How do I approach the problem of social combat. Players asking

>>49561410
So your problem is that players are asking NPCs questions that the NPC doesn't know the answer to? I'm just trying to clarify

>>49561410
If you're playing with assburgers or murderhobos, just let them roll for everything

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>>49561607
Sorry should have clarified.

>The party arrived at a pirate port/bay.
>The party then asked the Captain they were traveling with, where he stays while in port.

He motions to the ship, "Have little need fo' anywhere else."

>The party asks if there are any taverns to drink at.

"Look aroun', just pick up a bottle and start drinkin'", The port is a wash of booze, bodies, coin and fights. "There isnt a place much like that here, gets robbed too often."

>Party gets mad, asks the captain the same questions in different fashions.
>It doesnt go anywhere, so they walk off in a huff.

Few more times this happens throughout the sesh. After it, one of the players was feeling pretty shitty about the social stuff. I said maybe you have to think about other things to ask, what if you asked for the Cap to introduce you to his contacts on the port?

>Player "OMG limit the questions to specific things?! This is why we can never get anything done."

Me, "ah well...no, you just have to ask the right things, a man cant tell you where a road is if he has never been on it, but he might be able to tell you where to find local carriage services"

>Player, "thats far too complicated and spcific."

Is he right, should I have hand held their way through the social stuff?

>>49561701

I don't want to be rude to your real life friends, so I'll say this:
They sure need to learn the correct definition of specific.
With what you can do? I would tell you to tell them to ask more questions, not the same one that's slightly worded differently. If they complain again, just say "it might be easier than you think."

>>49561701
>Is he right, should I have hand held their way through the social stuff?

Fuck no, sounds like an entitled little shit if anything. Let's say someone needs medical attention, and they ask where a hospital is to (enter bumpkin NPC here) his response will likely be wut.jpg.

Sounds like your players expect a minimap, a 100% completed world map, and precise indicators where the closest objective is. Just keep doing it like you have been and if they have a problem tell them to use s fraction of their nonexistent critical thinking skills. If you give them an inch they will take a fucking mile.

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>>49561832
>>49561895
Thanks for the support guys, i'll keep this in mind.

>>49561895
This though, they are a little bit, well some are.

I have been trying to be more stern with my play style and rulings, since I play with a large party. I try to keep things flowing, just social stuff always comes to a stand still.

>>49561701
>The party then asked the Captain they were traveling with, where he stays while in port.
>The party asks if there are any taverns to drink at.
They are trying to engage in your setting and fish for plothooks. Why are you blowing them off?

>I said maybe you have to think about other things to ask, what if you asked for the Cap to introduce you to his contacts on the port?
Yeaah and any sort of a tavern wouldn't get in on that contact list, riight.
Does he also restrict his crew to stewing on the ship? Does he not know where to fish them out next morning?


Also you could do some more talk with the players to meet them midway on the specifity of questions. Ask them what are they looking for - tips to find some work? (That would segue into contacts.) Or just a meaningless place to rest the night.

>>49562083
Unless you ask the exact thing DM expects you to ask, there will be no progress! Because word-hunt in 80' adventure games was so fun!

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>>49562083
There are no taverns in this place, as I explained, no inns. The place is literally a pool of crap. Everything is everywhere and anything is up for grabs. Anything goes and its all chaos.

They did find a place to rest easy enough.

>>49562150
Well if you keep asking where the captain sleeps and nothing more, how is else is he (I) supposed to know to answer? He sleeps on the ship.

>>49562033
>since I play with a large party. I try to keep things flowing, just social stuff always comes to a stand still.

I GM a large group as well and this usually sees social encounters being dominated by one or two people as the others merely play to KILL, MAIM, BURN or are so horrible at it that they've stopped attempting to make events happen by negotiation, intimidation, or persuasion.

But there's just not anything that you can really do with that. Just try to make social encounters less frequent but more substantial I guess.

Like for that one example maybe try
>party gets to dock and drops anchor
>captain introduces players to town/city/village/whatever
>before they have a chance to ask anything captain immediately continues after into with "Now I've gotta see the dockmaster, little scabber owes me a few favors and he's a slippery one. We take off in (x days) if you need another ferry, if not we'll see ya round."
>starts his way in some direction
>player attempts to ask something
>"Youre a big lad ain't ch'ya? Find it yourself."

Then depending on passive perceptions and investigations throughout the town, or if they simply ask a LOCAL where shit is opposed to some sea captain, say what they have found, learned, and/or heard as they went for a walk around town.

Taking time for each individual conversation can potentially last ten minutes to near half an hour so attempt to dodge them at any chance you can until it is with someone of actual importance.

>>49562083
>Yeaah and any sort of a tavern wouldn't get in on that contact list, riight.

Read the entire OP before posting. Otherwise you look like a total jackass.

>>49562248
>Everything is everywhere and anything is up for grabs.
Then what fucking contacts does the guy have?

>>49562248
I think it would be pretty normal for him to interpret that question as "where should WE go to sleep," and make recommendations, even if they're based on rumors or what his crew do.

Your players are being narrowminded little shits, yes. But do you want them to get your plot hooks, or do you want to challenge them to a game of "Guess What I'm Thinking" knowing full well they're terrible at it?

>>49562248
Maybe. I'm just angry at obtuse NPCs, they serve only to make me want to *BLAM* them and DM to act smug.

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>>49562261
Thanks man. I actually did introduce them to the Dock Master when they first arrived in the port, the party didnt get the plot bait. I dropped it several more times, before one of the players paid a random whore to tell them who runs the port. Followed by a symphony of "ohhhh".

Apart from that, thats a pretty spot on description for my party too. There's 4 fighters, 2 druids, a lock, a pally, a bard and a ranger.

>>49562295
Dock Master, that controls all. Sorry I didnt mention that to start.

>>49561410
i would suggest talking to them about it out of game but if you really want them to stop have them get thoroughly fucked over when they try this and even kill some PCs

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>>49562362
They have already made enemies doing this and made most of the port aware of what they are looking for, thus making it harder for them to obtain. So yeah I do plan on keeping that sort of thing in line. You talk shit to the wrong person, you might suddenly find yourself in the wrong part of the neighborhood. I think thats pretty fair.

>>49562295
There might be some VIP who runs a band near some building/monument of note, maybe one is a mentally is turned but rather hilarious and eccentric homeless dude, or maybe his contact isn't even in this specific town. But regardless of what it is, to just throw a tantrum and give up after "there's no taverns here" is stupid. The next question would more than likely be "well shit, got a tip on areas/people of interest?" (Flip them a gold coin). Simple

>>49562308
Plot hooks don't require a verbatim invitation from a captain. A decent DM should be more than able to improvise another hook if the original wasn't taken, assuming the captain did infact have it. Have the group simply walk around the town, as at least one player would instead of brooding at the docks, and numerous ways to introduce the quest pops up.

I don't know what the quest was in this do I can't make any up, but it's not hard to compensate for player ineptitude with personal creativity.

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>>49562429
Yeah this is what ended up happening, I put them onto the Dock Master and things started flowing again, which led to where they wanted to go. It just took a while.

>mfw
>Lock insults Dock Master
>Dock Master gets insulted
>Refuses to talk to lock
>Lock casts Friends

Mate, you just insulted him, hes not friendly to you anymore.

>>49562393
that isnt fucked over enough

>>49562471
>wizard thinks suggest will make enemy leader NPC attack his troops
>No
>hissy fit ensues
>bard thinks that his crit 20 persuade will literally "give me the key to the castle"
>No
>hissy fit ensues
>Paladin does a rather influential speech for the town guard and has that one speech feature that gives temp hp
>"Hey good job man. I'll give inspiration for th-"
>So now they're all going to follow me after the battle right.
>No
>you guessed it

Being forever GM is suffering.

>>49562471
Wasn't that the reason for the Friends spell? As long as the Dock Master isn't outright trying to murder them it should allow another shot. Older editions were clearer about the sudden change of attitude, stating that affected creatures must make an immediate reaction check based on the character's new charisma. Granted, you should include a penalty in said roll to account for the insult.

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>>49562706
The book states that he can cast it to someone thats non-hostile to him. Insulting the guy that runs the show, makes him hostile to him, I would think.

>>49562743
doesn't hostile mean "I'm gonna smack you now"?

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>>49562794
It could mean that, it could also mean social hostile too.

You're playing god. There are only taverns if you want them there. There are only clues if you want them there.

Generally, you should want them there. So if the pcs ask a random NPC some question, you should answer in a way that moves things forward.

As an example: the pcs are looking for a cult in the city. They ask a shopkeep about it. In your notes, the shopkeep had no reason to know anything. The proper answer is the shopkeep tries to steer clear of that, but he's heard some rumors of a "insert minor hint to cult issue here".

Don't get all bogged down with making the game an accurate simulation. Very few people actually know what that means, and fewer still actually want it. Instead, make the game fun.

>>49562743
Hmm.. I have a habit of assuming hostile equals currently attacking but in retrospect you're right, being angered would be enough regardless of how the NPC dealt with said anger.

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>>49562854
Thanks for being open minded about it. Hope I helped you out :)

>>49562841
Honestly, that seems like the easiest way, but it feels so damn cheap to me.

>>49562879
Who cares if it's cheap or not? Your job as the Dm is to make things fun, and the alternatives of turning the game into a word hunt are not fun for most people.

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Anyway, its late and I need to do that sleep thing.

Thanks for the brain food. I'll think about how to approach the social situations better.

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>>49562926
Quick pip. Yeah of course, but if you always hand your players everything on a gold plate, wheres the sense of mystery or progression or adventure?

Yeah I have to make it fun for my players, but they also have to make it fun for me too.

I'm not asking for top notch detective work, just stop asking the same dumb shit and expecting the world from it.

>>49562879
It'll be something to keep in mind the next time I roll encounter reactions for a random encounter, at the very least.

>>49562958
Not that guy, but: you are handing it all to them anyway. Consider that you could create the exact same feeling in two ways:

1. The PCs ask around until they ask the right guy the right things.

2. You make up a number in you head. Once the PCs have talked to that many NPCs, the next NPC tells them what they want to know.

The resulting feeling for them is the exact same. And as for you? The fun for me when I DM is to create a world that lets the PCs tell their story. To create a backdrop that lets them reach the skies, and I don't mean level up, I mean have a good adventure.

>>49562958
So offer them multiple contradictory hints from different characters. Give them false leads. But don't give them nothing.

Always remember you're playing a group improv game. Effectively stonewalling the other improv actors is bad form.

>>49562033
>social stuff always comes to a stand still
Your solutions to problems seem tedious really.
>Want to find an inn
>Ask captain to introduce you to contacts
>Have to be introduced to a probably unimportant character
>Ask contact where an inn is
>Finally get to an inn

The elegant solution would have been the captain to just say "Not sure about the rooms but when I go drinking I go to [insert tavern name here], their brew isn't the best but it sure is cheap and sure is strong." At least then they wouldn't have to run around town to get a bed. If you want things to move fast keep them moving and cut out unimportant characters and tasks. Unless the contact is an important part of the quest the party shouldn't have to meet him to find an inn, they should only find him either by chance (eg. next time they see the captain he is talking to his contact) or if they seek him out (eg. ask captain if he knows anyone that might be willing to pay for a job).

>>49565211
Surely you are taking the piss, it was clearly stated that there is no such place in this town.

And any question remotely different would have yeilded something. But the party kept asking the same question, different ways.

I think its fair to say they should know how to ask a wider range of questions.

>No, i don't know anything about no inn. I just sleep on the boat
Gets asked about an inn again
>I told you, i don't bother leaving the ship if i don't have a reason to. Why don't you ask around, like to the dockmaster? He knows his way around

The dialogue you are describing looks (at least to me) painfully similar to
>"If you knew that already why didn't you say so before?"
>"Well, you never asked"

Otherwise, why don't you go with the classics
>I don't really want to do that
or
>I can't do that
maybe
>I don'wanna
Lucasarts game departament has already written the best lines for "I am not going to keep talking about the subject and i am not going to give any further information"

Maybe i am wrong. Maybe you are being more charitable when paraphrasing your player's dialogue attempts and they were far more terse

>>49567519
>The dialogue you are describing looks (at least to me) painfully similar to
>"If you knew that already why didn't you say so before?"
>"Well, you never asked"

Yeah, that is kinda the point of social encounters. NPC's can have their own drive, morals and personality. They may have answers to some things, but not others. Sitting there asking the captain about where he sleeps over and over again, is legit not going to go anywhere.

So you are saying the GM should just give the players the info to what ever they want, when they want, from anyone?

>>49561701
Player: "I want to find out where a [insert kind here] bar is."

GM: "Roll Streetwise (or game appropriate skill) to find one. Better success meets your specifications better, severe failure and you find none. Modified by the city and your character type of course."

Done. Carry on to more interesting parts of the game.

>>49567355
I genuinely think people aren't even reading the OP

>>49561701
Ask players, not characters clearly what they want and tell them what they need to do to get it.

Use your powers of narration and say "you ask around for a while and find out that..." it's not railroading if players want it.

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>>49562471
I swear I woke up whole fucking street laughing at that picture

>>49570505
>So you are saying the GM should just give the players the info to what ever they want, when they want, from anyone?
If getting the I do is meaningless waste of time, yes. And if getting the info is supposed to be a challenge, communicate it clearly.