D&D 4e General /4eg/ Come on, anons, I know this thread

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>>49474068
I liked 4th, it was different but combat had a real fun fresh feeling and it was much easier to teach to first time players than say, 3.5 or 5th.
I am legitimately thinking of running a new adventure in 4th rather than my go to of fantasy craft.
Also if anyone is reading make a fantasy craft general.

>>49474445
Also each class out of the 9 I played all felt very different from each other. I would love a chance to play the rest of the classes someday.

I so want to DM/play an Eberron campaign based on MGR.

Fuck it, I will pitch it to my group next time we meet.

Is it possible to make a ranged Psionic striker in 4e?

>>49474703
Well, the only true ranged psionic class is the Psion. I think one of the paths was damage focused maybe, but they are controllers first and foremost (and not a very good class AFAIK).

I don't think any of the hybrid striker tricks work for psions. Maybe multiclass Wizard? I'll dig into this, sounds like a fun challenge.

>>49474703
Psions are generally controllers. You can make them good and brutally efficient at that, but they won't make a good striker specialist no matter what you do.

>>49474974
That sucks. I wanted to see if I could port my favorite 3.5 character over, but that seems to be impossible.

Really that's my only issue with 4e, it's really difficult to create a concept that hasn't been already pre ordained.

>>49474984
Try asking 2hu for help. She knows her shit and seems to like grabbing damage on Psions.

>>49474996
How do I summon 2hu?

>>49475005
Post animu girls. That usually works like a clock.

>>49475009
Posting a 4e thread usually works regardless.

>>49474984
What did your 3.5 character do? Just refluff brah. Warlocks for example are actually pretty good at doing psychic damage thanks to mindbite scorn (could multiclass psion for battle psion for some extra damage there for example). Take the wild talent theme and you essentially have a psychic striker.

(I'm also looking into how to make a psion be more striker-y, please be patient).

>>49475126
He was a blaster kinesticist Psion that blasted people with energy powers like Energy Ray, Energy Missile, etc. Stuff like Disintegrate and crystal shard.

I'm not sure how receptive the DM will be about re-fluffing sources.

>>49475157
Refluffing is the norm in 4e.

>>49475194
So what's the best Int based Striker around?

>>49475203
Warlock is pretty good and is either CON/INT or CHA/INT if that floats your boat.

>>49475203
There's no INT primary striker. I think both sorc and warlock can use INT as secondary.
Wizard built for striking is your best bet with INT primary striker.

>>49475232
>>49475234
So yeah, Warlock with Wilder theme.

>>49475249
Sorc would arguably work about as well, while being a bit more bursty if built right.

>>49475833
Well Sorcs are charisma and Psions are/were Int based so that wouldn't work. I may just drop it, there doesn't seem to be a lot of wiggle room.

>>49475851
>Well Sorcs are charisma and Psions are/were Int based so that wouldn't work.
Does it matter, really?

>>49475869
Yes because part of the character's "thing" was that he was very intelligent and knowledgeable and not very charismatic. So yeah.

>>49475879
Well, INT is generally a controller stat in 4e.

>>49475901
That's why I'm dropping it. The concept isn't viable in 4e, just like how a strength based unarmed character isn't viable in 4e and 5e.

>>49475959
I think it can be really viable with Wilder+wizard (possibly one of the Mage variants).

What race is the character?

Does anyone here know stable 4e gaming communities?

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>>49474996

Improving damage on Dishearten/Mind Thrust psions (the only good type of psion), Virtue of Cunning bards, and actual control-focused wizards follows a simple recipe of magic items: Resplendent Gloves, Headband of Intellect, and one of:
A. Crystal orb.
B. Accurate Staff of Ruin with Siberys Shard of the Mage.
C. Mindwarp Staff of Ruin with Siberys Shard of the Mage.

>>49475157

You are looking for a genasi secondary-striker wizard with an Intelligence/Strength build (dump Charisma) and the Elemental Empowerment feat:
http://funin.space/compendium/feat/Elemental-Empowerment.html

Such a build's multitarget damage is on par with that of a sorcerer throughout the heroic tier, but it lacks the +2/+4 damage at the paragon and epic tiers that a sorcerer has. Still, a genasi wizard is a serviceable secondary striker even at those levels.

The main issue with such a build is from levels 1-30, your power selection is hamstrung into less-than-stellar powers. For at-will powers alone, you will be missing out on perennial favorites such as Winged Horde and Illusory Ambush (both of which are reasons why Will-targeting wizards are so dominant). By level 9, you will be missing out on the arguably overpowered Summon Succubus.

What level will you be rebuilding this character at, and what free feats are you entitled to?

>>49475203

That would be a Sorcerer-King Pact warlock with Mindbite Scorn and Killing Curse as their first two feats, then taking Twofold Pact at level 11.

>>49476886
Thanks

>>49476234
Human

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>>49476886

Addendum: A genasi Elemental Empowerment wizard/swordmage/Malec-Keth Janissary can, at level 16+, add +1d4 thunder damage and thus the thunder keyword on all of their attacks. This makes them eligible for Elemental Empowerment and even the Resounding Thunder feat.

Level 16+ will be a long wait for characters starting at heroic, however.

>>49477557
4e humans aren't all that impressive desu.

>>49479403
Bullshit they aren't

Free feat, +1 to all NADs, free floating stat bonus and some pretty good racial feats

They're amazing at all the most SAD classes, wizard, rogue, brawler fighter, bow ranger, heavy armor ranger, and "good enough" at everything else

>>49479618
I guess.

>>49479618
Also, Adroit explorer.

>>49477557
What level?

>>49479618

The class builds humans are worst at are the ones that make good use of their secondary ability scores:
• Avenger. Dexterity or Intelligence is for AC and riders.
• Whirling Slayer barbarian. Dexterity is for AC and riders.
• Barbarian (berserker). Dexterity is for AC as a defender.
• Virtue of Cunning bard. Intelligence is for AC and riders, and an extra trained skill is less important with Bardic Versatility and Bard of All Trades.
• Druid, druid (protector), and druid (sentinel). Constitution or Dexterity is for AC and riders.
• Strength/Dexterity Arena Training fighter. Dexterity is for AC on a defender.
• Strength/Dexterity fighter (slayer). Dexterity is for damage, and possibly for AC.
• Covenant of Preservation invoker. Intelligence is for AC and riders.
• Strength/Charisma paladins of all kinds. Having equal Strength and Charisma is ideal for using a versatile array of powers.
• Dishearten/Mind Thrust psion. Charisma is crucial for riders on those two powers.
• Strength/Dexterity ranger. Having balanced Strength and Dexterity lends versatility with powers, and also shores up AC.
• Seeker. Strength or Dexterity is for AC and riders.
• Wisdom/Dexterity and Wisdom/Intelligence shaman. Dexterity or Intelligence is for AC on a very fragile class, and also for riders.
• Sorcerers of all kinds. Strength, Constitution, or Dexterity is for damage and AC.
• Vampire. This class uses both Dexterity and Charisma as main attack scores.
• Warden. Constitution or Wisdom is for AC as a defender.
• Warlock, warlock (binder), and Charisma/Dexterity and Charisma/Intelligence warlock (hexblade). Dexterity or Intelligence is for AC, riders, and, for a hexblade, damage.
• Strength/Intelligence warlord. Intelligence is for AC and top-notch riders.

I do value AC even on non-defenders, yes, because Monster Manual 3-math monsters hit hard.

>>49476886
Buncha questions that I would like your opinion on prompted by this thread:

Do you think a Human Warlock with 18 CON and 17 INT at level 1 would be viable?
Any ideas how useful the following would possibly be on such a 'lock, or how to optimize for them?
- Wilder theme
- Psionic multiclass
- Psionic hybrid

Is there a way for an Aegis or a Fighter to use a ranged attack for his mark punish (at range)? I recall a fighter power that lets you punish an enemy at range with a thrown weapon but I couldn't find it.

Either way, do you have any builds/tips in mind for a Psion/Swordmage hybrid that uses the psion powers that force enemies to attack each other to trigger Assault? It sounds like a really fun build, but a quick google didn't return anything interesting.

>>49481130

>Do you think a Human Warlock with 18 CON and 17 INT at level 1 would be viable?
I would recommend a spread more along the lines of Strength 8, Constitution 16+2, Dexterity 12, Intelligence 16, Wisdom 12, Charisma 10.

>Wilder theme
The Wilder, out-of-the-box, is a middling theme for anyone but a critical hit fisher. You are much better off taking up the Noble Adept, which is far and away the best theme in all of 4e from levels 1 to 4, and still on the upper end at levels 5-9. Adept's Insight lets you turn a miss into a hit and trigger your Mindbite Scorn damage, and it can salvage skill rolls out of combat too.

>Psionic multiclass
Most psionic multiclass feats are nothing extraordinary, especially when stacked up against the likes of Battle Awareness or Resourceful Leader.

>Psionic hybrid
There are very few noteworthy uses of psionic hybrid classes. They are certainly not on the level of the hybrid cleric, druid (sentinel), or paladin (cavalier). A hybrid warlock usually pairs with a hybrid assassin (executioner) for Eldritch Strike spam, a hybrid paladin for catch-22 builds, a hybrid swordmage for Aegis of Assault + Eldritch Strike.

The best way to handle your concept, really, would be a reflavored genasi Elemental Empowerment wizard as described in >>49476886. You could even be a voidsoul genasi for psychic flavor.

>Is there a way for an Aegis or a Fighter to use a ranged attack for his mark punish (at range)? I recall a fighter power that lets you punish an enemy at range with a thrown weapon but I couldn't find it.
Long-distance mark punishment is rare for anyone but a paladin or, under certain interpretations, a paragon-tier warden with Wildblood Speed. It is usually limited to a few specific powers and magic items. There do exist ranged marking builds involving the Sentinel Marshal and Vigilante themes, but they do not try to emphasize actual mark enforcement.

>>49481130

>Psion/Swordmage hybrid that uses the psion powers that force enemies to attack each other to trigger Assault

Since the Player's Handbook 1 had first been released, characters have been unable to take immediate actions on their own turn (PHB1, page 268). The Rules Compendium supports this in page 195.

This also rules out a hybrid paladin, since the hybrid version of Divine Challenge demands an immediate reaction.

I am not aware of any particularly noteworthy hybrid psion builds. The most well-known hybrid swordmage build is the hybrid Aegis of Assault swordmage|warlock, and even then, the build suffers at the low- and mid-heroic tier due to having few ways of mitigating the action economy crisis between Aegis and Curse.

>>49481335
>Since the Player's Handbook 1 had first been released, characters have been unable to take immediate actions on their own turn (PHB1, page 268). The Rules Compendium supports this in page 195.

Dang, missed that. Would still work with dominates, right? Not that that's something to base a build around.

>>49481519

Such mark enforcement would be compatible with dominates. The earliest encounter dominates you will ever find are Charm Beast (druid 7, is not actually limited to beasts) and Touch of Command (warlock 7).

The Heartwarder paragon path also has a dominate as its level 11 encounter attack power.

>>49481663
Do you thing Swordmage paragon multi could be worth it in some situations?

While not having an AP boost sucks, the Arcane Aegis feat feels really, really good.

Alas, I'm not sure what you'd pick up with the other multiclass feats, making it quite the investment.

>>49481884

Only in the rarest of cases is paragon multiclassing actually worthwhile. Arcane Aegis is an abysmal "reward" for taking heavy investments just to paragon multiclass into swordmage; it is nothing more than a 1/encounter Aegis.

The one and only way to justify paragon multiclassing is to abuse the liberal wording of this:
>At 11th level, you can choose to replace one of your at-will powers with an at-will power from your second class.

This can allow you to acquire a Flurry of Blows power, Dual Weapon Attack, or, yes, an Aegis power.

Any Strength/Dexterity-, Constitution/Dexterity-, Dexterity/Wisdom-, or Dexterity/Charisma-based class could make excellent use of a Flurry of Blows.
None of the Essentials melee basic attackers can actually qualify for paragon multiclassing, which is a shame for Dual Weapon Attack.
Censure of Retribution avengers are perhaps the only class build in the whole game that could remotely justify paragon multiclassing into swordmage just to swap out a single at-will power for an Aegis, which will probably be Aegis of Assault to synergize with Overwhelming Strike and Power of Skill.

>>49482192
>it is nothing more than a 1/encounter Aegis.
The aegis doesn't drop. It doesn't have to be renewed like other marks. You can keep punishing the same guy over and over. There are also ways to Aegis multiple enemies, getting it on 2 important ones should be enough for an encounter for a striker.

>>49482269

Paragon multiclassing into swordmage for Arcane Aegis incinerates three feats and your entire paragon path to acquire a more limited version of the hybrid swordmage's Aegis.

If you want to have an Aegis, be a hybrid swordmage. You can even play a hybrid swordmage|warlock if you are starting at level 8+ for an Aegis of Assault + Eldritch Strike build.

Some people suggest a hybrid swordmage|wizard build for the sake of defenses, but I do not see the point of such builds compared to a Staff of Defense wizard with a Staff of Ruin in one hand and a Defensive Staff in the other.

>>49482382
Eh, not all strikers can make use of the Aegis's benefits if you hybrid. In fact, now that I think about it, it's basically just the Warlock or like, maybe the Vampire.

As a paragon multiclass, you could combine it with say, rogue, and get guaranteed off-turn activation with riposte strike.

>>49482566

Explain to me the difference between Arcane Aegis's Aegis and the hybrid swordmage's Aegis. The former demands a much greater investment, while the latter takes being a hybrid swordmage (one of the better hybrids, albeit not on the level of the hybrid cleric or hybrid paladin [cavalier]) and is usable more often.

http://funin.space/compendium/feat/Arcane-Aegis.html
>Choose a Swordmage Aegis power. You can use that power once per encounter.

http://funin.space/compendium/class/Hybrid-Swordmage.html
>This class feature functions as the swordmage class feature, except that you can use the power that you choose only once per encounter. However, you regain the use of that power when its target drops to 0 hit points or when its mark is superseded by another mark.

Also, a rogue paragon multiclassing into swordmage is a terrible build due to rogues already having an abundance of good at-will, encounter, daily, and utility powers. Taking feats for *weaker* swordmage powers, squandering your Fortitude and Will with a Dexterity/Intelligence build, and locking yourself out of Brutal Scoundrel (the best of the rogue builds) and Artful Dodger will wholly gut the rogue's potential.

>>49482648
The paragon Swordmage/Rogue can get off-turn damage boosts, while a hybrid wouldn't. That's its advantage. If you'd hybrid you'd lose half your powers (or would have to go DEX/INT, which is bleh), and would have to spend feat on hybrid talent and stuff.

But the main benefit is that I don't know of any other ways you could get an encounter long mark with punishment without going hybrid.

You can't use it as often, but that doesn't matter, because you would most likely not take it on a defender anyway. You'd plop it on whoever seems like the biggest threat this combat and unload on him; later spend a feat to get 2, or all enemies in burst, or pick up SM powers that let you aegis others. The limitation exists, but it is minor, in my opinion.

>>49482794

Paragon multiclassing into swordmage from rogue gives you the following package:

• Forced into a Dexterity/Intelligence build, shattering Fortitude and Reflex and barring you from Brutal Scoundrel (the best of the rogue builds by far) and Artful Dodger.
• Barred off from Aegis of Shielding due to that being Constitution-based, forcing you to take up the horrendous Aegis of Ensnarement or an Aegis of Assault for which you might not actually have advantage.
• Three less feats.
• A power selection downgraded from the rogue's already-superlative assortment of powers.
• No paragon path.

I have no idea why you would want to do this compared to playing a "standard" Brutal Scoundrel rogue with Low Slash at 3, Darting Strike or Startling Offensive at 7, Stunning Strike at 13, and the Daggermaster paragon path.

>'What do you want with D&D?!' Mearls: 'I want it... dead! Nothing personal, a'course. Roleplaying game's just gettin' a bit too modern.' 'What?' Mearls: 'Business an't been the same since they printed 4e. "A clean break from natural language." Hrumph! Well some of us liked that language. How's an honest C-list writer supposed to make a living?' *points to D&D Next* 'This is your answer?!' Mearls releases an early leak of 5e. 'Don't do it!'

>>49482967
>• Forced into a Dexterity/Intelligence build, shattering Fortitude and Reflex and barring you from Brutal Scoundrel (the best of the rogue builds by far) and Artful Dodger.

I don't think this is true. You'll be a bit more MAD because of multiclass requirements, but you can just simply pick up more utility stuff from the SM side. I think. I'll probably do a build tomorrow to see how it works.

>>49480310
Five, sorry for such long delays. I had classes and shit.

How much will I suffer if I take human over Genesai? I REALLY REALLY hate planetouched and the like.

>>49483119

Reflavoring is the order of the day in D&D 4e. It is far easier to reskin in this edition than any other edition, due to how there are very few effects on the DM's side that actually call for anything race- or class-specific.

Elemental Empowerment is a genasi racial feat, so it is completely impossible to take up the Intelligence/Strength-based wizard blaster build described in >>49476886 as anything but a genasi. (The Reincarnate Champion and Soul of the World epic destinies can change this, but those are for level 21+ characters.)

>>49483093

From levels 1 to 30, there are absolutely no swordmage encounter powers that do not call for Constitution or Intelligence.

Also from levels 1 to 30, Binding Aegis (1), Free the Storm Within (15), and Quicksilver Blade (25) are the only swordmage daily attack powers that do not use Constitution or Intelligence.
The first is rather shabby, especially if you lack the Aegis of Ensnarement, which itself is an awful Aegis. The second is terrible for a rogue who wants to stay mobile. The third is actually quite good, but less so on a rogue with hyper-accurate attacks and only 1/turn Sneak Attack, and it comes at only level 25.

As you might expect, this is a very poor state of affairs for a rogue paragon multiclassing into swordmage, in addition to the other titanic downsides raised in >>49482648.

>>49483337
http://funin.space/compendium/power/Aegis-of-Lost-Souls.html
You can use this, no? For encounter power I mean. Picked at random, but you'd want to aegis some more anyway.

>>49483498

That is a utility power, not one of the various swordmage encounter and daily attack powers you are required to select when paragon multiclassing as a swordmage.

>>49483498

I addition to what 2hu said, Aegis of Lost Souls has the huge opportunity cost of not taking http://funin.space/compendium/power/Borrowed-Confidence.html instead.

>>49483590

No, paragon multiclassing requires Acolyte Power as a prerequisite, which is the utility power swap feat. At level 16 a swordmage PMC could use it to take Aegis of Lost Souls.

>>49483119

Ask your DM if you can reflavour your race: you're a genasi purely for mechanical purposes and a human for appearance and roleplaying.

For a race that they tried to design as good general purpose race humans ended up being really good at a few specific builds and not so good elsewhere. If I run 4e again I'll change humans to have +2 to two different stats and no NAD bonus.

>>49483857

Player's Handbook 1, page 209:
>Paragon Multiclassing
>If you have the Novice Power, Acolyte Power, and Adept Power feats for a class

This runs into the issues mentioned in >>49483337.

Even worse, at level 11, you must choose a level 1-7 swordmage encounter attack power, and at level 20, you have to select a level 1-19 swordmage daily attack power. As we have established, your options are extremely limited.

Paragon multiclassing is worthless for the vast majority of characters, and a rogue PMCing into swordmage is no exception.

>>49483957
>Player's Handbook 1, page 209:
>>Paragon Multiclassing
>>If you have the Novice Power, Acolyte Power, and Adept Power feats for a class

Yes. And as Acolyte Power is a utility swap feat, and since the power can be re-chosen at every level (PHB1, P209), they can use it to take Aegis of Lost Souls at level 16.

If it's unclear what I mean, when you said:

>That is a utility power, not one of the various swordmage encounter and daily attack >powers you are required to select when paragon multiclassing as a swordmage

I took it as you implying that you didn't have to take a swordmage utility to PM, and I was pointing out that that was incorrect.

>Paragon multiclassing is worthless for the vast majority of characters, and a rogue PMCing into swordmage is no exception.

No disagreement from me here. About the only thing I can see it as useful for is taking one of the unlevelled at-will striker features like Dual Weapon Attack or Flurry of Blows, unless they finally closed that.

>>49484231

>they can use it to take Aegis of Lost Souls at level 16
Rogues have plenty of good utility powers, such that Acolyte Power will be a sidegrade at best.

As I have pointed out in >>49482192, few paragon multiclassing builds can actually make good use of Dual Weapon Attack.

A Flurry of Blows is far better an investment. The following melee class builds have the right ability scores for such a paragon multiclass:
• Dragon Magazine assassin.
• Censure of Pursuit avenger.
• Whirling Slayer barbarian.
• Barbarian (berserker).
• Beast Form Primal Predator druid.
• Arena Training fighter.
• Strength/Dexterity two-weapon ranger.
• Rogue (scoundrel).

You've spent a lot of time talking about when PMC is shit

When is it not shit?

>>49485114

When it's used to grab an at-will power that wasn't intended to be poachable because it's intended as a class feature. On PHB P.209 it says that:

"At 11th level, you can choose to replace one of your at-will powers with an at-will power from one of your class."

This was written before they'd created any at-will powers without a level attached - like Dual Weapon Strike and Flurry of Blows - so there's nothing stopping you from swapping a level 1 at-will of your own for one of those powers. But Dual Weapon Strike and Flurry of Blows are the striker features of Scouts and Monks respectively, so PMC can be used to add another class's striker feature to your own.

PMC has a massive opportunity cost, since it costs 3 feats and you don't get any paragon path features - it's only worth it if what you can grab is a really powerful class-defining benefit. Most ordinary at-wills aren't that good except for Twin Strike, and that's more easily poached by just being a half-elf.

>>49485114

I explain here >>49482192 and here >>49484393

Anyone running games on roll20 needing a new player? Wanting to get back into the game.

>>49486033
Look up Guild Living Campaign on roll20. They're pretty chill dudes.

>>49487653
>living campaigns

P-Please no.

Oustomia was horrifying.

>>49487671
I know most living campaigns are shit and have terrible rep in general, but this one is actually pretty good. As far as I can see, this is probably one of the best living campaigns to ever exist and competes in quality with normal campaigns instead of living ones.

>>49487726
>voice only

>>49487743
Not all DM's there enforce that, some are more cool with text, some less.
I used 90% text in my sessions so far, only sometimes having to use voice - using it at least a couple times per session is unfortunately demanded there.

Got a build concept (no game planned, just kinda screwing around with builds for the hell of it), and it requires me to be spamming one augmented psionic power per round and also have Channel Divinity without paragon multiclassing - which Divine or Psionic classes are best for minor/reaction attacks to abuse Psychic Corruption of Malbolge bein' refreshed each round?

>>49475203
Had a rogue/wizard liche that was solid. Disabled and did a ton of stabby damage.

>>49488317
Avengers get a few off-turn attacks, as do battleminds

>>49488601
Is battlemind good?

>>49488745
Battlemind is a decent defender, but only if you can get your MBAs keying off of constitution somehow

If you aren't using pre-errata melee training, the only way to do this is to be a half elf, take eldritch strike as your dilettante power, and then take the versatile master feat in paragon

>>49488745
Eugh.

Until they get lightning rush they are middling. They also really need pre-errata weapon training (or half-elf/hybrid shenanigans) to get a respectable MBA. Their mark punish is also very situational, and not that great. One of their paths (persistent harrier) is also loads better than the rest.

However, they get almost striker-tier damage with brutal barrage, so they are pretty good in paragon.

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>>49474068

Is there a 4E derivative that reduces the amount of fiddliness and analysis paralysis? Even with a seasoned group, a lot of time is spent adding small numbers and trying to decide which action to take when

>>49489217
I haven't seen a good one, although in my group, we tend to pre-perform all the fiddly mathematics so we don't have to deal with that more than necessary

>>49489217
Strike! is the closest to what you describe I think.

>>49489217
Use macros, Luke.
They speed up play about 5-10 times.
>b-but I play offline
In that case, sucks to be you, faggot.

>>49489266
Stop shilling Strike!

Why does /tg/ keep shilling Strike!?

>>49488317

Psychic Corruption of Malbolge, while a good condiment to various psionic tiefling builds, is a difficult feat to base an entire build around, unless you have the luxury of a paragon-tier start for attaching fire or psychic damage to all of your attacks. By the paragon tier, you can simply abuse Brutal Barrage as a battlemind, though you will be less effective at this than, say, a Lyrandar Wind-Rider or a Morninglord.

>>49488321

I cannot see a non-Cunning Sneak rogue as having much of a reason to multiclass into or hybrid with a wizard, and the Dexterity/Intelligence Cunning Sneak rogue is difficult to wrangle into a useful build short of hyper-optimized Stealth.

>>49488601

Clerics also have a handful of off-turn encounter attack powers.

>>49488884
>>49488905

The battlemind is simply not worth playing at all until level 7, when it receives Lightning Rush and its playstyle wholly and radically changes. Brutal Barrage at level 13 is another paradigm shift of the battlemind into a terrifyingly optimizable strike.

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>>49489281

>>49475959
>just like how a strength based unarmed character isn't viable in 4e
Do you even Brawling Fighter?

>>49475959
>>49489383

I would argue that the premier "legitimately unarmed with no weapon in either hand" build of D&D 4e is actually the Tempest Technique fighter/monk/Shock Trooper with the Master of the Fist feat. That can make use of unarmed strikes fairly well, unlike the monk.

A Brawler Style fighter doing the same with Master of the Fist can work too, although I have always felt Brawler Style's powers to be redundant with Combat Challenge and Combat Superiority.

>>49475959
There are multiple ways to build unarmed fighters in 4e

The single-target control-defender brawler fighter build, and the multi target high-damage defender tempest fighter

Just take the master of the fist multiclass feat and away you go.

If you want to be a strength based unarmed striker, hybrid fighter/ranger handles that pretty well

>>49489428

Hybrid fighter|ranger/monk/Shock Trooper is indeed a good choice compared to a pure-classed fighter. You would receive four trained skills and a much better class skill list, you could take Hybrid Talent (Tempest Technique), and you could concentrate your unarmed damage onto a single target rather than spread it out.

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Hey /4e/, I've been (maybe unironically >>49490491) redirected to ask this over here:

What's a good choice of a Sorcerer 13th level encounter spell to replace the 1st level slot one? I really think I'm better off simply keeping Bedeviling Burst

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>>49490619
Thunder Breath senpai, multi-target dazing (and slowing if you're a Dragon sorc) is never a bad choice.

>>49490619
Primordial storm or thunder breath

Considering that you had bedeviling burst as your level 1 encounter power, I'm inclined to believe you're either a cosmic or wild sorcerer, if you're cosmic take thunder breath, if you're wild, take primordial storm

What do you guys think of martial practices? Some people found them underwhelming and leaning towards 'you must have X ability to do X minor thing'. Other found them a neat idea and more of a way to do tricky things with little chance of failure than a restriction. Thoughts?

>>49492258
They're a decent idea, except for the feat requirement

The only time I've ever seen them get use is when the DM gave rogues access to them for free

>>49492258
Like rituals, they should have worked on them more. Good idea, meh execution.

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>>49490619

If you are a Dragon Magic sorcerer, Thunder Breath is plainly and obviously the best choice. You are no controller, but opening up a battle with an AoE daze and slow can cripple opponents' options.

If you are *not* a Dragon Magic sorcerer, I would still consider Thunder Breath for dazing anyway, but I would also look into Cyclone Pull, a power that fills a niche that most sorcerers (other than Storm Magic sorcerers with the Mark of Storm feat) lack: bringing together spread-out enemies into a tighter area. This allows you to follow up with an action point and an area burst 1, and helps your allies' own AoE attacks as well.

>>49492258

The current buy-in for martial studies is much too much. It costs a feat to use them in the first place, either a feat or a non-negligible amount of gold to purchase knowledge of the martial practices, and then gold and/or healing surges on top. They also max out at level 17; there are no martial practices beyond this.

Most damningly, a large portion of them represent activities a character should already be able to do with raw skill checks. There should be more martial practices that delve into the domain of "impossible by mundane means, yet achievable through mythic extensions of martial prowess," much like Solar Exalted Charms.

If Practiced Study and Practiced Prodigy were rolled into a single feat, there were actually martial studies at level 18+, and martial studies represented activities that would be otherwise impossible with skills alone, then they would be worth looking into.

>>49492301

I would not hand them out for free. The four Player's Handbook 1 martial classes are already hyper-competent in their respective roles, and there is no need to give them extra utility on top.

>>49492438
>The four Player's Handbook 1 martial classes are already hyper-competent in their respective roles, and there is no need to give them extra utility on top.

I kinda disagree, mostly because martial powers are simply not as versatile when used out of combat.

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What's your favourite race that's not in PHB1, /4eg/, and why?

>>49492301
>>49492313
>>49492438

What are some recommendations for ways to improve martial practices? I am on the fence of handing out Practiced Study as a bonus feat to some martial classes or combining it with Practiced Prodigy. But more importantly, what are some ideas for martial practices of all levels if you want to do "mythic extensions of martial prowess"?

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>>49492493
Warforged, I like the 'artificial living being' idea and the fluff they have.

On that note, Elan are a close second. Especially having it as a feat means non-humans can become them and I like the enlightened approach.

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>>49492491

The precise effects of combat powers used outside of combat time are purely DM fiat, and thus should not be taken into account when evaluating mechanical effectiveness.

Given that the vast majority of attack powers are violent and involve hurting people in order to trigger their effects, most attacks have limited utility outside of combat apart from destroying objects, which comes with hard-coded rules in the Dungeon Master's Guide 1 and the Rules Compendium. A wizard or a psion could get enemies to attack each other, but then it is up to DM fiat just how noticeable such psychic tomfoolery is.

>>49492550

I would strongly consider reflavoring rituals and duplicating them as martial practices ("practices," not "studies," as I was previously erroneously referring to them as) of the same level, albeit with different key skills and component costs.

Absolutely none of the martial practices in Martial Power 2 are the sort of ability a party would think, "Wow, we sure needed that!" with respect to. On the other hand, the Player's Handbook 1's heroic-tier rituals alone include Comprehend Language (1), Endure Elements (2), Enchant Magic Item (4), Magic Circle (5), Disenchant Magic Item (6), Cure Disease (6), Discern Lies (6), Sending (6), Speak with Dead (6), Linked Portal (8), Raise Dead (8), and Remove Affliction (8).

Consider that Endure Elements (ritual 2) is objectively superior to Survivor's Preparation (martial study 2) by mid-heroic, when 20 gp is a pittance.

>>49492684

Elan Resilience should really be a free action so that it does not conflict with actual class powers, especially defender powers. It should also key off the character's highest ability modifier, not just Intelligence.

Foulborn Heritage should also grant telepathy 5. Unbalanced Mind should be a free action, and its damage should actually scale.

>>49492493
Mechanically it's githzerai, they have awesome feats and an inherent initiative bonus

Fluff-wise though it's gnomes, a magically-created slave race for fomorians is a great take on gnomes

>>49492821
A caster-y type simply has access to more effects aside from damage (and more damage types). Summons, rearranging terrain, or using elemental effects for utility (setting things on fire, freezing water to form a bridge, etc.).

I mean, giving all the practices for free may be a bit too much, but having rituals that key off of Athletics, Heal, Acrobatics, etc. would be pretty great.

I have actually been thinking about homebrewing a revamped ritual system, as well as knocking some sort of sense into the limits of arcana (as, surprise surprise, magic can be used to do fucking everything when everything is fucking magic). In general, bringing every ritual with short term benefits (knock) on the Healing Surge standard would go a long way to possibly make them more appealing to players.

>>49492438
When I say "access to them for free" I don't mean access to the practices themselves, just getting the feat that lets you use them for free, much like how wizards get ritual casting for free

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>>49492977

>Summons
Daily attack powers, usually.

>rearranging terrain
In a highly transient fashion that lasts for only 6 seconds in most cases.

>setting things on fire, freezing water to form a bridge, etc.
There is nothing to suggest that magical attacks that deal cold damage or fire damage would actually freeze things or set them ablaze. For all we know, they could just be flash frost or flash fire that appears for a split second and then fades away. Ongoing cold and ongoing fire damage would be necessary to uncontestably freeze something or set it ablaze, and even then that is up to a mix of the rules for attacking objects and DM fiat.
One could make a similar stretch regarding how attack powers (martial, arcane, or otherwise) that push or slide creatures could be used for feats of great lifting and heaving.

>having rituals that key off of Athletics, Heal, Acrobatics, etc. would be pretty great.
If most characters have to sink a feat into Bardic Ritualist or Divine Secretkeeper (let us ignore the existence of the awful Ritual Casting feat) to gain access to rituals, then characters should be offered a similar martial multiclass feat for access to studies. That feat should comes with a free skill training and free studies each day, just like Bardic Ritualist and Divine Secretkeeper.

>>49493000

See above.

>>49493280
What are you suggesting? That all martial classes get practiced study for free?

What's a good Paragon Path for a Battlemind? It's a Harrying study with Charisma secondary. It's also a Dragonborn if that helps.

yesterday i met a 4e master that said i can have the character i want, is it possible in 4e? idk a lot of this edition

>>49493431
What's your multiclass?

>>49493433
Depends on the character. What do you have in mind?

>>49493535
Fighter, I'm picking up Heavy Blade Oppurtionity

>>49493592
Honorable blade is very good, gets better or worse depending on what damage type you've chosen for your dragon breath

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>>49493368

Let us mirror Bardic Ritualist.

Martial Student [Multiclass]
Benefit: Choose any martial class. You are considered to have multiclassed into that class, and you gain training in a single skill of your choice from that class's class skill list.
You can learn and use martial studies, and you have mastered two 1st-level martial studies of your choice without paying the market price.
In addition, once per day, you can perform one martial study you have mastered of your level or lower without expending components. At 11th level, you can do this twice per day, and at 21st level, you can do this thrice per day.

>>49493431

Lyrandar Wind-Rider is the paragon path of choice if you are optimizing for Lightning Rush and/or Brutal Barrage with a Lightning Weapon, or with a Force Weapon and Thundering Force.

The Morninglord, by level 16+, is especially savage for a Brutal Barrage battlemind who can deal radiant damage with a magic weapon.

Otherwise, I would multiclass into monk for the Soaring Blade paragon path, but that takes waiting for level 16 for a meaningful return. For something splendid out-of-the-box, no items required, I would strongly recommend a martial multiclass (preferably Resourceful Leader) and the Honorable Blade, so that you can avail of Lasting Frost and Wintertouched without having to use a magic weapon.

You could also be boring and settle for the Kensei.

As usual, if you are playing a dragonborn, be sure to selectively swap in bozak or kapak draconian variant racial traits. Pixie-style flight is always beneficial to have, and it makes Athletics checks a non-issue.

>>49493623
I wasn't really thinking about damage but I picked fire because I wanted to be gold. I think Cold and Lightning are the cray elements but does Fire bring anything to the table?

>>49493645
Honorable blade PP + Firewind blade weapon is the only thing I can think of atm.

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>>49493645

Fire offers the Firewind Blade, which synergizes well with Brutal Barrage. You will be stopped cold (no pun intended) by fire resistance or immunity. Even if you can spend 2,600 gp on a level 7 Gift of Flame, that still penetrates only 5 points of fire resistance, which is not enough to beat paragon-tier resist 10 fire, let alone 15 or 20 or outright immunity.

Remember that all demons can throw up fire resistance using variable resistance, and that almost all devils are immune to fire.

See if you can retrain your fire breath into cold breath. If so, that will make the Honorable Blade far better an investment.

If not, the strongest paragon path right at level 11 would be the Lyrandar Wind-Rider. Pick up a Lightning Weapon and the Mark of Storm feat.

>>49493565
well he said something that if i want a tank mage , i can do that

>>49493722
Depends on exactly what you mean under "mage" but dragonborn warlock | paladin (cavalier) hybrid is an arcane caster and is tanky as fuck, with full plate and everything.

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>>49493709

Also, note that Brutal Barrage with the Honorable Blade and a Firewind Blade can be rather effective against anything that lacks fire resistance/immunity, and this can be augmented considerably with Inferno Oil:

http://funin.space/compendium/item/Inferno-Oil.html

If you had opted for Wild Focus as a class feature, you could have picked up a Force Weapon, the Mark of Storm, and Thundering Force and entered the Lyrandar Wind-Rider paragon path. I believe there are zero printed monsters that resist both force and thunder damage.

>>49493722

A Staff of Defense wizard with a Defensive Staff in one hand, an (Accurate) Staff of Ruin with a Siberys Shard of the Mage in the other, the Staff Expertise feat, Resplendent Gloves, a Headband of Intellect, the Psychic Lock feat, and a focus on psychic wizard powers can have shockingly high defenses while still hurling out high damage and hard control.

It is a well-tested wizard build, and is arguably the "archetypical" optimized, pure-classed wizard.

You will not be "tanking" anything, however. That requires the defender role.

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>>49493749
aw shit, I'm gonna Golbez it up!

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>>49493749
>>49493777

Note that a hybrid paladin (cavalier)|warlock is strictly a melee build. While it can bring to bear ranged powers, the cavalier's defender aura functions only against adjacent enemies, so you will be spamming Eldritch Strike with a melee weapon, and your warlock attack powers will be merely off-turn close implement attacks like Delban's Deadly Attention.

If you simply wish to be a wizard with plate-tier AC, simply be a Staff of Defense wizard with a Defensive Staff in one hand. Unarmored Agility is also mandatory for all wizards.

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>>49493890

Another cheesy option to improve defenses in 4e is the infamous "Rhythm Blade +1 for 680 gp in the off-hand." It is questionable how this actually works in the RAW if you lack a shield bonus to begin with, but the online character builder seems to allow it.

For a non-melee, non-bow/crossbow-using character, this is as simple as strapping Rhythm Blade wrist razors +1 to your off-hand. This should, in fact, be compatible with a Staff of Defense and a Defensive Staff, if you truly wish for your wizard to be untouchable for whatever reason.

>>49493890
Well, the warlock/cavalier also has the HP to go with it. Plus, once you get twofold pact you'll get a second at-will (or you could be human).

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>>49494033

This does not change the paladin (cavalier)'s Defender Aura from being strictly adjacent-only.

If you wish to be a ranged defender|striker, try a hybrid paladin (NON-cavalier)|warlock who forces Divine Challenge catch-22s with either Eyebite or Hellish Rebuke. This can function as a Constitution/Intelligence build, a Constitution/Charisma build, or an Intelligence/Charisma build.

>>49494085
>>49494033
Was about to follow up with that myself.

I do Adore Warlock | Paladin, even with the action economy problems of cursing and marking.

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>>49494103

Hybrid warlock builds really work best starting at high heroic or above, when curse-spreading options become more accessible.

A notable exception to this is a pixie assassin (executioner)|warlock spamming Eldritch Strike charges with a Vanguard Weapon rapier, Boots of Adept Charging, a Horned Helm, a Badge of the Berserker, Light Blade Expertise, and Streak of Light.

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>build a character based on charging
>end up only having one viable action in combat because charging did so much damage compared to my other powers

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>>49494252

This, alas, is typical of optimized, charging striker builds in D&D 4e.

The monotony can be braced for by playing a class that you expect to spam melee basic attacks anyway, such as a fighter (slayer), a ranger (scout), or a hybrid assassin (executioner)|warlock.

Additionally, an avenger at least has encounter attack powers usable on a charge such as Raging Tempest (an infamous case of ambiguous wording on damage rolls) and Whirlwind Charge, and minor/immediate encounter attack powers like Fury's Advance and Relentless Stride. Still, it is a shame that Painful Oath is a paragon feat, forcing so many heroic-tier avengers to take up charging spam just to be viable.

I've been toying with the idea of Battlemind | Warlock going into Avernian knight for the most ridiculous nova round.

Too bad the PP is CON/STR, it'd be amazing if it didn't tank your defenses.

>>49494252
heh

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>>49494388

>I've been toying with the idea of Battlemind | Warlock going into Avernian knight for the most ridiculous nova round.

Be a tiefling Constitution/Charisma battlemind|warlock with the Infernal Prince theme, Hellfire Blood, Psychic Corruption of Malbolge, a Firewind Blade, and a Gift of Flame.

Multiclass into fighter, enter the Avernian Knight, and drop the level 11 encounter power with Reserve Maneuver (you will still have to live with a useless level 20 daily power).

Unleash Brutal Barrage with Inferno Oil as needed.

I see an issue in that fire resistance, fire immunity, or variable resistance will still neuter you. Additionally, this nova round is not that much better than that of a typical nova hybrid barbarian, a two-weapon ranger, or a Martial Cross-Training (Rain of Blows) fighter (slayer).

>>49494498
>Martial Cross-Training (Rain of Blows) fighter (slayer).

I notice that class is also a fighter. A bit MAD, but you could add Avernian on top of that (making you STR/CON and MAD... bleurgh). Your nova round then would be
>use action point
>run up to something
>use avernian's Curse Strike
>use Rain of blows

Of course, fire resits, yadda yadda...

Is Oct2010 the most recent character builder?

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>>49494573

I do not think it would be particularly worthwhile to stray from a Strength/Dexterity build (preferably a bugbear for a 2d8 brutal 1 gouge) as a fighter (slayer).

>>49494654

No; the online character builder is, but that requires a D&Di subscription.

>>49494689
Reading it again, you are only getting the bonus fire damage from CON, so just making it your third priority could work... except you also need 13 CHA for pact initiate. Dangit.

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>>49494689
>but that requires a D&Di subscription.
Which is complete bullshit imho. Every time WotC does those surveys on their website about 5e I always leave the comments to eliminate the ddi subscription or at least expand it so that it does stuff for 5e as well.

>>49496387
There was some method to get the CBLoader to update but I haven't done it for like, 2 years now.

https://rogue-elements.obsidianportal.com/wikis/offline-character-builder

The link to the offline builder doesn't work, but you can find that in the pastebin. Otherwise, follow the steps.

Here's the WotC index in case you wouldn't find it:

http://cbloader.com/indexes/WotC.index

>>49496920
Cool, thanks!