D&D 4e General /4eg/ Which tier of the game do you like

>>49902934
>Which tier of the game do you like the most and why? Which tier do you actually play the most?
I've never played epic but I'm kinda tied between Heroic and Paragon. Once you get a paragon path the game feels surprisingly different; you get a bunch of options and modifications to your base features and it sometimes doesn't seem like you're even the same class anymore. Managing all that can be cumbersome, but it's glorious when you pull off some super synergistic action that sets off a cascade of like four other effects.

Heroic is more manageable and I guess as "down to earth" as 4e gets, but it always feels like you're building up to your full capacity. This all may be just because I'm addicted to hybrids though. There's always a sense of not quite being at max capabilities when playing hybrids.

My ideal game would start at a couple levels just before paragon and make a whole story arc out of the various pcs achieving whatever they needed to to get entry into their chosen paragon paths, and then follow them as far as the overarching plot goes. Some of the fluff for these pps are absolute gold and it disappoints me gms don't make much use of it.

>>49902934

>>49902883
>>49902905
Cleric has the most surgeless healing, but don't add much to their heals besides more HP

If you just want to be able to heal the most, go cleric. If you want each heal to do the most other stuff, go warlord or bard

>here's a bunch of homebrew fixes to fix your perfect out of the box game guys!
Uh huh.

>>49903156
>think about giving out a few extra feats
>use later monsters, because they are better
>use skill challenges as intended

Where is the homebrew, I'm not seeing it?

>>49903168
Giving out extra feats is technically homebrewing

>>49903138
Warlords seem like they shine the most when focusing on their powers and use healing only peripherally. Bards seemed to play more like keikaku wizards to me and not really care about healing so much as setting up some crazy shit with their subclass feature bonuses. I would think shaman has the best balance of healing and doing other stuff.

>>49903202
Warlords have a feat which gives them an extra use of their heal per encounter, a feat that lets them drop some of the HP restored to grant a saving throw with their heal, and a bunch of feats that add a bunch of little bonuses to their heal

Warlords are sort of like fighters. They can do one thing insanely well, but are also the best or second best at a bunch of other things.

>>49903243
>a feat that lets them drop some of the HP restored to grant a saving throw with their heal, and a bunch of feats that add a bunch of little bonuses to their heal
To be fair nearly every leader class has some equivalent. It's really only clerics that are the odd ones out in that respect

>>49903243
>>49903280
Oh yeah and runepriests, but that's just because WotC forgot they existed

>>49903243
Warlords are like Fighters in the sense that what they can do is heavily reliant on their feature and feat choices, but they have a fuckton of options.

One of my players has a battlefront leader for higher AC, since the group didn't have a defender until recently. And most of her feats are for healing, since she's the only leader in a group that consists of two melee strikers, one of whom has shitty CON, and a wizard.

The extra heal per encounter is amazingly useful, since the party is very reliant on nerfing their enemies into the ground and pummeling them quickly. A string of bad rolls means they're eating a lot of damage because whatever they're fighting isn't prone, slowed and suffering an extra attack penalty.

>>49903191
It's also not necessary.

I've always said that the initial pasta is too dogmatic, but OTOH it was made by 2hu.

>>49903367
what classes were your two melee strikers?

Because in that scenario, I'd normally recommend that one of them switch to a high-damage fighter. Almost as much DPR, and with the added bonus of having an actual defender around

>>49903505
It was made by the WotC CharOP forums. There were calculations done on precisely when pcs fall behind the expected hit rates. I believe to-hit fell behind at lvl 5, while defenses fell behind lvl 7, and both got cumulatively worse every tier. There were homebrews made to fix it even before WotC released feats to address it.

I mean, you can play the game while ignoring these issues; you won't end up completely curbstomped by everything, but it wasn't the intention of the game design for the numbers to fall off like they do without the fixes. They're as close to necessary as any "optional" feature gets.

>>49903649
It's bullshit, and the fact that it was established on a charop board is even more proof that it's bullshit.
Seriously, "falling behind" one point of attack bonus per tier is not. A. Big. Deal. You won't even notice at the table.

>>49903649
I think he means it's not necessary handing it out for free.

I'm also sure expertise feats had been in core in the form of weapon focus.

>>49903689
shit I'm an idiot, that's only for damage.

Disregard what I've said.

>>49903667
-15% accuracy is a noticeable issue by epic, and even smaller detriments end up making options that trade away accuracy/defenses for some other benefit more detrimental than they were intended to be, and things that increase those more vital than need be. It's just about establishing the baseline the designers expected. They made things assuming you'd have x% chance to hit/get hit, and it turns out that it was off. It's just a simple patch that if anything opens up more options for pcs (assuming you let them have it for free)

>>49903689
The charOP forums generally agreed the feats weren't strictly must haves till like late paragon; -5% manageable but the fact it gets worse is not

>>49903649
Look, it's also super easy to check.
Monster defenses start at 12, and go up +1 per level.
At level 1, assuming you only have a +3 from your main stat, you have 50% to hit. (average weapon prof cancels out with monster AC bump).
This means that over the course of 30 levels you have to get a +30 to stay on that baseline.
15 comes from half level. 6 from weapon/implement bonus. 3 from regular stat bumps.
At this point we are roughly behind 2 points per tier - but this is assuming minimum requirements. It's not hard to get another +3 from stat bumps alone (starting 18, racial, epic destiny). Weapon users can get another +1 by choosing the right weapon. Several classes have built-in attack bonuses.
Then in addition to that you have all the teamwork benefits, conditional bonuses, leader buffs, controller debuffs, and combat advantage.
And all this is in baseline PHB1, before featuring in the math fix feats.
It's really not an issue.

>>49903592
Avenger and Monk.

The Avenger wouldn't be so squishy if she didn't dump points into STR to multi-class fighter and take Kensai. She cites wanting to balance out the optimization of being an elf avenger, so she doesn't out perform the rest of the party too much. Not that she's THAT high-op. Didn't even take the samurai theme. Or any theme, in fact.

The monk has incredibly devastating dailies. Multi-target, and her feats apply several save ends effects on top of them. I've suggested she grab some daggers so she has a ranged attack option.

I usually adjust encounters to accommodate the lack of defender or ranged strikers. But sometimes I'll throw in some artillery or controllers on a ledge or across a chasm, to remind them that not having ranged options can cause problems. Though I also throw in low mobility brutes in some fights, so they have something they can curb stomp.

>>49903778
>The charOP forums generally agreed the feats weren't strictly must haves till like late paragon; -5% manageable but the fact it gets worse is not

Right, I'm just saying that the worst that happens if you don't hand it out for free is that the players are down a feat.

>>49903829
But feats are cool. Why waste a chance for something actively cool by filling it with some passive +x% to hit? I wanna get the feat that lets me slow on an OA, or swap a power for another, or get temp hp for smacking a bitch

>>49903908
If you can't fit in one expertise feat somewhere in fourteen levels, I don't know what to tell you.

>>49903787
>Armorless WIS & DEX/INT based class
>Pumps STR
>Isn't even playing a +STR race
>Does it all to purposefully be less effective
I will never understand anti-OPers.

>>49903944
Some race/class combos just have a lot of cool feat choices. God help you if you're a hybrid on top of that

>>49903944
You keep missing the point. +hit is boring, but extraordinarily effective. Why not just give it out for free so that feat can be spent on something fun instead, like actual character customization?

>>49903971
'Dumped into' in this case just means 13, to qualify for Battle Awareness or whatever it's called. Though it means her Fort is shit, too.

Meanwhile, the monk is Stone Fist and doesn't use a weapon. The group isn't high op, which is probably why the resident optimizer feels the need to rein it in a little more than necessary.

Seriously, doesn't even take a theme. I even point out, hey, you could take a theme. If you don't want a lot of minor bonuses to fill out, take Gladiator or something. But she said no.

>>49903983
If you're making a hybrid, you've decided that you won't be able to get every 'cool' option, ever. Being able to cherry pick powers between two classes is the cool thing you get.

>>49904081
I get what you mean. I'm just saying that giving it out for free isn't NECESSARY. It's a nice idea, but not mandatory for the game to work.

When I DM, I give out a Improved Defenses and Expertise feats for free in all my games. Also inherent bonus. It cuts down on hassle. But it still isn't a requirement.

>>49904095
>'Dumped into' in this case just means 13, to qualify for Battle Awareness or whatever it's called.
well in that case it shouldn't be hard to get two 16's and a 13 to qualify for that. Avengers even have their oath thing so they don't have to care as much for maving out their attack stat.
But it also means the kensei encounter and daily are worthless. I suppose the path is still worth it without them, but dead features are just so...ick

>If you're making a hybrid, you've decided that you won't be able to get every 'cool' option, ever. Being able to cherry pick powers between two classes is the cool thing you get.
You actually can't cherry pick precisely; you have a quota for powers from each class you must select. It's somewhat more restrictive in that sense, especially if you didn't plan out your progression like 10 levels in advance.

>>49904122
I would call them necessary by epic.

>>49903971
You know there is a relatively optimal build for avengers that is str/dex

Basically you make an avenger, then you immediately say "I don't want to be an avenger, I want to be a ranger", so you spend 4 feats and your paragon path on becoming a ranger.

It's generally not quite as good as taking twin strike as your dilettante power as a half elf then grabbing adept dilettante and versatile master to use it as a wis-based at-will power. But you do get some mighty huge novas out of it

>>49904206
>Means the kensai encounter and daily are worthless

But the kensai encounter is always worthless

>>49904240
At least it's usable

>>49904213
Sounds like it's also pretty shit until you get to paragon and really can be a ranger

>>49903829
>>49903908
>>49903944
The thing about expertise feats is that the really cool ones are worth taking even if you're handing out expertise bonuses to attack rolls for free

For example: Light Blade expertise, Spear expertise, Tome expertise, Staff expertise, Flail expertise, even ki focus expertise

>>49904267
It's usable but never worth using. To the classes that take Kensai, it's worse than using an at-will in almost every possible situation

What ways are there to add bonuses to init besides wood elf and improved initiative feat?

>>49905158
There are two backgrounds that give a small initiative bonus, a couple of themes have initiative bonuses attached to them. The Githzerai and Hobgoblin races both have a +2 racial bonus to initiative (although only githzerai gets a dexterity bonus alongside that). If you take the arcane familiar feat as an arcane class, there are a few familiars that come with an initiative bonus. There's a bunch of paragon paths that have initiative bonuses, having a warlord with the combat leader feature gives you an initiative bonus, and the danger sense feat

>>49905213
Thanks. You wouldn't happen to know how the lucky feat (roll twice on first attack) interacts with an avenger oath would you? Does lucky let you reroll each avenger die for a total of four, or does it just give you one extra roll for a total of three?

>>49905622
They don't stack.

http://funin.space/compendium/power/Oath-of-Enmity.html

>If another effect lets you roll twice and use the higher result when making an attack roll, this power has no effect on that attack.

>>49903778
Are you 2hu?

>>49903505
There's also the fact he words most of his posts as strict instructions, it's his way or fuck you for not listening.

I'd like to play Epic. The highest I've ever gotten is low paragon.

>>49903667
>Seriously, "falling behind" one point of attack bonus per tier is not. A. Big. Deal.
Yeah okay, just make those guys who didn't put a 20 in their main stat and pick a +3 weapon hit less than half of the time, that's totally not noticeable at a table.

Fucking retard.

>>49909687
>I have +17 to hit
>You have +16
>You are worthless

Suuure.
Insult me all you want, but the truth is, the game holds up even if you are not autistic about the numbers. You don't have to prove that 4e needs to be perfect because if you don't you'll lose the edition wars. That ship has sailed. Just enjoy the fucking game and stop sperging about the math.

>>49909938
It's more like a difference between +17 to hit and +13 to hit.
>the game holds up even if you are not autistic about the numbers.
No it doesn't. Epic tier combat is already long as it is and refusing to allow Expertise feats because you think the game functions without them makes it much, much longer, far beyond the point where combat drags to the point where it's not fun. You can fuck right off.

>>49909999
Nobody said anything about not allowing expertise feats. The point is, there is no need to give them out for free or the game doesn't work.
Also, if you are that much behind by end of epic level, it means that you avoided every single choice that gave you access to more +hit over 30 levels. I wouldn't put the blame entirely on the system in that case.

>>49902934
>D&D 4e

>>49910080
There's over 3000 feats in 4e, and like 600 available to a single character over the course of their career. Unconditional plus to hits comprise maybe 30 of those, all which will not be available depending on weapon type, class, etc. If you went with maces or something they're simply not available. It would be incredibly easy go all 18 feat choices without picking up a plus to hit feat, and really they're just boring so average non-charop players will ignore them anyway. That was the whole idea behind the release of the buffed up expertise feats in essentials - nobody really wanted the regular ones so they made overpowered versions that were attractive even without the plus.

>>49910184
>(You)

>>49904206
>>>49904122
>I would call them necessary by epic.

I think the other poster's point is that players have enough feats that it they can afford to buy the expertise feats from their normal feat allocation. It isn't necessary for the DM to hand out the feats for free, it just saves the characters from choosing boring feats because they're so optimal.

(I think WotC should have just fixed the fucking math directly instead of adding patch feats. Give +1 to hit and NADs at levels 5, 15 and 25.)

>>49910688
Bludgeon expertise works with maces

All right /tg/: what was the most left-field 4e reskin you pulled off?

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>>49914983
I did a hybrid Avenger/Seeker as an obnoxiously weeb swordsman. The DM let me fluff an armbow as vacuum wave technique shenanigans and I used the one "Kill a target and teleport to them" as the nothing personnel teleport kill.

Game didn't last but three sessions, but I had a blast. I also never missed.

>>49914983
I played pic related (it's a Ben10 character) as an artificer. All the powers, either summons or contraptions, were things that she got out of her magic bag.

>>49902934
>(I think WotC should have just fixed the fucking math directly instead of adding patch feats. Give +1 to hit and NADs at levels 5, 15 and 25.)

In my dream 4e, characters would have a straight +level to all things, way less feats but with meatier effects, and magic items with no numerical bonuses.
That said, it's not the game we have, but the game we have is ok as is.

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>>49915168
Fuck phoneposting.

>>49905158
Battle harness is nice, but doesn't stack with warlords.

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>>49902934
Been thinking of finding another weekly group top lay 4e with since there are a few groups who play in my area and I had considered a Slayer or Warlord depending on the party. For both classes, I considered a Gouge and Halberd. I used a gouge on my old Slayer and did hella damage but the Halberd is my one true weaponfu so I'm pretty torn

Now the kicker: I don't mind the difference in damage dice, but my main concern is that a gouge is a spear and a halberd is a polearm. It's been a very long time since I played 4e, so how different are polearms and spears? Is one inherently better than the other?

>>49902934
>tfw people are still reposting your edit two years later

>tfw every time you see it, you notice that "she would" is missing from the middle sentence.

My failure haunts me.

>>49915846
They're pretty similar in feat support, even sharing some of it. Spears have a bit more control options, polearms have a bit more numbers options.

>>49915846
Depends on what you want to do in the end. Gouge has a pretty nice low level burst option for fighters/slayers thanks to rain of blows, while also having access to headsmans chop.

>>49915867
>>49915881
Axes = damage
Polearms = "numbers"
Spears = Control

Got it. What is more popular for Warlords? I imagine most Slayers go with the Gouge.

Also what the hell does "numbers options" mean? I have not been in the 4e loop since 2011

>>49915901
>Also what the hell does "numbers options" mean?
Plain numerical bonuses.
Shit like Hafted Defence, which gives +1 to AC.

>>49915904
Oh okay, just kind of plain but useful bonuses. Got it.

>>49915911
Just go with a Greatspear. It's both a Polearm and a Spear two-in-one.

>>49915901
>>49915938
As far as I know, warlords indeed really love the greatspear.

>>49915938
>>49915982
B-but my halberdfu

But for real, greatspear is definitely an option. I appreciate the help anons

Also, is the portable compendium in the OP up to date? The Warlord/Marshal entry is nowhere near as filled out as the Slayer's entry I'd use the offline builder but it never installs correctly for me and attempts to make it work never succeed

>>49916001
It's updated correctly, the "normal" classes just have less long entries because they are mostly about picking powers instead of everything being handed as class features.

You can also go with the halberd; it saves you a feat, although it does have 1 less prof bonus.

>>49916001
Halberds are interesting, but unfortunately, as far as feat support goes, there's almost never a reason to use one

Even if you want to mix polearm support with non-spear support. The glaive is pretty much always better, because heavy blade feats are just great

>>49916049
>>49916043
Final question. Is there a guideline of some sorts to building a character that you recommend? I used to use DnD Insider before it got canned so I don't remember a bunch of the small stuff

>>49916102
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?458937-Rescued-from-WotC-Chasing-Glory-The-Warlord-Handbook

Just don't take it too seriously.

>>49916102
https://web.archive.org/web/20150916164538/http://community.wizards.com/forum/4e-character-optimization/threads/1478896

The guides are wrong... sometimes, but for the most part they're pretty comprehensive

>>49916123
>>49916128
While the specifics are nice to have, I was thinking more generally. Like, "how do I know what I gain at this level?" and "What powers can I take now? How many can I know at maximum?"

Like really basic stuff you'd give to an essentially new player. If it was in the CRB I must have skipped over it but I'll go back and look again.

>>49916162
It's in the CRB.

But you should probably get the offline builder up and running.

>>49916172
That's what I hoped to do but it never installs all of the supplement correctly. It'll show the essentials classes and like one other supplement and that's it. I'll try to toy around with it some more

>>49916193
Follow the steps here:

https://rogue-elements.obsidianportal.com/wikis/offline-character-builder

The links are defunct but you can find everything in the pastebin.

>>49916731
Took a nap, but I finally got it to work.

Somewhat

I've noticed some things mentioned in some guides aren't in the offline builder, like some Draogn magazine content (specifically Martial Cross-Training). Is there a way to update or add a custom feat?

>>49917116
Never mind, it's not available for 1st level characters. I'm literally dumbtarded

Glad to finally have a character builder again though. Maybe I can convince my group to try 4e again or find a 4e group

>>49907333
Is 2hu even still alive?

>>49917879
He was taken before his time

>>49917879
>>49917929
He got permab&, again, for avatarfagging.
It happens whenever the mods get their panties in a twist.
He'll be back.
He ALWAYS comes back.

>>49917962
>He got permab&
>He'll be back.
>permab&, again
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

>>49919707
It's a vicious cycle.

>>49917962
What's even the point of perma'ing him if he comes back?

>>49921398
Spite

>>49923257
Bump you mother.

So how about that Strike!?

>>49924460
Shit only 2hu plays.

I doubt he even really plays it, honestly. Likely has problems finding games and players, since despite it being talked about a ton, nobody actually hosts it.

>>49905158
Casque of tactics headslot

What is the 4e Character Builder that I should get? I looked and found a bunch of fanmade ones.

>>49909999
A: great quads
B: as someone who played a Bard with poor feat investment in a prolonged 4e campaign, I rapidly found myself completely unable to hit anything, and equally effectively neutered as a result. With so many powers as a support character requiring that I first *hit* a target, It was painful how often my turns would be "Does a 34 hit? No? Well fuck, i'm done for the round."

As a result, I started using a premade build of the "most accurate character possible" from a 4e number crunching board. Avenger with a specific feat investment chain, my to-hit was a total of one point higher than everyone else at the table, and i could roll to-hit twice.

That character walked down a staircase, used a power, and then got utterly obliterated by the two monsters in that room which happened to have a reaction power that reflected all damage to targets that used a power exactly as I had. Knocked from full health to -38 in one turn.

That was the very exact point where i became fed up with 4e.

>>49925992
>reflected all damage to targets that used a power exactly as I had.
The fuck monster is that?

>>49926052
'Crystal Golem' if i remember right. Not sure what book it was from, or what adventure path.

>>49926128
Sounds like your DM made a shitty homebrew monster.

It's sure as shit not in any of the monster manuals. Clay, flesh, bone, stone, iron, even a fucking tombstone golem in Open Grave, but no crystal golem.

>>49925947
It's in the pastebin.
Google the instruction how to install it, as it's a pain in the ass to do.

>>49926596

There is a Crystal Golem: http://funin.space/compendium/monster/Crystal-Golem.html

It doesn't have a power to reflect damage taken, which is comforting since that would be a really poorly designed monster power for 4e.

The DM might have misread the Fractured Body reaction the Crystal Golem has.

>>49924471
>>49924495
I DM-d it on 3 separate occasions. Looking to start an IRL group now.

When it comes to creature design, what are inventive ways to make weak creatures more dangerous as they grow in number?
The scenario I have is the pcs getting constantly mobbed by creatures that, while weak individually, can end up insurmountable in a pile up, and I don't want to rely on +x to numbers alone.
They are mutated spiders

>>49930521
Stat them individually as minions, but turn them into swarms when they reach a critical number maybe?

You could also just have a sort of passive damage aura ability, like "any enemy ending its turn adjacent to at least 3 spiders takes X damage and is slowed (save ends)".

>>49930629
The game is starting at level 1, so my plot is to have these things begin as low grade foes that are more dangerous in groups, and when they hit level 2 mid game, they become minions, and I introduce their brutish cousins as elites, 1-3 at a time.
I do like the aura ability, especially with the slow, because the horde doesn't end, and they will either run (there are npcs present who will encourage this) or fall beneath the onslaught.

>>49930697
>Endless horde you can't defeated.
>You have to run.
>But they can slow you.
That's going to suck for melee-oriented characters.

>>49930697
Okay, then it'd be something like this:

lvl 1 minion, has no "real" attacks, only the aura (change it to "starts their turn" instead of "ends their turn"), makes no AoOs, and generally high defenses so fighting them is a pain even if you try kiting/AoE. Movespeed/climbspeed of 2 (they are quite small after all, you can outrun them unless you walk into difficult terrain or have to climb), ignores difficult terrain (especially webs), tiny, can enter other creature's squares (so they can gang up on creatures even in narrow places).

The X damage should be the total number of these spiders around. Have a number of them equal to the party's number join the fight every turn when you want to amp it up, more if they have really reliable AoE attacks.

>>49930758
Fear is the spice of life, anon.
A horde isn't dangerous when you can simply outrun them with ease, and this isn't simply a lateral or tunnel chase.
They are running on scaffolding, so flanks will happen often. Players who think they are safe because they are not in the thick of it will find themselves surprised.

>>49930801
How fast do these things move? Because Slowed is speed 2. And you'll have to shift to avoid opportunity attacks.

There's risk of being overwhelmed and then there's being literally incapable of moving out of range.

>>49930824
Anon, you are treating this as though it were a video game rather than a person who is directly controlling the opposing forces and can accurately gauge tempo, momentum and read the moment.
I get it, this is 4CHAN, but you are assuming others have no idea how to run a game with your words.
Yes, I know what slowed does, and I realize that if the players don't exercise something near to concern and care, they can be overrun.
That is part of the point, to impart a very real fear that they can be drowned in the tide.
That said, the tide withdraws and surges forward. They will, after so many struggles, force the horde back for a breather.

>>49930898
No, I'm concerned that the players, who are playing a game aimed at heroic fantasy, won't know how fucked they are the second they get close.

>I get it, this is 4CHAN, but you are assuming others have no idea how to run a game with your words.
It's 4chan, a lot of people on 4chan have never actually a tabletop RPG before. And quite a few others are jackasses.

>>49930936
If he goes with my >>49930772 post, it'll be like this:

>up until the point someone goes in close to at least 3 of them, they can run and take potshots backwards
>once someone gets surrounded by at least 3 of them, he is slowed, so the spiders can exactly match his pace if he double moves
>the others now need to reduce the number of spiders that can exactly follow the slowed dude below 3 and can't run ahead too far

It's probably best if the players first see these things in action on a henchman/other NPC, so they can gauge just how hard it is to get someone away from them.

>>49930936
Heroic fantasy != there are no dangerous moments, so why are you even making that analogy at all?
Unless you are equating heroic fantasy with "everything must fall before me", there are always situations which are untenable and must be fallen back from.
You seem to think this is an accident, rather than on purpose. I know my players, and I have keyed this in such a way as to teach them Rule 10 and why it is valid.
And if you really want to know why this what it is, look at the Fell's Five comic

>>49931063
No, you fucking moron, I'm saying that 4e combat is based about getting into the thick of it, not playing Left 4 Dead. So the default assumption is that players are kicking in doors and rushing in to sweep rooms.

That's not saying that there aren't dangerous moments or that "everything must fall before me", that's saying the system you're using encourages a different playstyle than your premise.

My entire point is that you need to make it clear what sort of campaign it's going to be before sitting down to play, because otherwise the players will make assumptions based off the mechanics as presented to them and get fucked over before they have a chance to access the situation.

See >>49931018 about how showing it in action on an NPC first is a good idea.

>>49931121
>that's saying the system you're using encourages a different playstyle than your premise.
You are factually wrong, but ok.
>My entire point is that you need to make it clear what sort of campaign it's going to be before sitting down to play
And I have. This is where the whole "assuming everyone is stupid except for yourself" thing is brought up again. You are also assuming a lot about players you know nothing about, thinking they have pored over the books and decided 4e must be played in an exact, inviolable fashion.
>get fucked over before they have a chance to access the situation
You mean any boss fight? Or custom creature that doesn't have abilities already listed in the books? You are actually saying that players should be shown how something is dangerous, and how to mitigate it in advance, rather than finding out.
Proceed with your histrionics about a game you aren't in, players you don't know, and circumstances I didn't list out because all I asked was for ideas outside my own head on dealing with a singular circumstance.

I would second the suggestion of alternating between minions and swarms. It seems the most effective solution

>>49931189
>You are actually saying that players should be shown how something is dangerous, and how to mitigate it in advance, rather than finding out.
Not him, but if the situation can become inescapable once you're in it, yes, you should show them how screwed things can become.

And you should always assume players are stupid. Not because they actually are, but because what's stupid to you may seem perfectly reasonable from the perspective of another player at that moment for reasons that can easily escape you. It prevents a whole lot of "I made this expecting you guys to do x, why didn't you do x?!" situations

>>49931327
>if the situation can become inescapable once you're in it, yes, you should show them how screwed things can become.
The point is to manage the tide, because no edition of D&D does inescapable horde well.
My plan was to send them in blocks/waves that can be beaten back if they are determined enough, but they will return in short order.
This way, they aren't entirely screwed if something goes awry (at first), they gain a grasp of the situation and how bad it is (which is necessary for them to actively become worried for their lives), and allows for short rests to be made so they can refresh themselves.
The only way the players can actually screw themselves is if they doggedly try to hold a position or try to push forward too far, wherein the big ones start coming out. As for maneuvering, that isn't possible, they are on suspended bridges between towers 130' up from the start.

>>49931395
>The only way the players can actually screw themselves is if they doggedly try to hold a position or try to push forward too far, wherein the big ones start coming out. As for maneuvering, that isn't possible, they are on suspended bridges between towers 130' up from the start.
They might actually try to hold their position, thinking the bridges were set up for the distinct purpose of bottlenecking the horde and letting them hack away at it without being overwhelmed

>>49931470
The horde is spiders, it is impossible to bottleneck.
What will happen is that they will be flanked ad eventually surrounded.
Fortunately, I have at least 2 players who can into basic tactics.

>>49931470
This was why I suggested making them tiny with climb. Just put an emphasis on tiny creatures being able to enter others squares without problem.

>>49925992
Sounds like shit DM syndrome.

>>49931395
That's a shit idea.

>>49932634
Go ahead, tell me why.
I got a few minutes before I let the thread 404.

>>49932670
That is not what the system is designed for. The system is designed for superhero play, not shitty horror flicks.

>>49932821
That's nice to know.

>>49931327
>>49931470
>>49932821
It's nice to see other anons that aren't stupid.

>>49932821
The unrelenting horde of mooks is pretty much of a staple tho. See also: both Avengers movies.

>>49933681
It's been a fair while since I've seen them, but are they ever actually threatened by the hordes? I always thought the hordes were used as super-chaff to show off how powerful everybody was, until an actual singular threat came in.

>>49933959
And what's different from using a ton of minions in 4e? I mean, of course in D&D you have the dice that could turn against the players, but you can stay into the XP budget and still pit the PCs against a lot of enemies. Narratively, the two situations are very close.

bump brought to you by Strike!

Soooo we went against all advice and decided to turn our session into a podcast. First session is split up into two parts, with part two being uploaded next week. Only about an hour long, would love to get some feedback.

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We play 5e though....

>>49938261
>Advertising 5e podcast.
>In a 4e thread.
>When there's a 5e thread.
I'll pass, since you're obviously retarded.

>>49938261
Retard.

I bet a Strike thread wouldn't die like this

>>49941282
Yeah, it would die within 30 replies.