>the imperium >not monstrous >not murdering innocents

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>implying that humanity wouldn't be extinct without the guiding light of the Emperor

The Imperium may not be the best buts still the best that there is. In a galaxy where everything wants to kill you, a human, a oppressive regime is good. There's just other option for humanity if they're going to survive among the stars.

P.S. The Tau suck and will all die within next century.

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>>49805151
>implying no is going to do anything about it

Welcome to the party. Chainaxes are in the corner.

>>49805151
...and?
They're a monster because only monsters survive.
When demons roam and good men cower you must be bloody and vigilant in warding off the darkness.
I'm not touching that one, /pol/ can have it.
They know it is awful, they know even He is awful. But he is our best and only hope.
Okay now this one is bullshit. It wasn't intentional unless they were heretics. The Imperium doesn't waste lives. It always spends them. Doesn't always get a very good exchange rate on them, but it still spends them.

>>49805151
No one denies this shit.

>>49805151
>>49805172
The Imperium COULD do better. There are many tough decisions the High Lords must make in which there is no right answer, but that doesn't change the fact that more often than not they still are incompetent idiots. /tg/ has pointed out numerous ways in which the Imperium could do better while still maintaining its integrity.

Is the Imperium as it is currently nice? No, not at all. Is it the worst regime ever? Depends on your planet. It's certainly the LARGEST regime ever, and on a galactic scale the politics are absolutely fucked, but there's nothing to stop you from being born on a planet in the inner systems, with a lack of pollution, a republican government, and maybe even one of the nicer Space Marine chapters using you as a recruiting world!

There's good AND horrible in the Imperium. In all aspects. It's a setting of overreaching grimdark, but punctuated by the tiny lights of great heroes.

I know what a bunch of fence-sitters right? Either commit and go full dark eldar grimdark, or embrace being the good guys like the tau.

Enough of this gray morality bullshit!

>>49805308
>Tau
>Good guys
Talk about being blue pilled

>>49805151
It's that or oblivion. There used to be nice civilisations out there. Used to be.

>>49805308
>1984 neimodian edition
>good guys

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>>49805217
Check out this loyalist!

He thinks the corpse king can save them!

>>49805398
As opposed to an angry shouting man who never gets up, a crazy bird squid, /d/, and the magical equivalent of a cum bottle that someone shat in that later came to life.
You know what I'll take the magic god king skeleton over that.

Also you look stupid with all those arrows. I thought you guys were chaotic but it's always spikes and arrows with you.

>>49805464
At least the Imperium doesn't hold chronic backstabbing disorder as the gold standard of morality. They at least have some heroes and bros thrown in amongst the social darwinists and jackass nobles for the sake of variety, rather than Chaos or DEldar where everyone's in a massive dick-showing competition over who's the most stupidly evil.

>>49805502
Honsou is a pretty good person when it comes to the whole 'not backstabbing your ally' arena. If he and the Iron Warriors were imperial they would probably be the equivalent Ultramarines.

>>49805576
>Honsou
>person who invented the Daemonculaba
>"a good person"

Fukkin wut

Don't get me wrong, Honsou is a lot more "honorable" than most CSM (probably because of the paranoia) but the dude has done such incredibly fucked-up shit that he's far from ANY definition of "a good person."

>>49805576
Though they still make a point of conducting the most horrific experiments and tortures "FOR SCIENCE"

it is what is necessary.

People miss the point of the Imperium, more often than not.

The Imperium is just as evil as the things it fights, without exception. It is the lawful evil to the chaotic evil of Chaos. It is the intelligent evil to the mindless evil of the Orks. It is the blunt evil to the subtle evil of the Eldar.

But it is, none the less, pure evil. And more than that, it is it's own worst enemy. The very actions it takes do nothing but provide the situations for it's enemies to thrive.

>>49805640
>>49805660
In the case of the deamonculaba, it was done for practical reasons and not malicious intent which a person like Fabius Bile probably would.

>>49805757
>People miss the point of the Imperium, more often than not
Personally, I think it's because people don't realize that 40k is grimdark, or they don't really know what grimdark is.

>>49805757
Well it's not "pure evil". Even Chaos isn't "pure evil" as much as every fucking Chaos Lord would like to sell themselves. I also wouldn't say the Imperium is as evil as Chaos/DEldar - who exist for the sole purpose of edge - or Ork who have no concept of good or evil.

They're humans trying to survive in the shittiest conditions possible and winning - but also failing very slowly and horribly.

>>49805792
Inquisitors are just as ruthless, just as bloodthirsty, and just as obsessed as any Chaos Lord.

And the Inquisition, an organization created to fight Chaos, heresy, and aliens, spends as much, if not more, of it's resources and attention on fighting each other over fighting their enemies.

Hell, let me ask you this: if you were to make the Inquisition devoted to Tz instead of the Emperor, would it change in the slightest how it acts?

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>>49805151
You're the fuckhead that thinks Chaos is the better alternative, makes a deal with a deamon for his own personal gain, and then stabs all of his friends in the back, only to be raped by that deamon in the warp when your plot falls apart and your head blown apart by a commissar and it claims your soul as its own personal fuckslave.

>hurr my personal freedom
>hurr its not okay if innocent people die
>durr the ends don't justify the means

We're trying to save literally all of humanity from being wiped out and raped by real deamons, monsterbugs, or Orks.
So what if the ]I[nquistion destroys the odd planet to stop the spread of deaomic incursions or chaotic corruption?
So what if the ]I[nquisition shoots a regiment of innocent or mostly innocent soldiers if the threat of corruption could bring down the entire sector?

When the stakes of failure are as high as total annihilation, any sacrifice short of that is justified.

>>49805151
No, the Imperium is pretty monstrous. It's a core facet of 40K. I'm pretty sure one of the first things ever said about the Imperium is that it's the absolute worst regime that humanity has ever suffered under.

>>49806152
Yes because you can see the difference in any person who falls to Chaos. Chaos is unredeemably fucking evil. There are plenty of evil pricks in the Imperium, but if someone said "fuck you, I'm throwing you into 40k" I wouldn't immediately go "WELP everyone's equally evil, I'll carve stars into my flesh and side with Chaos!"

I'm not saying the Imperium is perfect, or denying all the fucked up shit, but I'm saying it IS better. ABSOLUTELY better. Than Chaos.

>>49806419
Not in the slightest. Chaos is simply more honest about what it does.

The Imperium kills just as many of it's own people, much less it's enemies, for just as meaningless of reasons. Inquisitors will swarm over a world, murdering anyone and everyone they believe is tainted, regardless of their actual guilt. There's a reason one of the most famous quotes from an Inquisitor is "An innocent man is guilty of wasting my time." And that's not even beginning to talk about what the rest of the Imperium does. Centuries long wars that kill millions over nothing simply because they refuse to leave. Intentionally leaving people in squalor, disease, and death simply to line the pockets of the nobility. Religious cults that duel to the death over the most minor of differences in their beliefs, claiming the other is a heretic and liar. You can find hundreds of examples of the Imperium engaging in the exact same kinds of actions that any Chaos warband does.

There's no doubting that Chaos is evil, but it's no more evil than the Imperium. It simply doesn't hide behind the belief that what it is doing is somehow justified.

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>>49806589
>Chaos
>Honest
Nice meme, kiddo

>>49805788
This. People saying that the Imperium is doing the best it can should be smashed in the face by the Emperor's mighty boot.

The whole point of the Religiosity of Humanity is that the Emperor would find the changes made abhorrent and inhumane.

The whole point of the Tau is to show that Humanity is cruel even to the least evil entity still kicking (yeah morons, they're still evil as fuck, but read and you'll learn that they're less fucked than all else)

The whole point of chaos is essentially showing how fucked up Humanity is, given that in most early lore 3/4 Chaos Gods were created by humanity.

The whole point of the Eldar is to show that the Humans don't know what they're doing. They're tricked by a race that's dying out because they fucked a chaos god into existence.

The whole point of 40k is that everything is shit piles. Just because you can relate to things with human faces doesn't mean you have to suck their dicks all the time, grow up.

>>49807038
And yet you never see heroes come out of Chaos. Again, yes, the Imperium is a shit heap, but not every single person, by virtue of their nature, is pure fucking evil. There are people like Sgt. Bastonne, the Lamenters, the Salamanders, and Ibram Gaunt. People who carry on the human spirit.

Chaos INHIBITS this. Even if you START on the path of Chaos with good "intentions" you will inevitably end up a chew toy. But only after you've killed all your loved ones, mutilated your body, and gone completely batshit insane.

Who would win in a fight: all of chaos or a stick?

>>49805640
You know, I've never really gotten why people hold up the daemonculaba as the epitome of evil. Sure, it's bad, really really bad, but thinking that's the worst that could happen shows a lack of imagination.

>>49807137
Depends. How shiny and golden is the stick?

>>49807038
The whole point of the religiosity of humanity is that the space marines are space knights and need an excuse to crusade.

The whole of tau is "we want the anime audience".

The whole point of chaos is that God listens to SLAYER.

The whole of the Eldar is that they are elves. In space.

The whole point of 40k is that in the grim darkness of the future there is only war. Played out with 28mm miniatures. Or 6mm. Or 40mm if you're really crazy.

>grow up
Apply yourself.

>>49807102
>you never see heroes come out of Chaos
Heroes to who? Humanity? Of course not.

Nurgle and his brood love each other, in their own strange way. They're the closest you'll get to good in Chaos.

You're just looking at Chaos as a "path" humans take, which is wrong. It's like saying Eldar all suck because when they take the Path of Humanity they die every time.

Daemons have alien morality.

>not every single person, by virtue of their nature, is pure fucking evil
No shit? Pure evil doesn't exist except as maybe Khorne. Even the good guys you mentioned commit acts that would disgust you or I today. You're just comparing them to others in the Imperium, but still trying to use an objective morality on Chaos. Pretty silly.

>>49805151
Yeah, and?

>>49805231
I thought it was the Imperium of Snuggles and Sunshine.

>>49807220
>God listens to SLAYER
Here I thought this thread was about 40k lore. My bad.

>The whole point of the religiosity of humanity is that the space marines are space knights and need an excuse to crusade
Hi newfriend! You may not know but back in the 30k timeline, the biggest crusade was done for the goal of uniting humanity under the Emperor who enforced the athiestic and antireligious standpoint of his Imperial Truth. So you see, the current situation would be like real life Knights crusading in the name of Satan. Their Lords would not approve.

>The whole of tau is "we want the anime audience".
Yeah 40k was totally not Mecha obsessed at all. Eldar Wraithsuits totally don't resemble sleek mechs more than the blocky Battlesuits, definitely not.

>The whole of the Eldar is that they are elves. In space.
>not realizing things are deeper than aesthetics after decades
Wew lad

>Apply yourself.
Be less of a moron, maybe real anything past Rogue Trader

>>49806589
There are no innocents in a war against Chaos. Chaos isn't a nation state, an ideology, or random groups of individuals banded by their honesty of their wants and hatred of the Imperium. Chaos is the bloodrage that clouds your eyes as you cleave both foes and allies alike. It is the final futile grasp at life while your body decays and rots. It is the whisper to backstab your best friend in the effort to gain his estates and beautiful wife. It is the cry of madness as you drain the blood of orphans to create your masterpiece. Chaos. There is only war. And wars cannot be won with half-measures.

>>49807180
Not very.

>>49807220
>>The whole of tau is "we want the anime audience".

Why do people keep bringing up anime and weaboos in discussions about the Tau? In what way do they have anything to do with anime or Japan?

>>49807334
And that very idea fuels chaos to no end. Every purge leaves survivors, who will swear vengeance or seek solace, who will go to any length to gain safety from their tormentors.

The entire irony of the Inquisition is that their methods create just as many cultists as they destroy. The Imperium is no real safer for their actions, the best comparison to be made is putting out every small fire while the forest fills with deadwood. Eventually they will miss one, and it will be that much worse for their actions before.

>>49805151
Please contact your nearest Inquisitorial Fortress

>>49807358
Because they have the only mechs (not counting every other faction in the game), are clean (not counting Eldar), have slightly samurai looking armour according to some people (who never saw the original sketch designs for Fire Warriors, where they look like pilots with a little armour), and most importantly because they got butthurt when tau were OP.

>>49807221
Listen, Nurgle and Slaanesh can talk about "love" all day long, but that doesn't hide the fact that they are fucking evil as shit. Alien morality be damned, Chaos only gives a shit about mass death and suffering.

If you were to look at the ideal endgame of regular humanity vs Chaos, regular humanity would at least enjoy shit like a peaceful existence not being devoured and tortured by horrors from beyond space 24/7. Chaos' ideal, MO, and entire purpose in a meta sense, is the wreaking of wanton destruction and torment.

They commit evil acts for the sake of them being evil, whether that evil be in the form of slaughter, plague, mutation, or horrific sex acts. They have no positive goals beyond maybe ending the universe and putting everyone out of their misery - which seems to be more of a side effect of the Chaos Gods' ideal of an eternal reign being contrary to the fabric of reality.

>>49807319
Look kids, it's the "I take 40k lore 100% seriously" fatguy.

Don't get too close, or you might catch his autism.

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>>49807319
>back in the 30k timeline

Black Library wankery. Means nothing.

>sleek mechs

Yeah, pic related looks absolutely nothing like a Tau mech.

>not realizing things are deeper than aesthetics after decades

Muh dying master race trope is certainly not present nor the defining feature of the Eldar Race.

>Here I thought this thread was about 40k lore. My bad.

It is, you're just dense.

Here's a protip for you though. The fact that the Imperium is brutal and metal as fuck is half the appeal of 40k. Because it is not a realistic nor deep setting and is not intended as such.

>>49807443
>regular humanity would at least enjoy shit like a peaceful existence not being devoured and tortured by horrors from beyond space 24/7
You mean exterminating every other living being so they can live their own way?

>Chaos' ideal, MO, and entire purpose in a meta sense, is the wreaking of wanton destruction and torment.
You mean exterminating every other living being so they can live their own way?

>They commit evil acts for the sake of them being evil
That's just false. They do in fact gain power from various attacks on humanity and each other. Khorne gains in power from war, Nurgle from pestilence, etc etc etc.

As opposed to humanity who burn primitive xenos to...gain in power for their own sake.

Your definition of evil seems to be: Anything that Harms Humans. Which is a really shitty definition in a sci-fi setting where humans do the same.

>>49807454
Look kids, it's the "I argue about lore and complain that people are arguing about lore" thatguy.

Don't get too close, or you might catch his autism.

>>49807465
>The fact that the Imperium is brutal and metal as fuck is half the appeal of 40k.
I play IG dipshit. I like they're not some mary-sue that is 100% right all the time. They're pretty shitty, I like that, and so that's what I've been saying the whole time.

>>49807363
It's a dirty job but someone has to do it.

Think about it, anon. You're pissing and moaning about the Inquisition problem, but you're not presenting alternatives.

And the reason you're not presenting real alternatives is because nothing else works. It absolutely HAS to be this way because everything's gone to such complete shit you can only run minute damage control.

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>>49807465
>Implying that the Great Crusade was a concept made by the BL and not Games Workshop.

>>49807465
>Black Library wankery. Means nothing.
Wat

>>49805757
No.
The point of the novel Pawns of Chaos is that the Imperium is the worst thing humanly conceivable... but they are opposing something so evil as to be inconceivable. Chaos.

>>49807102
>you never see heroes come out of Chaos

Because Black Library writers are hacks who can't see past muh spess muhreens

>OP
>not a heretic

>>49807358
Because most 40K fans are imbeciles who rely on lame stereotypes, questionable axioms, boring cliches, and memetic half-truths to either decry toy armies they dislike or praise toy armies they like. Rather than, you know, forming their own opinions.

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>>49807724
>What are the Gaunt's Ghosts novels
>What are the Last Chancers novels
>What are the Ciaphas Cain novels
>What are the Eisenhorn novels
>What are the Ravenor novels
>Who are the Imperial Guard
>Who are the Inquisition
>Black Library writers are hacks who can't see past muh spess muhreens

>>49807753
>all Imperium bullshit
>"hurr why are there no Chaos heroes"
hmmmm

>>49807526
Xenos are a separate thing. Xenos are a species-to-species basis. If so many of them weren't psychotic I'd also not approve of the Imperium's xenocide policy. But Chaos is something humans can turn to, and it's clearly fucking evil. It causes you to go insane, kill your friends, and turn into an abomination.

>>49807759
There are no Chaos heroes because Chaos are inhumanly, abominably evil.

Though there HAVE been Chaos PROTAGONISTS. The Night Lords trilogy by ADB, and anything from Horus Heresy from the perspective of the Traitor Legions both leap to mind.

>>49807799
Get a load a' this Watsonian narrativist. Don't you have some technobabble to fervently fact-check?

>>49807821
I don't think you fully understand what I'm saying.

The Chaos protagonists have never been expressly heroes or heroic in the least. The Night Lords skin dudes alive for kicks. And the Traitor Legionnaires are the primary reason why the 41st Millennium is as fucked up as it is.

bomb Games Workshop

>>49807924
The only sensible thing anyone ha said in this thread.

>>49807937
>>49807924

Give FFG the license and get the guys who did DH1e to write all the codices. They did better with the lore than GW ever did.

>>49807585
I'm not presenting alternatives because there are none. The entire point of the setting is that Chaos can't be defeated.

And the other point is that the Imperium decided it would sacrifice anything and kill as many people it needed in order to defeat an enemy they are aware can't be defeated.

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>>49805151
Yes, they are the monsters the galaxy needs to survive.

Are you western like me? How does it feels to have democracy and freedom assured by the sacrifice of millions of russians sent to the grinder by an absolute madman intent on destroying another?

Knowing that something as atrocious as the "let's-create-cannibal-island" Soviet Union was essential in winning WW2 leaves a bad taste in the mouth. I'm not saying there were any actual goody guys on it either.

So you see, that is the realistic part of WH40K. Things can be very horrible.

>>49807753
>>49807799
Fuck, what was the novel where the guard are in a war and the CSM are actually just defending themselves, and the priest in charge of the whole thing turns out to be a giant fucking dick who didn't start the war over the presence of chaos but just to murder all the locals so he could make a shitload of money?

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>>49808005
>He thinks he's free

>>49808022
>CSM are actually just defending themselves
Yeah sure, traitors who fought against humanity to plunge it in the literal Hell were just defending themselves. They aren't homicidal butt slaves to dark gods or anything.

>>49808071
Literally the plot of the novel is that the IG showed up to kill all the locals without any idea that it was a secret CSM recruiting ground, and the CSM are just trying to drive the IG off.

You don't even know about the CSM until like 2/3s of the way through the story. And they can't even really be considered the villains of the story either.

>>49807988
>Chaos can't be defeated
Oh joy, the Chaosfags arrive to brag about their unbeatable faction

>>49808022
This is the first I've heard of it, so I dunno. But it sounds like the kind of thing in-power officials might do. Generally, the Imperium is mostly kind of OK at ground-level because the Guard and civilians are just doing their jobs, and sometimes that job involves fighting horrific monsters from beyond reality.

>>49807988
So you're saying you'd prefer rolling over and dying, or being corrupted and driven batshit insane?

>>49808204
He says he'd prefer being a Chaosfag because he's a Chaosfag.

>>49808102
>IG showed up to kill all the locals without any idea that it was a secret CSM recruiting ground
I call this a happy accident. Emperor guided greedy asshole priest to do the right thing for once.

>>49808169
Flesh and Iron, by Henry Zou

>>49808286
Well, given that The priest dies in the end and the IG he betrayed and attempted to kill are now allies of those same CSM, the whole thing ends making shit a lot worse.

>>49808204
He is a suicidal manchild who wants to be killed but doesn't have balls to end himself. He is the type of person who commits suicide by cop and commits mass murder in Japan to be sentenced to death. In short, a typical Chaosfag.

>>49808305
>spoiler
Oh, it was a Chaos muhrines wankery all along. I suspected something like that.

>>49808279
>>49808204
There's no fucking side to be taken in this, guys.

Chaos isn't the better option, or the worse option, The whole fucking point is that living under either one is just a terrible, as soul crushing and as fatal as the other.

You seem to think that if the Imperium is complete and total evil, that somehow justifies Chaos.

>>49808316
Na, the Marines that show up either do talking or just lose their fights. I actually don't think a single CSM truly accomplishes anything by themselves in the novel, not personally. Been a while since I read it though, but they're very much not the focus.

>>49808332
>Na, the Marines that show up either do talking or just lose their fights
It doesn't matter. They win in the end, portrayed in better light than they deserve and chaoswank continues.

>>49808362
See, this is the stupid bullshit this thread is trying to get people to stop doing.

>>49808332
>Chaos isn't the better option or the worse option

Yes, Chaos is objectively the worse option.

At least the Imperium is human. It's a comedy of errors and absolutely horrific as a regime for all of mankind, but it's still human.

Can't say the same for the gribblies in the Warp, and if you're a human on the side of Chaos, you are actively and willingly subordinating yourself to those gribblies. You're actively making yourself part of the problem.

>>49808391
Yes, but see, Chaos offers something that the Imperium doesn't: a chance.

In the Imperium, your station is often determined before you are born, and you are expected to stick to it. There is no room for bettering yourself, for seeking something better, or even for your own thoughts. You are expected to blindly serve as slave labor, and accept it without any doubt. So what if you wish to be better? So what if you want your life to suck less? These thoughts are Heresy, and they will kill you for them.

Chaos, on the other hand, offers a chance. That chance is slim, most certainly, and almost all of those that take it die horrible deaths. But any one man or woman, if they're smart enough, fast enough, strong enough, and lucky enough, can become powerful enough to fulfill their every desire, no matter how grand or impossible.

Of course, the gods will twist you along the way, and you are almost certainly going to end up dead, but those odds are better than anything the Imperium gives it's citizens.

The Imperium gives it's people nothing, and kills them if they dare to complain. Chaos offers it's worshipers the universe, so long as they have the strength to take it.

>>49808437
And yet, if they bite it, the daemons get to nibble on their souls for literal eternity.

Nice bargain you struck there, guys.

Besides, in the Imperium, living conditions depend on the planet in question. Any issues imposed on the vast majority of Imperial citizens from higher up are purely local government issues.

Not to say that the Imperium doesn't have a LOT of governments who act this way, but it's still a case-by-case basis rather than a blanket policy. Plenty of average planets full of average people doing average things. Pay your tithe and shut up, we're fighting a war against Orks two systems over.

Doesn't sound too bad to me, honestly.

>>49808470
All souls go to the realm of chaos when they die, there's no distinctions between anyone.

>>49808491
Yeah, but it's one thing to go to the Warp kicking and screaming.

It's another thing entirely to just offer it up.

Besides, there's occasional implications the Emperor protects. That's enough for some folks.

>>49805151
everyone knows the imperium is monstrous this thread is fucking pointless

>>49808491
>All souls go to the realm of chaos when they die, there's no distinctions between anyone.
Not me. When I die, my soul will be drawn into the Light and Protection of the Astronomicon, where only the faithful may tread and where we gather around our beloved God-Emperor in eternal bliss.

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>>49805151
>the sky
>not blue
>not having birds that fly over the ground
>not a border between earth and the void
>implying muh Zeus fags weren't afraid of a collection of concetrated vapor releasing power
>implying the sky didn't burn thousands of forests to ash

>taking Warhammer this seriously

>>49808071
>Chaos are good boys, they dindu nuffin. They were goin to da church to praise gods and try turn life around. Dey need more slaves for da black crusades.

>>49812222
Stealing this for a DH chaos cult.

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>ctrl+"necron"
>0 results
So, no one wants to acknowledge the REAL HEROES? The people who built the pylon? The people who not only have the will to drive out not just Chaos but the warp itself, and have the means to do so?

>>49805151
yeah yeah yeah tell us all about how great it'll be when chaos consumes the corrupt material world.

>>49805217
The Administratium will starve millions to save billions. Its on their business cards.

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Wait weren't the interrex pretty cool?

>>49806152
It probably already is given how often inquisitors, even non radical ones, turn out to be turncoats.

>>49813907
They were indeed, but unfortunately they tried to be centralist pacifists in 40k, and so we wiped out in the Pre-Heresy plotting stage.

The ideal Imperium would probably be a midway between the Emp's vision and the Interex.

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>>49813511
I prefer oldcrons enslaved to Ctan mysteriously waking up, showing up at worlds in a flash of green lightening at random to harvest entire worlds of souls for their ravenous Ctan masters.

To me it's a better theme than Tombkings in space.

But I agree that Necrons are the best adversaries of chaos. They're the only ones who are both immune to corruption and who don't feed the dark powers with emotion.