/cofdg/+/wodg/ - Chronicles and World of Darkness General Thread

So will this whole One World of Darkness thing kill Deviant before it's even released?

>>49901912
1WoD is WoD only, CofD is a separate entity, paid to be quiet and just churn out toolbox content

>>49901861
No, I mean literally. Not internet literally. Literally literally.

Aspel and the random shitposter of the day.

Has anyone else read the Greywalker series?

I just forced myself to finish book four. I like the main character, but the writing is a chore, with lots of scenes feeling confusing or anticlimactic, and the worldbuilding feels like random shit.
I'm already four books in, so I feel like I'm going to stick with the story, but I don't know how long that will last when there's five more.

I just want a supernatural detective series that:
>Isn't Dresden Files
>Isn't crap

This is now a "Fix-it Fatima!" thread.

>how the fuck do I fix Celerity?

Is it me, or is the only way to negate a character with Celerity sending everyone else into Torpor another bitch-nigga with Celerity? Or padding out the Prince and all other high ranking officials with free dots in Fortitude? There doesn't seem to be any "paper-rock-scissors" solutions to Discipline abuse except Auspex vs. Obfuscate.

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>>49901953
I wish people wouldn't throw that word around simply for emphasis. English isn't everyone's first language around here. Ambiguity is the enemy of free communication, and the tool of Aspel.

>>49902155
What does Celerity do?
Lets you avoid firearms, boosts Defence, lets you go first, and lets you move fast.

Does it let you hit people harder?
Fuck no.
Just use enemies who are more accurate, decrease their defence through tilts, and/or use methods of conflict that don't use Defence.
I like bombs, gas, and the threat of the sun.

A bit of a simple question. Requiem says that fire automatically inflicts damage per turn of exposure. Does this mean simple being within a reasonable distance of a candle deals aggravated damage to a Kindred, even if they're not being set on fire by it?

>>49902605
Wrong understanding of exposure. If you're touching it you get burned

>>49901918
I love 2E on MU settings.

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>>49902614
This. Pretty sure it's not the heat that causes the damage, it's something mystical relating to the substance of fire and ancient curses. At least, that was the answer given on the Onyx Path Forums...

Also,
>full ass-rape stiffness
what other gems lie buried in Ericsson's creative writing?

>>49902614
Right, thanks for the clarification. I thought that seemed a little excessive.

>>49900188
This probably won't reflect at all in the 5th edition stuff, as it's from BNS. As far as that falling apart,they already run a couple of events that 'advance' the timeline of the LARP book metaplot, apparently the Lasombra Antitribu end up joining it, beating out the True Brujah and the remaining Ravnos.

As far as the Gangrel returning, the assumpion is to, y'know, make Gangrel playable in the highly political landscape that is a Camarilla game. Gangrel are popular yo.

>>49902296
He's talking OWoD celerity where you get an extra full action for each dot. So at Celerity 5 you can attack someone 5 times in 1 round.

>>49901912
Why should it?

>>49902891
Yeah, exactly. So what do I do? Celerity is broken all to hell, anyone who has it automatically trounces someone who doesn't in one-on-one combat.
Do I give major characters free dots in Fortitude? Temporis is too fucking stupid to use, let alone justify being known by the entire Council of Primogen. After all, if you can make someone repeat the same action, unaware, for hours, you use that power on a Kindred outdoors a few hours before dawn and they are FUCKED. Jesus, you could do it indoors and just rely on petroleum and a wooden match for cents on the dollar. So why wouldn't an antagonist just use that ability the first time they lay eyes on them?

>>49903174
I have just adapted over the rules from the LARP version before, which cuts down on the extra actions (you get one at 3, and one more at 5), and the other powers do other things. It's like...

1. Bump initiative by total dots in Celerity
2. Increase Dodge by +2
3. 1 extra action
4. increase Dodge by +2
5. 1 extra action

>>49901619
>>49902039
For anyone else who wants to read Greywalker.
https://www.sendspace.com/file/eectw7
Download the Kindle reader for PC to open the .mobi files.

Short version:
>Detective gets beaten and assaulted by a guy she was investigating, ends up dying for a few minutes and gains the power to see ghosts
>Almost immediately gets involved in ghostly business and vampire bullshit
>Makes friends with a witch
>Also an antiques guy and a hobo
>Now solves supernatural crime in Seattle
>But the circumstances of her death aren't what they seem

I liked the short story I read, so I know it [hopefully] gets better. It was the second best part of the Mean Streets anthology, after the Dresden Files short. But man, there's so much I don't like here. In the most recent book big bad monsters are introduced in the last four chapters and show up twice with no real explanation or backstory beyond "it's a thing". The climactic fight with someone who had a hand in her death feels anticlimactic. Characters are introduced and get killed to add tension within pages. It's hard to form a mental image of what's going on in a lot of scenes. Kat Richardson makes so many weird word choices.
There's also this obsession with explaining driving or walking directions. I don't need to be given a driving tour of Seattle, LA, and London. I don't know these locations and I don't want to Google a street map to follow the book's padding.

I like the characters, but seem to hate most everything else.

>>49902039
>Greywalker series
Only read the story in Mean Streets, I think it was ok, but I wasn't tempted to read more.

>I just want a supernatural detective series
Right at the moment I can think of only two:
Rivers of London - it is more police than detective, it's rather police, but still quite good.
and Low Town

>>49902882
>Gangrel are popular yo.
Always have been. Still, I would have liked a better justification than "blackmail".

>"I will spare you the indignity of being manipulated," bristled Jebediah Faustus, "these summer nights are too brief to waste time on... idle formalities."
>"You sent for me." Olaf said in a flat tone, more statement than question.
>"Yes. My sire worked with yours before the, uh-"
>"You mean, before we left your precious Camarilla over being used as... what is that mortal phrase... 'Cannon Fodder'." that same tone again, this time with a flat, heavy lidded stare, inhuman eyes boring into his.
>"...yes." Jebediah only paused a moment before continuing, "We all make sacrifices for the greater good, your sire.... and mine."
>Olaf turned and strode slowly to the faded tapestry against the southern wall before replying.
>"State your terms."
>"We need you back. You're the only Clan that can slip from City to City, and we desperately need couriers."
>"Why not use...?" The first question he had asked trailed off as he gestured with one hand.
>"Machines?" Faustus shook his head firmly. "No. Too easy to trick, to compromise. We need willing hands."
>"In exchange for..." Olaf turned back to the tapestry, trailing off in seeming disinterest.
>"Every Camarilla territory will allocate a hunting ground reserved for Clan Gangrel and it's affiliated Bloodlines."
>The pregnant silence hung heavy as both ancient beings stood, as still as corpses.
>"Done." Olaf touched a thin finger to the worn fabric inquisitively.
>"Do you like the tapestry? I'm told it's Danish, from the 13th century."
>Olaf gently rumbled in laughter, the first he could recall in....
>"It's Swedish shit," he grunted. "14th century. I think I saw it being woven, an age ago in the fortress of Ängsö Castle. Come, Jebediah. Let us talk more about these... territories... after a repast."
>The mention of blood made Jebediah's fangs throb. He graciously followed his guest out.

The book you own but regret paying money for.

Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand.

Holy shit guise. There's almost nothing of use in an entire book... nothing in here corroborates with anything else in the oWoD except Ends of Empire, which destroyed everything mentioned anyway and effectively nuked the entire Dark Umbra in an effort to undo the stench of this book.

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>research paranormal and conspiracies
>realize WoD is essentially real

I'm thinking of becoming a "girl" or a SJW so I can be popular too

>>49903620
"V20 - The Black Hand, A Guide to The Tal'Mahe'Ra" is pretty good though (excluding the art for the various bloodlines, it's shit). Since V20 is pretty agnostic when it comes to the events of the timeline, it allows for a lot more leeway and playing room when running a Black Hand coterie or introducing characters from the Black Hand as allies/enemies.

Does anyone have that one WoD powerlevel chart? The one with all the vamps and wolves and stigmatics and angels and demons?

>>49903422
It mentions debts and favors throughout that section, so blackmail is the assumption. Mostly it specifically states that the Tremere spoke out against leaving the Gangrel out of the world events, especially as the Camarilla dealt with a stop-and-go-sputter-out Gehenna, and so the Gangrel owe the Tremere for getting them back into the Camarilla, though they haven't been a pillar clan again (Assamites took that positions).

Also, I really like that bit of fiction you came up with.

Scion has funded!

>>49904674
>>>/tg/scion

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>>49904674

>>49904483
Do Stigmatics even have powers? I thought they'd just seen the workings of the God Machine and always could?

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>>49904853
No, they gain the ability to see the workings when they've been bather with Aether or something similar, they usually et one minor supernatural power as well.
>>49903620
Definitely Hengeyokai: Shapeshifters of the East. I was talking in the last thread about how W:TA sometimes falls to insulting cliches with the Tribes and WW's old Far East stuff was some of the worst in that regard. For some reason the Fera of the east are just Better than their foolish, non-enlightened Western counterparts, and they live in harmony with nature and they've beaten the shit out the Wyrm, etc...

So hypothetically, your ST'ing a VtR game. ThE guy playing a carthian gangrel gets pissed at the ventrue Lancea players for torturing him in an attempt to make him convert, he enacts revenge by blowing up the local Elysium with c4 explosives and cayses the death of the Prince in the blast.

What do you do?

>>49905235
How is targetting Elysium getting revenge on the Ventrue? This sounds very poorly considered.

Also, scrap whatever campaign you had planned, now it's a huge power-grab.

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>>49903620
>tfw when you are the only one who actually likes Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand

Say what you will about Dirty Secrets, but WoD: Gypsies and Time of Thin Blood are far, far worse.

>>49905452
I'm legitimately interested, what do you find redeemable in DSotBH? I kind of checked out when they laid-out the idea of them raising Kine to be vampires, as well as the secret Necromancer city in the Tempest that for some reason doesn't need blood, oh and mortals can live there...


WoD: Gypsies and WoD: Mafia do stand out to me as particularly god-awful. Time of Thin Blood I have never read, what's it's malfunction?

>>49905452

Dirty Secrets is actually a pretty good book if you think of it as a book that came from an alternate universe where Vampire embraced going Full X-Men with its tone.

>>49904325
I always wondered why they chose to bring that one back to V20. Was there a vote on it?

Back in the day, there were two books every WoD player and storyteller I ever met slagged up and down, two books that reduced young adults to ranting, ruddy faced offense. Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand and Gypsies.

Over time, my curiousity grew. The possible Humanity loss meant nothing to me. I had to possess those forbidden tomes of eldritch lore...

Dirty Secrets is an odd book. It feels like some kind of beta version that wasn't ever meant for public release. There are sections, like the Old Clan Tzimisce write-up, that are so light on it feels like there's a piece missing. There are always rumours going around that it was written by a guy who was "getting fired anyway," but I like to think it's the personal campaign notes from a gaming group made up of White Wolf employees who wanted epic-level characters.

Gypsies. Okay.... art sucks. if they were called "The Wagon Families" or something else made-up, with a fictional background based on a fictional religion, it could work. But instead WW sieze on an actual, real life, ethnic minority that suffered (still do, actually) very real persecution... and not because, as White Wolf claims, they have mystical powers and a permanent plenary indulgence on theft. Some of the storyhooks and bloodline powers are interesting, but the first dot of "knife dancing" seriously does nothing, and there are other telltale signs that nobody bothered to playtest these bright ideas. Ultimately, this is Ravenloft Gypsy, presented as the people of the Roma.... and that's why people hate the book. A rose by any other name wouldn't have pissed nearly as many people off.

>>49904650
Thank you.

>>49905235
Call a time out for 30 minutes while you come up with a new plan. Shit like this could attract - no, actually, in this day and age, it WOULD attract state and even federal law enforcement to investigate the blast, who caused it and why. Every other vampire in town will be pissed or afraid. Some may try to get even in the chaos, or claim more than they have. The princehood is open, man! Move your best pawn in to sieze it!!!

>>49903174
Use the DAV20 rules.

In reality, Celerity isn't terrible broken if you use the Revised multiple action rules. You have to spend a blood per action and they lose that dot for the turn for use as Dexterity. So someone using Celerity 5 to get 5 actions would only have their normal dexterity for actions. Not terribly broken.

>>49905588

You'll be happy to know that Dracula specifically wants to do a new Gypsies book to start off the line. He figures it'd go down better if it was titled "Opre Roma!"

>>49905765
I honestly cannot tell if you're being serious or not anymore, it's such a bad idea that I totally believe it.
>>49905624
> in this day and age, it WOULD attract state and even federal law enforcement to investigate the blast,
It pretty much always would have, you can't just go around blowing up buildings.
> Every other vampire in town will be pissed
And then the big name organization from out of town would descend upon them like the Wrath of God; there would be no way that their affairs would be their own after the Prince and many of the Primogen are merely incinerated like that.
> The princehood is open, man!
To whom? So fuck-off Ancilla and their group who may have in fact planted the bomb? No way, the best you can hope for is to come out with your fangs intact and a cushy job in the new regime.

Cna anyone find the entire short story of Full Ass-Rape Stiffness?

>>49903310
I forgot Simon R. Green's books.
Nightside series has some mystery elements and Ishmael Jones (I read only first part so far) is mystery too.

>>49905588
>permanent plenary indulgence on theft
Having experience from living in Eastern Europe I have to say this is regrettably mostly true.

>>49901619
This mega doesn't have CofD or Demon: The Descent

>>49905873

I am completely serious, he cites Gypsy as a book he'd like to do another one of as an example of how WoD will tackle social issues.

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>>49906134
Fuck. I get that Horror has always been about exploring social themes, but they should probably just stay the fuck away from *actual* ethnic groups since there is little way to make a compelling story out of them without either resorting to tokenism or stereotyping. There's a reason we never saw Iran: By Night or the KKK in the WoD.

>>49906071
Yeah, someone in last thread posted that one as having more oWoD stuff and instead of merging them or incuding both, OP just switched them
https://mega.nz/#F!rFIDxRRK!IEzkLlroRoPwmDqtxKRMsw
that should be the previous one

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>>49904325

Is there any setting synopsis that includes all "races"?

>>49907108
Beast core book

>>49907148
Does it really?

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So, lend someone interested in (oWoD) Mage a hand, considering he has had time to read only a few of the introduction pages.

Can a Mage halt his aging? Or would the state of how humanity perceives the world stop him/her? I'm just curious if a Mage can gain the 'life' experience of another supernatural with less mortality.

>>49907475
>pic

You sure you want oWoD?

>>49905588
>I always wondered why they chose to bring that one back to V20.

Much noise was made about said book,and there was a lot of discussions and debate, at least. They even freely admit in the opening pages of the book that they're quite aware that plenty of people outright hated "Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand" (you either loved it or hated it, and most seemed to hate it), so they set out to try to do their best to "fix it" for V20.

I mean, it's not the *best* book for the V20 line (in my opinion, that goes to "Hunters Hunted II" and "V20: Dark Ages"), but it's definitely a step up from its predecessor. Again, apart from the shitty art when it comes to the bloodlines.

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We fed our pet shark an angel corpse and now it's swimming through concrete, what do?

>>49907673
Weaponise it

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>>49904650
When I first heard Tremere bring the Gangrel back into Cam. I originally thought fckers using blood magic. Like the last dozen times, the writers have used the tremere to change the setting.

Like >>49903422 This seems more reasonable and logical approach. The ability of transitory mobility in a setting that assumes travel between cities is crazy dangerous, is a powerful bargaining tool.

Not to mention prince to prince / domain to domain have their views and holdovers toward Clan gangrel. Really the whole Clan-leaving-the-cam did was let individual gangrel leave cam domains if they choice to and have a safe place in the wilds. The Clan is strongly individualistic and as a whole they're non sect specific. Letting them go independent and having individuals into both sects was the way to go about it. Much like a Overland version of the Underground Nos.

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>>49905235
>pic related

>>49908218
>fckers
Stop.

>>49907475
Yes. Life 3.

At Life 5, it's built in.

>>49907508
Why couldn't an oWoD Mage wear a suit?

>>49908308

Thanks, that makes sense.

>>49907508

Very sure. I do like to use the CofD core book to make my muggles, but I'm an oWoD fan to the core. I love the lore to pieces. Or in pieces. Much the same thing really.

That said, some of the art has aged really fucking badly, and I like urban fantasy and horror art in general.

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>>49908298
Yeah they really blew it with the Tremere being the tech clan and the magic clan.

Salubri, Assamite, Technology, AntTribute Tremere, Assamite again.

>>49908468
Who the fuck are you replying to?

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>>49908482
I thought we were doing the whole Tremere are huge Mary Sues trend

>>49908531
You might be retarded.

>>49903699
*citation needed*

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>>49908544
So you're saying they're not MarySues?

>>49908578
Holy fuck, you are so god damn stupid you cannot decipher the meaning of an extremely short with two fucking words.

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>>49908606
Short What Anon?

>>49908655
Short post.

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>>49908663
I don't see how Anon's posts has anything to do with my posts. But I know you had to have a point you wanted to share with the class.

>>49908776
Tell me, what exactly do you think this post is about?
>>49908298

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>>49908789

>>49908468
>>49908482
>>49908531
>>49908544
>>49908578
>>49908606
>>49908655
>>49908663
>>49908776
>>49908789
>>49908804
Both of you need to shut the fuck up, stop fagging up the thread with your bullshit.
>>49908381
It comes down to certain game lines for me, like I really new the new Mage, Demon, Werewolf and the new Changeling, but Geist and V:tR can go to hell in comparison to their older counterparts.

>>49908881
>liking VtM more than VtR
>liking any of the old shit

wew lad

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>>49909110

>>49909110
>>49909166
Game babby here, what exactly is wrong with VtM?

As I understand it, the system itself and some (perhaps a good chunk) of the lore is convoluted, but it doesn't seem THAT bad.

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>>49908881
>VtM

>>49909110
>>49909274
>>>/v/
If you like requiem, that's fine. You do you. But don't be a fucking retard about it.

>>49909320
>But don't be a fucking retard about it.
>Thinking you're smarter than someone else while liking VtM
wew

>>49909268
>Assumptions that you'll give a shit about Metaplot
>Extensive backstory, such that lorefags will get pissy if you're even partially ignorant
>God-NPCs paraded in front of you, who you somehow can challenge or defeat
>"Diablerie is bad" says every Vamp, their jowels dripping with their kin's soul
>90s aesthetic (though that one's not universally bad)

I'm mostly "meh" about it though.
I'd enjoy a much lower powered version.

>>49901619
>How many of you have gone full noir? Maybe just half noir?
Not at all, not only I have never played noir campaign, but in case I would play one, I'm not sure I would be able to pull off character that would at least slightly fit this style while not being utterly ridiculous.

So I got to ask. What does Ascension mean for Mage the Ascension?

>>49909743
Moving to a different state of existence where you're more in sync with your chosen Spheres.

>>49909577
>>Extensive backstory, such that lorefags will get pissy if you're even partially ignorant
In my experience there's so much contradictory lore that any and all arguments are futile so most lorefags I know (including myself) just don't give a shit unless it's blatant bullshit

>"Diablerie is bad" says every Vamp, their jowels dripping with their kin's soul

Isn't one of the major points of V:TM how vampires are the biggest hypocrites around?

>90s aesthetic
>bad

Out of my face bro

Agree about 1 and 3

>>49909776
But what is this alternative existence? The realms of the avatars? Something above that?

>>49909815
>Actually liking the 90's

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>Gaining Facets in
this way costs no Experiences. A werewolf may discover other
Moon Gifts that are associated with her auspice at a cost of
5 Experiences, which unlocks the first dot Facet of the Gift.
Gaining further Facets costs 2 Experiences each, and they
must be purchased in ascending order. An Uratha can never
raise the dots in a Moon Gift above the rating of her current
auspice Renown.

What's that suppose to mean? There's only 5 moon gifts from each auspice.

>>49909863
>actually hating the 90's
Shit childhood detected

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>>49909816
*shrug*. It's nebulous by design.

>>49909876

It's future-proofing against any additional facets they publish later on.

So e.g. another book might have an alternate Full Moon 2 facet you can take.

>>49909577
Is nobody bothered about the fact that it makes no sense for Vampire societies to be the way they are?

>>49909933
In what way?

Does the Mega have Chronicles splats? I can only find Nwod and Owod shit on it and I need myself a Mage CoD book soon.

>>49909933

It all makes sense around the premise that if they don't make a societal organization, the humans would gang up on them and kill them.

Vampires are in the lower scale of power inside the oWoD canon. They need to help eachother and keep their more violent members to not call much attention for themselves.

>>49909950
>everybody knows what diablerie is
>there have been cases of stronger vampires getting ganked by shitty vampires
>despite that, the strongest vampires still surround themselves with and actively antagonize the rare handful of people left in the world that could actually kill them
>it isn't the norm for princes to blood bond newly embraced vampires into absolute submission every time, without exception

>>49909971
PAY

JEW

>>49910096
I'm not just Jewish I'm also poor as fuck

>>49910094

That'd be a really boring game. I'll take game-ability over narrative/setting consistency every time.

>>49910094
Because if they tried to do that they'd be taken down by lower generation vampires.

Basically they need to tolerate the backstabbers because if they try to do anything about it they'll get backstabbed

>>49910085
>there is no big vampire society
>some lone vampire fucks up, gets humans angry at him
>they kill the vampire
>they for some reason assume that there absolutely must be more like him and thus begin a huge hunt on all other vampires
This doesn't make any sense.

>>49910135
If who tried to do what? How does getting rid of weak backstabbers result in getting backstabbed by strong people?

>>49910181
If the prince tried to blood bond the newly embraced vampires.

>How does getting rid of weak backstabbers result in getting backstabbed by strong people?
Because the weak backstabbers are the strong backstabber's pawns

>>49910153

It does, it's the whole point of the Hunter: The Reckoning books.

Humans find a magical creature, survive the encounter and go on to kill more monsters.

If not for their organization, vampires would have been hunted to death centuries ago. Being weak to fire and sunlight are MASSIVE weaknesses in a world filled with both.

>>49910241
I think vampires would learn not to be retarded around humans whether there was a society or not, especially if they start actually dying to them. And I think it's going to be very easy to see it coming because if the hunters somehow convince the general public to the existence of vampires, it'll turn into a big dumb witch hunt that'll result in a lot of innocents getting killed, like it already historically has.

And if the hunters don't manage to convince people who didn't encounter vampires directly then it's going to be the exact same shit it already is. Hunters are still hunting vampires even though there is a society in place, so the justification of hunters being kept at bay by the society doesn't actually work.

>>49910499
The vampire society is mainly to rein in the more ambitious vampires in, i.e. the ones who want to openly enslave mankind instead of covertly ruling it from the shadows, as well as to stop vamps from killing each other

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>>49910094
>it isn't the norm for princes to blood bond newly embraced vampires into absolute submission every time, without exception

It was the norm until younger vamps realized that they were getting fucked over and out. Then you had the anarch revolt which led directly to the Inquisition and the Sabbat and we all know how that turned out.
>pic related

>>49910572
But when you make yourself known, other vampires might diablerize you. It's incentive enough to work from the shadows.

>>49910241
>a handful of people thinly spread across the world managed to stay connected enough in ye olden days to create and enforce a unified set of behavioral rules

>>49910726
M A G I C

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLfEH_TA5Z0
This is how I Brujah

>>49910585
That is some of the most retarded art I have ever seen.

>>49909876
>>49909903
Actually, Gibbous Moon at least has a second Moon Gift. It's in a blog post. Like the other anon says, it's future proofing.

>>49909933
>>49910094
Of all the complaints I see--and make--this is the one I don't understand.
For one thing, the societies presented in the game are never as power hungry and literally-backstabby as the way most players portray them. It's not a shark tank where they're waiting to devour your soul at the first moment they can get you alone. Diablerie IS bad, and it's scary, and it's uncomfortable, and it's sometimes worth it. But vampires aren't going around chomping into each other at a moment's notice. I wouldn't even say it's like Game of Thrones, simply because modern vampire society a) is still going to have more morals from a lifetime of living among kine who've had a more strengthened social contract, and b) is going to have way more ways of sussing out people who break that social contract.
I'm not saying Diablerie would never happen, but acting like it's one big game of Assassin is sort of silly, and misses the bigger point. Vampires need each other. They *want* each other. They're lonely predators and they need people around them, even if they're dangerous and going to use each other as pawns.

Just because you're dead doesn't mean you suddenly become completely amoral, nor does being undead mean that you're willing or able to survive on your own.

Saying it makes no sense that every vampire hasn't eaten another is like saying it makes no sense that every politician hasn't murdered each other. Fuck, even in Game of Thrones they can't get away with murdering people at the drop of a hat.

>>49910153
You mean exactly how people react to terrorists?
Why would you assume it was just one guy in the whole world who is a magical undead monster first place?

>>49910774
It's oWoD, everything is retarded there

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>>49910499
>pic related

Cleans up all the bullshit. cause bitches be lazy

>>49911277
As much as I'm ambivalent about WoD, I think playing a Technocracy game might help me appreciate it more.

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>>49910996
but ANON how am I suppose to [pic related] if I can;t eat bitches?

>>49911366
Barter?

>>49911319
It really does.

They're the only heros striving for the advancement of Mankind as a whole. No matter the cost. Singlehandedly took down the dragons and dragged humanity kicking and screaming into the modern age. So from all of the technocracy You're Welcome.

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>>49911319
>mfw playing a Middle-aged Void Engineer Neutralization Specialist Corps agent who lost all of his sanity points before I laid down the first dot.

"I'm in the team room with a bridesmaid's dress, a bottle of Wild Turkey and a .44 Magnum."

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>>49909743
It's like Buddhist ideal of escaping the cycle of reincarnation but not necessarily wedded to that specific idea.

It's to attain the natural, fully actualized state of Humanity by escaping the constraints placed upon you by the world. It is the goal of three of the four major factions to help the rest of Humanity ascend with them. The fourth wants to drag creation kicking and screaming back down into the primordial state from which it arose.

Okay, the spell in Mage called As Above, So Below allows you to "buff" a Yantra, or the symbolic thing you are using to power your spell (a hospital for a healing spell, batteries for a spell involving electricity or heat or light, etc). Mechanically this gives you 9again (or 8again with +1 reach) on a spell involving said Yantra. Now, I had a question: can you reverse this? Can you take away bonuses from a Yantra? Can you take away 10again? Can you make it so a spell automatically triggers paradox/has fake reach if they use said Yantra?

Now, this spell is a Ruling spell. Ruling spells are ones that make something do something it is normally able to do, even if it is unlikely to do that thing, such as using Fate to make a coin only land tails up, or Matter to do so, or using Forces to turn on a light without the switch. Things that can happen but aren't likely to.

So ultimately the question is can something, somewhere, someone in the Fallen World NOT be a symbol even if it is possible for them to be one? If they can, in what situations would this happen "naturally"? Or would such occurrences mandate Abyssal Interference?

>>49910499
>>49910726

I used the hunters as an example. Humanity, as a whole, more likely than not wouldn't just sit on their asses and not do anything againist a whole race that preys on them if they knew they actually existed.

You also forget that vampires love being the ones in power and having several fingers in many pies, in politics, in hollywood, etc.

IF they were actually recognized as a real threat by the human world, all that sweet deal they worked centuries to get would crumble, because every day there would be SWAT teams and the fucking army running after them.

Working together to keep MOST of the vampires in line so they can keep all the luxuries and resources the big vampires acquired through the ages is most interesting for said vampires and the lower vampires, once humans, can understand that being rich, powerful and drunk on blood is very desireable.

>>49911404

Aren't they responsible for killing the anti-diluvian in that mission module in VtM?

>>49911404
they are also inadvertently denying humanity their birthright of Awakening

>>49912246
meh, they give you the golf clap if you do though. and they only take you down if you're like a huge asshole about it.

>>49909971
Learn to fucking google.

"mage the awakening 2nd edition" pdf share

You'll find tons of links.

>>49912157
My two instinctive reactions to this are;
1) Hmm. This should work.
2) Hmm. This should include the Abyss.

>>49911414
What is this picture from?

>>49912228
If you're talking about Zapathasura, the Ravnos one, not single-handedly. He had already fought for a week straight against an army of Kuei-Jin, a sept of Garou, and the equivalent of 3 Methuselah Kuei-jin who magicked up a storm to keep out the sun so they could fight during the day. It was already weakened from the battle when they dropped the spirit nukes that killed EVERYTHING ELSE except for Zapathasura; and then the focused sunlight from the orbital satellites supposedly killed it.

>>49912607

Yeah, that one. I really forgot all the other factions, I just remembered the solar satellite strike.

>>49912228
Antediluvian.
From before the flood, not against the flood.

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>>49912568
No idea.

>>49912157
>can you reverse this?
Hell no. At least, not with Ruling.

You could render something incapable of being used as a Yantra with Veiling however.

Kind of a weird Mage question. Let's say I transform myself into a lobster and just chill in my own personal lobster oriented sanctum for like a century. When the spell ends will I age until my body catches up to what my actual age is?

>>49913494
Well for a start your body would Lobster body would die long before you reached the century mark. The "centuries old" thing is a myth.
Secondly you'd probably have "aged" proportionatlly to the lifespan of whatever form you adopted.

If you want a one-way trip into the future, go see an Acanthus.
Temporal Stutter (Time 4) can send you forwards in time (unchanged) to the end of the spell.

>>49913630
>Secondly you'd probably have "aged" proportionatlly to the lifespan of whatever form you adopted.
Actually, scratch that. That sounds stupid, especially if a Mage ever turned into a small insect.
You'd probably just age at the normal, human rate.
Unless you had another spell ticking to slow down your rate of aging.

I agree with >>49913630 that lobster's aren't immortal but biologic immortality is possible there is a jelly fish that cycles between it's adult and juvenile form forever until it's eaten or dies from illness.

Whether a mage ages doing this I'm not sure maybe Dave can chime in if he's bored. You don't have to transform into a jellyfish to do this in my opinion it should be possible with a Life••• 'Transform life' spell.

Real question is why you want to do this? And how much of an act of hubris it would be.

>>49905873
>> The princehood is open, man!
>To whom?

Not the snot nose punks that planted the bomb, esse. I'm talking a bigwig, like a surviving Primogen.

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>>49905993
>>permanent plenary indulgence on theft
>Having experience from living in Eastern Europe I have to say this is regrettably mostly true.

Yeah? Well I lived in the UK for 9 months, where thieving bastards were thieving bastards, their ethnicity had nothing to do with it. A chav burgling your house is no different to a pikey - either way, your fucking TV license is useless now.

>>49914146
>how much of an act of hubris it would be
Attempting to extend (not indefinitely, mind you) your lifespan through Life Magic wouldn't really be considered Hubristic at all by most.

>>49907475
Life 9 is immortality. It's why the Tremere saw kindred blood as a shortcut.... fear of death is a powerful motivation.

Failing that, you could probably jury-rig an effect out of Time (slow aging) or Entropy (slow decay).

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>>49914270
I would probably assign you permanent paradox for that.

>>49914286
Isn't life 9 true immortality?

At Life five, the resonance just halts the aging process.

>>49914309
Go away Ascension, nobody wants you.

>>49909716
Watch "Blue Velvet", or "Blade Runner".... hey, even "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" All are examples of how noir principles can be stretched to accomodate other genres. Mostly it's about lighting, gritty content, everyone being corrupted or corruptable, the hero gets roughed up at least once.... and don't trust the beautiful woman that walks into your office. ESPECIALLY if she's blonde.

A Promethean who came to life as a freak accident involving the spark of life and a farmer's Straw Man. He exists only to scare away birds and make specious arguments.

>>49914331
I think that >>49907475 would disagree with you and No, Aspel. You don't want us. Thankfully, we don't care about what you want.
>>>/d/

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>You can continue playing a demon at 0 Cover (also known as the Burned) as long as you can keep her alive, but that’s easier said than done. As long as a demon is Burned, she suffers the following effects:
>• She has no human form; she’s always in her true, demonic state.
>• She automatically gains the Blown and Hunted Conditions. These Conditions can’t be resolved until she gains a new Cover.
>• She cannot regain Cover; she has to establish a new Cover altogether (see p. 116) in order to get her rating back above 0.

>Blown (Persistent )
>Resolution: Destroy your Blown Cover identity.

>become Blown by the destruction of one's last remaining cover identity
>must destroy the blown cover identity to recover
???
So do they have to both gain a new Cover, then destroy THAT new Cover (after also getting a second Cover to hop over to) to resolve the condition?

>>49914651
I think they just mean you have to get rid of the 0-level cover.

>>49915022
Can't. Dropping to Cover 0 and destruction are literally synonymous, so that's what put you on the hot plate in the first place.

>If a demon’s Cover is ever reduced to 0, that Cover identity is irrevocably destroyed. Any supporting details (house, car, job, etc.) are likewise subsumed by the Cover’s destruction; any humans who knew the character’s Cover identity lose their memories of it. If the character has multiple Cover identities, she can switch to another one as normal (see p.118), but if that was her only Cover, she becomes one of the Burned.

>>49914386
>Implying I'm the only one who hates Ascension
I don't even think I posted in this thread all day.

>>49914651
>>49915087
Obviously they mean stop being Cover 0.

>>49915114
>admits to being Asspel
>>/d/

Back in 2nd Ed. vampire they suggested a mash-up with another RPG setting if you got bored with the usual stuff. If memory serves, the example given was Twilight 2000, the eerily prescient game that predicted an endless war in our era (although admittedly it set it in Eastern Europe instead of the Middle East).

Has anyone ever mashed CofD or oWoD together with the fluff from another game? How did it work out?

inb4 the purists start screaming about Heresy

>>49915087
Hmm. Then it's idiotically phrased

>>49915235
FOR FUCKS SAKE!
Let your obsession with other posters be. This kind of shit is more annoying than fuckin Aspel itself! AND THAT IS SAYING A FUCKING LOT!

>>49915252
>Has anyone ever mashed CofD or oWoD together with the fluff from another game? How did it work out?
>inb4 the purists start screaming about Heresy
Several. There's even a series of PDFs to do that. Translation guides.

>>49915281
That's not even me. Are you just going to harass anyone you think is me until you get banned?

>>49915289
>>/d/

>>49915289
Is this your fabled inability to comprehend jokes at work?

>>49915306
Someone asking of people have done a thing that's books for is a joke?

>>49915114
"Obviously" they are completely shit at writing if
>These Conditions can’t be resolved until she gains a new Cover.
was remotely meant to mean
>These Conditions are resolved as soon as she gains a new Cover.

Because it doesn't resemble that in the slightest.

>>49915310
Your reading comprehension is a joke.

>>49915323
>shit at writing

I'm afraid part of the problem is how utterly fucking useless the "editors" of the modern OPP / WW books are.

There's an enormous amount of bloat - that's recognised by everyone regardless of whether they're discussing miniature essays in margins about "gender is a social construct" bullshit or random diatribes in the body of text that only seem there to pad the word count - but worse than that is the chop-and-change layout, badly worded rulesets and mechanics that feel like no-one ever bothered to playtest them. Any editor worth their salt would have carefully re-worded your example so that it was clear to anyone who read it.

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Whats her and her brothers Auspice?

>>49915114
That makes no fucking sense. Do you know the sole effect of the Blown Condition?

>the God-Machine has your frequency and the only way to lose it is to destroy the compromised cover. You can’t spoof angels, God-Machine cultists, or anyone with the Unseen Sense (God-Machine) Merit.

A condition that is completely pointless for one of the Blown, who is stuck in demonic form, since you can never spoof in demonic form regardless.

Its presence only possibly makes sense if it applies to your next Cover. Either it shouldn't be there at all, or your completely made-up meaning of what they "meant" to say is bullshit.

>>49915323
>>49915411
>>49915376
You found somewhere the rules are sloppy. Do you want a cookie?
It doesn't take much effort to understand what's going on here. I mean, for starters you couldn't *have* the Blown Condition, since you don't have a Cover to begin with. But it seems quite clear that they mean that you have the effects of the Blown Condition (the God-Machine knows about you, you can't Spoof, you gain a Beat whenever God-Machine agents find you) that goes away when you stop being Burned.

Yes, by RAW, this is all very impossible. But it is not some glaring editorial oversight causing untold amounts of confusion. Either we've got an un-updated copy, or several volunteer nitpickers on the forum didn't have a problem with it.
"Put a condition on a thing that can't have that condition" isn't all that uncommon.

>>49915441
>random hostility towards strangers
>states obvious

ok

>>49915470
I'm sorry if I'm a little annoyed at people repeatedly bringing up minor problems and going "that makes no fucking sense" "they're shit at writing" "this is fucking useless editors" when something seems so clear to me that I didn't even notice there would be a problem in the first place.
If you don't want hostility when asking a question, don't be hostile when you're first given the answer.

>>49915537
FFS, is even being annoyed at the Anti-Aspel Brigade reason to be pointed out of the thread now!? I like weapons, should I be in /k/ instead!?
NO! BECAUSE YOU CAN'T FUCKING DISCUSS /TG/ SHIT THERE!

>>49915512
You have to admit, the WoD books past and present often need a few adjustments "in the field," as it were, before a happy medium is achieved. For example, in oWoD, dropping the difficulty by 1 is far, far more effective than adding another die in terms of probability. Therefore, high level powers should affect difficulty, while low level powers should affect the number of dice rolled.

It doesn't seem like too much to ask for, does it? A game that isn't hilariously broken from the moment you open the Core and roll up a character? At what point did you stop expecting game designers to do their job?

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>>49915596
Hi!
This is /tg/. Here, we talk about "traditional gaming" in all it's forms, be they boardgame, tabletop roleplay or miniature battlegames.

Any conversation that ties even partially into these subjects is acceptable.

We, however, no longer wish to talk to Aspel. Hell, we're sick of even discussing him. Any posters that resemble Aspel will be immediately directed to /d/. Any posters that resemble Aspel false-flagging will be directed to /d/. Other off-topic stuff may be caught in the crossfire, but what can you do?

We apologise for any inconvenience caused, and hope you continue to use 4chan for your social interactions.

Sincerely,
Anonymous.

>>49915612
No doubt. I'm not arguing that the editing is the best. But the real problems ("this rule doesn't seem to exist" "how this interacts with a very important thing should be mentioned" "why the fuck is this merit in a different chapter" "this thing doesn't actually work as intended") rarely seem to get brought up here. It's always tiny little nitpicks where something isn't spelled out perfectly, but also doesn't need to be spelled out perfectly.

When I see someone complain about something where one word [or common sense] would solve their problem and they act like the game is unplayable, it's like watching someone try to find something hidden behind a lamp and they don't want to look behind the lamp.

That's quite a different beast compared to oWoD's wonky difficulty mechanics. It's also important to note that when these games are playtested, they're not playtested for mathematical rigor so much as gamefeel.

>At what point did you stop expecting game designers to do their job?
I know it's a fallacy, but I honestly want to see anyone who says this make their own game.
It's not that I don't expect them to do their job. It's that I don't see not spelling everything out to be that big a deal. It's like a teacher taking points off for bad handwriting.

>>49915650
Your post is off topic, and for someone sick of discussing Aspel, you sure are doing a lot of it.
You've also been asked to leave.
>>>/trash/

>>49909971
refer to >>49906363

>>49915512
To be honest cover and its mechanics as a whole are written in rather confusing manner. Maybe "shit at writing" it's too strong, but there is still a hell lot of room for improvement.

>>49915851
What's wrong with Cover?
The only part of it that I find vague as fuck is the Pacts, which are only slightly better than Changeling, in that Pacts don't let you load up on whatever traits you want for promising you'll do that thing you were already going to do.

Pacts don't explain:
... what happens if you get some physical feature (like a limp, which is even an example in the book and still basically unexplained; does it heal someone?)
... where the physical aspects of a Cover come from (like it's looks, or papers or house, or even name; remember, you're taking relationships, nothing else)
... how you actually weave together a new Cover
... how much Cover a Soul Pact is worth
And a few other things I can't remember because tonight is the first I cracked the book open in over a year.

>>49906363
Whoops. I misunderstood what that poster was saying when he linked it. I thought he meant his mega had newer stuff, not that he had oWoD stuff that wasn't in the first.

>>49915705
I contend that nothing seems tested, mechanic or math. I'm talking about basic, core mechanics of the oWoD that right out of the gate need a house rule to prevent abuse or shitty experiences.

Celerity?
Generation?
Willpower being so cheap there's no reason to start without 10 points?
Stargazer Lupus Ahroun?
The Gangrel clan flaw?

These are mechanical problems, but there are also fluff issues that the modern books don't address. Surprisingly these details are often there in 1e stuff, but got dropped in later editions.

What happens when Kindred die the final death, what does it look like?
Do Kindred leave fingerprints, hair or other forensic evidence, or does it crumble to dust in seconds, like a severed limb would?
Are Kindred fangs always extended?
Why are Changeling Satyrs hypersexual, even if they're youngsters aged 6 - 13?
Why aren't Garou pressured into having children, if they're the last of a dying race?
What exactly is Ascension, and why is it even that desirable?
What exactly is Golconda, and why have there never been hard and fast rules published in 20 years?
What incentive in Wraith is there to even attempt resolving Fetters and "letting go", when they can stay in the Shadowlands for centuries and half the population either don't believe in Transcendence or don't see the difference between it and Oblivion?

The end result is that every book - every. Single. Book. I have ever bought - has required "painting and assembly" before it was ready for use.

>game design
I've done it. We stripped the rules to a single die roll with floating difficulty levels and used glass beads for health or mana or whatever. Almost but not quite AMBER, I suppose. The rest was window dressing for whatever one-shot we ran that week.

At the end of the day, it's easy. You try the mechanics, and if they don't work, you tweak them until they do. Except, that shouldn't be the responsibility of the anon that paid nearly $100 for a copy of their core rulebook.

>>49915710
>>/d/
:)

>>49912810
Veiling can only Hide something

>>49916017
How can you use a Yantra if you can't mystically see it?

>>49915995
>I'm talking about basic, core mechanics of the oWoD
And I'm talking about people's minor grievances with Chronicles.

oWoD is dumb, I'm not arguing that. Although some of your concerns are weird.
>Generation?
It's a dumb concept, but what's the problem mechanically?
>Stargazer Lupus Ahroun?
What about them?
>The Gangrel clan flaw?
What's wrong with it? It's almost better than nWoD 1e's, although there's no mechanics tied to having bestial features, other than looking weird.

>What happens when Kindred die the final death, what does it look like?
I feel like that's explained somewhere.
>Do Kindred leave fingerprints, hair or other forensic evidence, or does it crumble to dust in seconds, like a severed limb would?
Why would it? Also, if limbs crumble to dust, wouldn't all of a Kindred crumble in Final Death?
>Are Kindred fangs always extended?
I am like 90% sure that's explicitly stated
>Why are Changeling Satyrs hypersexual, even if they're youngsters aged 6 - 13?
Because they are. That's not really a fluff thing, it's just something you find uncomfortable.
>Why aren't Garou pressured into having children, if they're the last of a dying race?
Aren't they?
>What exactly is Ascension, and why is it even that desirable?
I feel like this has definitely been stated.
>What exactly is Golconda, and why have there never been hard and fast rules published in 20 years?
I'm also pretty sure this at the very least has rumours. And are there no rules? nWoD had rules right in the corebook.
>What incentive in Wraith is there to even attempt resolving Fetters and "letting go", when they can stay in the Shadowlands for centuries and half the population either don't believe in Transcendence or don't see the difference between it and Oblivion?
Because that's the goal. It's the buy-in, and that's all there is to it.

>>49915995
>What incentive in Wraith is there to even attempt resolving Fetters and "letting go", when they can stay in the Shadowlands for centuries and half the population either don't believe in Transcendence or don't see the difference between it and Oblivion?

Because the alternative is being a static being that Oblivion slowly erodes down to dust over the long eternities?

>>49915995
>owod

Well there's your problem right there Anon

>>49915995
>I've done it. We stripped the rules to a single die roll with floating difficulty levels and used glass beads for health or mana or whatever. Almost but not quite AMBER, I suppose. The rest was window dressing for whatever one-shot we ran that week.
>At the end of the day, it's easy. You try the mechanics, and if they don't work, you tweak them until they do. Except, that shouldn't be the responsibility of the anon that paid nearly $100 for a copy of their core rulebook.
Again, I don't disagree with you that oWoD is a mess. I still think most of your complaints about it listed here are nitpicky and seem obvious even to me, someone who doesn't play or like oWoD, but I'm not going to defend the system.

But I feel like you're drastically overstating how bad the rules are all the same. I doubt your system is likely to hold up to mechanical rigor--although it sounds like it's not really much more than freeform--and for most people they'd rather a system that's clunky to one that they have to build themselves.

I feel like most people want perfect rules, and don't realize how difficult to impossible that is. And when they don't get perfect rules, they get angry and act like the developers are just completely slacking off.

Yes, most games are going to have areas where the developers could have done better, or where players run into unforeseen consequences. But that doesn't mean that they're shit at their job, it means they're human.

I mean for shit sake the Masquerade designers didn't even have much in the way of game design to look at and study when they made their shitshow of a rulesset. They just made Shadowrun a d10 game about vampires.

>>49916054
If you knew about the yantra before the veiling happened. I still know my magic wand works, if you veil it from my magical senses. Easy fix. spell pot has to overcome yantra bonus + sympathy

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>>49915995
Well you're a fucking retard. Let me take you to school.

>Celerity?
Has changed in every single edition. here's the most recent fix. .pdf related. It also has rules limiting splitting dice pools in combat, cutting back on the extra action fuckery.


>Generation?
Shit happens, life sucks, sometimes mom's a badass. A starting character still won't get traits above five.

>Willpower being so cheap there's no reason to start without 10 points?
Consider that a sop to the players in the form of a cheap insurance policy. It's still going to suck away 2/3'rds of your points to raise it from five to ten if you specifically maximized courage rather than your other virtues. And then you'll spend more to raise your humanity from five and your virtues will still suck. In the meantime, you won't have shit for your skills or your attributes.

>Stargazer Lupus Ahroun?
Now brought in line with other Lupus Ahrouns that weren't much less abusive. By, like, one willpower point. Stop memeing and keep in mind that Lupus have to improve a number of abilities via experience rather than from purchasing them outright.

>The Gangrel clan flaw?
Lessened in V20 and behavior contingent. It literally has no mechanical effects unless you bring them on yourself or you have a shitty ST.

>Final Death
They wither to nothing. This has been in the game since revised.

>Fingerprints and forensic evidence
Not unless they're on humanity and simulating life or they put their fingers in dust. This was, again, in revised.

>Extended fangs.
No. In the game since 1e

>Childiling Satyrs.
They haven't gone through puberty yet even though they will be once they hit college.

>Pressured to breed.
They are. The Furies advancement requires that they move through the maiden-MOTHER-crone cycle and the Get are all like "I don't give a fuck if you're gay. Knock up some nice kinfolk girl and go back to your boyfriend later. Just try and think of his ass."
>Ascension
(cont.)

>>49916114
>the Masquerade designers didn't even have much in the way of game design to look at and study
What? They had 16 years of game design to look at.

>>49916071
>>I'm talking about basic, core mechanics of the oWoD
>And I'm talking about people's minor grievances with Chronicles.
Found your first problem.
>>Generation?
There's no reason for players to not max it out at chargen, resulting in homeless impoverished 7th Generation vampires less than 10 years dead.
>>Stargazer Lupus Ahroun?
Hopelessly broken combination, leading to a min/maxed combat tank that's useless in polite society, politics, or anything more complex than "KILL HIM".
>>The Gangrel clan flaw?
V20 gives wishy-washy "temp changes" and signals they can become permanent without saying why. Unlike other clan flaws, this one leads to an unplayable character quickly, in a clan that has no native access to Obfuscate.
>>What happens when Kindred die the final death, what does it look like?
>I feel like that's explained somewhere.
Yes. In 1st edition. "age catches up quickly". There is no mention in v20, which was the one supposed to bring in new players.
>>Do Kindred leave fingerprints, hair or other forensic evidence, or does it crumble to dust in seconds, like a severed limb would?
Important in today's forensic investigations, Masquerade, etc. but never discussed. Also, if the part about time catching up is left out, players don't even that part to conclude from.
>>Are Kindred fangs always extended?
>I am like 90% sure that's explicitly stated
If it is, I haven't found it.
>>Why are Changeling Satyrs hypersexual, even if they're youngsters aged 6 - 13?
>Because they are.
Not good enough. Most six year olds don't fuck everyone they meet.
>>Why aren't Garou pressured into having children, if they're the last of a dying race?
>Aren't they?
If they are, it's not mentioned. Not even in Kinfolk: Unsung Heroes, which was supposed to be about things like that.

>>49915995
>ascension
See >>49912050

>Golconda
Hard and fast rules have existed since second edtion. The guidance given has been "make a plot out of it."

>Wraith and "Letting Go"
It's called transcendence. See above.

>>49916071
>>>(cont)
>>What exactly is Ascension, and why is it even that desirable?
>I feel like this has definitely been stated.
Unbelievably, no. If it was, it's 1e fluff. The only clue in mechanics is letting go of Foci, and that's not even an option for Technocracy characters in M20. It seems reasonable that different Traditions and Crafts have their own definition, but that doesn't appear. What we get instead is the usual "stereotypes" bit that never offers anything except "we rule, you suck, avoid X".
>>What exactly is Golconda, and why have there never been hard and fast rules published in 20 years?
>I'm also pretty sure this at the very least has rumours.
Yes, vague stuff that leaves it "entirely up to the storyteller". Fuck that, why are we paying money for a book that tells us to do all the work for them?
>>What incentive in Wraith is there to even attempt resolving Fetters and "letting go", when they can stay in the Shadowlands for centuries and half the population either don't believe in Transcendence or don't see the difference between it and Oblivion?
>Because that's the goal. It's the buy-in, and that's all there is to it.
Not good enough. Without sufficient reward, there's no reason to risk, and that is Game Design 101 shit. At least the "rumours" for Golconda included rumoured benefits. Transcendence, you vanish. Oblivion, you vanish. So what the fuck is the difference? Where's any incentive at all to even try? All they have to do is say Transcendence leads to your soul going to somewhere lovely in the High Umbra, but do they? No, anon, they do not.

>>49915441
>You found somewhere the rules are sloppy. Do you want a cookie?

Why are you so defensive about your favorite game of pretend?

>>49916182
>There's no reason for players to not max it out at chargen, resulting in homeless impoverished 7th Generation vampires less than 10 years dead.

Under masquerade rules, you can only start at eighth and, hence, not bust the cap on level five stat limits.

>>49915933
>What's wrong with Cover?
Partially you answered yourself +
>At low Cover, for example,
>she has a closet full of suits, but they’re all the same suit —
>not the same style of suit but the exact same suit, down to the
>slightly frayed right cuff and the faded mustard stain on the
>tie. Likewise, her home might be a basement in a building that
>shouldn’t have one, or the fifth unit on the floor of a building
>that only has (and only has room for) four apartments per floor.
How is this supposed to work? Isn't this gross compromise in itself?
Does taking action out of character of your cover count if there is no one tell it?

(there is actually written how much Cover a Soul Pact is worth, it's Primum dots + result of roll Wits + Manipulation)

>>49916114
>>49916114
>I feel like most people want perfect rules, and don't realize how difficult to impossible that is.
I'd be happy with something that made me feel like the designer even tried it before putting it in the book, and I feel like that's not happening.

The reason the rules are barely more than freeform is because they're optimised for playing with a room full of people off their tits. Complex mechanics get difficult when a person can't even piss straight.

>shadowrun
Nooooo, not quite. If you go back and look at 1e, the art is all moody pieces of various undead standing around, doing random stuff but looking monstrous. There wasn't the same emphasis on combat. That changed the moment V:tM went wide, because players wanted to do action-based stuff. They wanted rules for car chases, explosions, and guns. Lots of guns.

Skip to Revised. Pictures of warriors, fights, force and violence everywhere, as well as moody pieces.

If you want to blame someone over the emphasis on guns, hacking and action over "personal horror" and artistic pieces evaluating the true nature of the human condition, blame the adoring public.

>>49916247
>Does taking action out of character of your cover count if there is no one tell it?

That is a conundrum. Wouldn't 'reality itself' count as an observer, since that's arguably who you're fooling primarily, instead of human society?

Was there any guidance on which of your multiple Covers suffers the loss of Cover for failed compromise rolls that happen when you're not IN any cover?

Is murder in demonic form an extra compromise?

>>49916142
But that's not how Veiling works. You're cut off from the Symbolism.

>>49916164
>Lessened in V20 and behavior contingent. It literally has no mechanical effects unless you bring them on yourself or you have a shitty ST.
It SHOULD have a mechanical effect, though. It's not much of a flaw otherwise.

>>49916167
What games existed in 1990? What resources would they have to learn about and study those games before the internet?

>>49916182
>Found your first problem.
That I play a better game?

>There's no reason for players to not max it out at chargen, resulting in homeless impoverished 7th Generation vampires less than 10 years dead.
Fluff. Fun.
Most games have things where there's no reason not to max it out (except for having nothing else). People don't minmax because it's boring. The groups themselves should set limits on what is or isn't acceptable for players to start at. For instance, in my games I rule that no one can start with ranked traits higher than 3 without my permission.

>Important in today's forensic investigations
There are a lot of things not spelled out. If you feel that they shouldn't leave fingerprints because they don't sweat or have residue, that's up to you or your ST. It's not something that needs to be spelled out.

>Not good enough. Most six year olds don't fuck everyone they meet.
Most six year olds also aren't magical reincarnated faeries.

>Without sufficient reward, there's no reason to risk, and that is Game Design 101 shit.
Boy, I bet you hate Promethean. "Peacefully end your tortured existence" is a good reason.

>>49916216
>I'm sorry if I'm a little annoyed at people repeatedly bringing up minor problems and going "that makes no fucking sense" "they're shit at writing" "this is fucking useless editors" when something seems so clear to me that I didn't even notice there would be a problem in the first place.
>If you don't want hostility when asking a question, don't be hostile when you're first given the answer.

>>49916273
>What games existed in 1990?
This must be some sort of joke, yes?

>>49916273
Who was being hostile to you?

>>49916273
Oh, you responded to one point in >>49916164 ... what about all of the others in that post and... >>49916273 ?

>>49916316
Anon you just linked the same post twice.

>>49916142
>I still know my magic wand works, if you veil it from my magical senses.
Mental image: The end of Die Hard (original and best). McClain walks in to face Hans Gruber with a wand duct taped to his back, hands on his head. Hans sneers and puts a gun to McClain's wife's head.
"John!!!" the woman's eyes are wide and fearful, but her husband looks at her calmly, warmly even, his eyes wrinkling at the edges.

"What was that you said earlier, McClain? 'Expelliarmus, Motherfucker?'"

McClain begins to laugh, slowly at first until he's shaking with it. The henchman looks confused, lowering his gun....

The henchman never sees the wand that McClain whips out, there is only a blinding flash and the smell of hot fudge as he and Hans Gruber are turned into lawn furniture.

"Matter 3, Life 3, Terrorists 0, motherfucker" yells McClain as he kicks the furniture out the side of the building.

(this way the wife gets to keep her Rolex)

>>49916327
Fuck me. Here.

>>49916273
Respond to these points. >>49916164 and >>49916195

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>>49916328

>>49916244
>Under masquerade rules, you can only start at eighth and, hence, not bust the cap on level five stat limits.
Okay, but they're one Diablerie away from it, unlike the other players.

The point about them having no home, no money, no contacts, no retainers, no status, no influence (only 2 dots and you can influence the ENTIRE STATE, but that's another argument) and the other player characters are their only friends is still valid.

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>>49916247
>(there is actually written how much Cover a Soul Pact is worth, it's Primum dots + result of roll Wits + Manipulation)
Where's that? I was just on the page describing the benefits of a Pact and didn't see it.

>Isn't this gross compromise in itself?
In the sense of making you suspicious, yes, but not in the Capital-C sense. That's why you take -2 when you're at Cover 1.
>Does taking action out of character of your cover count if there is no one tell it?
I've never had reason to assume otherwise. As the other anon says, it's the world that observes you.

>>49916260
I feel that the mechanics--In Chronicles of Darkness, the game that I was originally talking about before you jumped in to start complaining about the original WoD--are very good. I would also argue that even oWoD is better than freeform.

Also, no, I don't mean the game is violent and that's taking after Shadowrun. I mean that the mechanics--dicepools that each count as an individual success instead of having the faces totaled--is an idea taken from Shadowrun, when they decided not to go with GURPS.

>>49916272
>Is murder in demonic form an extra compromise?
I actually never noticed this, even though I did read most of the first half of the book years ago, but Demons have a different Compromise system. They don't have the Cover Conditions, instead they have Demonic Conditions where being Compromised essentially fucks with their identity.

>>49916273
>veiling cuts you off

Stop being dense Anon It doesn't

Veiling spells are twofold: Firstly, they can conceal things
under the Arcanum’s purview from detection: A target
can be made to lose all sense of time (Time), a fire’s heat
and light can be hidden from view (Forces), or a building
made all but impossible to notice (Matter). Secondly, they
can conceal a target from concrete phenomena under the
Arcanum’s purview: a mage can render herself invisible to
ghosts (Death), or ward a powerful Locus from detection by
spirits (Spirit), or walk unnoticed through a crowd (Life or
Mind), or past a camera (Forces). Short of archmastery, it’s
impossible to Veil something against an abstract concept
or force: a mage can’t Veil herself against death or hide
from time, for example.

>>49916428
>Firstly, they can conceal things under the Arcanum’s purview from detection
Sweet.
Cast it on something, and you lose all understanding of its connection to the Supernal
You can't say "oh, but I was looking at it before" when someone uses Hidden Hoard

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>>49916328
Yes exactly

They never see it coming

>>ascension
So... basically the idea is the Cathars were right, kinda, there's a world of pure thought and knowledge and light and Avatars are from there? Technocracy, Traditions and Marauders are all expressions of divinity from that other realm and the Nephandi serve the corrupted God of This World?

>>Golconda
>Hard and fast rules have existed since second edtion. The guidance given has been "make a plot out of it."
I don't dispute that. The Suspire part is explicit. The books get very hazy about what happens to a vamp when they *achieve* Golconda, though. Become human, maybe. No need to feed, maybe. Discipline 10 evrywhere, maybe. I dunno, says the book, whatever you want. Become human again is the most sensible idea, and the most thematically appropriate given the emphasis on "humanity", so why didn't they go with that?

>>Wraith and "Letting Go"
>It's called transcendence. See above.
I got that bit, my point is why one is better than the other.

Two doors. Go through the one on the left. That's the Good door. You will disappear instantly, and forever. Go through the right, that's the Bad Door. You will disappear instantly, and forever.

So what's the difference to me, the hypothetical door chooser? Apart from the name, they seem identical. Both are the same fate. What's in it for me? Why choose one over the other?

Remember, Transcendence isn't necessary for reincarnation. Ends of Empire involves hunting down the reincarnation of Charon and killing him, after his original corpus got totalled fighting a Malfean and presumably, sent to Oblivion.

All that is needed is for one - *one* - wraith to come back from Transcendence, all glowing and content and pure Teflon to Oblivion, even if it happened centuries ago and is only a rumour, for the fluff to feel more coherent. Wraith needs a Lazarus.

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>>49916285
Read the chain of comments. They were about as hostile as I was.

>>49916279
The RPG landscape was very different when the original World of Darkness was being made. Originally they were going to go with GURPS. They settled instead on using a Shadowrun inspired system.
Other than that and a bunch of d20 clones, there really wasn't the open and super available RPG market we have now. I'm not saying there were no games at all; I'm just saying that the hobby wasn't at the point where "game design" was given as much thought as it is now. There was no Forge in 1990.

>>49916316
>>49916346
I only responded to that one because I feel Gangrel traits basically being not-there mechanically is silly. I'm not the guy you're arguing with. I mean, I pointed out flaws in his shit, too.
Although I wanted to ask about Ahroun and point out that puberty does start around 12ish.

>>49916376
"Some traits are better than others" isn't really that big a deal, because the mechanical value is not as meaningful or important as narrative value. And, as I said before, groups should be the one to impose limits on most things, not the book.

(I mean, I think Generation is stupid, but "take this Background to have better Generation" isn't why).

>>49916428
What >>49916438 said. You might as well argue that you can use a computer that's been Veiled.

>>49916455
I need a better, more CofD related filename for that.

>>49908881
>both of you
;)

>>49916164
Thank you for the DA Celerity rules. The rest of your post is too hostile to address with civility. I suggest you turn off your device and do something else for five minutes. A /tg/ post is not worth getting stressed over. Life is too short, friend.

>>49916420
Soul Pact info is split in two places for some reason. That is in the section on Cover/New Covers.

>>49916420
>Demonic Conditions

Those are the results of compromise rolls. While that answers the question you didn't greentext, it doesn't really answer the question you did quote, about whether any actions can ever be considered grossly out of character and trigger compromise when you're a naked demon, or if you're, for the moment, free.

>>49916438
Anon literally gave you a compromise between your idea and the rules,
>>49916142
>spell pot has to overcome yantra bonus + sympathy

still goes insane with it. This is why people don't like mages

>>49915252
I've got a CofD mashed with Hc Svnt Dracones that I'm running for a friend.

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>>49916465
>pointing out that what you said what bullshit
>"""hostile"""

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>>49916376
And they have to walk around with black veins in their aura for a year.

Black veins that can be detected for a fucking year of game time at a minimum.

Oh, and there's this.
>.pdf related

And that's a major theme of the game. Taking power for yourself from the people who have it. You spent the points? Good job. Now go find an elder who can ROFL stomp werewolves and take him on dark souls style.

>>49916464
>So... basically the idea is the Cathars were right, kinda, there's a world of pure thought and knowledge and light and Avatars are from there? Technocracy, Traditions and Marauders are all expressions of divinity from that other realm and the Nephandi serve the corrupted God of This World?
More like Plato.

>I don't dispute that. The Suspire part is explicit. The books get very hazy about what happens to a vamp when they *achieve* Golconda, though. Become human, maybe. No need to feed, maybe. Discipline 10 evrywhere, maybe. I dunno, says the book, whatever you want. Become human again is the most sensible idea, and the most thematically appropriate given the emphasis on "humanity", so why didn't they go with that?
You're the nicest bloodsucking monster that dies in the sunlight ever. And it explicitly lays out what what Golconda is. Reduced need to feed, no limits on disciplines as long as you can maintain that state.

This has been in the game for a quarter century.

>I got that bit, my point is why one is better than the other.

Faith is a bitch. You have two choices. You don't know what they'll do but they'll end your suffering. Or you can wait here and get made into a coin.

Life sucks, wear a cup.

>>49916273
>>Found your first problem.
>That I play a better game?

"Better" is a subjective term, based on personal preferences. I can fix a few broken rules. I can't fix having players that all suffer phobias of the ocean if I want to play 7 Seas.

>>49916465
>I only responded to that one because I feel Gangrel traits basically being not-there mechanically is silly. I'm not the guy you're arguing with. I mean, I pointed out flaws in his shit, too.
>Although I wanted to ask about Ahroun and point out that puberty does start around 12ish.

GM 101. If they want to play a childling like that, don't settle for that shit and kick them out or have a good talking to. How is this any different from any other "that guy" situation.

>>49916273
>It's not something that needs to be spelled out.

Sooooo in a game full of Murderers, spawned by the First Murderer, which is named after the concept that they hide their existence, you don't see the value in even knowing whether law enforcement are finding fingerprints - one of the oldest and most basic tools of law enforcement - at crime scenes 60, 70, 80 years apart?

>>49916465
>Originally they were going to go with GURPS.
What a funny thing to say.

They had everything from D&D to Phoenix Command to RuneQuest to Paranoia to learn from, not having Forge isn't really an excuse.

>>49916464
>The books get very hazy about what happens to a vamp when they *achieve* Golconda, though.
Why should the game give you mechanics that's supposed to be "and they lived happily ever after"?

>I got that bit, my point is why one is better than the other.
Because one is a happy ending and comfortable oblivion and the other is fuck you you fucked up.

>>49916482
>or some reason
THIS is the thing that I hate. I hate that, but instead people whine that "this Condition can't technically be taken when you're Burned!"
The book could AT LEAST point you to it.

Also I hate shit like the Esoteric Armoury being in the Ephemeral Being section instead of the Merits section.

>it doesn't really answer the question you did quote, about whether any actions can ever be considered grossly out of character
Well your character with no Cover is to be a Demon and do Demon things, so no.

>>49916494
>Calling my post """"hostile"""" in the first place

>>49916488
>Hc Svnt Dracones
... the shitty furry space game?
My friend did art for that.

>>49916514
>>49916376
People always overexaggerate how much Diablerie goes on.
As I pointed out last game, in addition to most Vampires still finding it terrifying to kill someone and drink their soul, you don't win the Game of Thrones by killing everyone at the first available chance.

>>49916530
What does 7th Sea have to do with anything? What are you even getting at?
If you're sitting here complaining so much about World, why would you be so against trying Chronicles?

>>49916543
I didn't say I cared if they played a Childling like that. In fact, there's story potential in being a horny goat man trapped in the body of a 12 year old. Hit on all the MILFs. Be sure to talk like Danny DeVito.

>>49916568
Over here... >>49916164

Jesus fuck, guys, ignore the fat little faggot. He wants attention.

Do not reply, do not react. Ignore his retardation and move on.

>>49916568
No, not particularly. If you want to have that be a thing, well, there's some story fodder for you. If you think that being dead means they're not going to sweat or leave oils, well, then they don't. Besides, asking questions like that is what leads to "everything from spit to vitreous humour to semen is BLOOOOOD.

>>49916575
I feel like you're missing the point that I'm trying to make, which is less to do with the actual Forge website and more to do with the fact that really STUDYING game design wasn't quite as big a thing in the late 80s as it is now. This is also why quite a few of the games at the time had really shitty mechanics.

Also, yes, the original version of World of Darkness was going to be in GURPS. When the books started selling well, Steve Jackson games actually used the license that they still had to put out their own versions of Masquerade, Apocalypse, and Ascension.

>>49916617
I realize you think everyone you don't like is Aspel, but I'm not the one asking all these stupid questions. In fact, I'm pointing out how ridiculous his questions are.
Also, shouldn't you take your own advice, anyway?

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>>49916594
>>Calling my post """"hostile"""" in the first place

You realize of course that you are the only one who called anything in that chain hostile.

>>49916622
>This is also why quite a few of the games at the time had really shitty mechanics.
No, I'm pretty sure the reason for that was because RPGs were pretty big business in the 80s, so everybody and their cat wanted to make one.

People who were actually good at game design still playtested their rules and looked at the competition, just like they'd been doing since the late 1970s.

>>49916359
>English boy with unfortunate background solves problems with physical violence, guns and an aristocratic accent

They already made that movie, anon. They called it "The Kingsmen" - I recommend it to anyone who misses the good old days of James Bond.

>>49916464
>The books get very hazy about what happens to a vamp when they *achieve* Golconda, though. Become human, maybe. No need to feed, maybe. Discipline 10 evrywhere, maybe. I dunno, says the book, whatever you want. Become human again is the most sensible idea, and the most thematically appropriate given the emphasis on "humanity", so why didn't they go with that?

Because some players don't think "Vampire enlightenment" should be "become human". Some would want it as a means of becoming uber-vampires, or become mindless monsters of incredible potency, or meet Final Death, or for their players to understand that the journey is the true reward or some other shit.

Golconda is *meant* to be vague in terms of mechanics, because "ascending" the vampire curse is going to mean a hundred different things to a hundred different people. So, the STs are given *ideas* on various ideas on what any given vampire's Golconda is. That way, person A won't bitch about why Golconda isn't "becoming human" and person B won't bitch about why Golconda isn't "become a super vampire", and so on.

You think becoming human is the most sensible? Good for you, feel free to use that for either one or all of the characters in a story. If some other ST thinks becoming a super vampire is the most sensible for a story? Good for them, they're free to use that.

Or, Golconda might indeed be just a fairy tale. It's up to the individual readers/STs to decide.

>>49916420
>I would also argue that even oWoD is better than freeform.

Not when the bong water has turned black with soot and none of your players can remember anything for more than five minutes. At that point you're running purely on your ability to tell a good story and engage your players. Reduce resource-based stats to something they can use tokens for, so they won't lose count. Reduce the number of dice rolls to bare minimum to prevent confusion. These principles , and the need to simplify, remain the same if your players have nearly finished off the vodka and one of them is willing to try drinking the aftershave.

We didn't grow up with a lot. Intoxicants were cheap and ubiquitous. Roleplay was our way to dream bigger than a shitty little town on the fringe of civilization... and fuck me was it a cheap hobby, all you needed was a book and some dice.

>>49916420
>I mean that the mechanics ... is an idea taken from Shadowrun
Hey, I didn't know that! Thank you anon :)

>people are actually trying to defend oWoD
Get on with the times, old men. What seemed good to you 20 years ago is no longer considered good now, when there are far better things around.

>>49916626
Motherfucker what is this >>49915470
>>random hostility towards strangers
>>states obvious
>ok
If you find "good for you, do you want a cookie" hostile, that's on you.

>>49916643
Except that in the late 70s most games were just D&D rip offs, and games in the 80s didn't really get much better. Ones that aren't D&D rip offs tended to be games like GURPS, where it was a clusterfuck of options and bookkeeping.

There are plenty of servicable games during the time period, but there aren't exactly shining beautiful examples of game design.

>>49916706
I try not to play with stoners. Or even people that can't pay attention regardless of their level of inebriation.

>>49916465
>"Some traits are better than others" isn't really that big a deal, because the mechanical value is not as meaningful or important as narrative value.

I think it matters when every player is given the exact same number of points for character generation in the interest of starting out balanced. I could spend 2 points on Generation and have a tiny benefit in Blood Pool, or I could spend 2 points on Influence and be able to shift the political debate of my entire home state. Do you see the problem?

>>49916756
I think you really should read Designers and Dragons.

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>>49916729

>>49916756
>it's an 'Aspel pretends to not be vastly ignorant about something outside his narrow domain of expertise' episode

>>49916785
It's true. OWoD hasn't aged well at all. I can understand someone preferring the setting, but the mechanics are hot garbage.

>>49916756
It ain't hostile but it is disproportionately defensive. You react like someone bullying a PDF file just called your sister ugly.

>>49916768
Wasn't your argument that Generation is always best?

>>49916769
This seems pretty cool.
But I'm not sure what it has to do with anything.

>>49916810
No I don't. I act like someone hearing the same nitpick for the hundredth time. Like I said, people complaining that they can't figure out simple things like "clearly this is what is it means" is like watching someone try to find something hidden behind a lamp and refuse to look behind the lamp.

>>49916797
Why don't you drop some knowledge on us.

>>49916827
Someone tried.

it didn't take.
>>49916820
>I'm not sure what it has to do with anything.

>>49916514
1) I'm not disputing the facts or themes of Diablerie. I'm talking about the mechanical advantage a player gets from starting out spending all 5 Background points on Generation, when they Diablerise a single Elder, over a player that chooses to spread those Background points around, when they Diablerise a single Elder. The first player can now boost stats to 6.
>Golconda
Okay, I will go back and re-read my source material if you stop getting so cranky at people you don't even know. It's not healthy. One day, the Mods will rise and slake their thirst on the first of us, and they will ban /tg/ whole. We have to start working together.

>>49916820
>simple things like "clearly this is what is it means"

"the thing Aspel made up in his head that sorta vaguely resembles what he guesses the writer probably intended and the actual text not at all" isn't obvious or common sense.

>>49916820
>I'm not sure what it has to do with anything.
You mean you don't think that knowing something about tabletop RPG design history might be important when you're shooting your keyboard off like you know something about tabletop RPG design history?

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>>49916543
>>I wanted to point out that puberty does start around 12ish.
>GM 101. If they want to play a childling like that, don't settle for that shit and kick them out or have a good talking to. How is this any different from any other "that guy" situation?

It's explicitly within the rules?

>>49916568
Do you seriously think they'd have the prints of murderers millennia and centuries ago?

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>>49916834
>>49916860
I feel like you've missed the point I was trying to make and you just want to "school" me. Regardless, in 1990 there wasn't 42 years of RPG history and design theory to draw on, and expecting a game from that era to hold up now is unreasonable. And this is coming from someone who doesn't even like the game in question to begin with.

>>49916850
>The thing that everyone else seems to have no problem with isn't obvious to me
Well I'm sorry for you, but that's on you. Once again I say: "You found an area where the book could be written better. Do you want a cookie?"

>>49916873
And it should probably be mentioned in the rules that if the group is uncomfortable with you playing a sexual deviant 12 year old, then you shouldn't be playing a sexual deviant 12 year old. Hell, if they don't feel comfortable with you playing a Satyr in the first place because of the rapey tone, that's fine.

>>49916937
>expecting a game from that era to hold up now is unreasonable.
How? Classic Traveller holds up even better than oWoD, and it's 14 years older.

>>49916594
>Why should the game give you mechanics that's supposed to be "and they lived happily ever after"?
The Book of Nod.
>when i looked up from my drink of sorrow
>the archangel Gabriel
>gentle Gabriel
>Gabriel, Lord of Mercy
>appeared to me.
>
>The archangel Gabriel said unto me,
>"Son of Adam, Son of Eve,
>Behold, the mercy of the Father is greater than you can even know
>for even now there is a path opened
>a road of Mercy
>and you shall call this road [Golconda] *
>And tell your children of it,
>for by that road may they come once again to dwell in the Light."
> --- The Temptations of Caine

So how can they dwell "in the Light" in a literal sense if they don't lose vulnerability to sunlight? If we take the more likely interpretation, the word is used figuratively - it is capitalised, after all - the implication is that the vampire is returned to mortality.

QED.

>one is a happy ending and comfortable oblivion and the other is fuck you you fucked up.
No, it isn't. Both move the wraith "off the board". Oblivion doesn't utterly destroy a soul, just that permutation of it. Charon's return proves this. There is absolutely no difference in the grand wheel of reincarnation whether a soul swan dives into the heart of the Labyrinth, gets fed to a Malfean or Transcends. How does the wraith know they fucked up? Because one is scarier than the other? It's the Shadowlands we're talking about, where *everything* is awful and decaying and miserable. No-one has come back from either to indicate one is better than the other. Only Demon: the Fallen implies that Oblivion is an eternal nihilistic prison, and we're supposed to try not to cross the streams so much with the old splats.

>>49916936
next century maybe. we keep records now. The concept of future proofing your idea is a thing now

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>>49916600
Thank you!

>>49916970
Still, the concept of people checking up prints from one century ago is ludicrous and would be hand waved outside as a mistake

>>49916936
I thought it would be cool to have a police department to have been confounded by a murderer since the 50's. The mystery character's prints are found on murder sites a few times per decade.

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>>49917008
People still talk about jack the ripper. imagine if we had his prints. You couldn't imagine some fanatics religiously checking murders against Jack's prints?

It's prime Hunter plot man.

>>49916594
>What does 7th Sea have to do with anything? What are you even getting at?

That "Better" is a meaningless term people attach to games they have a personal affinity for. What I'm concerned with is finding a good fit between a game I want to run and players want to play. How many times have YOU thought up some high concept ideas and had something like this happen -
>"Hey, remember Spelljammer? Well, what about a sort of frontier game where a fantasy world gets Spelljammers and makes first contact, gets to explore the moon, colonise the asteroid belt... *scribbles notes furiously*"
>"Uh... dude.... wasn't that AD&D 2nd Ed?"
>"Yeah!"
>"...fucking PASS"

If you've not had that happen at least once, you must have been on the same campaign for years.

>If you're sitting here complaining so much about World, why would you be so against trying Chronicles?
I've tried. Believe me. It's like it won't get processed by my brain. The new rules don't form new memories, every time I see a word upcycled from oWoD I get flashbacks to the oWoD.... the biggest thing is that when I'm running oWoD it's not like telling a story, it's like I can see it, actually see it all happening and I'm just describing what I see. I can even balance contradictory splat metaphysics and original myths in a quantum state, all are true without contradiction, "truth" depends on the viewer.

My brain is not CofD compatible. *shrug* Mental illness does strange things.

Please understand, I know from how excited you all get, how passionately you all defend it from gormless morons like Aspel, that you love it. I'll never screech about "ZOMG REQUIM IS SUX" or any such bullshit to you or anyone else. My focus is just on getting oWoD working with a minimum of player friction.

>>49916617
>>>/d/

>>49917066
I could, but I imagine if there were prints left of a vampire Jack the camarilla would destroy them

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>>49916678
>CORRECT ANSWER / 10

>>49916729
>What seemed good to you 20 years ago is no longer considered good now
We consider it good, son. That's all that matters.

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>>49917096
Dude plot man. that's the story.

>Old Police records in stock.
>Hunters confirm prints with outside investigation
>vamps have to destroy everything before it gets too big. Kill hunters / Destroy Records

That's the game Anon. Do you not like fun Anon?

>>49916756
>I try not to play with stoners. Or even people that can't pay attention regardless of their level of inebriation.
Interesting that you didn't mention alcohol at first, then implied it second. I can only conclude you're no stranger to roleplaying drunk (but then few of us are). You don't consider that a double standard, to judge people who smoke instead?

No judgement. Pure curiosity.

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>>49917090
>Tells people to ignore the fat faggot Aspel
>Gets accused of being him

That's a new one.

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>>49917165
Alcohol used to be the immature/irresponsible way of inebriation. Then we got pot which pushed it out as the 'Problem' substance abuse issue. When it's always been a "Person" Problem with a mask slapped onto it

>>49916820
>Wasn't your argument that Generation is always best?
No.

>>49915995
>I contend that nothing seems tested, mechanic or math. I'm talking about basic, core mechanics of the oWoD that right out of the gate need a house rule to prevent abuse or shitty experiences.

I then pointed out examples you've done nothing but ignore.

It's almost like... like... I dunno, watching someone try to find something hidden behind a lamp, and it's like they just REFUSE to look behind that darn lamp!

>>49916936
No, but what seems to be evidence of a murder being committed by the same murderer in 1910, 1921, 1945, 1984 and 2016 would raise an enormous number of eyebrows at the local police department and jeopardise the Masquerade in a long, insidious way that the Kindred might not even see coming. How many men over 106 are usually happily murdering grown adults in violent ways in your hometown?

>>49916937
>asspel
>>>/d/

>>49917266
>How many men over 106 are usually happily murdering grown adults in violent ways in your hometown?
We've got a local epidemic, but I don't think that's indicative of the rest of the world.

>>49917266
Those old bastards get frisky at 105. Gotta keep your eye on them.

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>mfw Therese kills Jeanette

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_7DUuZcmM0

>>49917151
I can practically see the crazed old retired detective now as he shows the Hunters his "study", old wife pottering out to the kitchen to put on the kettle and find some biscuits for the "nice young folk".

The entire wall is covered with photos of the crime scenes, bodies, newspaper clippings, the only sketch that was taken from a witness who died in 1910. His eyes are wild and spittle flies from his mouth as he rants about how they fired him because he wouldn't drop it, wouldn't drop the fact that the same MO keep showing up, bodies posed the same way, same profile of victim, same GODDAMN HEIGHT OF PERP the day he walked on that horrific crime scene in 1984 as the pictures and reports from old files he stole from Records. When the same shit showed up in '97, he started digging. It keeps going back, back and back to the first gazettes printed in the city in 1893...

"When you account for the possible, the only thing left.... is the impossible." He slumps into his chair and looks up at the players bitterly. "But I suppose you think I'm just a mad old fool, believing in boogeymen. The Department certainly did. But what's the alternative? A brotherhood of men of identical physical build, committing ritual murders for over a goddamn CENTURY??"

>>49917080
>That "Better" is a meaningless term people attach to games they have a personal affinity for.
A game that is more capable of accomplishing it's goals is by definition better. The entire start of this was that you were bitching about Masquerade's mechanical and setting problems. I suggest playing Requiem because it accomplishes it's goals more often in those areas.

If you for whatever reason can't manage to mentally compartmentalize the different games, that's on you. Randomly bringing up other games is just a non-sequitur.

>>49917165
>>49917208
Actually, I've been called a teetotaler. I didn't mention alcohol because your thing was stoners. I went with "inebriation" because it sounded better than "sobriety" in that statement.
I don't particularly like playing with drunk people that much, either.
You ever try to play Dead of Winter with someone drunk as a fish?

>>49917222
I didn't ignore them. I pointed out that they're not really problems the way you're presenting them. You certainly seemed concerned with people taking Generation 8 and nothing else.

Also, dude, you've got two people pointing out how silly your complaints are, and one of them doesn't even like the game they're defending. Your complaints are that silly.

>>49917181
>>>/d/
They miss you, Aspel.

>>49917352
>tfw you refused to accept
>tfw you reloaded over sixty times like Vampire the Masquerade: Butterfly Effect
>tfw you consoled 130 XP so you could max out Persuasion

LIVE, DAMN YOU! LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIVE

>>49917381
>You ever try to play Dead of Winter with someone drunk as a fish?
That sounds AWESOME. Name a time, you and me, shots, your dice. \m/

>>49917381
>A game that is more capable of accomplishing it's goals is by definition better.
That's not up to the game. That's up to the collaboration between players and ST. A good ST can, as I originally pointed out, come up with house rules, work-arounds and compromises, as long as the players agree to them. After that point, "better" really means "the best fit for this group". Some players don't do horror. Some don't do fantasy. "Pathfinder is better than D&D 4e" is a meaningless statement to someone who fucking hates Tolkien and leaves the room when it's discussed. I've never seen a flawless RPG, by the way.

I merely pointed out things that needed fixing to work, then happily discussed implications and ideas without attacking. I keep talking about oWoD. You keep bringing up Requiem, which is as you say, a non-sequitur unless you're explicitly discussing ripping out the engine and using it on oWoD.

Yes, it is on me that I can't process CofD. It's pretty obviously not on anyone else. Again, just trying to discuss oWoD. I only bought up 7th Sea as an example of how an ST can do nothing to change the player's preferences or "no go zones", just respect them and compromise.

>>49917575
>That's not up to the game
Yes it is.
When I say "accomplishes its goals", I mean the system needs less of this
>A good ST can, as I originally pointed out, come up with house rules, work-arounds and compromises, as long as the players agree to them.
It's not about being flawless; I previously pointed out--in the post that you jumped on and started bitching about Masquerade--expecting game designers to achieve perfect is unreasonable.

>>49917575
>blaming the ST for the rules of a system
>justifying a system's downfalls with houserules
That's some dank stuff right there.

>>49916514
First off, these optional rules for addiction are pretty heinous. A low Self-Control character would become a fucking liability to be around, because "chance to taste vampire Vitae" could be interpreted as laying eyes on another vampire and no-one is watching. Goodbye to players working in pairs.

The example on Discipline increases tells me to ignore Disciplines the attacker has in common with the victim. The example then uses nothing but identical Disciplines to calculate a 2 point increase. I would love to be a White Wolf editor, get paid to do fuck all.

Regardless - Thank you. I accept WW as being a fixer-upper. The possession angle has the potential to really throw the players a curveball if the Elder that's been pissing on them disappears one night, and promptly bodyjacks a Diablerist for a fresh meatsuit and a new social scene, just to come back and piss on them again. Bonus points if both characters have the same little mannerisms and turns of phrase...

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>>49917810
Anon Why are you doing that same voice as the BBEG for the new quest giver ?

ohgodwhy

Is Bolthole the best merit in Demon?

>>49918081
Yes. Take the No Twilight option to really fuck with things

>>49917096
Jack doesn't have to be a vampire, he could easily be a slasher.

>>49908562
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_tema.htm

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Hey y'all, I'm running a V20 Dark Ages campaign set in Transylvania for a bunch of complete noobs to pen and paper roleplaying, and while they're very interested, our first session was a bit of a flop, as I am used to more experienced, dynamic players who take initiative.

As such, we've decided to start from scratch and try again, this time with me preparing to make things up on the go and keep them immersed and involved in the story, though I have a question for you guys:

How do you make interesting stories?

I like the idea of them being courtiers in a minor noble's court, and them rising up the ranks first as humans. I've written about fifteen to twenty random courties they will meet/interact with, though, for example, my players would make up the story on their own, the new guys are going to possibly feel overwhelmed.

How can I add intrigue, backstabbing and Machiavellian manipulations to the game? Typical civil war setting? Does a faction who want to attain a goal want to recruit the players? If they do join that faction, to they oppose a faction who wants to attain the same goal but in a different way, or maybe a different goal?

Pls give me tips for running V20 Dark Ages

>>49916937
>Well I'm sorry for you, but that's on you

No you dense autist, this was on you. Something being "obvious" to one person doesn't make that person objectively correct.

There are many, many other ways to mentally-autocorrect flawed righting into what is "obviously" the platonically correct true interpretation. There is tons of wiggle room, and a lot of ways to rewrite it, all equally reasonable.

That you're seemingly breathtakingly certain about literally everything no matter how little basis you actually have doesn't make that certainty anything more than a symptom of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

>>49918090
Then comes mage with Twilit Body who doesn't give a fuck that there isn't supposed to be Twilight.

>>49918708
Have you asked them what they want? One of the worst things that can happen to a Storyteller is put heaps of prep into a game no-one wants to play.

Still, here's some basic reading on how politics work for Kindred. This is a manual about how to be a Prince of a small city state, but it applies just as well to Vampire Lords. It caused a scandal when it was published in 1515, because it wasn't the usual sanctimonious moral horse-shit, and the author was labelled a heretic and the Anti-Christ. It suggests pragmatism, being a bastard, and that "it is better to be loved than feared, but better feared than nothing at all."

http://www.constitution.org/mac/prince.pdf

>>49919755
>http://www.constitution.org/mac/prince.pdf

I've tried asking them about that, but they've actually, believe it or not, avoided my questions. I attribute it to a complete lack of experience in roleplaying games, so I didn't press further into it and just settled on a balanced mix of intrigue, action and emotional moments.

And yes, I fully well know of Machiavelli's The Prince, which is partly why I used the word Machiavellian in my earlier post, but see, the issue is not as to how this could happen.. the issue is me not getting such an easy grasp on what the reasons for power plays would be, beyond the simple ambitious individual looking to climb up the ranks or such. I'm looking for something more akin to 101 plot ideas.

Thank you for the response, I'll re-read the book and see if I get any ideas when I apply his concepts to the characters I created.

>>49916002
>>49914386
>>49915235
>>49915294
>>49917090
>>49917289
>>49917387
>>/D/

What level of Auspex is needed to recognize diablerist in VtR 2e? Is there a Devotion or somesuch to see auras?

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>watching Kindred: The Embrace

Man is the acting bad. Like an amateur drama production.

>>49920445
Fuck off, Aspel.

>>49920588
>watching Kindred: The Embrace

It was a mid-1990's Aaron Spelling tv drama.

In comparison to other similar shows of the period, the acting wasn't terrible.

It needs to be judged by the standards of its time.

>>49920696
>In comparison to other similar shows of the period

So....Buffy?

>>49920696
I guess you're right. I haven't watched a 90s drama for a long time.

serious question: does anyone know why the Changeling: The Dreaming 2nd edition core rulebook scraps all the great art from the first edition and replaces it with ugly garbage? there's gotta be a story there right

>>49921399
The story is WWGS' ongoing war with coherent art direction.

Like, who thought that hiring Christopher Shy was a good idea?

>>49921455
didn't occur to me to check the credits, I have no idea who Aileen E. Miles is but I hate them

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Morality question.

Next session my players are going to get stuck in a pocket dimension/time loop caused by mage bullshit. In there is a guy who's been trapped inside for several decades and has gone completely insane. As in, practically catatonic, goes through the motions of his old job, unresponsive to anything new.

I suspect the players may decide to put him out of his misery since he's broken beyond all repair. What level of morality sin would this be? It's murder, yes, but it's not cold blooded and a mercy kill. Maybe manslaughter level?

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More a vidya question, but considering this is more a mechanics thought and question, I'll do it here.

In Bloodlines I think we all notice our character is far too powerful, far too quickly. A lot of people have theorized out sire was a low-generation, and thus we are more potent than others in the modern nights.

Thing is, I remember a few punks with baseball bats and 22s kicking my shit in.

The power-gain doesn't really seem to hit narrative-wise until around Grouts mansion. Is it possible to gain power from a vampires blood once it has left their body? Because I remember finding and using several packs of Elder Vitae there. A blood bond would be no issue, as he is ded. I seems a more likely point and explanation than some I have heard to explain away the game mechanics.

>>49921695
It's still murder. Give them a +1 if you feel the need.

>>49921871
>Because I remember finding and using several packs of Elder Vitae there.
I didn't. Because I don't suck, and stealthed through.

I don't think Generation has anything to do with your actual stats. But the blood pool is of someone with low Generation, and your experience gain is crazy fast. That's why people suspect the Sire was low generation. Because the plot kind of implies it.

>>49921871

The explanation is "It's a video game, so it's not handing out XP at the rate of a snail like in a real WoD game". That's it, no lore or mechanical reasons.

>>49921955
While xp gain is there for the sake of progression in the vidya, lacroix also is unable to dominate you, so you outgen him at least.

>>49922366
He's able to do Dominate you early on, if I'm not mistaken.