>start playing new Pathfinder game >play a summoner >go

I honestly can not give a fuck anymore, shits stale.

Let sleeping dogs lie

>>49392932
I'm more ambivalent towards it than anything. I prefer point build systems to class and level systems, but that's the worst I can really say.

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>>49392932
>only thing realized ITT

>>49392932
i think this is more of a case of shit dm the shit system, why would your game master throw something at you when you have no hope of winning, shits not right

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Let's just get it over with quickly.

>>49393332
oh man, saving that. whoever made that rules.

>>49392932
The bait's not as good today.

>>49393500
This time it was less bait and more my frustration with the system as a whole. I'll shitposter harder next time, senpai.

>>49393576

You're not supposed to win every encounter, you know.

>>49392932
It's 2016, you're a few years late on this.

>just keep trying to attack a monster impervious to your attacks
Yes, this is clearly the game's fault.

>>49392932

when i tried d20 modern as a teenager and realized how miserable it was.

>>49393304
t. shit player

>>49392932
I realized D&D was shit when I saw dice that weren't D6 on the table.

>>49393332
Saying that Path of War is "missing the point" seems like a cop-out honestly. It's the book that explicitly exists for the pure pose of resolving the martial/caster disparity, so disregarding it out of hand feels like an attempt to ignore the solution to the problem in order to prolong the argument

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>>49393746
The problem is it's a 3ed party book. Whereas the actual publishers think like, well.

This.

>>49393646
I had probably the single most fun filled campaign I've ever had in D20 Modern. Everyone else was playing Ex-Military, Emos, or Hackers. I was playing a meth addict.

Only Tough hero in the party, only unarmed and melee in the party. Proceed to get the most kills, most plot development, and punch the shit out of cyborg version of myself that traveled back in time to steal my drugs, because there weren't any drugs in the future.

>>49393643
>monster impervious to physical damage
>monster impervious to magical damage
>monster impervious to spells

>>49393332
Has someone posted this on the Paizo forums?

>>49394014
>Not using the terrain to lock it in place or slow it enough where he wouldn't matter.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a huge fan of D&D and the games that are like it but this is a tabletop, not a video game

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>>49393332
>The "It's a Team Game" image

>>49394014
None of your party's have ever taken down a creature that couldn't be damaged?

>>49392932
>anyone still GMing 3.pf is not worth the lies they tell about game prep

and that's a rock fact

>>49394014
This sort of shit is why spells like pit, rock to mud and the like exist.

Fuck, the entire reason for force cage to exist is for things that can not be damaged or to stop yourself from being nuked by arch wizards and ancient dragons

>>49393332
how many free feats would you have to give to every martial class to make it ballanced, do you think?

>>49394717
2-3 every level and something unique they can do that a wizard can't replicate with magic

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the games are simply as good or as bad as the people involved.

complaining about a roleplaying system is like picking up a pencil and saying "oh man pencils are awful" just because you drew a bad picture.

either the dm isn't adjusting the rules to fit the players or the players aren't adjusting their expectations to meet the challenge. everybody has to be flexible. you only get as much as you give.

>>49394756

That's easy to say about a super light system where each character has access to the same number of berth of abilities but not a system where there's hard limitations on what certain classes can or can't do and certain classes can have upwards of 400+ character options.

The one thing that's really hard to actually moderate is "bloat" especially when certain classes just plain have higher expectations at certain levels where other classes simply can never reach.

The moment you infer Fighty Mcgee can cut mountains in half and fly even at level 20 people go all "GET THIS ANIMU GARBAGE OUTTA MUH D&D" but then they get angry when the level 20 wizard isn't summoning demons from hell, flying around everywhere and turning invisible while raining down comets.

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>>49392932
>Being shit at charcter building

>>49392932
>Attack a monster
>Entire party can do nothing
>Rather than running away and regrouping, you keep attacking until someone dies

Sure is the system's fault alright.

>>49394931
>character building being a metagame
No.

>>49394895
what you're describing doesn't sound like any game i've been a part of.

more-often-than-not my players are in a room filling with water while crocodiles try and eat them. getting out alive is a job well done.

i feel like maybe you're alluding to an over emphasis on combat. summoning demons and sword fighting won't get you out of a bad legal situation or cure the infection in your lungs. challenges shouldn't always be violent in nature.

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>>49394973
>Character building takes more than 5 minutes

>>49393304
You're not always supposed to be able to beat everything, sometimes it's best to run

>>49394985

>doesn't sound like any game i've been a part of.

Anecdotal evidence.

>i feel like maybe you're alluding to an over emphasis on combat.

No actually in fact you know why?

Because casters actually excel way more outside of combat than any other non-caster class to the point where casters having a vast amount of utility is the #1 reason they're considered broken.

Unless you either A) Actively put anti-magic bullshit everywhere just to spite the caster or B) Study the spells your casters know and can cast thoroughly before creating an encounter they can almost instantly overcome it.

>>49394756
>the dm isn't adjusting the rules to fit the players
what does this mean? You shouldn't have to fudge rules in your system.

>>49394717
Depends on the edition. I've read a great analysis of 5E that shows that you'd need to give Fighters an near-exponential number of feats at higher levels in order to maintain parity. For example, a single 9th level spell per day is roughly equivalent to 8 and a half feats.

>>49393939
>cyborg version of myself that traveled back in time to steal my drugs, because there weren't any drugs in the future.
That's amazing.

>>49395035
a lot of dms and campaigns have battles set up like chessboards. the terrain is pretty flat and the enemies are at the opposite side of the room. if you actually put time into making interesting combat engagements, with interactive environments and strategic enemy movement, casters will generally struggle to keep up or avoid being mobbed.

if a caster is able to just stand still and fire off spells until the battle is over then the battle was a failure from a narrative standpoint. dming is hard and there are a lot of mediocre dms out there.

again, you really can't complain about a system because the system is malleable. if your dm isn't adjusting things correctly then find a new dm. if you are just upset because you don't feel powerful enough then you should probably just play a video game because feeling powerful really isn't the point.

>>49395076
fudging the rules is the most important part of being a dm. there aren't rules for everything. you need to fill the gaps.

you could easily program a computer to enforce the written rules of any system but then you are going to be required to only attempt things for which rules exist and suddenly you are playing a video game.

>>49395090
Whoever wrote that was smoking something.

3.¶f is the new aDND its mostly the best because of memories within that system and resources. Every one might be experimenting with 5e but I think the best aDND style RPG is myfarog and the best 3.0 3.5 or PF edition is miniature rules for 3.0 played with 3.5 spells and maybe PF characters. 4 is source book only teir and 5 is YouTube teir n not as action packed with rock solid mini rules. Star finder might be interesting but only for the fact that most SciFi DND groups turn into 40k and the 40k RPG content sucks thou I could imagine GW going the extra mile and doing a inquisitor light system for the necromunda box. Seriously you start playing cyberpunk or traveler and you just end up in 40k and despite what many people think I don't think FFG know what they are doing in tabletop they know how to make cardboard tokens of things that belong in iPhone apps. Their systems are good boardgames but they haven't made a mature hardcore system yet and it doesn't look like they want too. They make casual RPGs and tabletop boardgames but yer the fact pathfinders getting the SciFi treatment for 3.5ish shit will be very good for all the fallout games . but half the book will still be wasted on space ship shit

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>>49395131
Oh, here we go, "It's the DM's fault the casters can do everything and the martials are shitty!!!"

Go eat a mountain of dicks.

>>49395187
Wait, make that two mountains. While a GM can change the rules if they WANT, they shouldn't be FORCED to make up for shitty, shitty rules.

>>49395131
It's funny because terrain stacked against the players is far easier for a spellcaster to deal with than it is for a martial. Full attacking is a shit mechanic that should have been taken out back and shot in playtesting.

How would you guys to about making 3.0 3,5 and PF work in one campaign like content from all 3, I have the three core 3,0 books with a 3.5 eratta added in and a separate file with all the 3.5 spells. I doubt I'll get any more physical books so imagine I have them on the table plus a lot of epub3s I can search and bookmark easy what sorta filter would I have to apply to 3.x and PF starefinder content to make it work. Mind you I understand how this would make the game looser and less tight for players and gm but say you always pick the lowest disputed stat would that work? I think I'm basically ready to download all 3.pf content and start wading thru it just so I can tell friends what's possble pre game or would I be better sticking to one. I asume there's some stuff only in 3.0 and only in PF that's not in 3.5 I figure it will be Easter to fudge things once the game has got going. But I'm tempted to wait till starfinder because of the new skills. Not sure what game I would run prob some stranger things shit so the SciFi skills might come in handy for Audio video skills.

>>49395249
complaining about it isn't going to make you less angry

i've played multiple systems and i've liked them all. you probably can't find any system that fits your specific needs. the problem is that you think games exist to entertain you when the reality is that games exist to empower you to entertain yourself.

if you're not having fun it's probably because you're not fun.

>>49393293
This.

>>49395210
The Foresight spell gives one target advantage to all attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws, immunity to being surprised, and enemies have disadvantage to attack the target. All that for eight hours with no significantly expensive material components, merely a hummingbird feather. No concentration required, the only restriction is if you cast it a second time the first one expires.

Now, tell me how many feats you think that's worth.

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>>49395355
Actually, I like M&M 3e pretty well, a system that breaks if you breathe hard on it.

But there's nothing in the system that makes a concept objectively worse then another, unlike 3.PF that punishes you for not playing a spellcaster.

So take that shit and shove it right back up your ass.

>>49395460
you clearly have a very narrow perception of how roleplaying games work. you keep talking about stuff like it's a video game. the point isn't to level up your character and beat the game. the point is to sit around with your friends and tell a story one situation at a time until you've written a full and wondrous history together.

you should try and intentionally make a bad character some time and learn how to have fun in spite of your compulsion to be optimal.

>>49394014
>there is no way to stop something other than by damaging it and attacking it directly

>>49392932
So the DM sent a monster at you that either was too tough (his mistake, hopefully he learns from it) or that you were supposed to run from (and they eventually did).

If you start min/maxing then everyone else needs to min/max to the same degree or else some players are going to get screwed.

>>49395541

Making a sub par character should involve something more than playing a character who doesn't use magic directly.

>>49394014
If your dm has put that kind of a creature in a place with no way to deal with him like shoving him down a pit or something then you've got a garbage dm

>>49395621

Don't bother arguing with him. He obviously doesn't view you as a peer but rather someone to lecture. The irony being that he's completely retarded.

>>49395541
Nigga, the druid's fucking class feature can replace my whole fucking class.

I CAN BE REPLACED. WITH A FUCKING CLASS. FEATURE. WHY AM I EVEN THERE.

No fucking duh I don't have any fucking fun when I can't do anything, or actively hurt the rest of the fucking party.

>>49394029
If they have, I'm sure they were instantly banned and their account and entire posting history was erased because they disagreed with the glorious dev team that can do no wrong.

>>49395716
Is that really what the forums are like?

>>49395682
>No fucking duh I don't have any fucking fun
well i don't have fun playing basketball and that's why i don't play basketball. i'm not mad at basketball.

>>49395731
Probably? I was just making an assumption. I know for a fact that the Paizo team refuses to ever admit they were wrong about caster supremacy, and it takes an ego the size of the goddamn sun to do that.

>>49395541
The DM should be *able* to fudge rules, but they shouldn't be doing it all the time. If the DM just pulls rules out of his ass, then I can't enjoy the game, because I know no matter what I do, I'm not moving towards a goal. I'm moving towards whatever the DM wants us to be moving towards.

So, if you have a system which is completely broken, and in order for it to be enjoyable, the DM just has to bullshit a bunch of house rules that are changeable to his will, I'm not going to enjoy it as much as if I had a simple comprehensive system that we didn't have to fudge as much.

>>49395732

But what if you played sports practically IDENTICAL to basketball except that they were actually more fun due to some shifts in rules or content?

>>49395541
Have you tried like... a regular party, where you just sit around and shoot the shit with your friends? Because, if you don't want to play a game with a consistent set of rules, it sounds like you don't want to play a game at all...

>people actually taking the bait

Trolls trolling trolls. This thread is pretty pathetic, when all is said and done.

Kind of wish everyone would adopt trips.

>>49395794
IDs like on other boards would instantly improve /tg/'s quality a thousandfold

>>49395788
are we talking street ball or are we talking slam ball?

cause one of those is cool but the other is awesome.

>>49395732
I thought you were arguing that you could have fun in any system... fucking retard.

>>49395820
bbal isn't a system tho

it's a life choice

>>49395731
They can get pretty bad.

>>49392932
>It's another "I DON'T LIKE [system] AND YOU SHOULDN'T EITHER!" thread

>has to constantly be reinforced
>any opposition is ridiculed as if it was from ignorance
>plays on people's good intentions
>defended as if it was the gospel

Gee, I wonder what school of thought anti dnd fags came from

>>49393332
>>49393788
>>49395249
I've wondered for a little bit if making casting inherrently MAD would help.

INT giving bonus spells and affecting highest level castable,
WIS remains affecting saves.
CHA affecting spell DCs.

Obviously, the main problem is that there're rediculous numbers of spells that can do dozens of things, and excepting sorcerer-style known-spells, can be swapped out on the fly with a little bit of batman's superpower.

>>49396453
Please, anon, Magus is already MAD enough.

>>49393646
My first DM was enthralled with d20 Modern and kept trying to force us to play it. Eventually I gave up and moved to a group that played Pathfinder when I tried to drink myself to death during a game because of how bad it was. Ended up that Pathfinder was only marginally less shitty. As in 0.100000000001 is marginally higher than 0.1.

>>49392932

Listen man, you're beating a horse that has already rotted away.

Seriously, go home.

>>49392932
Golem magic immunity only applies to spells that allow spell resistance. Most conjuration spells don't

>>49394041

Most people, especially the GM, rarely keep track of the terrain beyond it being an amorphous void where people are just close enough to reach one another in one turn or so.

It makes it shitty sure but D&D, for all the focus it puts on combat, doesn't really present any mechanics that reward player ingenuity beyond big numbers (martials) or spells (mages).

>>49394999

When you're new and the GM is the only one with a book, it can take hours.

>>49392932
>>49392932
We should all know by now that PF is mostly garbage barring a few gems.
Have you tried playing a D&D edition that's actually good? Like OD&D, AD&D1or2e, Basic, 4e D&D, 5e D&D.

>>49393332
Needs a bingo space for "It was better in OD&D/Holmes/Moldvay/Cook/Mentzer/BECMI/AD&D1e/2e"

>>49396453
Could always go back to older editions of D&D where saves aren't DC based but based on the throw of the target.

>>49395988
Rip Ashiel

After years of posting about the issues in pf, and even posting the C/MD bingo poster, they recently got banned and the forums nearly rioted. The mods are full on damage control. I'll link to the thread in a sec

>>49397528
Verily. I've had a whole eight hour session for getting people's characters set up because nobody else would buy a book or go torrent a pdf. Fuck that. Never playing a game without multiple books ever again. Never.

>>49393332

The "Realism" space gets me every time.

>>49397695
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2twkm?Questioning-User-Ban#1

>>49397767
>some transX throws a massive babby fit because they interpreted something that had nothing to do with anything trans-related as an attack on transpeople
>mods go full Kim Jong-Il on everything and ban one of the few posters on the forum that know what they're talking about for questioning why posts were deleted without a word
Congrats on being less professional than GITP mods, Paizo. Holy fuck.

>>49397767
>That line being crossed is a huge issue for my enjoyment of this website - even the usually vilified 4chan is far better at accommodating trans people in my experience.
RIP poster, Paizo death squad incoming.

>>49392932

>Playing game
>One dude is using a bullshit homebrew class
>Tries to call bullshit on me using an archetpe as written instead of with errata

I kind of hate anyone who ever even asks to play their personal homebrew class in a game. If the DM vets a few and lets them through thats one thing, but if you open with "this is my homebrewed class" we all know 9/10 DMs will be too cowardly to properly call you oit on your bullshit class abilities.

>>49397920
At least one person got banned just for asking why ash got banhammered. The scary thing is that the questioning user ban thread still exists

>>49398065
That's not an argument when I can shit up and totally break a game by playing a Master Summoner completely by the rules as intended.

>>49398079
It is for them to identify future problematic members of the community.

People need to realize company forums are just the fucking worst. Even threads companies start on other websites come down to silencing dissenting opinions and promoting whoever sucks the company's cock enough. Every fucking time, they can never be trusted.

>>49397655
to be fair, D&D WAS better before 3rd ed.
Although adnd 2e kind of foreshadowed how 3e would turn out, up until 2e, the game experience was /very/ different to how it's ended up. Certainly, at reasonable levels caster-supremacy was less of an issue in those versions. Then again, it was a totally different playstyle, so you're comparing different things.

>>49398147
Why not pay 5e? It seems a hearkening back to what made d&d good.

>>49392932
The first time I played on roll20.

Funny, play with the same group of guys AD&D 2E and have fun for years, tweaking and houseruling as we went along and talking shit out.

Sometimes the DM used made up or on the spot mechanics because we were doing things that weren't laid out, or at least it was easier and quicker to move the story along than looking shit up.

But the first time an entire session was spent on bitching about other players characters being "optimized" and "useless" respectively and I came to the realization

Hate the Playa not the game.

I wouldn't recommend it as a system to a newcomer. Then again, I wouldn't recommend any system at this point so much again I would finding a group of people who want to have fun with you. You can learn any system eventually, but it seems like bad habits around how to act like a decent human at the table are harder to change.

>>49398202
play*

>>49398147
As an old fart who moved on from 2e, you can fucking have it now.

It caused way more grief and frustration then 3, 3.5, 4 or 5 have caused or will ever cause. 3.5 could end friendships, 2e could get people to renounce family and declare vengeance on entire communities of players.

Do not act like that old fossil is worth dragging back into the spot light.

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>>49392932
>I'm entitled to win every fight and if I don't it's the systems fault.

Literally what?

>>49398215
What's so bad about the system?

>>49398215
Not every DM allowed the Elf book, anon.

>>49392932
>starting third campaign of 3.5, we're all gonna roll new characters

>everyone is sitting around looking at their notes and references, wordlessly

>half an hour goes by, everyone can tell that everyone else isnt into it

>"Hey, wanna order a pizza while I tell you guys about BoL?"

And we never looked back

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>>49398253
The elf book was the most tone-deaf book ever made.

It literally assumed that people reading it were intelligent or would actually roleplay their characters so included equivalent roleplay downsides in return for mechanical upsides.

If there's one thing we've learned, it's that assuming your consumers are even slightly intelligent is a recipe for failure.

>>49398303
At least it wasn't Skills & Powers.

>>49394895

Honestly i dont like how anime most of the "solutions" get simply because it lacks the flavour of the base class. I don't want my fighter to shoot energy beams, i want him to become skilled enoigh to accomplish incredible things, which is why my current pet solution is high-level feats that let the player do things like deflect or rend spells when using magic weapons, because it makes a certain degree of sense for this to work while also mantaining the flavour.

That said, a lot also has to do with how the players engage together- I'm a very passive player and thus enjoy enabling others, so i would be fine with playing a defensive fighter with abilities and feats designed to protect the partt or even prevent enemies from approaching outright, and when i play casyers im usually handing out buffs, not throwing down fireballs, because bull's strength and enlarge person on the enraged barbarian can be just as effective without insisting no, it's my spotlight. I don't have a problem with players who decide to focus on evocation and the like(though i do have to question why you would intentionally hamper yourself like that), but the other direction to fix the dosparity is to brong casting times back into play. Spells that take a minute to cast are way to few and far between in pathfinder and 3.5. if i can escape a horde of orcs by casting fly while running, flying might as well just be something i do. I think wizards would benefit(and players would enjoy tjem more) from having an element of planning added back in.

>>49398263
>cant make it through a half hour of character building

God, Pendragon and Traveler would dry you into shriveled husks if brought into line of sight.

>>49398336
I love it, personally. The group as a whole was just worn out from 3.5's particular brand of clunkiness.

I mean, whatever makes you feel superior

>>49394717

In 3.PF, no amount of feats will keep martials on part with casters at higher level. There simply aren't any sufficiently powerful feats to take, so even a martial with literally every feat is just a giant bag of mid-level tricks none of which really let him compete.

>>49398086

That wasnt an argument, i hadnt read the thread to zee you were all doing the standard "argue about martial/caster balance" thing again yet. Its really weird because op didn't mentiom it at all. I was just bitching about a player in my party wanting to use his fucking homebrew bullshit class.

>>49398459
If you're bitching about 3.X at all it's par for the course.

>>49398215

As a relatively young fuck who picked it up relatively recently, its better than anything since. You just need to sort out your homerules before starting.

>>49397518
Then you had shitty GMs? I always had people that allowed for extra stuff depending on terrain

>>49398215
I'm not actually a massive fan of 2e (or aD&D at all, really). I enjoy the basic line much more, since it's that much more streamlined.
>>49398202
I've not played much 5e, but I quite like it. It's not my go-to edition (that would be becmi), but it's got its own charm.

>>49398692
>I enjoy the basic line much more, since it's that much more streamlined.
If you trim the fat there's not a lot of difference, but you can go the other route too and bolt on 2e mechanics you like to basic.

>>49397920
speaking as a trans person, I wouldn't touch paizo with a ten-foot pole. Oddly enough, I tend to get a little pissed off with some of the arguments about this sort of thing, and I'd quite like to be able to call people who disagree with me cockholes without getting banned for it.
Forcing everybody to be polite (on fear of the banhammer of capricious gods) only results in people who are good at pissing you off politely getting away with it scott-free, whilst the people who are legitimately upset get modded.

Feel free to foam at the mouth about SJWs now.

>>49398753
My understanding of the incident was that the mods were not being capricious and the user in question was being a massive cunt.

>>49398202
5e is still essentially 3.x at it's core, with scaling DCs and all. That's not to say it's a bad system - I find problems with D&D tend to come down more to overall GM approach/campaign context as opposed to specific edition.

If the context of the campaign is dungeoncrawling in deep multi-level dungeons where you can't rest, the wizard's daily spell limits actually become quite significant (and spells like Teleport or Fly are of very situational usefulness in claustrophobic underground corridors) - any edition of D&D does fine at this.

If you're doing a more standard fantasy epic journey where you get one encounter a day, the wizard's limitations are nullified; most editions of D&D are thus pretty poor at this.

>>49394740
What can't a wizard replicate with magic that isn't the direct intervention of a deity?

>>49394973
Yes.

>>49394985
Off the top of my head, a caster could teleport himself and his teammates, use passwall, dimension door, planeshift, or mass etherealize.

a martial pretty much has to hope that the GM has prepared a solution to the problem in advance for them to "figure out".

>>49395131
nobody does terrain, fuck off

>feeling powerful isn't really the point just play a videogame

fucking kek go back to your bedtime stories faggot

>>49395187
DnD is a videogame. Get over it.

>>49395249
Dragon makes save, too many HD, counterspells, has immunity to trip, casts gust of wind, has no magic items to disjoin and all of its abilities are supernatural / extraordinary, has immunity to polymorph including polymorph any object, and has a ward in place that prevents summoning, calling, and all other forms of extradimensional motion or travel.

gee, that was so hard. maybe you should try designing your monsters to not be total fucking pushover experience pinatas you retard.

many high level creatures have superhuman intelligence and wisdom. try playing them that way.

>>49392932

>waaahhh every enemy doesn't crumble at my feet
>this isn't like my japanese animes!

>>49395355
Incorrect, everything that exists only exists to entertain me.

>>49395541
Wrong, the point is to level up your character and beat the game.

Go read a book if you want a story you colossal wannabe community theater actor faggot.

>>49395606
If you're not a cowardly little bitch faggot, yes.

>>49399693
Get your fucking head out of your ass, you goddamn retard.

The dragon is just an example. Will babby cry less if I change the example creature? Because the actual facts of it don't change. The caster still has a million more options then the martial.

>>49397509
Unless the DM creates a golem which simply isn't affected by magic of any kind.

>>49397518
I had an experience once where i was in what amounts to a kickboxing match in a boxing ring. I was allowed to jump to and off the pole on the side holding the ropes together, and slam my knee into the dudes head (who was prone because he picked me up and then fell over), knocking him out instantly.

Terrain is what you make of it.

>>49399745
He doesn't even have to create it in PF
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/golem/golem-clockwork

Okay, so it's affected negatively by a single spell. Rusting grasp. Glad you had that prepared for this surprise combat that you didn't know would happen, did you?

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>>49399655
>DnD is a video game

>>49392932
>it's 6-on-1 and we can't do shit
then run away you fuckwit

>>49395017
Underrated post. Simple truth.

>>49394717
Martials need a high level to take most of the good feats, and they help only marginally.

>>49400480
>We start getting beaten
>Fall back using spells to impede enemy's advance
>Try to use terrain to our advantage and get away
>DM has the enemy hunt us down and exhaust our options than kill us
Yeah fucking right. Not going through that again with this guy.

>>49400507
This tends to be what happens to me, as well.

>>49400507
That sounds like a shitty DM to me.
If my players attempted to run from an enemy I would allow them to escape, not unscathed of course, then depending on the enemy I would have it track them down after an amount of time has passed.
But if it was an animal protecting its nest then there would be no need to have it chase them unless they stole some of its young or something.

>>49400544
It seems like every GM is a shitty GM when they get caught up in the moment of playing the game.

>>49400557
>killing your fleeing players is "getting caught up in the moment"

>>49400544
>not unscathed
And then two players die to the orcs running after them, and you're that shitty GM too.

>>49400571
It's what his characters would do. /s

>>49400574
Do you know what those words mean?
What I'm saying is that they shouldn't get a free get out of jail card.
Maybe one player or more players are injured and need rescuing.
Maybe someone needs to sacrifice themself for the mistakes of the party.

The players shouldn't be allowed to make mistakes and not get punished for them but killing off characters is just completely unfun.
As is shown with >>49400507
>Not going through that again with this guy.

>>49400507
Git gud, crybaby.

>>49400544
>>49400571
You too. Git. Gud.

>>49400642
Here's that (You) you wanted.

>>49400585
But seriously, for some DMs the whole "being the antagonist" thing is real. People wonder where players get the whole treating the DM as the antagonist behavior from, but it's very likely that they ran into one of these guys before. Seriously, though. Cooperative storytelling is about cooperation and storytelling; if you're looking for a strategy/tactics game, they have things like Warmachine or Malifaux that you can play.

>>49399693
>counterspell
>gust of wind
>Supernatural abilities
>wards
Congratulations, you've proven that spells indeed are the solution to everything.

>>49392932
>When did you realize D&D was garbage?
A long fan time ago, but I didn't get off the ride for a while. Thought I could, "fix," it, or at least just have fun with it for a while more.

Final straw came when I was making some magic items, and one that did basically fucking nothing mechanically ended up costing more of a fortune than some of the actual broken shit I've made. Mentioned it to a player, and he basically just said, "Well no fucking duh. The numbers are god-damned arbitrary to the point of brokenness." I'd known, but I'd built up a set of rules I'd put into play to mitigate the arbitrariness of the numbers and this was a corner-case where they just didn't work. I snapped, and I haven't played D&D since.

>>49400849
>Thought I could, "fix," it
I think literally everyone has this phase. Its a sad thing.

>>49400867
It's like loving an old, retarded dog and spending thousands of dollars at the vet for another year of him shitting on the carpet and barking at nothing for an hour straight.

>>49400770
>supernatural abilities
Many martial abilities are considered as supernatural. Monk have a few.
>gust of wind
Its a fucking dragon. It can flap its wings to the same or greater effect.
>Counterspell
I'll give you this one.
>wards
And this one.

>>49395131
>if your dm isn't adjusting things correctly then
...consider if the system isn't making it unnecessarily difficult to run the game. cue in the criticism of D&D and all its direct derivatives

>>49399600
>nobody does terrain, fuck off
Guess I wouldn't want to be a player in one of your games.

>>49401130
What kind of terrain is going to stop a golem?

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>>49401165
Stairs.

>faggots still bumping a troll thread

>>49401056
The issue with that is that no system can perfectly encompass anything a player will or can do.

The DM still needs to decide on what needs done and if its an appropriate challenge and whatnot.

You had a hard encounter go south and you go full cancer?

>I didn't win, game is broken unless I break it first!

>>49401285
Unfortunately, thats the mindset that video games in general foist onto people. They assume tabletop games will be about the same kind of power trip, but then comes the harsh reality that you aren't at the whim of a mostly fair computer, but some guy that can yank your chain as he pleases.

Some can take it, some can't.

>>49401307
I recently sat in a pickup game at a store.

A player would complain about every fucking thing.

That I brought a second fighter instead of my wizard, that the enemies in the level 3 adventure had attacks that caused exhaustion. That the DM questioned their obscene amount of damage they were pulling with their character (playing 5e)...

It confounds me that people play this game, but don't want a challenge or to have everything codified into a "this level has this kind of challenges and never before so you can properly prepare".

>>49398642

It's less laziness and more to do with conservation of detail.

It's much easier to imagine a blank void where people are "close enough" then to design a 30x30 room with furniture, curtains, books, etc. when most players will ignore the appearance of the room in favor of focusing on the battle.

>>49397518
>>49398642
>>49401358
D&D doesn't provide any rules to supplement terrain tactics. You have to improvise them yourself.

>>49399800

see >>49401358

>>49401343
Like i said, thats what video games do.

Also if the DM is questioning your damage, you have severely fucked up unless you can adequately explain. I've had a few instances where the DM forgot power attack, but i think you mean the guy was just cheating his rolls or sheet.

>>49401379
Then get a better DM, because designing a room real quick takes maybe 10 to 15 minutes. It doesn't need a super amount of detail, it just need X amount of blobs that represent what they should. Tables, barrels, things like that. Seriously, if your DM can't even chicken scratch a small room, they are sad as fuck.

My DM set up an entire forest once because he didn't expect me to go up a river. eventually i doubled back, but it took him a few minutes, maybe.

>>49401373
Please, stop trolling.

You sound like one of those dumb ETBA, since you don't even really know the game you hate so much.

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Here are a few easy ways to "fix" pathfinder.

Character Creation.
Pick race. This represents your birth.

Roll 3d6 straight down, do this twice and pick whatever column you think is best. This represents 2 different paths you could have taken in life while growing up.

Pick Class. This represents your focus after growing up.

That eliminates about 90% of people bitching about min maxers breaking the game etc.

Secondly. Your DM needs to restrict shit in his game. Why is it that everyone is fine with restricting classes and races..... yet people throw a bitch fit whenever they restrict spells and magic items?

Do you think Fly will be detrimental to you as a DM? Then take the fucking spell out. It's literally no different than any other kind of restriction the GM puts on the game.

Also, OP sounds like he wants some sort of "I should be able to overcome any challenge the GM presents me"

While some prefer to play this way, there are GMs who create a world, and they populate that shit with stuff that they want to be there.

The world doesn't give a fuck about you. You WILL face unwinnable situations, and have to run back. So then do something else and later go back and beat the shit out of whatever it is that nearly killed you.

If the GM can't provide you with things other things to do, then its the GMs fault. Otherwise find something else to do.

Hey if you don't like it then there are TONS of other games to play. But clearly thousands love pathfinder. Are thing in it "broken"? Sure, but the DM should reserve the right to ban anything that doesn't fit their vision of their world/story/campaign.

FFS people, bitching about it isn't going to change the fact that the game is out there. Just move the fuck on if you don't like it. You have said your peace.

>>49401455
Prove me wrong, faggot.

>>49401457
>That eliminates about 90% of people bitching about min maxers breaking the game etc.
Mostly because it eliminates 90% of the people wanting to play PF.

>>49401457
>Do you think Fly will be detrimental to you as a DM? Then take the fucking spell out

Or use the copious amount of enemies that also fly, or the spells specifically made for flying creatures.

A swarm of bats could be potentially threatening to a level 6 or sorc/wiz or something. especially if they are flying and the ranger is the only one that can help him.

>>49401457
>Roll 3d6 straight down, do this twice and pick whatever column you think is best. This represents 2 different paths you could have taken in life while growing up.
>Pick Class. This represents your focus after growing up.
Dumbest post on /tg/ right now.

>>49392932
First time I played really, I told this story many times
>Roll, according to those present, godly stats: 18, 17, 16, 16, 14, 13
>Go monk because I like pugilists, martial artists and strong and independent warriors who need no equipment and spells
>Pick feats that allow me to hit more (TWF, Imp TWF, Snap Kick, etc)
>Flurry of Misses
>Shitty AC
>Can't grapple and trip even if my life depended on it
>Only thing I'm good at is running
Last game I played with that char (10 years ago and the game lasted like 1) all PCs died but mine, I literally did nothing, punched like 29 times, missed 25, the damage I dealt was ridiculously shit, and enemies ignored me for the whole combat.

>>49401457
3d6 straight down only works in pre-3e because modifiers were not as major or as important

>>49395731
I was banned for asking why TWF and Improved natural attacks didn't work with monks anymore.

I was banned a second time for asking why gunslingers couldn't reload more than 3 bullets per round.

>>49401532
Thats actually a good question. If done properly, reloading a revolver or something would only take around 6 seconds, so i don't see why that wouldn't count for a full round action. 3 for a standard or move, 6 for a full.

>>49393332
Where's the "isn't system fault but your GM's fault for not coming up with new rules to help"?

>>49401500
yours? i concur.

>>49394756
8/10, nice bait.

1. 3.PF advertises itself as something it isn't.
2. Levels, if you say a X level fighter needs the same xp as a X level Wizard, you're saying they're both in the same powerlevel. Don't say it's player/GM's fault for assuming that when it doesnt' happen.
3. Tons of contradictions even in the damn CRB, see grapple rules.
4. Monster's CMB and CMD that make martials ineffective unless it's optimized up to 11 (and doesn't work with all martials)
5. Fuck, this doesnt even worth it, I'm done

>>49401519
I've had the exact opposite experience (with the exception of flurry of misses, one time missing 10 times against a single gargoyle, of which i was the only one capable of real damage). My monk really shines in weird times. Most of them including darkness (because of blind fight). He's got pretty bad stats, with his highest being 16 str and the next three being dex wis, and con to help his crap health and AC.

I've actually managed to grapple though. Broke a dudes neck in pure darkness, as the spell.

Somehow my monk with 10 int and cha became the voice of reason and half the time the face, because our rogue is a tiefling that doesn't quite understand what a rogue does.

One time i intended to non-lethal a bear but crit so hard it died anyways, and it was an attack on reflex because it was attacking our fighter.

all in all, he shines in the weirdest, but oddly most important times.

>>49396453
It wouldn't really matter.
Higher level spells will still be so much more powerful than anything a martial can do, having to sacrifice one more stat (or just going with no-save spells) wouldn't fix anything.

If you want a fix, look at 4e. It's much more balanced - bland, but balanced.

>>49401600
Have a you.

>>49393332

>ROLEplaying
>ROLLplaying

>aka Stormwind fallacy

WHAT

THAT'S NOT WHAT IT MEANS REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>49401630
>It's much more balanced - bland, but balanced.

How the fuck 4e could manage to be blander than half the core classes battle plan being "I full attack" is beyond me.

>>49401749
Becuase it "looks" anoooooon I can't read all that.

>>49401477
That's circular reasoning.

>>49401453

You're missing the point entirely mate.

What I'm saying is, why spent 10-15 minutes designing the battlefield when most players will opt to attack until the enemy is dead anyways?

Those 10-15 minutes could be time spent on campaign shit rather than adding details that nobody will notice during play.

>>49401455

I was wondering when you'd show up again.

How was your ban?

>>49401621
Gonna call bullshit on this.
Monk outdamages no one, you literally deal less damage than anyone with weapon proficiencies, your medium BAB and your MAD do the rest, and your AC is also fucking bullshit unless the wizard uses a mage armor on you at first levels, even so your AC becomes average at best.

>>49392932
never happened to me on 5e DnD

>>49392932
Mate it sounds more like you're just a shit player and you were fighting an encounter that was too high CR for you if you think golems are bullshit. Also what the fuck sorta characters do you even have if something that DR10 adamantine will just mean that you do no damage even without an adamantine weapon?!

>>49401841
I was the only one with DR magic. I never said i did the most damage in general, i'm saying i was the only one able to do actual damage.

I also had improved natural attack, so its not like i was completely inept.

Keep in mind, we're level 6 right now.

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>>49392932

When I played pic.

>>49401902
I should also mention, with a good combination of stats and items, they can get respectable AC at early levels. I currently have 19, and ranks in tumble to get fight defensively and full defense an AC boost.

Technically this is 3.5 but the general idea stays the same.

>>49399813
Except for the fact that spells that don't allow spell resistance still affect the golem normally and that it explodes on death which will natirally hit the martials as theyre the ones who need to get up close, and how it can also be fucked up by indirect spells like just blasting a hole out from underneath it, and as it's a CR 12 creature the wizards would definitely have access to that.

At least learn the system before you shitpost

>>49400459
What about the time when you can't outrun the monster? Even a couple of wolves are capable of outrunning most PCs, and that's not counting the times when the enemy also has some form of flight or supernatural travel.

And god help you if you have a dwarf or a heavy armour character, because you'll have an even harder time getting away

I like all this bitching about anecdotal evidence. I hope one day soon all the people complaining will link the peer reviewed studies they're using instead.

>>49401976
They could also just summon some creatures to fight for them and take the explosion.

>>49401902
>>49401931
The only way this was possible is if you were playing with people with downs, or possible empty chairs, though I doubt empty chairs aren't able to outclass a monk, but maybe they were retarded empty chairs.

>>49401569
>Have to spend 2 feats, take 11 levels on gunslinger and use speciall cartridges that cost 12 GP EACH while also having between 5%-10% of blowing your weapon up
>"It's ok if you can only reload 3 bullets per turn"
It's not ok, rules say you can reload as free action if you do all of the above, they fuckign bended rules backwards for gunsligers to allow them only to spend 3 free actions per turn at best.

Meanwhile casters can speak, cast, move, scratch their nose, bend the laws of the universe, etc at fucking will

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can energy be spent more than once in a situation where you are allowed to pay it?

example: voltaic brawler allows you to pay E when attacking to give him +1/+1 and trample until end of turn

can I do that twice? EE for +2/+2 and trample?

>>49401457
Fuck no

>>49402036
Just really good luck on attack rolls that matter. Nothing more or less.

I miss a fair amount, but doing 2d6 per hit helps.

Should our other people be doing more damage? probably but they are new people to the game for all intents and purposes.

And again, this was one instance against gargoyle's in which me and the fighter could bypass the DR, and our mage dipped out.

I'm not saying i'm out DPSing a fighter. I'm not. I'm just hitting things at the right time to matter.

>>49402057
note i specifically noted revolvers there. For other guns, if you have a cartridge it should never take you more than a round to reload.

>>49401457
Did you forgot that martials NEED optimization? your "fix" actually kills the martials, specially those MAD as fuck

Nobody will chose beyond human, except casters who are SAD and only need 1 good roll

>>49401769
Is it? I'm not seeing the circle.

>>49401651
about time

>>49401749
options in combat are overrated - mulling over options (or trying to understand them) slows combat down more than modifiers or dice-rolling

Having hit locations and things like Shock like GURPS would add to the usefulness of Pathfinder's fighters.

In Pathfinder, a fighter has to rely on his mage if he wants to disable the enemy. Until the opponent's HP hit zero, he can soak up any damage without his ability to fight back being impeded any. You can try to disarm him I guess, but that's often rather risky.

In GURPS, a fighter can try and strike his opponent's arm, leg, or head; it's a risk, but the reward is staggering him, disarming him, or making him fall over, which immediately opens up a new set of options.

>>49402162
That's because you have retards as players, having options is never a bad thing.

>>49402087
Oh, another time, i got off a stunning fist on a cultist that was hanging from a ceiling with shoes of spider climb. Well, since she was hanging there essentially defenseless, our druid said some anime as shit, loosed an arrow, double 20's, and nearly killed the bitch. In trying to get her off the ceiling, i accidentally pile drived her into the ground.

>>49394756
>complaining about a roleplaying system is like picking up a pencil and saying "oh man pencils are awful" just because you drew a bad picture.
No it isn't, you fucking moron. It's like getting in a car and finding it turns like shit and its acceleration and deceleration are awful. Yes, a skilled driver could learn to compensate for that and have a good time driving around time, but it would be even better if the car was just good in the first place rather than bad.

D&D 3.pf is a bad system. The things that it is designed to do (kill things and take their shit) are not balanced between character options even vaguely. It mechanically encourages players to play a thin wedge of the options it presents, but it doesn't clearly signpost this.

>>49395541
>you clearly have a very narrow perception of how roleplaying games work. you keep talking about stuff like it's a video game.
3.pf is a video game. There are reams of mechanics for combat and leveling up and beating monsters and overcoming concrete physical challenges, and approximately zip and zilch for telling stories other than the ones that derive from those.

>>49401457
>That eliminates about 90% of people bitching about min maxers breaking the game etc
You could just kick those min maxers out of your group if you dislike them so much.
Also
>Rolling 3d6
Oh boy I do enjoy playing as someone who on average will have -1 to their modifiers. Or at worst will be a fucking cripple who won't make it past the first encounter unless I he's got an inside out asshole for a face.
Also rule one of tabletop is that for better (but more often for worst) GMs are god and they decide and describe literally everything that happens and the players actions. So it up to them deciding how to form encounters.

>>49402202
I see the pattern in your posts you're basically saying everytime you didn't see problems with monks because you Nat20, or in those lines, every time. Literally pointless to the conversation.

A player shouldn't need to be "lucky" to be useful.

>>49402203
>D&D 3.pf is a bad system. The things that it is designed to do (kill things and take their shit) are not balanced between character options even vaguely. It mechanically encourages players to play a thin wedge of the options it presents, but it doesn't clearly signpost this.
I can only THIS this so much

Fucking ivory tower

>>49402229
I never said anything about me nat 20ing. I'm just saying i'm not fucking inept.

Monks have issues but they aren't fucking unusable. At least not at early levels. Thats something along the lines of soulborn. Hell, get pounce and thats monks biggest issue dealt with, in that their class skills don't synergize.

>>49402162
>options in combat are overrated - mulling over options (or trying to understand them) slows combat down more than modifiers or dice-rolling

Sure, but I wouldn't call it bland (plus you can just make an ubercharger and spend every turn charging in 4e as well, it just requires essentials twinking)

>>49400924
>Many martial abilities are considered as supernatural. Monk have a few.
And those abilities mean jack shit. There are plenty of SU abilities that are just "you grow claws that do less damage" or "you can talk to anyone" they generally aren't as good as spells.

>>49402196
it's like you never had to make a 200 pts GURPS character. it's like D&D players never complained about endless Feat lists.

>>49402291
True enough, but there are precedents. I just figured i'd mention it.

>>49402258
Unchained Monks do much better than Core monks. They are more capable than almost any other martial outside of actual magic users.

>>49402226
I play a Dex 4 Wookie Noble in SW Saga Edition. Grow a pair.

>warrior spends the first half of the game raping everything with his huge phallic sword
>mage sucks it up and plays support while he collects xp

>mage finally gains the upper hand
>"BAWWWWWWWW MAGIC IS SO OVERPOWERED WHY CAN'T I 1-SHOT WIZARDS ANYMORE NERF NERF NERF"

It's like every martial class has a feature to turn the player into a whiny baby.

>>49401519
Why did you take TWF when Flurry of Blows essentially IS TWF. They don't stack.

I'm honestly convinced the reason people hate 3.PF so goddamned much is because they are retarded. Like it's a terrible system unless you use LOADS of 3pp supplements like Legendary X and Dreamscarred Press stuff, then it actually gets pretty good if you want some fun pulpy adventures.

But many of the stories about it I here on /tg/ involve people making up falsehoods, straight up not knowing rules, or their GMs making retarded house rules.

>>49402062
Looks like you are in the wrong neighbourhood friendo.
But, no. At least not in that case. You attack with the brawler, you get the trigger on the stack, and when it resolves, you choose to either pay the amount the effect asks for (in this case exactly one E) or not.
If it would allow to pay more it would say something like "Whenever ~ attacks, you may pay any amount of E. If you do, it gets +X/+X and trample until end of turn, where X is the amount of E spent." or something like that.

>>49402302
This is true, but mostly because the other martials who aren't actual magic users are the fighter, rogue, cavalier, swashbuckler and gunslinger... barbs and slayers are arguably on par (optimized barb is probably higher).

>>49402312
Yes, it's like the game creates and encourages a toxic playing environment. Weird.

>>49402258
>It's a "if you're smart you can ignore rules" episode
And I got you, thanks for playing. Next time try to stretch a little bit more your bait.

>>49402302
True as that may be, it was the first character i'd ever made, and he's worked out well, regardless of the complaints against the class.

>>49402349
Dude, level 6 monk, get 1 level of lion totem barbarian, never look back.

Bam, fast move, flurry, and pounce all in one full attack.

Don't blame me because you are retarded.

>>49402292
I GM Anima, 3.PF,. 4e and 5e. Sure, they can complain at having too many options, but the moment I say "ok, how about I remove all those options" they promptly back off because they know having options is never bad.

>>49402302
>They are more capable than almost any other martial
They're Tier4 at best, which puts them in the same Tier other Martials

>>49402312
The Wizard is mind raping everything from level fucking 1.

Everyone in Pathfinder can be good at killing things. Either through Direct Damage or indirect damage. Only the most pathetic classes (Monk, Swashbuckler, Gunslinger) have a problem with killing CR appropriate threats.

>>49402316
Not him, but they stack in 3e and 3.5, also read Snap Kick, as 3.5 feat. Also read "When did you realize D&D was garbage?" as D&D not PF

>>49402374
Tier 4 is actually high tier for a martial, that's as good as it's going to get without getting 6th level spell casting.

It's not really a bad place to be, Tier 3 is better but Tier 4 is "You can do your job damn well, you can handle a few "off" situations, but there are still some things you just can't contribute to at all in any capacity" It's not a bad place for martial to be in.

vs Tier 5(most martials)

Which is "You're mediocre at your job and you literally can't do anything not relating to your job."

>>49402311
Sounds awful playing a cripple, did you fluff it as your character being the product of generations of inbreeding?
Also SW Saga Edition isn't the same system as PF I don't know how Starwars system works but have a 4 in dex is having -3 on a bunch of rolls,AC,CMD,Reflex and you're fucked if you ever get dex poisoned or catch diseases or curses.

>>49402392
PF is D&D with a couple of stickers stuck on the back.

>>49402361
>get 1 level of lion totem barbarian
You gaing pounce at 3rd level of Barbarian

Also alignment incompatibility, you either lose the ability to keep leveling monk or you lose rage and rage related powers, including pounce. You can't mix them the way you think you can mix them.

>>49392932
I realized D&D was shit when I played my first non-D&D game, frankly, and have never once looked back.

>>49402421
Thats why i said get 6 monk 1 lion totem. 6 monk is the farthest people think monk is worth, if at all, and just one dip into lion totem gets you pounce for only the single level. And boom. Get the twisted charge skill trick and you can basically charge anything, while still flurrying, WITH a +2 bonus.

i'd say thats considerably good, fixing the largest flaw in the monk skill kit, in that you can't fast move and flurry at the same time.

>>49402452
>>49402452
>6 monk 1 lion totem
So no pounce, because you get pounce at 3rd level Barbarian.

>Level 3
>Replaces: This benefit replaces the 1st level fast movement class feature.
>Benefit: Each of these effects is a supernatural ability. Regal and intimidating, the powerful lion is a symbol of nobility among the races of the wild. By selecting him as your spiritual totem, you gain the pounce (MM313) ability at Level 3.

>>49402477
Hey, dumb shit. Lion totem variant. I'm saying that specifically for a reason.

You know that class gets pounce first level right? It replaces fast movement and dodge.

>>49402312
>Sleep
>Color spray

>>49402477
They errata'd?

>>49402452
>>49402361
>Le to play a monk you shouldn't play a monk episode
So your way of proving that monk isn't shit is literally only picking like 5-6 levels of monk and then go barbarian? You understand how of a goalpost moving that argument is? and I'm not even the guy you're arguing with.

>>49402497
>>49402452
>>49402361
I prefer unarmed swordsage to be honest

>>49402239
>not knowing what ivory tower is

Fucking eternally triggered bitch anons. When will they learn?

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>>49399693
>the solution to casters is a caster monster
and
>it has to explicitly be immune or resistant to magic to pose a challenge
good job
anyway, i've brought this up several times before since that image is posted pretty often, but the image designer probably should've used a picture of something other than a dragon, since they're one of those few things on equal footing to a caster (and are also something you won't fight normally, or at most levels)
but ironically, because of their caster-style abilities AND the fact that they can largely ignore everything a martial does too, martials are dumped EVEN LOWER on the food chain when fighting a dragon, unless it's being played as a skyrim-style absolute retard that lets the martials shank it while using absolutely none of its capabilities to fight back.

for the majority of encounters, that image proves true.

>>49402636
Because people don't multiclass to shit in any class besides tier 1's.

Seriously, what kind of stupid shit is that? Isn't it the most obvious thing to take classes that help yours?

And for that matter, get 3 levels of wizard or sorc and you could get enlightened fist, which key's directly off of monk with one of its skills. or 1 of cleric to get divine fist.

Adding that on you'd get fast move, pounce, flurry, spells as touch attacks in a single charge, and even rays as touch attacks in a single charge.

You only can't level in monk SPECIFICALLY. nothing is said about classes that key off of monk.

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>>49402699
Here's a (you)

>>49402636
>You understand how of a goalpost moving that argument is?

Do you understand how big of a faggot you need to be to even be arguing about this shit in the first place? Like you think it's that important?

And no, it's not moving goalposts, it's showing you up in a way you don't like, which is why you're so frustrated.

Also, not the guy you're arguing with.

>>49402736
Wizard, clerics and druids can stay in the classes till 20th level, logically other classes should be good enough to stay in their class and be as relevant without multiclassing (which can fuck you up with multiclass xp penalties, alignment restrictions, etc). Your Monk/Barb for example would fuck you up sideways in so many forms, not only you won't be able to keep leveling in monk, you also (if you aren't human) will get XP penalties, etc.

>b-but you should ignore alignment restrictions etc
Not everybody uses your homerules, actual rules shouldn't be dependant on the GM's metaknowledge

>>49402816
Thats fucking backwards and completely removes the point of multiclassing and prestige classes.

Logically, it should be the other way around, and that going to 20 in a single class should NOT be the optimal path.

>>49402785
>Monk is ok, see my unarmed swordsage?, it performs greatly, therefore monk is ok
Monk is not ok if you need other classes to make it ok

Also, not even the other two guys you're arguing with

>>49402784
Congrats, you posted the image that shows you don't know what they fuck you're talking about.

It's Cook talking six years in retrospect about something that only applied to the PH, and ultimately didn't hold true because there were subsequent splatbooks (along with internet articles and licensed third-party published guidebooks) that did explain the various options and when it was appropriate to use them. We're talking about class specific splats that explain not only how to build a character using the rules as provided, but listed options for DM's to create their own features like custom spells and weapons.

It's a catchy name, and people like to confuse it with trap options because they're discussed in that same page, but not only is it not what you thought it was, it's not even all that relevant to the system.

So, you can now hang your head in shame.
You might also want to screencap this, just in case someone else is as stupid as you were five minutes ago and you'll need to quickly educate them, since you really shouldn't want anyone to go on being as dumb as you were, because that was really fucking dumb.

>>49402834
Maybe it's backwards, but sadly that's how it works with tier1 and 2 casters.

Also I don't think multiclass should be outright better, different, yes, but not better. You should be able to get stuff you like and be as relevant as if you didn't multiclass. Same with PrCs.

>>49402845
If someone provides an answer, and you don't like it because it fucks you up, and so you have to try and constrain the argument, all you're doing is trying to figure out how to not lose, not how to learn something about the system.

That's what makes you a trolling shitposter, and why no one has to take you seriously.

Also, I'm a sixth person joining in.

>>49399693
And that's how you've highlighted the core of the problem. You had to come up with nine contingencies so the wizard can't just end the encounter with a spell, while you need literally zero to prepare for the martial. Immunity to polymorph? Doesn't need one, since fighter doesn't have access to that. Able to prevent teleportation? Doesn't need one, since fighter doesn't have access to that. And so on, and so on, and so on.

That's the source of all problems, that you need to think of several ways how to keep a wizard solving the challenge, while to shut down a martial just a pit that is sorta deep is more than enough.

>>49402852
>Splats fixed monk, fighter, samurai, etc
Ha fucking ha
No, splats didn't fix martials but for ToB, which actually released NEW martials, it only kept improving casters by giving them new and broken spells, animal companions, familiars, etc.

It's an ivory tower because it force you to keep gaining game mastery till you only play a small array of options like in Mtg.

>>49402875
K, while i agree with multiclass in that, PrC's should in some way be better than the base classes. They do have requirements and are specialized for one thing or another. Many key off of other classes.

If a PrC isn't at least a little better, there's no reason to take them.

>>49402914
>still not understanding Ivory Tower

Fuck, hate does make people blind.
Cool bitching, but if you actually want people to argue with you and not just call you a faggot, you might want to try not being retarded.

Peace out, nigga.

>>49401439
Dont blame that shit on videofames, they are often harder than tabletop and require much more failure before success.

>>49402937
What the fuck are you even talking about? Are you seriously hinging on the semantic interpretation of Ivory Tower design in order to defend D&D? Is there nothing else for you to use anymore?

>>49402933
Better is a term I don't like, it can be better for you (because you like the features you see and improve aspects of the character you want to improve) but maybe another player doesn't care in those aspects and prefers to improve others that the main class improves. Dunno if I explain mayself correctly.

Like alchemist archetypes in PF, alchemist gets bombs, mutagens, potions and poisons, you have an archetype that improves bombs, but hinders the rest, or improves mutagens and hinders the rest, etc. No one should be outright better than the base alchemist, only different, if you want to be a bomber sure, bombardier looks better for you, but it doesn't look better for a guy who wants to be ok at all 4.

>>49402969
That's how these threads work, Paizofags and 3aboos have to grasp straws to win arguments, see the later "muh semanthics" and "don't play monk to be a good monk" posts

>>49402914
Ivory Tower is about providing options without providing explanations. That was largely to keep the core books from being overladen with too much information, and for them to serve as easy references for looking up the abilities, without having to trudge through dense explanations of when it's best to use them. The idea was that kind of information could be left to other books and sources.

Even though this advice wasn't present in the Player's Handbook (with Cook calling this Ivory Tower Design), this type of advice was present in books like Song and Silence or Tomb and Blood as well as even in the DM's Guide.

Ivory Tower is such a non-issue, that's it's embarrassing to see people bring it up.

>>49402983
Better is a varied term, but PrC's should be more effective in whatever the specialize in or what they improve over a base class.

Either way, going 20 in a base class probably shouldn't be optimum. Usable, but not optimum.

>>49402969
>>49402996
Wow, look at you eternally triggered bitch anons. Suck each others dicks all you want, but that doesn't stop you from being idiots who don't even understand what you eternally bitch about.

Fuck, how much of your lives are wasted complaining about a sixteen year old game, that is still going to be popular no matter how much you bitch about it?

>>49402996
>>49402969
You're so eternally triggered bitch anons it's kind of sad. It isn't, it's amusing and deligthful watching you cry.

>>49402998
That's not Ivory Tower game design. Ivory Tower game design is specifically leaving a massive variance in effectiveness between options without any indication of what is better or not. It's based on the idea of MTG having cards that appeal to Timmy, Spike, and Johnny and different rarities having different power levels. Even though it doesn't have rarities D&D has a series of splat books and the principle means scouring all of them to find the content you want with no set organizational or indication of functionality.

4e fixed this and 3.5 players hated it because they enjoy the metagame of character building.

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>>49403042
>>49403052
Getting pretty desperate. Nothing left to defend D&D with?

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>>49395793
Haha, why do people like you who don't grasp the point of a Roleplaying game even come to the table? Top kek

>>49403077
Lets not fool ourselves, they're still better and worse options in 4e, and sometimes they line between them isn't so clear. It's more balanced than 3.5, but it isn't perfectly balanced in that whatever you pick will be as good as whatever another anon picked (assuming you want to be the same role)

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>>49403078
I laugh at this shit because I don't have to defend anything. I have fun, and people who hate my edition and who claim that I'm not having fun are funny.

I've playe3d plenty of games, ran plenty of games, and I'm enjoying playing with this one.

That you can't cope with my fun is appalling and amusing in a horrifying way.

>>49392932
When /tg/ wouldn't shut the fuck up about it and couldn't stop telling everyone how bad it is. So shut the fuck up already.

>>49403078
How about "You'll never be able to convince anyone it's a bad game just by bitching about nonissues and pretending they're not nonissues?"

Kind of puts you in a corner.
A corner that you're going to try to bitch out of, which just puts you deeper into that corner.

Life really must suck for the eternally triggered.

>>49403077
> Ivory Tower game design is specifically leaving a massive variance in effectiveness between options without any indication of what is better or not

DId you not even read that image that was posted?

Please, don't make a fool of yourself just because you're desperately looking for things to hate.

>>49403138
>le epic troll xD
Fuck off retard.

>>49403182
>wah, someone's schooling me in my troll thread!

You ETBA are so pathetic.

>>49403138
>>49403157
>they bring the fun argument
That's actually a nonissue
You can have fun with a flawed system, but flaws aren't what makes the system fun, same system without those flaws should be even funner

Or do you actually like caster supremacy and is that what makes the game fun for you? Nothing wrong with that, see Mage, but unlike Mage, 3.PF advertises itself as balanced

>>49403223
>Caster supremacy
It.doesn't.exist ;^)

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>>49403237
>tfw you know this is bait but you also know that some 3aboos sincerely believe this

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>>49403078
Name one reason I need to defend D&D from people.

>it sells
>people play it
>there's usually one or another version in every single game store ever
>most rules are online for free
>people have fun with it
>people are aware it's broken and don't care
>most people even play other games and still play D&D too
>as though you're not forced to play things you don't have to
>unless you're incapable of finding people to play other stuff
>in the age of fucking technology
>which just makes you helpless and whiny instead of alone


Really, no one has to defend anything. You just want them to so you can ontionue to prove yourself "right" about "badwrongfun".

Which is and always will be an opinion, not a fact.

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>>49402998
What's up with this non-argument? Is this a new meme? Ivory Tower design is still bullshit even if you go with this marginally different definition. Providing options without explaining them properly or doing so in a misleading way is a mistake on the part of the writers that leads to the problems so many people encounter with D&D.

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>>49403223
Show me one advertisement where it says "PF is balanced".

That was a claim made by PLAYERS.

>>49403269
>It's popular so it's good.

>>49403291
>I can't actually read.
>Like, I'm totally illiterate.
>Words make no sense.

>>49393788

ToB is 3.5 first party.

>>49403289
The CR system.

>>49403317
Sorry to hear that, anon.

>>49403289
Levels.
It takes the same XP a druid and a fighter to reach Xth level, they also gain XPs at the same speed and for the same level of difficulty, that means they are both equally powerful, which is a big damn lie.

>>49403317
Who are you quoting?

>>49403326
Paizo should read this.

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>>49403223
>That's actually a nonissue

Do you even understand what a nonissue is?

We're not talking about "a majority of people have difficulty having fun with this system", we're talking about "a majority of people don't give a fuck about your needling complaints that don't really impact the game to any tremendous degree."

It's like you're complaining about their being limited trunk space in a sports car. Cool complaint, but with most people not giving a shit, you're really just bitching senselessly.

But do go on and try to tell people about all those nonissues that are either easily fixed, ignorable, or not even really issues to begin with. Like, it's nice watching you parrot shit like that in hopes of getting people to stop playing the game, but the funny thing is most people will just say "Okay, I'll look out for that" or "Good thing there's a patch for that" or simply "That's not even a problem, what a retard."

>>49403317
I shed a tear for you

>>49403291
>ha ha, I can ignore everything and look like a faggot!

Ha ha, look at this faggot.

>>49403334
Most people use it wrong.

In the back of the monster books there are tables definite monsters by the role they play as antagonists to the party. CR is one part of the equation. the other part is using the proper role to challenge the kind off players - not characters, players - you are working with.

Just saying that most people can't actually read books properly anymore and thus don't have the whole story. The CR system is balanced in a straight monster vs character system - if you include the role of the monster in the equation. If you don't then you end up with casters fighting things with no magic, and fighter trying to outskill monsters based solely around skills.

>DM throws an encounter at party that obviously does not have any means to deal with it
>Blame the game

You realize it's the DM's fault, right?
Unless your DM is mentally disabled he should make sure the encounters are fun and are actually doable, even if they are challenging.

>>49403353
>it's popular so it's good

>>49403342
The person who somehow thinks that the post ever said D&D was good, which is never stated - or even implied.

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>>49393304
>why would your game master throw something at you when you have no hope of winning, shits not right
Well as someone who preferrs DMing over running a PC, I want to see the PC win, I want to elevate the PC's to heroic status within the given world, but on that same note I need to be able to justify that reputation, and that often means battling powerful enemies and/or overwhelming numbers. So I get that, however, both Pathfinder's core book, and the Ultimate Campaign book set guidelines on how much of a APL/CR disparity you can really push before it becomes really unfair.

However! as noted in other posts, sometimes you want to throw some insurmountable enemy at the party to put some fear in them with the plan that they would run the fuck away, Or the PC's blundered into an encounter you had planned them to face MUCH, much later on, again I get that, but I don't understand then cornering the party so their only option is to fight it, a fight the GM already knew they couldn't hope to win.

tl;dr: Either give them a challenge they should in theory be able to defeat, or let the party get away if you know they can't defeat it. Anything less is just being an ass.
and there is no excuse for not knowing what the PC can and cannot do as you are likely the one holding onto the character sheets between sessions, you had that whole time to look over their sheets, so no excuses.

>>49403372
>i don't like it so its bad
>it's not perfect so it upsets me

Oh, eternally triggered, how much of a bitch you are.

>>49403371
A group of druids or clerics will always perform better than a group of [insert whatever martial you want here] in any field forever.

If that isn't a problem.

>>49403394
>Wow, you don't like something and think it's bad?
>Triggered much? Cuck? Bitch?

>>49403269
>>it sells
brand loyalty/recognition

>people are aware it's broken and don't care
you're a fucking liar: >>49399585
>inb4 PF

>>49403412
Wow, you don't like something and think it's bad?
Triggered much? Cuck? Bitch?

>>49403121
let me get this straight. You don't want there to be a real game in the sense that the rules aren't really codified, they're just sort of being pulled out of the DM's ass, so there's almost no risk of failure. You want to sit around with friends and construct this story, rather than actually playing the game. It sounds to me like you want to join a book club or something.

>>49403409
Are you playing WoW or are you playing a roleplaying game?

Nothing wrong with min/maxing if you like playing that way, but it's not required to have fun.
A group of martials can have just as much fun, it just requires the DM to actually be somewhat competent.

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>>49403394
>i don't like it and here's why
>lol you're just bitching
>never prove the point wrong
I like how the only people defending D&D are trolls using non-arguments.

>>49403353
>We're not talking about "a majority of people have difficulty having fun with this system", we're talking about "a majority of people don't give a fuck about your needling complaints that don't really impact the game to any tremendous degree."
>>49399585
i understand that your just an asshole, don't worry

>all those nonissues that are either easily fixed, ignorable, or not even really issues to begin with
uh-huh

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Let's finally kill this shitty thread.

>>49403449
>Are you playing WoW or are you playing a roleplaying game?
Neither, I'm playing Dungeons and Dragons, a game whose mechanical lineage derives from editions where you got experience for taking people's stuff, and who in its present form still gives you experience for beating people up.

The game is about fighting dragons and navigating dungeons (thus the name). It's also not particularly good at it.

>>49403477
a new one will pop up again soonly, don't worry.

>>49403467
Also see >>49283444

>>49403449
Literally Stormwind fallacy.

>>49403449
>Druid
>Minmaxing
Ligerally PHB/CBR Druid with whatever is always going to be better than a fighter because it has a fighter as class feature, on top of turning into a fighter and casting spells

>>49403461
>never prove the point wrong

It's proven wrong every day, innately.

There is no complaint you can make that can't be fixed, ignored, or debated against to say it's not even an issue to begin with.

And, to prove they're all just nonissues, take a look at how many people treat them as nonissues. All your biggest, most dramatic complaints and condemnations are still just subjective at best, and most people disagree with them.

You literally can't deny that they're nonissues when people prove you wrong everyday.

>>49397767
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21204507&postcount=20

These are the posts that got Ashiel banned, apparently? What the hell? This is the most inoffensive stuff I've ever read.

>>49403467
>>49403497
>implying they're not easily fixed

Options have already been provided.
How does it feel to work against your own argument?

Must make you feel like a dumb bitch.

>>49403555
Isn't "can be fixed" admitting that an issue exists?

Cause if it wasn't an issue it wouldn't need fixing.

>>49401841
Monk has literally one of the strongest level 1 builds.

Human Monk 1
Feats:
Flying Kick, Lion Tribe Warrior
2d6+2d12 damage on a charge, presto

>>49403542
>if you ignore the problems it's exactly as though there aren't any
Fuck off, retard.

>>49403573
No one said to ignore problems. It's just not to treat them like they're a big deal if they're not.

You're still complaining about things that are pretty minor, where even a few small tweaks completely obliterates any arguments you try to present.

Must suck to be on the "bitching" side.

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>>49403605
>Martial/Caster disparity can be obliterated with 'a few small tweaks'

>>49403570
Yes, issues exist. No one ever said any game was perfect.

If your entire argument is "if a game has any flaws, no matter how easily fixed they might be, it's bad", then there are no good games.

>>49403605
>No one said to ignore problems.

>>49403542
>There is no complaint you can make that can't be fixed, ignored, or debated against
>can't be fixed, ignored, or debated against
>ignored
This retard clearly said it.

>>49403613
Yes.

>>49403623
No one said to ignore ALL problems.

Happy?

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>>49403624
Prove it.

>>49403624
How? I'm very interested in your miraculous fix.

This thread makes me glad all the groups I found for D&D fell apart before session 1. I'm just going to give up on that one now.

>>49403624
Then why no one ever was able to do it before? are you a wizard of the coast?

>>49403571
You need power attack for Flying Kick

>>49403642
E6.

Spell points and forced spontaneous casters.

>>49403684
Pick the monk variant that provides it, obviously

>>49403646
See? Something positive came out of this thread.

>>49403711
>>49403571
Sounds cool, you're still MAD and you'll die the moment the enemy turn goes but sounds cool

>>49403642
>>49403645
Why? It's kind of subjective, so the fix I might suggest might not work for you, or might not suit your needs.

In fact, I'm certain regardless of what method I suggest, you're going to take the extreme stance where it is an issue for you.

Either way, the ultimate proof is pretty simple. People play, and the disparity isn't that big an issue to make them stop playing. There's no guns against their heads, and 5e is available and popular and easy to learn, so there goes most of your arguments about them only playing it because it's popular or it's too hard to learn a new system or brand loyalty or really anything you guys parrot like you think everyone who still plays 3.X is somehow not doing so by preference.

>>49403775
Because I'm trapped in a core only 3.5 game and it's nearing the point where the monk I'm playing becomes more useless than he already is. I'm genuinely interested in your fix.

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>>49403775
>Caster/martial disparity can easily be fixed
>How?
>I DON'T HAVE TO TELL YOU ANYTHING I'M STILL HAVING FUN

>>49403695
Doesn't do shit.