/CofD/ &/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

>>49667321
No, because my group is painfully simple in thinking up olans because when someone gets inventive we have one player who is terrified that it will all go wrong and insists we stick to the obvious path. I think even the GM is getting bored with that.

>>49667321

If Jackal Paw Blues had Here Come the Mummies in it, I'm pretty sure Last Dynasty would immediately fallen to their insatiable groove.

>>49668040
What's Jackal Paw Blues?

>>49668083

Final story in The Curse of the Blue Nile, the Mummy the Curse anthology. It follows the main characters of the core book's opening fiction, and it might be my favorite piece in it. I'm a sucker for stories that focus on musical groups in the World of Darkness/Chronicles of Darkness.

>>49668108
>. It follows the main characters of the core book's opening fiction
The Sammi dude and his angry mummy patron? Nice. Also yes, HCTM would be a potent weapon in the musical wars against evil. I play a mummy/mummy cultist in a mixed game and the Arisen basically collects mummy pop culture knick knacks because he is just delighted that they are such a cultural institution and he would probably force the entire group to a HCTM concert just to acquire swag.

>>49668108
>“Egypt needs us,” the tall man said. “Egypt… has the blues.”

This is off to a great start, anon. Amkhata and violence and blues.

>>49668143

Yeah, it focuses on them, some new characters, and Drake Adams, one of the heads of Last Dynasty. It's great stuff.

Back when I ran my Mummy game, the pop culture idea of a mummy was a clear attempt at misdirection applied by many Arisen and cultists over the past few hundred years, though very few of them ever realize that it's a far more collaborative effort than expected.

>>49668763
Honestly I just figured it was like the pop culture vampires. Something existed in the world and then Hollywood made it popular. Nice to know though that people understand to fear the Curse of the Mummy, even in the back of their minds where they'd normally laugh it off.

What y'all think?

Singularity
Space ••••• (Unmaking)
Primary factor: Duration

The mage eradicates the space between all objects within the range of the spell (Scale controls the how much stuff will get collapsed) collapsing everything into a single point, or a black hole as it's known to sleeper science, after the spell elapses the collapsed material violently returns to it's original position. However, precious little remains of mundane material, other than ionized gas, after such an experience.

Using such a spell on living creatures is an act of hubris against falling wisdom.

>>49660889
Most pentacle mages understand that Atlantis is a metaphor or a symbol. It's used to represent the awakened civilization or civilizations that existed in the time before.

>>49660919
Creative differences. One side wanted to focus on princesses as a society while the other wanted to focus on princesses as small groups. One book puts more emphasis on princess run organizations and it's powerset is tweaked to the reflect this more social outlook. The other is focused more on boots on the ground and doing what little you can to help. Don't remember which is which unfortunately.

With Halloween coming up do you think it's celebrated specially among the creatures of WoD? Nosferatu winning costume contests and Kindred getting together to watch cheesy vampire flicks? Or would the holiday just be considered a kind of supernatural blackface?

>>49669161
It might be one of the few days of the year where they can operate openly.

>>49668941
Collapse (Space OOOO) p. 177 effectively does the same thing, though with different factors. Arcana 4 stuff tends to not have save or die effects though; that'd be for Arcana 5.

>>49669161
Pentacle Mages have known for generations the power of All Hallows Eve, but the reasons why are a great and (so far) impregnable Mystery.

Mages who refrain from magic use entirely on from midnight to midnight on Hallween may undertake a universal ritual known as the Trick or Treat. They go to sleepers and beg for unclear arcane significance; low value trinkets, dental supplies and most commonly candy.

At the first stroke of November morning, any collected items convert spontaneously into Tass, each holding a point of mana. Those who undertook the Trick or Treat in pageantry resembling their Shadow Name (known colloquially as a "halloween costume") feel a swell of renewal and roll their Gnosis; success rewarding them with either restored Wisdom (+1, or +2 on an exceptional success) or arcane beats = their successes (double on an ex. success).

Of course the requirement to forgo magic entirely leaves many Mages undertaking the ritual vulnerable. In many Consillia, Arrows must swear to forgo it as part of their oath upon joining the order, to ensure the communities safety from joyless Seers.

>>49669307
>any collected items convert spontaneously into Tass
turn my candy into Tass? Does it at least still taste sweet?

>>49669434
Yeah, but it has a bit of an Prime-y aftertaste

>>49669466
Anon, you can't just tell that to every young mageling lady that comes to your place. It's unhygenic.

Does a Promethean have to have dots in Alternate Identity in order to have a MAIN identity?

i.e. would having 0 dots make it hard to hold a real job because you have no social security information, a birth certificate, etc.

>>49666455
>More to the point, there *are* mechanics for helicopters, in Armory, but 1) they aren't updated for 2e
Neither has Hunter, really.
Numbers are important for some things, but not others. You don't need the rules for Helicopters because having them is unlikely to be meaningful. A Helicopter dropping a payload on something is the kind of thing handled in Tilts, not caliber and round speed. There's already quite a lot in CofD that doesn't have numbers, but isn't freeform.
I'd also say you probably could homebrew it up pretty easily.

>>49666503
You know damned well that's not what it says.

>>49666634
Mages also mesh with Werewolves and now Beasts pretty well.
Not Vampires, though. Vampires in Crossover are basically people who have nothing inherently useful to them and think they're big dogs. The problem is they're fucking grimey ass gangsters who get in the way and force you to do business with them.

>>49669020
Symbol or not, there was certainly something before the Fall. That's what Atlantis is. Nothing wrong with a splat's crossover thinking they specifically mean some magical island. I mean, it's all new age bullshit even if you don't use the term Atlantis and don't believe in a single unified Awakened nation.

The one I read definitely seemed to have a lot of focus on Noble society, and their social groups. I'm glad, because that's what makes it feel like the most complete fan splat.

>>49669958
You're a hobo who doesn't exist, so yes.

>>49669304
Cool, yeah it was sort of my intention to make a flashier space spell. What would you suggest for the withstand? Stamina?

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>>49670074
>because having them is unlikely to be meaningful.
I disagree strongly. Having numbers for things that are points of contention is precisely the entire point of having numbers in RPGs. How much damage does ramming a helicopter into a person do? It does 1/2 size + speed + successes on a dex+ drive roll, in bashing (p.99). But since helicopters have no known size nor speed (in 2e, anyway), we can't calculate it. Now we *could* homebrew it, but to do so would require a better foundation. Else it's just half-assed guessing rather than extrapolation.

A vehicle isn't just there to get you from point A to B. It's a weapon. It's housing. It's a way to get to work. It's a tool used as an unambiguous signal of wealth, if not taste, which is an important factor in sexual attraction.

Now, if it's not meaningful to you, that's fine. But to dismiss it generally is awfully short-sighted. Armory 2e needs to get here soon.

>>49670369
Nope, but you're also in the wrong thread. Or maybe not, as /tg/'s the only board you need.

>>49670198

Hurt Locker's going to have vehicles, right? I'm pretty sure.

And I'm with you when it comes to stuff like helicopters and vehicles. My players do like to put points in Drive, and I think if there's going to be a skill for it, there should at least be some mechanical support in the book for it. Besides, that stuff can be pretty fun! Cars were the deadliest weapon in 1e, after all.

>>49670478
>Hurt Locker's going to have vehicles, right?
It should. I might have missed some, but the preview .docs didn't have vehicles in it, which is fine.

I'm hoping it will have more extensive modification rules. The vehicle ones in GMC were a good start, but a bit vague in matching general skill dot bonuses with modification numbers. With a bit more polishing it could be quite robust.

Is transforming into a demon while in a bolthole still a compromise?

>>49670198
First off, Hunter only half exists in 2e as it is, and your complaints seemed geared at TFV in general, and how they didn't have military equipment. Now it seems like it's all about 2e rules for things that TFV might reasonably have, like helicopters.
To start with, you only expect them to have black helicopters because of The Union's stereotypes, which doesn't necessarily mean they even have those. Even if you can requisition one, using it for anything that would require stats is the kind of thing that you're explicitly NOT supposed to be doing as a Hunter in the first place.

Second, not everything is a point of contention. Most people are pretty fine with you arbitrarily deciding how much damage a helicopter does, the same as they'd be fine with you arbitrating how much damage an explosion does. Even then, you have everything that is needed to find the information you want. For instance, there's a Size chart. If you know how big a helicopter is, you can give it a Size.

You've also added to your argument something that kind of points out what I'm saying. "Not everything has numbers as is". There's no rules for living in your car. There's definitely no rules for how well your car can get you laid.

>>49670478
>>49670628
There are cars in 2e's core. They're not as detailed as guns, but they exist, and they provide a good framework for if you want to homebrew.

>>49670730
Aren't there no Compromises in a Bolthole?

I'm going to go ahead and stat up a slake moth from Perdido Street Station for CofD, should it inflict soul loss or just straight up "if it eats you GG"

So Chris Allen was on last week saying he was thinking of updating Mass: The Effecting to CofD 2.0. How much work would that be and where would you even start?

>>49671339
What sort of game mortal/vampire/mage?

If it's a mortal game go easy on them if it's supernatural don't pull punches.

A vampire could take Brute Force from Promethean 2e if he meets the prerequisites because it doesn't list promethean as a requirement, right?

>>49671339
I remember that book.
Dad's friend game it to me when I was like, 12.
... What an early age to get an insect-girl fetish.

Also I would have it remove souls.
That was you can actually you know, solve the problem, as opposed to it being "save or die".
So long as you get there before it eats it. Use rules for Spirits.

>>49672083
I would say no. The books are specific to the supernatural species rather than an expansion of the game options as whole. It doesn't list "Promethean" as a requirement because that's implicit in the fact that it's in the Promethean book.

>>49672333
There are also merits that explicitly list 'promethean' as a requirement.

"Some Merits list “Promethean” as a
prerequisite. Human characters cannot take these Merits."

Since humans can presumably take Brute Force, I imagine Kindred could. I just don't know if there is some meta-rule hidden in one of the books somewhere about not getting chocolate in your peanut butter and not crossing supernatural books.

>>49672601
Ah, sorry. I admit I haven't yet read the Promethean books.

Actually, I guess that does make sense. If it says that human characters can have it then logically there's nothing wrong with a vampire having it too. In my mind the books were always intended to just be the core WoD book + everything within a single gameline so I would probably disallow it, but maybe you're a cooler ST than me.

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Is Werewolf the Apocalypse actually bad or is that just a meme?

>>49673073
I'ts bad, like the movie Attack of the Clones

>>49673073
it's bad

>>49672100
>>49672601
I would allow it. It's typical fighting style merit, the description is just fluff. If somebody wanted to make street brawler whose only fighting school was street, I would allow to take Martial Arts merit, just call it for instance Hard Ass Fighting. There is even paragraph on such renaming of merits in Core 2.0, I think I read it even more explicitly written somewhere else in books about such changes of fluff while keeping mechanics, but can't remember where.

Also the explicit prerequisites, I would similarly allow taking Relentless Assault because in Beast it doesn't have to be only Werewolf any more.

>>49673073
Meme. It's as bad or as good mechanically as the rest of the original WoD books. Some the hate comes from the wolves being stupid powerful compared to other splats (aggravated damage claws + crazy health regen) and some of the supporting books being famously shit (see Changing Breeds). The series theme is also pretty love it or hate it as it boils down to basically being hippie wolves vs The Man. None of it is inherently bad, but it can be polarizing so that's why so many people say it's bad.

I haven't actually played or read it though so I'm sure someone else can give you a more detailed answer, but that should be the core of it.

So two questions.

Anyone have example stories from Promethean games?

Is a slasher good starting material for a hunter game?

>>49673226
>>49673073
I think it's bad because I don't like the set up, and think the game tries way too hard to be edgy and silly. It really kind of is just Captain Planet with furry murder blenders. Like a lot of the oWoD, it tries to be "transgressive". Which is just another way of saying "childishly stupid in an attempt to be mature".

>>49671178
>Now it seems like
See, this is the problem. You come in halfway through a discussion in a prior thread and completely miss the original post's point. The original point, in summary, was that there is a disconnect between how TFV was viewed by other mortals (scary men-in-black) versus how they're viewed by supernaturals (incompetent, underfunded, and led around unwittingly by vampires). It was suggested that one way to bridge this divide was to give TFV access to mundane equipment that would still be very difficult for almost any normal individual to acquire. Like, for instance, stealth helicopters, which brings up both the issue of vehicles and modifications thereof.

>you're explicitly NOT supposed to be doing
If tagging and bagging werewolves using ultra-high tech gear isn't what TFV is supposed to be doing, then very clearly TFV isn't mechanically equitable with the way they're presented.

>If you know how big a helicopter is, you can give it a Size.
You see, this is a problem. The following things are all, canonically, the same size in CoFD:
A bank vault door, a steel lamp post, a Clydesdale, a subcompact car, and a Day Sailer are all size 8. Do they all seem like they're the same size?

An elephant and a full-size van are both size 16. An african elephant of up to 4m tall and 15,000 lbs is the same size as a 7m tall, 4,000 kg full-sized GMC savanna van? Ok, maybe, if we're rounding a bit on volume. The point is that Size is quite arbitrary (Armory quotes a C5 as size 40+, whereas a house in GMC (which is smaller in volume) is size 50), so going "eh, it's about size... 19" isn't very useful if there's no basis to go from. Note, in particular, that there's been size discrepancies between nWoD and CofD, so it's one thing we can't port over.

> There's definitely no rules for how well your car can get you laid.
Sure there is. 1 modification on a vehicle is a +2 secondary die equipment bonus, with an example that uses Persuasion. CofD p. 99

>>49673338
>Anyone have example stories from Promethean games?
http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/7307326

It's pretty fucked up, and people use it as a reason to hate (even though the response was positive way back then), but honestly this game was fun and I miss it. It was sad as hell to play, but I loved it.
I don't really care to pour through this thread and find out where it left off, but the game went on for a few months after this, though /tg/ stopped caring about my character's journey in that fickle way it does.

>>49673604
>there is a disconnect between how TFV was viewed by other mortals (scary men-in-black) versus how they're viewed by supernaturals (incompetent, underfunded, and led around unwittingly by vampires)
This is not an impression that I have ever had. In fact, as far as I'm aware we have no idea how supernaturals view Taskforce VALKYRIE. It's Taskforce VALKYRIE agents themselves who view themselves as incompetent, underfunded, and lead around by the nose. Because that's generally how many people doing government work on a need to know basis feel. And, again, Status would be exactly what gives members of the Conspiracy mundane equipment; although stealth helicopters are the kinds of things that are issued and commanded by the people in charge, not the field agents. And, again, highly detailed vehicle stats are not really necessary, regardless of whether or not you want helicopters in your games.

>tagging and bagging werewolves using ultra-high tech gear
Calling in air strikes isn't. Which, as I recall, is exactly something you mentioned.

>The point is that Size is quite arbitrary
And? I fail to see how that means anything. This game has never been one about hard and fast simulation or detailed numbers.
Do you want me to make you a helicopter?

But, you're right, this is just a tangent. Your original complaint is that TFV seems incompetent internally, but hypercompetent externally. I don't really see any problem with that. They're the bureaucracy. They just happen to be a bureaucracy that knows how to tie up the lose ends. That doesn't mean the field agents themselves need to be clued in. They're all disposable anyway.

Does Resolve have any 'proactive' applications or is it purely a reactionary attribute?

I really like the idea of a 5 resolve, 5 composure character but I don't quite know what that character could actually DO outside of being basically uninfluenceable.

>>49673866
Ludicrous motherfucking Willpower.

Do other nations have their own version of VALKYRIE?

>>49673878
Well yeah, but I mean something along the lines of 'What is this character doing for the party inbetween killing people'.

I actually really liked the idea of making a Promethean fireman with 10 willpower and just being a motherfucking hero 100% of the time.

>>49673912
Other nations with the ability to actual fund them, yes.

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>>49673744
>Status would be exactly what gives members of the Conspiracy mundane equipment
Except, again, that the proposed mundane equipment does NOT have mechanics for it. It's not just helicopters. Stealth gear, nanotech, drones, non-supernatural brainwashing drugs, Ai tanks. All this stuff is of conspiracy horror, and they'd be a great addition to Hunter 2e.

>commanded by the people in charge, not the field agents
Which is a high-status TFV agent, as explicitly worded in their Status merit. Also, that line of logic doesn't align with reality; pilots are moved out of their seats when they get promoted too high. It's LOW level grunts that actually operate the heavy machinery.

>Calling in air strikes isn't.
It was someone else, but that's fine. And why not? An enormous part of the whole Men-in-Black conspiracies is that they're able to cover up such blatant military actions. Not from supernaturals, probably, but certainly from the general public.

>I fail to see how that means anything.
The issue is that for some scenarios, particularly Mortal games that don't have funky supernatural systems, can benefit from more comprehensive systems.

>That doesn't mean the field agents themselves need to be clued in.
If you read the prior thread, you would have noticed that it was quickly pointed out that there's a difference between competence and knowledge. A field agent doesn't need to know what's going on. But they have to be able to competently carry out their mission. And given the relatively poor Advanced Armory selections, (which is how this conversation started), TFV in particular would benefit from extended mundane equipment rules.

Can vampires feed off other supernaturals at BP6+ or is it ONLY vampires?

>>49674022
Yes, if you have the Unnatural Affinity merit, Blood and Smoke p. 114, as it specifies outside of the BP table.

>>49673866
>I don't quite know what that character could actually DO outside of being basically uninfluenceable.
You say that as if it isn't more than enough.

Also, Resolve+Composure is used for a lot of rolls, Integrity being a big one. It's also your maximum for how many Extended actions you can take.

>>49673946
If you have Willpower out the ass, you're generally going to be able to get 1 success in situations you normally wouldn't be able to.

>>49673998
>Stealth gear, nanotech, drones, non-supernatural brainwashing drugs, Ai tanks. All this stuff is of conspiracy horror, and they'd be a great addition to Hunter 2e.
That wouldn't be using Status to requisition equipment, that would be Advanced Armoury. There are plenty of things that the game doesnt' stat, though. the game is not mean to be a strict mechanical catalogue of everything that can and does exist. It's a framework for creating the story and giving you something to go off of so that you can make things yourself. Armory was honestly one of my least liked supplements because it felt so unlike a WoD supplement to be filled with fucking tables and tables of barely different equipment lists.

>It's LOW level grunts that actually operate the heavy machinery.
Yes, but when you requisition air support, you're not flying the chopper, you're commanding it.

>can benefit from more comprehensive systems.
Yes, but here from you that just seems to mean "pointless equipment faffery". I also fail to see how Advanced Armoury is "poor". Especially with the Endowment R&D rules, there's plenty to be done.

>>49674022
Just seconding what >>49674066 says.
I wonder if you could take Unnatural Affinity (Human)? Probably not. I'm too lazy to look up the merit, but it probably says supernaturals.

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Asked last night, but how would you run a game like the Defenders shows? Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, [and when it comes out] Iron Fist.

Not necessarily the powers, but the style. Superhuman characters in situations where they're trying to stop shit from going down while not necessarily letting the world shine a light on the fact that they're superhuman.

Then again, hell, I don't think I've ever actually managed to run a story that didn't take place over only a week at most. I can't imagine how to manage it, especially when situations like >>49663201 happen, and superpowered characters can just kill their opposition pretty quickly.

>>49674177
We're just going to have to disagree. I'm of the opinion that rules, especially and specifically when used to differentiate a salient aspect of the genre, is useful.

We could go the other way. Why do Vampires have 30 pages devoted to general 'tricks' and have a sidebar with mechanics about undead menses? Clearly someone thought it was important.

>when you requisition air support, you're not flying the chopper, you're commanding it.
Uh, no. the type of close air support provided by helicopters is, by and large, ordered by trained observers on the ground, not colonels sitting in a room 2,000 miles away.

> I also fail to see how Advanced Armoury is "poor".
Advanced Armory provides lots of neat things like ghost goggles and bullets that can hurt ghosts. Great. That means they're very slightly better at handling some supernatural entities than a regular person. But it's missing generic equipment that TFV agents might have access to that even paramilitary operatives might not. Simple things, like stealth suits (a range from just heat-capturing suits or up to active camouflage tech) are a staple of the genre. And the entire point is that it'd be really nice if those things had canonical mechanics. Anyone can write up some flaff like a +4 stealth-while-moving 4/2 armor suit. But it'd be nice if it were official.

>>49674223
You'd just be a Vampire/Werewolf/Whatever with the morals of a superhero?

I'm not sure what the issue is.

>>49674177
>Unnatural Affinity (Human)?
Nope. Specifies supernaturals specifically. "...allows your character to gain sustenance from one type of supernatural creature". Could be a mage though. There's a few trippy passages about kindred drinking mage blood.

>>49674328
More than likely that is a Vampire/Werewolf/Whatever who TRIES to have the morals of a superhero. Probably failing quite a few times along the way.

>>49674223
Seriously just play the game normally but plat up the superheroing. Make it so they dont have to feed so often so humanity degeneration is low, shit like that.

Have a lot of people done on-the-road campaigns? I remember thinking Midnight Roads was fantastic when I read it

>>49674223
Defend is basically WoD

>>49673985
I can't help but think of nations that can't fund them. Imagine a Rwandan task force armed with machetes, AKs, and led by shamans who are convinced they understand the supernatural. Now I want to play a 3rd world Hunter game where we try to eliminate "walking corpse men" and "witches."

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>>49674314
>I'm of the opinion that rules, especially and specifically when used to differentiate a salient aspect of the genre, is useful.
I'm not disagreeing on that. What we're disagreeing on is what is or isn't salient. And I'm pointing out how the game itself and it's creators feel.

>Uh, no. the type of close air support provided by helicopters is, by and large, ordered by trained observers on the ground, not colonels sitting in a room 2,000 miles away.
Yes, but when you're fighting a secret war, the ground troops aren't going to be able to call in air strikes from the secret black helicopters.
Advanced Armory already covers quite a bit. There's even a UAV and a suit for traveling to other worlds (neither of which I feel is super necessary). The book that exists can't stat out one hundred things.

Also, Undead Menses is a merit for the spooky Goddess cult to do spooky Goddess cult things. Not a sidebar for any and all vampires to do things. Vampires have 30 pages devoted for general tricks because they're a major supernatural template. Taskforce VALKYRIE isn't going to have 30 full pages dedicated to anything.

>>49674328
>>49674684
>>49675205
>>49676025
Actually I was thinking Hunter level characters who have supernatural abilities.
>Not necessarily the powers, but the style.
I don't know how to run a story where things aren't just solved in a single night, and where there's a give and take between the main characters and the criminal element that they're trying to take down. I'm really bad at that kind of thing. Even my longest games never had stories that took place over more than a night or two.

I'm also not sure why people assumed I meant vampires?

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In Requiem, Nosferatu don't have to be disfigured and can have some other defect that makes them be shunned by normies. Does this show up often, barring the stray Caitiff?

>>49676331
A friend once played one who looked normal but his shadow was always twitching and jerking spastically since he was embraced after being electrocuted to death.

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>>49676331
There's no such thing as a Caitiff in Requiem. Not knowing your Sire doesn't suddenly make you look different, which is a super weird thing in the first place.
In 1e, the Nosferatu disfigurement is mechanical; No 10-again and 1s subtract successes, regardless of what you look like. For some of the less hideous Nosferatu, this was fluffed as just being creepy, or uncanny. There's one Bloodline (which in Requiem is an upgrade to your Clan) of Nosferatu who's true form is a hideous wrinkled corpselike monstrosity, but when they've used their unique Discipline--a ritual bath that grants bonuses to Presence--they become gorgeously androgynous and angelic, but still maintain their Clan Curse, (which makes them roll oWoD style).
When the cover of the Nosferatu splatbook looks like this, you can bet that there are still hideous grotesqueries. There were even disfigurement features Nossies could take, like having huge jaws or batlike ears, that came with bonuses. There was also a merit for having a mask of flesh or some other material that you bolted onto your face and it made you magically better at things, and I *think* hide your hideousness somehow?

>>49676331
(I write way too much shit. I doubt you needed all this detail)

In 2e, it's much simpler. There's no more having the cake and eating it too. Physical deformity has nothing to do with being a Nosferatu, though the Bloodlines are all likely to be based on hideousness. The Nosferatu embody fear, which is why Nightmare is their Discipline. They're unsettling in a way that unnerves. Even the nicest and prettiest Nosferatu is still the creepy little girl in a horror movie. Whether she's the monster or not, her presence is still enough to put you on edge. Their Bane is that their Humanity is treated as two points lower for determining social penalties when interacting with muggles.

It's a much better mechanic, and a lot more lenient, especially since it only applies to humans, and doesn't preclude social Nossies. But two points lower means you're always taking penalties once you've dropped Humanity the first time and your Bane comes into play, you're already taking -2 to social. A Nosferatu that hovers at Humanity 5 is going to take -3 to social penalties. A Nosferatu at Humanity 4 (where you're no longer upset by killing people by accident) is going to have -5 in Social penalties. This doesn't apply to your Touchstone, but, well...

>Monstrous (Humanity 2): A monstrous vampire is barely recognizable as human, unless he’s specifically acting the part and using the blush of life. He looks like a moving corpse, with dry flesh tightened over bones and a faint red hue to his eyes. He’s short-tempered, selfish to a fault, and will kill to suit minor interests and petty desires. Not only does he have difficulty dealing with people, he doesn’t want to. Most of the mortals in his life are servants and feeding stock, viewed as resources at best. Take a –5 die penalty on any roll to relate to humans.
You try getting a Touchstone when they think that's how you are.

>>49673338
I played a Galatea Promethean for an early 20th Century Setting campaign (Since I didn't think Unfleshed quite fit it, although it was blurred between the two). In the early post WWI 1900s there was a german Cabaret showgirl that did a traveling show around Europe. After performing back at her home town one raining night, her car crashed off the side of the road and she died.

An older gentlemen that was a fan of her shows and a bit of a crude scientist discovered the car wreck that night and brought her corpse back to his laboratory and spent quite a bit of time trying to put her back together, using corpses of other women to attempt to replace the parts that were no longer workable. Of course by the time he managed to pull all this together skin and flesh were too rotted to be of much use and he didn't want to murder to accomplish bringing her back to life so he made a porcelain cast recreation of her to use as mold to place all the innards into as well as basically replacing her skeleton with metal, gears and moving parts and closing the porcelain cast over it as an exoskeleton that was incredibly mannequin like and she was basically a life-sized windup doll/animatronic. When the spark of life reanimated her, she was given the name Gretel.

Gretel however was "glitchy" and had a bad case of residual memories. She had a bit of an internal clock system, which would go off every midnight. Each time it went off she would blank out and re-enact a performance relevant to a show she did that day of the week, except for the end of the week before repeating the cycle. On Saturdays music would play from inside her and she'd do a robotic windup doll dance and song that she was fully conscious for, much to her horror.

Basically like this scene from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-gpZmcQrx0

>>49676903
That actually sounds like a pretty neat character concept, although the last bit ("and she was fully conscious, much to her horror!") seems a bit unnecessary.

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>>49676903

Of course since there was a Gretel, there was also a Hansel. A Promethean that this creator had made prior, quite a lot more crudely and with a lot more physical problems than Gretel. Was basically a despicable WWI German soldier that died on the field, as a Promethean he kind of looked like Blade from the Puppet Master movies, if he was bigger than a human, had arms that could unfold to double in length and his face could split open vertically.

He wasn't very fond of their creator going around and playing god, or humans in general. It was only a matter of time until Hansel killed their creator and rounded up Gretel and the other created this scientist whipped up and started re-purposing and conditioning them into amnesiac sleeper agents that he would ship off in crates and send over to America.

So the campaign starts with Gretel in a box, being shipped overseas to Chicago, currently in storage at an Irish woodworking store.

>>49677133
Okay now this story is getting weird and sort of going off the rails.

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>>49677006
Fair enough, didn't mean it in much of a shock value, but rather it was a moment she was aware of, where she knew she wasn't normal and fueled motivation of the pilgrimage. She generally had a very oblivious demeanor towards things and it was something even she couldn't ignore. So she wanted to understand what was wrong with herself and why she wasn't like everyone else.

In terms of continuing on with what actually happened to the campaign... it really just turned into a shit show of egos between players. It was a game where everyone brainstormed together and we were going to play bootleggers in Chicago during 1927 and everyone had an integral important role to the game.

Seriously not even 15 minutes in and we already have one playing nearly shooting another player dead on their first in character meeting. Gunfire alerting pinkertons that were chasing the boozemaker and finding Gretel in a crate thinking that this shit went deeper and human trafficking was involved. Another player that is currently running a speak easy, without any knowledge of anything going on, meta-games his way over to the crime scene, lies about being a secret undercover cop to the pinkertons and tells them to check out a hidden bar he found (He literally sells out his bar to them to try to get them to get away and leave the crime scene to him). He only goes to grab the booze runner that is a mage and meta-knowledges demanding him to work for him for all eternity for busting him out of that situation (It doesn't work).

The game kept on going but it just kept on going further and further apart and no player could keep themselves allied with anyone else. Gretel essentially did an entire story arc in the background of what became a messy game of cops and robbers.

I could go on about what happened with it, but it's getting late over here. Maybe I could continue it tomorrow if anyone's interested.

Here's what Gretel looked like as well. (Illustrated it myself a couple years back)

>>49677215
Sorry man, it's gotten late and I can't really focus on explaining a narrative.

Question about demesnes. Can I use a demesne to cast a spell paradox free even if it's not aligned to my path? (e.g. Using a matter demesne to cast a high reach healing spell)

As I understand the rules I can't use it for an environmental yantra.

With Halloween coming up I was thinking about trying to rope some friends who have no experience with WoD into a one shot on the night, complete with spooky music and candles.

Problem is I'm kinda stumped on the actual plot.
I was thinking a handful of premade characters on a bus that breaks down in the middle of nowhere in the dead of night, the only building around being an old decrepit house that may or may not belong to a serial killer who may or may not have died and returned as a vengeful spirit.

I could use some help because at the moment that's the extent of it, I'm not sure of a win condition for the PCs that doesn't turn it from tense horror to 'find the shotgun in the attic and shoot the monster'.

>>49677407
I had the same idea although I was hoping to go for a Vampire game instead of mortals. Unfortunately, I have no idea about plot and there are very few premade adventures for the system.

To help a bit I would say that desperately searching for a weapon can be tense with them having to run about the attic, foyer, bedroom, or wherever else there might be a gunrack. Then tell them that the ghost is unsurprisingly unaffected by the blast of buckshot.

The main thing is to think of your spooky mystery and clues for how to defeat the monster ahead of time, but be prepared to reward whatever your players' knee-jerk reaction is. After they've shot/stabbed/thrown furniture at the monster maybe have it be enough for it's manifestation to break apart... for now. After that they have to figure out how to permanently get rid of it and then the tension can build as they investigate and plan all while the spirit is clearly growing more powerful with spookier shit happening (bigger objects thrown at them, progressively more disturbing hallucinations) and they don't know at what point it will be strong enough to attack them again.

>>49676513
I read "twitching and jerking spastically" and pictured the shadow having Tourette's and making fapping gestures and inopportune times.

>>49673604
Boy you sure sound fun to play with.

Here's my obligatory request for the final PDF of Mage 2e that incorporates the errata and index? Thanks.


Thanks.

>>49673912
I think they mention it's a NATO initiative, yes?

>>49671178
You still take compromises, but you also just can't do some stuff while you're in one, like you're not allowed to make gadgets at all.

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Im probably insane or dreamt it but I could have sworn there was a bit on how to make arrisen from later periods that never visited Irem in one of the Mummy the Curse Books. But I cant find it. Anyone know where it exists, if it even does?

This is kinda unrelated, but since it's White Wolf...

Is there anywhere on /tg/ I can get advice for about Abberant, a superhero game produced by White Wolf? Essentially, my DM is saying (and he's not the banterous type) "Don't fuck about or mess anything up, or I'll set (insert god-level being who can steal your powers and vaporize you in an instant) on you."

You can't stack style merits can you?

You can't combine Brute Force with Martial Arts in order to perform a falling pillar for lethal damage because they are both style merits?

So Im playing A Thyrsus lumberjack and he's a single father and is very close to his tomboyish teenage daughter. How do I seperate my mage life and family life? I'm the only one she's got since her mother/my wife died.

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In oWoD mage what are the most widespread of mage orders? As far as I can tell the two largest are the Dreamspeakers and the Brotherhood.
Dreamspeakers because any sort of mystical shaman is absorbed into their order, and the Brotherhood spread everywhere Buddhism showed up.

>>49680479
>How do I seperate my mage life and family life?
Simple, don't tell anyone from either life about the other one.
If you can, cast a simple 2-dot Life spell to look like someone else when interacting in your Mystic life.

>>49671999
Not a colossal amount of work, since I wrote it to be half-way to 2e anyway at the time. The combat system largely works off 2e's as it is, for example.

It definitely needs some overall tidying up and tweaks, though.

>>49680637
Or...wear a mask.
Maybe pump it up with platonic form. That way people see your identity as the mask.

Does clothing hide promethean disfigurements?

>>49681535
Depends how intense they are and if they include your face.

>>49679473
It doesn't. All arisen come from the rite of return performed by the shan'iatu in Irem in a once in a forever miracle of magic that metaphysically can't be done again.

>>49679834
Yes, you can stack style merits but there's some rules.
1. No stacking merits that reduce or remove defense
2. it has to make sense, I'm not super sure of names but I remember one of my Hunter players stacked two maneuvers, one that let him slam someone to the ground with a grapple instead of actually initiating it and one that let him basically peoples elbow someone on the ground and do more damage(the attack became rote, but you ended up on the ground), he wanted to stack them and I said sure.
3. obviously, it has to be within reason and the ST has to say "Yes, this works". Generally speaking, it helps to work with your ST ahead of combat to figure out "Hey, I wanna do something with the various maneuvers I have that will be some cool SHIT".

Also on a related note, are you talking about stacking the "Your hands do lethal" with falling pillar? Because that isn't actually a maneuver, it's just kinda....a bonus to having that many dots in the merit, and in general I'd probably argue that it applies to most unarmed damage(maybe not very particular ones like chokehold, obviously.)

>>49682269
I'm not sure i'd agree, anon. Disfigurement is pretty intense, and it's not like it's something that you see with perfect clarity. When your disfigurement flares(at least in 2e) it's something that happens almost instantly, just long enough for them to see something "wrong", but not even necessarily to say "Oh shit that's a FUCKING MONSTER" immediately.

>>49681535
>>49682269
>>49682329

I'd imagine that clothing can hide a bit of it, but of course can't do anything for a promethean's possibly irregular or uneven silhouette and of course won't really anything for parts that aren't covered. At very least enough for people to know something is wrong if they are paying attention. It's sort of the kind of thing that sticks in someone's mind after seeing it.

At least when I was playing the earlier mentioned Gretel, any time her disfigurements came up people could see her porcelain doll face and her robotic jointed limbs.

Does the gangrel clan weakness seem excessively severe to anyone else?

A player had his resist frenzy rolls drop from twelve dice to six in one humanity loss.

>>49682954
I find it completely irrelevant, myself. Since it doesn't apply to Riding the Wave.

>>49681535
That's not letting your freak flag fly, fampai.

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Does anybody know of any PBP or weekly over voice HTV or B:TP games anywhere? I cant seem to find any open online games of either splat.
Beast seems particularly unpopular.

>>49681535

Only in the sense that clothes cover up part of a person's body. If you wanted complete concealment of Disfigurements, your Promethean would have to be in a full zentai suit or something, which wouldn't really help them stay hidden in any way.

>>49681535
>>49683897
https://youtu.be/1h9zO39x8Qo

>>49683935

You're probably going to have to organize those yourself, unfortunately. HtV is beloved but almost a decade old, and Beast is too new for regular games. It's the same issue but for completely opposite reasons.

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>>49684022
I wanna run a Vtr/Hunter/Beast crossover game set in Dallas but I simply dont have the time or know how to properly support a PBP game.

My long running v20 pbp is dying hard because apparently our lead ST just disappeared into the night.

I'm highly interested in being a Storyteller for a WoD game bit I've never seriously ran a game of any system before, just played. Do any of you have advice for a fledgling storyteller or stories about great stuff you pulled off?

>>49678550
There's errata?

>>49684269
>because apparently our lead ST just disappeared into the night.
Just one more resolved masquerade breach

Does the player get to decide the object for Titan's Throw or is it literally the nearest object regardless of their ability to even lift it.

So would the promethean try to throw, say, the twelve-tonne construction vehicle two feet to his left rather than the cement mixer three feet to his right?

I find it humorous that of all the possible situations that would need clarification they spend half a page describing what happens if two Werewolves get into a 'condense or expand' fight.

>>49684519
Seconding this. Fairly new to GMing too, but really want to try a CofD game.

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How did Vampires come to form societies? I don't think they have anything to gain by associating with each other. Manpower can be gained through ghouls or by embracing humans; blood bond ensures you get a reliable servant, as compared to some random vampire wildcard off the street. Any vampire will sooner or later realize that it is in their own interest to stay out of the public eye due to the potential threats from various supernatural factions that could be considered their equals, including other vampires; those that don't grasp this concept soon enough most likely end up dying, and if done so by human hands, their abnormal existence justified in a way that makes sense to the humans, in other words, a "big vampire hunt" is hardly a possibility. The only thing I can see being gained from interaction with other non-blood bonded vampires is the quick power boost that comes from diablerie. It's pretty easy to imagine gangs forming for the sole purpose of absorbing those stronger than them, though again, this can be done by embracing several people so that they don't try to turn on you right away.

I feel like diablerie really throws the believability of an organized vampire society down the gutter. Elder or not, why would you willingly run the risk of getting worse-than-killed by a bunch of wimps that you haven't embraced personally? You'd think those elders would be the ones to prey on young vampires for even more power, but apparently not, they'd rather paint themselves as targets by trying to strongarm the handful of people left in the world that are capable of killing them.

>>49685752
Because of ther ancient ones. They can only feed on other vampires to sustain their existence. So you set up a situation where they have to band together to survive.

And then you eat them.

>>49685779
Feeding on other vamps 3 times creates a blood bond, so any elder vampires time befoe torpor must be strictly limited

>>49685299
And what does it say?

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>>49673073
>>49673589
I just don't buy the concept of werewolves being Captain Planet dogs. There is no way in hell something as big, hungry, intelligent, and aggressive could ever be ecologically friendly.

>>49686171
They're meant to be the defenders of Gaia, essentially the apex predators that cull any threats.

>>49682954
>>49683140
>it doesn't apply to Riding the Wave.
This is the point.
Gangrel are all about giving into the Frenzy. They can't do it any other way.

That's why it's so good.

>>49686226
I don't buy that either. Nature doesn't give two fucks about who does what and here. Where was Gaia during the Permian when damn near everything on earth died? Why didn't she call up her planeteers to stop the K-T asteroid? Why didn't she wipe out humans during the pleistocene? Is prehistory just a lie and the earth is really 5000 years old or some shit? Does nothing exist outside the solar system? Why don't other planets have spirits? Why doesn't the galaxy have a spirit? Is the concept of astronomy and physics a lie by the technocracy to hide that everything is actually magic pixie dust? If not, what the fuck would Gaia do were another asteroid top show up, or even a black hole? What the fuck would she do if there were a gamma ray burst to hi the earth? Are gamma rays a lie? Why didn't Gaia send her planeteers to kill the vampires back in ancient times? Why does a nature spirit not adhere to the laws of "survival of the fittest"? Why are werewolves not a threat when their capacity for destruction is far greater than that of humanity or even vampires?

Isn't there some sort of flaw in the hengeyokai books where you can constantly have kids without needing sex? (Like sharing a drink and other things like that) I think it's for either the weresnakes or weredragons...
Would it be magical realm-y to make a character or group with that flaw?

>>49686484
Eww.

>>49686470
I feel like most of those questions are pretty stupid because they assume that Gaia's scope MUST cover literally anything and everything even space death rays. Also, who says other planets don't have spirits?

Gaia isn't exactly sitting on a throne giving orders or something. Werewolves also have tried to take out vampires, that doesn't mean they can succeed.

I mean, I think Apocalypse is stupid as fuck, but these are silly questions, when you could be asking questions like "how does the Garou Nation not realize that literally all of its tactics and methods are fucking incompetent, and that fighting a spirit of corruption and destruction by doing nothing but destroying shit and murdering people isn't really all that useful?"

>>49686595
>that doesn't mean they can succeed.
Given the power gap, I wonder why they haven't.

>>49686528
Hm I thought that would be the reaction I would get.

>>49685752
A long time ago when humans developed cities, vampires developed a hierarchy that allowed them to be rulers. Diablerie was common then, because it allowed you to steal your victim's power.

Eventually one vampire got too powerful, and while everyone thought they would just depose him and have a new ruler when he went into torpor, he never did. He just kept diabolizing Kindred.

There was a love triangle, and vengeance, and a vampire member of a vampire cult sought out a method to defeat the lord. And seven spirits came down into the body of a vampire and animated him.

He strode forth to the city of the lord, and when the lord heard of him insisted he be brought forward. He was, and the lord found it impossible to resist the temptation of diablerie, drinking the trap dry.

When he did so, the seven spirits entered the soul of the lord and burst forth, destroying him and seeking seven new vampires to inhabit. They were unable to resist the compelled desire to commit diablerie and more and more of these cursed vampire spirits spread.

That's why there's a ban against diablerie.

>>49685752
>I feel like diablerie really throws the believability of an organized vampire society down the gutter. Elder or not, why would you willingly run the risk of getting worse-than-killed by a bunch of wimps that you haven't embraced personally? You'd think those elders would be the ones to prey on young vampires for even more power, but apparently not, they'd rather paint themselves as targets by trying to strongarm the handful of people left in the world that are capable of killing them.
There's a reason most Princes aren't elders. Elders don't like the limelight. They do feed on lesser vampires (they need to) but elders mostly sit behind the scenes and manipulate. They let younger vampires take the spotlight.

>>49686484
>Would it be magical realm-y to make a character or group with that flaw?
Meh, to each his own. It might be a bit gamey, as pregnancy is a Condition and thus you could farm it for beats.

>>49687421
I don't think that explains why vampires form societies.

>>49676297
>when you're fighting a secret war, the ground troops aren't going to be able to call in air strikes from the secret black helicopters.
Why not? It's effective against the vast majority of non-major templates and it's easy as fuck to cover it up to the general public when brainwashing drugs are already a fairly effective science available to TFV (p.155) (and if it kills the witnesses, all the better). Or you could assume that a more brutal world like CofD is akin to real-world Brazil, where you have that stuff in broad daylight anyway.

Advanced Armory already has truck-mounted lightning cannons. If you think that draws less attention than a helicopter gunship, then clearly something is terribly wrong.

I always figured that Vampires form societies because they're ultimately social predators. No better way to learn how to prey on one than by forming one.

>>49687421
>A long time ago when humans developed cities, vampires developed a hierarchy that allowed them to be rulers
See, this is why this sort of speculation hurts suspension of disbelief.

That sentence alone is super suspect. How is that possible? Tribal population sizes during the agricultural revolution were demonstrably small, and even the largest population centers 3 or 4,000 years into the shift from nomadic to sedentary life still didn't cross 10,000 people, at most. And almost invariably the earliest settlements contained no public buildings; everything was a domestic residence (even though labor specialization had existed long before then) so an individual's well being and activities were well known to everyone (Also, tangentially, the Lock-related issue).

How could vampire society develop with such low herd numbers and essentially everyone in society being aware of everyone's activities?

>>49680479
Take on a Shadow Name it helps separate the two. Invest in Shadow Name Merit

>>49687838
>See, this is why this sort of speculation hurts suspension of disbelief.
>That sentence alone is super suspect. How is that possible? Tribal population sizes during the agricultural revolution were demonstrably small, and even the largest population centers 3 or 4,000 years into the shift from nomadic to sedentary life still didn't cross 10,000 people, at most. And almost invariably the earliest settlements contained no public buildings; everything was a domestic residence (even though labor specialization had existed long before then) so an individual's well being and activities were well known to everyone (Also, tangentially, the Lock-related issue).
>WHEN HUMANS DEVELOPED CITIES
you're talking about villages
this is ~3000 BCE when full fledged cities exist with thousands of people
and among those people were rulers

before that vampires just roamed around and didn't live long

man why is vtr so gay

>>49688031
Implying vampires aren't parasites with delusions of grandeur.

>>49688102
actually i made the parasite connection pretty obvious

>>49685752
What? Elders literally have to drink vampire blood to survive

>>49688031
>this is ~3000 BCE when full fledged cities exist with thousands of people
But that is not when humans "developed" cities. Proto-Cities (that is, lacking either/or centralized rule or planning) had been developed for a good 3 to 4,000 years before, and within that time period what you or I would consider Cities had developed.

By the time ~3,000 BCE rolls around, full-fledged cities had been around for a long time, and certainly wouldn't be considered a period in which cities were being "developed" as a novel idea, anymore than we would say that modern cities are in the process of being "developed".

In other words, it'd be more reasonable to say, "vampires developed a hierarchy after or alongside increasing returns on agricultural produce due to economies of scale and the development of language and law". That'd be more sensible, if a bit drier for most people, I suppose.

>>49688131
i was being cheeky.

why do I even play wod games all these settings are dumb

Can you enforce a shadow name on someone else? a character might announce himself as Arthur but other people insultingly refer to him as Quijote, would that win out?

Should a sleepwalker be able to have a shadow name and benefit from the shadowname merit? The protege of a mage named Mentor becoming telemachus and gaining the protections of the merit would be kind of interesting

>>49688031
>>WHEN HUMANS DEVELOPED CITIES
>you're talking about villages
This, basically.

Vampires didn't have the centralized numbers to form societies until people did. A vampire couldn't Embrace a whole village, mechanically. But in a city a vampire who has learned to hide its activities from those who put down the dead can teach their childer how to hide their activities. Eventually someone breaks from the herd or a new vampire comes on and you need to establish some rules.

It's the same way humanity did, but with humans instead of other resources like water, farmland and animals. You learn to share or risk them coming after you.

>>49688202
>Can you enforce a shadow name on someone else? a character might announce himself as Arthur but other people insultingly refer to him as Quijote, would that win out?
yes
>Should a sleepwalker be able to have a shadow name and benefit from the shadowname merit? The protege of a mage named Mentor becoming telemachus and gaining the protections of the merit would be kind of interesting
no, no supernal connection

>>49688228
>>Should a sleepwalker be able to have a shadow name and benefit from the shadowname merit? The protege of a mage named Mentor becoming telemachus and gaining the protections of the merit would be kind of interesting
>no, no supernal connection
Well. Just having a nickname sort of obscures your true name. But the Merit has a prerequisite of Awakened.

>>49688202
You could have an exception depending on the ST.

>>49685752
Vampires are still social animals thanks to the remnants of their Humanity.

Their Beast is a fundamentally solitary predator-creature, but it's in conflict with the MAn.

Of course, this has also resulted in Vampire "societies" being so fucked up that just joining a Covenant is a Humanity break.

>>49686171
They're not. They had one of several jobs (namely, DESTROY THREATS), and then they committed repeated instances of genocide against the changing breeds with other jobs, and now they're trying to pick up the slack (very poorly, mind you, since they were never designed for it, and their entire suite of tools is still designed around RIP AND TEAR).

Would it be reasonable for a city to develop a symbiotic relationship between the Vampire and Werewolf governments along the lines of 'Vampires keep the Pure out in exchange for Werewolves keeping out the Owls'?

My group wants to run a mixed chronicle and that's my basic idea for how it would work, just with the players as the sort of U.N. Peacekeepers of this union.

I swear to god one of them is going to want to change his character to Promethean too and I'll have to solve that shit also.

>>49688685
>Vampire and Werewolf governments
If such a thing actually EXISTED, perhaps.

>>49688685
>Would it be reasonable for a city to develop a symbiotic relationship between the Vampire and Werewolf governments along the lines of 'Vampires keep the Pure out in exchange for Werewolves keeping out the Owls'?
Sure, but that specific one would be hard. Vampires wouldn't be able to keep the Pure out, and werewolves trying to keep out owls will just lead to stirge-possessed werewolves.

>>49688717
Vampires do have governments. Prince, Sheriffs, etc.

Werewolves not so much, although Protectorates exist now.

>>49688728
>Werewolves not so much, although Protectorates exist now.
Even without protectorates (which can act as city governments) packs usually have some agreements between each other and some packs are more powerful and influential than others.

But a protectorate would be more like an "official" werewolf city government (if they were in a city, like in Bristol).

>>49688728
Eh, I've played in such a campaign, and I've got to say it was boring as fucking hell.

It restrains your ability to seek out new and interesting things, you're constantly having to worry about stepping on literally everyone's toes, you're usually far too weak to actually be trusted with everything, either nobody wants to help you, or their help ends up rendering your actions pointless, the mixture of various game lines causes essentially every splat-conflict to come to the forefront, or be disregarded for the sake of the game.

I mean, there are good reasons why there are almost no examples of such endeavours in the various source materials.

Plus neither faction as the tools to adequately solve each other's problems
I mean, none of them are Mages.

>>49688727
Vampires could back up Werewolves in really useful ways against the Pure, probably the most direct would be Vampire kill squads with silver weapons to assassinate Pure leaders

This is even ignoring that Vampires scale so much better than Werewolves.
You figure that the average Hound is BP3 and has access to way more potent combat dread powers than an equivalent Werewolf.

>>49688806
>Vampires could back up Werewolves in really useful ways against the Pure, probably the most direct would be Vampire kill squads with silver weapons to assassinate Pure leaders

Except during the day. And silver weapons are something werewolves could use. But vampires have no way to protect against the Fire-Touched leading a charge of helions and fire spirits through the Shadow.

>>49687819
Vampires form societies because they're lonely. Anything else is bullshit.

They'd rather be in the tank with the other vipers than out on their own.

>>49688828
Sure they do. Turn into mist and run away. Don't have Protean or the right Coils to help fireproof yourself? Sucks to be you!

>>49689047
Sunlight turns Primal Miasma back to human form, and you can still be damaged by fire while in it. Plus you move at half your speed.

>>49689088
I was talking about the fire spirits and fire magic. Yeah, nothing short of having all the dots in the Coil of the Ascendant and probably having invented some new coils of your own will help you in daylight. I figured turning into mist and running away would be solid to flee though, maybe depends on if you can slip out through an air vent or something rather than being exposed in the open.

>>49688828
Is 'Frenzy and tear the Fire-Touched in half with more dice than he could ever hope to get' a valid defense?

Do Helions even like the Pure? And I'm pretty sure that any Fire-touched powerful enough to boss around conceptual spirits would be somewhere near the top of the "Kill this person" list.

Tell me about your mixed games.

>>49688133
Is that a thing in Requiem 2e still? Cause i know it is in 1e, but it's not unless you have a specific flaw, in masquerade.

>>49689342
Turner and Hooch but Hooch was sometimes a person.

>>49689354
Still a thing in 2e

>>49689342
Pretty fun but due to so many splat types there's massive theme dilution so I don't think anyone is quite getting the full spooky/ennnui theme exploration they want but we sit somewhere between a vampire chronicle and supernatural Hardy Boys so it has been enjoyable enough for me.

>>49689370
It is, however I think elders also are now immune to making new blood bonds via feeding unless they drink from a higher BP vampire, though old ones don't immediately fade.

>>49689377
Eh, horror is what you make of it.

Personally I feel that after a few Chronicles the baked in horror elements get old.
Yeah yeah, I'm a monster that sucks blood and I can't see my family and I have to take a discipline to menstruate, same basic ideas repeated every chronicle.

At least with having no obvious themes to use you can get creative.
Fuck it, Aliens are attacking the city and turning people into space-ship soup fuel, pissing off the spirits and making it hard to find hobos to suck, go get 'em boys.

>>49686595
> "how does the Garou Nation not realize that literally all of its tactics and methods are fucking incompetent, and that fighting a spirit of corruption and destruction by doing nothing but destroying shit and murdering people isn't really all that useful?"
That's the point desu. Garou are primarily the culprits of their current situation by the means of lack of hindsight.
Every problem can be traced to some stupid decision their ancestor took without thinking of the possible consequences:
>Let's do some Impergum to teach thos stupid humans to respect their fucking place--> humans now relied in the gifts of the Weaver plus Delirium
>Lets show this stupid changing breeds how you should run things---> 3 changing breeds go extinct including the one that could help you make babies (now enjoy your lack of numbers) and the one that could clean the earth (enjoy your massive pollution)
>Hurr Durr let's battle the Wyrm without keeping the Weaver in check --> you know the drill
The point is, you are suffering the mistakes of your precursors and in turn your decisions will affect your descendants, and just like using the Planet resources without care will not give you huge problems in the near future that doesn't mean it won't have grave and life ending repercussions long after you die.

>>49689470
>Personally I feel that after a few Chronicles the baked in horror elements get old.
This is my second game of it ever though, and I'm not playing the same splat I was before. Same for most of us, we're all doing new things to take advantage of the insane mixed party. I think we'd respond better if the GM wasn't prone to massive sandboxes and just would do more focused storylines. This next month or so will focus on the vampire and mortal, the one after that is for the werewolf and mummy/cultist.

Instead we wind up with a lot of ongoing plots we're working on, some of which do have good resonance for individuals but we never finish one off in a focused few sessions so much as kind of cycle around. That's just GM style differences I guess though.

>>49689600
This isn't to say it isn't fun, but how I think thematics would be better able to come through in the game despite our highly varied group.

>>49689248
>Is 'Frenzy and tear the Fire-Touched in half with more dice than he could ever hope to get' a valid defense?
it wouldn't be possible, werewolves can get more dice out of character generation, and with a spirit/totem you have a lot more dice than either can do

>And I'm pretty sure that any Fire-touched powerful enough to boss around conceptual spirits would be somewhere near the top of the "Kill this person" list.
the sun's not a concept, either is fire
but fire-touched have an advantage with spirits and spirits like them and tend to do what they want
and anyone can boss around a conceptual spirit it doesn't take anything specil

white rooming is stupid but at least know what you're talking about if you're going to do it

>>49689578
>The point is, you are suffering the mistakes of your precursors and in turn your decisions will affect your descendants, and just like using the Planet resources without care will not give you huge problems in the near future that doesn't mean it won't have grave and life ending repercussions long after you die.
this
yes, garou suck, but it's because they've got a nasty history behind them and its up to players to (if they want) change it

>>49689578
Which is why it's unfun and uninteresting to play characters who are doing nothing to change that and who are part of organizations doing nothing to change that.

>>49689705
>Which is why it's unfun and uninteresting to play characters who are doing nothing to change that and who are part of organizations doing nothing to change that.
thats what the players are supposed to be doing though

>>49689619
This isn't whiterooming, it's saying that kindred can help Forsaken take on the Pure in different ways.

The fact that a particular caste of the Pure have a particular ability that 'counters' vampires isn't damaging to the idea as a whole.

You could just as easily turn it around and say 'But the Fire-touched have no defense from having their heads blown off in pitch-black night from 2000 yards by a sniper who can sprint away with celerity'.

But the Pure isn't entirely composed of Fire-touched and the Kindred aren't composed entirely of snipers, so I guess the Predator Kings and the Gangrel are going to have to get into a knife fight at some point and ruin this precarious chess game.

>>49689748
>The fact that a particular caste of the Pure have a particular ability that 'counters' vampires isn't damaging to the idea as a whole.
so do the others, though
an ivory claw's sacred hunt lets them identify members of the target's community
all you have to do is hunt one vampire and you can recognize everyone in that vampire's domain

>You could just as easily turn it around and say 'But the Fire-touched have no defense from having their heads blown off in pitch-black night from 2000 yards by a sniper who can sprint away with celerity'.
except they do

>>49689748
They all have one huge advantage. They can enter the Shadow, vampires can't without a werewolf helping them. And they can only get back out of it with a werewolf hunting them.

>>49689705
Well, to continue my post:

Usually Garou could be this stupid because in the meantime they were fighting their own internal power wars for the best territories, kinkfolk and caerns. After all, they have a strong tribal way of living so they usually put their own tribes first, and the rest could fuck of as they weren't as good (the theme of otherness).
The scenery in Apocalypses changes this because now you are force to work with Garou of other tribes because, you know, there aren't many Garous left in the entire world (the killing of the Apis--> lack of babies I mentioned earlier) so now the player characters are forced to interact with other tribes and ways of thinking, this is what actually sparks the ways of change.
Remember, the closer the tribe the worst their current state (Red Talons, Wendigo, Black Furies) only by changing and mending the mistakes of your forefathers can you even move forward (to the fucking Apocalypse, but hey, is not an optimistic game)

>>49689718
>>49689806
Except usually they aren't. In fact, the whole game seems geared towards doing the same shit: Raiding Pentex and murdering the fuck out of things. Even the modern factions are just shitty and pants-on-head incompetent. The ones that aren't (Glasswalkers, Children of Gaia) are treated as losers, not just by other Garou, but by the books themselves.

>>49689748
>>49689785
Do the Firetouched even have it in with Fire spirits or Helions in the first place? Their schtick is disease.
>an ivory claw's sacred hunt lets them identify members of the target's community
>all you have to do is hunt one vampire and you can recognize everyone in that vampire's domain
That's... not quite what it means, I'm pretty sure. It's more along the lines of knowing their social connections. Like, if two vampires have never met, they're not going to ping to an Ivory Claw's Siskur-dah just because they're both Vampires. Community doesn't mean demographic.

>>49689799
Two.
Werewolves can operate freely during daytime.

>>49689820
>Do the Firetouched even have it in with Fire spirits or Helions in the first place? Their schtick is disease.
they have an in with all spirits
it's fire and disease and madness and religion
they're the ones who like using fire to burn the auspice scars out
>That's... not quite what it means, I'm pretty sure. It's more along the lines of knowing their social connections. Like, if two vampires have never met, they're not going to ping to an Ivory Claw's Siskur-dah just because they're both Vampires. Community doesn't mean demographic.
i didn't say demographic
if you're part of the same domain and obey the prince and go to elysium you're part of the same community.
no it wouldn't work if you targeted some vampire no one knows about (unless they were related to a vampire you were hunting, cuz it trakcs bloodlines)

>>49689820
Really? That's the impression the book gave you?

I've read all books from 2 edition onward, including revised and 20th and my conclusion was that the point of the game is try to stop repeating the same bullshit.
I usually let the cubs and Cliath enjoy busting shit and breaking things just to show them is like trying to empty the sea with a cup. If they want to fix things, at least a little, they need to re-think how they do things and they need to make the rest of the Garou nation understand why they will suffer am horrific fate unless they start changing their ways now.

The best book to get this feeling in my opinion is the Book of the Wyrm (revised and 20th), and a good damn read in my opinion.

>>49689785
And all the vampire clans have powers that also work perfectly well on Werewolves, what's your point?

The description doesn't have to explicitly say 'Also works against werewolves' in order for a Gangrel to slice one open for Aggravated with claws of the unholy.

>>49689799
'Allied with the Forsaken' rather implies that Werewolves might be helping them, no?

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>>49689820

>>49689926
>And all the vampire clans have powers that also work perfectly well on Werewolves, what's your point?
that vampires are a shit ally to have against werewolves
>'Allied with the Forsaken' rather implies that Werewolves might be helping them, no?
especially when you are werewolves who couldbe doing it on your own

>>49689953
I expected the Wyrm to be more dragon like than tentacle monster.

>>49689926
What you're proposing is this.
>Vampires, protect us against the Pure. They outnumber us, are more fierce and murderous and savage than us, and have more allies in the spirit world. When the Pure come (hopefully at night or else this is pointless), we will take you into another world, since we're the only way to get there, and you will fight along our side against them. And hopefully some of us will survive to bring you back to this world.
>In exchange, we'll try and protect you against this rare enemy you will never likely meet and most of you don't even believe in. And no we don't have any protection against being possessed by them.

Does this sound like a good deal?

>>49689991
Only a small portion can get out without breaking reality.
IIRC only Eater-of-Souls ever came close and he was pretty dragon-like

>>49689905
I read the corebook and the Glasswalker Tribebook when I was going to join a game, along with seeing snippets and the way other people talk. The Garou Nation's way of doing things seems so engrained in the game, and trying to go against it is treated as disgracing your ancestors. Not to mention the game seems to focus so heavily on the fighting and the killing and not so much on the figuring out how to stop the Wyrm's growth without feeding it.

And all the players treat it as this Norse blood opera as you charge into the jaws of Ragnarok.

>>49689953
I can't even tell what's going on in this comic.

>>49690039
>I can't even tell what's going on in this comic.
It's from the core book you read. It's showing that all it takes is one strong willed werewolf to turn the tides and make up for past mistakes. To unite werewolves and defeat their (true) enemy.

This has always been the point of apocalypse. It gets drowned out in writing because most of it is from biased, in character views. But all you have to do is look at "established dickery" and know it's a "punk" game to know the point is to overthrow the established dickery.

>>49690039

It's essentially a cosmic pep-talk, and a way of W20 to say "Hey the apocalypse isn't as much of a done deal as you thought and the Wyrm isn't guaranteed a win, go rip and tear until it is vanquished". This is in keeping with the 20th Anniversary's Time of Judgement-free approach to the setting.

>>49690039
>trying to go against it is treated as disgracing your ancestors
Yes, but that's why PC are the always the exception, is up to the DM if they have a chance to make things right or fail in the most dramatic of ways
>I can't even tell what's going on in this comic.
Is the 20th Anniversary comic that opens the possibility in the game to change the Apocalypse. The wolf there sees a new sing of the Phoenix prophesy that says that if they don't give up they might still have a chance, for a more optimistic gameplay.

>>49689996
The Pure being more dangerous than the Forsaken is a moot point when Vampires are more dangerous than both of them by the time they hit 3 experience.
The Pure fucking around in the shadow is a moot point because of that little bit where they sometimes have to come out of the shadow where they have the minor problem of getting torn in half by monsters way more dangerous than them.
And yes, vampires could quite reasonably do all this for dubious protection against the enemy that is so fearsome to them that they routinely kill people who see them in case that person was who the Strix were after.

You're literally basing this argument on Kindred knowing fuck all about the Strix and not thinking 'Oh yeah, a shadow spirit, those guys down the street are always fucking around with spirits'

>>49690099
>bait
You're wrong.
>You're literally basing this argument on Kindred knowing fuck all about the Strix and not thinking 'Oh yeah, a shadow spirit, those guys down the street are always fucking around with spirits'
Strix aren't spirits or ephemera, werewolves have no special abilities to deal with them except for the summoning of fire. If the vampires knew anything about strix, or werewolves, they'd know this.

>>49690139
To be honest, if I were a vampire looking for help outside of the Kindred to deal with Strix and the local lupines had some kind of cease fire with our local government, I'd give them a try if SUDDENLY STRIX because in character those fuckers look super spiritlike and if the werewolves aren't hiding being spirit experts I'd go to them.

Now it won't work because Strix are something totally different, but you live and learn and probably trade highly valuable places of power to animals do that learning.

>>49690139
>If the vampires knew anything about Strix
Which they explicitly don't
The vampires don't have a fucking copy of the rulebook telling them all the secrets of their mysterious archnemeses

>>49690243
>Which they explicitly don't
Then agreeing to die alongside werewolves is a pretty stupid fucking idea. The strix are just myths to kindred.

Like all 'lol invincible' enemies, Striges are shit storytelling devices and you're a bad storyteller if you even consider using them.

If you're going to ally Werewolves and Vampires in your setting just do it for mundane reasons. Vampires want to go into the forest to drain some badgers instead of people, and Werewolves want territory with Loci in them that are otherwise unremarkable to Vampires.

Wow, you've managed to create a community without dragging one side into the others apocalyptic blood war, crazy.

>>49687838
It has been estimated that the human population of 6000 B.C. was about five million people.
The City founded by Caine, Ubar, is a real place that has been found. It was a major trade hub more than 5000 years ago, during the same time as the Akkadian an Sumerian empires.
If even a fourth of the world population was centered in any of the trade route cities combined (which seems likely enough) that's still more than a million people.
When you throw in breeder ghouls who could survive any disease from a potentially massive vampire population (even 1000 or 10,000 would be huge, but realistically 100 or less), the number of people living in the city of Caine could be well above the norm. No archaeological evidence suggesting a higher population at the time would be normal in a world where vampires actually ruled the world.

>>49690319
exactly.
shit they both want to keep the masquerade, it could just be about that
the strix/pure thing is stupid, there's so many other reasons it could happen

An army of Furies marching over the plains obliterating their foes with bolts of Divine Lightning.

Platoons of Storm Lords behind them to heal their injuries with lightning strikes and extinguish the firestorms with torrents of rain.

None can stand against the might of the least lore-friendly alliance of all time.

>>49690469
>None can stand against the might of the least lore-friendly alliance of all time.
That isn't Arisen and Shuankhsen/Deceived

>>49690088
>It's from the core book you read
Not the one I read. Or at least I don't remember it. I remember a lot of bad writing about some guy getting given the business by some dude with a spear talking up how the end of the world is at hand.

>>49690093
Then I definitely didn't read it, as I didn't read W20, I used the previous corebook.

>>49690094
Maybe W20 is less shit. But I still don't like a lot of other shit about the setting, and I'd rather have Tribes that weren't dumb as opposed to Tribes that are dumb because I'm supposed to overcome it.

>>49690039
>trying to go against it is treated as disgracing your ancestors.
Considering your ancestors personally ruined fucking everything, why is this bad?

Hi, /wodg/

I have something to ask of you.

I'm gonna be playing a short term VDA campaign with pre-made characters. All I know is that characters are ghouls to a Cappadocian.

I've never played a ghoul before. Any inspiratory stories to tell?

>>49690319
>>49690402
>Like all 'lol invincible' enemies, Striges are shit storytelling devices and you're a bad storyteller if you even consider using them.
Maybe you just suck

>>49691078
Because in-game your current peers will hate you and ostracize or murder you.

>>49688841
Try humans and embracing.

>>49690671
>and I'd rather have Tribes that weren't dumb as opposed to Tribes that are dumb because I'm supposed to overcome it.

Then i suggest another RPG company than Onyx Wolf, White Path or whatever they call themselves this days.

>>49694384

It's strange to me that no one managed to successfully make a WoD Clone after 20 years or so. Even something like Fading Suns, which is related to WoD only in developers and spirit, didn't manage to become as popular.

>>49689953
>GOOD OLD MAGICAL NATIVE AMERICANS!

>>49690099
>Vampires are more dangerous than both of them by the time they hit 3 experience
Kek.
Are you joking? Average werewolf slices through average vampire as knife through butter. You have to have combat specialising vampire at > 5 BP to have a chance against werewolf combat specialist.

>>49690319
Except they're not invincible, unless your players' only recourse to every enemy is LEEEEEEROY JENKINS physical assaults.

>>49694911
You have high hopes Anon, you must not be a ST. I sadly count on the full moon, going full werewolf by his second turn, and staying that way till the fight ends.

>>49695319
No, I'm a Forever ST. I just have players that do research when weird shit happens, go around and ask questions, and do tests and mystical research and such in order to help suss out things. Of course, I'm also running vampire-specific games (OWoD right now, but the plan for next is a Requiem 2e game), so YMMV on my experience vs. yours.

>>49692345
Enjoy playing with corpses. Necromancers love corpses.

>>49695451
Well if you want to give your players information that they canonically cannot have, that's your business.

But the entire literary purpose of the Strix is to establish the horror of having an enemy you can't defeat, not to get your players noodles boiling about how they're gonna set up some intricate plan to defeat an invincible enemy.

>>49695789
except the fact some information is known. like fire can kill them.

>>49694384
Or I could stick with nWoD.

first requiem novel pdf in the mega is incomplete

>>49670198
See if this were Trinity or something I would think mechanics for that were more important. But for wod I don't see a problem with saying 'if you get hit head on with a helicopter you just die'

>>49697240

I think it's the exact same file copy from the great big Demonoid nWoD torrent that used to be the most popular way to pirate the books. A Hunger Like Fire's file was incomplete even there.

Superjail warden is actually a most succesfull gentry, who can capture not only one, but thousands human any time,and not only teenagers, but actually fully grown criminals

>>49691078
Because not every wolf becomes an ancestor, only the most powerful, heroic or crazy usually do.
While most Garou return to Gaia when they die (and a strange minority becomes Wraiths because reasons I guess) only an exceptional portion still stick around to help and orientate the cubs.
Sure, they fuck up, but collectively, is like trying to blame every German for the debacle it was WW2, it just doesn't work like that, the stupid decisions are usually done by the people in charge and in a very peculiar context.
That said, the is a fatal flaw to the Garou: they are very, very tied to their ranks, you respect the dude above and in turn you are respected by the ones below you. Is very hard for them to defied their leader as they have a strong pack hierarchy sense. The only one that can freely do it is the Ragabash and is usually looked with disdain because of that (and the Book of Auspice does indicate that the final nights see less and less Ragabash being born) but otherwise is hard for a common Garou to try to defied their leader without a fucking good reason.

>>49696899

implying the tribes in forsaken arent dumb.

>>49697996

>and a strange minority becomes Wraiths because reasons I guess

Most likely because Wraith was partially pitched as a game you could play if your Vampire, Werewolf, or Mage died. This didn't really last long.

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They say that Hunter: The Vigil is very poorly writed. Is that true?
And if yes, can I run a game just reading CofD and Mortal Remains?

>>49698417
I haven't heard that said much, where are you getting that from?

>>49680530
I believe the largest is the Order of Hermes.

>>49698504
Maybe I don't talk with a lot of people, but just my friends and some randoms at my discord.

>>49698417
>poorly writed
lol

To answer your question, no I haven't heard that. As with any WoD book there's fluff that can be debated in how stupid it is, but mechanically it's fine.

And yes, Mortal Remains is intended to be a rules update to allow the game to be run in CofD so as long as you have the Hunter corebook to convert from you'll be fine. I haven't done it myself, but that's how it's advertised.

>>49698069
Not like the Garou Nation.
I quite like the Tribes in Forsaken. Even the ones I like least are likeable, especially in 2e, where they all have purposes and goals, as opposed to just cliches.

>>49698243
Was it? I know there was an April Fools prank that Geist was going to be that.

>>49698417
Hunter is the best gameline. You also probably could run a game using just the CofD book and Mortal Remains, yeah. Hunter as a gameline is the one that's least in need of a corebook, and it's corebook is essentially a bunch of different ways to play. If you don't want to use Conspiracies or Compacts, you don't really need Hunter itself, especially with how 2e has monster creation rules (which are better mechanically than the ones in Hunter and Mortal Remains).

>>49699370
Worth noting that you'd need Mortal Remains *and* the GMC Rules Update.

>>49697940
Who then sends out his relentless robotic Huntsman to drag you back.
Never realizing that his jail is the most horrifying place imaginable, believing it to be a place of wonders as a result of having been warped into Gentry by his OWN Keeper.
His two toadies, and his jail, all aspects of himself as well.

>>49688366
So it's like a Maid campaign where you have to make Master a cake but the entire party is only good at magical lasers!

>>49677407
Basically doing the same thing as this poster. A couple of my players are super into Stranger Things so I'd like to play to that while also subverting it. Is God-Machine Chronicle a good choice?

Is World of Darkness a gateway drug to communism? I ask only because DaveB got me to read the communist manifesto, and this Karl guy's got a lot of solid ideas

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>>49701322
>lot of solid ideas
That's all it'll ever be.
We are our own worst enemy.

Apart from vampires.
Fuck vampires.

>>49698417
>poorly writed
am you of are to being of speak the english

>>49701322
Looks like you got pozzed by Dave.

>>49701928
Not him, but I'm pretty sure it has more to do with sovereign power not wanting to give itself up. Marx also advocated Communism as a transition to Socialism, but frankly I think that's unnecessary and that we could achieve Democratic Socialism without it. Political anarchy of the (left-)Libertarian Socialist stripe seems appealing as well, and Anarcho-Syndicalism worked in Spain for a while, until Fascism destroyed it.
I mean, let's be honest here, human nature has changed quite a bit since the time of Feudalism and cavemen. The ways in which we relate to each other are different and so are the ways in which we see and think about the world. Of Darkness.

>>49702836
>human nature has changed quite a bit since the time of Feudalism and cavemen
Human society has changed.
Not human nature.

>>49702850
Human nurture has changed.

>>49702878
In other news, water is wet.

>>49702910
You changed, man

You used to be cool

>>49702910
>water is wet.
Bullshit, I want an independent board of testers in to confirm that.

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>>49702836
Whatever your parents paid for your partial college education, they should ask for their money back.

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>>49703241
>lookit all this ideology

anyway, back to more important questions like: i hate Defense, I hate unarmed Defense style, and i hate werewolves with 11 defense.

>>49703270
Then find some way to get around it.

>>49703270
Use guns with silver bullets. Guns bypass defense barring specific magic powers, which even then don't give the full amount (barring powers from werewolf I don't know about so far). Light 'em up, yo

>>49703310
werewolves apply their defense against firearms in every form except hishu.

>>49703296
it's bothersome cuz i, personally, am not good at creating twinked-out combat monsters, not as good as my players anyway, and im extremely concerned that the upcoming battle with the older, more established pack that they've been harassing/have been harassed by will come out with the Primal Urge 1 babbies winning against the big old guys without breaking a sweat & it'll feel really flat & undramatic.

>>49703270
>Implying that Marxism *sniff* is itself not an ideology.*sniff*
>Posts a meme *sniff* philosopher that typifies the man-child that cannot take responsibility for anything.

It's like you're trying to make my argument for me.

>>49703270
What, you don't like to have to spend willpower and essence/vitae/pyros every single time you attack in order to get a statistical single success?

>>49703391
>it's bothersome cuz i, personally, am not good at creating twinked-out combat monsters
Option 1: Shoot him
Option 2: Hit him when he doesn't know you're there
Option 3: Shoot him when he doesn't know you're there
Option 4: Find a non-lethal, non-violent solution
Option 5: Use a method of assault he can't Dodge, such as Spirits
Option 6: Find some way to temporarily cripple his legs to decrease his Defence
Option 7: Dog-pile him
Option 8: Ignore the unhittable chump, and fuck up his friends
Option 9: Let him have his jollies, and have him save the Pack

Is Yuri Kuma Arashi some sort of Beast campaign?

>>49703490
bud, i hate to break it to you but im not actually here to argue the virtues of marxism on the Tabletop Roleplaying Game discussion board. also im not the guy who wrote the rambling paragraph about democratic socialism or whatever

>>49703270
>anyway, back to more important questions like: i hate Defense, I hate unarmed Defense style, and i hate werewolves with 11 defense.
not a question
>>49703391
>it's bothersome cuz i, personally, am not good at creating twinked-out combat monsters, not as good as my players anyway, and im extremely concerned that the upcoming battle with the older, more established pack that they've been harassing/have been harassed by will come out with the Primal Urge 1 babbies winning against the big old guys without breaking a sweat & it'll feel really flat & undramatic.

spirits using blast don't do it against defense
1 essence to activate, roll for success, successes = damage
average rank 3 spirit has ~10 dice
can spend essence up to rank to add damage (equivilent to adding successes)

a totem can do this
meanwhile, older more experienced pack can hit them too

>>49702910
Oh come on, that was clever.

>>49703517
I don't really see why this is a problem, though. It means fights are protracted and grueling affairs where people are getting tired out. It's not like Willpower is hard to get.

>>49703270
What's wrong with Unarmed Defense Style?
Also: Use the lesser of Athletics or Brawl.

>>49703391
Just give the antagonists six dice over whatever the highest Defense is.

>>49703738
>Also: Use the lesser of Athletics or Brawl.
>change rules of entire game for one fight
>make pcs stats pointless

>>49703738
The problem is that combat in 2e is retarded and the most effective melee weapon is a fucking handgun.

Defense does nothing but make the most suboptimal form of combat even worse.

>>49703818
you sound like you should be playing a fantasy game where guns haven't been invented and taken over as the best weapon

>>49703818

You say that like pistol-whipping isn't the most devastating melee move.

>>49703872
or like people can stab/hit as fast as a bullet can fire

>>49703844
Instead of a fantasy game about being a sparkly vampire or powerful werewolf?

>>49703917
if you have a problem with vampires and powerful werewolves yes

>>49703925
If only all those vampire and werewolf powers weren't completely invalidated by firearms, am I right?

>>49703391
>werewolves apply their defense against firearms in every form except hishu.
Well fuck that, bombs it is.

>>49703391
>werewolves apply their defense against firearms in every form except hishu.

And the werewolf player in my game was complaining about my playing a mummy.

>>49703975
>a mummy.
they didn't in 1e, its a 2e change

>>49703994
I was making a joke about mummy overt power really. We're using a 2e update and at the moment I'm playing a mortal cultist anyway since the mummy is in henet.

>>49703565
useful suggestions. i was thinking of bringing in the enemy pack's totem, real no-holds barred shit.

My character is an archer. Will defense still work on arrows shot?

>>49704444
im not sure if there's rules in-book on this but my group's generally declared that only beings that apply defense against firearms apply defense against arrows.

>>49703771
I meant in general, not for that one fight. And chances are your PCs will have both of those stats, but that will still make their Defense slightly lower.

>>49703818
I honestly don't see why guns should be worse just so that punching people is easier. I'd rather punching people get more options, which it does in the form of Fighting Styles.

>>49703951
They aren't. Vampires barely take damage from firearms and can do just as much if not more damage with their fists (and words). Werewolves can dodge bullets and shrug off crippling amounts of damage.

>>49704444
In 1e, arrows were fucking deadly. Dexterity + Athletics + Strength + Arrowhead.

Is Changeling 2e out yet?

>>49704444
>quint 4
Nice

>>49703607
Then don't reply for the fucking moron.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

>>49704640
Hell no.

>>49704615
>In 1e, arrows were fucking deadly.
Well yeah. You're likely a supernatural powerhouse firing gigantic fucking sharpened logs with a strength much in excess of a normal human.
Compare that to a bullet.

Hey so I'm wondering if its alright to make this merits available to all people. what do you guys think?

Driven (• to •••••)
Prerequisite: Promethean
Effect: Every single one of the Created carries a shred of hope that things might someday be different. This hope drives Prometheans forward on their Pilgrimages and urges them toward complete humanity. Your character’s Elpis is the warm glow of wisdom that helps her find the right path.
Every game session, you have access to a number of free Conditions equal to your character’s Driven dots. These Conditions reflect insights your character has received to help her along her path toward a Milestone. Informed and Inspired are common Driven Conditions, but any appropriate Conditions could apply. Additionally, the Storyteller may call on this Merit to give a Driven Condition if she feels it’s fitting, or that it would help refocus your character.

>>49704757
I'd limit it to one condition specified when taken, if not a Promethean.

>>49704659
Huh?

Are there arrow rules for 2e?

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>>49704681
/k/ here!

Bullets still win. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRbAfdoU9vY

So check it out. The rule with ammo is that speed kills and this is why rifle rounds are so much deadlier despite being lighter. A .45 ACP round in it's default loading weighs 230 grains. A 5.56 mm round, as used by the US military, weighs in at a feather-light 62 grains. However, that .45 ACP round will be travelling at ~830 fps while the 5.56 mm round will be travelling at ~3200 FPS out of a 20 inch barrel. A round that light will fragment in the wound above a certain velocity. This is the much vaunted "energy dump" that causes raw soft tissue shock. So, while much lighter, the tiny 5.56 round is measurably more lethal than the fat, heavy .45 ACP round. Refer to the video and note that that's ballistic gelatin designed to mimic the soft tissues of the body.

What does this have to do with Archery? Think of a big ass Arrow as a .45 ACP round on steroids. A super strong werewolf or vampire with a high draw weight bow can only dream of approaching the velocities of the humble .45 ACP and speed kills. No matter how strong they are, the bullet is still king.

Unless there's something at work like, I don't know, fucking magic?

>>49704956
>Unless there's something at work like, I don't know, fucking magic?
Well yeah.
It's Chronicles of Darkness.

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>>49705043
So an enchanted item of some sort. But just a big fucking bow?

Not even close.

>>49704956
An arrow is almost always twice as large as a bullet, and designed to literally stab someone from far, far away.
I can imagine that someone stronger than any human has ever been pulling back an arrow and letting it loose with the speed of a bullet, it would do some damage.

Although none of that really matters. It's the mechanics that matter.
Dex ●●● + Firearms ●●● + Specialty + 2 from the gun.
Versus
Dex ●●● + Firearms ●●● + Specialty + Strength ●●● + 2 from the arrow

And of course as a Werewolf that's a bonus to Strength (wasn't there a Dex bonus in 1e?).
Add in Willpower and I was pushing 11 or so dice to shoot someone. The idea was to take a -5 targeting penalty and aim for the heart.

Though I suppose a rifle is a more accurate comparison, and the M1 Garand was stupid in 1e, and gave +5 and 8-Again.

>>49705059
Fair enough.
Forces 3 can double the speed of a projectile for each level of potency.

>>49705077
Archery is Athletics

What is the general power ranking for the different nWoD splats? I'm going to run a Mage game soon and want to know what they could reasonably take on. My players don't really optimize or abuse mechanis so I don't expect too many shenanigans.

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>>49705107
Not in CofD.

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Man, after playing some Arkham City again, I really want to go back to that Gotham TV series inspired CofD thing. I had wanted to use it for a Werewolf game, but that fell through, and I've been too ADD to run a game since then.

But I kind of want to go through and make Gotham for the Chronicles of Darkness, and flesh out the city enough that people could set their game there...

>>49705107
>>49705123
Archery as Athletics was an option in 1e, though not a requirement.
That said, I had meant Athletics. That's what my character in that example used.

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>>49705077
Rifles are ridiculously more accurate.

As for being twice as heavy as a bullet? What kind. If you found an exploit to make a bow more deadly, well then congratulations.

As for accuracy? Close only counts in horse-shoes and hand grenades. Guns have actual sights. Bows are mainly guess work.

>>49705123
Then why does the mage 2e rulebook have Archery as an Athletics specialty?

AthleticsAthletics reflects a broad category of physical training and ability. It covers sports, and basic physical tasks such as running, jumping, dodging threats, and climbing. It also determines a character’s ability with Aimed spells and thrown weapons, and factors into Defense.Sample actions: Acrobatics (Dexterity + Athletics, instant ac-tion), Climbing (Strength + Athletics, extended action), Foot chase (Stamina + Athletics, contested action), Jumping (Strength + Athletics, instant action, one foot vertically per success)Suggested equipment: Athletic Shoes (+1), Rope (+1)Specialties: Acrobatics, Aimed Spells, Archery, Climbing, Jumping, Parkour, Swimming, Throwing

>>49705169
Because they cannot into quality.

What book can I find mexhanics for bow and arrow for 2e? Mortal Remains?

>>49705148
Are you being intentionally obtuse?

>>49705201
Note that in the Mage book Firearms doesnt have the same blurb for bows and crossbows

>>49705217
I get that.
However I'm still not inclined to let people decide "oh, I'll just use bows" and thus avoid an entire primary combat skill.

Athletics already feeds straight into Defence, gives MUCH in-game utility, and now is what you run your main combat wepaon off?

That's a bit too much.

>>49705316
So if you run a mage game with the rule book which is completely only thing you need to play and the book clearly says that its an Athletics specialty you will reject RAW?

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>>49705215
No. I'm being informed. You're being obtuse. Here's a redneck with a steel point arrow and 200 lb. draw weight.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci56-IC0U2c

Note that it does not penetrate soft kevlar, to say nothing of ballistic plates.

Here's a mechanically activated crossbow with a 400 lb. draw weight. It can propel a bolt at speeds of 345 FPS. This is NOTHING close to the velocity of our humble, sluggish .45 ACP round.

Again, speed kills. It's not the action of "Stabbing" or whatever, it's a function of how much damage that the projectile does to the tissue that it never touches and, when taking this into account, we find that rifles are king, handguns are queen and shotguns are fucking Guts from Berserk.

Again, I refer you to... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRbAfdoU9vY

You could magic up a bow on the fly or through complicated rituals but why fucking bother when you can get one of these slavic ingenuity?

>>49705104
Why use complicated magic when you can use a gun with a suppressor?

>>49705377
Maybe your character has no acess or training with a gun. You are Olympic archer and you Awakened to Obrimos so you increase your bolts velocity to firearms levels

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>>49705418
Pistols are an order or magnitude more easy to use than a bow. Rifles are an order of magnitude more easy to use than a pistol. If you're an olympic archer, then that's one thing. You'll be practicing and competing under ideal conditions. Combat is the furthest thing from an ideal condition that you can find. If you're using bows, then you are intentionally gimping yourself for reasons not related to practicality.

Here's the world's most powerful crossbow versus a cinderblock. And then there's a bog standard rifle in a caliber that approximates the performance of our humble .45 ACP. (.300 blackout in a subsonic loading.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0hz19k917Q

>>49705493
It's almost like this is a fantasy game

>>49705377
No, you're being obtuse. First off, >>49705148 this post is all about the accuracy of a real life rifle despite the fact that we're talking about the mechanics of a system where both bow and rifle are equally accurate.

Second off, you keep talking about what real life weapons can do when we're talking about fucking 8 foot tall muscular superhuman werewolves can do. We're talking 400 to 650 pounds of draw strength on a compound bow without trying.

>>49705493
You keep going on about crossbows going into cinderblocks and bulletproof vests, but we're talking about broadheads going through flesh at even higher draw weights.
Because, again, this is a fantasy game with fucking werewolves and vampires.
Actually, with vampires, you can get even further thanks to Vigor and Physical Intensity.

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>>49705506
>It's almost like this is a fantasy game
It is! And I graciously accept your admission of defeat.

It's also a fantasy game that is set in the modern world and deals with the real world effects of mundane weapons upon mortals as well as supernaturals. They at least make an attempt at a realistic portrayal.

If you don't believe me, check out the oWoD Vampire Storyteller's Companion. This is one of the best real-world firearms references ever written for an RPG though it is not without it's flaws..
>.pdf related

That being said, it's strictly a function of physics. Here's the factory specs on the world's strongest crossbow.

http://crossbows.armsrack.com/l/101/Scorpyd-SLP-165

You can get 160 foot-pounds out of that bow. A 5.56 round from an M16 gets you over 1300 foot pounds of force.

>>49705578
Actually, accuracy is an after thought. I'm not being obtuse but merely defending my position against counterarguments from an opponent who would make an ad hominem attack.

Even given parity of accuracy (which is laughable and a failure on the part of developers), such a bow that can equal the ballistics of a rifle without magical aid would be truly unwieldy and has none of the mechanical advantage that a rifle does.

A you cannot knock another arrow without losing your point of aim. A rifle does not suffer from this limitation.

An archer must perform a complete reload with each shot. A rifleman does not suffer from this limitation.

A fully automatic rifle can continue to place rounds within a small area as long as the trigger is depressed and both WoD and CofD have rules to reflect this.

Even if you have a bow under perfect circumstances, a gun is still superior. These are the tremendous forces at work that we're talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfDoQwIAaXg

Look, bows are obsolete for a reason. Even if you up the power behind them and add in a few enchantments, unless they do aggravated damage, it's meaningless.

>>49705737
>It is! And I graciously accept your admission of defeat.
No one can win at this. You aren't even participating in the same discussion anyone else is.
The world's strongest crossbow means nothing. It's unrelated to this argument. Fuck, this is literally a discussion about the mechanics of a roleplaying game.

>A you cannot knock another arrow without losing your point of aim.
You can in this game!
>a gun is still superior.
Not when the bow is being used by a Werewolf, which exist in this game!
> Even if you up the power behind them and add in a few enchantments, unless they do aggravated damage, it's meaningless.
Not in this roleplaying game!

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>>49705773
>Fuck, this is literally a discussion about the mechanics of a roleplaying game.

And I argue that the mechanics do not match the focus of the game. There exists, also, a slew of reasons as to why a modern firearm is the superior option related to narrative logic. Most notably ease of availability, the compactness and lightness of the ammunition, the superior range (even when wielded by a werewolf, they could not hope to put the raw force into play that a rifle can.) and the fact that MECHANICALLY and within the PUBLISHED RULES of the GAME ITSELF, range, rate and concealability will be inferior to a firearm without complicated magical aid that makes a competitive bow both rare and too valuable to be risked.

If you lose your AR15, you head down to your local Cabela's/Sportsman's warehouse/Bass Pro/Gander Mountain and pick up another one and you're off to the races.

Even from a strictly mechanical standpoint, guns are superior in all of the ways not directly related to damage.

>>49705493
more drill sarges

>>49705818
Pulling up Armory.

A Compound Bow does Strength+1 damage, and broadhead arrows add +1 damage and Armour Piercing 2 against soft armour (but -2 damage to armoured targets).
So for a Strength 4 Dalu, that's +6 damage.

Also, there are plenty of reasons that carrying a fucking AR15 in a city would be bad. At least a bow is silent. And now you've moved the goalposts to "is still better due to range and rate of fire and doesn't need to be custom made and and..." when the original thing is that a fucking werewolf using a bow and arrow isn't exactly unreasonable.
Although I will admit, this wasn't a city, it was the country. A rifle would have had advantages for my character, it's true, but the sheer dice bonus of a bow and arrow on top of the cool factor is more than enough for me.

>>49705209
Hurt locker spoilers.

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>>49705869
I never argued that it was unreasonable. I argued that the concealability of an AR15 or an underfolding AK47 such as...
>pic related
Is much better than that of a Dalu, which, I might add, will still raise suspicion and isn't nearly as concealable. In fact, the AK is barely two feet long and can be hidden under a long coat. Oh, and it has 29 bullets in the magazine. Bullets that can be purchased at any gun store or aforementioned big-box outfitter rather than being custom made by a craftsman or the character themselves at tremendous expense or resources or time.

Additionally, that rifle can be suppressed. Particularly an AK that can swap muzzle devices in the field with the operator's fingers.

Avada Kedavara, meet Avtomat Kalashnikova.

And you'll be doing 7+ damage.

Which splats can have a regular life? Hold a normal job, go clubbing on the weekend, have a boyfriend they kind of resent for being more successful than them.

The sort of stuff a Demon pretends to do, but for real?

>>49705869
You've been awful quiet, captain autismo.

>>49689342
Started out as street level mystery. Turned into Gurren Lagann.

Does anyone run nWoD games for cash?

>>49706023
Most minor splats.

>>49703818
>The problem is that combat in 2e is retarded and the most effective melee weapon is a fucking handgun.
Eh? Source, pls.

>>49704875
I think they will be in Hurt Locker. So far there is only a crossbow which is mechanically same as guns except it takes three turns to reload and can be used to deliver a stake.
In Dark Eras an archery is as a skill virtually same as firearms. Same rules and all, just renaming the skill.
Stats of bows depends on era, for instance in Neolith.
>Bows: Damage is equal to minimum Strength, most bows
>are Strength 2 but those of especially proficient archers may
>be Strength 3. Penalties for insufficient Strength are doubled.
>A bow’s short range is equal to the archer’s (Strength + Size
>+ Athletics) x 3. A character can only fire once per round
>without the use of Merits or magic, and “reloading” takes
>one action. The stone arrowheads the People use break off
>in flesh, but are insufficient against armor — add one to the
>bow’s damage rating against unarmored beings, and reduce
>damage by –2 against hard structures or armored targets.

>>49706113
No. If you want to run games for money, it will be D&D and You'll be running games for people that need to pay to play D&D. It will be a whole table of that guys.

Have fun with that.

>Source: I run D&D for people that have been kicked out of EVERY group in the area.

>>49706023
>Which splats can have a regular life? Hold a normal job, go clubbing on the weekend, have a boyfriend they kind of resent for being more successful than them.

Mages.

I am new to the cofd and a little bit confused about rules. It is stated that in an unlikely case when a player rolls zero successes along with a 1 on a dice, storyteller have to present said player a choice of either to leave things as they are or pick a "dramatic failure" option in exchange for a Beat. It is said, that this option serve the purpose of giving a kick to your game.
Now, I am a little bit confused by the word "option" here. Almost every action or supernatural ability have a description of a "dramatic failure" which makes it look like something less of an option and more like "do it anyway". Which makes perfect sense for a horror game.
So, should I force a massive fuck ups when we have a 1 on a dice and if not then why?

>>49705316
>However I'm still not inclined to let people decide "oh, I'll just use bows" and thus avoid an entire primary combat skill.
>Athletics already feeds straight into Defence, gives MUCH in-game utility, and now is what you run your main combat wepaon off?
>That's a bit too much.

Athletics was always a godstat in NWoD, a knife thrower being one of the most XP efficient combat builts.

Now in 2ed is even more, personally i group bows and throwing into firearms.

>>49706143
Because you don't apply your opponents defense to ranged attacks from any range, including melee, and because handguns aren't large enough to cause penalties in melee, a character with a handgun is going to be rolling more dice than a brawl/melee character.

>>49707691
> Because you don't apply your opponents defense to ranged attacks from any range, including melee, and because handguns aren't large enough to cause penalties in melee, a character with a handgun is going to be rolling more dice than a brawl/melee character.

Well, you are right, but gun>sword was always a thing for mobs. From the other hand, you can't say what you sad about a trained person with a weapon fighting style, right? And that's how it should be.

>>49707206
If a character rolls a 1 on a chance die they dramatically fail.

Players can also choose to turn a normal failure into a dramatic failure once per scene, in exchange for a beat.

>>49707763
Hmm? Trained martial artists are even worse for other melee characters because their defense is just going to be higher, exacerbating the problem and not doing anything to hinder firearms characters.

>>49706929
No, they really can't.
They can pretend, but they know the truth, and their mystic life is always there.
Peripheral Mage Sight buzzing away whenever anything supernatural happens in their proximity.

>>49707206
Dramatic failure are an option for players to take, risk with chance dice, or possibly something to force with supernatural powers.

Players should want to risk taking a Dramatic Failure for the beat (and likely condition, which may give even more). If you force them upon people, then they won't want to do this.

Failure is usually bad enough.

>>49706071
It's called "sleeping". Although honestly I don't care to argue with you.
Also, isn't the autistic thing to start quoting facts and figures and going into obsessive detail about something while failing to understand what the other party is saying? I mean, you're even going on about what's more mechanically viable.

>>49707829
Unless they are a supernatural. A werewolf in most forms get's to use their defense against firearms. A vampire with 1 dot of Celerity does too. A mage with 2 dots of life can too.

>>49706113
>>49706541
My friend is a paid GM and does a lot of CofD games. I think he's doing Mage and Exalted.

>>49707206
>It is stated that in an unlikely case when a player rolls zero successes along with a 1 on a dice
No, Dramatic Failure is rolling a 1 when you have less than 0 dice in the action, which means you roll one die and only succeed on a ten. This is called rolling a chance die.

You can choose to take a Dramatic Failure (because in 2e they realized that rolling them naturally is unlikely) if you fail normally, once per scene.

>>49707865
I wish they found a more natural way to do Dramatic Failures. Or lessened them from being "and then you take aggravated damage", as many of them are.

>>49707455
This is another reason I like "lesser of Athletics or Brawl".

>>49707829
What?
He's saying characters with Fighting Styles are going to be better off than characters without. A guy with a Fighting Style can beat a guy with a gun.

>>49708036
>He's saying characters with Fighting Styles are going to be better off than characters without. A guy with a Fighting Style can beat a guy with a gun.
Woops

I'd still argue that would still be a tossup, unless that fighting style was grappling.

Jackie Chan with weapon finesse isn't going to be doing more damage than an equivalently built gunman, and he sure isn't going to land strength + brawl vs defense.

>>49705773
>Not when the bow is being used by a Werewolf, which exist in this game!
Back the fuck up. Bows are designed with draw weights, and these don't scale to infinity. A human drawing a 180 pound bow and a werewolf drawing that same bow produce the exact same potential energy; if the werewolf pulls harder, either the bow shatters, or it doesn't shatter but the excess energy deforms the bow and thus you get enormous marginal losses.

Obviously that isn't represented in the game, but the problem is the original assumption way back in:
>>49705077
>I can imagine that someone stronger than any human has ever been pulling back an arrow
This simply doesn't conform to reality

>>49708103
Getting passed Defense isn't some impossible task, and just because someone has guns doesn't mean they're going to have a high Defense.

Cheap Shot lets you ignore Defense, Martial Arts decreases targeting penalties, CQC lets you avoid gunfire...

Hell, there's a Fighting Style for Carthians in Secrets of the Covenant that's something like "roll double your dice pool and knock someone on their ass and get three extra damage, but lose your next turn".

>>49707982
>A mage with 2 dots of life can too.
Fate, Space, or Time 2. Not Life.
(Though combining Life Armor with the Acceleration spell gives you the best of both worlds)

>>49708194
>In this world werewolves exist
>They have societies and culture
>They can use bows and arrows
>But it's unreasonable for them to have custom made bows
>???
I think the bow was made with a minimum strength of 4.

>>49708201
Is isn't impossible, it's just less effective, requires dots in merits, and involves supernatural templates.

So you spend more and get less for... what, exactly?

This wouldn't even bother me if the extra damage guns did was because of the baked in damage, but it's just because firearm characters basically get 3-6 free dice against anybody even modestly trained for combat.