Its all Cygnar now, abandon all hope, tier lists wont fix an

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OP have fucked up with the thread name but who cares lol.

Reminder that Skorne is fun. FUN.

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>FUN

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>>49272702
Quiet you son of a bitch, they're going to nerf Cygnar, Joe, the Hellmouth, and Sentry Stones. Then they'll give Skorne a spicy new meme caster and everything will be fine.

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>>49273027
Yeah and buff all the weak units aswell.
This is me in pirate outfit. Look at my smile. LOOK AT IT!

>>49273027
Skorne doesn't need new casters, it needs infantry support. There are so few defensivw buffs for infantry in Skorne you wouldn't believe it. Xerxis has defender's ward, Zaal has some shit, but that's it. There's some shit to increase defence against shooting and magic, but seriously that stuff is useless as fuck. There's also no UAs worth caring about except maybe Vorkesh, which forces you into using Xerxis because Cetrati need to be a brick these days.

What I'd give for a Nihilator UA.

JUSTICE FOR CRYX

>>49273912
But Cryx is still good. Sorry you can't spam Meme Thralls anymore or camp 20 focus on Terminus and derp your way to victory.

>>49273923
Cryx is dogshit, unplayable trash tier.

The only consolation is in a Cryx vs Skorne tournament Cryx still wins, so if punching cripples is your thing the faction is still fine I guess.

>>49273027
Joe won't get nerfed as he's the only reason the WGRC and rockets are worth taking and Legion now seems designed around the Hellmouth.

>>49274316
Skorne is good, you just have to ignore that the faction has infantry then spam heavies and solos.

(Morghoul 1) Master Tormentor Morghoul [+30]
- Bronzeback Titan [18]
- Titan Cannoneer [17]
- Titan Gladiator [14]
- Titan Gladiator [14]
- Agonizer [7]
Tyrant Zaadesh [4]
- Titan Gladiator [14]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (max) [7]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]
Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2]

Like nigger tell me what you're going to do against that TELL ME. Zaadesh's Gladiator can go up to P+S22 at MAT8. Go ahead, shoot a Gladiator off the table. There's more where that came from.

>>49275766
>designed around the Hellmouth

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>>49275766
>They won't cripple a unit that everyone in faction already bought and make them pay for new stuff
>They won't mess with a mechanic that the whole faction is designed around
>MK 3 won't be a bi-annual cycle of nerfing linchpins and buffing shelfwarmers

>>49276665

Hungerford was possessed by satan so gradually I never even noticed

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>>49273912
>Cryx will get buffed in the erratas
>The erratas will not be released until everyone has gone out and bought extra Satyxis and Mercenaries

>>49276154

No wonder you guys couldn't stay in Ios...

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>>49276738
Yeah, it's hard to tell he's the devil now.

>>49276154
You have no Shield Guards for Morg. He's just going to get shot/spelled to death the turn after the Gobbers die.

>>49273870

Skorne doesn't even need new models. Put the "Stir the Blood" +2 damage to first melee attack on the TyComm Battle Plans...

>well, he'd still cost 6 points

>>49273870
You'll never get those buffs man.

Skorne infantry is meant to die man, that's the faction's central tactic.

What you might see is getting actual value out of their deaths.

>>49273027

...I don't really want new skorne models. I want the models that already exist to be better.

>>49278371
So resin confirmed then?

>>49278588
Might be resin + metal mix.

Still, it's a great looking models. Almost all their Gargs are. Such a shame they can't write rules for them for shit.

>>49278627

If it looks good, the rules don't NEED to be good. You'll buy it anyway. Only when the sculpt is shite does to model need to be OP.

>>49278657

Ah, Madrak2. The doughiest of the dough-faces.

>>49278657
I guess they don't need to be good, but given how Warmachine is a competitive focused game, it will do a lot to actually see it on the table.

There's no reason it's rules should be as bad as it is.

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Soooo... Madrak3 is already confirmed to be unplayable trash. That's nice

>The iconic Trollblood chieftain Madrak Ironhide returns. Having finally freed himself of the cursed axe Rathrok, the latest version of Madrak trades in brute aggression for stalwart defense. Nowhere is this more apparent than in his feat Rallying Cry that boosts the Trollbloods' already legendary toughness, preventing friendly Faction models from becoming knocked down; causing Tough rolls to pass on a 4, 5, or 6; and allowing models who successfully pass a Tough roll to advance 3". In addition, Madrak has the Protective Aura ability, allowing him to grant the same protection to his army as a Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribe unit!

>Super Tough and Reposition as a feat
>In a game full of infantry and tough hate
>Needs to camp all his fury for an aura
>This is fine

>>49278627
>>49278588
Resin with some pewter parts

>>49278956

Well, they upped his Fury stat at least, one would hope.

Otherwise: as soon as they nerf Madrak2 into an unmarked grave, I'd like to be the first to officially welcome trolls to the Skorne-tier of factions.

>>49278956
Well, we don't know any of his other abilities/spells so its too early to say he's "trash."

But, Trollbloods being the way we are, I'm not hopeful for anything great or interesting. Protective Aura will do what it pretty much always does: protect himself and his battlegroup. You don't need to have a lot of fury on Madrak-3 to make use of PA.

His feat sounds... okay. It wants him to run infantry, but Troll infantry is pretty garbage across the board, so I don't feel to excited right now for him.

So muh Cygnarans are OP now, or what?
How are my terrorist elves?

>>49279089
>How are my terrorist elves?

Cryx.

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>>49279089
Top Tier
Cygnar, Khador, Retribution

Mid Tier
Everyone Else

Low Tier
Skorne, Cryx

More or less how things are at the moment.

>>49278956
would go great with Trolls' deadly light beasts and ranged infantry :^)

>>49279115

>Low Tier
>Cryx

>Skorne Tier
>Skorne

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>>49279115
>Low tier
>Cryx

Man, this sucks. In a vacuum Cryx is totally fine. They're fair and they play really well, but the current meta is so shooting heavy they just don't stand a chance against the larger scene.

Kinda sad

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>>49279143
It's funny because it's true.

>>49279161

Cryx was nerfed into the ground, or at least into sanity- which doesn't exactly confer any competitive advantages.

Skorne was never fully compiled. Simply being *bad* would be an improvement.

>>49279115
Convergence belongs in the top tier.

Just not enough people play them for people to notice.

>>49278956
The best part will be if he doesn't have the extra abilities of the Krielstone UA, so people will be taking it with him anyways.

>>49278588
It's hard plastic. BoLS posted a picture of the sprue.

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>>49280314
Here it is.

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>>49280334
>>49280314

>>49280374
The Convergence dual kit has been great, as well as their TEP, so the bird will likely be very nice as well.

Now if they'd only stop releasing absolute trashed lightning themed huge base models, we'd be living the dream.

I want to play Bart Double Galleon. Will this still work?

>>49280631
It seems like all the new colossals are going to be hard plastic duel kits aswell

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Let's get this thread going again with a wonderful, perfectly objective and positive listing of everything we don't like about our main faction.

> Chronicler got 1" reach, but Skinner didn't.
> Madrak-1 and Jarl got worse.
> Scouts still do nothing and die to a stiff breeze.
> Sluggers still do nothing and die to a soft breeze.
> Sons of Bragg got worse so that Champions would look better. Neither unit is worth anything much.
> Slag Troll hasn't got an animus.
> Night Troll may as well not exist.

>Tartarus is supposed to have the combined abilities of Bane Knights and Thralls
>still has Stealth

Just remove Stealth from him PP.

>>49283011
No. It already takes 2 everests of skill to play him and the rest of cryx

>>49283056
Cryx has been demoted to fluff army status, they might as well follow fluff all the way.

>>49282975
>deliverers got nerfed. You know, the guys you never saw at all.
>Avatar can be disrupted
>no more def 18 daughters
>still no native pathfinder jack

>>49282975
>Destroyer still isn't very good compared to other options
>Spriggan costs too much
>Winter guard infantry are kinda pointless
>Manhunters are still kinda boring
>Old Witch and Harkevich kinda lackluster
>Manowar units outside of shock troopers are still bad
>Kossites still bad
>Our cavalry is awesome but costs too many dollars

That's all I got

>>49284158
Oh, and what the fuck did they do to my drago

IMC is down to Ragnor and Kaya2.

My completely baseless, no-further-information-at-all guess is that they locked themselves out of Madrak2 and Wurmwood getting there.

>>49284173
God, Drago sucks now. I love his model and fluff, but he's really pointless now, even with Vlad.

>>49284342
IMC?

>>49284699

Intermountain Cup

>>49282975
>> Chronicler got 1" reach, but Skinner didn't.

It's okay, Skinners got Weapon Master to compensate, remember? :^)

>>49284342

Well, it is true of Jay Larsen's trolls at least, but that part of it is a sucker's bet.

>>49285513

And he's won the IMC.

I love Larsen that way; he is a complete, total, unabashed douche. If it is OP, he will find it, play it, and say as much about it as the wall of sound from other players of the same jank saying it's balanced drowns out his words.

>>49285507
AND ALL DIRE TROLLS GOT EXTRA HEALTH

EXCEPT THE EARTHBORN, HE DIDN'T BUT HAHAHAHAHA HE DOESN'T REALLY COUNT AS A DIRE TROLL DOES HE?

NO OF COURSE NOT! HAHAHAHAH

>>49285661
>If it is OP, he will find it, play it
Well, sure. It's a tournament. Play to win.

>>49278956
Except the average army doesn't have much that can avoid tough. It exists, but that doesn't mean it's common.

>>49273870
>, it needs infantry support
Like that guy who gives all your troops tough?
Or maybe like the tyrant commnader?
Or the slave driver lady?

>>49286612
>Like that guy who gives all your troops tough?

One living unit tough, opportunity cost of not getting a puppetmaster

>Or maybe like the tyrant commnader?

One unit gets Pathfinder. Six points.

>Or the slave driver lady?

Hang your head in shame.

>>49286655
>One living unit tough, opportunity cost of not getting a puppetmaster
FA2
>One unit gets Pathfinder. Six points.
Or +2 movement as long as you don't press forward. Or free stand ups. And a pow 12 weaponmaster for late game.
>Hang your head in shame
Faction purism doesn't even make sense here since she is a super fluffy model.

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>>49284158
>>Spriggan costs too much
The spriggan is fine, it's an Arm 21 heavy with reach weapon, bulldoze and utility flare. It's paying for above norm defensive stat, longer threat and utility.

The real fucking issue is that Torch exists with targeting flare for some fucking reason. Why not fucking smoke bombs? You know the thing that his master throws?

Shit like this is what riles me up about mkiii balance. There's always something bad because of redundancy. I can forgive Kossites being bad because they at least have the excuse of being a very unique piece in a Khador army.
It's the reason I really dislike the duplicated animi and duplicated point costs in beasts in Hordes. It's so fucking obvious what's good and what's bad since so many things overlap and you can just objectively count the numbers for efficiency.

Why would any troll player play the impaler when the bomber gives the same animus, have better stats, higher damage at less than 2x cost? It's just so fucking stupid.

>>49286840
You are just skirting the issue instead of addressing them.

>>49287376
What issue? That your opponent can interact with your models?
Or that there is an oppurtunity cost to buffing your models?

>>49287538
maybe he's just a cryxfag who wants an easy button faction

>>49287538
Yes.

Doing other shit doesn't change the fact that it's expensive to do the shit in the first place.

Who in the right mind is paying 6 pts for pathfinder?

>>49287618
Get with the times grampa, Cryx is shit now.

>>49287636
Not skorne, because we have access to 4pt pathfinder with saxon.

You take the tycom for Press Forward

>>49287652
Is that the meme now? I'll wait to see the tier lists when the meta settles more.

>>49287354
>Why would any troll player play the impaler when the bomber gives the same animus, have better stats, higher damage at less than 2x cost?
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the only reason the Impaler is 11 points instead of 8 is because the Troll battlebox had to be rounded out to 30 points.

>>49287764
So mk2 destroyer syndrome

>>49287764

Cyclops Raider suffers the same thing.

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>>49287764
And they couldn't be arsed to remove Ragnor's pts considering that he's actually good as a caster?

>>49287939
Points are more about limiting army size than any sort of balance concern anymore.

Not that WJ points have ever made any sense as a balance tool.

>>49282975

> Gators lost MAT, Pathfinder access, and HP.
> In return I get Pigs. I never asked for this.
> Can't pull fury off the vault, probably because pigs.
> Was excited for Iron Flesh change, but it was taken away.
> Jaga's still in a strange spot
> Troggers still bad
> More expensive version of Alexia with larger, easier to eliminate leader.
> No more throw shenanigans
> Boneswarm still useless (Animus:Locker, fixed)
> Crocdoc now has 0 synergy with Gatormen

I'm happy with ret this edition

>>49282975
> for some reason I now own 6 enigma foundries
> aurora is still essentially a meme castor
> our unique faction trait of prime number stats is no longer a thing
> it'd been 3 months and I can't find a single tournament list
> the fact that these shitty complaints are really all I can think of, but for some reason people don't still consider it god teir because no one is playing it for some reason

>>49282975

> Bart has 26 jack points. Battlegroup caster
> Alexia lost her spell hate for Spell Ward
> Boomies got gutted
> Backswing for nobody (ya feel me Khador?)
>Nick only gives WoS to Halberdiers instead of all Steelheads.

Nitpicky shit though, Mercs got so much better overall.

>>49289034
I think Aurora got a lot better, honestly, it's just the fact that no one plays, as you said. She's got an incredible assassination instead of a shitty one now.

>>49287764
Thats dumbass.
Impaler should have a place in lists.
Thats like one of the oldest Troll models.

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>>49279115
>Top "Tryhard no fun allowed" Tier
Cygnar, Khador

>High "Always brings beer to game" Tier
Menoth, Trollblood

>Mid "Scoops if Turn 1 doesn't go my way" Tier
Legion, Cryx, Convergence

>Low "I play for fun" Tier
Circle, Mercs, Minions

>Skorne Tier
Skorne, Retribution

>>49289940

>Wurmwood's faction in "play for fun"

suuuure

>>49287736
Cryx can't deal with guns. The entire game is guns. Unless none of Cygnar/Ret/Khador/Legion's tier lists give them any benefits at all for taking anything with guns, AND Cryx gets a "lol u can't shoot me" tier it won't make a damn bit of difference.

>>49288564
Wow, that seems awful, why make pigs good at the EXPENSE of gators?

(I fucking love pigs but don't actually play the wargame so having half the faction lose their fun side really sucks. Can pigs and gators at least work TOGETHER now or still not really?)

>>49289940
That is wrong in so many ways.

>>49290914
The battlegroups are still limited based on the warlock, but you can mix and match all the units, solos, and engines.

>>49290408
Theme lists are such a shit way to balance a game anyway and if you have to nerf something out-of-theme so it wouldn't be broken in-theme you've fundamentally failed at game design.

So what is wrong and what do people most bitch about cygnar

>>49291320
People are assravaged by Caine and Sloan and have not yet realized that Haley2 is still queen.

>>49289940
>Menoth
>the "cool" faction

So you haven't played against pKreoss Redeemer spam yet?

>>49288564
> No more throw shenanigans

Wat. One of the Scottish WTC players entire gameplan is based around multiple heavies throwing Skarath at each other to get to enemy casters.

>>49290914
It's no longer Pigs or Gators, beyond their battlegroups, it's just minions.

Gators got better because they can bring all the pig stuff that they like having.

>>49289940
>pic
Le shitposte trollkine

>>49293986

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Hello, fellow warmahorders. I have little experience in this game, and I seek your advice:
I have brought one year ago a moderately sized Everblight amy, but never really got the chance to play it. Now, I'd like to introduce my gaming group - my closest friends - to Warmahordes by buying one of the new two player battle boxes, since they seem to be quite excellent deals. Anyway, I have no idea whether the units in those boxes are actually any good and if the armies perform decently and have an at least decent balance between them. Thus, I'd like to know which one would you suggest me, if any at all, between the Hordes and the Warmachine starter. Thematically I like all the armies included, so my personal preference should not be addressed as a relevant factor.

Thanks in advance and stay brutal.

I keep bringing a max unit of Beast Handlers with Hexeris1 to use offensively with Death March on the premise that Nihilators don't need it since they're already MAT7, but fuck man I'm sick of them not doing that much and my Nihilators missing. I guess I should stop trying to be a snowflake and just play normally. Though in my game today, my Aradus Sentinel put in hella work against a unit of Nyss Raptors. Two turns of picking one off while parking itself on the edge of a forest to make a bigass wall to shield Hexxy. 16 points that basically held off 18 points of grossly overpowered bullshit. I should also drop the idea of using Zaadesh as a Rushbot because Tag Team turn 1 is just better anyway. The Rush is overrated unless you're using WAY too much terrain.

>(Hexeris 1) Lord Tyrant Hexeris [+29]
- Razor Worm [7]
- Agonizer [7]
- Aradus Sentinel [16]
- Titan Gladiator [14]
- Titan Cannoneer [17]
- Bronzeback Titan [18]
Nihilators (max) [15]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [5]

This feels good. I've been toying with not using Nihilators recently, but sometimes you just need that tarpit. I just need to learn to spread them out more.

What would you recommend a starting Troll player to buy folks?
I like pretty much every caster except for Kalandra.
So are there universal picks?

>>49295352
>What would you recommend a starting Troll player to buy
A Cygnar battlebox.

>>49295407
Hahaha lold so hard! You are so funny!
(No.)

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I am just looking through the MKIII changes and trying to figure out what to do with my cute little dragonspawns. May I ask opinions on this list?

Legion Army - 75 / 75 points

(Absylonia 2) Absylonia, Daughter of Everblight [+28]
- Carnivean [19]
- Raek [8]
- Scythean [18]
- Seraph [14]
- Angelius [17]
- Shredder [4]
- Shredder [4]
Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1]
Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1]
The Forsaken [4]
The Forsaken [4]
Strider Deathstalker [4]
Strider Deathstalker [4]
Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1]

>>49295663
Is that the Absylonia whose feat gives beasts 2" reach for a round? My local Legion player swears by Blight Wasps with her. I've seen a unit of those Wasps take out an entire unit of Nihilators and a Soulward Extoller. Admittedly it took some pretty bad tough rolls, but Berserk and Overtake combined are not to be scoffed at. If you're clever about it you can do crazy amounts of damage.

>>49295714
Yeah, it is that one Absylonia. I know she can pull mad stunts with the wasps; I haven't included them since I don't have any at the moment and I was trying to make something with what I already own. Thanks anyway!

No small based infantry should have weapon master. If your faction has reasonably costed weapon master infantry, you should spam it, because it's overpowered as all fuck.

>5 charging Nyss Swordsman vs Titan Gladiator (30 boxes)
5((11+3.5*4)-19)
= 30

>1 Charging Titan Gladiator vs Titan Gladiator
1((16+3*3.5)-19) = 7.5
1((15+2*3.5)-19) = 3
4((16+2*3.5)-19) = 16
= 26

On top of having stupid damage output, the Nyss Swordsmen:
>Cost less (7.5 points versus 14, and the Gladiator is renowned for being VERY cost efficient)
>Have a bigger threat range
>Have higher MAT
>Don't require you to manage their fury

The way I'm seeing the balance in my head is this:
>Normal infantry (beats) weapon master infantry (beats) beasts

The problem? If you bring normal infantry and your opponent doesn't have or bring weapon master infantry, your normal infantry are dead points as normal infantry can't realistically do anything to heavies.

As a Skorne player, this puts me in a position where I'm sort of forced into not wanting to bring infantry, because if my opponent is just ramming warnouns down my throat, my cheap infantry can't do anything to them. P+S12 Nihilators are my best option owing to how well they can clog the board up and potentially deal with enemy infantry, but they can't for a second threaten heavies like weapon master infantry can.

Today I lost a Titan Cannoneer to free strikes from two Nyss Swordsmen. They spiked so fucking hard that I lost control of my asshole and basically conceded there. Two Swordsmen killed a fucking Titan. Like my god.

>>49295352
Mauler, axer, bouncer

Then burn everything until PP gets its head out their ass

>>49296168
Things are that bad for trolls? Hell.

>>49294917
Warmachine starter.

>>49296815
It's fine just bring Madrak2 and murder everything. Once everything is dead you can activate the rest of your army.

>>49296815
The faction is "ruined" in a sense that internal balance is out the window. Lists auto build and flexibility gone. Good stuff is blatantly good and bad stuff is unbelievably bad.

Trolls also lost faction identity in the transition and are just clueless in designs now

>>49296888
>The faction is "ruined" in a sense that internal balance is out the window
This describes so many factions right now. Skorne has like 2-3 good infantry, 3-4 good heavies, 0 good lights, 2-3 good solos, and a bunch of warlocks that don't stand out enough to build an army around their gameplan. The only coherent gameplan in the entire faction is Morghoul2, aka. the worst warlock in the game behind Naaresh

You pick the warlock with the best spells, then a bunch of the other good things, and go.

>>49296888
> bad stuff is unbelievably bad
I still dont understand why bushwackers have remained basically unchanged for over a decade. Who at PP thinks they're okay? They BARELY work with Grim1 & 2 and NOBODY else.

But hey, at least Convergence is fine, probably because PP forgot we exist. I should probably get around to buying a new faction deck and playing Warmahordes again now that I can actually run my vector spam armies on anyone but Synth.

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New player here. Been playing for about a month or so now?
I played 3 games as ret against my cryx friend yesterday, and lost all three.
First was a kaelyssa list into scaverous with a kraken. I got absolutely destroyed by a well placed blast on clogged up infantry.
Second was helynna into witches. Of the three this was the closest, and I ended up getting assassinated by a stalker.
Third was another kaelyssa into the same scaverous list. At this point I was pretty tired and forgot to feat, which fucked me.
Can someone give me some tips? Do you have any general advice against new players?

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>>49298008
2/3

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>>49298029
3/3

>>49298008
Don't clump, don't forget to feat?

Learn opponent's stuff. Ret demands that you know how to scalpel your enemies

>>49297653
CoC is in a good spot since they can't make all the existing models weaker to entice you to buy the new models like with the other factions, because they won't get another one before 2018

>>49295466
I don't think he was joking.

>>49298187
There was maybe two nerfs to models in faction, and Lucant got nerfed, and then buffs to everything else.

Hell, the Prime Axiom and the TEP, both which were very good models already, got some pretty substantial buffs.

>>49291320
I dunno what problem people have with Cygnar.
I wouldn't even take a gunline to tournament. So much stuff just shits on it now.
Fixed 5 los on coven, oracular visioned/decelerated + passaged battlegroup, hundreds of high arm boxes of khador or trolls.
Our Cygnar player is just in perpetual state of butthurt about every other faction sans Cryx.

>>49298008
You can space infantry to not get hit more than 1 model.
Don't stand in stalker threat range.
Don't forget to feat.
Duh.

>>49300075
You Cygnar player is bad.

Cyngar gunline doesn't win attrition, yes. But attrition isn't their goal.

>>49300075
Wow, your Cygnar player sucks ass.

Does Goreshade's Deathwalker benefit from Shadowmancer?

>>49300325
If its part of the battlegroup then it benefits.

>>49300460
Are unit members part of the battlegroup?

>>49296108
>my cheap infantry can't do anything to them
??????
What is penetrating strike, erosion, anatomical precision and burst fire?
Also boosted pow 12s are fine

>>49300554
Yes.

>>49300608
Alright, thanks.

Rhulic and Iosan book what would you like to see for the rpg.

>>49301185
Iosan houses in more info
More shit on the Fanes

>>49272702
Trollblood model decks where?

>>49301483
At your friendly local game store.

>>49301501
I mean, isn't anyone going to upload a PDF list to the docs in the OP, or am I missing it?

>>49301938
Why don't you do it?

>>49302026
Because I don't have them, otherwise why would I be asking?

>>49302198
Maybe you should go buy them and do it for the rest of us.

>>49302252
I'm sure someone else already has it.

>>49294917
Don't know enough about trolls to comment. The Skorne side of the 2-player starter comes with the ever-popular titan gladiator.

The two cyclops minis are okay, but very situational, and are often passed up for heavies. The praetorian swordsmen unit is very average, and will probably be replaced quickly by other, more capable units.

The caster is, as far as I am convinced, a pile of shit, and is a shining example of how PP had no idea what they were doing when they retooled Skorne for mk3.

The Warmachine one is probably the better choice.

>>49301185
Battemages so I can punch while I cast, swordsmen, Dawn guard, mage assassin's, fane priests. Crazy elf magic tech.

>>49302370
Skorne's new caster has one of the defensive feats in the game, along with a pretty damn good offensive spell.

He's just got so many traps built into his kit for a new player to fuck up with.

>>49302678
A defensive feat that isn't defensive enough to let his victim stats ass survive if he's forward enough to use it.

>>49302801
All he's got to do is put meat between him and his targets

+3 DEF/+3 ARM against melee for either the bugs or the Titans is a pretty huge swing.

>>49302678
I will agree on his feat and spell list being really solid. But it all feels wasted on him.

He lacks the Fury to really make use of his spell list, likely needing to boost to hit anything. His spells require playing him really forward, but he lacks any defensive tech to protect him from immediate and terrible retaliation. He lacks any way to channel his spells, which forces him to put himself in danger to use Mortality or Deadweight. His very average Fury stat also means he is more likely to need to boost the spells to hit with them, which further limits his survivability via transfers.

His feat is decent, but it will not stop an enemy from moving in and boosting to kill him anyway. Ranged attackers point and laugh at him and his feat, as they walk out of his control area and shoot him.

Witch Mark and weapon master are both trap options. New players might think this suggests he go and get into melee with something, but he is left in the front lines with no way to mitigate damage or protect himself. More experienced players will see that these abilities are there just for fluff, and are extremely situational at best.

At 15/14, with 16 health, he can't take any serious beatings, but he lacks any way to boost that, or safely lead from the front.

He feels a little bit like Skorne's cut-rate take on Deneghra, but missing the tools that let her work well.

>>49302834
A sentry is his best bet for that, since it can't be moved by slams. Other beasts, if used to screen threats, risk getting slammed into him.

>>49302951
His real problem is all the other stuff in Skorne.

An Mk2 Krea would be so good for him, for example.

And he's clearly built with Spell Slave in mind, they just keep trying to force that solo into relevance.

But I think a huge amount of his problems are the rest of the faction. better Krea, better Agonizer, better support stuff, all would help his game quite a bit.

>>49302951
Tbh he needs Bonegrinders or a Shaman in his list at all times.

>>49303092

Even that won't do anything about the counter-assassination on his feat turn. He needs a fucking squire.

>>49303003
Yeah, I know what you mean. He could have been pretty solid if he had access to the mk2 beast statlines, abilities, and support pieces.

As is, he pretty much has to play it extremely safe, and stick to maltreating, possibly enraging something, and casting psycho surgery to stay out of trouble.

The thought of PP trying to get us to use Marketh is both sad and amusing. Paying 6 points for what will likely be one cast of an offensive spell, to keep the caster safe seems like a somewhat poor trade. Cryx at least gets their spell slave for 2 points less.

>>49303092
I don't think bumping Deadweight to 10", or Mortality to 12" is really going to make him all that much safer. I'm also not terribly excited at the thought of paying 5-8 points for the paltry range boost, since that's still closer than he would like to be to the action.

>>49303122
Rumors are floating around that he will get a character drake to help him in some way. Not sure if it would channel, or extend his control range, or what. Still, knowing PP that's a year or more off, and that's just more support bloat that Skorne doesn't need or want.

>>49296108
you shouldn't be letting an opponent get 5 charges in, shouldn't be able to fit that many around

>>49296850
Judging on MK2 card he is not that powerful. What was changed?
>>49296888
Well, i will wait untill armybook is released then. Thought i like the powerhouse casters.
>>49297653
Yep, that makes me happy.
>>49298867
No, but covering another' wound with salt is not funny either.

File: Madrak2.png (35KB, 643x375px) Image search: [Google]

35KB, 643x375px

>>49303909

>Cygnar instead of Sigmar
>Skorne instead of Khorne

They truly went above and beyond with those

>>49303909
>Judging on MK2 card he is not that powerful. What was changed?

Rathrok now has innate grievous wounds instead of critical, and gives Madrak a fury every time he destroys a living enemy.

He had Field Marshal: Relentless Charge, and has it himself, as well.

Spellwise, he retained Blood Fury and Warpath, and lost Killing Ground for Eruption.

Feat now grants Overtake and Berzerk to all friendly faction models.

I'll let you piece this one together on your own.

>>49304053
What?

>>49304030
>>49304060
Oh fuck that is fucking brutal.
No troll cards leak yet by the way lol?
Feels like people do have those, but not sharing for some reasons. Not like i can demand it or something.

>>49304175
How is it a leak when it's been released for months

Buy a card pack or war room

>>49302281
Just download the leaks. They turned out to be 100% accurate.

It is funny
Cygnar mught be op, but the infaction balance is best it has ever been

>>49304789
Cygnar's always been a disaster that way. Something has to be horribly imbalanced in that faction.

>>49304053
Hmm,Cygnar possibly,but I'm pretty sure they didn't take the inspiration for skorne from khorne,skorne sounds innately like sandnigger shit

>>49300564
Cheap infantry can't do anything to heavies, I meant. 5 charging Nihilators will deal like 17.5 damage to a Gladiator then sit there doing nothing with their Berserk ability. Weapon masters with decent P+S are just so fucking good in this game.

>>49302678
>>49302834
Honestly Xekaar's feat is very overrated. I'd rate Naaresh's feat above it, it's just that average. Providing a DEF bonus to your titans is a slap in the face when they just lost 2DEF in this edition, so all you're really doing is putting them back where they used to be. It's the same problem Mordikaar has; his feat was undermined by Mk3 changes. Naaresh's feat still provides you with the ARM bonus, but also a STR bonus so you can go on the offense with it. Xekaar has the big bonus of having some actually good spells though rather than Naaresh's pile of incoherent shit that makes it look like he's a super solo.

Just don't fall into the trap of bringing lights with Naaresh because all of Skorne's lights are garbage like holy shit Cyclops are all so fucking bad except MAYBE the Brute.

>Cyclops Savage
8 points
P+S13
RNG2
MAT6
Has to spend fury to keep chewing infantry

>1 Nihilator
1.5 points
P+S12
RNG2
MAT7
Charges for free and gets free extra attacks

The only real advantage a Savage has over a Nihilator is ARM and boxes. But when you reach the point of legitimately comparing a beast to a single fucking grunt, I think you've already answered the question as to which is better.

>>49305659
I'm pretty sure infantry with Berserk should not be your designed heavy-wrecker.
Nihilators are made to mow through infantry, saying they're bad because they can't take down heavies is like saying Widowmakers are terrible because they suck at melee.

>>49305732
>I'm pretty sure infantry with Berserk should not be your designed heavy-wrecker.
>Nihilators are made to mow through infantry
Exactly! Skorne has no cheap (<=16pt) infantry capable of wrecking a heavy, purely because Skorne has no cheap infantry with weapon master. This means that if I bring Nihilators and my opponent doesn't bring a juicy target for them which can happen easily in Rock 'em Sock 'em Warnouns, they're just dead points. While a unit of Nyss Swordsmen are never dead points because they can just run at heavies and kill them.

>>49305732
>>49305746
Seems like there's a fundamental misunderstanding here on why Nihilators got taken so frequently in Mk2. There's nothing inherently amazing about berzerk infantry - it was always pretty rare to see a nihilator kill more than a couple dudes, even when they made it to combat.

They got taken because you need a screen unit for your battlegroup, and because the combination of decent SPD, reach, tough, and a reasonable points cost made nihilators the best unit for that role. It pushed them further ahead that their MAT and P+S meant they could do some work at the same time.

Things haven't changed much. You still need a screen unit, and nihilators still do it for a reasonable cost.

>>49304198
Lol, i am just deciding if i should play trolls. And now to check out if they actually are worth playing i should buy a deck or that smartphone thing? Hell no lol.

>>49306862
Just download the WHAC app in the OP, stop being such a faggot.

It doesn't matter anyway because the rules are meaningless without context, that's why you base your army choice around theme and aesthetics unless you're an autistic power gamer.

>>49306862
Go to the archives. Open a thread from before/around L+L. Download the leaked PDFs.

And no, it's a pretty bad time to start a Hordes faction.

>>49306862
> if they actually are worth playing
Son, if the only thing that matters for you when you choose which army to play is how well they perform on the table, you deserve to be left in darkness.

>enemy army has good shooty threat
>try to counter it with some models that have rules built to fight against shooty guys
>those shooty guys get rules that ignore the anti-shooty rules
Something does not add up.

>>49307233
>shooty guys get rules that ignore the anti-shooty rules
The root of the gunline problem.

>>49307347
Gunline lists can always be beaten with ARM skew
Bigger problem when they got that single unit that alone threatens your valuable shit

>Infantry units that cost 10/17 points drop to 8/15
>Slayer-chassis Helljacks go up to DEF14
>Leviathan/Sepulcher spikers become ROF2
>Spell Slave reverts to how it was in Mk2

Does this fix Cryx?

>>49307417
They stayed unfixed for year when they were broken as all hell; they can endure staying unfixed for a bit now that they're back in the mud.

>>49307505
So rather than having a game where all the factions are balanced, you want a game where certain factions are punished for having been too powerful in the past?

Garryth 1
- Banshee 18
- Moros 11
- Manticore 14

Invictors min 10
- Officers/Standard 4
- Souless Escort 1
Heavy Rifle Team 4
Mage Hunter Infiltrators Max 13
Mage Hunter Strike Force Max 16
- Eiyrss Attachment 6
Ghost Sniper 3
Mage Hunter Assassin 4

Would this work at all? Plink and attrit, then strike at the right moment.

>>49307537
I didn't hear Cryx players complain about things being unbalanced in MkII.

As for an actual answer, no, I would actually prefer actual balance, I'm just being a dick.

http://conflictchamber.com/#b51bgx2w2w0u27fYc_dK3Xf23y3y3x

Retribution Army - 75 / 75 points

!!! Your army contains a pre-release entry.

(Elara 2) Elara, Death's Shadow [+28]
- Griffon [8]
- Griffon [8]
- Phoenix [18]
- Gorgon [9]
House Ellowuyr Swordsmen (max) [16]
Mage Hunter Infiltrators (max) [13]
- Eiryss, Mage Hunter Commander [6]
Mage Hunter Assassin [4]
House Vyre Electromancers [8]
Arcanist Mechanik [2]
Arcanist Mechanik [2]
Stormfall Archers [9]

Have we seen actual spoilers for the new Journeyman2 Warlocks? Saw some speculation / possible leaks for Una2 floating around last week, but nothing confirmed.

>>49307505
You sound like a very spiteful individual.

>>49307417
>Infantry units that cost 10/17 points drop to 8/15
I don't think cost is the problem. It's the ability to deliver. I don't like this idea too much. It would make them too good in certain matchups while not really improving them in the matchups they struggle in.
>Slayer-chassis Helljacks go up to DEF14
Sounds cool.
>Leviathan/Sepulcher spikers become ROF2
The Sepulcher needs a bit more than that. But any bit less randomness sounds good to me.
>Spell Slave reverts to how it was in Mk2
I'd honestly be fine with that.

>>49307367
>Gunline lists can always be beaten with ARM skew
>Bigger problem when they got that single unit that alone threatens your valuable shit

*puts the head of the Basilisk Krea on a pole for all to see for the glory of #DESIGN SPACE!*

Not anymore it can't!

Soles complained about fluff hemming them in, but that *was* the Krea's fluff; hobgoblin samurai armies fighting cygnar, lolz-ing from their inertia-dump pockets at the hoksune-less fools actually trying to win wars with guns.

They can't blame anyone but themselves for that shit- they did what they had to, broke what they had to, to make gunlines funner. One of the things they broke was skorne. There was a benefit, there was a cost. They got the benefit. The cost was real.

>>49307999
Oh hi there Australian Satan. There's one bet I'm willing to take:

>Hey Skorne players, you complained about losing Fury 5 on the Bronzeback.
>Well fear not, because it's back! On Zaadesh2!

>>49308412
How much pain can a Skorne player take before one breaks?

>>49307702
Things weren't unbalanced in MkII. Scrubs just couldn't git gud once someone managed to break their go-to Haley list and they bitched until PP changed things and made it unbalanced. Inevitably, anything that breaks the game stems from Cygnar having asshats for players despite them having the paragon of the most Mary Sue OP 'caster to be in the game in their faction. Cryx got punished to shut Cygnar whiners up.

>>49308718
The whole faction does not center around the one caster

>>49308767
Then why the fuck does everyone field only Haley in Cygnar lists?

The state rests.

>>49306862
>out if they actually are worth playing
They kinda' aren't.

The only truly competitive warlocks are Madrak-2, Ragnor and Calandra (with Grissel-2, Grim-2 and Gunnbjorn being competent backups). Everyone else is pretty much garbage.

If you want a top-tier faction then Retribution, Cygnar, Khador (and maybe Convergence) is where it's at.

>>49308814
Because they like that.
But the faction itself was buffed all around to make it function properly as itself, not just around Haley. Because fixing Cygnar's merc obsession was a correct choice.

>>49308422
I'd expect Zaadesh2 to be Fury 6. He seems like he'd be a mid-line support caster, and being Fury 5 would push him too much into the same niche as either Morghoul or Xerxis2.

Unfortunately, his design (samurai swordmaster warlock) means he probably won't open up much in the way of playstyle for Skorne.

>>49308954
* Xerxis1

>>49308718
>Cryx got punished to shut Cygnar whiners up.
Oh please. Cygnar has had the easiest matchups into Cryx. All other factions had it worse.

>Things weren't unbalanced in MkII
You don't want to be take seriously, do you?

>>49308954
>He seems like he'd be a mid-line support caster, and being Fury 5 would push him too much into the same niche as either Morghoul or Xerxis2.
Yes, that's what you'd expect. But then again, you are a sane person, aren't you?

>>49290914
>>49293746
Seems dumb to nerf their base units.

But now I can essentially play that gang of gators and pigs from "Jack and the Scottsman" if I so choose...

I humbly bump and renew my request on opinions and critics on my list

>>49295663

>Legion Army - 75 / 75 points
>(Absylonia 2) Absylonia, Daughter of Everblight [+28]
>- Carnivean [19]
>- Raek [8]
>- Scythean [18]
>- Seraph [14]
>- Angelius [17]
>- Shredder [4]
>- Shredder [4]
>Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1]
>Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1]
>The Forsaken [4]
>The Forsaken [4]
>Strider Deathstalker [4]
>Strider Deathstalker [4]
>Blighted Nyss Shepherd [1]

>>49282975
>Ravagers lost everything that made them Ravagers
>eMorv got the eGaspy treatment (although admittedly not *quite* as bad)
>pMorv finally got some resistance to purification... to go with her primary reason to want it getting nerfed to shit
>druids lost pull
>goats still suck

>>49312414
Honestly if you have two forsaken I would try replacing some shepards, maybe with a bellows crew

File: CsKleTOVIAEvdEb.jpg large.jpg (78KB, 700x400px) Image search: [Google]

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>>49308437

I don't know. Let's try to find out!

>>49308954
>Zaadesh
>Samurai swordmaster
>MAT6
>P+S12
>No abilities
Heh. HEH.

>>49315510

And the Army of the Western reaches, the elite of an empire that are backboned by the Praetorian caste, who fight with two swords but after their training are only given one and told to get their other from another praetorian or die trying, are MAT6.

>Forget it, anon. It's skorne designspace.

>>49315843
Meanwhile the suicidal fuckheads who kill each other and have huge unwieldy swords are MAT7.

And the 8 foot tall Cyclops that can see into the future and carries a two handed sword that's almost as big as him is MAT6 and PS13.

And the hounds that can rip and tear through boxes with their flanking only get 1 damage spiral per card when the card says 2 hounds for 7 points.

And the heavy that's a walking infantry thresher machine has 1" range and an animus that deals damage to beasts.

And Makeda1 got nerfed.

My god I am so pissed at the Mk3 changes or lack thereof. The fact that Cyclops are so weak and unplayable yet are forced down the throats of anyone who wants a battlebox is ridiculous. Battleboxes are meant to get people playing the game, and new Skorne players get 2 completely unplayable models.

FUCK.

>>49315973
>we included the raider in the Skorne starter to teach new players how shooting works
> -Jason Soles
>for same cost, could hace made the starter a gladiator and cannoneer, and given players two useful models, and still taight them about a mechanic their army doesn't really have any support for outside of a feat or two

I guess the intent was to have the raider soften enemies on the way in, have the savage give Xekaar future sight to help hit in melee, to land a spell with witch mark, needing to boost only if necessary. Then have the gladiator move in to clean up the debuffed enemy forces.

Too bad it plain doesn't work.

>>49316912
Shooting is just a melee attack with RNG10 though. PP ruined the Skorne battlebox for THAT? They've never actually playtested Skorne, have they. Anytime you might want a Raider, you should bring a Cannoneer.

Design space isn't even an excuse at this point, it's just incompetence. The Khador box got 2 heavies. Skorne is meant to be the Hordes equivalent of Khador.

I am so fucking pissed that I can't buy Xekaar without having to buy shit lights at the same time.

File: Lead Designer of WarmaHordes.jpg (10KB, 848x74px) Image search: [Google]

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>>49317057
>Design space isn't even an excuse at this point, it's just incompetence.

File: Untitled.jpg (490KB, 1282x897px) Image search: [Google]

490KB, 1282x897px

>>49317196
>The entire competitive community recognizes the existence of Skornegy and how having 2 mediocre options is worse than having 1 good option
>He swats away thousands of hours of real world playtesting with an awful attempt at wit

BRUTAL CHARGE – This model gains +2 to charge attack damage rolls with this weapon.

JUMP – After it makes a full advance during its Normal Movement but before it performs its Combat Action, you can place this model anywhere completely within 5˝ of its current location. Any effects that prevent charging also prevent this model from using Jump.
POUNCE – During an activation in which this model was placed as a result of using the Jump ability, its Mount damage rolls are automatically boosted.

You may have one, but not both. Not like it matters because it's 21 points for 5 of these 13/17/5 box fuckers whose only combat option is suiciding to kill a couple infantry. What's that? You expect an infantry model that costs 4.2 points per model to have better combat stats than a single 1.5 point Nihilator? Hah, get fucked kid.

>>49317332
That's not real Skorngy, not anymore, because the mount attacks are boosted on the jumps.

There's benefits to both. Jumping gets you into weird angles and boosted rolls, while charging gets +2 to the damage and boosted attacks.

No, Mk2 Ferox, where you got nothing out of the jump, was Skorngy.

This is not to suggest that Ferox are amazing or anything, but the models and their rules actually work now. It's their price point and general stats that are the issue.

>>49317332
>"Working as intended" sometimes does not mean "something we should not fix".

>We don't think in terms of competitive or not competitive. Rather we ask whether a model has a place. We try to make sure that every model has a place to shine. That said I would say this is a goal we try to achieve rather than a box we definitely check.

>That said, I seem to be in the minority because I actually like the Rhinodon (I fully comprehend that model was not the best recieved in current incarnation).

>I think the dire trolls are very much a part of the Trollbloods. The fact that there is not one in the battle box does not mean otherwise. Those boxes were designed with specific building blocks in mind and were geared toward teaching the game to new players. We just couldn't get a dire troll in there and make it work. And we tried a lot of configurations to do so.

>May be someday. I do not have solid plans for [a venator warlock] right now though inspiration could strike.

>I think part of the issue with the Skorne is that their themes are so rigid. They are very tightly defined and their aesthetic is rock solid. Whenever we try and even add something as simple as a ranged unitt o them we start debating the Hoksune code.
>They want to be a disciplined fighting melee fighting force, and they are, but sometimes it is difficult to grow them out from there.

>Yeah, similarly to how we changed the Choir in the Protectorate we wanted to somewhat reduce the power level of the Beast Handlers. The change here allows for other changes elsewhere.
>on being asked if +2 STR and free charge was too strong on PGBH

>>49317057
Raider was clearly meant to hunt stealth solos, while having some use against big targets if there are none to kill.

Now, it's bad at this, and a bad choice besides, but that's it's role.

I don't think they didn't playtest Skorne, but it's the issue people have already discussed:

Skorne is meant to be a counter punch faction, a combo of attrition and control elements. This is a tactic that's incredibly difficult to design for, because there's a very narrow balance, with "terrible as shit" and "amazingly good" being steep fall off points. And the tactic is also very bad in that a lot of players find it unfun to play against(the same issue heavy gunlines and control lists have), so there's this pressure to keep it from being good. I mean, hell, look at all the bitching control got in Mk2 and gunlines are getting now, that would be Skorne if they were good at their tactic.

Combine that with the dev team being unwilling to actually switch their strategic design, and you get where Skorne is now, and will likely stay.

>>49308954
Zaadesh's design is arguably to be the Glossu Rabban of Skorne.

Everything Skorne is based on Dune
Leto Raelthorne = Shaddam Corrino IV
Vinter Raelthorne = Duke Leto Atreides
Asheth Magnus = Gurney Halleck
Julius Mother = Lady Jessica
Dominar Rasheth = Baron Harkonnen
Akkad Balaash (or arguably Makeda/Zaadesh) = Glossu Rabban
Supreme Archdomina Makeda or Tyrant Zaadesh = Feyd-Rautha
Lord Assassin Morghoul = Stilgar
Saxon Orrick = Liet-Kynes?
Lord Arbiter Hexeris = Gaius Helen Mohiam?
??? = Paul Atreides

>>49317661
I would argue that Morghoul is Piter or Hawat, and Orrick is Duncan Idaho. I'm also not sure it all falls neatly into Dune, as Xerxis has no real analogue. A lot of it is dune themed though.

I've got the mk2 and mk3 menoth box, Amon, a reckoner, a redeemer, a devout, and a vigilant to start my Amon jackspam off with. Also a choir and a vassal. What should I expand on?

Right now the list has 2 crusaders, 1 reckoner, 1 castigator, 1 devout, 1 repenter, 1 revenger, 1 redeemer, 1 vigilant, the choir and the vassal.

>>49317057
http://www.discountgamesinc.com/hordes/opened-used/beast-tamer-xakaar-used-unassembled.html

Op might be a faggot, but he delivers.
http://rgho.st/6kM8mdgw9

>>49272702
So, question: As a Cyriss player, is Aurora the best infantry caster choice I've got? Or should I look at all my other options? Also, are SteelSpul protectors any good in mk3?

>>49321204
>Also, are SteelSpul protectors any good in mk3?
They are freaking awesome.

>>49321261
Good to hear: any particular reason? Or just a stat boost in general?

>>49321204
Aurora's the black horse of the faction, she does shit no one else does.

She's arguably the most mobile caster in the game now, and she does some crazy shit.

She, however, has no damage buff, and that's a real problem for her in the current meta. She also tends to get shot pretty hard as well.

Axis and Lucant can both run infantry as well, Axis's feat is very nice, and Lucant has Positive Charge along with his feat to keep them safe on the way in.

>>49321306
Steelsouls are cheap as shit, Shield Guards, and weapon master Defensive Strikers. It creates some real nasty shit for your opponent.

With Aurora, I pretty much max FA in every list, most other lists get 1-2.

>>49321336
Well currently, I have a smallish army of Cyriss; the Starter box, a unit of Eradicators, Reductors, and Clock Work Angels, as well as a additonal Mitigator, a Corollary and two enumerators, with Syntherion as my Warcaster. For obvious reasons, this is a rather awful list. I mostly want to be playing rather fast ad furious, as I am honestly getting a tad bit sick of the slow, plodding Warjack wall. Plus, in my upcoming two man campaign, I'll be playing against either a Cyrx or a Everblight army, so mobility is gonna be key.

>>49321530
So, the first thing about CoC is that outside of Lucant, you're a lot faster than you think, it just takes a lot of extra setup.

In fact, the general rule of CoC is "It takes a lot of setup".

So, with Syntherion, between Mag Hold and a Diffuser shot, you're adding +4 to your charge range, making even your SPD4 jacks threaten a minimum of 12", which is a very respectable range. The trick is making all of that work, and all the little steps besides that do it.

And yes, Synth hates himself some infantry, though he doesn't mind himself some Steelsouls. It's all jacks and solos, all the time with him.

Aurora's a caster that can teach bad habits if you try and infantry swarm with anyone else, but she can be pretty damn fun.

>>49317196
That's not necessarily false, though. A unit doesn't necessarily have to have all of their abilities in play at once - it's perfectly fine to have some toolbox units/models, which can handle a variety of situations. They just have to be costed appropriately. It's not fair to design a toolbox unit and price it as if it'll be using everything all the time.

So does anyone actually use Long Gunners, or are they still the red-haired stepchild in Mk3?

>>49323753
I'd use them if I owned them. With Snipe they pretty comfortably outrange the most popular gunline units (even Invictors with Assault and Minifeat). They might not be as accurate as Kovnik guided Team Rocket, but with CRA it should be enough.

>>49323753
Only seen them on the table a couple times these last few months, but they're definitely WAY more interesting than they were in Mk2. They actually didn't change much themselves, but they got comparatively cheaper, picked up a UA that actually does something, and their stiffest competition (ATGM + UA) took a significant hit.

On the flip side, they have some new competition in the form of the new, shiny Trenchers, who have less absolute output but much more versatility. I suspect the LG's still need some outside help to work, Snipe being a favorite, but I think you'll see them turn up in some lists now.

>>49323753
Impressive output (when aiming), but unfortunately they still die to a stiff breeze.

They like the new GMCA a lot - that's a peanutbutter-and-chocolate combo. He fixes their accuracy and lets them light up stealth / prowl / high-DEF heavies (or an exposed caster), which are their preferred targets.

Has privateer press a fetish for evil chicks?

>>49325474
Does anyone not have a fetish for evil chicks?

>>49272702
Can anyone post some lore, stories or anything fluff related that features the Convergence of Cyriss? I cant seem to find anything related to them, outside of their army book

>>49324658
>>49324622
>>49323800

Thank god. Because it kinda seemed like ATGM's and Trenchers just offered more, in the way of gun line options. And revolver rifles are personal love of mine since Borderlands.

>>49324658
I'd wondered about that, but Power 10 shots, and terrible base stats make me wonder how effective they really are, even with CRA and two shots.

>>49326093
At the end of the day you're gonna reach for Trenchers first. Or Stormlances, oh god Stormlances. Or maybe Trenchers AND Stormlances.

Like Cygnar inverted their problem from Mk2, now they've got two of the best fucking unit choices in the game and they wildly overshadow their less good but still ok other units.

>>49326119

Yeah, I'm noticing a lot of Trencher/Stormblade combos. Screen then charge, respectively. It's great. Mk3 seems like it's patched up so many of the dubious units from V2.

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>>49278956
I'm loving the desperation in the Troll groups

>But his protective aura could stack with da stone!
>They could totally errata the stone to stack!
>Maybe it does something different and he won't have to camp all his fury!

No you idiots, that isn't how this game works

>>49323753
I have a friend that uses them with siege. Sets them in a foxhole and they go to work.

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>>49326863
>Sets them in a foxhole and they go to work.
Oh praise Menoth, yes please. I love dudes crammed together in tight spots for me to casually set on fire.

>>49326958
You found the secret of the game, not all tactics work versus all lists, you are now ready to become the champion.

>>49278956

What tough hate is there?

There's snipers and alten ashley. Snipers only deny tough on a model they personally box, and alten only puts grevious on one model. Butcher3 for example lost the ability to hand out grevious wounds. There's not many ways for most factions to actually deny tough to a bunch of steady 4+ tough trolls, only to deny it to a couple of high profile models.

>>49327023
Don't be stupid.

This tactic is just bad and is going to suck against a lot of armies. Rule two of this game is don't clump up your dudes if you don't have to. Sprays, fire, corrosion, etc are all very common.

>>49327108
Actually I'm an idiot I forgot that butcher 3's thing still denys tough rolls, it's just not full grevious.

Still, in khador that means one caster can deal with it (via the melee attacks of one model/unit), and a handful of snipers that deal with it if they get the kill in which doesn't mean a lot vs 5 box trolls.

>>49327108
Anything with Grevous Wounds, Sniper, Deadly Shot, and so on. Ignoring tough is a pretty easy thing for most factions now

>>49327023
Electro leap, aoe spells that don't deal blast damage, aoe on hit effects that don't deal blast damage, upkeep removal then aoes, sprays.

>>49326628
Hey, they're getting in character as troll kin.
>Somehow, things got worse.

>>49327108
>>49327139
>>49327202
Meant to add that for Khador this means models like Widowmakers, the Marksmen, Kell, Alten, Eiryss, Assault Kommandos (if you're feeling crazy) and a couple others I can't remember off the top of my head.

If you play Khador Madrak3 won't even make you sweat. You just delete important stuff at range and move on with your life.

>>49327257
I want off this ride. It'll only get worse when PP inevitably nerfs Madrak2 into the ground

>>49327202
A unit of widowmakers and a marksman shoot at a unit of troll warders. Shield guard spreads the damage around so that none of them dies, and since snipers only ignore tough if they personally get the kill nothing happens.

Or, they all focus down one champ, and so 12 points of snipers kill one champion and deny it a tough roll.

If a khador player takes every sniper option available to them, I think they can drop three champs a turn ignoring tough, at a cost of 24 points worth of shooting. Vs warders they'll be able to shield guard the deadly shots around and stop anyone from actually dying.

For another 5 points the khador player can put out an alten ashley shot to make one troll model have grievous wounds on it.

Is it possible to do some damage? Yeah, sure. If you build specifically for it. But you have to go to some pretty extreme measures to have enough tough ignoring to put a dent in a decent sized troll force. Even with butcher3's spell it only ignores tough if the model with the upkeep personally boxes with a melee attack.

>>49327327
If you're shooting at Warders you're doing it wrong. Punch them in the dick or get them to waste their shield guards on less valuable but deadly shots. Warders do fuck all against your guy's outside of Shield Guard and maybe killing a couple dudes assuming you don't kill them all on the charge.

It's Khador, you should have zero issues with Trolls.

And even if you are incapable of using your amazing ranged and melee tools Madrak3 still only offers his infantry a 50/50 shot at living.

>>49327428
A 50/50 shot and steady. So if it lives it's still there ready to be shot or punched again and make another tough roll.

I've been playing irusk1 and my opponents get buttmad about his feat with black dragons and shock troops. And it's basically the same feat.

>>49327672
>I've been playing irusk1 and my opponents get buttmad about his feat with black dragons and shock troops. And it's basically the same feat.
Both of those are significantly better than Troll infantry and you still have the option to shoot that one box model with a Widowmaker. You're way over analyzing this, you should have zero issues taking trolls off the table already, then getting a sub par caster shouldn't change that

>>49327847
I didn't say I had trouble with it, I said I would have to build for it. Not every list is going to invest 30 points into taking my full assortment of anti-tough tech, most lists will just have one solo or a unit of widowmakers.

>>49325760
The NQs right around the time the faction dropped have a fair bit of fluff for Convergence in them.

>Selling out of Magic, will have a good chunk of change, enough to buy any Warmahordes shit I want
>I play Skorne and don't want a second faction
>Literally not joking, that's the case
What buy? I'm sort of considering a Mammoth, but I don't like the idea of models that I don't have room in my case for. I already have Nihilators and Cetrati so don't really need any infantry. Don't want Karax because I don't rate them and I hate models with spears after playing with Cetrati. I might just buy a ton of warlocks. Zaal needs infantry so I'll avoid him, and Xerxis2 has the Mammoth problem. Then maybe another Gladiator and Void Spirit + Tormentor. So few playables in this faction man.

>>49330293
Sell the Skorne as well and buy a real faction

>>49330479
LOL

XDDD!!!!!

>>49330479
nice meme!

>>49330293
Buy what you like the looks of.
Buying models for the associated rules is fedora tier waacfaggotry

How reasonable would Wraithguard/Blades and WraithLords be as proxies for Scyrah Light & Heavy Jacks?

The biggest hurdle for me getting into Warmachine has been the aesthetics of the jacks, and this solves that problem for me.

How appropriate would solo cups be as proxies for khador jacks?

>>49331743
The diameter is too large.

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Elfqaida Players feast your eyes on Helios.

>>49331711
Friendlies not many people care. If you want to play in any sort of competitive format the you're shit out of luck. PP is anal as fuck about their conversions

>>49332320
>PP is anal as fuck about their conversions
Unless they're official models that don't follow the rules, like the new Ghetorix holding his axe with one hand, or the new Tiberion whose tusks aren't actually connected to his mouth.

>>49332307

Ah, just look at that economically costed army-support gargantuan. I mean colossal.

>fucking #designspace

>>49332575
>>49332320

To be honest they are lenient to conversions in some ways. For example, if you want to replace Xerxis' Pillars of Hallak it has to be some kind of bludgeoning weapon (for example, you could get away with using 2x Ragnor's weapon). If you want to replace Macbain's sword its got to be a 2h sword. Generally as long as you stick to same general classification its okay.

>>49332790
Did it get worse in mkiii? I honestly don't know

>>49332915
>>49332575
>>49332320
The big problem is their use of the chassis model.

When the only difference between a Destroyer and a Juggernaught is the weapons, then yea, you gotta be pretty specific.

>>49333078
Lost Fire Immunity and now Broadcast Power only works if they activate within 3" of Helios after he uses Broadcast Power. Very slight nerfs but he's 34 points so can't really complain. Double Helios and Hyperion under Helynna at 75 Points is a thing too so there's that.

>>49331509
>>49330662
I'm not memeing here, I'm serious. I held out hope through all of MKII for them to fix Skorne, then when MKIII was announced, I was like, finally! They will be great again! And then the Insider hit, and the leak, and I felt overwhelming dread, these can't possibly be real, and then it was real. Then I said, well maybe it's not as bad as it looks so I played some games. And it was that bad. I sold everything and bought into two other factions and have finally had fun with this game.

>>49333243
Why the hell is WMH and PP so spastic about conversions? Isnt warmachine based around bases? Fuck, even GW is more lenient than that.

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Any opinions from my fellow komrades on this list? I really wanna make this icy bitch work and this seems like it can effectively make use of all of her tricks- practically the whole thing can crack armor, clear infantry, ignore enemy spells, benefit from Occult Whispers/ feat, and has added hilarity with stuff like stealing both souls and corpses from living victims and countercharging enemies who get near mai waifu 3 times over. Could drop the Destroyer and 3 Outriders for 50 point games. Destroyer's just there because oftentimes I really really want a Bombard to answer some problems and you can never have too many Mk3 Khador Jacks. Since I'd have to proxy everything but the Juggernaut, War Dog and Doom Reaver squad I'd like some other opinions before I throw down the big bucks.

On a somewhat related note, anyone else try Old Witch in this edition and absolutely love the fuck outta her? God damn constant free apparition is gross and I've always loved her bag of tricks. The Avatar of Slaughter buff is just gravy and the feat change is pretty fine by me as infantry still can't get anywhere near her and if you let your Baba Yaga get caught out by big slow War____s you're probably retarded anyway, especially with premeasuring being a thing. I always roll her with Behemoth, Weald Secrets to see through forests with twin bombards is as hilarious as it is gross.

>>49335710
Some of it is just annoying, and they've done some to fix it.

Like, before the mecha legion stuff came about, a conversion had to be 50% of the original model, instead of 50% of any PP model.

The whole weapon thing stems from the fact that certain weapons get certain rules, which is why they say axe to axe, sword to sword, etc, etc. If you actually look, most weapons of the same type tend to share the same stats, it's usually the models stats that modify the result.

And as for the warjack/warbeast thing, I hit on that: When the only difference between some warjacks is their weapons, those are the only things to identify them with.

As for the add on kits, it was to avoid any possible confusion, again. This is one of the worst ones for me, because of the Gheto reason discussed above. Their new model is technically illegal under their own conversion rules, which means the rules need to get changed.

However, at the end of the day, the deciding factor is the TO, not the rules, and the rules are just there as a guideline and a safety net. TO's ok plenty of technically illegal conversions all the time, because they're the one that matters, even by the rules.

>>49321118
WTF is this?

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>>49335710
Don't forget that a model has to be 100% assembled. So if you find some part of it offensive and leave it off Like really WoW is super overrated stop with the pauldrons already your model can be dq'd

>>49335710
So people know what they're playing against without having to go, "Ok, what the fuck is that thing, again?"

>>49335956
You see, you say that like as if there werent cards that specifically tell you what that mini is, and what it can do. Its not like 40k, where one unit can have a variety of weapons; if you bring a berzerker card, I can remember what that mini represents.

>>49335897
Holy crap, I'd call that a parody, but that is clearly legit art.

>>49336329
Yea, except that you can get warjacks(where the issue is really at) confused pretty easily.

The only real difference between a destroyed and a juggy, for example, is that one has a gun and one has a fist.

>>49336329
It's about being able to identify a model on the tabletop at a glance while juggling the stats and abilities of dozens of models in your head all under a time limit. If you've got a bunch of models that look nothing like they normally look like, forgetting what shit is supposed to be and what it can all do becomes a lot easier under those conditions.

If it's casual play and you've got all the time in the world to dick around on your turn, fine, but at tourneys that shit turns into a pain in the ass.

>>49336382
>forgetting about the headspike
mk2+ baby detected

>>49336617
I'm talking about the model, and it's nearly impossible to tell the difference between heads across the table.

>>49332307
It's like someone watched Escaflowne before sitting down to sculpt this.

>>49334158
>I sold everything
Someone actually bought your Skorne?

>>49335897
I still want an edit of that image where he's holding her panties instead of her eyefold. If only I wasn't shit with PS/GIMP.

>>49338154
It'll sell if you slash the price low enough. Or sell to some innocent, apple-cheeked new guy that hasn't read up on anything mk3 related.

>>49334158
I've been doing fine with Skorne at my LGS. The only problem is the local Legion player that for some reason I can't lay a finger on.

(Naaresh 1) Master Ascetic Naaresh [+32]
- Molik Karn [20]
- Bronzeback Titan [18]
- Titan Cannoneer [17]
- Titan Gladiator [14]
- Agonizer [7]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (max) [7]
Nihilators (max) [15]
Extoller Soulward [3]
Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4]
Swamp Gobber Bellows Crew [2]

Haha look at me I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. There's good heavies, Karn half for his animus so Naaresh can run into infantry then get far enough away to NOT DIE, Nihilators because they're the best infantry we have which isn't saying much but they're a good Blur target, there's an Extoller to blow up heavies (BTW THIS IS HORDES SKEW), a Willbreaker for Puppet Master, a Tormentor because I don't fucking know fuck it I'll remove it and max the Handlers/add a Bellows Crew okay there we go.

Remember kids, lights with Naaresh are a trap! Your heavies can already pancake anything, so don't be afraid to just push your heavies forward, feat, and make the baby cry. 24ARM titans won't die!

>>49340210
Molik is shit (trivial to shoot).
Bronzeback is shit (4 points more than a better titan).
Nihilators are shit (DEF16 still gets shot trivially).

Remove that shit ad add more Gladiators and Cannoneers. Or Soldiers.

>>49340313
Who the fuck cares if Molik is trivial to shoot? He's still 18ARM. I'd consider removing Molik and adding a Gladiator and something just because Gladiators are just stupid good. Maybe even adding Cetrati since I'm already running an Agonizer. 22ARM infantry, 24ARM beasts, all just pushing into the zone. And a warlock that can stroll up to shit with big damage, then Cyclone away like a little faggot. I sort of want to bring an Archidon for this, but like, I don't want to bring an Archidon ever. Or own one. But being able to use Naaresh to clear infantry is hella tempting.

>>49340363
I don't know if Naaresh is the right caster for the Cetrati brick. That's something best left to Xerxis or Makeda.

>>49340398
Makeda lost defender's ward. I've found Cetrati to be a big hurdle with just an Agonizer as support. The Willbreaker can also give them tough which is always nice. There's not really room for Vorkesh but we're not that deep into our brick so what the fuck ever. All Cetrati need is more ARM skew which the Agonizer gives.

Is it possible to play a Cygnar Stormblade, which believes in Menoth but don't like the Protectorate?

>>49340602
Loads of people are Mennites but don't agree with the Protectorate.

>>49335897
Except that's not true.
You need a minimum of 50% of the origin model, it needs to look like what it is and the weapons need to be the same.

>>49340815
You don't need the original model anymore, you just need 50% PP parts

>>49340445
I mean Makeda2. Her Martyrdom light can be quite obnoxious.

Why is nobody posting the fact that the Indictor is finally getting released?

>>49341470
It's okay. The sword looks a bit silly but could just be the angle. They should have stuck to the illustration.

>>49333243
>>49335710
>>49335956
The conversion rules are 99% percent about streamlining gameplay. Unlike GW, Privateer isn't trying to use the rules to penalize people for using parts from other companies (though admittedly, they don't have nearly as many copycats).

The game rules are such that it's important that models be instantly recognizable. With jacks and beasts especially, this means that, yeah, weapons are important. This is just like GW insisting on WYSIWYG for space marine weapons.

Unfortunately, Privateer painted themselves into a corner a little bit with the epic and 1/2/3 versions of models. Initially, it wasn't a big deal, because there were only a few examples and the epics were wayyy different looking from their prime versions. But now there are dozens of them and quite a few (like the doomys or makedas) are virtually indistinguishable from one another. So they're forced into making people use the exact model.

>>49335857
The last time i checked it was trollbloods deck.

>>49342625
>Random post out of nowhere that references nothing in the thread
>It's a link using a URL shortener
Yeah fuck off and take your trojans elsewhere.

So, as the conversion rules stand, could I get away with having a Dawnguard Sentinel Officer reposed and adjusted so that rather than one big sword, he has two longish wrist-blades? I'm going with a bit of a Protoss vibe for my list, and I'm painting the blades up in a lightsabers style.

Same figure, only possible UA for Sentinels, just two dangerous looking wrist blades rather than one big sword.

Does it change anything as far as representation wise if he's clearly in a Sentinel unit, and clearly the officer?

>>49342698
Technically not legal, but most TOs wont mind as long as it looks cool.

>>49342698
Gotta say I'd find it a little annoying to play against if for example the big sword is supposed to have reach and 1 attack and you give him 2 small blades instead. I'm all for cool looking models but when it comes to actually playing the game conversions like that could be argued as confusing your opponent to get an advantage.

>>49340602
I think storm blades must be morrowan.

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>>49342698
>rather than one big sword, he has two longish wrist-blades?
Only if the officials at a big tournament let you get away with it. If you're at a LGS then you'll probably get away with it. My local Legion player uses 40k models on 50mm bases as his cavalry because he ain't paying for the real ones when he has models already that fit the bill. They have spears, they're mounted, fuck it.

>>49342818
>Gotta say I'd find it a little annoying to play against if for example the big sword is supposed to have reach and 1 attack and you give him 2 small blades instead
This here is a Skorne Paingiver Beast Handler. It has one attack with 2" range.

>>49342887
I don't think any TO is really going to mind, but it'd be a massive kick in the teeth to have to maintain two figures, for spergs and non-spergs.

>>49342818

The thing is, the entire unit has the same weapon. You'd only have to look at the card. What you'd NEED to know is that it's the officer, but that's not concealed at all. And he's still in the post where he's stretching out one arm, blade extended beyond, so it's not like he's got a shank and all hunched up or something.

>>49342719
Because it's two blades rather than 1 big one? So I could change the blade, but it would have to be both big, and alone?

>>49340602
You can be a Menite without believing in the Protectorate, but know that the protectorate is ass deep in miracles and divine signs.

>>49342887
Yeah and I'd find that model a pain in the ass to play against for the same reason.
>>49342946
0I mean it wouldn't be a HUGE pain but it's not unreasonable to expect the unit leader of a unit I'm not super familiar with to have their own weapon or attack type unique to the rest of their squad. I think I'd get it but I'd definitely have to ask about it and/or look at the card once or twice and that's just a bit of a pain. If you're cool with doing that to the guy across the table for aesthetics I won't say you're entirely wrong either.

>>49343004
Since half of Beast Handlers have a whip and the other has knives, when using multiple units I split them into knives and whips to make it easier for my opponet to distinguish units :3c

I also colour code my bases so my opponent can see what's what on sight. Warlocks have a red outer ring, solos have a purple one, unit leaders have gold. Because I'm gonna fucking beat you and give you no excuses as to why you lost to Skorne.

>>49343034
Good man, you sound like a guy who I would be happy to have a game and a beer with. It's not your fault the models come that way after all.

>>49343004

I'm a pretty new player, so if they're alright with me pawing through their cards to figure out just what sort of units I'm facing, and reminding me what that little potion symbol means again, I could hardly refuse the same service to them.
As it is a diversion from the norm, I suppose I'll make a specific note of mentioning what it is before the game starts. Not that Sentinels need much introduction, I find. They have that going for them.

>>49342698
People on the internet are really, really anal retentive about the conversion policy to the point it's not worth posting or talking about conversions most of the time. In real life no one actually gives a fuck assuming they even notice.

I have a converted Trollkin Fell Caller that I've played with for years and no one's ever noticed or questioned it. When brought up the usual response is 'I didn't even know what the actual model looks like'.

So do whatever you want, but if you want to be safe and avoid the grognards go for just one wrist blade instead of two since the officer only has one sword. Of you go with two the first response you'll get is 'Hurrrr the model only has one attack. This conversion confuses my pathetic brain, gtfo srub'.

>>49343282
True, important not to make too much of it. That said, I think a lot of the people here are just trying to be helpful and make the new player avoid a potential pitfall.

Best test, and one PP recommends, is just hand your converted model to another player (who knows the game pretty well) with no explanation and ask them what model they think it's supposed to be. If they can identify it right off, then you're most likely not going to have any problems. If they're confused, you may want to rethink and/or redesign it a bit.

To that end, more skilled painters and modelers can probably get away with more outlandish conversions than others, because they'll be able to maintain the visual cues that tip people off, even while changing everything else.

>>49344199
We're talking about the same community that bans non lipped 30mm bases because of reasons. I have zero faith in the community when it comes to conversions.

>>49344752
>community that bans non lipped 30mm bases because of reasons
Bull. Shit.

>>49344765
Read the conversion rules. Models have to be a 30mm round lipped base provided by PP. Therefore flat base = banned model

I'll see if i can find the rules forum that but it's about as stupid as good expect. This was the same community that suggested resin bars should be banned and that TOs would go around checking energy model.

You're also not allowed to sculpt or 3d print replacement parts for your models because that would infringe on PP's up or some stupid shit. The community is insane sometimes

>>49345032
>Therefore flat base = banned model
What if I get a lipped base and put PVA glue on it then sprinkle shit to base it, and in doing so make it appear as if there's no lip?

>>49345466
It's a round lipped base so it'd be fine. Round bases like from GW of infinity are banned

Got a quick question for any cryx players how effective is ILO and what Jacks do you often pair it with?

>>49345032
Yeah that ruling is never going to get enforced. I mean, sure they should be standard size, but nonstandard bases have NEVER been the grounds for disqualification.

>>49346099
Seethers or slayers imo. Both are cheap enough to rush in for providing dark shroud, but they both also love stealth for getting there with their arms in tact