How does a martial fight a dragon of this size without the dragon

>>49987503
A flying mount. A ballista with black iron arrows. A makeshift crossbow made out of a currently on-fire bell tower, a broken bow, his son, and a Nat 20.

>>49987503
Get asbestos armor, jump in its mouth, find the heart, stab it repeatedly, die to cancer after couple decades.

>>49987542
>A makeshift crossbow made out of a currently on-fire bell tower, a broken bow, his son, and a Nat 20.
I understood that reference. For those who don't: http://youtu.be/p5MyNFfh7Ns

>>49987605
>For those who don't
They should be considered the lucky ones, for they have not seen the abomination that is the Hobbit trilogy.

>>49987503
Make something up. If your party is creative, give them the victory. If they aren't, maybe have the dragon lose interest in them to prevent a party wipe. If you feel they need to learn the lesson, have the dragon be serious.

>>49987646
It was better than that with ratings over %90 in ever major movie reviewing site on each movie. You're the 1/10 who didn't like it.

>>49987701
>1/10
That would surprise me because I don't know anybody who likes it.

>>49987729
Different Anon. I liked it, or at least I liked the first two and Five Armies until the death of Smaug.

In particular I liked the expansion of Bard's character and the fact that the Arkenstone is an actual important plot point, rather than being mentioned for the very first time 75% of the way through the novel.

>>49987729
I liked it. The first two movies were great and so was the third, don't know why so many people harp about how many elves or dwarves or whatever were actually at the battle. Some things need to be lost in order to transfer into a proper medium.

>>49987750
>>49987796
Good thing I don't know you.

>>49987503
Climb on top and stab it in the eye/earhole until it dies.
And no, 'a guy with a sword' isn't expected to kill it. A guy with a sword, with buffs, healing, mage support, and some pretty good abilities of his own? Yes.

>>49987796
>about how many elves or dwarves or whatever were actually at the battle.
I wouldn't even bring that up if I were to make a list of flaws. But please don't make me write that list.

>>49987796
I disliked the Shai-Huluds, however.

>>49987503
>It knocks down buildings just by swinging its claw, but somehow every RPG expects a guy with a sword to be able to kill this thing?

Imagine an intelligent rat with a sword and some combat experience coming at you with the intent to kill and steal your change jar to become fantastically rich.

You'd be forgiven for thinking you could easily just swat the fucking thing and crush it or something, but underestimating it would be seriously stupid.

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>>49987503
>Using a sword

>>49987854
>Imagine an intelligent rat with a sword
While you are wearing mail armor and the rat is walking on its hind-legs because it has to be erect to use the sword and you have a real sword.
It doesn't fucking matter how much you underestimate the rat. The beast lacks the strength to puncture your gambeson underneath the mail, and a single half-assed swipe of your sword would be both undodgeable and lethal.

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>>49987821

>>49987900
Well, that's where the whole "fantasy" thing comes in, isn't it?

>>49987942
Right, I forgot about your firebreath.

>>49987900
It's a magic rat, with a magic sword.

>>49987942
Stop using "Fantasy" as a hand wave. Besides, that's not the point of the thread.

The point is how does it happen? If you and to explain the fight between the knight and the dragon in a believable fashion, how would it go down?

>>49987986
Does it have a name?

>>49987994
Rickey Rat

>>49987605
Oh god I'm so glad I stopped watching after the first movie, it was bad enough.

>>49988006
Not the rat, the sword. Of course the rat has a name.

>>49987986
Also, it's the chosen one. And fate has declared that it's destined to kill you, despite the odds.

>>49987994
The Rat? Or the Sword?

>>49988027
That IS the sword's name.

volley of arrows on wings when it's airborne.

when it comes down, you charge to it with your lance, think of Monster Hunter vidya.

>>49988027
Blackwand

>>49987900
>The beast lacks the strength to puncture your gambeson underneath the mail, and a single half-assed swipe of your sword would be both undodgeable and lethal.

Spoken like a person who's never tried to hit a rat with a sword.

>>49988070
A rat standing on two legs.

>>49987503
I'm running a pretty standard "kill the dragon campaign" And i'm planning on having one of several espionage missions being to shoot the dragons wings so it can't use itself to stop the force dedicated to stopping him,

>>49987992
Previous part of the campaign had you injure the dragons wings forcing it to retreat to it's lair where you go on to kill it with swords

>>49987854
Except rats move fast and humans don't.

>>49987503
Make it piss of a god

>>49987503
Maybe try poisoning the next sacrificial virgin you have to feed him.

>>49988229
Not nearly as impressive as having the barbarian dress up as a virgin, and then, once he's been swallowed, tear the dragon up from the inside.

>>49987503
Study the dragon's habits and habitat. Plan an ambush, and pour all your resources into this battle. Your chances of survival are 5%, but that 5% is what epic tales are all about.

Your first mistake was letting the dragon choose the battlefield. Retreat, save as many people as you can but do not try to confront the Dragon. It's impossible to stop a dragon on a rampage. Learn, you need to choose the location of your final battle carefully. Another city with enough ballistae to to blot out the sky, or a poisonous marsh with highly combustible gases could work for a suicide last stand.

Find some way to injure the dragon. Either a legendary sword of ages of yore or siege equipment if you are a poor peasant. Poison is unlikely to kill an adult dragon but it might hinder them if they are not immune to its effects.

The dragon can end you in less than a minute. Don't get hit. And the best way to not get hit is (besides hiring some poor sap to do the job instead) to not be seen. Stalk the beast, take potshots at it. Use fireworks to disorient it, poison his game with small doses of venom, use a system of strings to fire unmmaned ballistae at the beast to keep it from guessing your position, load up a garish caravan with gunpowder hire some minimum staff and tell them to transport that stuff through the dragon's territory. When the beast approaches, lit the fuse and run for the hills. It won't kill him but it might just give it a nasty wound that will take some time to heal. You aren't going to kill a dragon with just one day, let alone one encounter. Be prepared, it could take months or even a lifetime.

>>49988055
Heavy nets could pin it down for a round or two to charge but you are underestimating the dragon if you think a bunch of recruits with longbows can even hit-much less pierce- the dragon's hide. Ambush it while it's hunting for food.

>>49987503
Ancient peoples in canoes with bone weapons managed to hunt and kill whales.

Organized medieval humans could probably have killed dragons if they existed, just not without lots of trial and error (and casualties). Unless they were godzilla sized I suppose.

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The largest animals ever were hunted almost to extinction by men with spears. They weren't legendary heroes on an epic quest to save the world; it was just a job. They killed these things routinely.

Yes, the dragon has slightly tougher skin and breathes fire but that's what makes it something that is noteworthy to kill rather than a convenient source of lamp oil.

If it's a multiheaded dragon, get the heads into an argument.

With tactics besides standing in one place and stabbing its toes? A half dozen examples come to mind.
>Use seige machines from a recent war to wound the beast's wings, rendering it landbound.
>Nets or a unstable cliff side set to go off at the exact moment needed to trap the dragon under either.
>Fantastical Thor strength lets you make the jump checks required to jump up and deal massive damage to the dragon whenever he swoops by, dodging his breath attacks which he can't keep going forever and a dragon's pride prevents it from running from such a "puny human".
>Poison of some kind or chemical weapons delivered via barrel-through-mouth.
>Use your 9th level fighter's bonus perks of being in barge of an army and organize an attack that one man could never accomplish on his own.
>Work with the other 3-4 members of your party like you're supposed to in a shared story telling game.

You could always target its weak point for massive damage.

Anyone got image of Lauis stabbing the red dragon thoat?

>>49988297
Agreed. It all depends on the specifics of the dragon really. How big/tough/smart is it and does it breath fire and how often can it do that. Can it fly and if so for how long? What does it need to survive?

Most of these variables are unanswered or change based on setting so its hard to answer the question specifically.

If the dragon has skin similar to hardened steel plates it might be impossible to kill the thing with conventional medieval weapons. If it can fly it might be impossible to catch. If it never sleeps or eats it might be impossible to ambush. If its immune to poison you can't poison it, and if its smart you probably won't be able to bait it.

>>49988330
>>Fantastical Thor strength lets you make the jump checks
Just throw some spears at him.

>>49988297
>a convenient source of lamp oil.
I really like this idea.
I think I'm going to have some sort of sky-whalers hunt the settings dragons for cheap meat and leather.

Also: dragon scrimshaw.

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>>49988368
>I think I'm going to have some sort of sky-whalers hunt the settings dragons for cheap meat and leather.

The same people who translate Dungeon Meshi also translate a manga called "Kuutei Dragons".

The plot of said Manga is exactly what you just said: a team of Dragon Hunters in an air-ship floating around hunting dragons for oil, hides, & meat.

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When did dragons get so big? &! The old old stories the dragons were about the size of a horse.

But to answer your question, the magic sword would have to be the finisher. But otherwise with a dragon that large then it would need to be incapacitated in some one first before the deathblow with the blade.

>>49988494
>When did dragons get so big?
When people found more dinosaur skeletons.

>>49988330
I'm playing devils advocate for fun here to prove we kinda need a specific dragon to answer with specifics.

Seige machines were considered accurate if they could strike immobile buildings occasionally. A flying dragon is a completely different kind of target, and a siege engine and its crew being large and immobile is just about the most vulnerable thing I can think of to a dragon.

Nets burn and drops from high places shouldn't bother a flying dragon.

I'll ignore "superhero" humans as I'm not sure that is what the OP was looking for.

Poison. This seems to me the most likely response. Depending on how keen a dragon is poisoning may be very difficult, and depending on its senses may require special poisons that are tasteless/odorless. Then there is the dose size and logistics of delivery. You are going to need a lot of poison of a high quality and there likely isn't any data available on dragon metabolism. Also, this might simply not work if dragons are immune, or smart enough to immunize themselves. A very paranoid intelligence that has many enemies might possibly pursue immunity by slowly ratcheting up exposure.

I think a dragon against a conventional army would be heavily in the dragons favor. I think it would be like trying to fight a modern day jet fighter armed with napalm. I doubt arrows could ground a dragon, and I doubt lances of knights could wound it once on the ground but I bet a dragon could make matchsticks of entire regiments of people at once every flyby.

>>49988503
>a conventional army
Obviously. Our weapons were designed to fight humans, not monsters.
What kind of weapons could be used against dragons though?

>>49988503
>I'll ignore "superhero" humans as I'm not sure that is what the OP was looking for.
He's looking for people who have a chance of taking down a dragon single-handedly in a system where alone barbarian can kill lesser dragons 1d4 times per round.
>Dragons can immunize themselves against poison
Dragons aren't spellcasters.
>Army wouldn't work
I specifically said "Plans that no single man could accomplish", not "throw enough bodies at the problem until it goes away". These 6 plans were what I came up with in the time it took me to type it out. What sort of plans then could a dozen people with hours of research be able to plan out and the manpower to enact those plans?

>>49987503
If you're just standing in an open field waiting for your turn to attack, you're probably doing it wrong.

Remember what I said about spiky armor being stupid?
When you are fighting a dragon, you want as many spikes on your armor as you can fit on it.

>>49988572
You don't need to be a wizard to immunize yourself against some poisons like snake venom. You just ratchet up exposure very slowly. Its been done by a few people and you can google it.

I doubt any number of men could defeat a dragon of sufficient size/strength/int without special weapons or tactics as you point out.

I don't think "big crossbows" are the answer because I don't think even those could defeat proper plate armor at moderate range. Also, the problems with fireproofing people with medieval tech are probably insurmountable while retaining any potential for offense.

I'd suggest calling in the alchemists and wizards to try and cook up a gun, poison, or acid that could kill the dragon. Even partial success could make a dragon find easier prey.

Beyond that I would try to structure society and government with a lot of redundancy with the expectation of suffering losses to dragons. Realistically, if you can't find a solution to kill the dragon you need to learn how to minimize risk associated with it, and how to absorb any losses it might make you suffer on a macro level. its basically a natural disaster.

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>>49988367
Breath Attack. Anon wants to go final fantasy on the dragon.

>>49988707
Do you have any idea how many different poisons there are?

>>49988763
That number is greatly reduced in practice when you are dealing with medieval level tech.

>>49988745
>>Fantastical Thor strength
It's either a huge iron bar with a pointy end, or else a tree with a pointy steel bit on one side.
Dragon Breath won't be quick enough to actually burn it.

>>49988789
Not it. You.

>>49988707
>You don't need to be a wizard to immunize yourself against some poisons like snake venom. You just ratchet up exposure very slowly. Its been done by a few people and you can google it.
Does a dragon have access to google? Would such a mighty creature have regular access to such poisons and be willing to bring themselves low to inject themselves with unknown amounts of poison through unknown means? Dragons ain't suicidally paranoid due to being a giant fire breathing lizard capable of toppling castles.
>I doubt any number of men could defeat a dragon of sufficient size/strength/int without special weapons or tactics as you point out.
Agreed. But this is D&D where a certain build could cause you to be able to kill an adult red dragon with two darts %65 of the time. Logic is out the window.
>I don't think "big crossbows" are the answer because I don't think even those could defeat proper plate armor at moderate range. Also, the problems with fireproofing people with medieval tech are probably insurmountable while retaining any potential for offense.
A ballista can shoot a metal tipped arrow through multiple car doors. I think shooting a dozen at a dragon should be enough to wound it heavily or cripple both wings.
>I'd suggest calling in the alchemists and wizards to try and cook up a gun, poison, or acid that could kill the dragon. Even partial success could make a dragon find easier prey.
That's against the rules. We are talking about how someone with no magic in D&D could kill a dragon.
>Beyond that I would try to structure society and government with a lot of redundancy with the expectation of suffering losses to dragons. Realistically, if you can't find a solution to kill the dragon you need to learn how to minimize risk associated with it, and how to absorb any losses it might make you suffer on a macro level. its basically a natural disaster.
Which would wipe out your civilization regardless if you don't stand up and do something to kill it.

>>49987503
i came up with a system we use in D&D. There is an initiative list that i keep. the players take their rolls without discussing sharing eachothers info on success (each has a DM style screen with a tablet that we have linked up to mine and sends me their results while i prep the enemy actions), but without applying the damage or actually moving. instead, everything occurs according to my initiative list at the same time. Slight advantage to the top of the list, but if you take a shot with a bow and the goblin moves just before your "turn" you still miss. the player is allowed a "correction" roll to still connect the attack, but it gives the illusion overall that things happen all at once instead of turn based.

>>49988810
Jumping to the side is more effective to avoid Dragon Breath than jumping upwards.

>>49988854
That just makes the game harder.

>>49988824
I figured I'd leave the dragons intelligence open ended. Seeking immunization to poison is something a Dragon MIGHT try, depending on a lot of factors and level of intelligence. Its also something they simply might have naturally, like the possum.

Are ancient ballistas really capable of what you imply? I personally doubt it, but if you have a source that would be helpful to post. If its possible to injure a dragon with one then I would simply commision that they become standard infantry weapons and mass produce them, but based on the specifics of dragons within the setting they probably won't do shit.

DnD isn't the only RPG out there and I have mostly been looking at the problem outside of a ruleset and just tried to imagine dragons being transplanted into actual history or something similar.

I meant the term "wizard" as it was used historically as a catchall term for mystics/alchemist. They obviously didn't have real magic, but kings still called on them to tell fortunes, predict the weather, or cook up some remedy.

>>49988102
so it can use its fucking hands to do shit
>small shit fundamentally upsets me more than large shit. give me a bear with an axe over a rat with a sword any day.

>>49988945
At least the bear can make herself useful, chopping wood for you and stuff.

>>49988940
>standard infantry weapons and mass produce them
A ballista is basically a very large crossbow. Accounts tell of it piercing through both horse and armored rider during its time, but it was a bitch to reload and hard to move.

>>49988897
makes it flow better. they get to talk tactics during the down time and with the "correction" rolls, it ends up being only slightly more challenging than normal. these are players who have played for over a decade and wanted to change it up. for the past year, we have run this way and they love it.

>>49988969
>69
>and stuff
>>49988940
go read up on historic siege weapons such as the scorpion and ballistia

>>49987503
It really depends on the dragon. If its intelligent, the martial is fucked if its a guy with a sword working on his own. If the dragon isn't intelligent, he has a fairly unlikely shot but as a last ditch sort of thing it might work.

>100% fire resistance, or setting equivalent
>very agile

Combine those two, and he can just tank the fire long enough for a dragon to realize it can't burn him. If its smart, it will realize the tiny motherfucker probably has tricks up its sleeve and will start start tossing rocks at it. If its stupid, it will go straight after him into melee. Since it would probably have to be slow, there's a possibility to Kratos your way up him. But that would definiently be difficult and would require a dedicated set of rules to pull off well.

I generally have dragons be small and flightless. Small being a relative term, mind; the males are about the size of Rhinos and Females grow to the size of a small house (since they're in charge of defending the nest while males need to be quick to hunt). Though the males can manage cheetah speeds in a charge, and a hunting pack of drakes makes a wedge of Cataphracts look downright safe in comparison.

>>49987818
I'd love if you did though. Is that a good enough reason to ?

>>49989155
Maybe tomorrow, if I remember to. I need to go to bed now.

>>49989020
I have before and currently am. I can't find any evidence that large crossbows were capable of piercing hardened steel plate. Not even anecdotal mention of it.

And logically it seems reasonable to me to that such weapons wouldn't be capable of this, because as I understand plate armor was developed and evolved in reaction to gun powder weapons, not bows of any kind.

Hardened sloped steel just isn't going to see significant penetration from subsonic weapons.

>>49987900
Right. Underestimate him. That's how every dragon falls.

>>49989252
>large crossbows
Do you know what a ballista is? It's a crossbow the size of a car that shoots logs thicker than your arm (or the average person's arm).

>>49989252
What about those giant thin leathery targets full of blood vessels and muscle tissue called wings? Or the underbelly of the dragon? Or the eyes? Or anywhere else? If you're just going to drone on about "Its not realistic for a peasant with a crossbow to kill a dragon" then shut it. A Fantasy martial is like Achilles.

>>49988940
>Are ancient ballistas really capable of what you imply?
Its worth noting that piercing through modern car doors is different than piercing through plate armor. Also, like >>49989386 said, its not something you can carry around. You needed a whole crew to operate one ballista. Artillery is rather more impactful than a one man weapon.

>but based on the specifics of dragons
If we assume that scales on dragons work fundamentally similar to how they work on any other animal with scales, it would just be a matter of firing at the right angle and at the right speeds to force the scales aside.

>>49989386
wikipedia tells me a ballista was not a homogenous entity and that the largest of them fired stones roughly weighing 170 lbs. When they got that big I guarantee you would no longer be able to track a moving target capable of attacking from literally any angle and breathing fire.

>>49989494
In the scenario you describe, these would be weapons mounted on the walls and possibly internal towers of a castle or town (lighter ones, but still in large numbers, would be more likely for hunting) and each would operate independently upon a dragon attack. Also, I don't really see why it would be difficult; a dragon that size would have considerable mass and take a relatively long time to turn around. Assuming, of course, the laws of motion are still in effect.

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>>49988494
>this nigga never heard of Ancalagon the Black
This motherfucker was the size of a mountain range

>>49987503
First, OP, define a high-level martial without resorting to stupid vidjya attack cycles.

>>49989580
Ballista of that size were massive machines weighing thousands of pounds that required pulleys and levers just to minutely change the firing angle so as to fire at roughly static targets. Unless you are suggesting that the dragon flies into the firing arc I'm not sure how you expect to be able to hit the dragon. These things were siege weapons. Designed to shoot at fortifications like stone walls.

Imagine trying to hit a dragon with a trebuchet if that is easier to understand.

>>49989675
Then don't use the big ones. Contrary to what seems to be common thought, scales are not an intricately and mathematically designed designed perfect armor damaged only by the relative frailty of the scales; they don't cover perfectly and if you're shooting large numbers numbers of lighter ones, or even scorpios. Hell, there's even a small size ballista called a 'hand ballista' (Cheiroballistra) that shot bolts made mostly of metal.

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>>49987503
Run up the raindrops and stab that motherfucker in it's face.
Hulk out and throw your sword really. REALLY hard at it's wing.
THIRD IMPACT it with Ki.
Fire yourself from a heavy ballista.
Suplex it.

I mean, it's not like you're playing a system where martials are not on par with casters, are you?

>>49987900
Spoken like a man who's never woken up with his eyeballs half clawed out and scratches round his throat deep enough to bleed.

>>49987573
Asbestos usually only causes cancers in those exposed to it regularly over the course of decades. If you're a career dragon killer, then it's gonna be a problem.

>>49987994
I am that is.

>>49987854
Rats don't need combat experience or intelligence, just numbers and the desire to kill.

>>49988856
>Jump Upwards
>Dragon's breath falls upon itself, obscuring vision
>Lunge your lugged spear down, cutting the Dragon down

Dragoon's are actually a realistic counter to Dragon's.

If you can counter the Dragon's wings by Magical jumping and immunity to fall damage, the Dragon is fucked.

Dragon's don't expect attacks from above.

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I've always liked the almost childlike simplicity of "bigger enemy = get a bigger sword."

That's kind of why I love how in Monster Hunter the smallest weapons are still oversized.

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>>49990534
What's the largest weapon useable by players in monster hunter? On a scale of 1-50 where 1-10 is shown what would the average mid-game weapons be?

>>49990534
I understand the appeal of that on an intellectual level but I've never managed to actually like it. My dad taught me classical fencing as a kid so I've always been really conscious of just how big a different an extra two pounds makes, let alone swords like those.

>>49990629
One of the bigger weapons is a full-sized coffin strapped to a mutant chicken leg and painted purple. So probably a 15.

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>>49988251
>having the barbarian dress up as a virgin
I'll bite. How does a virgin dress?

>>49991283
If you're in a civilized part of the world, a 13 year old girl. If you're in a Muslim part of the world, a 4 year old girl.

Hopefully the dragon has bad eyesight.

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>>49989646
>Ancalagon the Black
>posts deathwing

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>>49987503

>>49989646
I realize that Tolkien isn't exactly the hot new shit, but I think he meant medieval legends or earlier.

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Really big bow

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wait, you don't wanna beat up the dragon with your bare hands and rip out his powers? weird

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>>49991563
I'm sorry it was misstagged in my booru I'll fix it promptly and post classic Ancalagon
My bad

>>49992049
What's even the point if you don't have a pure qt cop waifu with a robo arm

>>49987992
>The point is how does it happen?

1) Get yourself a long length of rope. 50 ft. at least.
2) Make a lasso
3) Lasso the dragon
4) Climb the rope
5) Commence with stabbing

Other methods of climbing onto the dragon are also acceptable, but that's how I dealt with one when I had to.

>>49987646
>>49988013
but i LOVED the first movie. i could tolerate the second. the third one might me cringe on every level. that makes the trilogy as a whole even harder to swallow for me.

>>49989155
Oh well.
I guess I should split them into two categories, "general" and "for fans of the book". But I won't, because it'd be a pain. While I do understand that certain changes were necessary because the book doesn't really lend itself to a movie adaption as-is, others weren't just arbitrary, they were really shit. I'll start off by saying that I really liked the first movie until about the time when they got into the mountains. That's when things got wacky.

- Adding the storm giants literally rather than just as a rumor as an opportunity to have some 3D action. The action was largely nonsensical and the resulting plot-holes were just par for the course. Why is there a path if the giants regularly redecorate the mountains? Why did the orcs have such an elaborate trap prepared in the cave if the cave was only randomly and temporarily connected to anything and travelers were more likely to die than to get anywhere?
- Turning the orc cave into an amusement park as another opportunity for some 3D action, and the resulting slapstick montage. How were these craftsmen (not professional fighters) able to deflect arrows with their swords?
- Bilbo finds the ring in bright light, making his later musing about the contents of his pocket nonsensical.
- Bilbo gets his first kills, and the orcs just jump onto the companions' swords in their hurry to die. The point of the Hobbit as a story was Bilbo slowly learning how to use his wits and the ring to become a reliable and competent adventurer. He is not an action hero.
- the white orc. Seriously. The fucking white orc.
- Why did they cut the orc song about 15 birds in a tree? Because these were SERIOUS orcs? Serious orcs that can't die quickly enough against a halfling?
- turning the dark forest into basically an afternoon stroll. Having already shown Bilbo cutting down orcs they apparently felt they didn't need him fighting the spiders anymore. That used to be an important part of his characterization.

>>49987646
The extended editions are much better. Seriously I can not convey how much they improve the movies. Watch them, still not great but much much better.

>>49987992
I see to many people bitching about how a fantasy setting is unrealistic for blah blah reason. If you don't like it find a new fucking genre retards.

>>49996169
- the dwarf-elf romance
- the Gandalf-Galadriel romance
- The stark contrast between random childish (slapstick) humor and the more serious bits.
- Legolas. Orlando Bloom is a lot of things, but he is not an actor. Making him a Gary Stu with cartoon physics does not make him more appealing. It just makes him more irritating.
- the dumb fight with the dwarfs in the barrels
- turning the black arrow into something that was specifically designed to kill dragons
- having the dwarves and Bilbo fight/flee from the dragon
- Why is every single dungeon Jackson designs so stupidly spacious? All these retarded bridges and bottomless pits, literally every single dungeon, even the elvish home looked like that.
- riding paper-thin vessels on molten gold? Hiding behind columns from dragon fire that is hot enough to restart the old furnaces?
- the dwarves' attitude towards armor. Only putting it on when they were actually about to charge the orcs, and immediately taking it off when their boss decided not to. Then, when they actually attacked, they didn't bother putting it back on.
- that cliched writing both for the dragon's death and for Thorin's death while I was still thinking "Why aren't you wearing your armor you piece of shit?"

There is probably more that I forgot. Oh well.

Fighting spirit, the power of friendship, sheer force of will, hard work and guts, effort, victory, courage, and a never-give-up attitude.
That should be more than enough for one dragon. Come back when you have at least three dragons.

>>49996169
Here we go
>Adding the storm giants literally rather than just as a rumor as an opportunity to have some 3D action.
I hate it when people say 'ooo the stone giants weren't actually in the book it was just a metaphor'. Here's a direct quote from the third edition of The Hobbit page 52-53 "When he peeped out in the lightning-flashes, he saw that across the valley the stone-giants were out, and were hurling rocks at one another for a game," that's Bilbo as he watches them. I agree them actually fighting was just to make it all dramatic and shit.
>Why is there a path if the giants regularly redecorate the mountains?
Probably because them redecorating the mountains makes new paths.
>Why did the orcs have such an elaborate trap prepared in the cave if the cave was only randomly and temporarily connected to anything and travelers were more likely to die than to get anywhere?
yeah in the book it's their front door.
>Turning the orc cave into an amusement park as another opportunity for some 3D action,and the resulting slapstick montage. How were these craftsmen (not professional fighters) able to deflect arrows with their swords? and the resulting slapstick montage.
Yeah either they were trying to convey that non of the members of the party were human. Although its more likely it was a throwback to the flight from Moria. Dwarven Craftsmen not Human/luck. Don't remember the slapstick montage bit apart from the fat gobbo landing on top of them.
>Bilbo finds the ring in bright light, making his later musing about the contents of his pocket nonsensical.
Not really He had other things on his mind right then so its reasonable that he forgot about something so insignificant as a ring.

>>49996405
>makes new paths.
Yes, but where to?
The cave used to be their front door because they could rely on the path to still be there tomorrow.

>>49996405
Part 2
>Bilbo gets his first kills, and the orcs just jump onto the companions' swords in their hurry to die. The point of the Hobbit as a story was Bilbo slowly learning how to use his wits and the ring to become a reliable and competent adventurer. He is not an action hero.
No but it was an action movie. Blame modern audiences.
>the white orc. Seriously. The fucking white orc.
I didn't have a problem with Azog. It added a bit of depth to Thorin's character. I would have preferred it if it was just Bolg trying to get revenge on Thorin for killing his dad. But eh.
>Why did they cut the orc song about 15 birds in a tree? Because these were SERIOUS orcs? Serious orcs that can't die quickly enough against a halfling?
Probably because it would ruin the tone they were trying to set. And he killed maybe 2.
>turning the dark forest into basically an afternoon stroll. Having already shown Bilbo cutting down orcs they apparently felt they didn't need him fighting the spiders anymore. That used to be an important part of his characterization.
Watch the extended edition it adds so, SO much more to Mirkwood.
>>49996256
>the dwarf-elf romance.
Yeah fuck that. Although maybe they were trying to show that Dwarves and Elves can get along thus breaking the stereotype so many people on here bitch about.
>the Gandalf-Galadriel romance.
Gandalf you old dog. But I think they were trying to establish that these two characters are old freinds. But they made it into some creepy romance shit.
>The stark contrast between random childish (slapstick) humor and the more serious bits.
Some of the humor I liked. Like Legolas insulting Gloin's family. Alot of it they should have left the fuck out.
>Legolas. Orlando Bloom is a lot of things, but he is not an actor. Making him a Gary Stu with cartoon physics does not make him more appealing. It just makes him more irritating.
Yeah bit to much of him.

>>49987503
By not resorting to stupid vidya limitations.

>>49996405
part 3
>the dumb fight with the dwarfs in the barrels.
I liked it. But they could have left it out
>Turning the black arrow into something that was specifically designed to kill dragons.
Yeah it kind of ruined Bards character. It would have been so much better if bard had shot Smaug with a normal arrow.
>having the dwarves and Bilbo fight/flee from the dragon.
The Hobbit probably needed to have three movies. So they needed a climax for the second film. However It should have been Bard slaying OR the Grey Council confronting the Necromancer in a much more badass scene.
>Why is every single dungeon Jackson designs so stupidly spacious? All these retarded bridges and bottomless pits, literally every single dungeon, even the elvish home looked like that.
Because magic fantasy setting so magic fantasy sets and Elves like to show off and Dwarves have compensation issues AND they aren't dungeons they are homes, palaces and fortresses.
>riding paper-thin vessels on molten gold? Hiding behind columns from dragon fire that is hot enough to restart the old furnaces?
Yeah that entire sequence was stupid. Leave your reasoning behind.
>the dwarves' attitude towards armor. Only putting it on when they were actually about to charge the orcs, and immediately taking it off when their boss decided not to. Then, when they actually attacked, they didn't bother putting it back on.
And
>that cliched writing both for the dragon's death and for Thorin's death while I was still thinking "Why aren't you wearing your armor you piece of shit?"
Autisim.

>>49996426
How do we know it was their only front door? It might have been an old unused door that the companions stumbled across. And when the Goblins noticed they were probably like. 'holy shit theirs a new path leading to the old new front door'.

>>49987503
Maybe if they tried hitting it really hard, over and over again? Besides Fantasy people aren't real world people. That guy on the pegasus's grandma could probably kick your ass without trying.

>>49988276
Supposed dragons are brainless animals driven by instinct humans could probably hunt dragons to extinction. Just find a way to hunt it then perfect the method over generations. Killing smaug-tier smart dragons is probably impossible to hunt in that way tho because the dragons will adapt to your strategy

>>49987503
Joseph Joestar tier cunning

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>>49987503
>I don't want stupid vidya attacks
>I don't want stupid anime attacks
And this is why martials will always remain underpowered to casters: because casters are allowed to step outside of the laws of physics where fighters are not. A high level monk should be Dragonball-tier if he wants to catch up with the casters, either you accept that or you play a game without magic.

>>49996256
>>49996169
YOU FORGOT
THE FUCKERS CUT THE ROBIN TELLING BARD THE TARGET SPOT

>>49996940
Oh right, that.
As I said, I make no claims of having exhausted the list of flaws.

>>49988260
I mean Beowulf did it without planning and so I this this anon has the right percentile down 5% go for broke then die on a beach looking at your dead dragon babby

>>49988325
Underrated post

>>49990126
>fire yourself from a heavy ballista
I'm fucking dead

>>49990259
nope, even then it isn't.
Asbestos is only cancirogenic in form of dust you breathe into your lungs. Asbestos outfits are perfectly safe unless they are shit quality. Asbestos mining and deteroriating construction elements are the problem.

>>49988555
Some sort of massive shotgun-cannon?
Maybe you could have guys with billhooks trying to hook on/drag downd the dragon.

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Step one: become absolute madman
Step two: stab dragon in softspot
Repeat as many limbs as it takes

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>>49997009
What could go wrong?

>>49997029
You forgot to mention step 1:
Max out charisma so the dragon even has a soft spot for you.

>>49997067
Right.

Kill all the tsundere dragons.

>>49996169
>Adding the storm giants literally rather than just as a rumor

I don't recall any storm giants in Tolkien at all, but there are literally STONE giants in the book:

"When he peeped out in the lightning-flashes, he saw that across the valley the stone-giants were out and were hurling rocks at one another for a game, and catching them, and tossing them down into the darkness where they smashed among the trees far below, or splintered into little bits with a bang."

That is not metaphor, simile, or any other illustration. Bilbo sees literal stone giants throwing literal stones.

If you take issue with the giants regularly redecorating the mountain, take it up with JRR Tolkien, not New Line Cinema.

>Turning the orc

Goblin

>cave into an amusement park as another opportunity for some 3D action, and the resulting slapstick montage

Ah, I see. You're from the "no fun" school of cinema.

>making his later musing about the contents of his pocket nonsensical.

It's not nonsensical at all. He was flustered by the fact that there was a scary looking troglodyte threatening to kill and eat him if he didn't come up with a riddle to stump said trog and, while trying to think up a riddle and find some inspiration, idly wondered "what have I got in my pockets?", as in "maybe there's something in my pockets I can use as inspiration".

>the white orc. Seriously. The fucking white orc.

Yeah, I'll give you that one.

>That used to be an important part of his characterization.

First, he still fights the spiders, so I don't know what movie you were watching, but it wasn't The Hobbit.

Second, it's still an important part of his characterization, just in a different way, since it now serves to help develop the Ring.

>the dwarf-elf romance

Down with miscegenation!

>>49996256
>the dwarf-elf romance

Seriously I do not have a problem with this, if for no other reason then the fact that it helps develop the dwarves. In the original Hobbit the only dwarves of importance are Thorin (as the leader), Balin (as the oldest with usually good advice), and Bombur (for being fat). All the rest of the dwarves are as interchangeable as they are forgettable.

Tamriel needed more and better characterization, but if for nothing else then the fact that she helps make Kili distinct from the other dwarves, I approve of her addition.

>having the dwarves and Bilbo fight/flee from the dragon

Noooope. Coolest damn series of scenes in the entire trilogy. You are officially done for not liking that. The dwarves never even SEEING Smaug was one of my biggest complaints with The Hobbit. I approve of the change wholeheartedly.

Look, when I picked up The Hobbit, I was reading it for one thing and one thing only: Smaug. Everything else is just buildup to or fallout from the dragon, but the dragon is what I was there for. So anything that adds to the dragon's screen time is fully approved.

get eaten without being killed in the process

if you've got your sword, start chopping away at the GUTS

>>49996914
>This level of reading comprehension
An attack cycle is when a monster in a video game performs a number of attacks before sitting still and allowing the player to attack without fear of getting hit back.

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>>49987503
I didn't read up.

I played a lot of 3.P and now 5e and in both editions if the dragon sits there and attacks/uses abilities in an equal fight (as per encounter building) the players always just wreck the dragon. For precisely the reasons you mentioned OP dragons need to be fought in unique ways for the fight to actually matter, including grounding the dragon for martial classes to attack and then keeping them from simply flying away when they get injured.

When I DM I tend to punish players for mindlessly thinking they can walk in to a fight like a WoW raid just as equally as I reward them for creative narrative allowing for fighting dragons.

In general most battles would require smart actions to substantially weaken the dragon so he retreats to his lair where they have to finish them off. Lairs are often given abilities to supplement the fact that the dragon is usually unable to fly at great heights in the confines of a lair making it a more even and interesting playing field for melee classes.

>>49987854
Obviously. It's necessarily bad to underestimate any threat. That being said, it'd be pretty tough to underestimate the threat a rat with a tiny sword poses. I would just squish the rat.