/wodg/+/cofd/ Chronicles of The World of Darkness of the General

You forgot link to last thread.
>>49709627
Some actual plays from one of our posters
http://pastebin.com/u/Aspel
Promethean 2e is out
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/189395/Promethean-the-Created-2nd-Edition

>Mage 2e Errata
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxveHUKxwBU9UUZ4UjZJdEhIM2c/view?usp=sharing

>>49729064
>No, you don't.
You do, though. You don't Awaken without going for it. You don't Awaken without working towards it. You even go through a trail to finally reach it. You can't tell who will or won't shake off their changes, but that doesn't mean it's some lottery. If that were the case, the Seers wouldn't be able to keep so many people from Awakening.

First campaign of forsaken 2E i will be running. I expect the player to start a vampire war after the first hour.

>>49729182
How would they manage that?

>>49729207

The rahu pc will find a way, he always finds a way

>>49729152

>You don't Awaken without going for it. You don't Awaken without working towards it. You even go through a trail to finally reach it.

Only after you become one of the lucky few who can actually start becoming aware of the presence of the Supernal. Then, you have to be one of the even luckier people who manage to find the Supernal. Then you have to be the absolute luckiest person, someone who came to the Supernal and back wielding its power.

There is certainly a journey, but it all ends up coming down to luck.

> If that were the case, the Seers wouldn't be able to keep so many people from Awakening.

The Seers are only able to do so because they enforce the will of their actual Supernal backers, the Exarchs, who are powerful enough to create The Lie. This Lie alters the odds, but it can't eliminate them. The Watchtowers continuously call towards Sleepers, and eventually, randomly, someone hears. It's a numbers game. That's all it ever is. All the Exarchs and the Seers have ever done is stack the deck in their favor.

>>49729608
>The Seers are only able to do so because they enforce the will of their actual Supernal backers, the Exarchs, who are powerful enough to create The Lie. This Lie alters the odds, but it can't eliminate them. The Watchtowers continuously call towards Sleepers, and eventually, randomly, someone hears. It's a numbers game. That's all it ever is. All the Exarchs and the Seers have ever done is stack the deck in their favor.

This is all still way less interesting than a war for control of consensual reality that involves dueling Wizards, shamans, hacker mages, Men in Black, Black Helicopters, Assassin Mages, Wire Fu monks, Cyborgs and motherfucking Terminators.

>>49729784
If you're into that, there are far better systems for handling the mechanics of that.
But personally? That's fucking stupid.

>>49729608
You don't even need to be aware of the Supernal. You just have to notice the inconsistencies. That's not luck, because the inconsistencies are all around.
I mean, that's the core theme of the game. You just have to question it. This is why the Guardians set up Labyrinths in the first place. So that they can find the people who question things and lead them to the answers. Or, if they feel it necessary, stop them from asking questions, one way or the other.
There's no silver spoon, though. There's no lottery. It's all on you, and a result of your choices and actions and motivation.

I'm curious how Ascension doesn't have the same kind of luck.

>>49729784
Except consensual reality is a stupid fucking idea, and what you're suggesting seems like an aimless mishmash of a whole load of concepts, with no cohension other than "we all think we're right".

>>49729991
It actually happens very similarly in Ascension.

>>49730074
I'm aware, that's why I said I'm not sure how it's any different. Ascension is basically like Exalted, with Avatars instead of Shards. Aren't there even a limited number?

>>49730018
It is the best idea... And not all that dissimilar from The Lie. Really, it's what Ascension shares with Awakening and that's awesome.

>>49729608
Frankly, being able to put all of those into one system and have it make sense thematically and mechanically is just a little bit of genius.

I want to marry a cute Salubri!

>>49730118
No. Everyone has an avatar. It's implied to be inseparable from the soul if not the soul itself.

>>49728967
Does anybody even play 2e?

>>49730319
Oui, had first session two nights ago.

>>49730152
Consensual reality and the Lie are incredibly different. The Lie doesn't care about consensus.
>>49730018
Look, can we not have that same shitpost argument in this thread? I mean, I agree with you, but it's going to go nowhere.

>>49730319
Plenty, why wouldn't they?

>>49730257
If everyone has an Avatar, and Avatars have reincarnated pasts to draw upon... how does that work when there are more people existing now?

>>49730515
There are far, far fewer people alive today than have ever died.

>>49730617
Yes, but the number of people who have *ever* died doesn't matter. What matters is the number of people who have ever lived at one time.

1000 years ago, there weren't even half a billion people. Now there are 7 Billion. If the number of Avatars stayed the same, you wouldn't have enough for everyone.

>>49730716
This raises the question if what makes an avatar in the first place?
We're they around before humans, or do humans make them, or what?

>>49730515
They can be reincarnated but that isn't necessary. More powerful avatars tend to have been around a while, as have primordial essence avatars.

>>49730783
They are the shattered remnants of the pure ones. Maybe angels, maybe Adam Jasmin style primordial man. No one really knows.

2016 and Sin-eaters are still blatantly overpowered. One of my players is mad as fuck because I won't let her role a Geist because I know she will end up dominating the other splats. When a fucking ghost human can shit on a combat mage or werewolf you know something is fucked up.

>>49730823
Ok, so around before man as he is now. So the first people to be attached to one wouldn't have "past lives", but by this point most if not all do.
There could be a unlimited number of them, and it is just that more are being used at the same time now than when there were less humans alive.

>>49730864
Pretty much.

>>49730842
Why do you feel that way?

So I'm co-STing a changeling the lost game.
Mainly it's the other guys game, but I help out with ideas and communicating this to the other players (my PC is established as having been in the court community longer and I have merits to reflect this so it makes sense so it works).

But a lot of it is me just pitching whatever ideas I think are cool and him running with what he likes.

Most recent one is Mr. Teeth. Who will be showing up at the Winter Market story.
The PCs quickly find out the following.

He's not from around here, and comes and goes as he pleases.
He's not a member of the season Courts. There is a persistent rumor that he is the prince of The Court of Teeth (there is no other consistent info to be had about the Court of Teeth).

Last year one of the items he had for trade was "the last Tuesday in February". No one could afford it.

His teeth are to big for his smile. His smile is to big for his face. It's hard to remember anything else about his appearance

Question for any STs listening, I've convinced my Dnd group to let me try running a game, I still have probably a few months to prep. they're all used to running pre-made chronicles out of books, I have to build one from scratch. So before starting play
>how many npcs to you write up?
>how many are fully stat'd out
>how many sites/districts do you write up
>how many plot hooks do you have ready(before the players build characters)
>do you make up roll tables?
>other tips/tricks/advice?

Is there any final word on whether having your head or heart destroyed final death's a vampire?

It isn't made clear in the story examples as to whether it's literally losing your head that kills you, or that the attack that causes you to lose your head simply does enough damage to kill you.


I want to decapitate my player with 5 resilience and have him just shrug and beat someone to death with the blind tilt.

>>49731088
Cutting off of a head instantly kills a vampire unless they have 4 or more points in resilience.

>>49729991

> It's all on you, and a result of your choices and actions and motivation.

If, and only if, you are capable of picking up on the call of the Supernal in the first place, which completely dependent on chance.

The Lie, in its attempt to seal off the world of magic, certainly creates plenty of inconsistencies. It's why the chance of Awakening is incalculable, as opposed to merely zero. But it's all still chance. Labyrinths are an attempt to stack the deck like the Seers do, to turn the number's game toward their favor in the hopes that they can keep it from just being random chance.

But in the end, when left to its own devices, who gets an Awakening is a roll of the cosmic dice. Everyone in the world has a supernatural encounter, most of which they've laughed off or forgotten. All you did was stumble on one that led to the Supernal. Even with all your magic power,. your potential and your ability to see forever, you're not that special compared to the incredible and terrifying world you live in.

And that's the difference. Mages in Ascension are special, they're the next step in humanity and the vanguards of whatever mankind's future may be. Mages in Awakening are obsessed know-it-alls who can't stop themselves from touching the hot stove.

And that brings us back to what started this all in the first thread: Mage the Awakening is not just a love letter to Theosophy with no conflict, it just has a different kind of conflict that sprouts from what a Mage is in that setting. The fight for magical freedom, for many of the Awakened, takes a back seat to the fight for access to mysteries and seeking power to tackle those mysteries.

>>49731084
>>how many npcs to you write up?
not many
have some random mook stats
have a bad guy write up
most city npcs just need names/little info, not full sheets
>>how many are fully stat'd out
as above
>>how many sites/districts do you write up
the players and their neighbors (or more if their job requires them to travel)
>>how many plot hooks do you have ready(before the players build characters)
4
>>do you make up roll tables?
no
>>other tips/tricks/advice?
you can steal characters from books, change personal information, if you need stats
make sure you know what characters can/can't handle, damage wise, don't want to kill them on accident

File: Wolves of Gotham.pdf (1B, 486x500px)

1B, 486x500px

>>49731088
I would assume that not having a head kills you.

>>49731118
Is that a thing? Where is that said?

>>49731084
Don't take months to plan. It leads to ruin.
>how many npcs to you write up?
None. I don't bother making any stats unless it's something important.
>how many are fully stat'd out
Again, none. I use simplified sheets. The 2e corebook even talks about this, suggesting it for a lot of monsters. Which can also be used for antagonists in general
>how many sites/districts do you write up
None. I usually ST off the cuff. I come up with story beats and characters, but I don't really put much thought into the locations themselves. File related is the most I've done in that regard. I should probably do it more often, though. I just find writing up location details pretty uninteresting.
>how many plot hooks do you have ready(before the players build characters)
I try to have a general focus ("this is a murder mystery" "you're trying to grow your territory" "you're trapped in a haunted house"). That's generally always a good idea.
>do you make up roll tables?
God, no.
>other tips/tricks/advice?
Don't plan. It's like the man said about boxing. Everyone has a plan until they're punched in the face.
No plan survives the players.

Just go with your gut. And talk to your players a lot. Ask them what they want out of the game, and what they're enjoying. Get them involved. Ask who their characters know, and what social connections they have. Ask them what elements of the setting they want to explore. Ask them what NPCs they're liking or disliking. Ask questions. I'll never understand so many of the That GM/Player threads because they always seem like there's no discussion about the game outside of the game.

Is the Heart Shot tilt just an instant-kill against anything that isn't a vampire or promethean?

Like, it doesn't even list an effect, just that it pierces the heart, which I figure means they're fucking dead.

>>49731236
>If, and only if, you are capable of picking up on the call of the Supernal in the first place, which completely dependent on chance.
Nothing holds you back, though. The limitations that keep you from picking up the call are completely psychological and spiritual. Labyrinths don't exist simply to cause people to Awaken, they exist to find out who is on that path. They're there to create threads for people to follow to find the center of the maze of their own free will. They're golden strings to catch the attention of those seeking truth and lead them somewhere safer and more amenable to the Pentacle.

It's not chance. It's not a roll of the dice. Touching the hot stove is what makes you Awaken. Seeking answers is what makes you awaken. It's a matter of will, not luck. Mages are just as much superior human beings in Awakening as they are in Ascension. That's literally the point. They're human beings who saw through the Lie when everyone else turned their eyes from the Truth. Awakening is ultimately a choice. It's not winning the lottery, it's going after the prize.

The Awakened who belong to the Pentacle are very much fighting for humanity's freedom. Yes, they all want to personally access Mysteries and seek power, but many Mages in Ascension do exactly that as well, and give not a single fuck about the Ascension War or who's Paradigm should be dominant. But every one of the Orders is built around reacting to the Abyss, and the way that Magic should be used to further and better Humanity.

>>49730842

Take heart, Geist 2e should be here in...2017, hopefully. The developer seems very aware of the power problem.

>>49731015

So is he a Fae?

>>49731084

>how many npcs to you write up?

Pre-campaign, I stick to about 2-4. Very simple stuff: name, their hook, supernatural type (if any), faction. This is usually just for the first session, and any other NPCs I make on the fly.

>how many are fully stat'd out

1 or 2, and usually only if I expect there to be some kind of fight or complex mechanical conflict. Eventually I fully stat all my NPCs, but that's more to pass time than to plan.

>how many sites/districts do you write up

Pre-campaign? None. Those I tend to improvise, or use basic internet write-ups in the case of real locations. During the campaign, I might end up with about four or five areas of various depth, depending on the player's home turf and where they like to go.

>how many plot hooks do you have ready(before the players build characters)

One. I like to base my hooks off of what characters get built. so I usually come up with a "how you all meet" hook and then we go from there.

>do you make up roll tables?

No, I find that a campaign's story flows pretty well on its own.

>other tips/tricks/advice?

Most NPCs don't need a full stat system in this game. Sometimes you can even get away with just using dice pools: every three d10s will net you at least 1 success most of the time, so build it in multiples of that: something an NPC is OK at is 3, something they're good at is 6, and something they're great at is 9.

A good way to approach these games is by treating them like a serial drama: if you feel capable, don't be afraid of splitting the party. Try to watch a supernatural show on TV (there's a boatload of them so take your pick), see how they split off and pair their characters together.

Try to watch, read, or listen to at least one thing in your chosen splat's corebook. It really does help you get into the mindset.

>>49731421
>The Awakened who belong to the Pentacle are very much fighting for humanity's freedom. Yes, they all want to personally access Mysteries and seek power, but many Mages in Ascension do exactly that as well, and give not a single fuck about the Ascension War or who's Paradigm should be dominant.

Could one run a mage in awakening like that. Just a dude, that doesnt care about the exarchs or the sleepers and just chills with no ambition at all? Follows the party because....eh nothing better to do and interesting shit happens to them so why not?

Can athletics actions be extended?

i.e. if a PC wanted to lift a truck off someone who is pinned, could they make an extended action to get the required successes to lift something normally out of their strength range?

Or would it make sense to make them holding a truck up for more than one-round an extended action, or just a series of normal actions until they fail or let it down?

>>49731432
>Take heart, Geist 2e should be here in...2017, hopefully. The developer seems very aware of the power problem.
I don't think Travis has said that Sin-eaters will be toned down.

>>49730842
Why do you say they're going to dominate? I mean, Sin-eaters can do a shitload, but most of the problems with being "overpowered" come from stacking Defense and the way that it's trivial to get +6 Defense. I mean, I pulled a random example out of a hat the other day to explain to someone how "you can get like 10 Defense as a Sin-eater without trying". I then conceded that maybe 10 was a bit much.
Except then I did the math and rolled the dice and ended up with all opponents taking -6 to their attacks, with an additional +3 Defense on top of that.
That was solely with Pyre-Flame Caul 3.

Anything else they can do is primarily goodstuff, but less direct. Sort of like how Dominate is the best combat power, not Protean.

>>49731571
You could, but it's out of theme, and people with "no ambition at all" don't tend to be the type to Awaken in the first place. If your ambition is just dicking around and poking your nose into shit, though, yeah.

>>49731576
Seems reasonable, I guess. Although isn't lifting things Strength+Stamina?

What's the craziest thing you ever pulled off in Mage? I want inspiration for the game I'm joining on Saturday.

>>49731640
What kind of characters do you like playing?

I once turned the rubble from bombed out building into horrid gross little biting and stinging insects.

>>49731421

>Nothing holds you back, though. The limitations that keep you from picking up the call are completely psychological and spiritual.

And whether or not you can hear the call in the first place is pure chance. Nothing holds you back when it happens, but it has to actually happen first.

>Labyrinths don't exist simply to cause people to Awaken, they exist to find out who is on that path. They're there to create threads for people to follow to find the center of the maze of their own free will. They're golden strings to catch the attention of those seeking truth and lead them somewhere safer and more amenable to the Pentacle.

Exactly, it's stacking the odds in their favor. Guardians want to control the numbers game for a greater good, as opposed to the Exarchs and Seers, who control the numbers game to try to get it as close to zero probability as possible, save for their own population.

> It's a matter of will, not luck. Mages are just as much superior human beings in Awakening as they are in Ascension. That's literally the point.

Will plays a part in surviving the process, but the process itself occurs by chance. You have to be in the right place at the right time, whatever that may be, to hear the call of the Supernal. You can choose whether to pursue it or not, but you cannot choose whether or not it happens to you. No one can. It just happens.

And no, they're not superior beings like they are in Ascension. They're not the vanguards of humanity. They're the freaks, the weirdos, the monsters who are privileged enough to see the world beyond our own and call it down to defy The Lie.

Awakening is not a prize to be won. It is just an ordinary state of the CofD's environment, as "mundane" as things like Embracing, The First Change, and Devouring can be.

The Pentacles certainly fight for humanity, but it's not as big a deal as it is for the Traditions. The Ascension War in Ascension is hot, and The Ascension War in Awakening is very cold.

>>49731636
>If your ambition is just dicking around and poking your nose into shit, though, yeah.

Underarchiever mage!

>>49731640
>What's the craziest thing you ever pulled off in Mage? I want inspiration for the game I'm joining on Saturday.

I played a game in 1st edition in which i had a imbued scarf that with spell that allow it to cut, stretch and was hard a steel.

My character would enter a room, cast zone of extremes which made all failures dramatic and all successes, extraordinary. Then cast massive evil eye on everyone. It was a very funny way to dispose badguys. And finish it off sweeping the magical scarf and killing everyone in an area.

A player is trying to convince me to let his character wear bunker gear on his vampire, and I'm kind of wondering how that would affect the way that fire damages him.

So my understanding is that vampires are weak SPECIFICALLY to fire, not the chemical process of burning. Steam burns and burns from touching hot surfaces don't cause aggravated?

Bunker gear itself is ridiculously fire resistant, and the way that Firemen are burned through it isn't from the fire licking them but from the moisture in the air pockets turning to steam and scalding them.


Would downgrading fire damage from aggravated to lethal be okay, do you think?
I'm a little wary about weakening such a thematically important weakness.

>>49731571

You certainly could. Anyone can Awaken. Your character would probably just end up an Apostate, which might not be the best thing to be if the rest of the party wants to go for a more Pentacle focused game.

A character like that in Mage would probably end up like The Dude from The Big Lebowski, but a wizard.

I'm still trying to figure out a character concept for a 2e online chat crossover heavy game.

I know that sounds like a fucking trainwreck, but I want to give it a try.

My original idea was to make a vampire inspired by Char Anzable and Dr. Doom. He'd have the force of personality to call for revolution eventually, but the main gimmick is he hides behind a complicated network of false identities and loyal retainers posing as his false identities.

The other idea is make a mage that uses Prime to reflexively summon cool armor for protection.

Wow, that all sounds kinda dumb but I still want it...

>>49731432
>>49731330
>>49731319
thanks

>>49731708
>And whether or not you can hear the call in the first place is pure chance. Nothing holds you back when it happens, but it has to actually happen first.
But it really isn't. It would be exceptionally difficult to not have the opportunity. There are more people who have the opportunity to become Mages and don't than there are people who never have the opportunity.

Also, no, what I'm saying is that Labyrinths aren't about causing Awakenings (not to say that wouldn't be nice), it's about attracting people who are about to Awaken. It's like a restaurant sign. It doesn't necessarily make you hungry, but if you are hungry it draws you in.

The right place to Awaken is anywhere within The Lie. When you're chained up in the Cave looking at shadows on the wall, you Awaken when you turn around and question what makes the shadows instead of assuming the shadows are all that there is. I really don't understand how you can say that they're so different from Ascension's Mages. How is Ascension not just as much about luck? How are they the Vanguards of Humanity while Awakening's are, to you, just freaks and weirdos who got lucky? I mean, Awakening itself describes them as I do: People who through obsession and determination sought out the Truth instead of buying into the Lie. That's not luck. That's something internal, to do with the Mage. It's part of the Awakened Soul, and why the Awakened's souls are stronger than those of Sleepers.

Hell, doesn't Revised not have an Ascension War at all?

>>49731731
>Underarchiever mage!
I mean, he'll still have Obsessions.
People who don't go for their Obsessions don't tend to Awaken (because as I said above, it's not a lottery, it's a test).

>>49731776
Anyone can, but people who don't go for the gold tend not to. I mean, Dave has even said as much. You don't Awaken sitting on the couch not questioning anything.

>>49731745
How often is he even going to be able to wear a Fireman's suit before getting flamethrowered? It's not like he's going to be able to walk around with it all the time. I say just let him ignore Extreme Environments due to heat or the Inferno Tilt and give it 2/0 armour. If he walks around in it all the time, that should cause complications.

>>49731745

I think downgrading it to Lethal would be fine but it would certainly still trigger Frenzy, one because it's still the sight of fire, and two, steam still really fucking hurts. Your player is aware, though, that going around in Bunker Gear in public is going to probably draw all kinds of suspicion when there's no fire truck or fire around? Especially if the rest of his coterie's dressed in normal people clothes. It's not an extreme masquerade breach or anything, but I can't imagine the Domain would look favorably upon it.

If they're OK with all that, let them. If not, forbid it.

Oh also, new Monday Meeting Notes: http://theonyxpath.com/deja-vu-all-over-again-monday-meeting-notes/

>>49731839
>>49731864
They make turnout gear without reflective tape and insignia you know, it basically just looks like a thick winter coat.

Unless it's literally stolen from a Firehouse I doubt it would draw any attention.

>>49731825
>People who don't go for their Obsessions don't tend to Awaken (because as I said above, it's not a lottery, it's a test).

Technically speaking you could have had that ONE moment of inspiration and afterwards just distract yourself with shit like tg posting as your obsesion. Or just reading book to see how they end. Or how to "fix" warhammer.

>>49731776
>which might not be the best thing to be if the rest of the party wants to go for a more Pentacle focused game.

i am all about following plot and helping the party, just dont like the whole obsessive thing. Prefer that thing in ascension in which you could raise arete without going into seekings.

>>49731776
>A character like that in Mage would probably end up like The Dude from The Big Lebowski, but a wizard.

Fucking sold!

>>49731864
Steam hurts if you're a fleshy living being. I see no reason why it wouldn't protect a Vampire from fire. I mean, it protects firemen from fire. They don't get burned from it. I mean, it's not comfortable, but they're not going to lose their skin or anything, not if their gear is on right. that's sort of the point of it. Why would it only downgrade from Aggravated to Lethal?

>>49731919
If you're not wearing the heavy gloves and helmet and mask, what's the point of it? I mean, fire isn't like a bullet. Getting shot with a flamethrower in the chest isn't like getting shot with a bullet in the chest.

>>49731924
Technically, sure, but it's the whole personality.

>>49731640
To protect myself from being viciously mauled, I turned a Redwood into its exact mass in Killer Hornets, then made them angry, then made myself "invisible".

As a result, I earned myself a permanent spot on the top of that Pack's shit list.

>>49731924
>Technically speaking you could have had that ONE moment of inspiration and afterwards just distract yourself with shit like tg posting as your obsesion
Word from on high is that just a single moment of inspiration isn't enough.
You have to actively seek it. To WANT to know the hidden truths.
And then when you've been given the first addictive piece of knowledge, knowing you can never close your eyes again, and that your peripheral Mage Sight will ALWAYS alert you to Supernatural events.
You're hooked.

>>49731706
Well if its any indication I'll be running a Moros focusing heavily on Matter. In particular, my character is a mechanic with a fondness for motorcycles and nerd culture that lives in the boonies along the Washington side of the Columbia River.

In general I like running either 'Average Joe' funny guy types, or over-the-top combat junkies.

>>49732069
Are you the same person who keeps asking about Matter, or are Moros Alchemists just really popular lately?

Turn a glass or some other container of water into an Alkali metal, such as Sodium, Caesium, or Rubidium.

>>49731825

>it's about attracting people who are about to Awaken. It's like a restaurant sign. It doesn't necessarily make you hungry, but if you are hungry it draws you in.

Right, it's about gathering potential candidates, and hoping that you're playing the numbers game correctly to make sure that, should any one of those people get lucky enough to trigger a trip into the Supernal, they'll be the kind of people that the Guardians can approve of and the Pentacle can use. We don't disagree on this.

>People who through obsession and determination sought out the Truth instead of buying into the Lie. That's not luck. That's something internal, to do with the Mage.

And the call to the Truth only happened in the first place because they got lucky enough to hear it. Of course no one Awakens just by sitting on their couch and doing nothing. But who gets that initial trigger, that flicker in the shadow of the cave, that's not something that can be understood or controlled. That initial moment is serendipity, it's happenstance, it's chance. Of course people who are more likely to pursue that chance are therefore more likely to follow through and Awaken properly, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't a chance in the first place.

it's been a second

>>49732278
It's not luck. There is no luck involved. The people drawn in by a Labyrinth that finally Awaken aren't the ones *lucky* enough to trigger a trip to the Supernal, they're the ones who are determined. They're the ones who choose to see the inconsistencies and question the Lie. That's not luck. Luck has nothing to do with that.

I don't know where you're getting this "the call to truth only happened because they got lucky enough to hear it" stuff. It's not about being lucky enough to hear, it's about actually listening. The call is there to anyone who listens. The shadows flicker in the firelight for anyone who chooses not to ignore them. The Lie is like depression. It's not a real, physical thing that keeps you down. It just feels that way, if you're even capable of noticing it. Yes, it's hard to get out of bed and it's hard to Awaken, but neither of them are *impossible*. None of it is chance.

Man, where's Dave to explain this?

>How is Ascension not just as much about luck? How are they the Vanguards of Humanity while Awakening's are, to you, just freaks and weirdos who got lucky?

Ascension presents Tradition (and to a lesser extent, Technocratic) Mages as idealistic warriors boldly fighting for a glorious future, tragically divided by the petty details of what that future may be. They have an active tulpa/spirit guide living in their soul that powers their magic and guides them towards Ascension. Avatars that find a mage are a near guarantee that they will Awaken, which can be great for a Mage that can call on his past lives, but not so great for someone that's become a Widderslainte.

Awakening presents Mages as ordinary people like you or me who, by pretty much chance, became aware that something was off with the world, that there was something more. Some don't pursue it. Some do and become Banishers or worse. The lucky few get to come back as a Mage. These Mages are strange, cloistered, and obsessed with discovering the mysteries of the world around them, which risks separating them from the world at large and dinging their Wisdom. The Pentacle fight for Humanity's ability to awake, but it doesn't manifest in the slam bam wizard fights that Ascension loves to show off. It's a colder war, because the Pentacle always live in enemy territory. It is possible to escape the grasp of the Technocracy, even if it is slim. The Exarchs are all around us, and the Oracles are at best a benevolent myth.

It basically comes down to this: Ascension is an Urban Fantasy game (I hope this makes Dracula choke on his vampire teeth somehow) with Cosmic Horror elements. Awakening is a Cosmic Horror game with Urban Fantasy elements. They do different things with different tones when it comes to their protagonists. Thus, like I've been trying to say, Awakening has a conflict, but the conflict is subtly different than Ascension's.

>>49732147
Huh, that sounds neat. And yeah, one of those other posts is actually what inspired me, it just sounds like a neat idea. Other than the obvious, like, making swords and having walls grab people, anything else neat you can think of?

>>49732440

>The people drawn in by a Labyrinth that finally Awaken aren't the ones *lucky* enough to trigger a trip to the Supernal, they're the ones who are determined. They're the ones who choose to see the inconsistencies and question the Lie.

Right, when they're lucky enough to run into the right inconsistencies. There is absolutely a test of will involved, but it doesn't happen without the luck of the draw. Awakening is open to anyone who hears the call, but you have to be lucky enough to hear the call first. In a world where all kinds of non-magical related supernatural events happen, some people just don't have the luck, or luck into something completely different.

>>49732431

Hey, it's been forever! How've you been?

>>49732594

Things other than CofD have been drawing my attention, likely due to the drought of releases; Scion has me hooked for now, but I'll be all over this place once the DE Companion drops.

Also I've been wrestling with gender stuff and drowning in the furry community, which takes up a lot of time.

>>49731432
>Is he fae.
No. People worry but most are convinced he's not because he does not fae like things (he typically shows up by taxi, he's been seen sitting in a McDonald's eating a cheeseburger).
Then again the taxis comes from different cities, some 6 hours away. The McDonald's should have been closed.

He walks the line between human a fae in a way that is supposed to make changelings uncomfortable. Especially if they get towards high wyrd.

>>49732465

I think at about Matter 3, you can merge things together into other things. Attach a chainsaw to your car, why the fuck not?

Also don't sleep on the shadow-y parts of Death. Deepening shadows is a much more useful tool than you'd expect.

>>49732441
It is not chance.
But more than that, please tell me how it's less based on chance that someone will become a Mage in Ascension.
I also fail to see how Awakening is less Urban Fantasy.

>Thus, like I've been trying to say, Awakening has a conflict, but the conflict is subtly different than Ascension's.
I'm not arguing on that point, I'm arguing that you say it's based on chance or luck that you awaken. I mean, I disagree with your presentation that the Exarchs and so on is in the background and doesn't matter, but primarily I'm concerned with explaining that Awakening (that is, the process of Awakening) isn't a roll of the dice. It's there, for everyone. You just have to go take it. The opportunity presents itself to everyone.

>>49732465
I actually did pull a sword out of the ground FMA style once. Though that was a high level NPC meant to keep the nerd alive and be boyfriend material in a Fate/Stay inspired one on one.

>>49732636

Dark Eras proper is about to get released in physical form. Don't know if you kicked in for the physical release, but if you did make sure your address is up to date, there's going to be a 48 hour shipping warning this week for backers.

Shame the Scion generals died out, they're finally getting to the previews I was waiting for.

Also best of luck to you on that stuff, buddy. It seems real rough, but I'm sure you'll pull through and I'm rooting for you.

I haven't been following OPP, How's Changeling 2e shaping up? I heard Beast was... pretty bad, but I always liked Changeling.

>>49732813
> they're finally getting to the previews I was waiting for.

netjer when

fix your game, blizzard

>>49732833

Looks to be a straight improvement like every other 2e, though some folks are mad about changes like the Seasonal Courts no longer being default or by Seemings being shaped by how you escaped Arcadia. The latter rankled me initially, as my beloved Fairest is now a Darkling, but I've gotten used to it.

>>49732594
You act like the inconsistencies are rare. Simply questioning your existence hard enough is enough. You could be a quadruplegic stump and still Awaken through meditation. It's not likely, it'd be hard, and most people wouldn't think to even do something like that, but it can be done. That's what Awakening is. Something that most people won't think to do. It's not realizing that the rope that holds your leg is too weak to hold your giant elephant body. You don't have to wait around or hear the call. That's not a thing that happens, that's not how it works. The inconsistencies are everywhere and all you have to do is see the world around you and ask...
>Why?

>In a world where all kinds of non-magical related supernatural events happen, some people just don't have the luck, or luck into something completely different.
Wait. I think I see where the confusion lies.
You do know that you don't seek the Supernal directly, right? I mean, the Supernal is literally everywhere (that's how Mage Sight works). You don't spot a glittering Supernal breadcrumb and follow it into the Supernal Realms. You chase a Mystery. Those aren't Supernal. You could be obsessed with Vampires and Awaken. I mean, the Guardians have used BDSM communities as Labyrinths. The kind of people who write Tao and the Art of Motorcycle Repair are the kind of people who could be on the cusp of Awakening if they just look a little further, just keep following the string.

Awakening isn't about finding Capital-S, Capital-M Supernal Magic. It's about following a Mystery into the Supernal. Any mystery will do, because the Supernal is the world of symbols. It's the act of asking "WHY?" that leads to the Supernal, not following the Magic of the Supernal itself directly.

>>49732669
If you could get in his head you'd know he realizes he's acting a lot like fae on earth, and he likes it.
The main thing keeping him human is he likes earth and all our modern human bits. He doesn't want to be in Arcadia. He doesn't want to be a Lord of a domain.

He wants to be here. Feeding our fears and desires, chewing on our rage and sorrow. He'll watch and smile, and again next year

>>49732731
Hmmm... good idea. What about making a motorcycle that can teleport? Once it hits 88, you can appear at some other point within 100 miles.

>>49732802
Pulling a sword out of the ground? I could see if you were standing on stone or a metal grille or something, would that be a combined spell? Pulling it out, and converting it to steel or something at the same time.

>>49732885
>Hmmm... good idea. What about making a motorcycle that can teleport? Once it hits 88, you can appear at some other point within 100 miles.
Anywhere from Space 2 to Space 4 depending on how you're doing it, plus... Prime I think? Might need Fate for the conditional trigger.

>>49732885
>What about making a motorcycle that can teleport?
You'll need Prime 4 for the Imbue Item attainment, as well as Space 4 in order to imbue the Motorcycle with the Teleport spell.

>>49732947
No Conditional Trigger needed

>>49732885
>Pulling a sword out of the ground?
He pulled up the matter from the floor of a museum and converted it into a sword.

>>49732731
I used the Shadow stuff pretty often. I would make shadow tools and shadow weapons. I think I had a magical duel where I was doing Aikido with shadowy claws.
I also once made a staircase to walk up to the second floor landing of a big mansion, and I once made a shadowy puppy to mock someone who was afraid of dogs.

>>49732802

>I'm not arguing on that point

I know. I'm just getting across that that is my real argument. All of this we're doing right now is just minor, nitpick stuff.

>It's there, for everyone. You just have to go take it. The opportunity presents itself to everyone.

If you are lucky enough for the opportunity to arise in the first place, or to realize that it is actually presenting itself.

>>49732852

>Wait. I think I see where the confusion lies.

Oh no, I'm not confused, but thank you for your concern.

>You do know that you don't seek the Supernal directly, right? I mean, the Supernal is literally everywhere (that's how Mage Sight works).

Yep.

>You could be obsessed with Vampires and Awaken. I mean, the Guardians have used BDSM communities as Labyrinths. The kind of people who write Tao and the Art of Motorcycle Repair are the kind of people who could be on the cusp of Awakening if they just look a little further, just keep following the string.

Exactly, someone had the bad luck of running into Vampires and it led to their Awakening. Someone got lucky and found that pursuing their BDSM fantasy led to an Awakening. And again, you are right, the narrator of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintanence, with his world view of people who see the whole and people who see the details, could very well Awaken if he got lucky and realized that there was something more to it than that.

>Awakening isn't about finding Capital-S, Capital-M Supernal Magic. It's about following a Mystery into the Supernal. Any mystery will do, because the Supernal is the world of symbols. It's the act of asking "WHY?" that leads to the Supernal, not following the Magic of the Supernal itself directly.

And these Mysteries only present themselves by the luck of the draw. Again, correct. A potential mystery could very well lead someone down other paths that do not lead to the revealing of the Supernal.

Luck presents the question, and will is following through and asking why.

>>49733117

At this point you're talking about a definition of "luck" that is so broad that it could apply to absolutely anything that isn't absolutely universal.

Werewolves? Luck. Vampires? Luck. Mages of either edition? Luck.

WoD discussion is about 60% people arguing about Mage by volume.

>>49733117
>If you are lucky enough for the opportunity to arise in the first place, or to realize that it is actually presenting itself.
It will literally always present itself. In fact, one of the five questions that every Mortal character answers--"what have you forgotten"--is that opportunity. That means that every Mortal character has passed up an opportunity to become a Mage.

I think that >>49733150 is right, and you're really just quibbling over the definition of luck. Because, again, every human being--aside from maybe babies--is presented with the opportunity to Awaken multiple times throughout their life, but instead of pursuing it, they choose not to. In fact, it's not luck that would present you with the opportunity to awaken, it's being profoundly unlucky that would present you from ever having that chance. Mysteries are literally everywhere, and the average person ignores them. It is statistically impossible to NOT have the chance to pursue a Mystery.

The whole point of Mage is that most humans don't. They don't want to, for the same reason most of us don't want to do thirty minutes of exercise a day and eat right, or quit our jobs and go live off the land.

>>49733205
It was ameliorated a bit when Promethean came out.
It'll drop even more when Changeling comes out.

But really, Mage is the one which causes the most confusion.

>>49733150

>Werewolves? Luck

Yeah, pretty much.

>Vampires? Luck.

Not as much. There's the Revenant then uplift and the "Embrace to prevent death" thing, but most Embraces are choice.

>Mages of either edition? Luck.

Ascension? Not as much, Avatars end up being more determinant and it's easier to get someone to Awaken. Awakening, though, yes.

I'm not even sure why you brought this argument into this thread, since I think it's pretty clear we're in agreement on everything except the finer details.

>>49733205

CofD is relatively light on canon to fight over so the focus falls on mechanics, and Mage has a lot more happening in that regard, as 2hu so helpfully showed all of us.

>>49729991
>But personally? That's fucking stupid.
I kind of prefer the cosmopolitan flavour of the oWoD. The different elements make for a broader palette, as opposed to the singular focus of Awakening (escape the prison). But that's why they print both games, isn't it? For thee, and me.

As an aside (NOW WITH LESS SHITPOSTING), if Awakening is based on Gnostic belief systems, why doesn't the Mage's soul have to battle Archons (the angels of this earth, serving the flawed and imperfect God of this earth) on their way up and out? That was an almost universal belief amongst the Gnostic groups, if memory serves... also, it would make a nice conclusion to the chronicle, one last epic battle for freedom against the final gatekeepers of reality.

>I'm curious how Ascension doesn't have the same kind of luck

Well there was a small amount of information on people that were groomed by the different factions. Obviously that didn't always work - Sam Haight, for example, worked hard to Awaken as a Verbena and just couldn't grasp it - but it would increase the chances considerably. The Order of Hermes trained people as Sorcerers for that reason. The Technocrats had all manner of employees and research staff. Accepting that such miracles and wonders can exist is the first step towards Enlightenment.

Second, the emphasis (at least back in 2nd ed) seemed to be not on the chance of luck, but the demands of fate. People were either meant to Awaken, or not. There was even a Destiny background stat, as I recall. This is echoed with the Nephandi - while there were those who joined up or were corrupted, there were others who were reincarnated with an inverted Avatar and never even had a choice.

>>49732988
>No Conditional Trigger needed
Oh right, Imbued Items have "activate under X conditions" built-in, don't they?

>>49733117
>the narrator of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintanence, with his world view of people who see the whole and people who see the details, could very well Awaken if he got lucky and realized that there was something more to it than that.
If you're counting that one as "luck" you've gone into completely discounting human agency and the ability to fucking think.

Mage isn't Exalted, where you have to do something super heroic but ALSO have to win the cosmic lottery of happening to have one of 300 Solar Exaltations nearby when you do it in a world several times the size of Earth with a population in the what, tens of millions? Hundreds of millions?

EVERYBODY has the capacity to Awaken, and they don't need a nearby hovering MacGuffin to set it off.

>>49730018
consensus reality = "reality is what you make it"
Fallen World = "reality is what you make it"
:. same concept, different wording

we get that you don't like it. It's okay. you don't have to. But screaming that you don't like it won't make me hate it too.

>>49730235
which caste?

>>49733220

>you're really just quibbling over the definition of luck

Like I said, it's a very nitpicky discussion, it just so happens that I enjoy that kind of stuff. It's only barely related to my original argument in the last thread, I just like to follow through on these kinds of things. But, I'm going to go ahead and agree to disagree before we get into any further pedantry.

>>49730864
Maybe reality has cycles like the Euthanatos maintain, and all these souls come from the previous cycles of the Great Wheel. Maybe souls are sparks from somewhere in the High Umbra, descending like embers. Hell, maybe it's like Babylon 5 and souls are immortal even if civilizations and whole planets are not. You could tailor the explanation to each splat, each paradigm or even just to fit the story, we're really getting into ST fiat territory.

>>49731088
In extreme cases the Attackers can be stopped by removing the head OR destroying the brain. I'll repeat that: removing the head.... or destroying the brain.

>>49733301
>>49733484
> Embraces are choice.
And Awakening isn't? Don't you have to be lucky enough to be chosen by a Sire?

How is Ascension less about luck? You present it as literally having to be chosen.

That Awakening isn't about luck isn't a fine detail. It's one of the core principles of the setting. It's not luck that makes you Awaken, it's choice. You, personally, have to seek answers to the unanswered questions all around you. The reason I'm focusing on that is because your original argument doesn't matter when you're getting one of the themes of the game so fundamentally wrong. This is not the same argument anymore, it's a very different one.

>>49733369
>I kind of prefer the cosmopolitan flavour of the oWoD.
>familiar with and at ease in many different countries and cultures.
???

Archons=Exarchs. Battling the Exarchs themselves would be a suitable end to an Imperial Mysteries game.

>Accepting that such miracles and wonders can exist is the first step towards Enlightenment.
As it is in Awakening.

>>49733440
This.
And, really, even then, there are MacGuffins hovering all over the place to begin with.

>>49733443
That's... not what the Fallen World is.
The Fallen World IS reality. Unless you're Awakened, reality is not what you make it. And if you're Awakened, reality is only what you make it because your soul has become Supernal and you draw the laws of a higher reality down through yourself.

I don't see how you could ever get that confused for Consensual reality. Which isn't even "reality is what you make it" so much as "reality is what everyone agrees on".

>>49733650
>The Fallen World IS reality
In fact, even the term "Fallen" is a misnomer.
Archmasters call it the phenomenal world.

>>49731084
>how many npcs to you write up?
just the community they'll interact with as a splat; Princes, courts, packs, cabals etc.
>how many are fully stat'd out
I'm going to let you in on a little secret, I fudged the stats to make the story fun. If in doubt I lifted a template from a book, moved a point here or there. Having hard stats is not as important as having a good idea of what makes that character unique and memorable; quirks, habits, mannerisms, motives and desires.

>how many sites/districts do you write up
It's all about the City it's set in, baby. Pick one you know well and can describe with confidence.
>how many plot hooks do you have ready(before the players build characters)
One. You only need one, for the first story. After that, most players will be telling you what they want to pursue next. Failing that, just ask yourself what repercussions and fallout have occurred as a result of the inevitable carnage players cause.
>do you make up roll tables?
No, I just roll dice occasionally without saying anything to make the players shit themselves.
>other tips/tricks/advice?
Part of successful storytelling is acting. Think about posture, timing, use of lighting and soft music. You could even use incense if the story demands it.

The best advice I can give you is to let go of notions of having your own "player character" running with the rest of the party. Remember, you get to play *everyone* the players interact with. It's up to you to decide the depth and motivations of all the lowly extras; every parking attendant, every shopkeeper, every homeless person. The players get to be one person each. You get to be everyone else in the fucking multiverse. Don't make the mistake of getting greedy.

>>49733650

>The reason I'm focusing on that is because your original argument doesn't matter when you're getting one of the themes of the game so fundamentally wrong. This is not the same argument anymore, it's a very different one.

No, you came in and nitpicked the actual argument, even though we agree aside from slight differences on what luck means. It's a side track from the original argument.

I've already said I'm willing to agree to disagree on this, but if it'll make you feel better, I'll fully concede.

>>49733819
Misinterpreting one of the core themes of the game isn't a minor nitpick...
I don't want you to concede, I want you to understand.

You don't win an argument when your interlocutor gives up, you 'win' when they understand.

File: WoD - San Francisco by Night.pdf (1B, 486x500px)

1B, 486x500px

Without getting into magic and other non-technological items, what are effective weapons and protection?

>>49733948
Avoiding trouble.

>>49733848

I understand completely, we just disagree on some small aspects of the setting. I've said my piece, you've said yours, and I think this is all we're going to get out of it. This was fun, though!

>>49733650
>familiar with and at ease in many different countries and cultures
Substitute "cultures" for "splats". yeaaaah, now you got it.

>Archons=Exarchs
No. They can't be. Archons were the servants of the God of This Earth, immortal beings who were never human to begin with. They are in this world, and they guard the path to the source, where the gods - the benevolent ones - and knowledge dwell.

Exarchs are explicitly people, human beings, that crossed over to the Supernal World and became malevolent there, because Darkness. At risk of beating a dead horse, that is more a Theosophical idea than a Gnostic one. There's even "The Abyss" separating the two realms. If the Exarchs were really Archons, they never would have left...

>The Fallen World IS reality.

Explicitly referred to as "The Lie"? When the whole theme of the game is widening your perceptions and understanding the true nature of it? By any definition of the corebook, reality is false, the Supernal World is the truth. You're talking like a sleeper, son!

> Unless you're Awakened, reality is not what you make it.

Sorry, but no. People shape their reality every day, by choosing to consider things one way or the other. If a man's mind snaps and he walks with the ghosts of dead loved ones, he has reshaped reality, magic or not. Donald Trump boasts about grabbing women "by the pussy" and his FEMALE followers choose to ignore the offence by dismissing it as "merely words". This happens without Avatars, without occult power, without supernatural agency. That's oWoD, CofD, and your life.

> And if you're Awakened, reality is only what you make it because your soul has become Supernal and you draw the laws of a higher reality down through yourself.

How does the method by which it is accomplished change the end result?

>>49733948
one quarter inch of steel plate

>>49734134
I don't see how Ascension is "familiar with and at ease in many different splats" either.

And Awakening isn't a one for one translation of either Gnosticism or Theosophy.

>Explicitly referred to as "The Lie"?
The Fallen World isn't The Lie. The Lie is "the Fallen World is the only world, there is no magic, there is no Supernal, there is nothing greater than this". The Lie is "you cannot change the world". The Lie is "OBEY".

And while, yes, perception and spin can "shape reality" in a metaphorical way, and philosophically you could argue that there's no real difference, that's quite a bit different from the literal reality reshaping that happens when you're one of the Awakened.
Meanwhile in Ascension if enough people believe cars explode when you shoot the fuel tank, cars will explode when you shoot the fuel tank.

File: images.jpg (12KB, 225x225px) Image search: [Google]

12KB, 225x225px

>>49734153
/k/ here!

Make sure it's the right kind of steel plate or, better yet, ceramics.
https://youtu.be/QfDoQwIAaXg

>>49734134

>Exarchs are explicitly people, human beings, that crossed over to the Supernal World and became malevolent there, because Darkness. At risk of beating a dead horse, that is more a Theosophical idea than a Gnostic one. There's even "The Abyss" separating the two realms. If the Exarchs were really Archons, they never would have left...

Is that still canon as of 2e? I'm not entirely sure if it was even canon by 1e's end, or anytime outside the corebook.

>>49734229
It's the best theory, but no, it's not really canon.

>>49734249

Gotcha, I often forget what's actually canon and what's heavily accepted fanon way too often. Thank you!

Why the hell do we have two threads going? I'm going to crosspost this here since this seems to be the popular thread.

Would it be possible to have a Life spell that gives a character werewolf-esque regeneration? I assume you could do it with Life•••• some reach and mana. But there may be a creative thaumaturgy rule I'm not aware of.

>>49734315
>Why the hell do we have two threads going?
The other one is a troll thread with aspel's pastebin and a shitty intro.

>>49734193
>I don't see how Ascension is "familiar with and at ease in many different splats" either.

jesus wept, *I* am. Not the game. As in,
>"I am more familiar with, and at ease, with the many different elements, factions, cultures and peoples of the oWoD, than the streamlined and simplified (and mysteriously five-fold) CofD."

>Awakening isn't a one for one translation of either Gnosticism or Theosophy.
Contradicts the positions taken for the last two threads by numerous posters, but sure. Okay. Just don't call an Exarch an Archon, then. I still think the Archons would be useful thematically, and you could even keep the name. After all, if the Exarchs are going to be dicks and imprison souls, why not a warden?
>The Fallen World isn't The Lie.
It is if the true nature of reality lies beyond the Abyss, making itself known in the Fallen World though supernatural stuff, mate. Don't make me quote the goddamn Matrix on you. The Lie is clearly bigger than the concepts you've described.

>And while, yes, perception and spin can "shape reality" in a metaphorical way... that's quite a bit different from the literal reality reshaping that happens when you're one of the Awakened.

You're obviously not wrong, but I'm arguing about a theme that has real world relevance while you're arguing about gameplay content. Chalk and cheese, man. As for how consensus ties into this, the book Ascension had an end-world scenario where everyone in the world shapes their own reality, tying it back to that theme. Everyone made their own reality. Literally. Not figuratively. Very dramatically, I grant you. But still....

>>49731924
>Or how to "fix" warhammer.
Well I wasn't aware that you WANTED to play one of the Mad, but if that's what you want, go for it.

>>49734361
You said it has a more cosmopolitan flavour. You can't really get mad at people for misunderstanding what you meant when you used the term to describe your own familiarity. Though you do seem to imply that oWoD has more character options, which I'd disagree with unless we're talking solely the corebooks. I already know you think system is well researched and familiar with many cultures, though that's something I greatly disagree with, and the writers have said as much themselves.

And most of the CofD isn't actually fivefold. Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage are, but only in the corebooks. Mage, as far as I know, does only have more Paths as setting hacks, but Vampire has the sixth Clan as a core part of the backstory, as well as various examples of "not Kindred, but vampire" showing up. In 2e's core you even have the Jiangshi, while other Lost Clans are mentioned. Werewolf has auspices based on various lunar phenomena, though if you count the Pure and "no auspice" as an auspice, that's six as well. Promethean had five Lineages, but quickly got a sixth and seventh and eighth, and examples of weirder ones (with six in the corebook). Changeling started with six, and 2e is already starting with seven (one in Dark Eras). Hunter has, what, 20? Or none, depending on how you count. I'll admit I don't know Mummy. Geist of course does have five. Demon has four (though it did get a fifth. Is there a sixth?)
I hate that people use the simplification for gameplay as some kind of strike against the game. I much prefer a low number with variations than 13 different groups.

And, no, I never said it was a translation of Theosophy or Gnosticism. In fact, at least one poster said that NOT claiming to directly represent a real world philosophy is one of the reasons why Awakening handles things better. Which is a sentiment that I agree with.

>>49734361
The Fallen World is not The Lie. The Lie is that there IS NO SUPERNAL. The Fallen World is reality. It is what exists. It is not reality as it should be, or could be, or even was. But it is reality. It is physical and material and while there is magic of a stripe, it isn't the raw untempered Truth of the Supernal. But, again, the noumenal world itself is not the Lie. It's real. It's a prison, but it's real. Belief won't change it. It won't reshape it. It takes an Awakened will to do that, by imparting the Truth of a different reality into the world.

Ascension is about how "if we could just get everyone to believe the same thing it would change the world".
That's not what Awakening is about. Believing won't change the world. It's about "if only we could just get everyone to see HOW to change the world". That's why in Awakening, gas tanks don't explode when you shoot at them just because everyone believes that from seeing it in the movies. In Awakening, gas tanks explode when you shoot at them because the Storyteller system is still kind of action oriented

>>49735011
>>49735011
Not that guy so bear with me here.

>You said it has a more cosmopolitan flavour.
That part is indisputable. Awakening gives us hermeticism, hermeticism and more hermeticism. Ascension gives us that and much, much more with optional rules for technocratic variations on three of the spheres.

>In fact, at least one poster said that NOT claiming to directly represent a real world philosophy...
Ascension never claimed to represent real world philosophies. It took inspiration from them and they made that distinction numerous times at least since second edition. Additionally, this makes it feel more real because the things that it is based on actually exist. It FEELS more real. As a consequence, the problem that I have with Awakening's setting is the same that I have with many fantasy settings: It seems made up and the names sound like so much gobbledygook. By contrast, everyone knows what Shamans are and everyone has at least an inkling of European/Semitic/Greek high magic. It's rooted in a way that Awakening cannot hope to match.

>...Awakening handles things better. Which is a sentiment that I agree with.
Jesus fuck. It's okay to like things that are fictional interpretations of the real world.

>>49735101
>Jesus fuck. It's okay to like things that are fictional interpretations of the real world.
And it's also okay to dislike things that feel stereotypical.
I've never felt Ascension feels more real. I've felt like it was like walking through the action figure aisle at a toy store, or watching GI Joe.
You keep acting like Awakening doesn't do what Ascension does, but it does. Magical traditions aren't somehow gone, they're all over the place. Most Legacies are built on that kind of thing, and in that regard Awakening has far more going for it than the handful of Traditions that Ascension does.

And calling Awakening just Hermeticism is inaccurate at best. Awakening's set up allows for far more variations and unique applications.
I mean, fuck, are the actual systems even THAT different in the first place?

>>49735151
>And it's also okay to dislike things that feel stereotypical.

Fucking how? Despite a few notable early missteps, this was the most inclusive thing to come out of the RPG industry at the time of its release?

Why the fuck are there two threads up?

>>49735501
I started a thread and then someone started another thread claiming that my thread was a troll thread.

It was funny. You really should have been there.

>>49733948
WoD or Chronicles? Which edition?

>>49735344
>at the time of its release
You may notice that this time is no longer that time.

>>49735564
You put a fucking porn pastebin in the header, used an image that's not even tangentially WoD related, and left up the edition war question.

>>49735608
Let me guess, it was Rorys ERP pastebin?

File: World of Darkness- Dudes of Legend.pdf (1B, 486x500px)

1B, 486x500px

>>49735575
WoD or just in general, any edition.

>>49735626
Well, in Chronicles it depends a bit on what you're fighting. But the general rule is high damage low rate of fire weapons for single, powerful targets and automatic weapons for groups(hoards of weaker idiots.). As for armor, general armor usually trumps bulletproof unless you're dealing with someone who similarly has high damage firearms. So a suit of plate armor and a kalashnikov/SKS and you're ready to take on the world.

Some inspiration.
https://youtu.be/lIIA6QDgl2M

Man I forgot how fucked up Ito is.

>>49735151
>Magical traditions aren't somehow gone, they're all over the place.

Magical tradition are in 1 pretty underwhelmed book. In 1st edition it was pretty much "you drink the atlantis koolaid or you were an idiot".

"Hey i wanna play a mage that can only use electricity because i have this cool concept"

Ascension answer- "sure timmy, go ahead, thats your paradigm"

Awakening answer- "Sure, but you are a retard because you should use ALL the types of magic available to forces and not just electricity. And mage society is gonna treat you like an aspel"

That was 1st, now in 2nd. Maybe you have electricity rotes or praxies but if you wanna be smart and use electricity to find a way to acomplish the same thing that you could do with....say fire, you still an idiot. The magical traditions arent gone but you either join the free council or you get punnish with drawbacks after drawback by DaveB because you dont like his diamond orders.

Thank god there is those merit in 1st to ignore said drawbacks though.

>>49735929
>Magical tradition are in 1 pretty underwhelmed book. In 1st edition it was pretty much "you drink the atlantis koolaid or you were an idiot".
Neither of these statements are accurate.
You don't need a merit to have a magical tradition. Hell, Legacies are exactly that.
You also do not "drink the Atlantis Kool-Aid".

>Mage society is going to treat you like an aspel
Did you just use me as some weird nonsensical insult?

Also, I'm pretty sure in Ascension there was nothing mechanically that would support that type of character. Or, I should say, nothing mechanically that would restrict you in that way. Using only Electricity would be just as much of a personal choice. Mechanically no Tradition or Paradigm is limited to only a single type of magic as far as I'm aware.

>The magical traditions arent gone but you either join the free council or you get punnish with drawbacks after drawback by DaveB because you dont like his diamond orders.
What are you even going on about?
Your understanding of Awakening seems far less than my understanding of Ascension.

>>49735988
>Using only Electricity would be just as much of a personal choice.

no, he's saying that if someone chose to make a character that only used electricity, in awakening you're at a mechanical disadvantage for only using one aspect of one arcana. Paradigm isn't what your magic does though, but rather how your magic works, so I'm not sure what exactly his point was.

>>49736014
But that's the same in Ascension. "I choose to only use this one thing" is always going to be a disadvantage compared to... using everything available to you.

How would you tone down vampires (and Disciplines in particular) in VtR 2e without making them too weak?

>>49736041
You're correct.

>>49736051
In what way and for what purpose? What is your goal? Why do you feel they're too strong?

>>49735988
>You also do not "drink the Atlantis Kool-Aid".

Yeah i realize that as i posted. Let me rephrase, either you drank the pentacle koolaid or you were an idiot.

For example there was the rabbi in boston book who was an orthodox jew and pretty much though as an idiot.

>>49735988
>Also, I'm pretty sure in Ascension there was nothing mechanically that would support that type of character. Or, I should say, nothing mechanically that would restrict you in that way. Using only Electricity would be just as much of a personal choice

Paradigm son, use it. At chargen i (player) could decide my character magic only that way.

Or take specialty sphere.

>>49735988
>The magical traditions arent gone but you either join the free council or you get punnish with drawbacks after drawback by DaveB because you dont like his diamond orders.

2nd edition made the free council more democracy propaganda and more a watered down version of ascension traditions. Mages that look into human culture to find "magic", but also made playing a nameless harder because "they suppose to be".

>>49736014
>Paradigm isn't what your magic does though, but rather how your magic works, so I'm not sure what exactly his point was.

True, let me rephrase. If i wanted to play a mage in ascension who needed to say, sacrifice a toaster to the thunder to do magic. It would be my ineficient choice as player but setting wise it would just be how my magic works.

In awakening it would be an inneficient choice on both. Rituals, ceremony, and anything flavourflull in ascension was a nescesity. In awakening is just a bonus. Mages know magic doesnt come from that, and just use trappings to their convenience and in a way is kind of more

>>49735151
>walking through the action figure aisle at a toy store, or watching GI Joe.

>>49736059
To have non-supernaturals like the police or hunters be a relevant threat for PCs. Even starting characters scoff at them with stuff like Dominate 2, Celerity or Animalism 3.

>>49736082
>the free council more democracy propaganda and more a watered down version of ascension traditions.

Shit, *less democracy propaganda and more watered down version of.....

>>49736082
>Let me rephrase, either you drank the pentacle koolaid or you were an idiot.
Still wrong.
There are plenty of religious Awakened Mages. Though when you've had the truth revealed to you, it's hard to keep faith. especially considering the Exarch of Prime is at the center of most religious institutions. I'm not sure what you're trying to say, though. Are you implying that you can't be religious and a Mage? Or are you implying that you can only do magic one way? You do know that all of the six major Orders views magic differently, right? That they have inherently different and even competing beliefs and practices, even amongst their own factions?

>2nd edition made the free council less democracy propaganda and more a watered down version of ascension traditions.
It really isn't. I'm not sure how you can misunderstand things so drastically.

>In awakening it would be an inneficient choice on both. Rituals, ceremony, and anything flavourflull in ascension was a nescesity. In awakening is just a bonus. Mages know magic doesnt come from that, and just use trappings to their convenience and in a way is kind of more
You know what, I'm not exactly sure why you're arguing this is a point in Ascension's favor. The game allows you to be restrictive for no reason? The game doesn't mechanically support gimping yourself pointlessly, so it's worse? I'm also pretty sure that doing something like that in Awakening is also perfectly viable. Nevermind that at lower levels those bonuses are pretty damned important. I would much prefer a system where I'm not shackled with unnecessary constraints like Paradigm. Yes, it can provide interesting character drama, but I'd much rather it be an option instead of the default. Unless of course you go for "the Paradigm of whatever I wanted to do"

>>49736083
Dominate 2 isn't going to stop a group of people trying to kill you. They aren't really going to be looking you in the eye.
Also, keep in mind that Animalism 3 isn't instant.

>>49736171
>I would much prefer a system where I'm not shackled with unnecessary constraints like Paradigm

I preffer a system that allows me to shackle magic as to have to play it smart and find ways around situations instead of going with the best objectively spell choice so yes to me thats a point in favor to ascension.

>>49736171
>Unless of course you go for "the Paradigm of whatever I wanted to do"

Those were the shitiest kind of players for ascension, fortunately now they have awakening to enjoy. So everybody won.

>>49736171
Is prolonged eye contact still required for Dominate? Another problem I have is that vampires are too beefy. Reducing all lethal to bashing seems too much.

>>49736171
>Though when you've had the truth revealed to you, it's hard to keep faith
Perhaps in the tenants of any specific faith.
Major difference between religion and religious institutions (which is infested by both Pentalce and Seer power players).
It's the difference between being a fan of something, and being a part of the fandom.

>>49736319
not prolonged but you need it

>>49736319
>Another problem I have is that vampires are too beefy. Reducing all lethal to bashing seems too much.
they're corpses why would a bullet wound matter?

>>49736410
Although it was kinda goofy in execution, I liked the idea that was in 1e where melee weapons would still do lethal as they caused a wider amount of trauma, though obviously it's a bit goofy and not actually...quite how weapons like that work. but I'd probably rule that if you made a weapon capable of massive-physical devestation it might still do lethal to vamps. But really, at that point just get a fucking molotov.

>>49736503
>I liked the idea that was in 1e where melee weapons would still do lethal as they caused a wider amount of trauma
but in 1e they didn't allcause lethal
some were bashing/some lethal
2e made all weapons lethal

>>49736410
Well, I think shotguns and large caliber rifles would still do some damage. Maybe bladed weapons could do lethal as well.

>>49736786
they do
bashing
because a vampire doesn't need muscles or nerves or veins
so any damage a bullet or knife is going to do is superficial

>>49736887
Then how does their blood flows? They must need vessels at the very least for that. I'm trying to weaken them crunch wise. Fluff justifications can wait.

>>49736237
Your understanding of Awakening continues to be lackluster if you think you don't have to play it smart. The examples you gave aren't about finding ways around situations instead of going with the objectively best spell choice, either. Your example was all about intentionally choosing to limit yourself to one type of spell. That's just as possible in Awakening.

>>49736407
And there are still plenty of religious Mages regardless. There are even Legacies based on religions and religious practices.

>>49736964
It doesn't. And even in 1e, Vampires were never going to roll over and fear the average mortal cop or gangbanger. A vampire fears a mortal for the same reason you or I might fear someone who can beat us up. Not because we're afraid of *dying*, but because we don't want to be *hurt*. It's always taken at least a few strong someones to take down a vampire. If you want to make them feel threatened, you're not going to be able to do it by making them weaker, or bullets to hurt more, because even in 1e that shit was a pittance to them.

What mortals can do to a vampire is weaken them. Aside from collaborative effort from Hunters, a vampire isn't going to worry about mortals in the short term, but dealing with and healing from them is going to expend their vitae. And, if you want them to feel less like unstoppable blood gods, you need to enforce the notion that vitae is a scarce resource. You can't just grab and drain any random passerby. Valid victims are few and far between, and pulling someone away or seducing them is harder than it seems, and not something you can do at all hours of the night at a moment's notice.

>>49736237
How much depth does paradigm add? Like seriously, yes, a characters paradigm does show how that character thinks on a deeper level, but is NOT having paradigm so restrictive that a decent roleplayer can't create an equally interesting character? Is lack of paradigm really such a big flaw of awakening? You want to talk about how orders are worse than traditions? sure, there is an argument to be made. Seers vs Technocracy as antagonists. fine (technocracy would win, but still...) But fucking paradigm? A single thematic mechanic is what you get stuck on?

>>49737123
does vitae not flow through vampires like blood? I may be getting my WoD and CofD mixed up.

>ITT: Aspel and others LARP Usenet wars from 2005.

There is no winning a Mage setting war, though this is the first time I've seen Ascension fans successfuly dog pile an Awakening fan in years.

>>49735624

It was.

>>49737124
>How much depth does paradigm add? Like seriously, yes, a characters paradigm does show how that character thinks on a deeper level, but is NOT having paradigm so restrictive that a decent roleplayer can't create an equally interesting character? Is lack of paradigm really such a big flaw of awakening?

To me, yes it is. Is one of the biggest flaws of awakening. Magic just feel dull, flavorless with all mages sharing the same arcanum feel samey. Why choose an incovenient yantra that has to do with your pc concept when there another that gives the same bonus even though it doesnt have shit to do with your character beliefs?

Yes i know a descent roleplayer can go beyond what i think is a flaw but it doesnt mean that the flaw isnt there.

Magic should be about belief, limits and working around those limits.

>>49737124
>You want to talk about how orders are worse than traditions? sure, there is an argument to be made. Seers vs Technocracy as antagonists. fine (technocracy would win, but still...)

Thats another discussion entirely, so sure go ahead trads vs orders.

>>49737342

>Why choose an incovenient yantra that has to do with your pc concept when there another that gives the same bonus even though it doesnt have shit to do with your character beliefs?

Wouldn't this be solved by reskinning? I always felt that the Yantra list was like the Integrity trigger list: it's a starting point with many examples that one can extrapolate on for their personal games.

>>49737154
No.

>>49737309
"Successfully"

>>49737342
Contrarily, I find that Magic in Ascension is bland, flavourless, and tries too hard to be meaningful and different while still being over all completely the same. Awakening on the other hand has a coherent and distinct system that feels unique. No other game has a magic system that feels like Awakening, and especially 2e creates an incredibly resonant and interesting set of mechanics. You want to talk about how Mage doesn't encourage you to do things that are inconvenient, but the entire magic system is built around inconvenient things being much better for you than convenient ones. If an Yantra has to do with your concept, chances are it's going to give better bonuses. I'll admit that the Yantras could be more varied, since most of them are simple +1s and +2s, but to act like everything is the same period is just a complete lack of understanding of the system.
Meanwhile you can flavour your magic and yantras however you like, because that shit is basically just the same as Paradigm.

You're basically making a non-argument. You're arguing that in Ascension you can take a super limiting Paradigm and so that makes Magic feel different. But Magic itself in Awakening always feels different from any other game that exists, even it's predecessor. I don't need to sacrifice toasters to make it unique. And if you want magic that's restricted and focused on specific things, Unknown Armies already handles that better, with it's pornomancers and fast food wizards.

>sure go ahead trads vs orders.
I'm not that guy, but I already weighed in on that. The Traditions are cliche stereotypes of real world magical traditions, while the Orders are broad strokes stereotypes that encompass several magical styles and Legacies. People who say that CofD has "less options" aren't paying attention to the system, as it ultimately has more options, it just breaks them into tiers to be more manageable, both in terms of fluff and mechanics.

>>49736171
>They aren't really going to be looking you in the eye.
And where are they going to be looking you into? Your dick? People's eyes move really fast, it's easy to make eye contact by accident.

>>49737476
It's exactly like that. They barely even give Yantra examples. It's not like every character's Personal Yantra is going to be playing a traditional tune on your drum.

>>49737342
>Magic should be about belief, limits and working around those limits.
No it shouldn't. Or, if it should, then there's no discussion here, because your argument is "Magic should be exactly what is done in Ascension".
To me, Magic should be about will, and exercising that will. It should be about formulating an imago and then working to bring that imago into the world. Ascension as far as I can tell barely has mechanics for Magic. It gives rough guidelines and examples, and that's about it. Awakening on the other hand, especially in 2e, gives you the tools to craft your own spells. It gives you--the player--the tools you need to form the Imago the character uses, then bring that Imago into the game world through the various spell Factors and traits.

Tweaking spell factors, using Yantras, managing Reach, trying to get passed Withstanding, all of that makes Awakening's magic system incredibly unique, and incredibly fun. Ascension doesn't do that. Ascension has choosing which spell you want to use from the list and rolling it as you're told. It has coming up with something new and trying to play Mother, May I? with the ST.

Hell, I'm literally looking up the rules for Ascension right now. All magic IS the same. Paradigm seems to play very little part in it. There's a lot of talk, but very little in the way of ruling what you can or can't do. It's all personalized, and it's completely valid to gimp yourself in Awakening by saying your character can't wrap their head around certain concepts (that is, after all, what the Imago is: The mental picture you create of the spell effect. It is in essence a spell specific Paradigm). As an aside, how is it *harder* to do Coincidental Magic with a higher Sphere?

>>49737638
Generally if you're attacking someone you're going to be aiming for their center of mass. And you have to have a good three seconds or so of eye contact to initiate the command.

>>49737503

>"Successfully"

There's more of them, and only one of you. That's a successful dog pile. These days, it's usually the other way around.

You're not going to win this just by constantly saying "actually the opposite is true, go play this game I pretended to read once instead."

>>49737789
If success is measured by numbers, it actually seems to be two on one against Ascension. >>49737124 isn't me, for instance.

Since we're all going on about Mage can someone check my arithmetic?

Want to teleport to Hawai'i from New Orleans Gnosis 3 Space 4 and I have a freshly formed stone from a recently cooled lava flow from Mauna Loa. The Stone probably has a Strong connection to it's birthplace but I'll underestimate and say it's Medium with a withstand of 2.

So, Potency 1 minus 4 from the withstand plus 3 from being an adept in space leaves me at zero. My dice pool is 7 I'll subtract two to bring my potency back up to 1 leaving me with 5.

I'm going to play it safe and ritual cast in my basement (1 hour@ gnosis 3). I'm going to use my free reach to move the spell to sensory range and spend mana to use sympathetic casting. Everything else will be default since I'm only teleporting myself. I used up one Yantra to cast at sympathetic range leaving me with two more. I'll use High Speech for +2 and a Path tool for +1. I shouldn't have to contend with paradox since I haven't reached past my free reach.

So I've spent 1 mana 1 hour chanting and I'm going to roll 8 dice. Assuming I get a single success I should be standing on a lava field in Hawai'i correct?

>>49737503
>but to act like everything is the same period is just a complete lack of understanding of the system.

I didnt said all yantras were equal but that the system doesnt make a differentiation when a yantra doesnt fit with your character concept.

Say 2 mages for X reason can speak, the hermetic mage (assume thats his theme) cant use enochian as yantra. The other mage can position his mucles in a certain way as yantra. The hermtic can do the same and gain the same bonus.

>>49737503
>pornomancers and fast food wizards.

You had me at porno, tell me more.

>>49737503
>The Traditions are cliche stereotypes of real world magical traditions, while the Orders are broad strokes stereotypes that encompass several magical styles and Legacies.

I would counter that the tradition history feels more grounded and less convenient than the orders. And that the "more options" that the order offer rest entirely on the hands of the ST to put work basically paying $60 for a rulebook that pretty says "do the setting yourself" which is kinda the oppossite of ascension "do the rules yourself"

Ascension let me to read the kybalion thank to their epic portrayal of the hermetic. And in the end thats why people get into wod to play something recognizable. Is when they start believing anyone cares about their original ideas we get shit like beast.

Awakening just forced me to read through the order books to find any silver linning in the shit that was their first core. And the orders arent that good, either.

Yes they have a belief of what they should be done with magic but little else variety. Race, nationality and class plays no part in them and to a degree they feel alien.

The legacies are good, i will grant that. I mostly put an emphasis on Legacies and take the bland order into the background.

>>49737824

If you're counting that single post, that only makes it two on two. Otherwise, it's two people versus you, which is a small dogpile, but a dogpile no less.

>>49737859

Yes, you should have successfully teleported, I hope you enjoy the entire floor being lava.

>>49737859
Is Withstand subtracted twice because of the two locations? Wouldn't it only be 2 once, not 4? Also, I don't actually know if two objects can have sympathy with each other. All the examples are people with objects and people with people.

Also, that sounds right.

>>49737936
I'm finding it hard to translate you, but I'm assuming you're saying "say two mages are incapable of speaking. One of them uses chanting as a Yantra while the other uses a Mudra. The mage that chants can still use the Mudra to gain the same bonus."
I feel like you're misunderstanding how Yantras work. You can't just do a thing at random. You don't get to just say "I wiggle my toes as the Yantra for this spell". More than that, especially Mudras (which are never just "positioning the muscles in a certain way", but it's not like you're arguing in good faith anyway, so I'll assume that's sarcasm) require learning and practice. They're the one type of Yantra that you actually have to purchase mechanically, as opposed to something you can declare (Rotes. Rotes are Mudra Yantra).

"Paradigm" exists in Awakening, it's just not a focus to nearly the same degree. In Ascension you're penalized for going outside your Paradigm. In Awakening, though, you're given bonuses for working within it (and especially at low Gnosis, you're going to NEED those bonuses).

>And that the "more options" that the order offer rest entirely on the hands of the ST to put work basically paying $60 for a rulebook that pretty says "do the setting yourself" which is kinda the oppossite of ascension "do the rules yourself"
I'm not even sure what this means. I'm talking about Legacies and the like.

>>49737936
>And in the end thats why people get into wod to play something recognizable. Is when they start believing anyone cares about their original ideas we get shit like beast.
You do realize that people actually DO like Awakening, right? I feel like it's actually the standout among the edition warring in that I see far more people liking Awakening than Ascension, compared to Masquerade or Apocalypse. Also, you do realize that there are people who DO like Beast, right?
But then again, you also seem to think people only recognize the term "Atlantis" because of a Disney movie that flopped.

>Race, nationality and class plays no part in them and to a degree they feel alien.
You mean upper middle class white people's stereotypes of race, nationality, and class have no part in the Orders. There's actually quite a bit of variety to the Orders, even internally. While a lot of people agree that Awakening has a bad corebook, you don't sound like you've read the whole line as you claimed you did. And there are definitely good concepts within the Orderbooks. If you don't like Masque, for instance, you can just get out.

>You had me at porno, tell me more.
Magic in Unknown Armies is about becoming obsessed with things. Pornography, fast food, etcetera. Your magic is focused entirely around that obsession. It's your insistence that Paradigms make the game better pushed to 11.

>>49738011
Is it two? It seems like it's the one guy. And it's not just that single post.
Also, he said "recently cooled". Lava field doesn't mean "currently melted burning lava".

>>49738106

It's two, and in this thread, it's the one post. You're the only person whose consistently trying to...I'm not even sure at this point, since it just seems to be an row over playstyle preferences.

Eventually you've just got to shrug your shoulders and move on.

>>49738095
>magic is about becoming obsessed with things.
One form of magic, and the most 'powerful'.
It's also about a paradox from that obsession.

The drinking one for example, you drink to escape your problems, but drinking is causing your problems. Your powerful and able to control things, only when your drunk and losing control of yourself.

It's madness system is great, and I substitute other games madness systems for it whenever I can.

>>49738011
I'll scry first to make sure the floor is solid/no sleepers around. :-D

>>49738060
I think you're right the -4 was because I was thinking of 2 die per rank of potency but this is default potency before dice are involved. So the new potency should be 1 default potency minus 2 from withstand plus 3 from my skill in the arcana for a default potency of 2. So redoing my arithmetic I should be rolling 8 dice.

The 'mystical connection' is deliberately nebulous in the book. A random rock by the side of the road probably doesn't have much connection to anything but a newly formed piece of obsidian freshly created by a volcano probably has some metaphysical weight to it.

>>49738315
I mean 10 die. Damn typos.

So guy who made the Changling charater Mr. Teeth earlier in this thread, and now I'm stuck thinking about more of the Court of Teeth whould be about.

They're a High Wyrd, low Clarity focused court, and don't tend to stick around in one place long because of what they do. And what they do is Consume.
Their response to the changes from being taken is to embrace being different, not to try to be fae, but to be something that's Once was Human, but no longer is.

There is a ritual for joining, The Eating of the Past. The changling finds their fetch, and their former life, and kills and consumes it. The consuming of the fetch can be literal, but the more important part is the symbolic. Their prossessions are destroyed or sold, their connections ruined or twisted, their identity sold or used for fraud.

>>49738256
technically i've posted twice
>>49736014
>>49737124
but yes, I did only defend awakening once. I'm not super into the argument, I think paradigm guy is a bit too zealous in his hatred of awakening, because its not a bad game, far from it. It seems to me the hate from awakening stems from the fact that its not ascension, but we have ascension for that, why would the other game need to be similar? And anyone who states that one is objectively better than the other is talking out of their ass.

>>49738365

Ah, forgot to look at that one, sorry, Anon.

I think there's a place to say "I don't like this game because it's not the other game" and I think it's a valid opinion, but it's not really something that needs to be argued over for multiple threads, much less rebutted. Someone not liking your game isn't actually going to make your game worse, after all.

Just saying here, if you want to make a Mage who does everything based on electricity, just make up a Shadow Name based on something like "Elektro", "Tesla", "Watt", or something similar, and pour a few merit dots into that persona.
You'll have basically THE strongest Yantra in the game, but it'll only work with electricity-themed stuff.

>>49737783
lol you never been in a fight

>>49736964
vitae is deep in their soul,and it moves on its own
the only acception is when blush of life is active, but even then they bleedbut damage is fake
its all in the book

>>49737783
You aim at center mass if you're firing a gun at someone and aren't a sharpshooter. In melee you keep your eyes on theirs.

>>49728967
Hey, so, I might be running a game of Hunter: The Vigil in the near future, any tips for beginners? I have a VERY basic understanding of the system and a decent bit of knowledge of the setting, but not much beyond that.

>>49738555

Keep to one Tier if you can. For you, I highly suggest you keep things at Tier 1. Less setting and power baggage, so you can learn at your own pace.

Don't feel like you have to stick to other CofD creatures as targets, get creative with the Dread Powers

>>49737503
>I'm not that guy, but I already weighed in on that. The Traditions are cliche stereotypes of real world magical traditions, while the Orders are broad strokes stereotypes that encompass several magical styles and Legacies.

Actually, that would be the Traditions as well. That was explained here >>49722964 and that wasn't made up. That was in the old source material.

>>49737309
Bruh... the mage edition wars have been going on for seventeen years. And for the past couple, the Awakening fans have been spitting hot fire while we've been sitting back and saying "It's okay. You can like your thing and we can like ours."

And we're just tired of defending the the very reasonable assertion that this thing that we like has value.

>>49738359
The court of Teeth has 2 contracts like the other courts, but instead of Fleeting and Eternal, they focus on the too aspects of Consuming, Taking and Destroying.

Early ideas floating in my head.

Taking:
1) Eyes on the stomic
Find out what the targets current strongest emotion (fear/desire/anger/sorrow) is focused on.
2)I'll have some of that.
Force the target to feel an emotion towards you (again fear/desire/ etc)
catch is having a piece or image of the thing they feel that emotion strongest about.
3)I'll have what she's having
copy an supernatural effect the target being subjected to
4) Identity Theft
Take on anothers appearance
Catch: Eat part of their face.

Consuming Teeth

Memory Eating:
Destroy part of a persons memory.

4 or 5) Destroy weakness
Temporarily remove one of your Frailties, but treat your Wyrd as one lower while this is in effect
Catch: Consume an ounce of your own flesh.

Is promethean intended to be run alongside another splat in the same way Beast is?

Given how rare prometheans are supposed to be a full party of them seems weird.

>>49728967
Thats not how blood works. It doesn't just quirt out of a hole in a giant line like a hose. This picture triggers my autism

>>49738451
>I think there's a place to say "I don't like this game because it's not the other game" and I think it's a valid opinion, but it's not really something that needs to be argued over for multiple threads, much less rebutted. Someone not liking your game isn't actually going to make your game worse, after all.

Didnt this all start when someone post that setting wise, awakening was better and more "mature"? And ascension was full of theme park mascot and other sjw bullshit?

How do you play a 'moral' character without coming off as a contrarian ass trying to subvert the tone of the story?

I had a character who was a police investigator before being turned by a draugr.
I got the distinct feeling that I was annoying the storyteller by resolving situations how I felt my character would and just generally not being the complete cunt you're supposed to become upon being embraced.

>>49738660

That's how it is now, but that wasn't how it was in 2005. Which is why I commented on it, the other way around is more common these days.

>>49738908

It all started when someone brought up that they felt that the Traditions felt more real than than the Orders did. That aspect of the argument is Aspel's usual gish galloping and hyperbole.

>>49736514
I'm not talking about that, anon. I'm talking about "Swords do lethal to vampires" stuff from 1e

>>49739037
Well you aren't supposed to become a cunt immediately after being embraced. It takes time.

>>49739050
Yeah, well. Aspel can't even right now.

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Why there isn't flaws in cofd?

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So, I'm thinking of running a Requiem game for Halloween. I'm using 1e for multiple reasons, chiefly being that I dislike 2e's mechanics and setting changes (although the Strix, God-Machine, and other new additions are optional anyway, I still don't like 2e's mechanics).

However, I'm amping up the retro feel with Requiem by playing the game like it was in 2004-2005 when the nWoD/CofD setting was in its infancy. I'm only using the WoD corebook (AKA The Blue Book) and the Requiem 1e Corebook as well, and nothing else. I may include Mage and Werewolf NPC's since they are vaguely referenced in the Requiem 1e core, but I'm keeping them NPC only. Bloodlines are also not playable at first, though I may add them later when I add the various supplements into the game as the chronicle progresses.

I do make mechanical and fluff changes as always. No Predator's Taint and no emotional deadness either. I'm on the fence on whether or not to scrap Humanity. If I keep it, I won't be super-stringent about it.

Setting is the West Coast. Multiple cities and countryside, in an action-horror sandbox style of gameplay. I may run it as play-by-post or run it IRL with a small group (mainly my younger brother and my best friend).

Also, I'd like to wish you guys as Happy Halloween in advance. Pic actually related for once because it's October and Halloween is coming.

>>49739321
please fuck off camilla

>>49739319

There is and isnt. In Nwod flaws, you would take flaws but only get XP when they impact negatively to your PC.

In CoD you take persistent conditions that give you a beat when they do the same

>>49739343
Fuck off, Aspel

>>49739343
At least I'm being civil for once.

I hope you have a Happy Halloween, by the way!

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>>49739353
I do am aware of that, but why not in the character creation?
Is there a reason or something?

>>49738451
I agree, it is a valid opinion, we like things for reasons and it makes sense to not like something that doesn't. Were I stand, however, is that both games are good, they are good for different reasons, but both can be enjoyed, the reason I went after paradigm guy was because I read those comments first, I just woke up and saw someone going off at awakening. For the record, I quite like ascension, I like the traditions and I LOVE the technocracy, but I also like awakening, and I like the orders.

My issue comes from this idea that the two are opposed because they both have the name mage in the title, they are different games, but it constantly feels as if you can only enjoy one or the other, which is bullshit. idfk, maybe I'm projecting.

Complete side tangent, anyone know a place to get good background art for WoD games? Specifically urban enviroments and interiors. Not pictures but art, something about photos throws me off when STing, idk what it is. Using roll20 to run a hunter game and i've used the same building 20 times.

>>49739374
Don't know, maybe they wrote the new system that way to prevent min-maxing with merits and flaws, as oWoD's system was infamous for.

>>49739374
While not the official answer, I always felt like flaws where super gamey, if your character has a limp you can easily represented that with attributes and roleplay, no need to get extra freebie points for it.

>>49739409
Agreed

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>>49739050
There's a way to handle that. On my home-board, we had someone like this. A trip/pseudo-trip that couldn't help but fag everything up.

But everyone slips and posts something that they shouldn't post. In this case, the fact that his mother was dying of cancer. So, whenever he popped up, everything became "why hasn't your mother died of cancer yet?" and other variations on a theme, sometimes posted with pictures of breasts that had explosively grown tumors that expanded so quickly that they tore the skin. It's a blue board and we weren't afraid to take a banning. Any thread that they entered, this was all that they got. As they revealed more and more of themselves through stress-caused, forced errors we were eventually able to dox them. Now we don't have to worry.

So, when you are able to positively identify Aspel, answer him only with " >>>/d/ ", kink-shame him or post his RP logs.

Food for thought.

>>49739428
Yeah, Aspel pisses me off.

Camilla's a moron and a dick at times, but he doesn't post as frequently as Aspel does, instead coming and going every few weeks or months, so his idiocy isn't as persistent as Aspel's.

Also, if >>49739321 is any indication, he's at least attempting to be civil this time. Yeah, he's sperging about "action-horror", his preference of 1e over 2e, and he's posting anime pics again, but in his defense, he hasn't done any Goth-bashing or ranting about the evils of personal horror and how Martin Ericsson raped his childhood this time. I'll give him credit where credit is due, although I still think he's an idiot.

Camilla's a dickhead and a complete moron, but he at least attempts to improve as of recently, and has improved slightly. Slightly.

Aspel just doubles down on his self-righteousness, idiocy, and overall douchebaggery and acts like he's the victim.

So, while I'd rather have neither Aspel nor Camilla shitting up these threads, I can handle Camilla slightly more than Aspel mainly due to the fact he doesn't post as frequently or as consistently as Aspel does.

>>49739428
>>49739518

So Im kinda new here, who exactly is Aspel and why should I hate him?

>>49736964
Not the person you were asking, but i read once that the blood was kept in their heart, to the point where some specific kinds of damage to the heart halves their blood pool.
Also, if you want vampires but weak, just use ghouls or low gens. They exist pretty much entirely for that purpose anyway.

>>49739542
An extremely persistent and arrogant shitposter.

>>49739542
Aspel is Tumblr and "Stop liking what I don't like!" personified.

>>49739385
>ete side tangent, anyone know a place to get good background art for WoD games? Specifically urban enviroments and interiors. Not pictures but art, something about photos throws me off when STing, idk what it is. Using roll20 to run a hunter game and i've used the same building 20 times.

Pinterest?

>>49733800
thank you sir

>>49739321
In my 1e game (because I despise 2e and goths) my players are going back in time to the night of septermber 13 of 1996 so save Tupac and become true anime gangstas

>>49739579
This, oh so much this.

I also find it amusing that whenever Camilla comes here to shitpost, Aspel starts attacking him immediately and acts all high and mighty as if he's accepted here.

It's the pot calling the kettle black.

Aspel has several major issues. Camilla's only real major issue is that he's so hung up and caught up on a very specific playstyle that usually isn't found in WoD or CofD games.


As I had stated before, Aspel is probably the worst consistent non-troll shitposter on these threads I have seen. Camilla's probably in second place but he wins some brownie points for me simply because he's actually semi-aware of the fact he's hated here and will eventually fuck off and leave these threads alone for weeks or months at a time.

We don't have to deal with his stupidity nearly as much as Aspel's.

>>49739587
Obvious troll is obvious.

The real Camilla would include characters from Sailor Moon, Black Lagoon, and Grand Theft Auto in his chronicle. You can't save Tupac unless you have Revy and Sailor Mercury at your side to help you.

Try harder next time.

>>49739321
What is it about 2e's mechanics you don't like? Enquiring minds want to know.

>>49739623
Aspel also earns the ire of people who kinda agree with him, because every time someone posts something that COULD be an Aspel-post, based on ideology or similar, one gets confused with Aspel, and discounted for being an idiot.
Aspel refuses to fix this by using a tripcode.
Jakki got turned from a bogeyman into someone accepted just because they started tripping.

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>>49739645
I don't like the reworked Disciplines, Touchstones, Masks and Dirges, or anything really.

I'm perfectly comfortable with the 1e system and don't feel the need to re-learn a new system for the same setting. From my perspective, 2e is trying to fix something that wasn't broken.

Pic posted so you know it's me. Sorry for the avatarfagging.

>>49739579
>Aspel is Tumblr and "Stop liking what I don't like!" personified.

Aspel is the guy/girl/thing that likes Ascension or the one who likes Awakening?

>>49739687
I think Awakening is Aspel's game, but I am unsure.

>>49739319
There pretty much are, you can just ask the GM at creation, "Hey man, can I take a persistant condition like mute, addicted, et cetera" and farm it for beats just the same as you could farm flaws.

So, anybody got any games planned for Halloween?

>>49739518
camilla is worse. i dont know if you were there for their reign of shitposting/trolling terror but once they get in the mood for it it's nonstop. camilla & aspel are both broken records that can't stop saying the same thing but camilla has way more malice

Here's the real question who's worse aspel or 2hou?

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Those two faggots are the kind of crowd games like CofD and especially oWoD inevitably attract. Feel free to make fun of their autism whenever they post but don't clutter the thread with discussion about them.

>>49739822
aspel pls you dumb neet

>>49739822
Camilla probably is more venomous but he doesn't post as frequently as Aspel does. He'll ragequit and then fuck off for several weeks.

Yeah, it's inevitable that he'll come back but Camilla's maliciousness and autism comes in short bursts contained in one or two threads every so often. Aspel is more persistent and shits up every thread every single time.

Both are horrible and I wish both would fuck off and never post here again, but Aspel is marginally worse only due to his persistence. Camilla has more malice but it's more half-assed.

>>49739856
>don't clutter the thread with discussion about them.

Can we clutter the thread about who is the faggiest on onyxpath forums?

>>49739763

I got a Mage game going the day before.

One of the persistent mysteries of my city is all hallow's eve is a night free of the lie. Spells suffer no paradox and sleepers don't suffer quiescence. After the 13th chime at midnight all spells that have been performed that day are reverted as though they were never cast and sleepers have no memory of what they may have seen that day.

There is a long standing armistice pact between the pentacle and the seers to perform no magic on this day but something always comes up and 'rogue elements' always seem to act up.

>>49739971
Cool

>>49739687
Awakening. If you say anything nice about Ascension, suddenly Aspel can't even anymore.

>>49739428
>kink shame someone who gets off on humiliation

>>49739037
Honestly it sounds more like a problem with your group then anything else.

>>49739037
>and just generally not being the complete cunt you're supposed to become upon being embraced.
vampires aren't complete cunts
but they do have a hunger for blood and power and domination
nothing wrong with being a cop
but it doesn't sound like you're playing the rest of vampire at all

>>49740318
>but they do have a hunger for blood
sure
>power
well hold on a minute
>domination
woah

You gain hunger for only one of those things by being a vampire. The rest is on you.

What does injury look like on a Promethean, as of 2E?

>>49730842
Well Geist hasn't been updated since 2009, but most of their broken powers come from just shutting down enemies and making themselves hard as fuck to hit. Geist 2e was finally formally announced and should probably be out sometime next year, a lot of it will be refocusing, unifying themes and keeping things thematic. It's been said it's going to be the most drastically changed book that is getting a second edition, some of it being lorewise, but primarily the actual mechanics, powers, etc. Also getting a lot of brand new stuff and throwing out some of the old.

Would controlling an objects mass fall under Forces or Matter?

I would assume matter so you could make something near weightless by veiling it's mass from the force of gravity. Thoughts?

>>49740513
Both, either

>>49740365
>You gain hunger for only one of those things by being a vampire. The rest is on you.
the rest comes with the beast
it's in the book, fucking read it

>>49740513
mass = matter
use matter to make it super light
or use forces to cut off gravitys pull
either way

>>49740572
>>49740536
Relativistic ammunition here I come.

>>49740538
The beast doesn't do anything of your own volition unless you want it to, which, again, is on you.

>>49740678
>The beast doesn't do anything of your own volition unless you want it to

Unless you starve it, then it swims off to eat people at random

Can Tremere become archmaster?

>>49740851
I'd say no. Their souls are probably too mutilated to make the trip.

I think arch mastery will be expanded upon in Signs of Sorcery.

>>49739428
Its better to just ignore the shitter. It drives him utterly insane, its why he doesn't put on a trip, because he knows he'd be filtered totally. He wants attention, of any sort.

I'm curious if anyone has a copy of "W20 Shattered Dreams" or "W20 Kinfolk: A Breed Apart" they'd like to share?

Or, if they have them but don't want to share, I'd at least like to hear their opinions on the books and whether they think they're worth paying for.

inb4 the usual "lol, wod sucks, play cofd" responses to this post.

>>49741066
Have you tried the 7 begging thread?

>>49741066
Edit: Never mind about W20 Shattered Dreams, I was apparently under the delusion that the book had been released. Seems it hadn't, heh.

>>49741071
>Have you tried the 7 begging thread?
Yarp.

Why do we have two threads?

>>49741113
People keep posting in the other one

>>49740698
Wait... Which game are we discussing again?

>>49741113

Because we don't know how to be normal, apparently.

>>49741170

Vampire, but someone confused it for Beast: The Primordial discussion because, you know The Beast.

>>49738660
You sound a lot more like you're saying this thing other people like has no value.

>>49738852
Disquiet actively makes that difficult.
But it *is* supposed to be run in a world where strange shit is common. So is Beast.
Neither game does this as well as Hunter (Mage comes close). The CofD corebook really helps with creating weird shit.

>>49739097
>>49739050
>Aspel did this thing we all do

>>49739319
Persistent Conditions.
I really do wish that the Corebook had a big list of Conditions, so that more could be used as Flaws, or taken when you lose Integrity. But it isn't hard to port over the existing ones.

Can a beast have the soul of a werewolf?

What about the soul of a vampire?

Can a beast with the soul of a vampire be embraced by a vampire in order to become a Beast with the Beast and if so does frenzying do anything at all.

>>49741496
No, Horrors are too primal and ancient to take the form of their childlike cousins

>>49739386
>Don't know, maybe they wrote the new system that way to prevent min-maxing with merits and flaws, as oWoD's system was infamous for.

I kinda miss the old mid maxing. People took more flaws as they though they could get extra XP and pass that under the radar....they were wrong.

Also i like the more weird flaws you could take. Like in vampire, shit like having vulnerability to silver or couldnt pass running water was kind of flavorful or being bald or havig an abusive partner in hunter.

>>49741496
Small "w" werewolf? Yes.
Capital "W" Werewolf? No.
Small "v" vampire? Yes.
Capital "V" Vampire? No.
No template stacking, so no Embrace would take.

>>49741496
Can a Beast have the soul of the greatest monster of all? Man?

Ya'll motherfuckers spend any moment I'm not around circlerjerking about me, and you act like I'm the problem. You don't hate me, you hate the idea of me.

>>49739685
Yes, but WHY don't you like those things.
2e is much better for playing a mafia game. I'd have thought you'd like that.

>>49741508
>No, Horrors are too primal and ancient to take the form of their childlike cousins
Isn't there a bit about how modern horrors are things? Like sunken submarine Makara and looming fascist headquarters Anakim?

>>49741526
>Like in vampire, shit like...
Banes. Those are Banes in 2e.

>>49741630
>You don't hate me, you hate the idea of me.

Implying we dont hate both.

>>49741630
>Banes. Those are Banes in 2e.

Also, i meant on the other splats besides Vampire.

>>49741630
>>>/d/

Does CoD have vampire media?

If I were to call someone a Count Chocula looking motherfucker would others get the joke or just assume I'm being racially insensitive.

>>49741770
You really think that's gonna work? You must be new here.

>>49741789
Why wouldn't it? It's meant to be our world. It's not like Walking Dead, where there's no zombie media. That said, most vampires are either too old or too busy being part of the undead mafia to sit around using the internet (save for that one NEET catphishing Daeva), so they're not really going to be caught up on pop culture super well.

>>49741461

Just because other people do it doesn't mean that you don't get called out for it. It just ends up sticking for you because you make yourself well-known.

>>49739579
>Aspel is Tumblr (...) personified.
I thought that was Mister "mind my pronouns" Atamajakki

>>49741905

Nah, she's OK by me. Good taste in games.

>>49741630

Nah, I don't hate you. You just suck at arguing, you don't know when to disengage, and you can't even be bothered to complete your homebrew, even when a professional editor looks over your work for free. I can't really hate someone I just end up feeling sorry for.

You're an annoying weirdo, but you're also a part of the local color and you're willing to be the thread punching bag in the name of chatting with people like us, so you can puff yourself up on that.

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>>49742129
>she

>>49741836
It will if it's a community effort.

>>49742353

That would take far more effort than it would to just not reply, and I don't really care about this thread THAT much.

>>49739763

I've got plans for Halloween proper, but I've been considering it. Might run something in Mortal from the GMC book. My usual groups are pretty scrapped for time, so I might open it up to this general. We'll see.

>>49742764
Just our regular game.

>>49742144
she's starting transitioning

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>>49743629
HAHA!

No one cares.

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>>49743629
>transitioning
Yeah, into a Frankenstein eunuch.

So, is there any part of CofD or WoD lore that you feel has been forgotten that you'd like to see picked up on again?

>>49743952
m-muh purified

I'm new to WoD and CoD. I'm looking through V:tR now, and it looks cool, but some of the cruac and theban magic things seem useless to me. Like, when would you even use Stigmata? It takes at the very least 15 minutes to use, and the target must be present for the ritual.

>>49744047
>V:tR

Disciplines and Blood Sorcery

Disregard Cruac

>>49744059
Stigmata is theban sorcery, not cruac

>>49743646
no need to be jealous
just because you don't do what it takes to improve your life doesn't mean no one else can

>>49733457
Antitribu, so we can be terrorist rapists together

>>49741905
Attam is PC, sure. But they're not on Aspels level I'd argue.

>>49743952
>is there any part of CofD or WoD lore that you feel has been forgotten that you'd like to see picked up on again?

I would like to know what the fuck is a vidantus in mage awakening. The adamantine arrow book says that is a status for arrows that are to badass grampa or to fags to fight anymore.

Nice, nice the Adamantine arrow retirement plan. Very amine.

But then it says that a vidantus cant switch orders. Order switching is rare but it does happen so what gives? Why would an retired arrow not choose to switch order before getting a shameful titles for life. Or better put if an arrow knows he is getting to the vidantus point why not jump ship beforehand?

Also i would like more lore on balehounds. And 2e Tremere.

>>49743952
The Rmoahals.

>>49740851
So long as you don't have any Soul Stones, sure.

>>49744356

Do you need gnosis 10 for archmastery? I though you only needed arcanum 6. Or is one of those rules that said "no archmastery while you have a soul stone"?

>>49744411
Hmmm, no, you're right.
You can still be an Archmaster with Soulstones.
But never Ascend.

However many rituals to become an Archmaster will require a whole soul, untainted by compromise and self-mutilation to function.
At least, that's the example one.

>>49744511
You can absolutely Ascend while leaving soul stones behind.

Gnosis 10 is not and never has been a requirement for Ascension.

>>49743629
Why would any doctor allow someone to butcher themselves like that? Did they forget their oath?

>>49744999
For the same reason they'll perform abortions, even though that literally kills a human.

Because shit and giggles? Or you know, money.

>>49744411
You have reabsorb your stones before becoming an archmaster. You need gnosis 6 and you obtain your 6th arcana dot as part of becoming an archmaster.

>>49745019
Greed, selfishnes, and/or falsely believing that it's right or acceptable?

>>49745103
>Greed, selfishnes, and/or falsely believing that it's right or acceptable?

Hey now, someone got to produce prometheans somehow.

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I just started STing for VTM: 20th ed. It's not only my first time DMing, but also my first time playing a WoD game.

In our first play session, things moved so slowly because I had no idea off-the-bat what my PC's had to roll for anything. It doesn't help that there was no quick info (that I could find) in the core book. We had a frenzy situation and it took us 10 minutes to find it. Otherwise I was bumbling through a character sheet trying to figure out what they should be rolling for at given times. This really broke the immersion of the game :(

tl;dr:
What are the most common, most-used dice rolls I should readily know in VTM: 20ed?

Here is this dm screen I bought, which didn't help me as much as I hoped.

>>49744999
>>49745103
Because your understanding of the Hippocratic Oath is inaccurate at best. "First, do no harm" isn't in the Oath, and even if it was, literally all of surgery would be breaking the oath, as the act of surgery requires causing and then repairing planned harm. Calling anything modern surgery does "butchery" has more in common with the *actual* incredibly skillful process by which a butcher portions and makes meat presentable than it does with the gruesome associations the word has in common parlance. Calling it butchery is a completely biased judgement call on your part, and not something grounded in fairness or reason.

Beyond that, a doctor would 'allow' someone to go through with gender reassignment surgery for the same reason that they'd 'allow' someone to remove a tumour or wart, or undergo cosmetic surgery to fix social or aesthetic concerns. Except that transitioning is far more than a cosmetic concern, as transitioning is the most reasonable and best treatment for Gender Dysphoria.

But I'm pretty sure you already know that and you're just trying to bait comments like this.

>>49745189
How didn't it help?

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>>49745329
>as transitioning is the most reasonable and best treatment for Gender Dysphoria.
Which is why they all kill themselves.

>>49745369
Transitioning greatly reduces the risk of self-harm. It's still higher than the general population, but they also face discrimination and harassment, regardless of transition status.

>>49745329

>He's got a severe psychological disorder let's open up his head, remove or play around with some parts, and electrify his brain. That should cure it circa 1910.

>He's got a severe psychological disorder, let's start cutting up pieces of him, fucking around with his genitals and pumping him full of drugs (keeping in mind that all other drugs are just scams by big pharma to make money be pretending they work when they actually don't) until his body is so fucked it's unrecognizable. That should cure it circa 2016.

Scientific progress my friends.

>>49745329
It gave me some good tables for what difficulties are where. It was mildly helpful, but I wished that it had a table with common dice rolls. Didn't have a lot of those.

like, it had a table for frenzy, but didn't quickly reference what stats I needed to roll for it.

I feel like once I better know what to roll, this ST screen would be more helpful.

>>49745432
Here:
>(keeping in mind that all other drugs are just scams by big pharma to make money be pretending they work when they actually don't)
Is where you lost me.

>>49745432
>keeping in mind that all other drugs are just scams by big pharma to make money be pretending they work when they actually don't
Are you also anti-vaxx, then?
Also, if someone has psychological issues over the way their body is, why is changing that body wrong? Are you also against tattoos?
Why should a person not have the right to change their body?

Why should anyone care what you have to say about their body?

Will you also oppose bodyhacking in general? Do you oppose pacemakers? Intrauterine devices? Prosthetics? Cosmetic surgery? Piercings? Scarification? Is giving my dog an RFID implant wrong? What if I want one myself?

Or, is it possible that informed consent is a thing, and having actual studies--and even people to talk to who have gone through it--is very different from the kind of treatment that was being given in the dark ages of psychotherapy. For one, the patient actually matters. You aren't forced into GSR, you request it, and psychologists sign off on it. Two of them, in fact. You need two letters to get GSR. Two letters from people who know far more about the workings of the human brain and have far more information available to them than those in the 1900s.
Nevermind that electroshock therapy actually can be effective, since this is 2016 and not 1910. In 1900 "the patient is no longer a problem" is a meaningful solution. In 2016 "the patient is happy and comfortable" is a meaningful solution to work towards.

I'm going to trust the fucking American Psychiatric Association and American Psychology Association over the random musings of some uninformed nobody on the internet who thinks trans people are just mentally ill and "ugh, so totally gross".

>It's a "people pretend to be concerned about psychological and medical procedures" episode

Is Kindred: The Embraced on any legit streaming service? I feel like marathoning it this month. Figured I'd ask here before going anywhere else.

>>49745596
Doesn't seem to be.

>>49745189
Read and re read the rules. You'll never be able to remember everything but that's okay. You need to be familiar enough to call them up in a pinch and to make a judgement call off the cuff. Don't be afraid to make a decision and then stick with it.

"No" is also your new favorite word.

You should know about skill checks, frenzy states and the virtues associated with them, extended actions and how the humanity system functions. If you do nothing else right, you must do humanity right.

Ability checks should come whenever there is a chance of failure ie. Picking a lock or seducing someone for the purposes of feeding.

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Non-shitty thread here!

>>49728736
>>49728736
>>49728736
>>49728736
>>49728736

>>49745686
It's going to become shitty now that Aspel knows it exists.

>>49745329
Rory you stupid fucking cunt. Stop responding to trolls and turning the threads into flame wars. Maybe then we'll stop fucking hating you.

>>49745189
Right away, I'd write the page numbers for Auspex's interactions with other disciplines and how much information can be gained from what successes right on top of the aura color chart.

>>49745626

Damnit, gonna have to trawl YouTube then.

>>49745686

You fool! I was hoping we'd save that for when this thread hits page 10!

>>49745700
>>49745686
It already started shitty with that pastebin and starter image.

>>49745775

I will not tolerate you insulting one of the greatest works of fan art in my presence.

I demand satisfaction! Pistols at dawn!

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What kind of mages are mim and merlin?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_VpkXd1TKA

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New thread

>>49748413
>>49748413
>>49748413