/wmh/ Warmachine and Hordes General - The Wait to Theme Lists

The triumphant return!

Of Skorne bitching.

There's a phenomenal Tiberion resculpt out next month but I already own one. Feels bad.

Why is skorne so weak?

>>49350893
Skorne in Mk3 as summarized by anon:

>Fury Management
Condition on beasthandlers got nerfed so there is less fury management
Enrage no longer gives free charges and Skorne now has no access to free charges
Titans had their fury reduced

>Defensive stats
Titans had their def reduced by 2
Cataphracts lost 3 boxes

>Animus
Far Strike became self only
Fatewalker got worse
Krea bubble lost its Arm bonus
Skorne gained Spiny Growth but Spiny Growth became self only
Sentry lost Locker

Losing theme forces hurt Cataphract play or usage
Morg2 got his feat back but lost a few rules (like immunity to CMA/CRA) and traded out Silence of Death (which got buffed in Mk3) for a shitty nuke
Makeda1 randomly lost Combo-Strike, Defender's Ward and traded Savagery for Quicken
Makeda2 lost Road to War and Leash
So now only Mak1/Morg1/Xerxis2 can buff speed
Spell slave can't cast upkeeps anymore so Marketh is now pretty costly for something of debatable use
Xerxis1 lost Inhospitable Ground for Rift
Mobility went up in cost which hurts Xerxis2's gameplay
Croak raiders got nerfed
Gators got nerfed
Archidon is shit
Rhinodon is shit
Bog Trog Ambushers got nerfed
Hakaar doesn't count as an Ancestral Guardian anymore so Zaal can't Direct Spirits to him
Zaal traded Invioable Resolve for a spell that makes models undead (hence no longer producing souls for him/his guardians)

There's tons more and PP even admitted in an AMA they basically have no idea what they are doing with Skorne.

>>49350893
They're a counterpunch faction - that does a worse job of counterpunching than Trolls.

What are people's thoughts on Convergence?

>>49350950
It's worth noting that all this is in the context of gunlines being the dominant archetype in the game because of overbuffing of a lot of ranged stuff.

If the primary question was who can do Rock 'Em Sock 'Em Robots the best Skorne would at least have something resembling a game.

>>49351046
Totally fine. Other than the change to induction and iron mom being cool now not much changed.

>>49351296
Awesome, fairing better than my beloved Cryx then. Found myself a new army.

>>49350893

Game got released early. They're balanced with a bunch of models and rules that hasn't seen play outside in-house playtest tables and won't for months and months yet.

>>49350624
I love this game.

When will /wmh/ general become better than the official forums? Because it used to be, but its just Skorne tears right now.

>>49352211
You're gonna see it get much worse when the Command books start releasing - they aren't all releasing at the same time, aren't all gonna be the same size, not all factions will get the same amount of sub books and theme forces are only being released with the release of the book.

So for example, Cygnar, Menoth and Trolls will each get their books in the Nov-Dec area. They'll get new units, new solos, new jacks, new casters and access to theme lists. Someone like Retribution is gonna have to wait until the spring.

>>49352395
It's a very GW sounding release schedule.

>>49352447

I hate to agree, but I must. One thing I liked about the MKII books was that they had stuff for everyone that wasn't a limited release faction, so everyone had something to look forward to. And as much as I love PP, quick turn-around on product isn't their strong suit - look what happened to the original four-book release schedule for the Iron Kingdoms line.

>>49350950
>Croak raiders got nerfed
>Gators got nerfed
>Bog Trog Ambushers got nerfed

Gator player who bitched last thread, I'm glad someone else noticed. At least we got some buffs (let's just put tough on goddamn everybody). I feel like a lot of Skorne lists will be Minion heavy if they go infantry at all. No KD tough (Slaughterhousers, Gators, Brigands) might be good under Rasheth of Noodlearms. Effective POW 16 brigands are a thing, and you can RNG to victory.

At least from the outside looking in that's how it looks. I was going to pick Skorne up for Chan Gang before the edition change, and if feels like what I wanted to do got fucked.

>>49352447
Well its what they are trying out for approximately the next 5 years. If it gets too bad they'll probably switch back.

>>49352701
I hear ya, I was just considering investing in some Raiders for a new frog based list then this happened.

Rasheth came out ahead and desu you could run him without a tier and still do well. But its an uphill battle this edition.

JUSTICE FOR CRYX

>>49352701
To be fair, Gators in Mk2 were far and away the best medium base unit in the game.

Like, it was insane how good they were.

>>49353849
To be fair to him, Warders were good, Skinwalkers were good after the alpha and Cataphracts in general all saw play as competitive alternatives to Gators. Shame what happened to Skorne there really.

Just picked up a Lylyth Battlebox to start playing Legion. What should I buy?

>>49354006
Cataphracts only saw play in Fist or in lists where you needed FF stuff to work, like Revive.

>>49354006

Shame about gunlines, you mean.

If you could wrap them around a krea they'd be fine. If there was no urgent reason to wrap them around a krea they'd be fine.

When the nerf bat comes around, swung so hard peoples grandpas will have turned out to have died of toothache, they'll all be back.

>>49354124
What do you want out of Legion? Beasts? Blue elves and angry ogrun? A little bit of both?

For Lylyth 1 I would recommend grabbing Nyss Archers, Ravagore and Nephilim Bolt Thrower.

>>49352564
Welp the biggest issue I had with compilation books was that everyone got x unit or y solo even if they didn't need one or have ridiculous competition for those slots.

So everyone got a junior, but only a couple of factions would actually want to field their new one.

Everyone got cavalry, but most did not end up being used for most of MKII.

Compilation books are another item on the list of things that seem cool, but really arent. Towards the end of MKII you could tell that PP was starting to adopt that mindset too...

Especially on Hordes side

>>49352564
This is identical to the mk2 forces of books.

Mk2 saw the forces of books released about 1 per month and those books introduced new units and casters and theme lists exactly like the mk3 ones will. Why did you expect mk3 to be different?

>So, regarding the overall discussion let me just say this:
>Our heads are not in the sand. We are paying attention to feedback posted here, emailed in, tournament results, league participation data, etc. I cannot tell you how many of my own "off duty" hours I've spent reading the Warmachine reddit, 4chan, various FB groups, so on and so forth. Point is, the concerns and the congratulations, the criticism and the praise, it isn't being ignored.
>We are reviewing a tremendous amount of information, and many things are being tested at the moment. We are very excited for the first round of dynamic updates. As soon as something concrete exists to say regarding them: estimated date of release, content, design decisions, etc you can be sure we will. Until then, know that it is being worked on and that your voices are being heard.
>Also, to avoid misconception, note that doesn't mean that every piece of feedback we get is implemented by any means or ever will be. We, like many of you, are looking at the big picture of the game and ensuring that we are going to deliver the best wargaming experience possible.
>TL DR We also like things that are fun.

PP confirmed for not liking Cryx or Skorne.

>>49354159
So get Mk.III Legion box and a Heavy beast. (I hate infantry....hate playing them and playing against them.)

>>49354661
Look into Absylonia 2 too then. Also even if you hate infantry, how do you feel about Strider Deathstalkers? 4 point sniper solos that work wonders.

>>49354580
Wait, they come here?

>>49354754
Abby 2 looks nice (though it's a bit of an investment for a warcaster $-wise) Deathstalkers are decent looking too.

>>49354774
Abby 2 is actually medium based. Larger model than you would expect.

>>49354769
Hungerford could be watching me shitpost about Skorne at this very moment.

>>49354781
Any news on Fyanna 2? or any of the warlocks for that matter?

>>49354785
I fucking hope they are, where are my half plastic trolls calvalry. At least I can use tuffalo's to knock out home intruders.

>>49354769
I kind of hope they do.

I mean, 4chan has some flaws as a medium for discussion, but I think it can provide an unfiltered viewpoint that places like forums or reddit never could.

>>49354797
Last I heard the guy that was painting Una2 at the latest con said something along the lines of "Una2 will want to take birds."

Thats it. All the news I know of.

>>49354820
There's a rumor for her spell list, which is insane.

However, if she can only take birds, it's pretty bad.

Anyone want to buy a whole buncha cephalyx?
30 of each infantry type
3 agitators
unit of overlords
wrecker+warden
both casters
looking for about 300-325 beaverbux, if anyone wants it I'd split shipping to whereever

>>49354785
>>49354814
But they know that /wmg/ is shit at the game, right?

>>49354862
Have you seen some of the staff lists and battle reports? We're kindred spirits.

>>49354862
I mean, in general, sure. You can't exactly take everything said here as gospel truth.

But there's some pretty valid balance points raised here, and you don't have to raise it under some veneer of being polite or supportive of the game.

>>49354769
Yes.
Did you notice how much more discrete Matt Wilson has been about his dragon dildo collection?

>>49351620
Releases will not balance Skorne. A rework will balance Skorne.

>>49354580
Hungerford might be reading our shitfest of a thread. Makes me feel fuzzy inside.

>>49354182
>Welp the biggest issue I had with compilation books was that everyone got x unit or y solo even if they didn't need one or have ridiculous competition for those slots.
People got different releases though.

Only time that factions got simultaneous entries were when new type of model was being introduced per faction and casters.

>>49354814
Well, you get banned from the forums for disliking stuff.

My ban lifts today.

>>49350893
>Why is skorne so weak?

>Infantry
All Skorne infantry is bad. Karax can tarpit fine, Nihilators can sort of tarpit while being able to mow down infantry, and Cetrati with Xerxis1 and an Agonizer are a great brick, but every other unit is bad. Outright bad.

>Lessers
Reptile Hounds are still bad. You also only get 1 card per 2 hounds when they need a spiral each. Agonizer is great though.

>Lights
All unplayable. This is not a joke and/or dank maymay.

>Heavies
Gladiator, Cannoneer, Bronzeback if you need to manage fury, maybe Karn if you're using a Makeda, maybe Tiberion if you're using a Xerxis. Everything else is bad.

>Mammoth
Average.

>Warlocks
Skorne warlocks do not have a gameplan. They do not have high synergy with one particular unit, beast, or gameplan, aside from maybe Xerxis1 having Defender's Ward and plans for Cetrati. There is very little reason to pick one over another. None stand out, they're all medium power level or just bad. There are no good feats in Skorne.

tl;dr, Skorne is a mixture of bad models and lack of gameplans. Morghoul2 has a plan. He's also the worst warlock in the game.

>>49356943
>Infantry
>All Skorne infantry is bad. Karax can tarpit fine, Nihilators can sort of tarpit while being able to mow down infantry, and Cetrati with Xerxis1 and an Agonizer are a great brick, but every other unit is bad. Outright bad.
Reivers might be our best unit. Either that or second best after Karax. Bloodrunners can be good too. Right on the rest though.
>Lessers
>Reptile Hounds are still bad. You also only get 1 card per 2 hounds when they need a spiral each. Agonizer is great though.
Agonizer is a bit expensive for how situational he is. But he's essential to our game plan and that's more than you can say about most of our pieces.
>Lights
>All unplayable. This is not a joke and/or dank maymay.
The Brute is okay.
>Heavies
>Gladiator, Cannoneer, Bronzeback if you need to manage fury, maybe Karn if you're using a Makeda, maybe Tiberion if you're using a Xerxis. Everything else is bad.
Fuck the Bronzeback and Molik. Aradus Soldiers are nice though. The rest is again spot on.
>Mammoth
>Average
Yup.
>Warlocks
>Skorne warlocks do not have a gameplan. They do not have high synergy with one particular unit, beast, or gameplan, aside from maybe Xerxis1 having Defender's Ward and plans for Cetrati. There is very little reason to pick one over another. None stand out, they're all medium power level or just bad. There are no good feats in Skorne.
Rasheth is also good and coherently designed. But yes, that's it.
>tl;dr, Skorne is a mixture of bad models and lack of gameplans. Morghoul2 has a plan. He's also the worst warlock in the game.
Sad but true.

>>49356943
Skorne has the same amount of dud options that most other factions have, if you wanted to play the averages game.

I would say that Skorne's greatest hits are not as good as other faction's, and I think that's the main issue. There's also the thing where Skorne doesn't pose a super hard challenge to opponents. When I'm building lists I'm thinking about if I can handle khador, cygnar, and ret shooting, wurmwood, and Madrak 2. I'm sure there's some other fresh bullshit out there, and it'll take some kind of retooling of options.

That isn't to say Skorne can't respond; the aradii and carapace are obviously okay into shooting, and a mammoth under defenders ward is pretty mean. Everyone seems pretty stoked about the ferox, but everything about buying, painting, and packing those things looks awful. I'm still a little butthurt that reivers, ferox, and karax are actually good, but those are the things no one wanted to own last edition.

>>49357411
>Skorne has the same amount of dud options that most other factions have
How many does Ret have for example? One? Two may I dare say?

>>49354820
Hm, yeah. Maybe TUna'll come out simultaneous with some bird heavy? ....here's hoping.

>>49354844
>There's a rumor for her spell list, which is insane.
I'm pretty sure that rumor came from Menoth John. Which means it should be taken with probably an entire shaker of salt.

>>49357457
How many do Cygnar and Cryx have? Or minions? Ret's internal balance is good, doesn't mean you're gonna see ellowyr swordsman soon or half their lights.

>>49354884
If anything they should be listening to us more because we're not filtered through moderators or rules or pretensions of being polite.

You hear that Hungerford? Kossites suck dick.

>>49357595
Cygnar has Precursors. Do minions have any at all?

>>49357598
I dunno man. 2 units with sorscha 1 for 22 points. One has stealth one ambushes, and her stationary garbage lets them actually hit stuff. There are worse ways to fill out bodies.

What's the actual point of lights? They can't crack armour, and infantry clears out grunts better.

>>49357654
Gator posse took a big hit, but just because they're not arguably the best heavy infantry in the game any more doesn't mean they're bad. I'm not sure who wants to run them though, I'm not familiar enough eith the factio in mk3. Minions (and mercs) look pretty solid overall which is really cool.

>>49357411
Don't totally agree. I think Skorne has a few too many "duds", especially in the caster department. I do agree that they're not without options.

Of the new shinies, I think Karax are going to end up being the biggest deal, long term. Skorne is one of the only factions that can still spam infantry effectively, and that's probably going to be their way forward.

Karax are, point for point, one of the best infantry in the game. For approx the cost of Ferox you get two full units. You could do a lot worse than just starting every list with 20 Karax that you run forward on T1 and say "Deal with this while the rest of my list moves up".

>>49357711
A lot of them take cool support roles like shield guards or bring a nifty gun or something. They also tend to be fast channeling nodes. In hordes they're a cheap source of fury and animi and that can be really helpful.

>>49357753
>Gator posse took a big hit
Gator Posse took a HUGE hit, but then again they got access to Defender's Ward in faction. Helga's very happy to bring along a unit of these guys.

I don't think the minion community has really even begun to dig in to all the crazyness that removing pacts opened up.

>>49357711
>What's the actual point of lights?
It varies faction to faction. Some factions have lights that actually do a ton of work without any extra help (cygnar or cryx). Others have battlegroup-wide buffs that are more efficient with a lot of models (Sloan, Carver, Kromac2). And quite a few lights fill a utility function that nothing else does, like shield guard, Rush, Primal, etc.

>>49357711
Good lights provide utility, spot removal or fire support.

The charger is a good light, it wont kill a heavy or a whole unit on its own, but that solo its looking at might just have a bad day, and it will take more than a solo to kill it off. At 9 points its more expensive than a solo but cheaper than most units.

If your only metric for a models value is its ability to kill other models in some kind of weird vacuum of 1 on 1 fights you might need to git gud, noone with half a brain claims the deathripper is bad because it really sucks at killing stuff afterall.

>>49357711
Cygnar is a good example of Lights done right:
>Sentinel
Shield Guard and mows down infantry. Also not trivial to kill.
>Lancer
Arc Node and can remove enemy cortices with ease. Also not trivial to kill. If Thorn wasn't so stupidly good he might see play.
>Charger
Bang Bang
>Hunter
BANG
>Minuteman
Nice for throws which is something Cygnar is not usually proficient at. Also crazy mobile and can easily get to protected solos or casters. A bit too expensive for my taste and could really use Extended Control Range.
>Grenadier
Might actually be viable now if you're bringing Trenchers anyway. Have to test.

In short: All of them fulfill a certain support niche and can do a bit of work themselves. That's good Light design.

>>49357794
I agree that karax are the bee's knees. I'd still like to get some. I made super janky zaal 1 list with 40 karax in it. It was an answer to the early mk3 Sloan boogeyman with a shit load of doods to tie her up and make quality attacks to bring down the plethora of light jacks. I never want to own 40 karax, though.

Spam is great fun to try once, but I don't think the investment in time and money is worth it in the long term. Ref. Troll rage posters on official forums posting pictures of models in the garbage can post EE nerf, or my sad, sad collection of cataphracts

>>49357794
Skorne's caster lineup is pretty solid. They're not power casters by any means, but lets face it, they never have been. Makeda 1 looked pretty stupid until folks figured out a battlegroup of bugs works well against shooting and her feat works on beast packs.

Xerxis 1, Rasheth, Morghoul 1, Mordikaar, and Hexy 2 can be pretty savage in their matchup. Makeda 2 looks to me really interesting and Makeda 3 looks fully operational. I need to get some games with her.

The rest are pretty meh, I'd say that's the same number as most other factions. Cygnar and Circle are still kind of stuck riding the train of 1 or 2 highly effective casters, while the rest are at the kiddy table. At least that's the impression I get.

Khador fucking rules, though.

>>49357997
Problem is the casters are meh, the troops are meh, the beasts are meh and the solos are meh. All in all not a recipe for success.

>>49358397

I'm actually come around to the view that in this case, the problem REALLY IS everyone else.

Skorne actually is pretty good! But there isn't but a handful of things that it can do that aren't just run over by SOME asshole's skew (and there's a dozen officially sanctioned assholes to pick between, so there's always at least ONE) without him even noticing the bump, though.

Kill your darlings, PP. Kill your darlings.

>>49357457
Ret player here :

>Melee

Halbardier and Sentinels are the premier choice, plug and play with everyone.

Infiltrators are a steal for their price (without UA, stealth infantry with gang and 2 attack for 13 points ?) so you see them only on list where you need a cheap meat shield.

Ellowyr are niche, but with Elara they can be game changer.


>Shooty

Invictors, Strike Force and Stormfall really good.

Nyss Hunter and Riflemen you see them a bit less, but are great in their role.


Ret internal balance is really great with MKIII, a lot of option. The solo department is the only thing that you have piece over the top and shitty piece, but we can live with it.

>>49359343
>so you see them only on list where you need a cheap meat shield.

Erased a part where I told that they have problem with ARM so in current meta you see them only on list where you need a cheap meat shield..

>>49357753
>>49357822
Why DID they beat up the Gator Posse so badly?

Though I do love the idea of playing pactless it seems strange to slam the gators so badly, was it to ensure Slaughterhousers had a place in the post-pact world?

>>49359432
Probably because it meant every Hordes faction could use the same top tier unit.

>>49359432
They were pretty much best in slot for all of hordes barring specific builds, like eMorvhana and pXerxis' tier. Shoot, out of tier they were still great with pXerxis. 8 boxes, unyielding, and 2 pow 18 mat 7 attacks each, with built in pathfinder and threat extension vs living targets. They and croaks way outclassed their competition.

>>49357705
There are also much, much better things to spend those 22pts on.

>>49350624
So, Im thinking about picking up the Khador mk3 battlebox; Is it any good? What should I build onto it with?

>>49359343
>Ret internal balance is really great with MKIII, a lot of option
Well that's what I was saying.

>>49359663
What's their new statline?

(It's a shame they don't have some sort of in-faction bonus that makes them slightly better than their hired-out minion versions)

>>49359666

It is kind of interesting how a faction like skorne can look at their 11pt infantry selection and take it as a reprieve on the way to execution from PP's better angels, and Khador can take theirs as a conspiracy against the faction.

>>49359432
Because Skorne used to play them, and PP wants to phase Skorne out of the game by 2017.

>>49359749
Oh wow, lost one MAT, lost three wounds, gained tough, had Bloodthirst made into a prayer and had Dirge of Mists nerfed.

Jesus that hurts. I could see maybe the MAT loss or wound reduction on their own, but some of the rest seems excessive.

Damn, it seems Rabid's been totally removed in Mk3, that's a damn shame because it was pretty awesome.

Ah well, it's still a thing in the RPG which is nice.

>>49360026
It was a pretty clear "why would you ever not use this in combat" ability and that was bad. I'd like to see it reappear in a different way. Maybe like:

>Rabid: This model immediately frenzies. Rabid can be used once per game at any time during this models activation.

>>49360066
Some things being an auto-use don't seem too bad. I mean yes it's an outright buff but you still need to choose what other animi you can fit in.

And at least one of the replacement animi is similar to what you said Primal - Target Friendly Faction model gets a bonus to MAT and STR - and automatically frenzies next turn (even if you overwrite this with another animus).

>>49360121
Rabid is not an animus. There is also never a reason not to use it when you send in the Shredder. Or, was to be more accurate.

>>49360159
Dang I'm forgetful. Was it just automatic speed and an extra die (Or was it a free boost?) or did fury need to be generated?

When is the Man o War officer attachment coming out? Was meant to be some time this month, haven't even seen pictures yet..

>>49360204
+2 SPD and boosted attack/damage for 1 Fury.

>>49360214
21st

>>49359666
Honestly man, by the time I've built what I want with a Khador list I have something like 22 points left to play with anyway, especially with a generalist like sorscha 1.

I know, it must be hard to have what appears to be a bad unit lol.

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>>49355184
>A rework will balance Skorne

It's so adorable that people think this is going to happen. Skorne is going to stay the way it is with small errata changes here and there. A Skorne redesign is never going to happen

>>49360960
If enough gangers speak out, they will do it.

I wonder if there are any gangers here.

>>49360960
Allow me to rephrase: A rework WOULD fix Skorne.

>>49361018
>gangers
You mean Press Gangers? PP doesn't listen to us at all man. There's a huge thread in the PG boards right now on this topic and nothing will come of it.

If they do actually re-balance the faction I'll be shocked and amazed

>>49361209
>There's a huge thread in the PG boards

Link please. I feel like getting some more sodium in my diet.

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>>49360214
It's not that exciting.

>>49359808
Just because one faction has loads of shit doesn't mean they shouldn't fix other factions minor shit.

>>49361209
>You mean Press Gangers? PP doesn't listen to us at all man.

It's not really "PP" not listening to you, it's a few specific managers.

And it's not unusual what they are doing to the Press Gangers, they don't even listen to their own staff.

There's a real "stick your head in the ground and pretend things are going well" attitude with many of the PP managers.

Anyone that speaks out, doesn't stay with the company very long.

Add this file to the google drive already. For fucks sake who was i putting this out for you goddamned whiners?
WHERE IS THE TROLLBLOODS DECK? WHERE IS IT?
WELL HERE IT FUCKING IS NOW ADD IT TO OP.
http://www.4shared.com/office/ciko92Ebba/FREN-Trollbloods_Stat_Cards_v1.html

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>>49350624
What do I do?

>>49361408
Fuck you. Go suck a dick.

>>49361486
Id like to fuck you, but i wont suck a dick, also shitton your granpa's vagina and vomited into your mommy's mouth.
>>49361432
Accemble and paint them, maybe get Reeves and Sentry stone aswell as another Warpwolf kit.

>>49361224
You need to be a PG to access the board, but here you go
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?260881-Balance-errata

>>49361324
Yeah, I'm not expecting them to ever listen to us. They basically disregarded everything during the last SR beta and that is why we have stupid shit like Line Breaker

>>49361592
I think I'll paint them pastel colours with hearts on their asses.

>>49360960
Oh most def. Anyone thinking community bitching will resort in a faction rewrite is fooling themselves.

That being said, they're not completely broken or anything, they're just not very good right now.

>>49361604
>Yeah, I'm not expecting them to ever listen to us.

They don't listen to ANYONE, not even the members of their own staff.

That's why everything PP makes takes more time, materials and money than it should.

Matt has some great ideas for some really cool stuff, but every time he puts his ideas forward, a certain set of managers shoots him down and says it can't be done, take too long or cost too much so they end up not doing it.

Hell, the Cygnar and Khador Collossals models were sculpted back in 2005 (IIRC) and sat in a desk drawer for years because of the managers resistance to trying anything new.

Now, more and more manufacturing at PP is being outsourced to China.

>>49361890
Thank God we're not on the forums, or apologists would be tripping over themselves to challenge your mean-spirited bile.

>B-but they're a small company trying to make it against the megacorp competition of GW. Why don't you cut them some slack? :(

>>49361890
Are you an inside man, anon?

Are rhoven+co, the devout or the vigilant the better 9 point shield guard option for harbinger? I plan on taking a templar and a reckoner so I've already used up my jack points.

>Rhoven
2 martyrable shield guards
Rhoven spells

>devout
Spell protection
Defensive strike

>vigilant
movable cover instead of shield guard
throws?

And just for completeness
>vilmon
Cheaper
hits pretty hard

I wil say to be fair to them, that the issues of Skorne balance vs other factions are still a lot more minor than the kind of balance most wargames deal with.

Yea, there's issues, but outside of all the hyperbole, you can still take Skorne to local or even semi-big events and do pretty well with them.

Yea, they've got shit to fix, and yea, there has been some problems with the release, but it's still worth remembering that their balance is good.

>>49363423
They are played terribly. Thats no minor balance issue. Other factions can almost faceroll when you struggle to do shit playing Skorne.
I played as Synth against Skorne player with plain bigger and better experience. He lost terribly, when in MK2 he was doing pretty well even against Cryx or Legion.
The "problems with release" means untill armybook for Skorne is released the players of that faction will have funtime sucking balls all day long.
So its like "oh it shall be okay but for now spread your anus and enjoy the raping". And "for now" is for like 9 months or something.
If they would care much they would release the tier lists or stuff to let all factions have some options - and not in a way Trolls have with their Madrak2.

>>49363423
GW games != most wargames

>>49363243
If you're playing Harby in Mk3, the answer is probably "most or all of those things". She has to play further forward to be effective now, and the changes to focus hurt her ability to camp.

She is still a powerful scenario caster, but you need to pour some serious points into keeping her alive.

>>49363921
>GW games != most wargames
Not sure what's meant by this. GW is actually pretty middle-of-the-road in terms of the quality of the rules they put out, they're just a good touchstone because so many people are acquainted with their product.

There are a lot of companies putting a lot of rulesets out there right now, and not all of them are better than the average GW offering. The ones that tend to the rise to the top, like WMH, Malifaux or Guildball, of course ARE much better than most GW stuff - but that's why they got where they are.

And anyhow, GW's hardly "the crap games company" some make them out to be (which is not to endorse their business practices, of course). For every current 40K or AoS steaming pile, they've got an amazing Mordheim, War of the Ring, Space Hulk, etc that they've done. Hell, two of my all time favorite tabletop games - Warmaster and Epic - are both GW products.

>>49363927
You have to pay attention to your positioning now, instead of just shit on the other player's day, yes. I don't get the harbinger hate. You can still put her behind three jacks that can't be targeted by ranged attacks.

Her attrition mechanic is similar to Makeda 2s but hers looks a lot more effective. I think they valued it the same for the two of them as well. 24 battlegroup points?

In your local meta steamrollers, how important is caster killing? I played in a steamroller not too long ago, and did a great job assassinating my first 2 opponents, lost to my 3rd one. Placed almost dead last because I focused on killing people at the bottom of turn 2.

I always thought caster killing was one of the goals regardless of the scenario? Am I just completely wrong on this? I feel like one of the goals of the game was the caster kill, but if it can't be done you go for objectives.

>>49364033
Caster kills are sort of an all or nothing deal. If you win every game with it, that's first place. But if you don't, then the lost tie breaker stuff costs you a decent spot.

>>49364063

Yeah, I'm super cool with that. It's just it feels like I did really good with my assassination vectors, but some dude who didn't get a single caster kill all tourny won because he dominated an objective. Or in one case played a scrub and completely banked on points from the game

>>49361890
You do know that Matt is the true blight of the company right?

>>49363927
>most or all of those things
But then I have almost no points for my army :(
Maybe it would be cheaper just to have a full unit of vengers to screen harby?

>>49364402
>You do know that Matt is the true blight of the company right?

No the true blight are the upper managers that are woefully inadequate to bring PP further and make it grow.

No one outside of the "management inner circle" trusts them, at all.

PP could easily dominate the industry, not only with their own ideas but also the licensing some of the staff want to get hold of.

PP needs to wipe the slate clean with their management staff, especially downstairs in production.

>Skorne needs to have some uniqueness to how they play!
How about fuck off with this shit. I play them for the aesthetic largely. If you want to try something really out there and fitting with MUH HOKSUNE, give Skorne the ability to decimate.

>Deal 1 damage to target model that has not boxed an enemy model this game in a friendly faction unit. A model disabled by this damage cannot make a Tough roll. The unit gains +1SPD, +1STR, and +1MAT for one turn.

HOK

FUCKING

SUNE

>>49364524
And for even more fun:
>This attack is considered to have come from an enemy.
Suddenly everything is triggering like Tumblr when a shot nigger makes the news.

>>49364504
>PP could easily dominate the industry, not only with their own ideas but also the licensing some of the staff want to get hold of.

Oh, are they not still rolling in all that Voltron money?

>>49364524
Just go play Imperial Guard if you want Komissars so much

>>49364563
>Oh, are they not still rolling in all that Voltron money?

No, they aren't. Monpoc barely sells anymore. Their storage area is filled with pallets of that game, and others like Grind, covered in a nice layer of dust.

>>49365147
Yes, that's the joke. The idea that management is the only thing stopping them from "dominating the industry with their licensing ideas" and not the thing keeping them from paying more companies for the rights to shit that's going to collect dust in the warehouse for a decade.

PP Just threw Skorne a bone:

>After further analysis, along with a more detailed look at the stacking priority (which will be released later), we've reverted the previous ruling on Leadership [Titans] on the Bronzeback Titan. Serenity and Leadership [Titans] work very similarity. A non-Bronzeback Titan that is with the command range of multiple Bronzeback Titans can remove a point of fury when it ends its activation for every Bronzeback Titan's command range it is within. For example, a Titan Gladiator in the command range of three Bronzeback Titans would remove 3 fury points at the end of its activation. Leadership [Titans] functions similarly as Serenity.
>This does not change anything about Leadership [Exemplar Bastions] on the Exemplar Bastion Seneschal.

>>49353026
I mean cryx isnt bad per say, I find it wholy uninteresting.

The destruction of Lich2 and (lesser extent) denny2 is kind of horse shit considering most everyone else got to keep their S tier casters relativly unscathed or just got a new game breaking dude

>>49365453
Nice to know, in theory, but I'm not sure how often I'm going to want to bring more than one bronzeback. That's 4 more points over a gladiator, and I generally want those for our support costs, or adding some extra bodies.

>>49365967
To be honest, the fact that it doesn't affect other Bronzebacks is a shot against it. Generally you don't need more than one, and with char restrictions removed, and the buffs to the sentry/cannoneer I double we will much of multi bronzeback unless there is a tier that discounts them.

>>49365879
>per say
per se

>>49365879
Lets have some real talk.
Denny2's feat might be bad now, but her spell list is still top tier.

>>49365453

>which will be released later

This is honestly the shit I've been hating about PP lately.

Everything is always going to be fixed or adjusted some time in the far off future. They tell us we're missing pieces of the puzzle as far as their grand vision goes and yet hold everything off and don't even give us a choice.

>>49366311
iv got to ask, iv been out of the game fro a bit and have just recently gotten back to playing denny after a stretch of playing vennthrax. is denny2's feat really that bad I mean yeah in comparison to other s class casters it got stomped but by itself is it really a bad feat or is it worse because our shit gets shot off the board or something like that?

>>49366384
It requires a hit now. So it has minimal effect on high def infantry which would likely die after a single attack anyway.
It could have control applications, and it could also help you take out something like a warpwolf or stop enliven.

Its a pSevvy or Morshar level feat.

>>49365440

It's the managers that are responsible for things like that, they care more about their title and being able to go to conventions to make themselves into a "personality" in the industry rather than spending time doing their jobs.

They can just leave with their fabricated industry fame and find another job, they don't really give a shit about what happens to PP.

>>49366318
>>which will be released later
>This is honestly the shit I've been hating about PP lately.

"will be released later" is PP double-talk for "We haven't even started on that and don't plan to".

>>49365440
I heard that the reason that the monpoc stuff got the arc of the convent treatment was because there was a movie deal going on that's been development hell and they wanted to release them to coincide with said movie that was never released.

>>49364504
>PP could easily dominate the industry, not only with their own ideas but also the licensing some of the staff want to get hold of.

They are only really good at making Warmachine and Hordes, as far as I am concerned.

>what the fuck is Grind, again?
>High Command is a joke and stores are desperate to get it off their shelves to free up space for actual products
>Scrappers, Infernal Contraption, Heap, Bodgermania, and Zombies Keep Out keep pouring forth with no one to play them
>they made the new version of the RPG awkwardly try to share rules with the wargame, selling the wrong game to a different audience
>MonPoc was fun but was hurt by hairbrained sales tactics and staggering incompetence in regards to licensing
>Level7 is better left forgotten. Now they are trying to move into extremely mediocre fiction books?
>Undercity and the recent KS-backed RPG board game seem to just exist

They really ought to go all-in on WarmaHordes, crank production to keep interesting stuff coming without 2 year waits, and have people on call to iron out stupid rules interaction and imbalances.

They seem to too often get ideas for all these wild side projects that never really take off. If they were smart, they wouldn't try to snatch up all sorts of licensing for even more frivolous projects. Instead they should double down on their far-and-away most popular product, and really work to make sure that they don't lose ground from the competition.

>>49366686
>because there was a movie deal going on that's been development hell

They tried to garner interest in a movie deal, but Spielberg has a movie called Robopocalypse coming out.

Studios felt not only that the game and PP didn't have enough popularity/brand recognition to make a film, but also there are possible legal issues surrounding the similarity of the name to Spielberg's film, also that the studios wanted to focus on more lucrative IP like Godzilla and didn't want any competing films coming out.

They also likened it to something Uwe Boll would make.

In short, there isn't going to be a Monpoc film, at all. But few at PP know the full details and PP also told staff to never discuss it at all with anyone outside the company.

>>49366738

That's what I was trying to explain.

Many staff at PP have excellent ideas for games, miniatures, rules etc. Even changes to manufacturing that would help the company.

But the managers in charge are too interested in their own job security to make any changes that would drastically alter the structure of the company.

They have hit the limit of their skills and experience and need to step aside for more experienced people to take over in order for PP to realize it's full potential.

>>49366738
>they made the new version of the RPG awkwardly try to share rules with the wargame, selling the wrong game to a different audience

What pisses me off the most about this is that Iron Kingdoms is straight one of the best fantasy settings I've seen in a long ass time.

The old D&D RPG books are fucking amazing in terms of fluff, background, and just general setting. There's a shitload of incredibly good stuff in those books, and their RPG just doesn't really cover any of it.

So PP has ruled that multiple bronzebacks stack their leadership, so 2 will let your other titans drop 2 fury a turn

I don't even own multiple bronzebacks though, I don't think I'll be bringing any heavies beyond gladiator, cannoneer, tiberion, and aradus soldier regardless

>>49367023
>I don't even own multiple bronzebacks though,

You will; that's why they made the change, to get people to buy more of them.

>>49367038
Yeah no

I'm waiting to see the skorne theme books and if they aren't good by then I'm firesaling my skorne off and investing into my khador, menoth, and mercs.

>>49366889
They seem to treat the new RPG as though the wargamers are the target audience, what with the rules being a weird aping of the wargame's rules, mixed with some RPG elements to bridge the gaps. But I'd happily wager that wagamers are happy enough with the wargame, whereas people not into wargames but into RPGs are likely left scratching their heads at it.

As you also mentioned, they hardly cover any of the neat shit that the original Iron Kingdoms, Witchfire Trilogy, etc. covered. I suspect that this is to not have the RPG lore step on their feet of the wargame, where old info would either clash with existing/planned wargame stuff, or - if the RPG stuff is updated first - might give away plans for future Warmachine/Hordes expansions.

It comes across to me as being watered down to keep things contained within the boundaries of the wargame's story, rather than the original setting lore.

>>49367099
>they hardly cover any of the neat shit that the original Iron Kingdoms, Witchfire Trilogy, etc. covered.

Such as?

>>49367038
Will people though? What list would want double bronzebacks because of the fury management?

You only get good benefit if you spam titans and people would rather spam gladiators than bronzebacks. Also I'm pretty sure people would rather just take tiberion if they wanted a brutal beater rather than another bronzeback.

>>49367070
>>49367128

I'm just being cynical. I hate that model. So many gaps to fill. Not to mention the crappy resin castings mixed in with the metal parts.

>>49367170
Skorne assembly and the insistent push from PP to have models over hang more and more is what prevented me from picking Skorne.

>>49367128
>Will people though? What list would want double bronzebacks because of the fury management?
Not because of fury management - but because of price. Any theme list that drops the price of Titans is gonna have the potential to become a Chain Gang again.

>>49367277
I am not looking forward to theme lists at all unless they do some really weird janky ass shit.

>>49367230
You learn to deal with it after a while. The gaps are bullshit in terms of quality, but it did force me to learn how to use and sculpt greenstuff, and taught me the importance of pinning (pin the tusks so they can be removed when necessary.

>>49367277
But if titans get a blanket points reduction in such a theme list, I'd see people being more likely to take extra gladiators for attacks, sentries for armor, or even an extra cannoneer for another solid ranged threat. Bronzeback feels like a real "one and done" sort of beast.

>>49367293
While I can't say I wouldn't like to see some competitive, fluffy theme forces for Skorne, I really don't want the faction's broader viability in the game to depend on them. That feels completely ass backwards from a design standpoint.

>>49367118
The Menoth/Wurm divide is actually super interesting in it's nature, as is the conflict between Morrowan and Menites.

Actually, the IK gods in general are super interesting, and a lot of the fluff around them is really neat.

The political situation between the various countries was also really neat, and seemed far more thought out than most fantasy settings in terms of depth. The PoM and Cyngar situation was super interesting in it's base form, with a lot of really interesting situations arising from the maybe they will/maybe they won't tactic.

>>49367293
I kinda wish they hadn't obliterated themes the way they did. Naaresh had a wonderful tier and so did Morghoul2's second tier.

>>49367485
It's just a bandaid for Naaresh and Morghoul.

Nothing good's gonna come from these theme lists. I have no reason to trust PP with any playtesting when the core is so damn rotten.

The first theme list they released gives you 17 points of free solos.

Who the fuck knows what's going to happen.

Would you prefer Skorne theme lists to be based on the houses/castes? Sort of like how minions have blindwater or thornfall pacts they can build around now, but based around the great houses or castes of the Skorne, instead of the individual casters? Or would you prefer ones based on the casters?

>>49367657
The Skorne themes likely will be based around castes, ie.
>The Cataphract tier
>The Praetorian tier
>The Paingiver tier
And probably an Immortal tier. The Beast heavy will likely be rolled into Paingiver.

But what would be cool would be if they did stuff based on the Skorne Tors or subraces.

>>49367754
paingiver tier's probably the most interesting one since it will be the one with minion support and beasts.

>>49367170
A pain to build, but honestly one of my favorite looking models form PP.

>>49367657
Caster centric lists would be cool, but I honestly hate that you'd have to rely on a theme list just to have something playable.

>>49367420
All of that is still there in the setting and RPG books.

In fact, as far as the political thing goes, KNG is devoted primarily to that and the history of the nations.

>>49367636
Three years of playtesting, remember. They must have thought about all of this in advance.

:^)

>>49367778
>...since it will be the one with minion support...
Which won't mean shit unless they remember to remove the Friendly Faction restrictions on everything that isn't the taskmaster.

>>49367973
It's not like skorne has much in the way of meaningful buffs anyway

I guess we can cast blur on a unit of brigands or gators? The only things we have that's worth anything is d-ward on one caster and last stand on one caster.

>>49368062
I guess that begs the question of what exactly a paingiver theme list would do for us in the way of minion support. Or would PP just handwave it with Soles going
>well the Skorne don't care about their slaves as long as they fight for them, so they don't feel the need to buff them or give them much thought beyond simply sending them into battle :^)

>>49367936
>Three years of playtesting, remember. They must have thought about all of this in advance.

LOL. The only real playtesting that gets done anymore is when they can rope staff into playing games on their First Fridays event for staff.

Other than that, not a whole lot of playtesting gets done anymore.

"After further analysis, along with a more detailed look at the stacking priority (which will be released later), we've reverted the previous ruling on Leadership [Titans] on the Bronzeback Titan."

The fact that there was "further analysis" means they don't know how their own fucking rules work. Either it does or doesn't, there doesn't need to be any analyzing of it if they actually played this instead of vomiting rules onto a page.

>>49366738
I'm one of the few that likes Level Seven Omega Protocol.

I'm rather bummed it never took off...Invasion was alright but escape was lame.

Dunno, takes a lot of guts to do great things sometimes... it always hurts to see things fail though.

>>49365147
They still have pallets of DMZ starters in the Warhouse?

>>49364033
>Placed almost dead last
No, you must have placed at the bottom of the X-1 bracket, because you had dick fuck all for tiebreakers.

Tiebreakers are determined by Control Points, Strength of Schedule, and Army Points Destroyed in that order.

>>49357595
TF you talking about mate? All our lights are good.

>>49366311
I said lesser extent. Yes, her spell list is still very good. I would argue its a technical kit.
Her feat is just awful and makes me want to pull my hair out.

>>49364010
Out of sheer curiosity: If you consider GW rules average, what would you say is a genuinely bad ruleset? I have trouble imagining it.

>>49367636
I pray for that in cryx. Fucking free darragh wraith and 2 WWS in every list? Aka why this will not happen.

As for the RPG, I really wish they would have put out the cryx +others suppliment. The lich lords are like my favorite part of the setting. Idk I'm kind of sad that they are taking the story fluff out of the rule books

>>49365453
What? Where? And why does PP think this matters in the slightest? Nobody plays Bronzebacks, and sure as hell not multiple of them.

>>49370520
Rules forum

>>49366833
>the management needs to go
Yeah, but that will never ever happen.

>>49370520
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?253526-Bronzeback-Titan-Fury-Removal&p=3680399#post3680399

File: Privateer Press Infernals reviewing the game rules.jpg (44KB, 441x306px) Image search: [Google]

44KB, 441x306px

>>49370551
>it took guys working on the rules two months to realize that they didn't know how their own rule worked, and had to correct their initial correction

Really feeling good about the upcoming erratas, guys.

>>49370653
This errata will NOT be good. It's impossible.

At least 5 models per faction need to be examined on top of rule clarifications and I can't see PP making any of it work.

>>49370551
>>49370536
Thanks. Thought we had gotten a micro-errata and was slightly confused at that.

>>49367754
You forgot the Venators.

>>49367038
>You will; that's why they made the change, to get people to buy more of them
This is cynical to the point of stupid. The new leadership is arguably a buff. Sure your titans could automatically pass threshold before, but fury doesn't fall off when you pass threshold, and if a handler pulled it off, that's one less handlers to Enrage. With the new buff, the Bronzeback functions as a better Handler since it works for multiple titans without you needing to do anything. Also it means you can max out your titans but still transfer to them.

>>49366318
Don't worry friend, the Desert Hydra they revealed over a year ago that has an animus which does a lot to screw over gunlines will fix Skorne's problems in this meta!

>>49371659
With the old leadership you could easily have up to 4 fury flexibility. That was really important when you were running Molik for example.

>Mk2 Rasheth tier list was competitive because you could spam cheap titans
>Titans were made cheaper to the point of matching Rasheth's tier list
>People aren't spamming titans
Sorry but the DEF change wasn't THAT big, especially since you have the Agonizer now (the ARM skew is arguably worth the 7 points over the 2DEF) and can run your cheap titans with any warlock you want. Go run Makeda1 and Carnage + Shield Guard your way to victory, or do it with Naaresh because he has 32 beast points so can spam even harder, and he can play the flag hugging game really well with Cyclone. And titans with Naaresh's feat? Sign me the FUCK up nigguh.

>>49369239
Omega Protocol is probably the best Descent-style game out there right now. Level7 as a whole was an attempt at making a largely uninspired XCOM-style IP which was kicked off and ended with wholly unimpressive games, but Omega Protocol, which got sandwiched between these inferior products, is absolute fucking gold. People who don't like it are dumbs with bad opinions.

They should rebrand and reprint Omega Protocol as it's own standalone thing which it should've been all along, then put out some expansions for it. The thing is an absolute board game gem.

>>49371796
People ARE spamming titans though. What else would you play? Aradus Soldier is the only real alternative beast-wise and our troops are basically reduced to 2-4 options (depending on what you consider viable).

>>49367754
The Army of the Western reaches was mentioned in the lock and load video, I think. Wasn't that the cataphract one with attached venators?

Which is shit, so it fits the theme.

>>49372132
In mk2 it had Karax with attached reivers. They can't leave it like that obviously. Karax and Reivers are both actually decent now.

>>49372144
>RAT5
Yeah nah.

>>49371796
They got cheaper, but every part of the support structure around them got way fucking worse.

>>49372270
Long range and CRA fix RAT5. And with Rasheth or Hexy2 they are absolute gold.

>>49371796

>you have X now
>do Y now

Yeah.. that. Put your money and your time where your mouth is, anon, or concede that the mass of people that have and are now headed for the exits aren't just throwing a snit for your amusement.

>>49370480
>Out of sheer curiosity: If you consider GW rules average, what would you say is a genuinely bad ruleset? I have trouble imagining it.
Point wasn't that GW makes average rules consistently, but that their output is, on average, middle-of-the-pack. GW has released some genuinely bad rules (including some of their current flagship products), but they've also released some genuinely great ones.

What GW always have going for them is size. Lots of wargame rules get released with only the benefit of being designed and tested by 3-4 devs (or one dev and his friends/family), which leads to glaring oversights in writing / core mechanics / etc.

Look at something like the first ed of MYTH from a couple years ago (not a wargame, I know, but it's a handy example)... there were some good ideas there, but the devs made so many assumptions that deciphering the rulebook without help was an excercise in futility. And if you did actually get to play it, there were missing pieces of info and things that broke the game everywhere. They needed the "public beta" of the 1st ed to release an updated, playable product.

Even GW's worst output typically is at least internally consistent and comprehensible, because they have the benefit of lots of bodies to playtest things.

>>49371671
It does almost nothing to screw over gunlines. They haveto be further than what, 6 inches away from it to shoot?

>>49373531
The big deal is that it's based off the caster's CMD. All versions of Makeda and Xerxis have CMD10.

>>49372332
Long range for one turn.

>>49371796
Agonizer does exactly dick to counter gunlines. It's only an arm buff vs melee. This is the gunline edition and skorne has no anti-gunline tech except for makeda1 shield guards, and she's garbage other than that.

>>49373556
So you've got makeda or xerxis 10 inches away form their range 14 gunline? ok

>>49373581
Xerxis is like ARM18. Go ahead faggot, shoot. Next turn you don't have a mini feat so will never shoot him again.

>>49373530
>but they've also released some genuinely great ones.
Like for example? Not her to mock you, I'm just curious, though I fear I would disagree.

>>49373625
Are you fucking serious

Have you ever actually played xerxis? Dude's on a medium base and being shot off the table is one of the main concerns you have when playing him.

>>49373564
>Long range for one turn.
One turn of RNG16 (threat22) is enough. And RNG12 (threat18) isn't terrible either. You should really proxy them a few times before dismissing them. They've worked great for me.

>Agonizer does exactly dick to counter gunlines.
He lets the gunline player play 7 points up. Oh wait.

>>49373642
>being shot off the table is one of the main concerns you have when playing him.
Did you miss the part where you can't shoot?

>>49373625
>Xerxis is like ARM18. Go ahead faggot, shoot.
Ossyan, Sloan, Vlad and half a dozen I'm forgetting right now will gladly oblige.

>>49373675
All respectable guns are RNG 12-14. Some even go to 16.

>>49373675
Did you miss the part where they can back up outside of your range 10 because they're all at least range 12 and shit all over you?

What major shooting threat is actually limited by 10 inches? Unless xerxis is literally at the very front of your goddamn line he's not stopping anything, at best he's going to be 4 or 5 inches behind your front line unless you're wanting him to be fucking murdered by a jack or something. So I guess you're stopping those tharn with throwing spears?

>>49373698
So I'll throw the hydra at you then. If you don't kill it in one turn you've lost.

>>49373731
lol

>>49373731
>one turn
It's SPD5. Any respectable gunline will get at least 2 rounds of shooting before it arrives, more likely 3. And on't even think about healing it. That shit doesn't work. Have you played into gunlines before?

Unless you mean literally throwing the hyrda. I'd really like to see that.

The hydra's animus does exactly one thing: It stops assaults.

That's it. If someone really wants to shoot you they are going to shoot you until Skorne gets a cmd 12 caster.

>>49373776
Is this just a meme where you pretend guns are unbeatable in this game? And if someone on an internet forum can't come up with an answer you agree with as to how to beat them (see: fox and henhouse), then you win the argument.

>>49373843
How many games have you played vs gunlines in mk3? My meta is mostly cygnar and khador.

>>49373859
A couple. I tend to bring lots of titans that the gunlines can't get through fast enough and sit them on objectives. Local Ret players think Ozzy is overrated.

>>49373901
One of the guys here plays a Siege gunline list and that tears my Khador jacks apart regularly. I'd hate to see what it would do to titans.

>>49373939
I can threaten gunlines much easier than most factions with Nihilators. And heal my heavies back up much easier than most.

>>49354862
They don't really care if you're good at the game or not, you're part of the player base, you buy build paint and enjoy the models and the universe.
That in itself is more important than being some autistic cunt who wins tournaments by being a total dickwad.

>>49374114
>I can threaten gunlines much easier than most factions with Nihilators.
I see. So you play in a casual meta. Nothing wrong with that. Just don't expect that to work against experienced players.

>>49374161
Well local players have the disadvantage of having to play with terrain, so maybe that's why I do well against guns. You should try it.

>>49364402
Why is that?
I heard, and keep hearing that Ed can be a real ass. I've met him and he seems OK, so maybe he has bad days...like everyone else??

>>49365147
Monpoc barely sells?
Are you fucking serious? There's no support at all whatsoever for Monpoc, it isn't available to purchase in the first place.

Of course it doesn't sell.

Grind has a lot of potential, but yes it would require some investment to bring it back.

I could do it, PP just needs to hire me :^D

>>49374208
Are you suggesting that national and international tournaments are violating the basic terrain rules in the steamroller packet?

>>49374208
The best gunlines in the game can also ignore cover and concealment generally. The only terrain that works is LOS blocking with forests.

>>49374266
>Monpoc barely sells?
>Are you fucking serious? There's no support at all whatsoever for Monpoc, it isn't available to purchase in the first place.

That's called cause and effect.

>>49374403
Maybe they should have got rid of the stock before pulling the plug on Monpoc then...

One baffling thing is why does PP insist on making niche games that they drop when no one buys them??
I understand that a company has to diversify or die, but if you want diverse, you gotta support diverse.

>>49374299
Well, actually, to be blunt and tell you the truth, some of them are.

For a start nowhere in the rules does it allow 2D terrain, and as per the fucking rulebook terrain elements have VOLUME that means it's supposed to be 3D, so fucking yes.

Not only that but the SR document asks for between 6 and 8 terrain elements (I told will to push for 9, but hey)
Some tournaments don't have a minimum of 6 terrain elements.

Not only that, but because it isn't breaking any rules per se; tournaments are pushing terrain to the sides, leaving a great big empty space in the middle. They don't want to put terrain in zones because it imbalances the game for certain armies.

This is what really fucking pisses me off. Some of these tournament cunts seem to think they know more about games design than the fucking games designers themselves.

>>49374851
>Some tournaments don't have a minimum of 6 terrain elements.
The large ones do.

>For a start nowhere in the rules does it allow 2D terrain
100% irrelevant to gameplay. Only matters aestherically.

>>49374805
I think they were just gearing up to release new MonPoc stuff when their fuck up with movie rights licensing crashed and burned. I think I read that one of the results of that deal going under was that they couldn't sell any more MonPoc stuff without some sort of contract violation.

So it sits, dead, in some godforsaken corner of the warehouse.

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>>49374887
>100% irrelevant to gameplay. Only matters aestherically.

>>49375061
Yeah that rule has never been used by anyone ever, whether or not they use 3d terrain or use 2d terrain to represent 3d. Usually, if you find yourself using that rule, you have misread something.

>>49375119
>3D terrain doesn't affect the rules because we ignore the rules that 3D terrain affects

>>49370504
are they not doing the dwarf, elves and cryx book now?

>>49375199
Except you can just say before the game how high walls are. Or it can be written on the wall. Sure you can argue it doesn't look as good, but that was entirely that guy's point; aesthetics.

>>49374322
We always make sure there's a forest near the middle of the map. If you don't, the best gunline will end to win. That's why tournament results are skewed; people think zones should be empty.

>>49375199
Okay, let's put it this way. I've easily watched >100 recorded matches of WMH. WTC, larger tournaments or just simple battle reports. I've also played a larger number of games. In all of those this rule came up ONCE. The reason for that is simple. Obstructions are always handled as "higher than all models".

Regardless of that, obstructions being handled as immeasurably tall (as is the case EVERYWHERE) is actually WORSE for gunlines than this alternative.

>>49374887
Honestly the minimum should be 7 to 8 pieces. 6 isn't enough in this game and there should always be some kind of Los blocking terrain somewhere in the middle of the board.

You can make do with six but that's pretty shitty.

>>49375631
>Honestly the minimum should be 7 to 8 pieces.
Agreed. It makes the game more interesting.

>and there should always be some kind of Los blocking terrain somewhere in the middle of the board.
That just means that we have reached the same level of balance and gameplay depth as 40k.

>>49374227
PP is a vanity company. The man has no business sense. Did you know that PP was once commissioned to do a fallout game? Guess who rejected it to focus on their own IP rather than print money

>>49375667
>That just means that we have reached the same level of balance and gameplay depth as 40k.
I don't think that's true. I argue for some los blocking not necessarily for balance but to add some interesting game play to the table.

Fighting over an empty center is boring. Obstructions or forests or whatever in the middle is going to make you do something other than run straight at the other guy

>>49375775
desu they probably couldn't figure out how GURPS works

>>49369239
>They still have pallets of DMZ starters in the Warhouse?

There are 2 warehouses in the same business park. The main one is where the company is, the second one is for storage.

That's where their own staff stole a bunch of flat-screen TV's from what I was told.

So now very few people at PP have access to the storage warehouse.

>>49374266
>I could do it, PP just needs to hire me

And you wouldn't make a damn difference since you wouldn't be allowed anywhere near anything that would make the existing management "look bad".

Odds are you'd get frustrated and quit, or they'd call you too difficult to work with and fire you.

>>49374227
>I heard, and keep hearing that Ed can be a real ass. I've met him and he seems OK

Ed is a backstabbing asshole. How he acts really depends on where and when you met him,

If it was at an event where he was a representative of the company, then he would be on his best behavior.

If you ever had to work with him for nay length of time, your perception of him would be very different.

>>49375775
>Did you know that PP was once commissioned to do a fallout game? Guess who rejected it to focus on their own IP rather than print money

The main cause of them rejecting it was because they can't get their manufacturing organized and streamlined so it's more efficient.

They, mistakenly, thought they couldn't handle the workload.

That's what happens when you keep people in charge who have hit the limit of their abilities, they start to build walls around their department and go into defense mode in order to protect themselves.

I should add that one major reason I left PP, other than finding a job at almost twice the pay, is the immaturity and lack of professionals, displayed by many of the managers and staff.

There were so many petty vendettas between them simply because they didn't like each other. It was like working with a pack of 5th graders.

They just don't act like mature professionals; well many of them. There are several really good people that were there, they just have no real say in how things are operated.

I just got tired of the bullshit.

>>49376069
>>49376146
You the anon that worked in the warehouses, and whose NDA recently expired?

>>49376213
>and whose NDA recently expired?

Screw PP and their NDA. My NDA expired the second I walked out that door. Besides, nothing I've said here hasn't been said elsewhere.

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I just want you enjoy miniature games again his. Why does everything have to be terrible and shitty?

>>49375826
>not necessarily for balance but to add some interesting game play to the table
Oh. Yes I agree with that. Certainly.

I've been looking at Cryx lists and noticed that barely any of them have Inflictor, why's that?

>>49378378
It must came out and wasn't legal for play

>>49378469
Did it come out after WTC?

>>49361604

What's it say in the thread anon?

>>49378784
A couple Skorne players crying about Skorne and other people trying to figure out what should it should not be balanced.

Lots of Skorne salt but nothing unusual. If you want to read ~11 pages of bitterness and bitching check out the 'Give a player a gun line' thread on the main board. That one is pretty sad

Make Skorne great again.

>>49379179

Skorne was never great.

>>49379488
It was in mk1

>>49378868
>Lots of Skorne salt but nothing unusual. If you want to read ~11 pages of bitterness and bitching check out the 'Give a player a gun line' thread on the main board. That one is pretty sad

It's about convinced me the ranged game is in for a imminent nerf. I recognize this- some players blithely assuring the mob that their broken shit isn't broken; words change but the song's the same.

>>49379179

I tell you the problem isn't so much skorne (well, it's kind of skorne) as everyone else.

Being uniquely vulnerable to feeling the effects of misdesign in OTHER factions is something to get hopping mad about, maybe, though.

Here's the problem

Hordes is fairly well balanced against each other. Skorne can be fairly competitive against the others. It's still the weakest but it can compete, other hordes factions don't tend to have the brutal ranged games that warmachine factions live on.

And warmachine is very well balanced against each other, even cryx. Other warmachine factions have their own anti-gunline tech to deal with warmachine gunlines. Cryx definitely has troubles but not insurmountable ones.

But the warmachine vs hordes balance is real bad. Circle is able to manage just fine, but skorne is the weakest of the hordes ones. And even though it can match fine with other hordes it gets utterly shitstomped by any warmachine faction. They did 0 warmachine v hordes testing, but the two systems are internally balanced.

>>49379610
>even cryx
Cryx can deal with maybe half of the top-notch gunlines at any one time within a list pair. If they run into the other half their only option is to present their ass and grit their teeth.

Their entire plan is just to throw Witch Coven at the problem and hope the feat wins them the game.

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>>49354580
If they are reading... Ummm.... I want a Merfolk/Deep Sea faction for hordes.

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>>49379524

Maybe at like the tail end of Mk.I, right before Mk.II rolled out. But for the most part Hordes factions were behind the bend due to fewer releases, and Skorne especially sucked because they were a slow as balls melee army. Getting Rush on Titans in Mk.II was a godsend.

>>49379781

>hungerford-sempai can see me shit-post
>...
>...oooogh....

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>>49379781

The contract is sealed.

>>49350624
Are Manhunters any good in mk3? I see that they're one of the few Solos woth free rules in the war-room. I'll be adding it on to the Starting box, along with the new Khador Battlebox and a unit of Man-O-War shock troopers for a basic 25 point army, as a way to better feel the faction out before going in any deeper. What do yall think?

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I don't care what they do with the theme forces,the command book cover art is fucking boss
On a related note,has anyone uploaded the full prime primal?
Also
>>49379885
from where is this pic?

>>49380272
I liked the pic with Haley better, this gives me a Bohemian Rhapsody feel especially Seige. Not thats bad, but i get the song stuck in my head.

>>49380272
That Jack beside Ol' Rowdy is actually a new char jack - a Char Centurion.

>>49379781
>If they are reading... Ummm.... I want a Merfolk/Deep Sea faction for hordes.

Good luck. It's been presented as an idea before. The most we got was the Bog Trogs.

>>49379874
There was that time when eMorg and Karn existed together that was absolute bullshit for anyone who had to fight it.

Can Agathea use Vanish after charging a model but before the charge attack? Namely, can she be placed behind the model for backstrike bonus without failing the charge?

>>49381696
Yes.

>>49381741
Cool ty

>>49374887
WMH is the only game that I prefer 2d terrain. Fuck 3d hills and their ability to chip my paint jobs.

>>49375219
who knows? I havent seen anything about it in 2 years

>>49378504
It came out like 2 weeks ago

>>49381651
Kinda like how its been for anyone facing Haley2 and the Stormwall?

Haven't played Warmachine in like 4 years, and I don't have much. However, there is a tiny possibility I'll have a chance with this new shop. With 3rd here, I figure I could at least try.

Mostly have what was a pAbby theme list and the old Legion starter box, all of it metal. I think it's pAbby, pLilith, Scythean, Typhon, Angelous, Carni, 6 Shredders, 2 stingers, a Shepherd and a Forsaken.

Is any combination of that still playable? What would be good to potentially purchase in the future?

Anyone have an archive of the Focus and Fury Episode where they got PP Staffers on and they got their shit absolutely wrecked by questions?

After finishing our journeyman league we're finally doing the full steam tournament. I'm taking harkevich. Battlegroup only for the Blood and Steel achievement. I've narrowed my list down to four choices, which do you think? I've played the first one and it worked great.


Khador Army - 74 / 75 points

(Harkevich 1) Kommander Harkevich, The Iron Wolf [+28]
- Ruin [17]
- Destroyer [16]
- Decimator [16]
- Black Ivan [19]
- Behemoth [24]
- Marauder [10]


Khador Army - 75 / 75 points

(Harkevich 1) Kommander Harkevich, The Iron Wolf [+28]
- Ruin [17]
- Destroyer [16]
- Decimator [16]
- Black Ivan [19]
- Behemoth [24]
- Rager [11]


Khador Army - 75 / 75 points

(Harkevich 1) Kommander Harkevich, The Iron Wolf [+28]
- Destroyer [16]
- Decimator [16]
- Black Ivan [19]
- Behemoth [24]
- Demolisher [16]
- Juggernaut [12]


Khador Army - 75 / 75 points

(Harkevich 1) Kommander Harkevich, The Iron Wolf [+28]
- Decimator [16]
- Behemoth [24]
- Destroyer [16]
- Juggernaut [12]
- Grolar [18]
- Ruin [17]

anybody have the old leaked decks? particularly trolls. Don't feel like buying it on war room.

>>49378868

At this point the only people that make a point NOT to cry about Skorne are the ones trying to stand out for some reason internal to themselves. It's worked out that Skorne got dumped on. Mostly now it's just useful as a case-study for how the continuous errata cycle works in operation and people are looking on in interest for the process to kick in.

>>49383995
Hey, a Khandor player! I'm this guy:
>>49380195
Would that be a workable list? Or are Man-O-Wars and Manhunters still terrible?

>>49384551
Shock troopers are one of the best units in khador, especially with kozlov because of tactical supremacy.

Manhunters are still pretty bland, I don't think I'd take a melee solo over a sniper solo in most cases. It just charges one thing, maybe kills it, then dies in retaliation. A marksman can keep on shooting.

>>49384477

Kick in how? PP write a stern letter to each and every person who bought non-Skorne models to stop abusing their selection choices and construct and play the sensible list designs that they balanced their counter-punch faction against?

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>>49384673
If by "letter" you mean an errata where they break out the #designspace bat again and give everyone else a taste, sure.

I give it a 50/50 chance of actually happening. They'll surely re-fuck everything with some retarded theme force, but it'll be comfy in the meantime.

Literally just give Skorne heavies more boxes. Put a gladiator up to like 36 and the bronzeback up to 40. Make us the meatshield faction.

>>49385194
I'd just be happy with our beasts getting their defense, armor, and fury back to mk2 levels, and make krea either regain old animus, or expand its aura to agonizer range.

>>49385289
Yeah the titan nerfs were completely unnecessary. When everyone else's ARM+DEF comes to 30, they nerf the worst faction's to come to 29. Then nerf our best armour cracker. And best assassin. And our mid tier warlocks. And our heavy infantry. Then they forget that Incindiarii are only playable against infantry blobs which no longer exist and make no changes to them. Then they let the willbreaker grant tough when our best infantry already has it.

>>49385345
Going through the "core" beasts, available for free in War Room, only the cannoneer and sentry lost fury compared to all other "core" beasts in the transition. Trolls all have 4 (and a 5 on mauler), Circle all have 4, and Legion all have 4 (neraph has 3, but I don't remember what it had in mk2, and it was added as "core" in the mk3 battlebox).

Why did our staples only get the fury hit? On top of defense and armor nerfs? And loss of free charges. Other armies have all sorts of shit that empowers them, and our support takes a hit to go with our stats.

I'm just left scratching my head at it all. Especially when people say Skorne is fine, so don't complain about it.

>>49385438
The Sentry and Cannoneer both went down a fury, but so did the Bronzeback, Archidon, and Rhinodon, and Molik Karn lost his bonus Fury with Makeda in exchange for Side Step as a bond. I never field him any more, basically every rule that made him cool has been nerfed or removed (And rules that used to synergize with him have been nerfed to no longer do so, or outright removed).

The Fury on the Agonizer also sort of went down, as I can't get him up to a 9" bubble anymore. I understand that's not exactly how it worked, but it's a smaller area.

Beyond that, we no longer have free charges, so ALL of our beasts have sort of taken a fury hit.

>>49385474
Oh, I know all about the faction's changes. It's just that I'm still trying to understand how on Earth PP arrived at this point AND managed to okay it.

Even with the promise of erratas (when they've shown in rulings that they don't even understand the existing rules), how can they be okay with it?

>>49385557
Everything's ok when you are completely clueless.

So i can get my dirty hands on these:
Nyss Strider Rangers, 2xShepherd, Sorceress and Helion, Striders Officer and Musician and Striders themselves.
Should i pick em up? Cant really see much use of rangers and 2 Shepherds since i have 1 already and they are not so good in fury management as before.

>>49385474
The Sentry and Cannoneer may have gone down a fury, but there worth taking now. Whereas mentioning them in Mk.II brought on boughts of laughter. Sentries now have shield guard and can actually hit something in melee,. The cannoner has fucking snipe, with a bigger aoe. The Bronzeback was arguably overkill with fury 5, it sucks going down to 4, but it can still table just about anything in one turn. So I don't see much reason to complain about the titan changes.

The agonizer is a completely different animal, why compare the range of things that did completely different things. It even comes with a useful animus now.

A lot of the other stuff got shat on for sure. I don't think anything in the Skorne stable got a boost besides those 2 titans and the razor wurm with long-leash.

>>49381651
Yea, eMorg was much loved when released at the end of the MK.I cycle. That probably lasted like half year then Mk.II was rolled out, and the golden age of Skorne died.

>>49386399
>Sentry and Cannoneer
After thoroughly testing the Sentry I am a bit disappointed by it. Most games he just does nothing except for running until the enemy decides it's his time to die. I'd rather spend 1 more point and get another Cannoneer. They can reach out 22" with Rush and there have been 0 games where they failed to accomplish anything. If the enemy wants them dead, he will be able to do that easily, but at least the Cannoneer pressures the opponent to deal with him.

>>49386647
I've had a few failed games with the cannoneer that would have been greatly improved by ARTILLERIST.

HINT.

By the by, since people were discussing terrain and how it should become more prevalent, this is the sort of table to avoid setting up.

Not to pick on Chain Attack, but guys, that's a lot of empty space.

http://www.chain-attack.com/forums/topic/s2-ep4-helynna-vs-lylyth2/

>>49387116
>B-B-BUT THERE'S A WALL NEAR THE M-M-MIDDLE

>>49387145
I'm glad you feel as I do.

>>49386399
It used to be able to table anything in one turn and still take transfers. Because it used to be leaving it with 1 fury up meant you got 4 buys, now it means you get 2 buys. That might not be enough to kill something with arm buffs. Not really good for an 18 point beast without reach whose only job is to fuck things up in melee.

The thing with terrain is PP specifically wanted to make terrain a bigger deal in Mk3 but most people, including major TOs still treat setting up terrain just like they did in Mk2. It's not 6-8 pieces on the table, it's 6-8 pieces that have an impact on the game. If the only piece of terrain that impacts the game in any way is a piece of wall, you don't have 6-8 pieces of terrain, you have ONE. Major TOs not having adjusted to the change yet doesn't mean you should emulate them.

I don't like "use more terrain" as a balancing factor unless you're required to use a specific regulation layout every game, but this is the way PP wanted to go with Mk3. I assume they're going to back off with it eventually as it's such a vaguely defined part of an otherwise tight-writ ruleset.

Yeah hopefully SR2017 will have more defined terrain rules if the game survives that long.

More terrain will help Skorne out since we have such easy access to Rush. It'd be a huge buff to the currently low tier Mordikaar too as he can give his battlegroup ghostly.

>>49387116
That's a fucking joke. Not only are they using the minimum number of terrain pieces allowed, they are also tiny and in the corners.

>>49350950
>>Fury Management
>Condition on beasthandlers got nerfed so there is less fury management
>Enrage no longer gives free charges and Skorne now has no access to free charges
>Titans had their fury reduced

Oh fucking boohoo you cry babies !! You mean that you have to actually work to get something out of your beasts? Missing Mk2 easy mode are you? oh diddums.

>>Defensive stats
>Titans had their def reduced by 2
>Cataphracts lost 3 boxes

even more crying and tantrums.
You're surprised that big fucking elephants have low def?
Actually I could sorta agree that if big ass elephants are def11, there is no way cygnar heavies should be def 12 and cryx heavies def 13.

No but seriously, several factions got screwed in the ass.
Trolls are crying over animus self too, but the thing is, that's just a case of getting over it, and getting to play with your new toys.
I heard the agoniser is better than before ?!
I bet there are plenty of things which are better, you're just forgetting those?

>>49370451
You have hair ?! OP plz nerf

>>49370551
infernals are just regular neckbeards like tg.
>just as prone to autism !!!!!!!!!1!eleven

>>49374887
suck my dick nigger.
How about you fucking prove that "big" tournaments have a minimum of 6 terrain pieces that aren't pushed to the side to be irrelevant?
You fucking prickstick.
I've seen tournaments that simply don't have enough terrain.
You know why? because they're all pushing for the biggest tournament evar !!
Fucking quantity over quality.

>>49375119
love dat circular logic faggot

>>49376001
goddammit hungerford that sounds way too plausible.

Is Ed really that "difficult" to work with??

>>49381017
>Bohemian Rhapsody
Dammit !! I can't not-hear it now !!

>>49389556
>Mk2 easy mode
You're a fucking moron.

It does actually look like Mk3 "works" kinda like mk1 worked, as long as you don't try to push it too hard.
I must say i was surprised with the whole can't charge knocked down stuff
and some things still baffle me
like why you can attack your own models but not charge them.

and spell slave which became more complex to work out what can actually be cast

and power attacks! omfg. they need simplifying. But removing 2 of them while leaving the same clusterfuck rules ISN'T simplifying.

>>49389556
>Actually I could sorta agree that if big ass elephants are def11, there is no way cygnar heavies should be def 12 and cryx heavies def 13.

To be fair the def 13 cryx heavies are on the slayer chassis, which durability-wise are basically glorified lights

>>49389692
no u

>>49389556
>I heard the agoniser is better than before ?!

You heard hype. In practice, it's a rube-goldberg faction balance mechanism that could have been simplified/streamlined by eliminating it entirely and adjusting stats and point costs directly. That would be more robust too, which has turned out to be a Skorne bugbear; it was always the faction of "you don't get to start playing the game before the other guy has had his shot at turning your list into a bleeding wad of chewed meat", but the implications seem to have been allowed to lapse. (That's also a reason that a number of them care so much that the performance on their beasts has been capped lower- the Skorne beast that actually manages to be there has to do the job of all the skorne beasts that the player paid for).


We're at the point in the assessment of Skorne in mk3 by the community at large where either there really is a BIG problem, or it's an incredibly coordinated, incredibly large performance theatre by warmachine/hordes players worldwide.

>>49389807
You can't charge your own models because people were using it in Mk2 to extend their own threat ranges for assassinations or feats, and there wasn't shit you could do to stop them.

Getting murdered by B3 or feated on by Krueger2 in the perfect spot even though you did what you should to stop them was never very interesting.

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http://conflictchamber.com/#b41bf_3a191v1v1v0t1z2C2E2B2B

Cryx Army - 74 / 75 points

(Agathia 1) Bane Witch Agathia [+29]
- Erebus [16]
- Deathripper [6]
- Slayer [10]
- Slayer [10]
- Slayer [10]
- The Withershadow Combine [9]
Bane Warriors (max) [17]
Bane Lord Tartarus [8]
Darragh Wrathe [9]
Warwitch Siren [4]
Warwitch Siren [4]

What kind of Agathia lists do you run?

>>49389807
>t does actually look like Mk3 "works" kinda like mk1 worked, as long as you don't try to push it too hard.
>I must say i was surprised with the whole can't charge knocked down stuff
Yeah I wonder if that's the last major oversight we'll notice in Mk3. Mk2 had this whole incorporeal mess that wasn't noticed for years.
>and some things still baffle me
>like why you can attack your own models but not charge them.
It's pretty clear why that is the case. It's so you can't use your own models as threat range extension. I just think it's pretty bad from a game perspective. It takes away some counterplay to stuff like Polarity Shield.
>and spell slave which became more complex to work out what can actually be cast
Yeah fuck that.
>and power attacks! omfg. they need simplifying. But removing 2 of them while leaving the same clusterfuck rules ISN'T simplifying.
They are a bit simpler and I think much better laid out in the rules. They are however not nearly as simple as they could be.

>>49389818
Yeah, won't you look at all the players who jumped onto the Skorne bandwagon because it was so OP in Mk2.

>>49390344
>Mk2 had this whole incorporeal mess that wasn't noticed for years

What was that?

>>49390388
I'm not sure I remember the exact wording but I'll try. Incorporeal models could only suffer damage and effects from spells, magical attacks and feats. But how do you define "suffer an effect"?

>>49387116
Erm i didnt even get, who won that?

>>49389648
>Is Ed really that "difficult" to work with??

Yes. Ed is like a spoiled child, if you disagree with him, no matter how wrong he knows he is, he throws a profanity-filled tantrum.

Anyone that's been in any meetings with him knows this.

>>49390242
>You heard hype. In practice, it's a rube-goldberg faction balance mechanism that could have been simplified/streamlined by eliminating it entirely and adjusting stats and point costs directly. That would be more robust too, which has turned out to be a Skorne bugbear; it was always the faction of "you don't get to start playing the game before the other guy has had his shot at turning your list into a bleeding wad of chewed meat", but the implications seem to have been allowed to lapse. (That's also a reason that a number of them care so much that the performance on their beasts has been capped lower- the Skorne beast that actually manages to be there has to do the job of all the skorne beasts that the player paid for).

In that sense the Agonizer is actually quite cunning- Skorne loses beasts in smaller points packets while still having good beast performance. If you like to play this game by going around in tiny formations of multiple titan warbeasts, at any rate.

Only... killing the Agonizer is a short-cut that searching for a way to achieve was incentivized and turns out to have been facilitated by general changes.

>>49390420
yep, and damn it was shitty.
The avatar of menoth couldn't use gaze on incorporeal models RAW, because gaze isn't damage nor an effect...