>commits what amounts to a petty genocide >is basically

>>49874537
"Antagonist" isn't a bad thing, anon. It's a role.

Why are old walkers so wasted as characters? Karn has ceased to exist, sorin is a statue, Nahiri is just stupid and now also insane and Ugin was such a nonfactor it makes khans of tarkir turning into dragon land even more insulting.

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>>49874537
The fuck are you talking about? Is this bait? I don't even know who that character is, and I read THESE THREADS alot. Who the fuck even cares?

Oh, I get what's going on here. Shitposting. Definitely Shitposting.

>>49874537

Wizards of the Coast don't think she's a villain, therefore she is not a villain.

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Except no one says that. Not even MaRo.

>>49874628
>>49874590
>>49874636

I said in this board

>>49874537
1. She missed the Mending. Not the effects, mind you, she's still powered down, but she hasn't actually had time to realize and adjust to the fact that planeswalkers aren't interplanar gods any more. She doesn't think on the scale of actual people--she watched doens of generations of her own people come and go.

2. Sorin fucked off, neglected the Zendikar defenses, and told her to fuck herself when she asked him to just stop over and check on them. Then he shoved her in a rock, and she found out that Zendikar was being eaten by the Eldrazi when she got out over a thousand years later. So she lured one of the three to Innistrad, lowered the plane's defenses, shoved Sorin into a rock, and fucked off. Fair's fair.

It's hard, because "angry and lashing out at the world for being wrongly imprisoned" is usually something we associate with anti-heroes. But yeah, I'm a /tg/ regular and I'll admit that Sorin may be an asshole but Nahiri is a straight-up villain.

>>49874537
>I'm honestly confused.
So am I. Who the fuck are you talking about, and from what? And sexist shmexist, fa/tg/uys worship fictional females. They're the only ones they still believe they can have.

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>>49874537
>ANTagonist

>>49875174
>Sorin may be an asshole but Nahiri is a straight-up villain
They literally did the same exact thing, just a thousand years apart and on different planes. The main difference is that Sorin made a promise to NOT fuck over Zendikar, which he then broke.

>>49875066
I literally never saw the claim she isn't a villain.

>>49874537
So you're like a bunch of asshole who confuse
"Sorin was also an asshole", or "she was justified in her original confrontation with Sorin" or "she was motivated by vengeance" to mean that we don't think she was a villain for what she did after the helvault

She's evil and I hope they deal with her in a lethal way

>>49875283
No, he made a promise of helping if shit hit the fan to which he broke, she straight up commited mass genocide

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>>49875283
I'd like to remind everyone that Nissa is in fact a dumb bitch and this is all her fault.

>>49874537
Women can't be evil so long as men are thirsty.

>>49875375
It's a little different in that he was willing to fuck over a plane with the eldrazi for his personal benefit (convincing someone to trap them on their plane, then not following through on a promise to help if they start breaking out works out to that).
She was willing to sacrifice a plane to the eldrazi for payback.
So cold self interest vs furious reprisal.

>>49875375
How did she straight-up commit mass genocide in a way that he didn't?

>creates cryptoliths that draw Emrakul to the plane
vs
>blocks his connection to the hedron network and neglects it, allowing Ulamog, Kozilek, and Emrakul to start breaking out onto the plane
>then goes on to imprison one of the only two other people in existence who can maintain said network

Both of them took actions that led to an Eldrazi presence on the other's plane, along with uncounted deaths.

>>49875406
Nissa isn't responsible for the FIRST Eldrazi resurgence, though. Sorin still has no excuse for having blocked that signal.

>>49875463
>>49875467
Wrong, he wanted to kill them, Ugin was the one who convice them to trap them in Zendikar. Also she agreed to the plan.

>>49875467
Nahiri made everything on purpose to fuck Sorin's plan, Sorin didn't do that on purpose to do mass genocide. One is a mistake, the other is fucking ill intent.

>>49875467
>The police who unintentionally disconted the phone while cleaning his desk not being able to answer to a call is the same as the girl who lets a starved tiger inside the school and closes all exists

>>49875547
>>49875640
And he then refused to even check on the defenses. He told her, to her face, that he didn't see a problem with the situation, and then imprisoned her. He knew it was a possibility that he wouldn't get the signal about the Eldrazi--he just didn't care.

>>49875522
She agreed to the plane based on Sorkin's promise.
Which he casually broke. So basically a lie.

>>49875547
>>49875661
He did not than that.
He flatly told her "I owe you nothing" despite having just been reminded of his promise.
He also said he didn't want her to trust him, which would involve keeping his promise, just to obey him. To do what he wanted, without him having to do anything he didn't want to do.

She's in the wrong after the helvault escape, but he is entirely in the wrong up until that point.

>>49875685
He didn't broke it on purpose, he didn't know what he did would affect the conection between him and her, he was more worried with what was happening in Innistrad at the time. She just acted like a crazy bitch and Sorin replied like a dick and shit escalated quickly, Sorin is a dick, sure, but she's a fucking mass murderer crazy cunt with the worst of intentions.

>>49875685
THERE! Can we agree to that?! Sorin was a tremendous cunt and Nahiri took it way too far. Does anyone have a problem with that? Is anyone as stupid as >>49874590 ?

>>49875640
>Phone gets reconnected
>Call gets through
>Desk is still dirty though, better tell her to fuck off, maybe I'll explain later.
>What she expects me to actually go out and help, better lock her up then forget about her forever
>Desk is finally clean.
>Should I check on that thing that someone kept trying to tell me about.
>Nah, it will be fine
>Centuries later, that girls house appears to be on fire.
>How odd, I wonder who fucked up.

>>49875777
No, that wasn't breaking the promise.
Breaking the promise was saying "I owe you nothing".
He said that after he knew, he said that intentionally.

>>49875813
He said that becasue Nahiri was acting like a cunt, and Sorin is a dick who loves to act like a dick, it wasn't intentional but fuck it if he's going to let her know he made a mistake.

>>49875852
How is it not intentionally breaking his promise?
He might be doing it because he's a dick and can't stand being called on his mistakes, but that doesn't make it anything but open betrayal of a promise.

Sorin is entirely a villain and in the wrong during that scene.
Saying he's not is the bullshit that actually gets posted on this site often. Very few people actually said that Nihiri was not a villain for what she did after getting out of the helvault, but plenty say Sorin was not for sticking her in there.

>>49874537
>bunch of sexists
Why do you ghazi cucks even come here

>>49875921
He didn't break the promise of not helping her before that instant, he broke it once they started to attack each other because Sorin's personality is caustic and Nahiri already went there with ill intent. Maybe I misunderstood you or you misunderstood me, I'm saying Sorin didn't intentionally break his promise before knowing what happened, once he already knew what happened shit escalated to fast on both parts.

>>49875962
No, you have the timing wrong.
"I owe you nothing" was before the attack. Before he said anything about not being able to leave because he was in the middle of the spell.
But after being told of all the problems and reminded if his promise.

It's an open betrayal.

>>49876009
I owe you nothing is pride and not wanting to admit he made a mistake by unknowingly severing the link between both towards Nahiri accusations, that's not actually betraying her, Sorin prefers to be seen as a bad guy who KNOWS what he's doing at all time than as a dude who made a rookie mistake

And, if I assume right, Nahiri being her gf at one time should know him better. I'm not saying Sorin isn't a dick, I'm saying he didn't doom Zendikar on purpose or knowingly while Nahiri doomed Innistrad and caused mass geneocide on purpose. They aren't comparable.

>>49876094
how is that not a betrayal?
It might have been motivated by pride and such, but he was told he had a promise to follow through on and he casually states that he doesn't feel bound by that promise.

He follows up later that he never wanted trust, just obediance. Trust requires following through on promises, demanding obediance does not. He never wanted to be bound by that promise. He said it becaue it got him what he wanted.
It was a lie, it was a betrayal.

>>49876189
You can't break a promise twice, anon, the promise was alread broke because he severed, unintentionally, the link when he did what he did to save Innistrad. From Nahiri's eyes sure, is betrayal, from our eyes, as readers, was a rookie mistake followed by a prideful "excuse" to make him look like he was always in control.

>>49876279
no, like you said, the unintentionall blocking the call wasn't breaking the promise.
Saying he wasn't bound by the promise was breaking it and a betrayal.

He wasn't being just an asshole then, he was being a villian.

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>>49874537
>petty genocide
Is that like a minor genocide that you only get a interplanar infraction for and don't get to do any time in helvault

>>49874537
Both of them were mindraped into stupidly by a writing team that had put themselves in a corner to facilitate SOI actually happening.

The entire tale of that set was a mess, they tried to write two villains but Sorin is:
1. Far more likeable and well established
2. Pretty much in the right

It was honestly rather sad.

>>49875254
she hot doe

>>49874537
No, she's totally a villain.

I still wanted to see her win though. Mainly cause fucking over an entire Plane AND One-upping Sorin were just too good.

Hell, even if she lost, I'd have been satisfied because she inadvertently made Sorin kill Avacyn. I really don't think there was any way she could have hurt him more.

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>>49876707

>>49874537
Nobody argues about Nahiri. It's saying edgelord Sorin is a villain that gets the full-team defense squad out.

>>49874537
What is it about literal white women that makes them hot as fuck?

>>49874537
>is basically insane now

Where's this "basically" coming from? Nahiri is a fucking psychopath and, until the Phyrexians figure out how to planeswalk, arguably the biggest threat to the stability of the Multiverse.

>>49875488
There is nothing to suggest that he intentionally blocked it. He didn't fully think through how the Helvault were affect interplanar communication. He probably should have checked, but there is literally nothing to suggest that he did it intentionally and everything to suggest that it was honestly an accident that he simply doesn't think is as huge a deal as Nahiri made it out to be (which, after all, it wasn't - she WAS able to stop the Eldrazi by herself).

It's the equivalent of setting up a nuclear missile defense shield that accidentally made his hometown have zero bars on a cell phone - a mistake that by all indications he fixed.

Sorin was an asshole. Nahiri is a genocidal psychopath with.

What I don't understand is why exactly Sorin acted the way he did.

Not admitting fault, I get that. He's got his pride and he knew Nahiri when she was a toddler by his standard, so there is a big ol' pile of guff that is sitting somewhere because Sorin is not taking any of it.

However, up until SOI, Sorin's characterization has been that he's an asshole who happens to be on the side of the angels (literally on Innistrad) because he generally thinks mortals deserve to exist, and particularly wants the multiverse to exist because it's where he keeps all his stuff, and so while his primary drive in life is hedonism, enlightened self-interest makes him help out with heroic endeavors like keeping the Eldrazi from devouring everything.

Sorin's short-sighted shrugging at Zendikar's problem, particularly since he is the only vampire on Innistrad smart enough to figure out being immortal includes living with the consequences, seems out of character to me. Sorin's an asshole, yes, but prior to SOI he's been an asshole that takes the long view of things and does good while still being an asshole about it because bad things might make his life more difficult someday. And Sorin does have a very slight, warped altruistic sinew in his withered heart, as he made Avacyn to save humans and vampires despite knowing this would be nothing but bad for him personally. So his indifference to Nahiri's plight when Nahiri is literally the only other person in the multiverse he actually cared about that much based on the artbooks seems odd.

>>49874537
Nobody's ever said that she isn't a villain.
The main contention is that Sorin is, in fact, just as wrong as she is and is responsible for the entire shitstorm because apparently he now has the people skills of a spoiled child.

That said, >>49879299 has it wrong. It's doubtful Miss MUH ZENDIKAR 1.0 is going to do shit all to any other plane other than maybe Tarkir (if she can even find the place), since the whole thing with Shadows was her attempting to get revenge on Sorin in the only way she thought she was able to and she doesn't have a grudge against anyone else except maybe Ugin.

Unless, of course, Wizards decides to do some more retconning. Or just more really bad storytelling

>>49879518

>"Ugin! I sent the call, and like Sorin, you ignored me! Explain yourself, fiend!"
>"The most powerful planeswalker still living bushwhacked me a couple years after we sealed the Eldrazi and nearly tore me limb from limb. I've been in a coma on the edge of death for millenia and only just recently awoke."
>"...Oh."

>>49879518
Nahiri has already demonstrated that she's willing to slaughter (or rather, enable the slaughter of) people completely uninvolved in her grudge match with Sorin, BY THE MILLIONS.

When she learns the parts that Jace and Chandra played in releasing the Eldrazi, exactly how long do you expect Kaladesh and Vrynn to last?

>>49879507
Yeah, that sounded very strange. It sounded like a forced misunderstanding to make the story go foward.
Nahiri was pretty sensible before staying years locked on complete darkness surrounded by Demons.
You have to hand down to Wizards for her card. Probably the straight up the most strong and flavorful card in a long while.
Not only it has perfect synegy with Emrakul in modern, she enables madness in Standard.

>>49877789
should have flipped emrakul's pic

>>49879563
Well for one, regardless of that I'd expect Vrynn to last a good long while, because nobody knows Jace is from Vrynn, especially Jace.
And either way that isn't common knowledge, and of the people that DO know that, two are the people in question (who would tell her that they saved Zendikar), one is Ugin (who might tell her the same, but say so in a way that makes it sound like he wishes it hadn't), one is Sarkhan who I don't remember if he actually knows the names of the two, and the last is fucking Bolas who set it all up. Which means Bolas decides he wants her to fuck around with rocks on Kaladesh or Ravnica (seeing as she can't do anything with summoning big horrible eldritch monstrosities anymore) - and if he knows about any of this shit going down, he'd be more likely to send her after Sarkhan than Jace/Chandra.

>>49879507
It's really just bad writing to justify SOI happening, he never let her out of the Helvault because she wasn't in there till Doug needed her to be.

>>49879699

It kind of seems that way.

The Zendikar artbook, from what I remember, claimed Sorin viewed Nahiri as the daughter he never had, a distinction he never extended to his actual creation, Avacyn.

It seems odd to me that he would have that level of regard for her right up until she gets angry with him while he's hung over and he's suddenly willing to shut her out completely even when it's in his best interest to make sure the situation she's upset about is well in hand.

>>49879734
When was the last time Wizards got both the fluff and the crunch right?

New Phyrexia?

>>49879574
>There is not a porn or even a fanfic of Nahiri and Avacyn getting raped by Griselbrand and other demons inside the Helvault
I'm seriously dissapointed, /tg/.

>>49879762
og zendikar

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I'm the last one to white knight for a hysterical woman, but Nahiri did nothing wrong. I hope she comes back and fucks the Jacestice League to death.

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>>49879820

>>49879820
I wouldn't mind Jacetice League getting destroyed. Still, Gideon and Ajani are probably the only thing left from white's lawful good justice in the Multiuniverse. If you're killing him, at least bring back Elspeth alive and Mono White.

>>49875777
HOW DOES LOCKING SOMEONE IN THE HELLAVAULT NOT AFFECT THE CONNECTION?

>>49880188
How it does ?

>>49880188

The connection was not the issue anymore by the time that had happened.

The Helvault blocked Nahiri's signal completely by accident, and as Sorin was basically comatose for ages after building it he didn't really have any chance to consider that possibility. Nahiri didn't get chucked in it until after she showed up in person some time later and attacked Sorin when she felt he was trying to brush her off.

>>49880188
Yes, Sorin was a complete dick shoving her into the Helvault and leaving her to insanity
He deserved everything that happened to him, specially the part when he gets stuck in Markov Manor with a giant stone pillar inserted on his ass.
He's probably going to be release some years from now as crazy as she is now. And many Innocent people will die in the process. I'm fucking looking foward to it.

>>49875283
They didn't remotely do the exact same thing.

Sorin made a mistake and blocked out the alarm signal from Zendikar. And it didn't even fucking matter because Nahiri handled it herself. As the events of the Zendikar block show, when he got the alarm, he was very willing to show up.

Nahiri intentionally masterminded the destruction of a plane and everyone on it. She didn't miss an alarm, she went out of her way to murder millions of people because she was mad at one person.

Nahiri is 100% more of an evil monster than Sorin.

>>49875791
>person a has just given almost all their blood so a baby can live, is barely standing
>person b wants them to go on a ten mile hike
>person a says no, I can't now, I'lldo it later
>person be threatens to kill person a before they can even explain themelsves

We can all play the greentext game anon.

>>49880305
Sorin was a cuck who deserved what he got. Fuck Sorin.

>>49880305
>when he got the alarm, he was very willing to show up.
Blatently untrue.
The exact opposite happens.

Sorin is a villian for what he did to Nahiri leading up to sticking her into the helvault forever. Not just an asshole, a villian.
Nahiri is a villian for what she did after the helvault to get revenge on Sorin.

>>49880305
Yeah, she's a became a crazy Oldwalker.
All of this could have been prevented if Sorin didn't picked the literal worse thing to do on that situation. He could have explained, he could have left his pride behind, he could have killed her. But no, let's lock away a fucking Old Walker that's very pissed with me and go for a stroll in the Multiuniverse.
Yeah, surely nothing bad will happen when you lock very Dangerous things on your home plane, right Nahiri?

>>49880374
not the order of events.

The order is
Nahiri shows up and tells Sorin what happens.
Sorin explains why he didn't get the message
Nahiri reminds him of the promise asks him to come now.

Sorin says "I owe you nothing". So he knows what happened, knows about the promise, and tells her it doesn't matter. He doesn't explain why he can't leave, he doesn't say he'll show up latter, he tells her the promise means nothing.
Then he tells her to leave.

Only ofter this does he say anything about maybe going latter to help her. Why whould she believe him, when he'd just shown that the last time he promised her something he didn't think it mattered.

>>49880403
Dude, are you high? Or just too young to remember the Zendikar block? The entire story was Sorin trying to stop the Eldrazi waking up.

>>49880414
He was literally on the verge of explaining when she started to get threatening. Nahiri cut off his attempts to tell her what was up. And he didn't even say he wouldn't come with her, just that it was impossible at that moment.

That said, the Helvault thing was dumb and forced and makes very little sense.

>>49874537
She's cute so it's okay

>>49880486
You know what makes very little sense? Sorin going around looking for Nahiri...when he imprisioned her in the Helvault a milenia ago, either Alzheimer's or a case of Retcon's

>>49880457
"I owe you nothing" was not him literally saying their promise was void. It was him being a prideful shithead and reminding her that she's alive because of him.

>>49880529
Of course it was retcons. The entire story is contrived garbage.

I almost hope it turns out something was messing with both of their minds, otherwise shit makes no sense.

>>49880486
are you high?
When Nahiri shows up to ask for his help he tells her to fuck off, that he doesn't feel his promise means he owes her anything.
(he later start saying something about how he might come by later to help deal with things. But this is after the openly breaking the promise, and is a maybe I'll help out).
Then seals her in the helvault, then does nothing about Zendikar until their is something else that draws his attention.

Betrayal happens before the explaination. Why whould she listen to him after that betrayal.
Especially as he says "maybe latter" he might help.
Not "I will help you as soon as". But "No, maybe later". And again, this is after saying that he does not consider the promise he made to hold him to any obligation.

>>49880486
>>49880529

See, the Helvault comes into it because oldwalkers all need an explanation for how they're not dying of old age when their bodies become physical again; Nahiri gets the ol 'frozen in extradimensional stasis for a thousand years' pass.

Frankly, what I ASSUMED had happened back in Tarkir was that Sorin "saved" Nahiri when he realized she was starting to age again by turning her into a vampire, for both selfish and pragmatic reasons; he didn't want his only friend to die and if Nahiri kicked it of old age there'd be no way to get the Eldrazi back under control if they escaped.

Nahiri was not happy about it and told him to go fuck himself before abandoning Zendikar, which is why Sorin is a. looking for her, and b. feels ashamed about why he thinks he knows how to find her but has some hope that Nahiri will ever work with him again.

>>49880530
"We had a deal"
Then
"I how you nothing"
because apparentely not killing her out of hand means that the promise he made latter doesn't oblige him to anything.

I'll admit that it's out of character and bad writting, but as written, he betrays her, insults her, never says he will go and help her only "maybe latter" he might do something, then seals her away forever and does nothing about it for centuries.

>>49880234
Sorry, I thought you were talking about the personal connection.

>>49880598
A proper waifu would put up with any insult and betrayal without complaint. Nahiri is the worst waifu I've ever seen.

>>49875254
Topkek

>>49880529
Was Sorin ever looking for Nahiri? The only mention of it was when Ugin specifically tells him to do it and he deliberately dodges the issue.

>>49874537
Listen, buddy, I'm not sure if you understand how this works, but it can be redeemed if I want to stick my dick in it.

>>49880934
There was never an indication that Sorin knew of Nahiri's whereabouts prior to his conversation with resurrected Ugin.

In original Zendikar he seem kinda surprised that he was the only person to answered the distress call and even where were the other two.

>>49879299

It's not made entirely clear if she's out and out insane per se, but yeah, she's pretty deranged morally at this point

>>49879507

This.

Did he swallow retard pills or something? From a purely Black perspective, dooming everything because you're lazy is not helpful on the long term

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>>49880284
>He deserved everything that happened to him

See, I don't doubt that. He really does probably deserve to be shoved in stone for a few centuries.

But not the people of Innistrad. They don't deserve any of what happened.

>He's probably going to be release some years from now as crazy as she is now

I doubt it. We've seen what Sorin's Vengeance looks like. He deals precisely enough damage to kill someone who he's already decided he hates (since the card deals 10 damage and his original card's middle ability reduced someone to 10 life). It was singular and controlled and focused.

This stands in direct contrast t Nahiri's Wrath, which involves her insanely (via discarding, i.e., madness) lashing out at not only whatever she hates, but everything near it.

When Sorin gets out, he's going to have eyes only for Nahiri. He might kill someone who stops him from getting to Nahiri, but he's not going to try and kill an entire plane or even a significant portion of one. His goal is just going to be to ram a sword through her chest.

(The contrasting cards are a fantastic bit of flavor on WotC's part, by the way.)

>>49874537
Both Sorin and Nahiri are villains, their arc was evil vs. evil.

>>49879507
>>49881903
Black characters are allowed to have relationships, you know. Despite everything, he legitimately liked Nahiri until she freaked about holding him to promises (conflict between White and Black).
Also I'm pretty sure Sorin didn't know the things trapped in the Helvault are completely aware for the entire duration.

>>49874567
Well, Liliana's hanging out with the protagonists now, so there's that.

>>49882626
The problem is that one of them was clearly, unquestionably worse than the other.

Protip: it wasn't the vampire.

>>49874636
>Jace (Protagonist)
Kill me.

>>49882713
I don't think a matter of worse really applies. A world was ravaged through action and a world was ravaged through deliberate inaction. They're both prideful idiots.

>>49882810
But that's wrong. Sorin was not aware that the Eldrazi Titans could be killed (Ugin maintained that they could not), and Sorin didn't have the ability to bind them again himself. Once the Eldrazi were released, Sorin started seeking out Ugin to try and find a way to seal the Eldrazi again. He wasn't aware of alternatives.

The closest he came to inaction was his brief stop back at Innistrad to try and save humanity.

>>49882978
Not the centuries he left Nahiri in the helvault and didn't do anything to make sure nothing might go wrong or that he could fix things without her?

Nahiri had told him that things went wrong once before.

>>49882697

Well, that's actually part of my point that this seems out of character for him.

One, making sure the Eldrazi never escape from Zendikar is in Sorin's best interest, and helping Nahiri keep her position as warden to them means Sorin has helped keep the balance while being free to pursue his own agendas, much like he did on Innistrad with Avacyn. This is an argument for Zendikar's security being a high priority for Sorin.

Two, Nahiri is, or at least was, Sorin's only real friend. While Sorin could be a dick, he did care about her, and her about him. This can't really be applied to anything else in the multiverse, arguably including Avacyn since they didn't have Avacyn consciously aware she was Sorin's creation until shortly before her death, and while Avacyn points out she is basically Sorin's daughter, Sorin himself does not ever acknowledge her as such.

So if Nahiri is a unique, important, and irreplaceable relationship for Sorin, her well-being would also be important to Sorin on the basis she means something to him personally (the only reason black does anything for anyone else) and Zendikar should STILL be something he regards as important rather than treating it with indifference.