. Well. Spent.
You've only ever played martials haven't you.

The closest any level spell gets to anything remotely that useful is Create Water, and that's a cleric orision. You don't study that, a good decides it likes you enough to give you miraculous aid in the form of spells.

Next lowest i'd say is maybe spark, but it's replacible with a single copper tindertwig, or for something slower but multiple use, a flint and steel.

Or message? With its poor range though, it's basically a quiet walky talky at best.

>>50019202
Probably about the same amount of time it takes a wizard to develop a system to share information instantaneously with anyone anywhere in the world that's used by almost the entire population.

If you grew up in a world with magic, you'd find it as exciting as people find programming in this world.

>>50019139
first post is once again best post.

>>50020229
Does that make data scientists diviners?

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>>50019314
>Magic makes sense, but needing a degree to wield it doesn't
If this is bait it's pretty poor bait. You just sound like an autistic idiot.

>>50021108
That's like saying you need a degree to be able to program. If magic is a skill in itself, why would you need the approval of others before you're able to use it. Are they giving it to you? Teaching it? If so, that's one thing. I'm asking why you'd need their sanction to physically do it. There's no reason for that.

>>50021179
Maybe doing magic without a license is illegal and harshly punished by, like, the gods, or whatever.

>>50021179
You don't technically need a degree to do engineering either. You just need it to show people that you know your stuff and for them to let you engineer for them.

Same with magic. Yeah, you might be able to self-teach wizardry, but without a formal education you're probably going to die when you accidentally magic missile yourself.

>>50019122
"Anyone" can become a magician in the same way "anyone" can become a neurosurgeon. There's no inherent danger in it and it doesn't require a special bloodline but you have to be extremely talented to even have a shot at doing it effectively.

>>50019122
Actually if we're talking D&D by definition you have to have above-average intelligence to learn even a single spell.

>>50019122
That webcomic have such an interesting setting but a godawful main character. Doesn't help she's the generic "le smiling wyld n strong womyn"

Also I guess I'm part of the 10% with my setting.

>>50019122
>we'll just ignore the stat requirements that the average person is incapable of learning anything but cantrips, and those cannot be learned without someone teaching you
In the books, the average time wizards spend as apprentices - this is before becoming 1st level wizards - is 2-3 years. This is not a no-time-spent endevaor.

Even sorcerers and bards take years to learn spells. And these are people with exceptional casting stats in the 15-18 range, not average joes with 10 and 11 stats.

>>50019122
The ratio of finger wigglers is directly proprtionate inverse to chance in percentage of blowing oneself up learning the art.

>>50019122

A level one wizard isn't someone who picked up a staff and decided to be a wizard. A level one wizard has spent years learning and practicing. Even after those years of study, a level one wizard is only able to cast a few very low level spells.

The average person can't just watch someone cast a spell and learn it himself; that's not remotely how magic works in any setting I've seen. Moreover, the average person is lacking in intelligence to even learn much magic, even after years of study. In D&D you require an INT of 10 plus the level of spell you want to cast. 10 is the INT an average person would have, so they'd be able to cast level 0 spells only. Not much pay off for years of study, if you ask me.

So no, there's not a 90% chance my setting works like that. I doubt there's even a 5% chance that any particular setting works like that.

>>50019122
Most people don't have the knack. A vast percentage of the population does, in fact, have a few cantrips up their sleeve though.

>>50020607

Right. At most, low level spells and cantrips aid commonfolk, it doesn't help raise them economically or anything. 3rd, 4th level spells and above are the ones that will really make a difference, and by the time any wizard, cleric, or druid is at that level they'll be doing more adventuresome things than 'going from farm to farm casting shit'

>>50019122
>>Magic is a known phenomena
Yep. So is the night, the sea, and winter.
All can sometimes kill and are feared by some.

>>Has innumerable powerful and practical uses
Yep. Not that everyone knows them all, or even a fraction.

>>Teachings and learning resources are not kept secret
Yep. See below

>>There is little danger in practicing magic
Yep, well, no more than exercising any other power, which is what I assume you meant

>>Anyone of average intelligence is able to learn it
Yep.

>>Less than 5% of the population practice it
Not sure where you're getting that.
Less than 5% master it maybe.
Every little podunk has that one witch or healer that can cast a couple spells and knows a smattering of lore.
They're not keeping things secret, but neither are they starting up Hogwarts.
The true masters have their own concerns to tend to and are far too busy to consolidate and dispense knowledge.
Knowledge passes from master to apprentice like everything else.
The world is full of many mysteries.
The length and breadth of magic is merely one aspect of that mystery.

>>50020340
>>Teachings and learning resources are not kept secret
>Eh...you have to go to a school or get a teacher. It's not like there's a library with "Magic 101 for idiots" books. Also, learning is not free nigga.
>>50019382
>>>Teachings and learning resources are not kept secret
>Yes and no. It's hard as shit to mass-produce books on magic, and most magic-users aren't intent on simply giving away the knowledge that keeps them in business. Technically, it's not secret, but it's as good as given that you need to have a shit-ton of books to start and years to spend practicing.
These guys get it.

>>50019443
>Tfw my NG Wizard does just that.

>>50019139
>>50019140
>literally 00:00:01 seconds apart

Never change, /tg/

Racism.
Family bias- why teach some other rube a good moneymaking trade? We want the future to look like us, not the ugly neighbors.
Apathy- why should the wizard who needs nobody employ treacherous rubes that may steal or subvert their freedom?
Royalty- The wealthy and the noble, those in power by the sword and by the legitimate use of force have no interest in their peasants being able to resist, and so have no interest in teach the family whom the spoiled son of the Duke wants to rob for the virginity of their beautiful daughter how to lob explosive casks through their stone armored walls.

There is always an inherent danger in teaching any idiot how to light fires without being taught how NOT to light them. Distractions and manipulations so the public don't subvert institutions of power and control are class warfare made manifest.

Keeping peasants and shit-shovelers breeding, but not too much. Stupid, but not too much. Busy, but not too much. Productive, but not too much. That is the sweet spot. Teaching anyone magic for free would be.. inconvenient.

>>50019122
It takes a ridiculous amount of time to learn to do it properly. Like 10+ years. Elves aren't innately magic, they just have a lot of time to study and many have learned multiple schools. This magical literacy makes the quality of living in their city centuries ahead of other societies, who in turn have a lot of disdain towards the smug fuckers. Goblins are particularly pissed, because their lives are too short to spend any time learning magic.

>>50019122
Not my setting, presumptious asshole, so fuck off

>>50019240
go learn to play a guitar then come back and type with bleeding fingers you fuck

>>50019122
In Hackmaster 4E (my system of preference), there's a sizable chance of spell mishap unless your intelligence is notably above average. So while most of the population can learn it, it would be very dangerous for them to actually use it due to the risk of spell mishap.

Furthermore, the usage of magic takes many years of study and that only allows you to cast cantrips and such. Not exactly a lucrative or enticing endeavor for most people, especially when you consider those same smart and well educated people have no shortage of other job opportunities.

>>50019122

For the same reason a similar amount of the modern population knows programming, functional engineering or medicine. Because it's pretty complicated, requires a massive amount of time to get something useful out of it and not everybody has the surplus of time/resources to engage in studies?

>>50019122
There is a 90% chance your assumption is wrong, cunt.

>>50019122
If everyone was wizards, no one would be.

>>50019812
Every single person I've mentioned I have a Samsung phone asks me if I have the ones that explode.

It's not like the things have taken down a plane or something.

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Okay. I'll bite. If magic is a known phenomenon, then as are all of the failures and biases as well. Mages who need to be licensed and tested for proficiency and morality. The backlashes and failure of magics creating abominations, accidents, and random people becoming monsters. Reaching into places where you weren't meant to go by desperately summoning things or trying to conjure something and screwing up.

So yeah, 5% of the population might be certified to freely use magic because at least they can be controlled, watched, funded, and dealt with if they screw up. They've been educated and have had it drilled into them to habitually or ritualistically use their talent properly. Everyone else can just dabble.

Because contrary to what you think, magic is dangerous as hell. We've had fire for eons and yet we still burn down buildings, forests, cities and occasionally destroy whole regions with it despite countermeasures. And fire can't circumvent cause and effect like magic can.

>>50019122
That's not how my setting works, so I don't have to explain things to an idiot who can't actually comprehend what the basic reasoning of many worlds that do work like that is, since all of them are more than adequately described in their various lore books that OP can't be bothered to read because, as mentioned before, he is an idiot.

>>50019122
I find it stupid that the use of magic is tied to mental stats, especially intelligence. It has nothing to do with being smart. You're just wiggling your fingers and mumbling for every spell, why does knowing more math and history give fireballs more OOMPH? Plus, tying casting to mental stats devalues the actual effects of those stats (crafting, knowledge, awareness, medicine, diplomacy, ect. ect.) and causes them to be relegated to basic skill checks instead of something that stand on their own. People rarely raise their mental stats when they're not using some kind of magic.
However, this thread doesn't seem to be about mechanics, it's about settings. So! In my setting, you need to have innate magical power to cast spells at all. Study and effort is just a way of channeling it.

>>50019122
>Magic is a known phenomena (Why plural?)
This is true for one of my settings, yes.
>Has innumerable powerful and practical uses
Somewhat, yeah. It offers alternative ways to deal with problems but it's not a leisure.
>Teachings and learning resources are not kept secret
They are in my setting. If magic resources are commonplace, magic becomes plain.
Wizards give away their tools on the deathbed (willingly or unwillingly), in a trade of some sorts, or as a gift.
>There is little danger in practicing magic
Another boring setting characteristic. At the very least, magic should draw attention.
>Anyone of average intelligence is able to learn it.
Even another boring setting characteristic. Magic is not mathematics.

Also, of the 50+ games I've partaken in, none are like what you've described. In most of them, magic has been known to exist, but hardly understood. Magic users can be found once in a while, but they don't have schools etc.
In a few settings, magic is commonplace.
In almost all settings (spare 3-5, perhaps) magic has existed.

>>50019240
Bards have literally no magical knowledge. They just sing, tell stories, and play instruments.

>>50019122
The majority of people in most of my settings use lesser magic on a day to day basis, unless they are pious or devout worshippers of anti-magic deities, or just overall don't "trust" magic. People generally just use things like Create Water to consistently keep drinking or water plants or put out fires, others may use Tinder to light a campfire or spark a torch. Extremely advanced level magic is generally something that's insanely taxing, and as such only those who are constantly using it would ever bother with it, and out of those people, there are only a few that consider nuclear holocausts and raising entire cemeteries to be "worth" casting, considering they are so ridiculously exhausting to cast that they are just plain inefficient.

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>>50023071
>giving scientists, noncombatants, and a 12 year old the rank of Major.

>>50019122
It's usually because you need a Teacher to show you even the basics.

That said, I despise D&D Wizards and Vancian Magic.

>>50019122
>Only those who can comprehend the reality of what we experience is a four dimensional shadow of infinitely dimensioned reactions can ever even possibly do magic
>This means that magic is constrained to those who are willing to disbelieve everything they experience as objectively false and unreal are magic users
>Magic takes understanding the manipulation of forces and objects in the true reality of infinite dimensions to alter the shadow reality we experience
>This means only extremely intelligent can ever do magic
>It's also very easy to accidentally unmake yourself if you're not careful about manipulation these things
>Certain procedures can forcibly open your mind to the fact that you're living in a false reality that's a shadow cast by the true reality
>Very dangerous and often leave the subject completely insane or extremely suicidal
>Some objects have properties that have been woven into them which allow for minor manipulation of the true reality even by those who don't understand what's really going on
>This is how most "wizards" practice magic
>They gather up as many of these artifacts created by insane genii and use their powers to "cast"
> Most don't even know what the hell they're doing

That's the way magic works in my setting

>>50019191
>bakers never throw up the occasionally archbaker.

They do, they become megacorporations.

>>50019122

>math is a known subject
>Has innumerable powerful and practical uses
>Teachings and learning resources are not kept secret
>There is little danger in practicing math
>Anyone of average intelligence is able to learn math

>Less than 5% of the population actually use math to calculate new prices during sales

>Anyone of average intelligence is able to learn it
I'm pretty sure there are almost no settings where this is actually true if you look at the fluff rather than going just "oh, you need intelligence of 11 to cast first level spells, that means anyone with int of 11 or higher can learn magic."

>>50019314
>That doesn't make sense.
Harry Potter.

>>50023634
Elder Scrolls. People in that setting often know minor spells instinctively.

>>50023667
I did say almost. Elder Scrolls and Glorantha are notable exceptions and I'm sure there are a few others.

In my setting, natural selection resulted in the non-sorceror bloodlines being largely eliminated thousands of years ago because being able to shit magic out of your hands with even the smallest amount of training makes you dramatically better at literally all jobs, resulting in incredibly fecundity and breeding prospects.

Nowadays the underclass are the descendants of those who once sullied their gift by consorting with those who didn't have magic, and thus have LESS magical ability than the average person. Noone has none though, since if you are born with no ability at all you are literally worth more to society as a cache of raw meat than as a source of labour and someone will eventually get around to killing you to prevent you from being a drain on the community.

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>>50023100
>You're just wiggling your fingers and mumbling for every spell
No, you aren't.

You are invoking the names of the Fire Demon
(Gyathuzakix), the God of Fire (Arjunithophar), the word to bind elemental forces to your will (Fazaithanicanti), the word to prevent backlash from use of elemental forces (Zamifashi), the formula to invoke enough Fire to Ignite a Small Fire (Minimus Ignitive Contapulatio).

At the same time you are making the gesture of Containment of Power, Instantaneous Release of Power, and the Shifting of Material to Energy.

That's the Cantrip "Spark", used to ignite a small flammable object. You must use those words and those gestures every single time you wish to use this spell, and you must do them exactly the same EVERY SINGLE TIME. Remember, it takes 6 seconds to complete a spell with a one round casting time spell like a cantrip of Spark, and you are doing something that entire time, and to repeat it you must do the EXACT SAME THING EVERY TIME.

That is how wizardry works. That is your first cantrip. Now we will move on to a more complex operation, casting a 1st level spell called Shield....

And that's why you need intelligence as a casting stat. Charisma is even worse, because those nonsensical words and meaningless gestures mean something to THAT PARTICULAR sorcerer.

Good luck convincing anyone everyone can learn magic now.

>>50019122
Not 5%. Much more. Though magic is also not so powerful even if very useful. But let's say every military has at least 1 mage per 10 soldiers and of those ten at least 2-3 know some magical tricks. But ten wizards will lose to ten warriors of the same skill. They are not fast enough with powerful effects and need to concentrate on knowledges and mental training instead of physical abilities.

Also high level warriors are basically magic too. Their prowess comes from the same source (well everything comes from the same source) and they can pelt ten enemies with arrows in a second or cleave through a wall.

All countries have mage guilds or other organizations that get paid for magical work. And every last king has a couple of wizards that work for his security. Most nobles have an expirienced mage on hand or dabble in magic themselves.

But magic stops somewhere around 3-4 level of DnD spells with some exceptions that most of the time need multiple wizards to achieve. Creating permanent effects also literally takes life out of a mage and puts it into a spell and you can't ever take it back.

>>50019314
>Why can't they just ask him to teach them the thing? Explain

If you were a wizard, would you
a) cast spells for the locals every time they needed them, for a fee, thus ensuring a steady income
or
b) teach them to cast those spells themselves and thus put yourself out of a job?

(Hint: Next time you need an electrician or plumber, why not ask them to teach you how to do their job, rather than fixing it for the agreed fee, see how that pans out)

>>50020336
>in many countries
In mine, we call those people the IRS.

>>50019897
Anyone can become a minstrel or troubadour, but bards, real bards whose music can weave magic as easily as sound a real rarity. Many have some sort of fey bloodline. All of them learn their trade at one of the great bardic colleges, where only the most talented are initiated into the Orphean mysteries. Naturally, attending one of these colleges requires money and the free time to have already developed one's talent to an acceptable level. This means nobility, the wealthy middle classes or maybe lower middle class, provided they have a noble patron who is prepared to sponsor them...

>>50023655
Hagrid
>>50023866
The irs doesn't bring the military to your door, sieze half your crops, then sell them on the open market for 10 times the price.

>>50023100
Except you aren't. Assuming Vancian magic:
Step 1: Read your spell book and understand the arcane phrasing within. A written spell is not a recipe, it's more like a non-linear, non-homogenous PDE that you have to not just solve, but visualise in your mind in perfect clarity.
Step 2: Having memorised one or more spells you can then cast it. The wiggly fingers, funny words etc are mnemonics, tied directly to that spell that aid in the recall of that perfect solution that you memorised last night which then lets you cast the spell

That's why you need INT out the wazoo to cast spells, because wrapping your brain around things like that is really hard

>>50019122
You will, in your entire life, do embarrassingly few of the many things you are "able" to do. No one can do it all, and most would prefer to do other things.

>>50019122
because that shit takes a long time to learn

>>50020607
>god chosen clerics
fuck that noise.

>>50023921
Nature magic requires learning the semi-forgotten ways of old and becoming intuned with nature.

And then there are a lot of classes where you can't study into it at all, you just have to get luck.
Sorcerers have to have the right ancestry.

To continue down the list of, say pathfinder classes we see that trend continue.
Oracles have to be chosen by a god.
Witches need to be chosen by a patron.
Summoners have to find an eidolon willing to bind to them.
Spiritualists too.

The closes things to available to literally everyone with just a bit of training would be the occult classes Medium and Psychic, the former just having to let random spirits posses them and have enough force of will to not let them fully take control, and the latter only requiring you be sentient to be elligible, and having like, 12 different approaches to how you unlock it, with some being chance-based or requiring myriad studying, but others having entry methods as simple as "teach yourself to lucid dream," "learn to meditate for a peaceful mind," or "take hallucinogens."

>>50019192
Depends on the setting.
>>50019122
Also, fuck you.

Goodbye and have a shit day.

>>50019139
Very low.
Education systems, tuition or housing feeds, other career paths, and sheer length to get into Uni to become a scientist is a very strong filter.

>>50019149
Also this.
Unless magical is natural so that you breath magic, there is a entry barrier in terms of spending time to learn it.
And even if magic is entry level, it will apply to higher level concepts.

>>50019917
underrated tbqh

>>50019122
Whenever I create a campaign all magic-users are explained using some combination of the following.
-Magic is a born-in talent, with likelihood dependent on race and geographic location (i.e. living next to a graveyard containing the bodies of dozens of wizards increases the likelihood to be born magic by some small percentage).
-The secrets of learning magic are held by small cabals of practitioners who keep it to themselves so they can levy their power to exert disproportionate influence over political bodies, or even act as a ruling oligarchy themselves.
-They come from a far-off land where it is more common, and no, they totally aren't going to share because of [bullshit cultural reason] and they won't tell you how to get to their homeland because [bullshit cultural reason].
-They are an Elf / gnome / fairie / [other mystical race], and they don't like to share because they're selfish / don't want the 'lesser' races to hurt themselves / fuck you, that's why, I'm an Elf, I don't gotta explain shit.
-They simply don't want to tell anyone because doing so would create competition / potential enemies (i.e. a sorceress queen who uses her powers as proof of her divine right to rule is not going to want to teach that to anyone since that may well be creating a potential threat to her power).

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>>50019122
To be effective in most editions of D&D, a wizard must have an INT of at least 18, thouh 20 is preferable for that sweet +5 modifier. This is significantly higher than the average, which is 10.

An INT18 person, by that comparison, would have an IQ in the 200s.

So no, people of average intelligence are not able to practice magic in most of the setting people here will be using, unless they draw from a source that doesn't require study and smarts.

>>50024564
>An INT18 person, by that comparison, would have an IQ in the 200s.
This is just plain wrong.

>>50024590
The average is what, 115-129?

If this is represented by 10, then 18 is indeed 200 or above.

Not that the average PC ever acts like it.

>>50024618
So you're just saying things because you have no idea how IQ actually works. Ok. The average IQ is defined as being exactly 100. If we assume that every point of intelligence is worth 10 IQ points, 18 int would be IQ 180. If we go by standard deviation and assume 3d6 stat generation for non-exceptional individuals, 18 intelligence would be about IQ 130. Either way, IQ 200 for 18 int is BLATANTLY wrong.

>>50024590
Depending on what you define as the average IQ, 18 would be somewhere in the area of 190 to 210. So not necessarily in the 200s, but that's where higher estimates would put it, and 190 is ridiculously far above the average.

With that in mind, think for a second about how smart the INT 20 wizard your average scrub builds would be.

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>>50023741
>rote memorization
>something not anyone can do

>>50019122
>>Teachings and learning resources are not kept secret
>>There is little danger in practicing magic
>>Anyone of average intelligence is able to learn it
If any of these are true, your setting is immediately shit.

>>50024649
>If we assume that every point of intelligence is worth 10 IQ points
That's not how it works and you know it.

>>50024590
>The average IQ is defined as being exactly 100.

Lel, finding two experts who agree on precisely what should be considered the average IQ is like trying to milk a stone.

>3d6 stat generation for non-exceptional individuals

Puts average human intelligence at 10.5. Even by your definition, an INT of 18 would be way over 130 IQ.

>>50024706
meant for
>>50024649

>>50024706
>Lel, finding two experts who agree on precisely what should be considered the average IQ is like trying to milk a stone.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient
It. Is. Literally. Part of the fucking definition, retard.

>>50024661
>rote memorization of entire dictionaries of hard to pronounce words, many in tongues not spoken natively to the plane
>rote memorization of thousands of gestures and mystic passes
>purchasing spellbooks to write your notes in
>purchasing pounds of spell components because every time you do a spell wrong (because you'll do hundreds of them wrong in the effort of learning them) you waste the components for that spell
That's the basic realistic stuff.

And worse is that you could have a dick of a teacher:
>pop quiz is being forced to manage the spell while your teacher summons a monster to beat you senseless
>forced to learn how to concentrate by maintaining meditation with succubi dancing in front of you
>trying to gather mystic energy for spell cating while sitting in a downpour
>forced to copy the entire spell book in seven different languages

>>50024717
You realize that the word 'average' does not just refer to a raw median, right?

>>50024661
Rote memorization of stuff that you must not even slightly fuck up is a lot harder than rote memorization.

>>50024737
The median and the mean are the same, due to how the scores are defined.

>>50024661
It actually isn't.

Rote memorization of complex subjects and instantaneous ability to recall their intricacies is something a lot of people cannot do very well. The ability to use these memorized facts to construct new methodologies on the fly is even rarer.

>>50019122
It doesn't

>Magic is a know phenomena
>Has very limited usage as it's fucking hard
>teaching and learning resources are not a kept secret but they're fucking hard
>There's little danger in practicing magic, but it's smothered in bureaucracy
>Anyone of average intelligence can learn it

>Less than 5% of the population practice it because it's costly

Explain YOURSELF

>>50024649
I usually just use Rifts beyond the supernatural I.Q. Score listings, which actually does go by tens for each point in int(IQ). So a guy with a 20 in IQ would have a 200 IQ and you party's muscle with a 7 IQ is borderline retarded with a score of 70

>>50019240
Bards go to colleges.

>>50020220
>Magic is a known pneumonia
Maybe that explains it, you have to become potentially deathly ill in order to learn it, and it you fail you cough yourself to death as your lungs full with fluid

And the aftereffects of pneumonia explain why wizards are so weak because of permanent lung damage!

>>50019122
>>50019192
>>50019314
Okay virt, here's a (You). Now please go away.

http://tao-dnd.blogspot.ca/2014/01/so-sick-of-if.html

>>50019122
I run in Eberron. I am the 10%.

>>50019122
All magic in my setting is technically "divine" since all of it comes from using the powers of one of the 4 gods just more or less without that god knowing or caring. Because of this its also to powerful to use for the common man 1/4th of the year and way to weak for the common man to use 1/4th of the year since the year is split into 4ths and each god controls one fourth. When the god whose magic your using comes into power your fireball now could become so powerful it could destroy a castle. If the opposite god comes into power well now your fireball is barely strong enough to light a candle.

All this with the inherit unreliability of the magic since spells can just not work based on things unknowable to the races make magic something only a few have the patients and drive to learn.

>>50023071

That's some damn good english for an anime.

>>50024564
Effective in combat sure.
Effective as a village utility hedgemage? Don't need to make save dcs, so enough to cast is all you need. For cantrips, that's 10. For 1st level spells it's 11.

>>50019122
>There is a 90% chance this is how your setting works. Explain yourself.
No need to explain myself because it doesn't.

Mostly due to one reason you didn't mention:
>requires dedication, effort, hard work, personal sacrifice
Random schmuck needs to spend years of disciplined apprenticeship, either under a master who may not be too lenient or friendly or on one's own - still requiring as much discipline and dedication in regular practices and study as master would demand to achieve any effects in timely fashion.

Many people (even IRL) don't even have will to swear off unhealthy fast food, live healthily, maintain great physical health through regular regiment of exercise, diet, lifestyle. Many people in most fantasy settings are people with same shortcomings and unwilling to go with it if the situation doesn't force them to (no money to eat if not working etc), with exceptions being, well, exceptional rather than commoners.

If restrictive lifestyle around that level (even if not the same way) is an absolute minimum for even starting to achieve some powers, while suffering in many other areas and having far less fun out of it, it doesn't surprise me that most people have little of will to go with it from beginning to end (and the end probably is never really there since in many settings a spellcaster has to constantly maintain and hone his mind and command over spiritual powers).

>>50019122
My setting is a sci-fi setting with no magic. So no, my setting is in the 10% that doesn't work like what you say. You lose.

>>50019122
Most Settings are in a Quasi-medieval setting. A time where 95% of people did not know how to read. You're an idiot for thinking they should all know magic,

>>50019122

>Engineering is a known phenomena
>Has innumerable powerful and practical uses
>Teachings and learnings are not kept secret
>There is little danger is learning engineering
>Anyone of average intelligence is able to learn it

>Less than 5% of the population practice it

There is a 90% chance this is how your setting works. Explain yourself.

>>50026887
Only 20% of the population is able to use 'engineering' because it's based off of the genesis loci of the place you were born.
In addition, there is an innate cap to most peoples abilities in 'engineering', with a significant majority of the population only able to do the most basic things.

>>50019266
>Learning STEM to any serious degree takes at least 4 years of dedicated study at a college and tens of thousands of dollars of debt.
Same could easily be true of magic.
>Learning magic requires reading ancient magical tomes, practicing spells, and memorizing the spells you are practicing (unless you plan to dig through a book in the middle of a battle every time you want to cast a spell)
>The only real place to get these tomes and the resources to practice is at magic colleges
>Magic colleges cost massive amounts of money and take years to graduate from
>Nobody can hire you for your magical ability if you didn't go to college
Just because you designed an entire boat or rifle or something from scratch doesn't mean a company will or can hire you as an engineer. The same could easily be true of magic, just because you can pull off high level spells doesn't mean they will or can hire you for magic stuff.

>>50019122
Even a level 1 character, someone who can cast just a single level 1 spell, is a rarity. Magic isn't always dangerous or secret, but it's really goddamn hard. PCs are freaks that learn five hundred years worth of magic lessons in a couple months.

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>>50019314
>Why can't they just ask him to teach them the thing? Explain.
Here. >>50023741

But here's a better example.

In a clear and audible speaking voice, say Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious three times in the exact same cadence over the course of six seconds while making a circle with your hand that is exactly 11 inches across three times, with the beginning of the circle starting with the first 'S' and the end of the circle occurring at the end of the last 'S'

This is the actual mechanical replication of casting a spell in 3.PF - and verbal and somatic components that takes 6 seconds to finish and can potentially be interrupted.

You must do this exactly the same each time, and you must do this ritual every time you want to cast Prestidigitation. When you can do that and do it perfectly each time, you may then start work on your SECOND cantrip.

You have to learn all the 11 cantrips, and then you may move on to 1st level spells, which will be considerably more complex. For instance, you must SAY - not recite but actually pronounce - ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ and then ZYWVUTSRQPONMLKJIHGFEDCBA in succession without skipping any sounds or letters, while rubbing a pinch of soot and salt agaisnt the meat of your palm with your middle and ring fingers while twirling your thumb in a clockwise rotation using your right hand. If you fail to do so properly the spell will fail and you will waste those components and must start from scratch. You may expect to have salt blisters on your palm by the end of the day. This will let you cast Comprehend Languages. Mind you, you must have a full 8 hours of sleep beforehand, and you must have studied the tome that your notes are in for 20 minutes before hand. If you have failed to study properly, you must restudy before you can try again. Once you have succeeded you will need to rest for 8 hours before you may attempt to cast it again.

That is learning magic.

>>50019314
>A healing spell increases your effective lifespan by preventing you from dying to infections caused by minor injuries.
If we're talking D&D, all the good healing spells are exclusive to Clerics, whose magic is granted directly by the gods and cannot be simply learned or taught.

>>50019122
How I work mine

>People know about it, but most commoners go their entire lives without seeing it. Some don't even believe in it.
>Depends on the wizard. Many just learn its practical uses, but some are trained as war-mages.
>Basic ass shit is not super secret, but most of it is hoarded by colleges. It's a competitive field.
>Pushing yourself is very dangerous and can result in horrific accidents involving fire, turning inside-out, and sometimes tentacles.
>Naw. You don't have to be a super-genius to learn the simple things, but you have to be fairly educated.

>More like less than 0.05%

This of course only covers wizards. All other magic-users are just about as uncommon.

What's with all the comparisons between Engineering and Magic. they aren't even remotely close in usefulness. Engineering is only really useful as a job. there are very few situations in regular life where you'll need those skills.
Magic on the other side?
Get attacked by thugs? MAGIC
Lost in the wilderness? MAGIC
House on fire? MAGIC
Can't find your keys? MAGIC

>>50027367
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNgNBsCI4EA

>>50019122

My setting is based on folklore and video games in a combination, and as such more then 5% of the population practices magic, but it's the really subtle luck-bending stuff. Protective charms to ward off spirits, writing prayers over doors, flicking special oils onto a baby's brow to keep it from having its 'growth' stolen by a goblin, and so on. All of these work, but they are subtle and in the background, so they aren't Wizard flashy.

Then you have actual Wizards who spend mana points and cast explosive boom-boom spells, which takes many years of training and has at least a partially genetic and education requirement. Every spellbook is hand written, so resources are very limited.

>>50027525
Hahaha Engineering am i right? xdxdxdxddx

>>50027367
>Get attacked by thugs? GUN
>Lost in the wilderness? GPS
>House on fire? SPRINKLERS
>Can't find your keys? KEY FINDER
All this shit wasn't designed by nature

>>50027868
Sure, but you can't build a gun on the fly while being attacked.

Engineering is like magic scroll scribing and artifice at best.

>>50028111
How many times can you use a scroll again?

>>50019122
The Elder Scrolls series.

NEXT QUESTION!

>>50027868
None of those things need any kind of Engineering skill to use. Which is why you don't see all that many Engineers IRL.

>>50027868
>implying Gun is not gift of primordial force know to mankind as /k/ube
We did not invent the gun, we merely discovered it.

>>50019122
I think I'm decent about that. In mine, humans can't naturally use magic, or at least not without really fucking themselves up. Using magic requires some sort of energy/life-source, and if you can't use something as a catalyst (which humans are just not capable of even doing on their own without the aid of certain magical devices or tools) then the necessary energy will most likely be drawn from your blood. You can do it, sure, but you're basically burning away your own blood, and in significant enough quantity I'm sure I don't need to say that it will kill you.

Though even using it at all, catalyst or no catalyst, requires tremendous focus and mental strength. It's more Willpower or Wisdom (in the D&D sense) than Intelligence, but Intelligence is also necessary for the proper use of a device and preparation of a catalyst (along with even more Willpower to align the device, and the focused magic, with the catalyst).

>>50028131
Seven.

>>50019457
But if you do learn magic without going to UU, Archchancellor Ridcully will probably lecture you with a stern fireball to the face.

>>50028131
One. Just like any non-revolving pistol.

For a larger clip size, use wands.

>>50028466
Ban high-capacity assault magic-missile wands.

>>50028466
And what happens once you use all the charges in a wand or use the scroll once?

>>50028183
>None of those things need any kind of Engineering skill to use
You need to maintain and clean a gun. Disassembly and reassembly of an intricate weapon requires at least some engineering knowledge.

>>50019564
Such a good post and yet no replies. Don't worry Anon, I agree with you.

>>50019191
>bakers never throw up the occasionally archbaker.
This reminds me of that candy maker guy from Gummi Bears.

>>50019122
...Anonymous
10/29/16(Sat)20:34:55 No.50019122
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>Castles are a known phenomena
>Has innumerable powerful and practical uses
>Tools and resources are not kept secret
>There is little danger in building castles
>Anyone of average intelligence is able to build it

>Less than 5% of the population live in a castle

There is a 90% chance this is how your setting works. Explain yourself.

>>50019457
>>50019472
Well, alright, khan university exists. You can learn practically anything now for free.

Why aren't you traveling around doing odd jobs with chemistry and programming?

>>50028478
It goes back to being an unloaded, useless sheet of parchment/stick. Much like a gun becomes a useless clockwork paperweight while unloaded.

>>50028536
New here?

>>50028586
And what does it take and how much it costs to make them something more than a glorified shit paper and a dildo?

>>50028599
Nah, just too lazy to edit it. Also on my phone so I don't catch that much.

>>50020524
Well, sure, but you can't exactly force it on another user, can you?

>>50019122
The God of Magic is an arrogant prick who doesn't think humanity deserves magic, but was forced by the rest of the pantheon to give them the ability. So he hid it in the earth's depths as a sap in a metal that pushes away all matter that comes to it, and made a very extensive code for what alchemical ingredient (everything in the world is an alchemical ingredient) does what (the limitless extent of magic is largely covered, he'll find out the rest when someone gets there).

Magic costs either money or strenuous and precise channeling dances. You need to know exactly what you're doing, and doing the wrong thing puts you on a pedestal where the God of Magic strokes his chin and wonders if he should cancel the spell you made for your safety and/or to let you know you did what you wanted to do incorrectly and you should try again, or let it happen as punishment for your being shit at magic. He often chooses the latter, especially if it's in places where the former would make more sense. This relies people to trust themselves rather than the strange chemistry of the Gods, which is in a roundabout way what the Gods wanted them to do.

>>50028781
Hacking nigga.
Plant it and hit run. Beat his spell res-antivirus.

>>50028612
You buy it with money. Like bullets.
And the more powerful the effect on a target, the more expensive it tends to be, like bullets.

>>50028967
>the more powerful the effect on a target, the more expensive it tends to be, like bullets.
Last time I checked 9mm and .45 cost about the same

What if it's because you have to register with the court as a magic user?

Damn ariostos tryna take away muh magics I KNOW MY RIGHTS

>computer programming is a known phenomenon
>has innumerable powerful and practical uses
>teachings and learning resources are not kept secret
>there is little danger in practicing programming
>anyone of average intelligence is able to learn it

>less than 5% of the population practice it

Complex disciplines are often not widely practiced despite accessibility and utility. Sometimes the reasons are economic, such as the inability to afford professional instruction. This becomes even more pronounced in a pre-Information Age setting. If you can't afford to be taught, and you can't get to a decent library in a proper city to teach yourself, you're fucked.

Other times it's really just more than the student will put up with. Getting back to our analogy, writing your first "Hello World" program is easy as pissing if you really try, but if you just take a blind stab at it fuckall's gonna happen. And good bloody luck trying to explain it to somebody else who isn't interested, whether or not they're smart enough to get it.

And there are social factors, which also ties in neatly to the analogy. How many people do you think are turned off of programming by the image of pocket protector-wearing nerdlingers who last saw a vagina when they were coming out of it? Probably a proportionally similar number to the ones turned off of magic by the image of lonely scholars in a cold tower whose eyes are going shitty from all the dim candlelight.

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>>50019122
Magic, to an extent, resembles science in my setting, in that it is a 'known phenomena', but not WHOLLY known, and it would take a lot of time, money, and expertise to go beyond the theoretical upper limits.
Much like how an ordinary person could repair a bicycle, but it takes a team of PHDs and a few million dollars to run a LHC or whatever.

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>>50029456
Furthermore, magic is divided into 3 broad categories, each with their own sub-disciplines:

>Divine Magic
The channelling of magic from an extra-planar source, including gods, spirits, demons, and eldritch beings. This is the magic used by Clerics, Paladins, Warlocks, etc

>Natural or Wild Magic
That which draws upon the latent magic within the world, such as that in nature, or which occurs as a 'mutation' within certain people.
This encompasses the magic of Druids, Psions, and Sorcerers, as well as Monks (Chi).

>Arcane or 'Practical' Magic
Magic that requires only study, practise, and occasionally components. Technically """anyone""" could learn, assuming they have the time, money, and aptitude, and most folk do not. Fewer still pursue beyond common cantrips, such as light, or prestidigitation.
Includes all Wizardry, as well as the Bardic magics.

>>50019192
SOUNDS LIKE SOMEONE NEEDS TO READ HIS GOD DAMN SICP

https://youtube.com/watch?v=2Op3QLzMgSY

>>50024081
What the fuck else is a cleric going to be?

>>50019122

In mine, being a decent magician is about equivalent to being a PhD. It's not easy, it takes a lot of time and work, and you have to specialize. Getting good at doing something with magic has almost no bearing on your ability to do anything else with magic. So for most people, it's just not an economically sound decision to develop magically.

>>50019122
>Magic is a known phenomena
No?
>Has innumerable powerful and practical uses
Sure
>Teachings and learning resources are not kept secret
Not intentional kept secret. See point #1
>There is little danger in practicing magic
Haha, What? No.
>Anyone of average intelligence is able to learn it
Yes no. Time and effort. The smarter you are, the faster you can pick it up. OR you can pour years of time and your life learning it.
>Less than 5% of the population practice it
Iunno. Yeah about
>There is a 90% chance this is how your setting works. Explain yourself.
I explain myself by OP has some HUGE assumptions about everything apparently.

>Setting, D&D

>Player Rules != World Lore.
OP's first wrong assumption. ... ... I assume.

>>50019122
>>Has innumerable powerful and practical uses

Some of which are very difficult to do, and are effectively out of the reach of most magic users.

>Teachings and learning resources are not kept secret

They are not state secrets but they are viewed a source of wealth. Access to them is a heavily monetized subject. In a number of D&D setting the price was effectively 5 years of labor for school in magic during the same time. However your teacher is in no way likely to teach you everything he knows during that time. He will sell you the more powerful spells for a price when you have the money.

>Anyone of average intelligence is able to learn it

In 2nd ed to be a wizard you needed a 13 int. In 3x there was no min stat to be a wizard, and you could be a Cha user also. How you really would want at lest a 14 in your casting stat. 4d6 drop the lowest is for PC and other important characters. For other people it is 3d6 in order. Lets just say 14 in ANY one of the mental stats to be a caster. That gives us 48.51% of the total population. How many of those people have something better to do with their lifes? Run a business for example.

>>50019382
>Under 5e rules
I'm pretty sure that's under every editions rules, just nobody is a dumb enough retard outside of 2e to fucking try playing a wizard with less than 14 intelligence practically rather than as a "roleplaying challenge" or because the GM is the kind of asshole that thinks 3d6 straight is still and has always been viable in every version outside of OD&D blue box.

...that got away from me a bit.

>>50023263
Purely because they were good at magic, and military rank obligates them to do what the military says. It being major was to make it sound better to the alchemists/wizards than it was.

I liked FMA

>>50034036
don't forget
>copying a spell into your spellbook costs 100gp in magical inks per page
>a pig costs 3gp

for the cost of learning a single shitty 0th-level spell you could buy 33 fucking pigs and actually feed your pathetic peasant family

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>>50019122
>>Magic is a known phenomena
It isn't that well researched, though.
>>Has innumerable powerful and practical uses
That's correct.
>>Teachings and learning resources are not kept secret
Yes, they are just very hard to learn.
>>There is little danger in practicing magic
Wrong, you can easily kill yourself if you try to hop over your head (which is quite easy to do when you just started)
>>Anyone of average intelligence is able to learn it
Yes, but as I said, it's very hard and without inborn affinity you are going to have hard time without using old grimoires (expensive and not flexible), proper lab and magic circle (expensive and takes some space) and/or high mana zone (rare and might be dangerous). Prepare to spend years of practice to develop such talent. Oh and that's assuming you can at least afford relevant books or have someone willing to teach you.
>>Less than 5% of the population practice it
That's correct.
>Explain yourself.
Looks like I already did it.

>>50019122

>Anyone of average intelligence is able to learn it
Well with several years of constant practice as well as books to learn from. Most settings with magic are in pre-modern settings where widespread access to books may not exist. Even ignoring illiteracy, when books are hand written they are going to be expensive, so unless you are an aristocrat or wealthy merchant you won't ever have access to books to learn magic.

>>50028495
Not really, you just have to read manual. And if you are talking about full disassembly, most people never do it themselves because it's pain in the ass.

>>50019122
>>Magic is a known phenomena
Yep.
>>Has innumerable powerful and practical uses
Yep.
>>Teachings and learning resources are not kept secret
Yep.
>>There is little danger in practicing magic
Nope. If you *almost succeed* magic happens, but not the magic you wanted. Magic backlash is a thing.
>>Anyone of average intelligence is able to learn it
Yep.
>>Less than 5% of the population practice it
Nope. Probably more like 65-70%.

Odds are that guy with a sword and chainmail has at least some kind of magic knowledge.

>>50019122
You need to be of significantly above average intelligence and have plenty of spare time (hint: almost nobody has this) in order to learn and practice magic in any serious capacity.

What kind of ruler would let the ruled learn magic? If there's ANY forbidden knowledge in a setting, it's magic.
It's one thing if there's a democratic republic, but a monarch or feudal lord will make sure that he at least know about any potential magic users.

>>50019122
>Heterosexuality is a known phenomena
>OP still a faggot

Explain yourself.

>>50019122
>There is little danger in practicing magic
Because giving everyone a chance to practice magic will in no way backfire or become dangerous.

Magic takes a lot of time and dedication to learn, and even then it is expensive as fuck. (wizards gotta pay tax to be given the rights to cast spells above a menial level and if they don't the Gestapo geddem)
This is because magic is dangerous in pretty much anyone's hands.

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Yeah, anyone can learn the incantations and gestures required to cast a spell, and even be able to cast it if they're in an area of high-enough mana. But unless you have the inborn ability to sense and tap into the flows of mana, no amount of study will let you cast a spell in 99.x % of the world.

And in the time it takes to learn how to reliably create a flame as big as a match (and no other spells), you can learn the ins and outs of farming. Or masonry, blacksmithing, carpentry, lockpicking, architecture, engineering, chemistry, geology, cartography, tracking, cryptography, or erotic art (pic related).

The reason the vast majority of people don't know how to cast any spells is because, one: most people just plain can't cast a spell unless they're at an intersection of ley lines; and two: because it takes a lot of time - time that for most people is better spent putting food on the table - to learn a useful amount of magic unless you are intellectually brilliant, especially naturally gifted at magic, or both.

As always, if you aren't playing GURPS, ur doin it wrong.

>>50019122
>Magic is a known phenomena
It is

>Has innumerable powerful and practical uses
Mhm...


>Teachings and learning resources are not kept secret
This is where shit changes. Magic is heavily restricted to mages eyes only.


>There is little danger in practicing magic
No, it's pretty damn dangerous. Trained hands only kinda deal.

>Anyone of average intelligence is able to learn it
Also different. Incredible intelligence and strength is needed to control magic in my setting.

Certain barriers to entry exist to keep the dirt farmers from suddenly becoming archmages just because they found a magic artifact while they were tilling the ground.

GURPS does a decent job of this buy making players buy into things like literacy or magery.

Even if you've reached the point where magic is indistinguishable from science, there's no reason that average people could understand it.

If you want to see a mundane concept that confounds and defeats people on a regular basis, just look at how many people enroll in remedial math classes at your local community college.

>>50019139
>>50019140
>scientists are wizards
I'd study the shit out of STEM if it gave me magical powers. What a stupid argument.

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>>50042680
But anon, it does.

>>50042680
>>50045630
see >>50030274

>>50019122
Whoo! 10% baby!