>another exhausting, hour-long combat in a system of hit point

>>49501144
>d20 is showing an 8
This bothers me so much more than anything else about this thread.

>>49501158 (me)
Oh, fuck you OP. It's even upside down.

>>49501144
(you)

>>49501144
What happened today, troll?

Remembered you had no friends, so you felt the urge to shitpost again?

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Seriously, why? Why do you keep posting this thread?

Equally importantly, why do you keep playing a game you supposedly hate? I won't buy "because my friends play it" because I doubt someone like you has friends.

>>49501210
Just finished DMing a 5e game, and boy it was...okay. But the combat takes too long, and the monsters aren't dangerous enough.

>>49501306
Fuck off, you dumb troll.

>>49501306
If they are not dangerous enough, throw more or stronger monsters at your players. Also, combat has always taken forever in d&d unless you've done it 50+ times.

>>49501341
>replying to a troll

Don't be retarded.

>>49501144
tell us more, OP. we need to know if you're a baiting faggot or if you got a point.

Second verse, same as the first.

>>49501367
>Sage, report, hide. That's all it deserves.
does that accomplish anything?

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>>49501144
For me it was the first time I played a different system.

You keep posting the thread this might end up being another D&D general where people talk about D&D due to OP reverse psychology rule. Praise something on OP, thread is just a shitflinging fest, flame something on the OP, somehow for some cosmic reason it ends up being a general discussion.

Like what the fuck. I still don't get it to this day.

>>49501465

Fa/tg/uys are contrary.

>>49501144
Y'know you could always try AD&D. Character construction can be done in like ten minutes, and the mechanics are pretty simple once you learn to ignore all the optional tables and stupid shit.

Consider this: in AD&D, ogres have like 19 hp. In 3rd ed that goes up to 29. What's it at in 5th ed? 50ish? And 5th ed was a step back from the hp bloat of 4th ed. Meanwhile, longsword damage has stayed static. AD&D combat is fast and lethal, for both monsters and PCs. Might hold your attention better.

I'm not saying it doesn't have problems, I mean it was already antiquated in style when it came out, but you might give it a try to see what you like about it and what you don't.

Well Savage Worlds, Dungeon World and a lot of OSR are hella fast

>>49501465
That's entirely because retarded OPs incite much more response than well thought out OPs, and those responses will always be degrading of the OP and draw the discussion in the opposite direction.

An OP that actually makes a valid point, however, is more likely to get only a handful of responses from people who agree and then die.

>>49502688
I complained about exactly this on release and all I got was "WOW YOU CAN'T JUDGE 5E BY OLD EDITION STANDARDS" or "HURR NO MONSTERS DON'T HAVE TOO MUCH HP YOU JUST WANT NON-THREATENING COMBAT" despite it negatively impacting my experience with the game massively.

>>49501144
I feel you OP. Ran 5e for a year when it came out, in the end it was a chore. I don't mind long-ass fights in games where things keep moving, but in 5e players have like 2 decent options (unless they are casters, then they have 5) and monsters are boring sacks of meat that bring nothing to the table. 5e was a step backwards in all the areas it shouldn't have.

Long and boring combat quickly stopped being a thing once I realized I can just add modifiers and play with enemy hp.
>swinging on the chandelier? That's an advantage. Maybe even 1d4 bonus damage
>you sayin you cut his tendons? Aight, that a disadvantege for him, but only this time. The wound is actually pretty shallow
>that Orc chief rampages so hard, the wine from the barrels is now everywhere. He's also obviously drunk. His hits are now much stronger
>what? That means he's now easier to hit. Okay, advantage to you

Fight dynamics can change drastically If you learn to manage those kinds. With It, you can dynamically control the fight difficulty no matter the CR.
Well, obviously there are limits but still

>>49501144
(you)

>>49502915
this

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>>49502688
>And 5th ed was a step back from the hp bloat of 4th ed

>>49503063
speed of combat and having many options are opposed to each other to a degree. what are your experiences, anon?

>>49503192
so basically 80% of combat is a GM asspull?

>>49503501
>so basically 80% of combat is a GM asspull?

Not him, but I'm okay with this.

As long as there's a legitimate risk of failure for the party, I really don't give a shit about much else, because combat mechanics in rpgs have always been a secondary reason for me to play them.

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>>49503352

>>49502688
>Y'know you could always try AD&D.
AD&D is fucking awful, take your nostalgia goggles off.

>>49503352
I don't know what you're implying. Level 19 solo in 4e = 664 HP going by the MM3 on a business card. The 5e Balor has less than half that

>>49503588
4E damage at level 27 is also much, much higher than 5E damage at level 19. A Ranger going nova can punch through 624 HP in a couple rounds without too much trouble if they have Leader support, and even if they decide not to go nova they can do about 200 damage a round with Twin Strike abuse.

>>49503621
The 5e Balor, by 4e standards is not a Solo. At best it's an Elite. Dragons are closer to solos, since they have Lair actions and shit to act off-turn.

>>49501144
>Combat
>Lasting longer than 20 minutes, tops
>5e
I don't believe you.

>>49503646
Still has 332 health as an elite, still higher than 262

PC damage output in 4e is higher than in 5e, but if your point is "they didn't fix HP bloat" it sort of weakens your argument

>>49503670
They are still in the same ballpark, while party damage in 5e is way lower.

If anything, it got worse.

>>49501158
I rate it an 8.8.

>>49503590
Since you apparently weren't taught that whole 'reading comprehension' thing in grade school, I feel that I should point out that I did write that AD&D has problems and was already somewhat antiquated when it hit the shelves. That said, every D&D version has strengths and weaknesses, and AD&D's strengths may well line up with what OP wants, whereas its weaknesses may not matter much to him.

>>49503027
You gotta do right by you man. Most people can't into analysis of game systems, and they're incredibly inclined to give something new the benefit of the doubt and therefore fail to consider objectively. I myself didn't even realize just how badly blaster casters had fallen off with 3rd edition for years.

>>49504069
>I myself didn't even realize just how badly blaster casters had fallen off with 3rd edition for years.
what did he mean by this?

>>49504069
>I did write that AD&D has problems and was already somewhat antiquated when it hit the shelves.
It aged like milk. It's fucking terrible, why would you recommend it to someone?

>>49504164
Spells that dealt damage were generally poor choices in 3rd edition (and derivative editions thereof) because why deal damage and potentially remove an enemy from a fight when you could cast a save-or-die or save-or-suck-it spell and DEFINITELY remove that enemy from combat.

>>49504246
They also just didn't deal that much damage, without heavy optimization. It's a waste of a slot.

>>49504246
Well... area of effect?

>>49504514
Area of effect debuffs were still stronger.

Why cast burning hands when you can colorspray?

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>>49502849

>>49504514
There are a few things working against them there:

A) Enemies at low HP are just as dangerous as enemies at high HP, and as a result high single target damage that removes an enemy from a fight or debuffs that effectively do that are far superior to mediocre AoE,
B) Barring extreme circumstances like Tucker's Kobold-esque mooks or some really, really hardcore blaster optimization, dangerous enemies are not even going to be taken to half health by a Fireball, let alone killed by it. The CR system and HP scaling faster than blaster damage made sure of that.

>>49504611
Good image.

I was about to say that "everything but the Bonds example is wrong" but then goes on about how bonds don't give XP, when that's literally their only function aside from Aid.

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>>49501144
play gurps
the combat is way more lethal
the PCs always must feel fear or they will die.

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>>49501158
>>49501163
Just so that it's said.
There's a shadow under the die. That shows where the bottom is and therefore, the top also.
The top has a 20 on it. This geometric shape called a d20 is being photographed at an angle. Because of it's shape, the 8 is centered in the photo, but is not centered on the top of the die. While there is no background for you to gain perspective.. there is a shadow. You are some sort of blind monkey, or you have some sort of brain condition if you couldn't perceive that.
Thank you for your time.

>>49504241
I had fun with it up until 5 years ago (moved to a new state, old group didn't want to do online). What's so bad about AD&D?

>two "let's bitch about what's popular" threads up

What is wrong with you.
Stop feeding these trolls.

>>49503566
Then why do I need to buy $150 in books instead of playing a cheaper system?

>>49501144
When I realized OSR games are the exact same game, but better. Also when I was running 3 PF campaigns and desperately tried to kitbash in mechanics from other systems to make it remotely interesting.

>>49501144
When I saw Armor Class
When everything could be defined as a Fighter

>>49504959
>>49504987
>when my daddy said he didn't love me, and now all I do is shitpost because I'm so sexually frustrated

>>49504996
>Defending DnD this furiously

So how much of your allowance did you spend on DnD splatbooks, anon?

>>49501306
If you use the CR system, or monsters straight from the book, your players will never have a challenge. This has been true since 3.0 at least.

>>49504996
Do you work for either WotC or Paizo? Damn dude, you have passion for DnD and seem to take it as a personal attack when someone doesn't like it.

I still love D&D as a genre and will play any edition. As a GM I run hmebrewed 4e. Have been playing 15 years btw

>>49504996

Even as a fan I want to hear what people say in this thread, because I know that a lot of people don't really like the kind of game that D&D is on any level, but they play it for years because they love roleplaying and haven't learned about anything else, it's a real problem.

>>49505187
It's not a real problem, because there's nothing inherently wrong with playing the system, and it's no secret that there's plenty of games out there. And, exaggerating about how bad a game is isn't going to convince people that play it to try something else.

There's really no justification for these threads. It's literally just shitheads bitching about what's popular because they are angry and frustrated about it being popular.

>>49505248
It's not even that popular anymore. There's at most one 3.PF thread up (except these troll threads), even that thread is mostly about how to creatively NOT use 3.PF material, prospective new players always ask about 5e instead, etc.

>>49505076

That's like saying your turkey will never get up to temp if you use a meat thermometer. What you said makes no sense. You can choose to throw easy monsters at the party, you can choose to throw hard monsters at them, the CR system is just a system of measurement.

The CR system doesn't account for the specific chemistry of your party and their abilities, some monsters are easier or harder depending on what abilities you have, and the DMG explains this very well. Also the specific situation can be a bigger factor than the monsters you use, terrain and non-standard objectives can greatly affect the difficulty, and the DMG explains this very well too. Finally there are some monsters whose CR doesn't tell you enough (ex ogres are only CR3 but are extremely lethal to level 1 players), or who are simply mislabeled (every dragon is way fucking harder than its CR indicates, dragons cheat you on XP because they are dicks) and this is the part that the system doesn't warn yu about.

>>49505248

It kind of IS a secret that there are other systems. Not as much as it was 10 years ago, but yea, I still know lots of people who play D&D and don't know there's anything else until I tell them.

People don't like what you like. Deal with it. Stop shitposting in threads that don't interest you.

>>49505355
In PF they added the monster role tables specifically to assist with the chemisty of the party makeup as part of the CR issue.

But that would require reading and using their brains, which most people don't bother with nowadays.

>>49505350
>putting the burden on the players instead of on the people designing the fucking game
No, fuck off. If I'm the DM, every moment I spend fixing 3.5 to not be full retard by homebrewing content is a moment not spent on campaign prep.

>>49505368
>People don't like what you like. Deal with it.

What if I said-

>People like what you don't like. Deal with it.

Shitposting isn't dealing with it. It's just be frustrated and performing the magical thinking of pretending that shitposting has an effect on the game's popularity other than giving it even more exposure.

>>49505305
>It's not even that popular anymore.

It's comfortably the 2nd most popular game, and will remain that way for several years at least, regardless of how furiously people shitpost about it on this tiny image board.

>There's at most one 3.PF thread up

There's always the general, which is one of the fastest and most populous general on this board, and there tends to also be a few off shoots as well with people asking random questions and not realizing that /tg/ currently has a troll infestation that get triggered by the idea that people are having fun with a system they don't like.

>that thread is mostly about how to creatively NOT use 3.PF material,

That's an exaggeration.

>prospective new players always ask about 5e instead

And that's good. Still, doesn't excuse the trolls who feel compelled to shitpost about how much they hate D&D.

>>49505355

>some monsters are easier or harder depending on what abilities you have

Which roughly translates to either unending butt rape (martials) or slight road bump (mages).

>terrain and non-standard objectives can greatly affect the difficulty, and the DMG explains this very well too.

The only time that the terrain matters is when it's difficult terrain and trying to do extracurricular shit like toppling over a stone pillar or causing an avalanche usually requires the GM to look up rules that will probably never be referenced again due to how situational there are.

And throwing non-standard objectives requires the GM to put more thought into his actions beyond "make dungeon->kill shit->earn reward" which is just added work that most players are going to forget once the session is over.

>Finally there are some monsters whose CR doesn't tell you enough

Which is why it's shitty and doesn't work as intended.

>>49505463

>requires the GM to put more thought into his actions beyond "make dungeon->kill shit->earn reward" which is just added work that most players are going to forget once the session is over

I dunno, it's a default assumption in our games. Otherwise why not just play vidya where this formula shines?

>>49505529

Because D&D is the ur-example of dungeon crawling tabletop RPGs.

There's a reason why you got EXP for treasure accrued rather than monsters defeated in some of the older editions of D&D.

>>49505561
Older editions are another thing entirely since trying to kill shit without thinking is bad for you. Precisely because XP for treasure is huge and XP for monsters defeated is miniscule. It's a game of careful exploration, resource management and players' (rather than characters') wits.

I'm specifically referring to the formula

>"make dungeon->kill shit->earn reward"

And both single player CRPGs and MMOs can support simply killing shit better than TTRPG in any way, agree?

Save us, based Zweihander.

>>49505673

I'm excited about Zweihander but it's a Warhammer retroclone. Not to mention other games that do grim and gritty fantasy pretty well.

>>49505601

D&D was always a game where you and a party of your friends went into a dungeon to either kill shit or earn treasure.

Older games focused on the treasure collection aspect while newer games focused on killing shit, but at the end of the day, the formula of "make dungeon->kill shit->earn reward" was still a viable formula that most GM's will fall back on, especially when you consider that most GM's aren't creative, have no appreciation for backstory, and generally only treat monsters as meat that the players carve up until they fall over and they earn some EXP for it.

Video games are okay but most dungeon crawls don't give you the option of exploring a dungeon with your friends, so tabletop wins out because of that aspect.

well, area of effect spells of both Wizard and Cleric, followed by charging elementals and martial PCs is a way to make mincemeat of a lot of enemies.

>>49505428
>>49505461
>everybody who disagrees with me is shitposting
ok

>>49503665

Try playing past 1st level, casualboi

>>49505943
>people who have an irresistible urge to constantly complain about popular games are shitposters

Yes.

>>49505845
>most GM's aren't creative, have no appreciation for backstory, and generally only treat monsters as meat that the players carve up until they fall over and they earn some EXP for it.

That's why vidya to me is preferrable if you're going that route. There's not much of an exploration in the scenario you describe, so might as well go for an MMO raid.

>>49505973
>irresistible
>constantly
fantasize much?

>>49505737
>but it's a Warhammer Fantasy clone
Yes, and?

>>49503501
>speed of combat and having many options are opposed to each other to a degree. what are your experiences, anon?

In the party I had a berserker barbarian, a rogue, a ranger, a warlock and a sorcerer. Even giving them some margin because half of the party was inexperienced, none of the characters had more than two or three things they could choose to do in combat, except for the sorcerer. Around level 5, monsters start to get hefty amounts of hit points, but they too don't generally have a ton options. So combat IME was mostly "move and attack" for 45 minutes-an hour until we couldn't take it any more. As much as 4e gets hated on here, at lest there was something happening each round.

>>49503710
He says comparing the MM3 math that cut HP in half in 4e...

>>49506463
And it's not going to save anything except maybe bringing established fanbase of a gutted WFRPG together once again.

>>49504670
The shadow was added in later you blind person.

>>49506656
Not half. Compare the Balrog posted later (which is MM1) to the formula up there.

What it did was lower Elite/Solo defenses so players don't miss so much against them.

Plus it's not like 5e is getting an MM3-type re-haul any time soon...

In fact, I remember a tweet that was "5e finally left the idea of encounters having to be balanced and winnable behind!", and I can't help but read it as a positive spin on "we are too lazy to balance shit, deal with it".

>>49506487
personally I am at a loss myself at how to balance speed and combat options.

>>49506673
what would you consider a saving grace instead then?

>>49506487
What were you fighting that 5 5th level PCs couldn't bring down in a few rounds?

>>49506804
It's already in the DMG under the custom monsters section.

>>49506980(me)
Actually the DMG guidelines just have lower AC and higher damage - and higher DCs to saving throws.

I've not run into HP bloat issues yet, but it may happen as we get over level 10.

Convince me to switch from 3.5 to 5e, please.

Just play GURPS instead OP
Combat is lethal and the combat from the Characters book is simple and sweet

When I noticed nobody could remember their character's name, including myself

>>49507138
pro: less stuff to keep track of
con: more uniformity

make your own choice

>>49507282
Ok.
How's the saves system? It's one for each stat instead of the three, right? Does it work well?

>>49501144
>another exhausting, hour-long combat in a system of hit point bloat

Only ONE HOUR long? Son that's pretty damn short for D&D.

>>49505463

It sounds like D&D isn't for you, maybe you should go into a different thread, and talk about a game which you do not hate or suck at.

From people who have played a lot of D&D-likes and who actually like that genre of game, I'm curious to know if there are other games that do challenge rating/monster levels with anything close to the accuracy of 3e and 4e (I don't know much about 5e).
I'm talking about games with significant strategic/tactical depth and a big beastiary, lots of monsters at different power levels and with widely varying abilities. Because it's pretty easy to gauge monster levels if you're playing Numenera and your monster stat block is 1 number.

>>49507314
It's deceptive. The classic 3 stats are the ones really used for saves, the other three are only used rarely.

>>49506960
There is no saving grace. There are, however, various sensible alternatives which already exist.

>>49507138

1) Are you ready to sacrifice the variety of character options for a) classes that better balanced against one another and b) archetypes built into advancement as a primary way of distinguishing characters?

2) Do you want to sacrifice granularity in 3.5 ruleset for much more loose and simple rules which don't define everything and provide a simple foundation for you to make sensible rulings?

3) Are you interested in bringing in new players, since by virtue of being the latest edition 5e is the most popular and is also much easier to learn?

If you answered yes to all of those, do switch.

>>49507335
> I'm curious to know if there are other games that do challenge rating/monster levels with anything close to the accuracy of 3e and 4e

3e and 4e aren't even in the same category. 4e does CR very explicitly, 3e eyeballs it and fucks up constantly.

Honestly, most of the complaint about combat >>49505463 complains about 4e fixes.

Classes don't have wildly different power levels.

There's lots and lots of special terrain and effects that create special terrain.

Non-standard objectives can be handled by skill challenges.

CR, as said, is actually really on the spot most of the time (when compared with any other edition).

>>49507341
I see, thank you.

>>49503588

>Using MM1 numbers instead of MV numbers for the Balor

>>49507335

>Hurr Durr, you're bad at teh game

Is that the best you can do?

You might as well just say "I'm a drone" at this point.

>>49507327

You should see low level Basic. You got maybe 5 hit points, the monster's got 4 or 5, and people are doing d6 damage.

>>49507391
The MV one has... 2 less HP. And a lot lower defenses, admittedly.

>>49507378

They're in the same category because I don't know about any other games that have tried to do the same thing on the same scale. But I agree, I know that 4e is a lot more tightly balanced, it had the benefit of hindsight on all 3e's mistakes.

I personally dislike how homogeneous the 4e combat experience is (which was done in pursuit of balance), the classes are all too similar, and all monsters having the same stats and bonuses (for their role and level) is something I hate with a passion. But I still play 4e because it gives me an elegant and balanced baseline for my game, and I'm free to make up my own crazy shit to add on top of that.

But yea, I"ve checked out a few D&D-likes and never gotten past the player's handbook, that's why I ask about how they estimate monster power level in other games that have complex monsters.

>>49507470

It's the defenses and damage that are important for comparison, yeah. It hits a lot harder and it's way easier to kill because 4e PC's do a ton more damage.

Though this is a strange comparison anyway because the 4e Balor is 8 'levels' higher (I say levels in quotation marks because 5e CR and 4e levels work differently, so the original comparison image is wonky at best) than the 5e one.

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>>49507358

>>49507506
D&D is also pretty much my only venture into combat heavy games as well. I have played other games with combat but I don't think any of them actually had something like challenge rating... or at least I can't imagine the GMs used them. Maybe you could eyeball with XP budgets for white wolf games. Well, there's also the OSR games I've tried, I think Lamentations of the Flame Princess has a pretty cool solution for the CR thing.

And of course, just to not weer too far off of 4e, there's Strike!. That one's pretty well balanced by level, as far as I could tell, but it's essentially the same as the 4e method.

For what it's worth, I honestly prefer 4e's approach of focusing on making the _what_ different and not caring that much about the _how_, as opposed to other D&Ds where the order seems to be the other way around. Like, all those numbers just get so meaningless after a while. To me.

>>49507626
Right, the 4e characters are literal (and I'm not even using the word incorrectly here) demigods by the point they face that balor, while the 5e PCs are... well, depends on class.

>>49501144

1) Your GM is shit, op.
2) If you are the GM, see #1.

>>49507714

Derived stats are the cancer of 3e. Strength should not be a fucking 18, it should be a 4, as in +4. Roll your 4d6-drop-lowest if you have to, and roll an 18, and CALL it an 18 if you want, but then check the table and write "4" on your character sheet. A new player going to a pickup game and reading his character sheet never needs to see the number 18. It's dumb.

And its the same with monsters, you've very right, they just don't need to be built up from the ground like player characters, especially when all the systems you're using to build them do not line up in any way with their power as PCs, and you need a completely separate set of subsystems to let people play as them. 4e addresses this problem with a total paradigm shift and that's why 4e is so lean and sexy. Also I think that 4e is good as a plain old hack-and-slash wargame, when I didn't feel that way about 3e, 3e needs at least a little bit of drama and a little discovery and a little GM creativity in order to be fun (not that these things are hard to come by, just saying, 3e isn't a good enough game to be fun as a straight wargame).

But I think that 4e makes a lot of small but consequential choices by which it pidgeonholes itself as a wargame. LIke, it doesn't HAVE to be, you can be a good wargame and still be good at other stuff, but it hand-waves and trivializes non-combat factors in a way I dislike. I'm pretty sick of hearing "just use a skill challenge".

>>49507714
>I think Lamentations of the Flame Princess has a pretty cool solution for the CR thing

I'm not sure what do you mean, since LotFP solving CR is "make up your own monsters and make them unique terrifying reality warping Lovecraftian things". Now, obviously, LotFP can utilize any TSR / OSR bestiary with little to no conversion, but it's not the point of it. And it heavily discourages combat.

Swords & Wizardry is the only retroclone I can think of that has CR, but it does much like 3.5 I think.

>>49507946
I must be mis-remembering then.

I remember an OSR game where enemies had HP, level, and damage and a special ability.

Each level they were above you meant -1 to your rolls, each level it was under you +1.

>>49507341
It's not deceptive when every class gets one common and one uncommon save.

>>49506961
The issue is that in D&D "a few rounds" can begin to take an hour. If there's 5 PCs and 3 enemies, and each person takes 1 minute to take their turn, and combat lasts 5 rounds, that's an entire hour for a short 5v3 person combat.

>>49508095
Valid point, but that's only 40 minutes.

>>49508095
>a full minute to move and attack
>playing with retards is slow, guys!

>>49508185
Oh come on, I have yet to play with a party that averaged less than a minute for a combat turn.

How a grognard fixes 5e:
>no feats
>use background or ability score proficiency
>all classes can choose to take a -5 penalty on attack to deal +10 bonus to damage
>remove Constitution bonus to HP
>players remain conscious at 0HP (can only survive 1-2 hits)

I would allow feats myself, but if you wanted just a basic game that runs very fast this is all you need. Comparing that to house rules in other editions to make a OSR-like game, it should be obvious how 5e is a solid shell for a game that is on the extremely easy to make the game you want.

Outside of character building engines that appeal to a very large group that is still playing 3.pf games, there's not a lot 5e can't easily do for a fantasy genre game. That's where the appeal is for me over a lot of games on the market.

>>49508024
That's sounds interesting and I'm familiar with lots of retroclones, but can't for the life of me to guess where's this one from. If you can remember, do tell.

>>49508095
>fake analogy

>>49508250
>or maybe literal retards

>>49508250
I haven't played with one that averaged more than 15 seconds per round. At least after the first session when they learn the rules.

Either your players are retards or you're letting them play like it's chess or poker or something

>>49508185
>everyone just walks forward and attacks
no fucking way

>>49505601
>single player CRPGs and MMOs can support simply killing shit better than TTRPG in any way, agree?
No.
This has never been true. Playing a beer and pretzels dungeon crawling game is nothing even remotely similar to going on a mmo raid.

Forget better or worse its not even comparable.

Nobody thinks tabletop wargames got replaced by rts games so why do faggots still think diablo or wow have replaced combat heavy rpgs?

>>49508185
5e Internet Defense Force in full swing, I see.

>>49501465
I was actually counting on it when I decided to open the thread.

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>>49501144
I realized D&D was too much for me the first time I played D&D. I felt the same way about FFG's 40k RPG line, particularly Black Crusade. I definitely see how others would like it, but I particularly don't. There's just too much to keep track of, and it feels tedious. Instead, my friends and I play Dungeon World and Apocalypse World. The looser, simpler rules in the PbtA system are much more our speed. We've had excellent games and a lot of fun with them. They're just so much easier for us.

DnD always was the medicore choice, best suited to get new players hooked. The rules aren't that hard to understand and because it had it's fair share of references in pop culture everybody knows something about DnD.

But the system itself is pretty medicore in every regard.
The combat isn't detailed enough to justify the hour long hp-sponge fights you get at later leverls.
The RP rules aren't detailed enough and are just there to support the combat system or get the dungeon crawling going.
Neither is the character creation.

Also most problems the system (every edition) has shows after your party reached like 10th level, when the system misses every opportunity to make the fights more challanging and just gives every npc a shitton of HP and everybody getting equally good in the non combat areas.

If you ask me, you use DnD to introduce your friends to pnp and before you hit level 10 you change the system to something that suits the playstyle of your group

>>49508548
>six words per minute guy sallies forth from the oots thread

>>49501144
>It's another "I DON'T LIKE [thing] AND YOU SHOULDN'T EITHER!" thread

>>49508777
>It's another "I like (thing) so every criticism is invalid" post

>>49507916
what is ability damage

>>49504670
Plus that specific kind of die only lights up when the twenty is rolled.

>>49508804

But as this thread shows, one man's "valid criticism" is another man's "retarded shitpost."

I mean, I don't even like 5e, but I gotta say, how can it possibly take every single player and NPC 60+ seconds to take ther turn?
This whole thread is full of shit; burn it to the ground.

>>49508832
Could be applied to the derived thing.

>>49508906
In which clunky, or excessive way? If the strongest have 4 points, there is not much room for granularity here.

>>49508929
It goes to -4, then you die. It's only half as granular as usual.

>>49508866
The problem with DnD is that there is a point when every battle just becomes a tedious crawl to decimate mountains of HP.
It isn't that bad at first but later on you will have those battles.

And there is always that one guy in the group that decides to think about what his turn will look like is the moment when his turn comes up and than starts to flick through the spellbook for 5 minutes.

>>49501144
I cannot speak for 4th and 5th but I found BCMI, ADnD 2nd, 3.X and PF quite lethal.

In the first two none has many HP so a good one round attack, a single spell (not save or die just damage, a melee with good weapon mastery (BECMI) can 1 round much stuff. More in BECMI, maybe the most hardcore DnD version ever.

In 3.5 you can be SoDed, Ubercharged, critted x4, Iaijustumastered or fuck knows. If combat goes long ways is because one of the two parts is elusive.

I mean, PF and 4th "sold" the idea that you could be killed too easily in older DnD (see PF mitigated SoDs - kind of, or 4th HP bloat). why "sell" this point in the first place, OP? Can you imagine a reason?

>>49508707
>If you ask me, you use DnD to introduce your friends to pnp and before you hit level 10 you change the system to something that suits the playstyle of your group
you're right. but what if it turns out quickly they don't like the combat and looting aspects of the game but prefer roleplaying and riddle-solving? this is why d&d being the only household name is bad.

>>49509008
Well in my experience people are more willingly to try out DnD because of it's popularity.

When your guys are telling you "but we really like roleplaying and riddle stuff" its the job of a good gm to say "you know DnD is the best system for that - we could try x instead"

But when you go to new players with some less known system they are often too hesitant to try it.

>>49508967
>playing D&D above 6th level
>not just using save-or-dies, negative levels, and/or ability damage to wipe out encounters
it's like you've never even seen a spellcaster.

>>49509008
>the adventure zone

i want to leave dnd, but i cant find something good enough that makes me leave, help me i am desperate!

>>49509145
What are you looking for exactly?

>>49509073
yeah, that's what I was alluding to when i said that it is bad for the hobby that it is the only household name. i wish normies would understand that RPGs encompass different playstyles.

>>49501144 (OP)
I agree with you that D&D is a bad game in general, if people think it’s a great super hero game they should just stick with M&M.
D&D is supposable a fantasy roleplay game, the worldbuilding in this game is lousy its LOTR made by tumblr, most of the creature are bland copy pastes or color swaps and the justifications why vampires, drows, angels, giants, beholders and wizards exist are stupid or nonexistent.
In terms of rules the 5th edition is the most decent one because of its base, the more crap you pile on it like in 3.5 the more it falls apart.

I’m not a D&D hater troll, d&d was my first tabletop, I have played it more than any other table top, most of the time I have been DMing and this is what led me to hate the game.
Its bronken in so many levels that I was constantly making house rules for this and that, downloading some of the good thins in previous versions and other games for inspiration in two years I took my players from level 1 to 20 and I experienced every problem the game has, now I don’t have the energy to start a new campaing. I want to find a better base to build upon, no game is perfect but this one is fuking broken.

So this tread has a point I don’t want people to tell me why they play it, most of them will get feed up with it’s shit, I just want recommendations of other games that don’t share the same problems.

>>49509215

Finally I see some of you want specifics why this game sucks here’s a small list.

• The setting is shit, the creatures and powers have no justification for existing, it’s hard to get immersed in a world with no rules. Your better off choosing another world like game of thrones or other decently build word of some book or series.
• Hitpoints are bullshit, they are plotarmor no one is affected with realism, everyone has cat lives it takes forever to kill or be killed, and wounds mean nothing. You can have 1hp left and you still fight like you are in perfect shape.
• No consequences. There are to many DeusEx spells, you can resolve most problems with things like Mass Sugestion, Wish, Resurrect, Mirage Arcane.
• The magic makes no sense, it’s just a giant list of random effects, why would clerics, wizards and warlocks share so many powers ? Why is it irrelevant if you are cleric follower of a goddess of the sea or a god of Trickery.
• All the mediaeval things are wrong, watch Lindibeige or any other medieval aficionado you will never be immersed in this shit again.
• Every racial trait is taken over the top so everything turns in to a cartoon.
• People can easily be faster than running horses.
• The experience tables are broken, if your players do decent characters they will skip from level 11 to 17 in a session or two. Some encounter give too little xp while others, mainly bosses with minions will go completely overboard.

>>49509129
Due to bad monster balancing most DnD monsters had a bad case of save-everything syndrome.

Also it's pretty shit if you have build your encounters according to those spells. That furthers the Mage-mary-sue problem and also makes the encounters death traps if the monsters had a few lucky saves and the spellcasters ran out of spells to cast.

Of course as a DM i could always say "he didn't saved, describe how the spells kills him off" basically lying to save the encounter.
But than again i could also say "Your attack managed to kill him." on a monster that still had 200hp left.

The only problem is that players usually know how HP a monster should have left and they know when i'm giving an easy time.

The combat system is just too flawed because it tried to be accessible for everyone while trying to still make it a challange.

I mean a long fight isn't even that bad, when it keeps the players on edge during the whole time. I mean mini wargames exist... The problem with DnD is that most of the times long combats are just tedious and repetetive.

>>49509163
some kind of fantasy where my players can develop their own stlye of fighting and magic/powers

• The economy is shit. There are no prices for almost anything, except for adventuring gear and weapons. You can’t survive by having a dayjob the game starves you into being an Adventurer. And the prices that do exist are bullshit, useless magic items that give you +1 in this or that are overpriced while overpowerd ones like infinite food, water, or storage space are stupid cheap.
This ridiculous economy ruins the world why would anyone have big stores or warehouses that are crazy expensive instead of a small room and a coupe of bag’s of holding.
• There are no mechanics other than kill this. You have to make up rules for EVERYTHING, from social encounters, to chase scenes.
• The CR are meaningless i have killed a player with a fairly easy encounter while at other times they cut the beast like grass with encounters that are far beyond deadly.

In the end everything except the roleplay becomes meaningless, and the roleplay is brought by the players and the gm not the game itself, d&d is anti roleplay most of the times it focus on monster hunting and nothing more.
Why do you care about hunting monsters that don’t feel real, why do wand money in a broken economy where it means shit. Why do you want to hunt monster when the combat is the worst part of the fuking game, you use your broken powers the monster gets less numbers and you repeat the process until it dies. Its almost impossible get killed after the first levers, there is no drama or stakes in the battles, no one gets wounds so its meaningless, there are way to much healing spells, so the fight just drags on forever and even if a character or even villain manages to die in a meaningful way he can just be resurrected at a moments notice.

>>49509256
Savage Worlds probably. If you consider combat (especially tactical combat) important and want to do it a lot, Strike! is also worth a look.

>>49501144
>>another exhausting, hour-long combat

Well then you clearly weren't playing D&D.

Next?

>>49509261
>The CR are meaningless i have killed a player with a fairly easy encounter while at other times they cut the beast like grass with encounters that are far beyond deadly.

Shitty GM detected

>>49509261
>You can’t survive by having a dayjob the game starves you into being an Adventurer.

Dude if you don't want to be an adventurer, play Hillfolk. You're not supposed to survive on a dayjob in D&D, because it's not a game about that.

Most of the problems people have with D&D seem to come from wanting it to do things other than dungeon crawling. Which is why Moldvay Basic is the best D&D ever made, because it forgoes all that horseshit and concentrates on what D&D was made for.

>>49509320
You clearly haven't played DnD past level 10.

>>49509391
>tfw i killed players with a bunch of goblins that had time to prepare the battlefield because DnD simply has no intention of working tactics into their combat system.

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>>49509391
Hey balancing encounters is hard. Its like, work and stuff.

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>>49509501
There's basically a whole chapter on how things like tactical advantages and numbers effect difficulty

>>49509245

I wouldn't disagree entirely with any of those, I would just reword all of them to give you a list of reasons why D&D is so fun. Though, I personally do prefer widely varying systems of magic, in my world I frame it so that all the traditional spellcasting classes are different branches of one paradigm of magic, which is what the "main continent" in my word practices, and then all the foreign cultures and the hidden cults and stuff do much weirder shit.

It's fine to dislike those things, it's just your attitude, like you can't understand why someone else would like those things and you're bragging about it. The first part is a matter of taste but the second part just makes you inferior, you lack perspective and you sound proud of it.

>>49505076
I have a group of players that I use the CR system for. They completely fuck up against things that are proper CR for their level. It's honestly hilarious at times, but a shame they can't hold up against decent creatures.

>>49510003
I understand I came a little strong, its more than fine even good that some people get enjoy this game. And you made me see that I was being unreasonable.
A disagree than I lack perspective seeing that I can recall my previous experience when I also enjoyed the game.
You seem like a dedicated enough DM, do you not house rule the hell out of the game, so it becomes more enjoyable? Including all reskinning powers, and additional rules for events ignored my the standard rules.

>>49509986
That chapter has not much impact, if the entirety of the combat system isn't fit to implement it appropriately.

And due to the lack of non combat possibilties PCs usually lack the tools to counter such a situation.

>>49507138
Do you like epic high fantasy or do you like Game of thrones?

>>49509391
The CR don't take in consideration the habiliteis of monsters just basic stats.
A will of wisp will easly kill a low level party.
While things like elephants ore retarded large creatures in general will give you a shitton of xp for almost no effort.

>>49510461
You can have a look at the monster, and understand in which situation is good, bad, or lethal. Or you cannot. Bad GM cannot.

Now, there are monsters that are badly CRated. I will not justify the designers, they have shown more than once that they are hacks with no math skills.

>>49509574
Balancing encounters is a fool's errand because players are dumb. They'll fearlessly charge a dragon twice their level, but they'll flee from pitiful goblins. Just forget it.

>>49510662
Wouldn't that mean balancing encounters is something you should always do, so whatever they fight will be of a good amount of challenge and not a TPK or a cakewalk?

>>49510717
No shut up stupid.

>>49510717
Yes, you're right, but that neckbeard obviously hasn't thought it through. Let him wallow in his ignorant misery, while we have fun.

>>49510639
You just prove my point, if the CR is useless to help you decide which monster to use, it become meaningless.
You basically have to evaluate creatures completely by their stats and abilities.
And in the end your only making an educated guess, players don't always play in the same manner, and they surly don't always have the same luck.

>>49510662
How do they know the dragon is twice their level?

>>49510808
From the size

>>49510662
It would be nice if we could have a conversation about telegraphing the difficulty of fights better rather than assuming all fights must be balanced (or laser focusing on that erroneous assumption). Especially since in a dynamic dungeon, portions of multiple fights should snowball if there's no in-world reason they shouldn't.

>>49510997
>It would be nice if we could have a conversation about telegraphing the difficulty of fights better

Honestly, that's on the players IMO.

And the problem with that is that many players are trained by a combination of vidya and roll-fudging DMs to believe every enounter is beatable in a head-on brawl. That's the heroic narrative and that's what they expect.

Don't fudge rolls. Encourage players to scout. Encourage players to plan. Encourage players to take and use a variety of knowledge skills. Encourage players to think flexibly and use the game environment to their advantage. Discourage them from simply marching in with horns blowing and putting everything in sight to the sword.

That's how I GM Shadowrun, and I don't see why it wouldn't work for DnD.

>>49510800
The typical terrain and common tactics are in the monster's profile, at least in the DnD versions I played. And you can do more than that.

CR is far from being perfect, but it gives you an indication of which kind of spell the monster will use, the power of the attacks, the average damage and so on. In ADnD and BECMI we did not even have the CR!

If players do not aways play in the same manner is not my problem. I am not a killer GM and I try to be as much fair as possible (even when the players are "excessively" lucky, I just try to describe a fun scene then, and describe the monster's death); but they have to understand, too, when they have to flee. Because it happens.

This is the same kind of complain, in parallel, from the people that say that the fighter "is boring" (mind it, this is not a BALANCE thing - the Fighter is unbalanced "down" for potential, power, options - I do not ignore it!).
I have seen people playing fighters just charging and full attacking, and I have seen people playing fighters charging; feinting; sundering holy symbols; use a weapon for a maneuver, drop it, quickdraw bolas and trip a distant enemy; dropkick an enemy, draw a bow and full attack another; sunder a part of the scenery and room to gain an advantage; expose themselves to attract enemy attacks, using disabling maneuvers in their karmic strike/robilar's gambit attacks, and so on.

This does not mean that the system, especially in my beloved 3.X, doesn't do EVERYTHING to make their life hard, but sometimes people should develop their skills playing a game not just point-and-click.

>>49501144
Have you even played 2e?

>>49511019
You don't seem like a fun person to play with, your level of autism is too high to play as the DM

>>49511168

You seem like a very unintelligent and/or plebby player. You wouldn't last long in my group.

>>49511168
>forcing the players make choices is autism
>increase the immersion surrounding the players with a world they can interact with, not presenting them a mere array of level appropriate challenges, is autism

>>49511076
And I've seen Fighters try to do the things you're talking about and fail hard because the system rewards specialization and the game's combat maneuver system is absolute fucking garbage and goes out of its way to make using it hell.

>>49511911
The weapon dropping with the bola thing may work, but then you are specialized into trip, which is just switching one button for another, slightly more complex button.

>>49511970
Most things you can trip you can also blow up in a full attack.

>>49511076

>CR is far from being perfect

A giant bee that dies if it successfully attacks someone is listed within the same CR as a ghoul that can paralyze you with a touch and turn anything that it had killed into more ghouls.

>I have seen people playing fighters just charging and full attacking, and I have seen people playing fighters charging; feinting; sundering holy symbols; etc.

I have also READ the rules whether you're a roleplayer or a rollplayer, getting a -4 penalty to your roll because you didn't invest your character into specializing in one thing is a huge kick to the teeth and part of the reason why fighters are boring to play.

According to the rules, the act of tripping someone without having the improved trip feat puts me at more of a disadvantage than if I had swung my sword at the same person.

Since swinging a sword is easier than tripping, why shouldn't I invest my feats towards dealing my damage with my weapon?

>>49510717

Between the martials, who can barely handle the shit that they're expected to fight against and face a TPK if the GM plays the monsters intelligently and the mages who have 40 unique spells with the potential to end the encounter in one turn, balancing encounters is a task that's easier said than done.

Either you design the encounter around the mage and keep the martials in the lurch or you design around the martials and watch as the mage effortlessly ends the encounter with one of his many SoL/SoD spells that he prepped the night before.

>b-b-but mixed creature encounters

The martials dealing with the mobs while the mage deals with the actual threat is more of an insult than having the mage end the encounter in one turn.

You may think that it's a kind thing but some people would rather die than ask for handouts, especially when it's obvious that the only reason they succeeded was because you decided to throw them a bone.

>>49511019

It doesn't work in D&D because D&D is a game where killing PCs is a process that's easier said than done.

The average Fighter will have roughly 50 HP at level 5 and a CR5 creature that can deal 25+ damage per hit is a rarity unless they're way out of the Fighter's weight class.

By contrast, SR is a game where unless you're wearing armor, a gunshot wound to the chest will be enough to kill most creatures in one hit. You don't want to get into a fight because one hit will drop your ass and either put you on a death spiral or just outright kill you.

You can't really get the same results unless you explicitly use SoL/SoD shit against the party, and I'm talking about shit like phantasmal killer, quivering palm, power word: kill, or any of the other nasty shit that will just tell you to drop dead if you fail the saving throw.

>>49512152
I kinda lost track but I'll just say: 4e

>>49511019
>I don't see why it wouldn't work for DnD
Well, for starters it will totally fuck up the classes on the bottom of the totem pole because they're awful at everything you mentioned except for charging in and attacking, and they're not even good at that. 2+INT skill points and a horrid skill list and literally no non-combat features doesn't do the Fighter any favors.

And let's not forget that this style of game gives handjobs to classes that excel at information gathering and/or flexibility, which pretty much puts the keys to the kingdom in the spellcasters' hands.

I hate that so many people just talk generically and don't speak to what edition they are actually referencing.

>>49512336
If it's being shat on, you can safely assume it's 3.PF. Except if it's the CR system, then it can be both that and 5e.

>>49512336

It's always 3.PF every single time.

>>49512053
If you meet the giant bee, there is a chance the whole hive is nearby. If not, and you are talking about this one:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giantBee.htm
Note the Constitution damage of the poison. At low level is waaaay worse than the Ghoul. And the Bee flies.

Don't compare the monsters between themselves, just think about how they can fuckup the PCs.

3.X is, indeed, the "you need Improved Bathroom to go to the bathroom" system. I will never oppose that. But you do not need Improved Trip to trip someone with bolas. Or with a Guisarme, if you are out of reach.

And you do not necessarily have enough attacks to kill someone, but you can stop it from chasing, attacking a sensible target, etc.

Now if you ask me, I would merge most of the maneuver feats, make them scale and whatnot. I just say that if the wizard should carefully choose his spells, the warrior should do the same with his weapons.

>>49512152
In my experience, who deals with the mob and who with the boss depends from the terrain, the situation, the spells the casters can cast, the target, and the level.

heck, we played epic and after level 30 the casters just controlled and buffed, because shit at high levels was immune to so much stuff that was better to make sure it does not escape, dispell/remove the horrible thing it does, and let the buffed martials nuke it.

>>49512586
>Note the Constitution damage of the poison. At low level is waaaay worse than the Ghoul.

At low levels that means way less. At level one getting your con damaged by 2-3 means... 1-2 HP.

>And the Bee flies.

Which ALSO doesn't matter at low levels because it's melee and the characters can't, so it's not like they could fly away from the ghoul.

>>49512586
>If you meet the giant bee, there is a chance the whole hive is nearby.

Uh

By the same logic, a whole nest of ghouls would be nearby as well, since it's a 1-1 ratio.

> Note the Constitution damage of the poison.

It's survivable, and the bee dies after. Meanwhile, the paralyzing will kill you just as much, and afterward there will be TWO ghouls instead of, you know, NO ghouls.

>>49512586

CON damage doesn't really mean a whole lot since losing 2-4 CON only really translates to losing 1-2 HP.

Also, ghouls travel in swarms, so if we're assuming a giant bee has a hive nearby then we should also assume that the ghoul has a few buddies lying in wait to ambush you.

Not to mention, the ghouls are intelligent and aggressive while the giant bee is not. That, and flying doesn't mean a whole lot when its only means of attack is a relatively weak melee strike.

>>49501144
>exhausting, hour-long combat
So it lasted two rounds huh?

>>49509398
yeah, you know... some people would like to play fantasy, just not hack & slash fantasy. and many of them will get disappointed by d&d

>>49512627

There are plenty of spells that work around saving throws and SR and due to the way that casting spells works, it's entirely possible to deal with a creature that's immune to your shit by simply encasing it in an area that it cannot escape.

Like blasting a hole underneath its feet and then sealing the hole with earth to mud, putting it into a force cage, using gate to banish it to another plane, or some other magic fuckery that's technically legal to do due to the fact that they're not targeting the enemy directly.

Believe me, I wished that it was possible to have the martials contribute without magic but as it stands, the system doesn't really give you much leeway if you don't have a means of casting spells.

>>49512352
5e's CR system is fine using the DMG table on page 274. The problem is the books don't follow it... at least the adventures tend to be *lower* AC and HP than the MM.

>>49501423
Damn, John Leguizamo is looking rough these days.

>>49501144
Wow OP, you sure showed us. We'll never enjoy skub again.

>>49512658
>>49512757
>>49512795

Constitution 0 means the character is dead. And having less maximum HP unless restored CAN be deadly during the adventure.

The new ghoul raises next midnight. Sometimes is almost irrelevant, sometimes is extremely dangerous. Should it change the Ghoul CR by 1/8 ;)?

What bother me the most is the underestimation of flight (albeit the greater intelligence of the ghoul is more than a valid point on its favour).
If an enemy flies 80 ft is a completely different task escape from it compared to one that runs 30 feet (but can climb).

>>49509501
>You clearly haven't played DnD past level 10.

I have, but it's rare. It takes hundreds of thousands of gold pieces for characters to gain levels above 8th. The magic-user needs 150,000 gp per level; the fighter and the thief both need 120,000; and even the cleric, the fastest to advance at high levels, requires 100,000 per level. The treasure tables aren't conducive to putting that kind of dosh into the hands of the PCs easily.

>>49512795
This is true, but not always. The beauty of the game is that almost everything has a counter; dimensional anchor for planar travel, and the higher level is the enemy, the higher is the chance stuff like forcecage and whatnot can be countered.

OF COURSE casters have more options. And if I had my way, it would be different, mind it.

But after level 30th, my players just opted for physical damage as a safe option (unless other things were needed) because, using their words, "none is immune to damage*".

* objections can be made but I hope the point comes across.

>>49513170

The amount of bees that would be required to actually murder a party of level 1-3 adventurers is so comically large that you might as well just tell the party that every inch of the battlefield is bees.

The floor? Bees!
That wall? Bees!
That kitchen? Bees!

Bees as far as the eyes can see.

And you're forgetting that the save for their bee sting is relatively low, so low in fact that even a class that doesn't have any CON bonuses from their class has a 50/50 shot at actually beating it.

Also, flight is ineffectual because in order for the bee to sting you, it has to be in melee range, meaning that it's going to be buzzing (pun unintended) around you until it stings you, at which point it promptly dies and the problem takes care of itself.

Contrast that with ghouls that can absolutely demolize a low level party if they get the drop on you and are actually intelligent enough to know how to use the terrain to their advantage.

>>49513211

So basically, magic can only be countered by magic?

>OF COURSE casters have more options. And if I had my way, it would be different, mind it.
>But after level 30th, my players just opted for physical damage as a safe option (unless other things were needed) because, using their words, "none is immune to damage*".

"This creature is immune to everything and is clearly out of your league, the only way to win is to deal physical damage, NO you can't cast physical damage spells, it must be done with mundane weapons...that are magical...JUST ROLL THE DICE YOU SHEEP!"

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>>49513308

>>49513244
If you're talking 5e, pretty much everything a monster, any one, has easy-to-make saves. Pretty likely with nonsensical slap-on-the-wrist consequences, like "you got fucking petrified by a cockatrice, but no worries, tomorrow you'll be totally fine".

Giant bees, as I recall, are save vs. poison or die, and on a success you need to take an action to pull out the sting or take more damage every round when done proper - maybe tone down the instadeath so PC's won't be dropping left and right before they get to finish their second adventure. Hard to have a consistent campaign if the party has a full turnover within a month and all that.

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>>49507946
>lotfp
It's a shame, really. Its an interesting game but it's mostly made especially for THAT DM that loves fucking with players, especially the modules.

You nailed it on the head on the combat part. I don't know why there's even combat classes if combat is just " and you fight this totally original Lovecraftian blasphemous koala creature who shoots goo out its 6 orifices, roll to save or die".

>>49513545

>Giant bees, as I recall, are save vs. poison or die, and on a success you need to take an action to pull out the sting or take more damage every round when done proper - maybe tone down the instadeath so PC's won't be dropping left and right before they get to finish their second adventure.

Hardly

It's a simple save and if you fail, you lose maybe 2-4 CON overall.

I mean, the save DC is only an 11, a wizard who invests in +1 CON has a 50/50 shot at making the save and the average martial will swat them outta the air with a good strike.

These are even more pathetic than a goblin, mostly because at least the goblin doesn't kill itself whenever it hits you.

and for the record, this is 3.PF

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giantBee.htm

>>49501144
There's no denying that D&D post 3rd edition is broken on a structural level.

OP you have a few options that might be more productive than bitching on /tg/ about something everyone already knows.

1. Run AD&D. It's fairly fast and deadly, though at higher levels it suffers from a lot of the same issues 3.5, 5th and Pathfinder have.

2. Find a different game. There are a few games that aren't too dissimilar from d20 and might help sway some of your more reticent players. The Dragon Age RPG is an excellent example of how a fantasy RPG system can be done SOOO much better than D&D. You might also look into Runeqest 6th edition.

I would also suggest looking in to the Dark Eye RPG. It's a role playing game that is as dominant in German Speaking countries Fantasy RPG markets as D&D is in the English speaking world. It's a pretty good system and now that the actual publisher is relasing it in English it promises to be well supported.

>>49513615
>opinion from reading about games you don't actually play

LotFP Core rules are literally just B/X written for people instead of Gygaxian alien brains. Major changes that come to mind:
-unified skill system
-the best published encumbrance mechanic around
-expanded spell list
-ascending AC
-no native support for monsters

Only some spells and illustration picks have even hints of That GMing, and even that's arguable.

Some modules, yes. Some.

>>49507138
Want to play a game that marries the smoother and more normalized core mechanics of 3.5 with the straightforward and more typified character progression of 2e, but with an altogether more modern presentation? Play 5e.

Are you tired of 3.PF's bullshit, and want to play a fantasy RPG with the same focus on character building and theorycrafting your progression? Then play Fantasy Craft, not 5e. Outside of continuing the unified resolution mechanics 5e and 3.5 don't really have a ton of common ground, so you might not find what you're looking for if you've been used to that gamespace for so long.

>>49508269
>players remain conscious at 0HP (can only survive 1-2 hits)
Do you mean they take one/two hits, go down, and then make death saves as per usual? Or those hits would essentially count as death save failures?

Maybe they can take as many hits as their con mod, so it can still see some use?

Shit. This thread is STILL going?

>>49514397
You use death saves like normal, you just don't fall unconscious. I do let a player choose to fall unconscious to auto-stabilize, but I also don't just let them be if an evil opponent is there. A beast typical fights for their own life, but a bandit wants downed threats dead.

>>49513836
Ok, I get tired of hearing about the encumberance system. It's just a streamlined version of RuneQuest's, and the streamlining is because movement is grid based and the game is class based.

Beats the shit out of typical D&D though.

>>49514739
>>49513836
What is the encumbrance system? Only thing I know about LotFP is that it apparently has a good encumbrance rule and it apparently has gorey art.

>>49514780
It's really good.

>>49513308
I fear you are, willingly or not, misinterpreting what I al saying. It was not something I forced my players to do. And they made plenty use of spells, in and out of combat. Myself, I like 3.X with all its flaws because I like powerful magic (I just with it had more drawbacks).

I just say that THEY found easier just to buff the martial in many (not all) instances. Other times the martials were creative, and at high level magic items helped too (who care if you cannot cast fly, you have a cloack that does that).

But no, we have to have a smartass like this one.

>>49513434

/tg/ really sucks.

>>49513244
I have to ask if you are being just willingly ignorant.
The bees will lower your Con, something else will kill you because of the lowered HP and Fortitude saves.

>Also, flight is ineffectual because in order for the bee to sting you, it has to be in melee range

This. This is "shitty gameplay, the post".

What I said about speed, fleeing. All ignored.

>>49513244
>What's this? A party woefully unhassled by bees? A large influx of BEES oughta put a stop to that!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYtXuBN1Hvc

>>49515672
Are we still talking low level? Because then the bee's CON damage is still only equivalent to 1-2 extra HP gone, about half the time.

>What I said about speed, fleeing. All ignored.

Who gives a shit. Unless they come in hordes you can just prepare an action to swat them, and if you fluke that, a level 1 character still needs like 3 of them to suicide sting (and then probably some unlucky saves) to actually get downed.

You have to really build around the bees to be anything but an annoyance.

Like, you can probably make a very contrived scenario where they aren't so useless, but it probably involves having like a dozen of the fuckers.

Meanwhile, a dozen ghouls would be absolutely terrifying unless they are caged up somehow.

>>49515672

>The bees will lower your Con, something else will kill you because of the lowered HP and Fortitude saves.

The bees will most likely never lower your CON because the stings only have a DC of 11.

Martials who are designed to soak up damage will easily be able to deal with it since they'll get bonuses from their CON score and from their class.

>What I said about speed, fleeing. All ignored.

It's the same reason why the Monk's mobility is ineffectual in actual combat, because all that speed doesn't make a difference unless you're playing a character whose only gimmick is running from combat.

Bees aren't fucking terminators, they should stop attacking you once you've reached a certain distance since they aren't naturally hostile and they only attack to protect their hive.

>>49511019
Main issue is that level and numerical stats like saves, hp, ac, and damage are invisible and have a huge impact on difficulty. Whereas numbers, size, flight... Visible shit doesn't have as great an impact if the stats behind it aren't great. The decision to fight or not is going to take guesswork, deciding to retreat after its already clear you'll lose (hence the high round count), or having metagame statistical knowledge.

File: 1456279038155.jpg (35KB, 500x455px) Image search: [Google]

35KB, 500x455px

Thanks for the blog post anon.
I love tuning in to the same thread everyday!

>>49518124

Why not filter the thread?

He uses the same picture every time so it should be simple to filter.

>>49515501
Now I don't believe you. It's probably shit.

File: Capture.png (22KB, 401x319px) Image search: [Google]

22KB, 401x319px

>>49518156
On a new computer, just took the time to filter out the cancer I could remember off the top of my head. The list will get longer eventually.

>>49518161
It's a really simple point-based thing.

Chain is +1, Plate is +2, every block of 5 items past the first is +1 (6, 11, 16, 21) (stacks of tiny items count as one), oversized items are +1/item

Every point past 1 is another encumbrance category.

I've no idea why everyone keeps jacking it off like it was made by Gygax himself, it's really lackluster.

>>49518213
HP abundance? thank god for synonyms! :^)

>>49518234
nobody who has ever witnessed the crapfest that was dangerous journeys can ever get a boner over gygax' designs

>>49518268
I'm still waiting for HP bloat general /hpbg/ so we can really do something about it.

>>49501392
If they never get attention, they will find other ways to troll. But at least they will stop this one.

>>49518213
>hurr there is nothing wrong with 3.PF and everyone who has a problem with it is triggered
>filters /pfg/
That is fucking hilarious.

>>49518307
>If they never get attention,
i wonder if people will still hope that this will work in a 100 years from now. trolls will get attention.

>>49516898
Nobody said the ghoul has less uses - it has more.
But when the CR was assigned, 1/2 was considered not enough for a creature with con damage and flight, and was assumed that was not encountered in a vacuum.

>>49503192

Most of that is just dressing up meaninglessly small bonuses and penalties.

Other games are actually capable of modelling those events.

>>49518407

Which is, again, why the CR system fails at its job.

If I'm throwing a CR1 creature at the party, I should be able to do so without it being a cakewalk or a TPK.

If I have to eyeball each monster just to make sure that they're not overwhelming then why am I using it to design my encounters with?

>>49518407
>1/2 was considered not enough for a creature with con damage and flight,

Which is a pretty hefty assumption to make.

>and was assumed that was not encountered in a vacuum.

Is this not the assumption of all monsters?

Look, the bee and the ghoul have the same
armor class
HP
to hit

But the best case scenario for the bee (hits, rolls max damage, character doesn't save against poison, rolls max poison damage) is barely more damage than the average damage of the ghoul's bite. Which paralyses, which has a fucking charisma save for some reason.
Which also doesn't kill the ghoul.

In the best case scenario for the bee, the character is not even knocked out. In the best case scenario for the Ghoul, the character is fucking dead.

Like, having a bit of elbow space in CR is perfectly fine. But the bee is objectively not even half as strong as the ghoul. It's advantages (flight and speed) are basically meaningless because it can't leverage them (as it's melee so it can't keep away with its flight, and it can't really chase down since it dies after the first swing). It's like having a car with incredible mileage that explodes every time you arrive somewhere.

The giant bee is essentially like a strong cantrip, or maybe a level 1 spell from a 12 INT wizard on a stick at best. One time use, does little damage, does little CON debuff.

Except, you get XP from it like a ghoul.

>>49501144
Before 3e was a thing.

>>49520414
>bumping this thread

What a faggot.

>>49501144
When dealing with cunts breaking the system to the detriment of their group over and over.