What would your paladins and other knightly types have to say

>>49762252
I would look for another GM who doesn't force his waifu into the game.

I'd stick around in the hopes of recreating a "you killed Kiara!" moment. That's all GMs like OP are good for anyway.

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>>49762303

fpbp, I'd have to say.

I'm not opposed to the idea of playing a paladin or knight who serves a child liege. Could be interesting.

But I have zero idea who this person in the OP is, and if my GM showed it to me the only thing I would get out of it is "small anime girl". Which is a giant fucking red flag for me.

>>49762394
She's King Arthur.

>>49762303
/thread

But I'd accept the Saber from Zero.

>>49762486
Fate Fucking Zero was amazing. "Edgy teen fanfic?" Sure. Fucking insane and awesome? Hell yes.

Sir lancelot hijacking a fighter jet to engage in a dogfight with a Mesopotamian God-king while King Arthur and Alexander the Great fight Cthulhu in the ocean below is fucking beautiful.

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>>49762486
>>49762532
>Zero-only shitters

Like using only supplements and ignoring core books and thinking you're gonna have anything decent.

>>49762252
Fate zero saber? Total devotion. Fate stay night saber? Noooope. Especially the visual novel one.

>>49762252

Probably not complain. As far as lieges go, one can do worse than Arturia. At least she won't do the typical shit with making you do heinous shit to prove your loyalty or whatever.

>>49762558

But Saber is basically not allowed to matter to shit in Zero.

>>49762581
It's a side effect of her role in Zero having already been established in the VN. They didn't have much wiggle room.

She still came off as a total bad ass though.

>>49762758

You think? It felt to me like she basically spent 75% of the series either being told how wrong and dumb she was, or being little more than Kiritsugu's agency-less tool.

Granted, the fact that my opinion on Kiritsugu was "I thought Shirou was a shitty, boring protagonist... and then I met his dad. Now I miss him" probably didn't help in the slightest.

>>49762783
Well she is wrong, her entire story arc in the VN is her finally realizing that she is trying to martyr herself for no reason and needs to start thinking about herself for once.

I didn't mind Kiritsugu either, he was just I an impossible situation with no good way out. He wasn't supposed to be a hero, just a guy who was willing to make the hard decisions.

Waver was the real Hero anyway.

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>>49762252
I have no idea who this person is, so thinking on the knightly orders my game has, she'd be laughed at, bullied by the gnolls, told to go murder a boar and drag it back to earn some respect, and finally she'd have to deal with the local Governor getting pissed some tart is strolling in to act like a cute idiot and claim ownership.

>>49762442

No, she's Saber making a fib so shallow that it's astounding that anyone believes her at all.

>>49762913
>>49762394
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zDt40QiY_4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eQtDpN1mcc

>>49762252
Considering one of the knightly orders in the game I'm running just became convinced that the young woman -garbed in the robes of a heathen religion, who appeared before them first in the guise of a spider- is a fucking angel, I'd say any other order would be fine.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy my players torpedoing mass combat encounters through incredibly lucky social rolls.

>>49762252
The only real requirement for being King is the ability to kick the ass of anyone that disagrees with you. In that aspect she'd make a fine king.

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>>49762252
That she's a shit tier saber

>>49762554
Why not it works for 3.5 and pathfinder

>>49762783
I just appreciate a character who brings a gun to a wizard fight.

And who bring a 9/11 to a fortress fight.

>>49763174
I believe you mean "cute tier Saber"

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSdm0rE3nWU

>>49763429
No, definitely shit tier in comparison

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyxME9uC_Sc

>>49763429
>>49763452
They're both shit compared to Gawain, so why argue?

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>>49763478
>gawain
>not literal garbage

>Not realizing that Medb is the best girl

>>49763174
>Said she's shit
>Posting a bigger shit

Didn't the best Saber come from the future, in which all Lancers had been killed or imprisoned in a dystopian cyber-punk setting, in order to kill all Saber-faces?

>>49763499
>red saber
>not objectively better than vanilla

>>49762866
>no good way out.

Fate kaleid proves this is bullshit, because any way out that gives what amounts to a humonculous vessel for a holy grail a regular life with her ex-bodyguard maids and adopted older brother can't be that bad.

How you actually feel about kaleid is besides the point, i'm just saying it proves there's a good way out and kiritsugu in zero is a fuckhead.

>>49763510
Saber should only come in two colors. Blue and Black.

https://youtu.be/UeRPQ489-Ps

>>49763543
I don't even comprehend what's happening in Kaleid. But it seems to have created its own set of problems.

>>49763604
whats happening in Kaleid is pumping out bait for creepy lolicons.

>>49763174
>not dressed in roman garb
>a waif
>blond

Did Nasu just think the bame 'Nero' was really cool and make everything else up?

>>49763604
Kaleids base universe is one where kiritsugu was capable of preventing the fourth holy grail war that destroyed the majority of the city, and also somehow saving both irisviel and illya in the process.

Basically, its kiritsugu's "Good end".

The issue's spawning from it come from another side dimension because zelreth's true magic sets precedent to make it possible. That and the tools he made to facilitate usage of that magic also help that along.

>>49763657
>Nasu
>Making things up

Don't ask questions you already know the answer too

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>>49763657
pretty much except she is still a whore that thinks she's teh best at everything and forces people to listen to concerts and shit

Made hilarious by the fact that her noble phantasm ACTUALLY MAKES HER THE BEST AT WHATEVER SHE SAYS SHE IS THE BEST AT

its worth noting that very few heroic spirits actually dress like the cultures they are supposedly from, Cu Chulainn and Dairmud being obvious offenders.

have a more roman looking nero

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>>49763510
>>49763581
>>49763657
The fuck are all you faggots arguing about? All your waifus are shit.

Kirei is undoubtedly best girl.

>>49763686
Mapo ramen kirei a best kirei.

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>>49763510
Who's more delusional: the mad emperor (female) with delusions of grandeur, or the waifufag who takes the delusions at face value?

>>49763692
You know what's good.

>>49763684
Wouldn't dressing like their native culture be a huge tip-off as to who they are?
Or did they stop giving a fuck about hiding their identities at some point

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>>49763706
I mean to some extent yes but most still maintain a charade of looking like their culture.

Regardless, there is exactly one best girl in all of fate and his name is EDISON

IMBUED WITH THE POWER OF EVERY US PRESIDENT EVER TO SAVE AMERICA.

>>49763706
That first point is a good one. Most Magi force the heroic spirits to keep it a secret. The holy grail knows that.

>>49763686
> ...running at a pace of a hundred meters per seven seconds.

Holy shit Kotomanly.

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>>49763626
I went to a convention last month cosplaying Shirou. At one point I got stopped by a teenager who wanted to talk about his "theories regarding the connections between the Zero and Prisma Ilya universes."

That was the day I finally had to accept the fact that the Fate series has become such a mainstream franchise that I now have neither the energy or the interest in the spinoffs to keep current with its entirety.

To his credit, I think he caught on to the fact that I didn't know a goddamn thing about Prisma after a minute or so.

>>49763684
>Roman Emperor
>Not wearing purple and white
What in the actual fuck

>>49762252
>Mfw one of the characters I'm playing in a game is esentially a Saber clone
>Mfw her cohort is literally Shirou
>Mfw I had submitted them half-jokingly
>Mfw the DM and the group has yet to realize

>>49763789
>shirou cosplay

so you wore a shirt and some jeans and dyed your hair orange?

>>49763792
Its more about keeping to Nero's personal color scheme of red and gold.

consistency in character

>>49763834
Imagine, if you will, all of that, but instead of a person wearing it there is a sword.

>>49763847
Kek

>>49763834
>not building an arsenal of swords and shrouding your left arm
Maybe if I was a pleb.

One of these days I'm going to figure out how to get Berserk Herc's axe-sword onto a plane and then things are going to get fun (and impractical!).

>>49763789
What "theories" could there be? It's pretty blatant that they're alternate realities in the Nasu multiverse. Just like everything else in the franchise.

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>>49763857
I love this series for the sheer absurdity of the things you can say happen.

> I AM BECOME SWORDS

>>49763876
The Nasuverse is literally composed of infinite alternate realities, this is a concept frequently referenced within Kalied to that the fact that its not obvious is sad.

Its also pretty explicitly how the heaven's feel story is able to be won because Rin completes the Jeweled sword of Zelretch and thus can harness the magic of infinite alternate realities and uses that to defeat Dark Sakura.

>>49763834
>have red hair
>normally wear jeans
>had a shirt like anime man's
let me tell you, the best way to never want to wear a shirt again is to have some weeb stop you on the side of the road because you look like his favorite anime

>>49763870
Part it out into luggage sized pieces and bolt them together with PVC pipe or whatever

>>49763892
the only things i know to be connected are the zero>staynight continuity and the ryougi and tohno/arcueid places continuities.

Its gone on record that their a couple cities away. Makes you wonder why people from one don't help in another.

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>>49763899
but anon look at this incredibly distinctive and unique clothing that a person would only wear to be cosplaying as this character?

>>49763879
>Late at night at the Emiya household a certain girl is woken up by a soft whisper.

"I am the bone of my sword"

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>>49763949

>>49763916
As I recall, Shirou's puppet body in Heaven's Feel True is made by Touko.

>>49763916
They've got their own problems to deal with. Also when they meet up shit like this happens.

https://youtu.be/X3g0LPI-zEA

>>49763986
correct

Red Saber tiers:
Caesar > shit> Mordred >>>>>>> Nero

a /tg/ thread died for this

>>49764057
if it wasn't a garbage thread it wouldn't have died.

>>49763986
If i also recall, archer's red jacket was a holy shroud of some sort ciel gave to shiro.

>>49763989
This is true. Never let two socially inept teens try and game several superpowered women. It only goes badly.

>>49762252
Honestly I think she would jive with the paladins. Whenever /tg/ talks about "paladins fuck yeah", they always write them as being completely sure of their righteousness, above the petty morality of their peers for a true good, and frankly that fits well with the kind of Kong that Saber ended up being in her strive to become ideal.

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>>49764022
This man knows what he's about

>>49763684
Cu Chulainn's blue jumpsuit is based on blue body paint, which absolutely has historical precedent for his native culture. That's why nearly all of the Gaelic servants wear skintight bodysuits; it's a stand-in for being naked in body paint, which would probably not have gone over well.

I mean, you're not wrong, but Best Dog was just about the worst example you could have used there.

How many clone Sabers are out there at this point anyway? It's hard to keep track of them all

>>49764625
that actually look the same? approximately 5-6 individual characters, not counting alters or lily.

There's also a super busty version of arturia from a timeline where she chooses to use rhongomyniad over excalibur.

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>>49764625
>O.G. Saber
>Saber Alter
>Nero
>Mordred
>Jeanne
>Jeanne Alter
>Okita
>Mysterious Heroine X
>Lancer Arturia
>Lancer Arturia Alter

If you count alternate costumes that are treated as different characters in the mobage, then there's also Nero Bride, Swimsuit Artoria, and Santa Alter.

>>49764805
>>49764736
Fuck, I forgot Saber Lily. But you get the point.

>>49764805
>not counting alters or lily

Its like you didn't even try to read. Also, mysterious heroine X is regular saber trying to be sneaky, so that doesn't count.

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>>49764820
Do saber clones from other franchises entirely also count

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>>49764805
The original is still the best. She can rock a suit and battle dress. Gotta get a girl that does both.

>>49764839
The one asking the question didn't specify that he wasn't counting them, smartass.

>>49764863
No, but its retarded to count the same person several times. Just because they are under the effects of some stupid shit doesn't automatically make them an entirely separate character.

And i say not counting lily because that can lead to both regular saber and lancer saber.

>>49763174
Every Saber is shit-tier

>>49765283
What is best class and why is it Lancer?

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>>49764848
>other franchises
You do not understand how much of a gigantic advantage you've just given Best Girl.

>>49765852
Gilles' OC tulpa > real Jannu

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>>49765899
Historical Jeanne trumps them both though. She was incredibly cheeky and more interesting than most fictional interpretations of her.

>>49765924
The fictional Jeanne is more realistic than the historical french mary sue

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>>49765998
>historical french mary sue
Such a shame that the records of France, England and the Catholic Church alike agree on Jeanne's nature. In fact, we don't see the "hurr durr Jeanne a whore and a witch" meme turn up until Shakespeare, the supposedly "great" writer who spent half his career spitting vitriol at the enemies of his royal sponsors.

As far as female saints go Olga of Kiev > Jeanne.

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Atilla best Saber.

My ancient Hun warlord can't be this cute.

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>>49766030
>Genocidal freak
>"Saint"

>>49766048
>devoted wife that was ready and willing to make sure that her husband's murderers would face their just punishment
>genocidal freak

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>>49766070
How is burning down an entire city through pigeons that were set on fire part of being a good Christian again?

>>49766077
Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.

>>49763054
>character is based of king arthur
>animuh pose
my autism

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>>49766077
How is it not?

How does one, uh... "Get into" fate?

>>49766122
You don't.

Run. Run and never turn back.

>>49764533
Best dog didn't even get his sparkledog hair.

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>>49763174
>calling other sabers shit-tier
>posts whore of Babylon
The absolute madman! Does having her in your general vicinity give you STDs?

>>49766122
Read the VN is the best way, most people tend to go with 0 animu -> UBW series -> shitposting online

>>49766122
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAx8f-VGzCw

>>49766139
>A video on how to watch videos
Isn't that like a book on how to read books?

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>>49765924
>When asked about her mission once, one of the questions was what language her voices spoke
>"They speak better French than you."

>Refused to answer a question once because she answered it a week ago
>The scribe didn't believe her and she told him to search the record
>It was, and she joked if he made a mistake again she'd pull his ears

>She was asked if she was in God's grace
>If she said she was, the cleric would've hounded her for the sin of presuming to know God's mind
>If she wasn't, she condemned herself
>She answered "If I am not, may God bring me to it; if I am, may God keep me in it."
>The brilliance of the answer stunned the court

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>>49766191
>"If I am not, may God bring me to it; if I am, may God keep me in it."
Huh?

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>>49766218
It's theological shit, it was a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. She gave a middle ground answer that was perfectly in line with established theological doctrine, admitting her ignorance to the full extent of God's will while at the same time expressing her desire to follow what has been revealed of it to the fullest. So pretty much "I don't know if I'm in God's Grace, I hope I am but if I'm not then I hope God brings me to His grace".

For an illiterate peasant girl, she artfully dodged a theological trap laid to get her condemned for heresy one way or another.

>>49766122
Despite all the shit it gets, the original stay night anime is the best entry point in the series.

Both because it does an admirable job attempting to explain the core concepts, and because it only gets better from there.

>>49765924
She also preferred to fight battles by bringing in as many cannons as possible a blasting the shit out of everything.

So pretty much exactly how you expect a teenager to fight a war.

>>49766442
If you are already in a war, you use everything you have to the best of your abilities, assuming it doesn't blaspheme in some way.

Last i checked, a row of cannons weren't blasphemous, so its fair game.

>>49762252
Anime is shit.

>>49764625
Archer Artoria
Artoria Pendragon (Hana no Miyako)
Devil Saber
Galactica Saber
Gray
Goddess of Rhongomyniad
Hungry Saber
Jeanne d'Arc
Jeanne d'Arc Alter
King Saber
Lancer Artoria
Lancer Artoria Alter
Master Artoria
Mordred
Mysterious Heroine X
Nero
Nero Bride
Okita Souji
Rider Santa Alter
Saber Alter
Saber Lily
Saber Lion
Surfer Mordred
Ultra Heroine Z

Maybe more.

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>>49766442
There's literally nothing wrong with how teenagers fight wars.

>>49763686

Kirei is basically that Akagi shitposter that plagued /tg/ some time ago.

>>49766191
>>"They speak better French than you."

LE GLACE FLAMBER

>>49766122
For max weeb, play Realta Nua (a remake of the original VN), read the Zero novel, then play Hollow Ataraxia

For casual normie, watch Zero, then Unlimited Blade Works, then wait for the Heaven's Feel Movie

>>49768197
The "max weeb" way is kind of the only correct way (though I guess most people substitute Zero anime for the novel, though). The "casual normie" way doesn't really work, considering how Zero expects you to know what happens in Stay Night (that first episode really drops a few bombs otherwise), and UBW anime, while looking good, gives us all those "Shirou is a Mary Sue" guys thanks to the changes/stuff they left out.

Kind of scared yet at the same time excited for the Heaven's Feel adaption, I wonder if they'll botch things up, and if they do, how much?

>>49768197
Realta Nua with patch that adds the sex scenes back in, you don't want to miss the comedy gold that is them.

>>49768256
I'm excited for Heaven's Feel because True Assassin is one of my favorite servants and it's the only route he gets any screen time in. Plus looking forward to the Kirei scenes.

Thinking on it, you're right about Zero. I skipped the original Fate anime so I can't vouch for it, but I know VNs don't mesh well with many people.

>>49768308
I'm personally excited since it gives more screen time for the best girl duo (that being Sakura & Rider), but True Assassin is also nice. I wonder if we could get a Sparks Liner High OVA or something, that would be pretty hype.

People don't often like VNs for some reason, could be something like "many think they are just porn", which isn't all that wrong, but not exactly right, either.

>>49768396
Sakura legitimately made me angry in HF. Rin too. Everyone was an idiot.

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>>49764858

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>>49764858
Vanilla OG Seiba is unnecessary now. She has been improved.

>>49768859
Not my Seiba

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>>49768732
>Everyone was an idiot.
Even best girl?

>>49762554
Fate/Prototype or bust, then?

>>49768966
I already said Rin acted like an idiot.

>>49763657
Romans fucking loved blondes. So did Greeks.

Nero specifically DECIDED to look like that when incarnated as a heroic spirit. The original Nero was the male neckbeard he was IRL.

>>49768293
The stupidest thing is the changes to sakuras backstory

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>>49763174

>>49769010
actually no the original Nero was also female in the fate universe

>>49769010
>The original Nero was the male neckbeard he was IRL.
What, really? Where's that said?

>>49769234
its not said anywhere because its not true.

>>49768859
I don't see a suit or a battle dress. Nice thighs/sideboob/underboob, but I don't think that's an improvement overall. Class >= Ass
>>49768824
It's a pretty good look, I'll admit. I'm glad Iskander let her borrow the cape.

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>>49762252
I'd roll to kill to the GM's waifu cunt

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>>49769310
Wrong Kniggaaaaaaa

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>>49769295
>I don't see a suit or a battle dress.
300% more armored than vanilla.

>>49762303
it's funny, Fate/Stay is quite literally a good concept with a terrible DM forcing his waifu's and fetishes into it

>>49769347
The DM put her in at player (market's) request. Proto Saber was a golden haired bishounen.

>>49769336
>Red spikes on her lance
>Spikes on her armor
>Red eyes on her horse

I didn't think a good Saber could be this edgy looking

>>49769387
That's Artoria Lancer Alter, so you aren't exactly wrong.

>>49769310
What mod is that houseman? The helmet and top middle armor are unfamiliar to me.

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>>49763733
>American Noble Phantasm
>Not George Washington
You had ONE JOB.

>>49769445
Edison was a weak heroic spirit because he was recent

To make up for this during his summoning he was given the power of every president of the unites states of america

So he literally has the power of every president.

>>49762252
The Purest!

>>49769460
No, I heard what you said.

I'm saying the choice to make it Edison, and not Washington, is dumb as fuck. Edison invented some shit, and exploited the fuck out of the patent system to get rich.

>>49762252
Simply leave. I'm not gonna indulge my DM on this one.

>>49769336
It has the bell bottom, but there's no elegance to that. It's like the silhouette of a knight superimposed on a dress and covered in spikes and scales at random.

>>49769532
so its only fitting that he basically steals the power of everyone else to not suck

>>49769445
>Noble Phantasms:
>Wooden teeth
>Cherry tree and axe
>All of his monuments

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>>49769855
>All American soldiers in history ever
He's such a high rank that they couldn't give him anymore stars.

>>49766240
>It's theological shit, it was a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. She gave a middle ground answer that was perfectly in line with established theological doctrine, admitting her ignorance to the full extent of God's will while at the same time expressing her desire to follow what has been revealed of it to the fullest. So pretty much "I don't know if I'm in God's Grace, I hope I am but if I'm not then I hope God brings me to His grace".
>For an illiterate peasant girl, she artfully dodged a theological trap laid to get her condemned for heresy one way or another.
This is also what we call "pulling a Jesus".

The Gospels are full of people trying to trip Jesus up with similar dilemmas only for him to bust out similar answers.

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>>49769895
Sorry, wrong rank.

>>49769855
I want Washington to be a Rider and his Noble Phantasm be the canoe he crossed the Potomac with.

>>49769234
Nasuverse Nero is just a blonde little girl who also happens to look like King Arthur, who is also a blonde little girl. In the Nasuverse there never was a Roman neckbeard emperor named Nero.

>>49769923
It was the Delaware, wasn't it?

>>49769936
And King Arthur looks like Nero because there was a roman general named Arturius

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>>49769944
You're right.

Imagine this thing flying through the air a la Zero Rider

>>49769980
>You will never see Washington and Alexander bro out at a 'council of kings'

Just kill me now.

>>49769979
No, they look the same because that way it's possible to make seibabucks from Extra without including Arturia.

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I really like Fate, specifically the way heroic spirits work along with their weapons and abilities.
posting best girl
Sakura a shit, worst girl in the series, most boring and shit love interest, and just awful character all around that added nothing to the game.

Best ending in stock vanilla good Fate end with the patch. Second best is Rins Harem end.

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>>49769441
I think it was just diplomacy that I added some OSP armours to
I think they're from narfs man at arms pack or something, good stuff
1257 is my favourite mod I'd say, maybe
Warsword is /tg/ related, but it's pretty shitty in ways

>>49769368
with a female summoner, hence the "I am your Sheath" bit.

It was meant to be metaphorical and physical.

Because she would be his sheath.

I mean for his dick.

>>49769805
Touche'

>>49769923
Historically speaking, Washington would be a rider and his noble phantasm would be running the fuck away because he excelled at retreats.

I'm not memeing. It was basically his best manuever. Which was convenient because he did it a lot because he was shiiiiiiiiiit in the field.

>>49770038
Thank you my banner brother.

>>49762486
That is the saber from zero you retard

>>49770079
>criticizing america's holy cow

Your cuntry is gonna get shitload of canned freedom delivered to it.

>>49770081
I also know anons on /vg/ have done stuff with some mods, you'd have to find out from them but I know there's a custom diplomacy, 1257 and nipmod

>>49769996
>You will never see them sit down and argue over the merits of autocracy vs democracy, grand ambition vs responsiblity to the people. military skill vs leaving a stable foundation for a new country

>>49770046
Fun fact: "vagina" comes from the latin word for a "sheath"

>>49770113
I'm an american and Washington was a terrible general. he was a great DIPLOMAT though, and forward thinking enough not to buy into his own hype.

>>49762252
What is she blocking?

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>>49762252
It matters not who holds the crown so long as they are just. I may be a simple sergeant, but I'll fight for my lands just as the knights and lords would if my Queen commands it
It's funny because NOT!england in the setting is actually currently ruled by a 14-year old princess who they party is protecting after saving her during the coup against her father.

>>49770156
Getting molested by the witch of dindu and liking it.

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>>49770138
> Prior to the adoption of the Latin word in English the penis was referred to as a "yard".

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>>49762532
>KEKACOCK
>good
WEW
E
W

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>>49763510
>Whore of Babylon
>better than anything

>>49770184
>the witch of dindu

But the lady in question is a black sea slav, not an American.

>>49769999
It was also to troll people into thinking they were getting seiba BUT SURPRISE IT WAS ME RED SABER ALL ALONG UMU

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>>49763704
Clearly the Emperor a shit. Chaos > Emperor

>>49770228
>Melvin is here
Oh no

>>49770299
Who?

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Brown alien Saber > Earthling Sabers

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>>49770351
Sun > Mars

>>49762252
Who/what is that?

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>>49770378

>>49770378
There's a Japanese visual novel titled Fate/stay night, in which King Arthur appears as a character. The producers wanted the protagonist to get laid and they wanted King Arthur to be one of the most significant characters in the story, and consequently King Arthur was reimagined as a little girl.

The result is the thing in the OP.

>>49770426
actually in the original version of fate/stay king arthur was a dude and the main character was a girl

Which makes OG MC literally being Arthur's sheath funny as heck

But it was changed for the actual publication cause you can't sell a girl MC to otakus in a VN

In Gen Urobutchi's opinion it should have been made man on man

>>49770338
This faggot from /vg/. He used to be an annoying Lancelot fanboy, now he's an annoying Tristan fanboy.

>>49770439
love between men is the purest love, after all

>>49770455
Its true you can only know true love in the thick muscly embrace of another man

Waver X Rider OTP

There's actually an april fools type moon did about a game where you play as rider and girl Waver is your love interest

no really. http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Sensha_Otoko

Lancer is waver's older brother, proving that he is the biggest bro in the entire universe

>>49769532
He was chosen to play the Mandark to Tesla's Dexter. Him being more of a businessman than an inventor is also played as a running joke since he mass-produces cheap copies of Babbage robots to get himself an army and MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN.

>>49769979
>>49769999
>>49770279
Also because of the running theory that Arthur was a descendant of the Romans.

>>49769387
Well, it is a result of her denying her role as a mythical idealistic king and embracing her draconic heritage in a pursuit for the kind of rule she could be proud of as an individual. Ironically enough, Lancer Alter was the most successful and happy Saber of the lot.

>>49770775
What was her rule like, then?

>>49770184
>dindu
Hey now, just because she was a genocidal witch that killed her children to get back at her cheating cunt of a husband doesn't mean she can't want for a bit of personal happiness.

>>49770775
Nasuverse/Urobuchi opinion on kings is silly. Alexander is super great and beloved since the Macedons can vicariously feel good about his conquests even if he was a shitty ruler, but the noble and just Arturia gets hated by people who thought she was too perfect and so she's awful?

>>49770864
Well in her defense he cucked the shit out of her.

>>49766594
>Devil Saber
>Galactica Saber
>Gray
>Goddess of Rhongomyniad
>Ultra Heroine Z
pls post pics of these rare sabers

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I am bound to the crown.

I shall never know rest nor sleep nor pleasure again.

I shall serve all who reign from the throne. As I did in life. So shall I do in eternal undeath.

Never again shall I break my vow. Never again shall I be marked traitor.

I am bound to the crown.

>>49770864
Nasuverse version changes a few things with that. First, the children she killed were the children of Glauce and Jason. Medea was not their mother. And strictly speaking Jason did not cheat on her, because apparently he and Medea were never married in the first place.

>>49770881
IIRC the real problem with Arturia was that she was a mythical king in an era where she didn't belong. Her kind of charisma and nobility was fine in the Age of Gods, but since she ended it by killing the last of the dragons with Rhongomyniad, she ended up as a king with the power to unintentionally inspire fanatical devotion in people who could not resist or make choices without being warped by her charisma.
It's not that she was hated by her people, but since she displayed little to no humanity, people idolized her as something other than human as well and that's what eventually led to everything blowing up in her face.

>>49770881

Zero was just a long succession of "let's piss on Arturia". Honestly, between Kiritsugu being a cunt and Saber being little more than the chew toy of the thing, they should just have made Waver and Iskander the fucking protagonists and be done with it.

>>49771037
Was Arturia canon in lesbians with Guinevere? Or did Lancelot pull some other shit to cause the divide?

>>49771063
>Was Arturia canon in lesbians with Guinevere?
Basically very good friends tier.

>>49771050
Waver and Rider basically were the protagonists, anon.

>>49771079

That's my point, might as well make it official instead of advertising Kiritsugu as the main character.

>>49770881
Urobuchi is a retard, more at eleven.

Nasu never shat on Arthuria's kingship, she's the one who kept shitting on herself all the time.

Alexander was the ancient equivalent of a dudebro who only cares about his popularity instead of how to get shit done. Why do you think normalfags like him so much?

>>49771076
They were friends and Arturia herself didn't particularly mind Lancelot fucking Guinevere. I think she even gave them her blessings at some point, which really fucked with Lancelot's sense of guilt.

>>49771063
>>49771076
They married for appearances, Arturia was happy for her when she started getting Knight of Honor'ed but Lancelot had to be a retard all about it.

It's amazing how many issues would have been solved if Arturia had gone "btw I'm a girl don't hit on me you silly knights of the round"

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>>49771063
Arturia was given a magical dick by Merlin for the purposes of boning Guinevere and giving her a heir

However, Morrgan le Fay, Arturia's sister, got in there, did a little brainfuckery, had sex with Futa Arturia and used that magical fake penis semen to make Mordred.

Who is a Haemonculus clone, but haemo implies blood so she's more a Jizzmonculus.

>>49771095
Iskander did care about how to get shit done, just only as long as it pertained to conquering shit.

>>49771090
Could have had the loli-assassin plot thread too, actually give Zero Assassin a reason to exist.

>>49771120
>Arturia was given a magical dick by Merlin for the purposes of boning Guinevere and giving her a heir
>However, Morrgan le Fay, Arturia's sister, got in there, did a little brainfuckery, had sex with Futa Arturia and used that magical fake penis semen to make Mordred.

100% fan meme, Mordred is and always was a clone, arturia never had a magical dick

>>49771095
Because we all wish we had a big brother as cool as Alexander.

>>49771139
No, thats the actual story of how Morgan le Fay got the material to make Mordred

Because Merlin gave Arturia a dick for awhile.

>>49771140
>not little brother as fuckable as alexander

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>>49762252
> What would your paladins and other knightly types have to say about this person being their liege?
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from the mandate of the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony."

>>49771118
They wouldn't have followed a woman,as my impression

And the reason her subjects turned on her was she wasn't relatible, towards the end she was basically a robot powered by honor and autism

>>49762252

Honestly, Saber seems like a pretty good liege. Honorable, trustworthy, and valiant. Pretty sure it'd be a trade up for my current knight.

>>49770079

While this is true, the myths of washington probably means he'll have military tactics somewhere in his portfolio.

I think the most amusing part of Washington is that he fucking loved ice cream and would spend a lot of money to eat it. It just tickles me somehow.

>>49771157
Source? I've heard both

>>49771175
That Arturia was a woman was pretty much an open secret anyway. Which kind of king goes around in a dress? Or half naked with D cup titties at full galore as the Lancers do?

>>49771174
Was waiting for this reply tbqh

>>49771174
Oh, a Grail quote, how original of you. Put a quarter in the jar.

>>49771184
He'd probably have some kind of anti-army power yeah, something related to the minutemen

>>49771187
its in the fate side material

>>49771202
We're talking about anime shit taking things that aren't cute girls and turning them into cute girls.
The jar is full.

>>49771217
So the non canon material :^)

>>49771144
Doesn't sound like a knight to me. Remove this seditious peasant.

>>49771202
You seem a decent fellow.
I can quote the original TV series, if you want me to.

>>49771175
Iirc it's more that Arturia believed that they wouldn't follow a woman than that they actually wouldn't follow a woman.

>>49771244
everything is canon in the nasuverse given infinite multiple universes

:^)

>>49771120
What was Morganna leFays whole deal then? Why was she against Arturia?

>>49771118
Britons were especially brain damaged back in her time. She was running around everywhere in a lady's dress, and still everyone completely bought into the idea that she was a dude. Consider that only people from Arthurian Britain believed this. Literally no character from any other time or place in the setting has even been struck by the idea that she was meant to be perceived as a male. Everyone else knew she was a girl from the moment they saw her and didn't even think she was supposed to look like a boy.

Basically, Arthurian Britain is the dumbest time and place in human history.

>>49771249
Right, so her self esteem issues and autism were 100% the problem

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>>49771249
To be fair Artoria isn't very followable woman, mostly because she lacks the essential attributes required to be popular female leader in nasuverse.

>>49771257
She wanted to be king.

>>49771268
I think she looks more feminine as a summon because she's now a spiritual reflection of herself

>>49771268
Well, when legit dudes look like Bedivere, you pause for a bit. Arthurian Britain was the age of traps.

>>49771198
>Which kind of king goes around in a dress?
It's the early middle ages man. That wasn't particularly odd at the time. I'm also fairly certain Merlin placed a spell to hide her identity and only a few Knights of the Round Table knew about her gender.

>Or half naked with D cup titties at full galore as the Lancers do?
Lion King Lancer was just regular Arturia that got possessed by the goddess of Rhongomyniad and grew older as a result. I don't think Lancer Alter ever bothered hiding her gender anyway.

There's also the fact that the "full galore" part is just part of the gameplay and in-story they are both always fully clothed or armored in ways that hide their chests.

>>49771290
>mostly because she lacks the essential attributes required to be popular female leader
Reason and accountability?

>>49771236
>The jar is full
Already? Damn. Alright lads, grab the jar, it's time to hit the road
>>49771247
No time, we've got a jar of quarters to spend on a feast

>>49771291
Why didn't they co-rule?

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>>49771300
Traps aren't limited to Arthurian Britain anon

>>49771308
Go back to writing two-bit romances.

>>49771257
She was the proper recognized daughter of King Uther, and was the older sister, but Arturia instead receiving the love and ultimately the throne turned Morgan into a bitter witch queen who became the fairy of the lake, the evil counterpart of the lady of the lake vivian.

This is all due to Merlin's fuckery, who himself was a half-incubus, prophizied some shit to Uther., and somehow arranged for Arturia to be infused with the essence of a dragon,

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>>49771308
Tits&ass, silly.

>>49771313

Because "being reasonable" is not in the list of Morgan Le Fay's attributes.

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>>49771307

>>49771313
Arturia thought she was better suited to running the place and Morgan wanted the whole cake for herself.

>>49771300
Wait, Bedivere's a dude?

>>49771347

Yup.

>>49771339
it was more that that fuckboy Merlin got in Uther's ear and was like SUP HOMIE I'MA GIVE YOU A KID WITH DRAGON POWERS SINCE WAR IS COMING TO THE KINGDOM THAT KID WILL BE A WAY BETTER RULER THAN YOUR LEGITIMATE DAUGHTER TRUST ME HOMIE.

>>49771347
One of the few that kept his gender

>>49764091
Well if you've seen the alternative version you'd know they were fucked either way

>>49771307
>That wasn't particularly odd at the time.
Men dressing as women wasn't common at the time. Especially while engaged in military activities.

>>49762554
Except as someone who got into the series with Fate/StayNight, I firmly believe that Zero is better. Honestly it was everything I had hoped for at the idea of modern wizards in a fucking death battle.

>>49771159
>And a Gilmaid

>>49771202
It's very true in this case.

>>49769047
I haven't played realta nua, so I'm not exactly sure what that means. What did they do?

>>49771202
It is always either Holy Grail or Life of Brian. Why no one ever quotes the Meaning of Life?

>>49771410
There was more action, sure, but the story and themes were lacking in depth compared to F/SN. F/SN isn't deep or whatever by any means, but still better than that shitty council of kings and such stuff in Zero.

>>49771491
Made Sakura a pure waifu that knows no men.

>>49771491
Since it's all ages, she isn't raped by Shinji, just beaten, and the dickworms aren't dickworms.

>>49771493
Because Meaning of Life was about contemporary Britain, not swords & sandals Biblical stuff or Arthurian romance, and also because IIRC it's just a series of sketches
Nobody ever gets it when I quote the "wafer thin" bit so I don't usually bother but it's surprisingly versatile

>>49771355
Wait, wasn´t Morgan the daughter of Igraine and some other noble, who I forgot the name of. Merlin then helps Uther wage war on the nobles castle because he wanted to fuck Igraine himself. And later father´s Arthur with Igraine while shapeshifted as her husband?

From what I know, Arthur and Morgan are half sisters, could be different in the nasuverse though.

>>49771534
Its not very clear but Uther did wanna bone Ingraine and Morgan was his daughter somehow

The point is no one should trust Merlin. Ever.

>>49771355
I mean, dude was right.

>>49771547
He's a cool dude, helped get Shirou and Arturia back together.

>>49771294
But she's not. The Saber Arturia that appears in F/SN and Zero is the actual, physical Arturia, plucked from the moment right before her death.

>>49771120
To be precise, Mordred is the alchemically created clone of the legendary King Arthur, who, with a body that was physically that of dragon-blooded 16-year-old girl that had been mystically equipped with functional male genitalia by the world's most powerful half-man/half-penis demon wizard, copulated with her sorcerous half-fairy sister while deceived by a magical enchantment cast by said sister, the identical and rapidly maturing clone (who would grow up to suffer from gender dysphoria) being the product of the incestuous union between the half-fairy sorceress and the little crossdressing dragon girl known as King Arthur.

>>49771410

Eh, personally, I was unimpressed by Zero. The action was top notch. Everything else wasn't.

>>49771643
perfect.

>>49771493
Meaning of Life had the best song number out of them all, though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buqtdpuZxvk

>>49771571
Pfft, Rin managed to get Shirou and Arturia together and also make both of them her bitches at the same time.

Which just proves Rin > Merlin

>>49771801

Being worse than best girl doesn't mean Merlin is bad, though. That just means Rin is best.

>>49771839
>rin
>best girl

That isn't how you spell Illya.

>>49771645
Zero was a really curious case of "Confusion everywhere", which still makes me a bit confused. Where did the "A servant can only have one Noble Phantasm!" come from? What was up with Lancer's death scene? Why was Arturia suddenly into larping knights with Lancer? (Compare to Stay Night, and what she does to Archer on their first meeting, for example.) Why didn't Artoria remove her armor on the short lived final Saber vs Lancer duel? What was up with the retarded explanation for "Why does Grail-kun want to fuck my wish up?" (Something about "Your wish can only be granted in a way you know of", even though everyone knows the reason it would've gone like that is because the Grail was corrupted), and so on.

>>49771894
When they explain the concept of a "Noble Phantasm" to you in the games they describe them with something along the lines of "It's usually a signature weapon or something similar, and most heroic spirits just have one" despite how in practice a spirit with 2 or more isn't really all that uncommon.
The grail shit probably doesn't make a lot of sense if you haven't read a lot of shit between the lines or just read through hollow ataraxia with all the angra mainyu stuff, but basically it just uses evil genie rules with a bias towards killing shit tons of people due to the Ezberns fucking up

>>49771643
>the identical and rapidly maturing clone (who would grow up to suffer from gender dysphoria)
Basically, Mordred wants more than anything to be like Arthur and eventually surpass him. But she doesn't know that Arthur is secretly a girl, so she assumes that her own gender is the result of a flaw in the cloning process. As a result, "being a girl" is a major sore point for her.

>>49772075
>she doesn't know that Arthur is secretly a girl
She actually does know that, though.

>>49771889
That's a weird way of spelling Ayako you have there.

>>49771894
Grail-kun is kind of a dick, if you didn't notice

https://youtu.be/E9vhM6yvdrc

>>49762252
>Paladin of the Red Knight

Ladyknight patrons have been a thing for him for decades, so it's no biggie.

>>49771996
>>49772114
I've read Stay Night, and while I haven't yet read Hollow Ataraxia, I know of pretty much the whole Angra Mainyu debacle.
However, my quip with the scene in Zero is how instead of explaining anything resembling "Yeah, the Grail is corrupted, deal with it", Zero instead has some retarded "The reason your wish "No more conflicts" translates to "Kill all humans"? It is because that is the only way you know of achieving that wish, and your wish can only be granted in a way like that.", which doesn't make any sense at all, especially if you know what happens in Stay Night and Hollow Ataraxia (and kind of what happened in the 3rd HGW).
Lancer cursing everyone (and gaining Mystic Eyes of Dude Looks Like a Demon) doesn't help, as it probably makes a lot of new comers think "So the grail is bonkers because Lancer cursed Kiritsugu?".

>>49772142
I thought the eyes were just bloodshot, and the curses just mad ramblings. Zero Lancer didn't have any magic, I think?

>>49772142
>makes a lot of new comers think "So the grail is bonkers because Lancer cursed Kiritsugu?".
It's kind of their own fault for watching the prequel before the main series.

>>49763543
I would not be so certain that the world that exists in kalleid liner is actually reachable from the way things are at the start of Zero.

>>49772142
Well the grail is just a shit ton of mana packaged and ready to go when it comes down to it. You probably do have to state out some of the details, and ambiguous wishes like "world peace" would probably be asking for trouble

>>49772300
I think Diarmuid's myth had something about dealing with a witch, but I don't really remember it all that well. I don't think he had any magical ability

>>49772549
Nah he just had cool weapons and was cursed with being handsome as Fuck and utterly destroying panties because of it

>>49772142
>Zero instead has some retarded "The reason your wish "No more conflicts" translates to "Kill all humans"?
I dunno, I thought that made sense. he wanted a world without violent conflict, but he didn't actually know what that would look like or how a world like that could persist. It's basically just saying, "I want to save the world," and then hearing in response, "What do you mean by that?" And Kiritsugu didn't really have an answer for that followup question. So that means there would have to be some interpreting done to the wish for it to be executed and, since the Grail is corrupted, wishes will always be interpreted in the worst way.

That's what I figure, anyway. Admittedly I only read FSN sometime back in 2009 and I haven't read HA.

>>49772482
With SNverse Grail, any wish is asking for trouble, considering the Grail is corrupted. However, there are better ways of explaining this compared to "The wish can only be granted in a way you know of :)".
The really popular example people use is "If you ask to become the most intelligent person on Earth, the Grail will just kill everyone smarter than you." However, Zero's explanation kind of clashes with this, as people surely know of more ways to achieve this than "Kill everyone" (especially since this is a setting with magic in it.)

>>49772663
Magi don't care about the Grail's wish-granting side, they want to use it as a big mana battery to reach the Root. That's basically its main purpose. Normies need not apply.

>>49772142

It's lying, dumbass, it's a fucking evil cup.

>>49772590
What a tragedy

>>49772707
Not really. Walter wanted to be respected, Kariya wanted to getback Sakura.

I think only Tohsaka even mentions the root.

>>49772707
As we go on longer, less and less of the participants care about that one, though. If only those Einzberns weren't filthy cheaters...

>>49772728
I hadn't considered the possibility of it just lying to bully Kiritsugu, I have to admit. Though it is a fucking evil cup, does it need to lie?

Makes me wonder, will Einzberns ever learn not to cheat, considering it just always ends up bad for them?

>Let's summon the personification of evil itself, surely this won't go wrong!
>Is just a normal powerless guy, who ends up fucking the Grail up completely.
>Let's hire an outsider assassin specialized in killing mages to represent us in the war, that can't go wrong!
>Ends up destroying (or at least trying to destroy) the Grail.
>Let's go for Berserker, but minmax the shit out of him, this plan has no holes!
>Ends up being the Servant who always dies, despite his monstrous stats, no victory this time, either.

>>49762252
Fate/Stay Night is trash, just putting that out there.

>>49772795
not that guy but, waver was the pretige of geting it, not the wish
and kariya was a "i get the grail you free sakura" deal

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Does anyone want to talk about how cool and strong Gilgamesh is?

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>>49772893
Who is the cutest queen and why it is cake?

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>>49772915
He should stop throwing his treasures around like a madman, I say.

I wonder, in an 1v1 fight, would Gilgamesh lose to Lancelot? Or could Gil chuck his weapons speedy enough for Lancelot to not have enough time to counter?

>>49772984
If Gilgamesh doesn't use Ea, he'll lose.

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>>49772984
>Kekacock can't beat Agravain
>Kekacock killed himself and his master
WEW
E
W

Even the King of Jobbers jobs less.

>>49772663
>"The wish can only be granted in a way you know of :)".
Think of it as if Kerry asked Sehai-kun to solve a Rubik's puzzle.
>I want you to solve a thing.
>What thing?
>It's a Rubik's puzzle.
>You mean a Rubik's cube?
>Maybe.
>Can I see it?
>Not before you're done solving it.
>How many layers does it have?
>You tell me.
>How many sides does it have?
>No idea.
>What shape does it have?
>The geometrical kind, I think.
>Can you picture it in your mind?
>I can picture a puzzle.
>Is it the right puzzle?
>Not a clue.
>Do you know how to solve it?
>I was hoping you'd do it for me.
>Have you solved any puzzles like the one you want me to solve?
>I've tried, and I think I'm on to something.
>Can I do it the way you usually do it?
>No.
>Then how do you want me to do it?
>I don't know, that's why I'm asking you.
That's the best case scenario for his wish. Maybe the Grail would be willing to give it an earnest go if it wasn't filled with evil, but since Angry Manjew is a thing the Grail will just go for a solution that ends with everyone dead.

>>49772854
Everyone already knows that, but it's an easy way to kill time.

>>49772984
Pretty sure it was already explained in the LN that dealing with 32 shots was Lancelot's limit and if Gil started throwing more shit than that he'd rip the guy apart.

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Y'all need the better Arthur.

>>49773198
I really want Fate Prototype.

>>49773130
Kind of on a related note, I wonder what would happen if Gil threw one of those Vajra things at Lancelot (and I think those things explode, if I remember correctly), but he'd instead catch it, and throw it back, ending up with the Vajra exploding inside of Gate of Babylon. Would it rip the thing up, or would just nothing happen, complete with Gil laughing and Lancelot producing his "angry servant start-up noises" as usual?

>>49762252
Just a reminder that Type-moon has unofficially stated that all fanfiction is canon due to how the fate-verse works.

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>>49773350
why

>>49773350
Anon, please don´t encourage me to return to writing. I want my Saber/Iri Fourth Grail War stories to stay buried.

I wasn´t able to write past the first chapter anyway.

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>>49773252
Me too. Just thinking we could have gotten a cute girl like Ayaka instead of Swords and my man Percy instead of waifubaits if Type Moon weren't a bunch of sellouts makes me sad.

Another Fate thread makes it to bump limit, that's two for two.

>>49772142
Filthy secondary here, I watched F/Z after F/SN but I sort of got the impression that Diarmuid tainted the grail in some fashion.

>>49773789
He didn't. His whining did absolutely nothing to it. The grail was tainted back in the third war by Angra Mainyu, who represents all of the world's evils.

>>49771894
She has no reason to remove her armor, and it was proven to be a dumb idea in the first place. Removing her armor was why she got fucked up for a long time. As for her attitude about the honourable battles thing, she retains memories between summonings because she's not a normal summon. She's being pulled out of time rather than from the Throne of Heroes. She learned her lesson in Zero and acts differently in Stay Night.

>>49774086
This is correct. In the early parts of Fate, if Shirou doesn't buck up, Saber drops him fast in search of someone who won't screw her over. It's been some time, but I believe she even kills Shirou in some of the earliest bad ends.

>>49774086
Oh yeah, I understand that now, but before then I felt like that was the implication and could have been done better.

>>49774141
She kills Shirou in exactly one bad end, and it's more due to Kirei being allowed to talk. Also you literally have to go out of your way to get it by being a total dick to her the entire route.

Not counting Saber Alter, though even she doesn't kill Shirou that much.

>>49771499
I've actually read F/SN and I seriously don't see this greater depth you're talking about. Even discounting that Zero has a better cast overall and vastly better pacing.

>>49774284
I must be thinking of the one where Saber leaves you very early on so you get merked by Illya and Baasaakaa.

>>49774179
Since Zero is a prequel it was written on the assumption that the viewer already knows what happened to the grail. Lancer's whole speech is meant to be like one of those speeches from Shakespeare plays created for literary dramatic irony.

>>49774344
If you didn't get anything out of Shirou's journeys through the concept of the hero, I dunno what to tell you.

>>49774365
Oh yeah, the one where Shirou decides to just screw the war and go home. Iirc the Tiger Dojo after that is basically Taiga and Illia telling you to stop screwing around and play the game properly.

>>49772825
They cheat in the sense they built a rigged game, and have to continually tweak it to not blow up in their faces. I don't remember exactly how it works, but there was a bit in heaven's feel that basically says the only reason it's a "game" in the first place is that they have to trick a bunch of magus into getting themselves killed as part of the ritual.
>>49773784
It's probably more than that, but so long as they're infrequent and some fag doesn't try to make a general out of it like WoW or Elder Scrolls whatever I don't really see the harm

>>49774405
I have two major problems with the depth that is claimed to be in F/SN.

1) The character development is split into 3 incompatible routes. It is not one fluid journey of character development. If I create x character, who is a cocky hothead, and then I create 3 different stories where he develops in to a great and humble hero, a loudmouthed good friend, and a hardened anti-hero, I don't have "triple character development", I just have a bunch of what if scenarios with okay character development.

2) The depth of a character's motivation and the depth of a story is not just how complicated it is. F/SN is a very wordy story. And to be fair Zero is pretty wordy too, but the strength of a story's themes and its depth is I think also based on how a story supports its themes throughout the story and creates strong plot or character moments. When Alexander first reveals his noble phantasm, it's not a cool moment just because we see he's strong. It's because it is a grand ability that personifies everything that he is as a person, and was unleashed at the perfect time in the story. I'd argue Zero had more and better paced moments like this, big and small, than F/SN

>>49774651
It's less about character development (though, while Shirou "resets" every new route, our knowledge of who he is only grows) and more about concepts. If it was only a single, continuous journey that tried to explore every angle the three routes did, it would arguably be incredibly schizophrenic and wouldn't do justice to each concept individually because many of them would be superseded; three routes takes each version of Shirou to their fullest extent.

As for the moments in which theme and story intersect, what about Saber's parting at the end of Fate; Shirou's battle with Archer, a battle over concepts rather than a physical battle, and his activation of Unlimited Blade Works; and the Superhero, Sparks-Liner High, and Mind of Steel bad endings of Fate (alternative takes on the hero) or the final battle with Kotomine, again a battle of concepts?

>>49774651
1) This is normal for any alternative universe, branching stories in general. Same people under different situations can develop differently. Fate Shirou keeps much of his ideals in his development, UBW Shirou changes his ideals into a more realistic version & HF Shirou flat out abandons them. This is the same for Rin, Saber, etc.

2) The thing about FSN is that it is very much Shirou's story unlike Zero being either Kerry or Waver with some more in-between. The development is very much about Shirou & the ideals he carries. For example, the climax of the UBW thematically is actually when Shirou faces Archer, literally himself over his ideals. Their fight was just as much swords as it was words & the reason Archer surrendered at the end was because he believed Shirou won their debate.

>>49775103
>Archer surrendered at the end was because he believed Shirou won their debate.
This is why I hated it when Shirou pulled out some fancy flips in the anime, because it made it look like Shirou legit just beat Archer instead of Archer letting Shirou get in a desperate attack. The whole duel in the anime felt flawed, really; in the VN, reading every time Archer pounded Shirou's ideals felt like Archer was also pounding down on Shirou with a ferocious and heavily weighted attack, but I didn't get that in the anime.

>>49775237
Even in the VN he was accidentally power leveling Shirou. Even if it doesn't outright state it animated it still looked like archer could have just killed him by pushing himself just a bit, but chose not to

>>49774904
I disagree that our knowledge of Shirou grows, at least in any way that is strongly beneficial like conventional character development would be, again because of the conflict. UBW Shirou is different from HF Shirou, nothing they are or do is based on anything the other one said or did. Illya's character in the prisma spinoff doesn't add anything meaningful to the version of Illya we see in the main F/SN, and so on.

I think that most of the scenes you mentioned in your second paragraph are solid story moments and support your point, but this is all over the course of a seriously long vn that is cut into pieces. Furthermore, a lot of the smaller moments in F/SN are very weak because of detours into cooking, waifu stuff which isn't that conductive to the overall story or characters, heavy exposition and other various drawn out dialogue.

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>>49775303
>dislikes the waifu stuff

>>49762252
"OH THANK YOU SWEET GODS THE DEVIL WORSHIPERS ARE GONE!!!!!!!!!"