More than any other class, monks seem to be the one avoided because

> without randomly inserting Shaolin temples right next to your knights and castles

I feel like you are implying this is not the superior option.

>>49399504

The power of Christ empowers my fists.

Is there any class in DnD and Pathfinder that gives you martial arts prowess without being tied to a divine.

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>>49399504
I remind myself that this is a ridiculous world of magic that I am running using a system that is not and has never been intended to be accurate to Medieval Europe. One of the earliest D&D adventures involves a crashed UFO and the players fighting robots. There is nothing Medieval about aboleths, mind flayers, or rust monsters. Halaster CANONICALLY films everything the adventurers get up to in Undermountain, then hops in his Spelljammer and flies over to Earth in order to sell the recordings to Hollywood.

D&D is not a historical simulator and has never been intended to be.

Even if I was hung up on the Medieval era - Marco Polo schlepped from Italy to Asia to hang out with Kublai Khan, and he wasn't even the first European to do it, he was just the first to write significantly about it (The Venetians had a colony in East Asia as early as the 1300s, and Rome sent an embassy to the Qin).

I see no particular reason why some Son Wukong looking motherfucker couldn't make the same trek in the opposite direction. Perhaps as part of some sort of Journey to the West.

>>49399595
Fighter specializing in unarmed.

Swordsage specializing in unarmed.

Barbarian specializing in unarmed.

The Dragon Compendium (a collection of 3rd Edition stuff from Dragon Magazine) had what can best be described as a Chaos Monk.

>>49399504
I watch this movie again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUkTiLA1d5g

Then I just mentally remove the swords.

>>49399609
>lmao dragons and magic
>therefore basic historical accuracy shouldn't exist

It was a shit argument before and it's a shit argument now, you weeaboo twat.

>>49399663
Does "historical accuracy" make sense as a concept in a completely separate world from ours, where the chain of events leading up to its present is necessarily not our history?

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>>49399663
>basic historical accuracy

No, it shouldn't. My world is not Earth. Frankly it would be thoroughly bizarre if things WERE the same despite huge differences in development caused by the spread of magic, the multitude of races and monsters, the rise and fall of different kingdoms, the evolution of different languages - Hell, stuff as fundamental as a profound geological difference.

Frankly the idea of your world mimicking Earth closely is bizarre to me. Are there no butterflies? Do they not flap their wings? I will grant that I keep some basic assumptions simply to keep things recognizable and understandable to players, but the idea that the Medieval period as we understand the term could come to pass in every world is frankly absurd.

I mean, look at this world. There are profound differences between it and Earth. Most notably, all three continents are connected by warm island chains or just close proximity to each other. This world would never have a "New World" to discover or which would be out of contact from the "old world" for any significant length of time.

Can you even begin to grasp how different that would make things?

>>49399663
Basic historical accuracy already doesn't exist. There is nothing Medieval about xorn or slaadi. Studded leather armor was never a thing.

D&D was never trying to be historically accurate.

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>>49399520
It seems like something a lot of people have a problem with. Everything else is well explained, temples are just there for the sake of explaining monks.

>>49399623
Homebrewing a bunch of class crap, and this is basically my approach- a subset of Fighter that emphasize peak physical condition and martial arts.

>>49399595
I simply just play my monk like this. Kicked out from the monastery by being an atheist brat.

>>49399848
>Everything else is well explained
> temples are just there for the sake of explaining monks.
>Everything else is well explained
>proceeds to explain monks

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>>49399848
I don't have a problem with it. Martial Arts and Ki works, thus there are temples for them. It's like you're complaining about wizard colleges?

>>49399504
by playing shadowrun

>Barbarians are based on Conan not anything in medieval culture
>Clerics are polytheists
>Wizards and sorcerers use powers that at best barely resemble those of actual hermetic and mythological magic
>Druids are nothing like actual druids beyond sharing a name.

I just accept that the setting has monks and that not all monks have to be oriental and get over it.

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>>49399504
"Omneeah...omneeeah neeeoh...*whack*"

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>>49399504
Didn't you just make this thread a week ago? Just replace shaolin with western pugilism

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2_vbmZJBXSA

>>49400046
No, that was a guy asking if you would allow monks based on western-style wrestling and suchlike.

Either way, I don't agree with that since they have wildly different philosophies behind them and fighting styles. Some eastern cultures believed that with physical perfection came supernatural or magical power, where western cultures rarely had anything like that.

>>49399914
"[Monks] are not dedicated to a particular god. Instead they follow ideals based around perfection of the self. Followers of these traditions will practice martial arts, learn to withstand extreme temperatures, and develop nigh inhuman pain tolerance to hone their bodies. Others will train their memory, or learn to speak dozens of languages, or study mathematics until they can perform complex calculations purely in their heads.

Some would say that this training is a waste- most anyone with enough fortitude to become a true [Monk] could far more easily study magic, or the ways of a god. However, [Monks] take pride in the knowlege that their abilities and skill come from nothing more than their mastery of the self."

There you go. They can all be bleached white Swedish Vikings now if you like, that basic background still works.

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>>49400108
>tfw Swedish Monk
>tfw I'll never play as a CG Swedish monk obsessed with gains, traditional values, self-mastery.

>>49399504
>not being a monk devoted to Marquess of Queensberry rules

>>49400040
*Coughs*

>>49400210
*creak* OOOOOHHHHH!!!!

>>49400040

The sequel lost a lot of the charm of the original.

>>49400262
Yeah. I still play the original quite often, though, so at least there's that. Plus I occasionally drop references to it.

The goddess of conquest and evil dragons in my setting is called Scrylia, for example.

>>49399504
After a life of hardship, wandering, and mistrust, a half-orc finds peace in being the best he can be, not concerning himself with the stares of the townsfolk he would die for. He fights using monk weapons and has the monk class. He has some of the flavour of a monk, and all the mechanics. He could also just be an unarmed brawler brute who uses the monk class.

The archetypical true zen master Shaolin monk is hard to fit in though I'll agree.

>>49400243
*ba-dum-dum!" AAAAHHHHH!

Reminder that ancient greek Pankration incorporated studies of Pneuma, aka breathing techniques that could be considered similar to Ki

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>>49400307
>You's lookin' fo' some shit?

>>49400377
Stealing this pic for a character portrait.

>>49400262
>Majesty 2
I'm outta here

>>49400287
>Yeah. I still play the original quite often, though, so at least there's that.
Majesty Gold with the Majestic Majesty mod isn't half bad.

>>49399609
What he said
also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vnuqM5t4Dg

>>49400287

The original had so much flair and amazingness.

>Leave my gold...alone...

>>49399504
I've always had issue with monks.

Big part of the game is about finding new and better weapons and armour. The kind of feel like they were a class that wander in from another game.

Even wizards doesn't seem to know what to do with them. Fourth addition love them with psionic which *kind of worked* but not really. 5e made them ninjas and goddamn air benders.

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>>49400612
I think this might have something with DMs' reluctance to let monk players find shit that's actually useful for the class, i.e. +DEX crap.

The lack of magic weapons was "patched" in HotDQ however:

>>49399504
I played a monk in a campaign recently. A githzerai hobo passed through his town and performed a few martial tricks for a meal and a bed. my character followed him for a few years before the campaign start. he wasn't a weeb, just a standard westerner that learned martial arts of an unusual foreigner.

>>49400064
What about the Greeks?

>>49400326
>>49400064
You must remember monks are based more on acrobatics and multiple attacks rather than grappling. Which is better than it is in previous edition but still not something most people want to bother with.

>>49400657
Finding mystical black belts are a good solution as well.

>>49399504
Call them 'martial artists'

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>>49399520
I prefer to have a medieval fantasy equivalent to mini mall karate dojos aboud n the marketplace. They are always run by white guys with mustaches and mullets who decorate it with cheap knockoff mysterious east stuff for the ambience. But mostly get peasants and middle class students who want to learn how to fight but cannot afford real training, cannot be a Paladin or Ranger, definitely cannot afford mage school and are a step above joining things like rogue guilds.

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>>49399504
>>49399609
I tend to assume the bigger cities and empire capitals are a lot more multicultural than their medieval Europe equivalent since travel is a lot more common plus things like flight and teleportation are available. Plus some classes just have culture flavors to them like the very celtic Druids, a lot of mages and assassins have a middle eastern flavor to them, Norse barbarians, Shamans tend to be not-European, half the time Gladiators are Roman, and Japanese ninjas.

So a large city would have things like temples and churches from across the world, something like a Chinatown section with a few schools and maybe a monk temple, and some place ninjas can come from. Along with the various neighborhoods for other cultures etc.

>>49399504
You have them like the 'monks' in Oblivion. Christian-style monks in habits with the bald bit in the middle of their heads, but secretly sword-masters.

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>>49399663
>Historical accuracy
>in a game explicitly not set on Earth

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Why do RPG martial artists have to be based on the Shaolin Monk anyway?

China was covered in random schools that taught people martial arts and were not monasteries or temples at all. They were schools with the goal of making money off teaching students.

Also I never got why the Wuxia archetype was totally absent from most games since they seem to be the main goto fantasy adventurer in Chinese media anyway. And those guys are typically nobles, high ranking military officers, or wealthy men who learned kung fu and fight with a wide variety of weapons.

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>>49399504
friendly cultural exchange brought by peaceful nomads from the east

>>49399663
Accuracy to what?

My problem with monks is not the eastern part, is the monastic, wise and sagely part, why can only those be martial artists?

>>49399763
That map looks sexy as fuck

>>49399504

Actually some European monks were not far behind on fighting skills. They just didn't flaunt them so much and use simpler styles less dependant on years of dedicated training.

Where eastern monk will be honing his body through special training keeping balance between strength and agility European monks would just do hard work and train with clubs and staves. So they were less mobile but hit harder.

Here's a brief story:

>Around city of Rimini gang of bandits led by Pandolfo Malizia terrorised merchants, farmers and other travellers. Once they saw a group of travelling monks and decided that they were an okay target too. So they attacked them.

>Chronicler writes "And so brothers as befits their calling got to save their souls using holy words, strength of their arms given them by the God and the tools of Providence (clubs). They did it so zealously that 8 souls parted with their bodies and 12 more were punished for their sins with many injuries that returned them on the path to salvation"

>After that Pandolfo Malizia confessed his sins and asked for forgiveness which he was granted and became a very zealous monk himself. In the act of saving his soul he got three broken ribs, broken arm, lost left eye and half of his teeth.

I've never thought of the monk as an Asian plant though.
Just someone who's found guidance through training the body. That uses Asian principles, but isn't intrinsically linked.
My wood elf is a monk and has no ties to a temple or whatever.

I like martial arts but I don't like the baggage of having to be a wise, calm and spiritual kind of guy.

>>49399504
The trope of a monk is the trope of any honed martial artist - and especially deulists.

The problem is the treatment monks have gotten in D&D has been really stupid.

>>49405601 (me)
Think of it this way: a duelist uses a sword as the extension of his arm, and uses his intense discipline and focus to achieve impossible results when striking with his blade.

>>49405601
I like Anima Taos they're better at learning martial arts, but martial arts go from pankration, sambo, krav maga to kung fu, shotokan, moai thai, etc They'll be as Asian as you want them to be because they're just templates

>>49399976
Similar.
Paladins afaik usually come from convents or monasteries anyway.
Why wouldn't monks just be the same thing?

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>>49404318
>they managed to get far enough into Europe to sack a city of the Holy Roman Empire

Imagine what would have happened if they hadn't gone 'fuck it we have to go home now.' It was so brief that you barely even hear about it in the history books.

>>49399504

Many western monks worked quite the same, actually.

>>49404976

Think Friar Tucks seismic tossing heretics and using German martial arts.

>>49406091
German martial arts? Really? I doubt there's such a thing. The west is just too weapon focused - you have to at least have a club or a stick. Anything with fists is just boxing.

>>49406632
>German martial arts? Really? I doubt there's such a thing. The west is just too weapon focused

Incorrect. The knight's battle curriculum did not just include weapon techniques and horsemanship. It also included thorough instruction in both barehanded striking and grappling techniques as well as movement techniques that probably would've looked a lot like parkour.

>>49399504

I went for the simplest thing that could possibly work: I gave the fighter an optional fighting style "unarmed" that gives them the same benefits, word for word, as the monk's "Martial Arts" class feature.

I like the monk as a class but RAW it's overwhelmingly Weeaboo Fightin' Magic. It was easier to fix a class that almost worked than try to re-work the whole Monk class from the ground up.

Just make them dudes who are incredibly good at punching/kicking/grappling.

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>>49399763
How'd you make that map?

>>49399504
>>49399504
Simple. Monks are dwarven warriors. Bam.

Goddamn that was easy. What other problems need solving around here?

>>49407523
>use spellslots to shoot fire from hands, teleport, and protect your unarmored body: ok
>use Ki to shoot fire fire from your hands, teleport, and protect your unarmored body: weeaboo fightan magic

>>49399504

I just don't really care much. It's not like the standard D&D setting looks fuck all like medieval europe or whatever. The whole "lol D&D is medieval England" thing is dumb - it looks fucking nothing like it beyond "there's castles".

You want to have religious orders that believe in the whole working the body to cultivate the mind thing, shaolin-style? Sure, why the fuck not?

Shit, it feels obvious to me that Paladins and Monks should come from similar orders, just ones are more focused inwards and the others are more focused outwards.

>>49404308
The thing about the monk archetype, is that monk isn't just a guy who is exceptionally good at kicking the shit out of people unarmed and unarmored. He has also dedicated his life to harmony, inner peace and other new age crap.

>>49399504
Ubermensch.

>>49407829

>hasn't cloistered himself to get closer to God.

Take a look at this guy.

>>49399504
I dissagree that monks are avoided in dnd based games because of awkward culture.
I think it is because they kind of suck.
at high levels spellcasters have vastly more versatility and at low levels full plate practically makes you immune to non magical attacks. monks get neither of these benefits. You get no armor, your weapons suck, all of your features are melee combat oriented and you get no magic.

>>49408090

Adding to this, Monks also have no syngery between their class features.

You have extra speed but you can't move and FoB in the same turn. You get extra AC from Dex/Wis but you also need STR (damage) and CON (health) to stand up to most CR appropriate enemies. Your base unarmed damage increases and you get powers to give your fists magical power to bypass DR but damage you deal is miniscule compared to a 2H fighter of equal level and it's harder to increase it through magic items.

I mean fuck, they get a feature that's just a shittier feather fall that can only be done near a wall and a feature that gives them immunity to disease, but only if it's not magical.

It's just a poorly designed class overall.

>>49399504
>they are so tied to Eastern culture
Only if you don't boil them down.

>>49406632
You're retarded. Wrestling, striking, etc have always been a part of soldier training - not just sport martial arts. Fucking savate came from the age of exploration and is almost indistinguishable from other street fighting styles in Southeast Asia.

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>>49399504
gregorian style monks

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>>49407812
If you want to play a mage then play a fucking mage

Quit trying to force your weeaboo shit into the game. Fighters fight with a sword, they do not shoot lasers from their eyes. You want magic then you are just going to have to optimize a squishy mage. This mix shit is just people godmoding and cannot stand the chance of having some area of weakness on a build.

>>49407829
I think the question was more along the lines of

>Why does the martial artist have to be a shaolin monk instead of a fantasy martial artist?

>>49408682
Wouldn't those be clerics?

>>49408694

When your entire class sucks and the game renders your class largely superflous, can you honestly call it just an area of weakness?

Compare to a mage, whose low HP and inability to wear armor doesn't really matter much since they have spells that can end encounters in one turn anyways.

>>49407812

You might like weeaboo fightin' magic or hate it, but let's not fucking kid ourselves that it isn't what it obviously is. The class is pure Orientalism.

Astral-projecting disease-immune elders in vigorous health eschewing food and water while communicating calm wisdom through supernatural speech is totally in line with Taoist warrior-sages and very little to do with punching real good. Which explains why the class is "Monk" and not "Guy Who Punches Real Good."

If, however, your goal is to make a character that punches real good without making a Taoist warrior-sage the rules are a bit lackluster in that department. It's be the same problem if there was a martial Brawler class and a hybrid Monk class but the only class that could use heavy armor and swords was the Paladin or the only class that could use bows and crossbows was the Ranger. Arbitrarily tying an entire combat archetype to a hybrid caster with a very limited fluff capacity was always going to be a problem.

Rename them the Gladiator and delight in suddenyl having an excuse for lightly-armored warriors who specialize in exotic weapons.

Fuck's sake, this ain't hard.

>>49399504
They are avoided because weeaboo fightan magic is not a part of DnD. DnD is armored warriors and wizards fighting monsters. Not your favorite anime hero dueling some bishie villain with energy fists in mid air.

Why can't people just go play an anime themed game instead of constantly trying to inject their new fad media into a game that was never meant for it.

>>49408433

They don't boil down as far as you'd think, unfortunately. Some stuff only makes sense for a specific type of spiritual figure.

>>49408886
Which is yet another good argument for removing the class entirely.

Monks do not fit the setting at all, their skills are crap with the way the game is set up and for the most part are only there because animu.

>>49408874
I imagine clerics being more of the kind that draw power from the gods while monks draw it from within themselves.

So each gregorian monk could choose between being a cleric, 'monk', or paladin.

I figure paladins could also come from the order

>>49408936

Monks have been around since 2e dude.

If anything, Sorcerers are more weaboo fightan magic than the Monk since they can cast spells thanks to an ancestor fucking a dragon and there's nothing really stopping a sorcerer from punching you to death with magic augmented fists.

>>49408931

Works great right up until you're trying to figure out why your Gladiator has magical fists, speaks all forms of language, can permanently abstain from food and water, and astral project.

I always thought their skillset seemed more geared towards roleplaying "Asian guy in European world" rather than "punchy guy in sword users world"

Yea not using food and spiritual healing of nonmagical diseases are okay for fluff purposes, but if you are going against a Tarrasque then your monk might as well be a sorcerer with a shittier weapon selection and no spells to cast.

>>49408962

Actually, their skills are crap because 3e decided to take a steaming dump on over half the classes whose purpose was simply to hit things really hard until things died.

If the combat was actually well designed and the feat system didn't have obnoxious feat chains then most of the issues with martials wouldn't be issues.

>>49408936
>monks are the only character a weeb will play

>>49408989
Which is what they should be doing anyway.

A sorcerer having zero magical training or education whatsoever should not be capable of full wizard incantation spells. Glowing fists and the occasional accidental fireball should be their capacity.

>>49408995

Say one of their parents was a God(dess) and those abilities are just their demigod bloodline coming to the surface.

Boom.

>>49409051
This is true

>>49408989
>Monks have been around since 2e dude.

incorrect, they've been around since OD&D. they were introduced in blackmoor, the game's second-ever supplement.

>>49409031
I actually liked the Final Fantasy 11 style muscle mage Monks. They were typically weak and had shit defense. But their aura healing was pretty good for a party and their role in raids was to stand back and laser the mob down nonstop.

>>49409072

Yet Sorcerers have just as much arcane might as their wizard counterparts, minus the ability to change their loadout every time they rest for the night.

Honestly, I'd sooner axe Sorc's than Monks since it's usually that class where you'll find the generic kitsune foxtrot with big eyes, a small mouth, and huge tits/ass/dick who ends up trying to fuck everything in the room because they were rewarded for pumping CHA by the RAW.

>>49399663
Admit that your entire raison d'etre got taken apart in one post. You got shit on and it was fucking great to read. You had nothing to come back with. It was a slaughter and you took it like a bitch.

>>49399504
Why should anything make sense?

>>49409087
explain every anime inspired special snowflake 'hot blooded protagonist' fighter

>>49409099

Point is, they've been around longer than the bulk of the classes introduced in 3e.

Yet for some reason, Monks get put on a chopping block when they aren't even the ones ruining campaigns.

>>49399663
It is also a correct argument. Historical accuracy is neither necessary nor desirable.

>>49399663

If magic and monsters were real, the medieval ages would've probably progressed more closely to Berserk than how we remember the medieval ages in our world.

Getting hung up over mages fitting in is all around fucking stupid, especially when they've been around longer than most other classes that fit in with the theme even less than monks do.

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>>49409072
Except that's not true if they have training in Arcana first of all, and second of all sorcerers still use somatic, verbal, and material components in 5e [and the first two in 3.X].

Sorcerers still say magic words and move their hands around, its just that instead of it being "Learn philosophy, learn mathematics, learn foreign languages, begin learning how to tap into cosmic energies" its "Intuitively realize magical formula, say it and cast it using inherent magic"
>>49409021
For the last time D&D is not Europe nor intended to be Europe. Its primary influences were Conan the Barbarian, H.P. Lovecraft, and Tolkein. Its magic was inspired by the Dying Earth books, its Clerics are polytheists, its Druids have no comparison in history or mythos beyond a shared name, it has plate armor in a setting without firearms, and the monster manual is filled with a combination of prehistoric animals, monsters from various mythologies, and shit Gygax thought was cool.

There are literally living dice in the game in the game purely because Gygax didn't have a miniature for a monster that day and so he just set some D4s on the grid and said "Okay you're attacked by dice".

The Cleric class only exists because someone made a Vampire Fighter named Sir Fang who got so high level nothing could stop him.

One early player made a Balrog Fighter, and when they were discovered in the castle of one of Gygax's villains claimed that him and his companion were reporters for the Balrog Times.

There are literally cavemen and dinosaurs in this game, the latter of whom exist purely because Gygax had some toy dinosaurs he wanted to somehow incorporate into his fantasy adventure wargaming.

[Cont]

D&D is not, nor has it ever been, a simulator of western European history or fantasy. And in the context of a setting with spaceships that look like living things, polytheist-Clerics who walk on water, naked hippies who turn into bears, and people who read books to shoot lasers, THERE IS NOTHING OUT OF PLACE WITH PEOPLE WHO PUNCH SHIT.

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

>>49409141
>>49409072
>>49408989
I actually thought Sorcerers should be different from the wizard instead of their current position of alt-wizard that basically does the same thing in the group.

By the description alone they do sort of sound like the standard monster hybrid. But full spell casting from the Wizard list always seemed like a strange move to me. I always thought they should be the class that best imitated magical creatures like dragonfire adept or genasi.

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>>49409286
>For the last time D&D is not Europe nor intended to be Europe. Its primary influences were Conan the Barbarian, H.P. Lovecraft, and Tolkein.

>>49409421

Dude, if sorcerers were fucking blue mages, I think I might have actually gotten a new favorite class.

Imagine, a mage that can cast monster powers as a supernatural ability, maybe with some sort of MP shit to keep them in line, yes please!

>>49409421
During the 5e playtest, the sorcerer had a mechanic where they would mutate as they used their powers and their heritage asserted itself. For example, a dragon sorcerer, as they used up their spell points throwing around fireballs, would start growing claws and shit and become more of a melee combatant. Apparently people liked it but didn't feel it was similar enough to the sorcerer they were familiar with so it was scrapped.

>>49409469
I love the blue mage class, and it gives a huge incentive to go out adventuring looking for trouble to get into.

>>49409504

Once again, grognards ruin everything.

http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/unarmedcombat.htm#.V98ZLvkrKUk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glima
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringen

>>49408844
>>Why does the martial artist have to be a shaolin monk instead of a fantasy martial artist?
There other classes like fighter and barbarian that you can reskin as unarmed martial artist. But I dunno, I dig the whole spiritual and supernatural part of the archetype. Call me weeaboo if you want.

>>49409533
Where were they when 4e was rolled out?

>>49408899
You are right but are there actually players who want to play the "Guy Who Punches Real Good" and not a " Taoist warrior-sages". Does actually makes sense to have a class who's just an guy who's good at fighting unarmed and unarmored that is supposed to be as combat capable as an armored sword and board fighter of the same level?

>>49408962
>Monks do not fit the setting at all
They do, they literally appeared before most of the classes you so much think fit the setting.

You're so funny, you have a preconceived notion of how the "setting" is you don't know how actuall is, D&D is not medieval Europe.

>>49408936
>weeaboo fightan magic is not a part of DnD
Monks literally appeared before Clerics and Rangers, retard

My group removed monks and are using brawlers. I don't mind much after all monk class is shit.

>>49409890

Playing 3rd edition

> monks seem to be the one avoided because they are so tied to Eastern culture

No, monks are avoided because they are, so often, mechanically underpowered and become a liability to the party.

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>>49408682
Ofc that style of monks is acceptable, but I imagine the robes would get in the way of the athletics/acrobatics part of monking?

Qt3.14-monks work much better...

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>>49404976
>"And so brothers as befits their calling got to save their souls using holy words, strength of their arms given them by the God and the tools of Providence (clubs). They did it so zealously that 8 souls parted with their bodies and 12 more were punished for their sins with many injuries that returned them on the path to salvation"

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How do I get my monk to resemble Kenshiro?
What would be a reasonable way to balance his abilities, I'm trying to create a semi believable 13th level monk npc.

>>49410298
System?

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Implying someone would not want to go adventuring playing as an evil martial artist with the words Kill You on his clothes. Or pervert master searching for the ultimate underwear.

>> monks seem to be the one avoided because they are so tied to Eastern culture

But ninjas are cool right?

>>49410315
5e DnD, its a far stretch but I've been making a custom Monastic Tradition to try and bring elements of the show into my game.

Ex.
Pressure Point Assault (2nd Level, 4th , 7th)
2nd - By targeting the various muscles of your enemy, you can deal a focused strike witch reduces their next strength save by 2 on a failed constitution save.
4th - By targeting your enemy’s legs with a focused blow, you deprive them of their movement speed. On a failed dexterity save the target’s movement speed is decreased by half.
7th - To combat the use of magic, you focus a precise blow to the enemy’s jaw removing their ability to speak for 1d4 turns on a failed constitution save.
Each blow expends 1 ki point.

>>49410391
>2nd, 4th, 7th
That's not how it goes, it's at 3rd, 6th, 11th and 17th

>>49410391
They look like underpowered as fuck shit tbqhwy

As it's, from all the traditions, Open Hand seems to be the most similar

>>49410391
>literally worse than stunning fist
Be honest, you didn't even read the manual

>>49399504
Honestly martial arts, insofar as learning how to use your hands and feet as weapons, make sense in any culture that chooses to ban or restrict the population's access to weapons. This was fairly common in Eastern societies on Earth and rather less common in Western societies.

Still, when I make a fantasy setting and I want to explain why some nation has skilled hand-to-hand fighters, I usually just wave it off that the government of that nation was particularly tyrannical so many of the citizens had to resort to learning how to protect themselves without using common weapons.

>>49410391

2nd level ability is garbage because (-2) STR translates to an opponent dealing 1 less damage with his attacks.

4th level ability is carbage because speed as a whole doesn't really factor into combat since most enemies are going to be running up and hitting you anyways.

7th level ability is okay for the most part though but at the level you get it at, the mage will likely have a means of working around verbal components.

Wuxia > "spellcasters are frail and warriors are mundane"

>>49410442
>>49410428
>>49410459
Damn, sorry guys, well I'll try fixing it up. That was just the first thing that came to mind.

What would be a reasonably powerful enough feats/traits?

>>49410391
This >>49410459
A stunned creature automatically fails any Str and Dex save
A stunned creature can't move
A stunned creature can't perform any action

All for 1 ki

>unarmed fighters are relatively common
>one who transcends their limitations is legendary

Wizards wanted it this way

Are underpowered monks still an issue?

In 5e they are eithyer shadow porting ninjas or Avatar style elemental benders.

Just give the benders a few more ki points to spend per level and they are just as good.

>>49410635
I'm playing a monk in Pathfinder and am by far the strongest party member. The style feats went a long way to fixing monks.

>>49410666

As if I'd actually trust you, Satan!

THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!
THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!
THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!

>>49410635
In 5e there is a damage issue if you allow feats, just like two weapon or sword and board fighting. Easy to homebrew though.

>>49410666
Your party sucks then.

>>49399504
By divorcing mechanics from fluff like a sane game designer.

>>49410666
Shame on you, Satan, playing with downies and abusing their lack of intellect, shame on you.

>>49410780

Why shouldn't the mechanics match the fluff, or rather, why shouldn't the fluff match the mechanics.

If I'm playing a class called "Fighter," I'd expect them to be good at fighting.

If I'm playing a class called "Thief," I'd expect them to be good at sneaking around and stealing shit without getting caught.

If I'm playing a class called "magic-user," I'd expect them to be good at casting spells.

And if that isn't the case then why are they called Fighter, Thief, and Magic-User in the first place?

>>49410829
Why not?

>>49410769
nah you suck scrub lmao

>>49409307
Nope, it's a European history simulator.

>>49410879

Why not what?

>>49410927

Berserk is a more accurate simulator of European history, at least during the golden age.

>>49410829
I don't know what the fuck you're asking.
None of that has anything to do with fluff influencing mechanics.

>>49410934
>why are they called Fighter, Thief, and Magic-User in the first place?

Why not?

>>49410946
k

>>49410927
>Monks since the beginning
>Hindis, Mongolians and native Americans since the beginning
>Monsters from literally every mythology since the beginning
>"it's medieval European setting"

>>49411001
Yes, it's a medieval European setting. Glad you agree.

>>49411030
Glad you agree that it has monks since the beginning and therefore are part of the setting and you have no right to complain about them then.

>>49410952
>>49410978

There's a bit of misunderstanding.

What I was basically trying to say was, if the Fighter is being billed as the guy who is the best at fighting, the Fighter's fluff and mechanics should support that, as with any class in the game who is meant to satisfy a niche in the party dynamic.

If I sit down to roll up a character that's good at Fighting, I choose the Fighter, and he's the worst class in the game as far as combat is concerned, it just feels like the devs didn't know/care about how to make a well designed game.

I mean, it's not even that hard to build a dude who is good at fighting and has in-game lore to support it when you consider how many different characters would fit the bill of "dude who is great at fighting."

>>49411053
I never said anything about monks. I don't care about them.

>>49411030

D&D is generic fantasy world #362, but even that changes depending on which setting you're talking about.

Like, are we talking about Ravenloft, Eberron, Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, Planescape, Dragonlance, or any of the other settings that have cropped over the years?

Hell, even going by the FR setting, there's still a lot of influence that came from other cultures besides Europe.

>>49411060
Yeah well too bad, the fighter casts spells and can't wear armor. Deal with it faggot.

>>49411101

Then why is he called a Fighter?

>>49411137
Why not?

>>49411137
he fights with spells obviously

>>49411152
>>49411189

If you have a dude who can't fight, can't wear armor, and spends his time casting spells, he should be called a magic-user.

When people think of Fighter, they generally think someone like king Arthur, Conan the Barbarian, or Gilgamesh, not Merlin, Gandalf, or Harry Potter.

When you switch the concepts around, it just makes people say "why is he called X instead of Y," like how people question why Naruto is a ninja when he's shooting hadoukens and summoning Fox demons to fight for him.

Yet if you replaced the word "ninja" with "sorcerer," then suddenly everything starts makes sense again.

>>49411269
>he should be called a magic-user

No, he should be called a fighter.

>>49411338

Why?

>>49411383
Because I said so, and I am perfect.

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>>49399504
>>49399520

>not choosing the superior martial art
>using swords
>using guns

top kek

>>49411396

Keep telling yourself that champ, it won't be true but at least you'll feel better.

>>49411423
That's okay, I'll keep being perfect. Enjoy your sad, meaningless march to the grave.

>>49411421
>hitting each other with your fists
>not using swords
>not using guns

top kek

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>>49411455
>being afraid of pointy objects
>not being able to focus your inner strength and fire it out of your hands

If you still can't dodge a bullet or break a sword after proper training you should probably just go home and be a family man.

>>49411455
>Having to rely on equipment
>Thinking that's true strength
Kids these days

>>49411568
>being afraid of fists
>being afraid of limp dick energy blasts

If you can't kill a guy before he has a chance to break your shit you should probably just go home and kill yourself.

>>49411579
>not relying on equipment
>not having equipment that can never fail, does not require ammunition, and is impervious to all damage, including entropy
Kids these days

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>>49411269

>>49411644

Why is Kakashi a wizard?

He's probably the only one in the entire series who actually fucking acts like a goddamn ninja!

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>>49411618
>people still fight with fists today
>nobody fights with swords anymore

really makes you think

>>49411684
>nobody fights with swords

Speak for yourself.
And no, I don't mean recreationally.

>>49411644
>Sasuke is an Elf
It makes so much sense now

>>49411683
I think because early on his gimmick was the "Copy Ninja" who could use all the enemies magical bullshit against them

Naruto is the hotblooded Fighter
Sakura is the Cleric
Sasuke is the Elf
Kakashi is the Magic-User

>>49411740
Sakura looks like a barbarian in there

>>49411751
Yeah but I went with cleric because he can Heal later on in the series

>>49411644

I can accept that.

It's been so long since I read Naruto I forgot Kakashi actually knew more shit besides Sharingan abuse and Chidori.

I forget, does he even summon his pack of ninja dogs anymore?

>>49411775
When they are looking for Sasori and Deidara after they kidnap Gaara is I think the last time he summons the dogs

>>49411874

Damn shame, I liked the pug.

>>49407615 >>49404449
MSPaint and a lot of patience.

>>49411740
>Naruto is the hotblooded Fighter
That changed so much, by the second half of the manga he was the pacifist wise dumb guy

>>49399504

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRxggmS7CQ0

>>49411269
>like how people question why Naruto is a ninja when he's shooting hadoukens and summoning Fox demons to fight for him.
Because they have absolutely no understanding of the long and storied mythology that ninja hold in their homeland?

>>49411001
They invaded and then later imported the monsters from foreign mythologies. Took a while to get them all but now DnD France has their own Rakshasas and Nagas.

>>49412278

Last I checked, ninjas tried to attract as little attention as possible by blending in with their surroundings and used subterfuge rather than brute force to kill their targets.

They didn't wear orange sweaters, attack people head on, or shoot flashy finishing moves until they ran out of not!mana

>>49412399
Thats because the guy who invented Naruto wanted to make a series about wizards, but the people up top said they wanted a ninja manga, so he made a wizard manga but had everyone dress like ninjas

True story.

>>49399504
If the game/setting is designed to have this class in it, i put them in, if not, i don't.

Anyone not agreeing with me gets kicked of my game.
Because i have no time for you whinny cunts.


STOP CREATING THREADS ABOUT STUPID SHIT, FFS!

>>49412491

Y'know what though, even if it wouldn't necessarily change the overall quality of the story, people would've probably been less harsh if they were mages as opposed to ninjas.

I mean, after the chunin exam, any ninja elements that the series had ended up being phased out in favor of rasengan/chidori dick riding.

>>49412501
>Anyone not agreeing with me gets kicked of my game.
Do you have a problem with finding a common ground? I found that my players can give me great ideas that improve my games.

>>49411568
If late edition DnD is taking anime as an example then why don't we ever have monk that shoot ki blasts from their hands yet?

>>49412567

The average tha/tg/uy has no interest in finding common ground.

They only want to look cool or failing that, ruin the campaign for you and everyone else involved.

That's why if I see a whiny cunt like OP, I kick him as soon as possible so he doesn't have time to distract from game and cause problems.

>>49412700

Actually, there is an alternate monk path in 5e sword coast adventures that gives you the power to shoot pure sunlight out of your hands.

>>49409504

I think it had more to do with trouble balancing the mechanic out. I've been playing around with it for a homebrew class and it's a bit tricky to get the balance right because unlike most casters there's an actual benefit to running low on your casting resource.

Sure, slowly going from a backline caster to a frontline fighter over the course of the day sounds cool (God, does it sound cool) but the resource economics of it are a bit wonky: make the casting too good and there's too much incentive not to "waste" your good stuff, make the physical bonuses too good and there's too much incentive to dump the casting early in order to get maximum use out of the physical bonus. With a little bit of tweaking you can get to the point of incentivizing dropping 6 of 8 casts in the first 36 seconds of the adventuring day then holding on to the last 2 for emergencies, but I'm not sure I would consider that a success given how the class is supposed to work.

I think there's actually a lot of merit to the idea, but neither the Next version of it or my stuff is actually in a good place yet, and that's a shame.

Also, it's a pain in the butt trying to figure out how to account for it under multiclassing without things getting even weirder, but that's a sidebar.

>>49412793

I think D&D will be better off when everyone involved stops trying to say that multi-classing is a viable tactic.

Or at the very least limiting multi-classing to martials since a mage is already powerful enough with 9 levels of spells to choose from (plus cantrips).

>>49412714
Can you blow up mountains with the sunlight?

>>49413002

It's not the most powerful shit in the world but for shit like Ravenloft, they're invaluable.

Especially for low levels when the mages don't have access to sunlight spells yet.

>>49399609
>Son Wukong
>Perphaps as part of some sort of Journey to the West

Goldstar post
10/10 would read again

>>49399504

In my setting Gods are just normal people (or animals) that perform something so spectacularly badass that they spontaneously ascend to Godhood. One such god is Xiora, a man from a Brazil-ish nation who descended into the underworld, challenged a devil to single hand to hand combat for his girlfriend's soul, and kicked its ass so hard he became a god right there on the spot. He since fucked off to the outer planes to meditate and do...god shit, but ever since then a whole bunch of monasteries have sprung up training acolytes in the brand of martial arts Xiora used, in the hopes that they might attain a level of combat mastery great enough to ascend to godhood as well.

So far nobody has. People have come close and "brushed against" divinity for a few minutes, but it hasn't stopped people from trying.

>>49412833

I kind of like where 5e is with it. Single-class is the gold standard, there's a few feats that make it possible to grab a small thing or two without missing a whole level, and if you have a particular build in mind you can still get it at the cost of some purely numerical effectiveness.

I'm very happy when I can suggest single-class without having to ban multi outright, and I've seen quite a few players with a 3.PF background visibly relax when being told their character idea won't require any multi-classing at all.

>>49412700
>>49412714
That's still not quite it.

Why not just make some kind of ranged attack that does bludgeoning damage equal to your STR and however much Ki you want to spend on it, and fires in a straight line. Seems pretty simple and typical for a fantasy monk type. Maybe if you have to attach some kind of energy type to it, holy/divine? So it can at least do some more damage to undead and infernal.

The closest I see to this is the Fist of Unbroken Air skill the elements monk has.

they're avoided because they fucking suck

fucking just GIVE them full ab already

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>>49414690
Yea this was pretty much how I saw it. It was not a matter of monks not fitting into the pseudo-Tolkien setting but the fact that they are terrible at whatever the hell they are intended to do.

Fighters fight better, Casters do better damage, rogues are better strikers, and Barbarians cover the lightly armored powerhouse angle.

Monks have no real specialty so they only attract the anime and kung fu fans who want to be the martial artist. If they were good at something they might attract more players who wish to use that designed purpose....when they eventually get one.

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>Thread still talking about how monks are useless and bad mechanically
Welcome to the latest 2 editions of D&D, brothers.

>>49414819
I thought 4e Monks were punchy psykers

>>49414690
but they have it in 5e
and they can move and flurry in the same turn in 5e
also they're not dependent on 4 stats

4 elements is still one of the worst archetypes in the game, though
and 4e monk was better, it fit the game well

>>49414955

And they work pretty well, due to being a close range strike that can target various NADs

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>>49414955
Their power source was indeed psionic, but have they ever had divine powers? They may serve in monasteries that have dedicated deities or philosophies, but their power comes from within, as opposed to being channeled like a paladin or cleric.

>>49414972
But even a paladin's power arguably isn't from a deity - at least outside of 4e, where they were literal holy warriors.

>>49414972

There's a paragon path that requires training in religion and its powers are divine.

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>>49399663
>lmao dragons and magic
>therefore basic historical accuracy shouldn't exist

Play anima were weapons are so over priced and taxed people went back to beating each other to death with their fists.

Tbh this a great fix for like 60% of /tg/'s problems.

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>>49407615
>/ss/
>Played entirely straight
>Somehow not awkward or creepy
How does she do that?

>>49399663
ok.

So yes, the wizard has no more spells, he goes to a bar and asks as many men as he can for their semen to gain mana. Or sucks hanged men dicks like Odin.

>>49416040

By being in a manga where the mangaka is more concerned with writing a compelling story than getting his jollies off.

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>>49418442
Her fetishes are just hard to spot.

>>49408249
Maybe you should stop playing the shittiest edition.

>>49399504
i only play boxer monks

>>49399595
Yes, Monks.
You're not taught any religious beliefs and your powers don't rely on any divine, it's all about inner peace and controlling your emotions, honing your skill through patience and all that eastern mumbo jumbo.

Now if you don't want any KI shit, pathfinder has an archetype for monk called Martial Artist that replaces ki with other stuff.

And if you just wanna use your fists like a baller, check out the Brawler class in pathfinder.

>>49399609
Upvote. Five stars. Like.

>>49409977
*cough* pathfinder brawlers *cough*