/wmh/ Warmachine and Hordes General

It's dead, Jim.

A friend wants help with his Ret, he's a bit of a retard to be fair. Could any one point me the right way as to which War caster to use with what units / 'jacks.

>>49073572
Yeah, I don't think we really need regular threads anymore. As much as I miss it the game is pretty much dead.

>>49073572
>>49073594
How now brown cow? How is it dead?

>>49073616
>brown cow
What?

Dead, based on what? A bunch of faggots bitching on forums how much they hate mrk3, while the rest are busy playing? I miss page 5, get good or get lost. Go back to casualhammer noobs.

>>49073838
>A bunch of faggots bitching on forums
There's not even bitching. The threads just die.

OP here. 4chan told me I screwed up the captcha, so I thought it didn't post. I was gonna do this when I got off work.

Anywho, here's the game. Post your list pairing, then go through previously posted list pairings and state what which list you would drop into it and why. It'll be good discussion, will be good practice for list selection at tournaments, and might even be fun.

Cygnar - Siege

Major Markus 'Siege' Brisbane - WJ: +28
- Squire - PC: 5
- Stormwall - PC: 39 (Battlegroup Points Used: 28)
- Lightning Pod

Archduke Alain Runewood, Lord of Fharin - PC: 4
Journeyman Warcaster - PC: 4
- Hunter - PC: 11
Gobber Tinker - PC: 2

Tempest Blazers - Leader & 4 Grunts: 18
Storm Lances - Leader & 4 Grunts: 20

---

Cygnar - Nemo3

Artificer General Nemo - WJ: +25
- Storm Chaser Finch
- Reinholdt, Gobber Speculator - PC: 4
- Dynamo - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18)
- Thunderhead - PC: 20 (Battlegroup Points Used: 7)
- Firefly - PC: 8

Captain Arlan Strangewayes - PC: 4
Archduke Alain Runewood, Lord of Fharin - PC: 4
Journeyman Warcaster - PC: 4
- Firefly - PC: 8

Stormblade Infantry - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10
- Stormblade Infantry Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 5
Stormblade Infantry - Leader & 5 Grunts: 10
- Stormblade Infantry Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 5

>>49073590
It's a bit to generic, but :

>With Everyone

Sentinels
Halbardier
Infiltrators
Mage Hunter Strike Force
Invictors

>Issy, Ossy, Ravyn, Elara

Stormfall Archer
Nyss Hunter

>Rhan

Battle mages

>Good with everyon, but usually you take other things

Riflemen
Infiltrators


Jacks

>Banshee, Sphinx, Discordia, Manticore

Everyone


>Phoenix

Rhan
Issy

>Hydra

Kae, Elara (to some extent)

>Daemon

Elara

>>49074016
That sounds like a great idea. I'll have to use the lists I'm currently building/painting though as I'm in the middle of faction hopping.

(Haley 2) Major Victoria Haley [+25]
- Centurion [17]
- Thorn [13]
- Defender [16]
- Dynamo [18]
- Squire [5]
Journeyman Warcaster [4]
- Sentinel [8]
Arcane Tempest Rifleman [4]
Arcane Tempest Rifleman [4]
Gun Mage Captain Adept [5]
Hutchuck, Ogrun Bounty Hunter [6]

(Stryker 1) Commander Coleman Stryker [+30]
- Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker [4]
- Centurion [17]
- Cyclone [13]
- Stormwall [39]
Gun Mage Captain Adept [5]
Journeyman Warcaster [4]
- Sentinel [8]
Tempest Blazers (min) [11]
Captain Arlan Strangewayes [4]

I'd drop Stryker1. Here's my thought process:

1) You can't drop Nemo3. He'd autolose against Haley2. Dynamo negates basically all of your ranged damage. Not being able to TK hurts, but Time Bomb still works and a double alpha strike combined with endless assassination opportunities should make it a pretty easy game.
2) Thus I think you need to drop Siege and honestly I think he'd also be the right choice against Stryker1. I think I'll be able to get rid of the Lances somewhat easily, though the Blazers will be obnoxious as fuck. As all my boxes are conentrated into two high-arm targets I don't think your feat would be that devastating. It'd be an interesting game.


Any advice on those lists is also much appreciated. I know I'm fucked against Wormwood, but so are many. I think I'll be able to take Khador and Ret, somewhat depending on their lists. Legion will be interesting; I'm not sure I can survive Abby2. Cygnar mirror will also depend a lot on the list, but I don't think there's anyting that would 100% fuck me over. Mercs I can't really say; Kingmaker is scary, but maybe Haley2 can take it; Bart's armorspam will be a problem. The other factions don't matter.

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Games not dead yet, just everyone who played Cryx MkII is busy trying to put together a Khador or Ret army.

>>49074713
Not me, I'm putting together a Mercenaries army.

>>49074349
any one i should tell him not to touch / both with? - also thanks for the response.

>>49074713
Eh. I'm still playing Cryx for the time being. Bit of an uphill battle, and it's definitely different than it was. Delivery is more of a challenge, but if you get there, you still win. Been having fun with Morty, Skarre2, and Scavs.

>>49074713
The people who played them for the FOTM-value, yes. I think stock in Cryx will rebound a bit after one or two errata cycles and the faction has had some time to figure itself out.

The real question is Skorne.

>>49075083

>Don't touch model

Destor.
Nayl.

Ah Hyperion is good to if he want to buy the Clossal, namely with Ravyn, Issy and Kae mainly.

So, has Elara turned out to be the filthy rapist people were predicting her to be?

>>49074697

Me: >>49074016

You're right in that I would drop siege, but I was surprised that you'd drop Stryker. Between the lists, I was also surprised to hear you say you could handle the lances easily. They'd be my AS target for the first half of the game, harying your forces. 13/20 with 5 boxes and a 13" charge or 16" advance and shoot. Reposition means I get to sit outside your charge ranges until I get to alpha something.
I assume you'd have to run into senario and feat preemptively to stay relevant. I just have to wait out your feat.

I just don't see the cyclone making it's points back in the match, either.

Actually, I feel that the weakness in both your lists is a lack of ranged threats as well as a lack of threat projection. It makes me feel that you'd hate to see jack spam or gun lines. What are your plans for Ossyan, Vyros 2, Khador in general, Amon, Syntherion, or Legion?

>>49073590

Halberdiers! Halberdiers!

Their crazy threat while retaining durability as they stage is a key component of Ret's ability right now.

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>>49075324

...sigh.

>I get it, designing counterpunch factions is HARD
>and you get to that point where you are weeks from release and it just isn't working
>but WTF with just pushing it out, going full orwell when people start noticing you've turned their stuff into a mound of turds, and moving on to something else?

>>49076037
I think in the Siege list the Lances are the easiest element to get rid of. The Blazers are incredibly mobile, but they have to be very defensive with all the shooting jacks. The Stormwall should be able to get rid of two Lances per turn with a little help from the GMCA. Don't forget Stryker1 has Snipe. The Cyclone threats 21" and the Stormwall threats 23". Trading my feat for either the Alpha or 2-3 scenario points sounds like a good deal to me. I'm not saying it would be easy, but it's definitely playable.

>Ossyan
I'll assume Discordia, 1 more Jack, 2x Stormfall, Riflemen and Invictors. I'd drop Stryker. The Cyclone can keep 1-2 units at bay by itself. Using Snipe on him, none of his units can advance/assault into shooting range without getting POW12 to the face. That requires careful placement to make work though. The Blazers can remove silly amounts of Infantry and are probably my other Snipe target in that matchup. Under Feat I should be able to weather his feat and once the lines close, there's not all that much he can do. All in all it's a game that hinges 100% on movement and terrain layout.

>Vyros2
He's played with 2x Sentinels and a bunch of Jacks? That's going to be one tough nut to crack, especially as that is something Stryker1 will also have to do. I guess I'll have to whittle him down while cockblocking him with the Centurion. I'll honestly have to play this mathup to evaluate it.

>Khador
I'm assuming Team Rocket, Behemoth, +2 Jacks and Snipers. Either Irusk2 or Vlad1 combined with something else. It really depends on what that "something else" is. If it's jack spam I'l drop Haley, because I think control is still the best answer Cygnar has against RM skews; especially now that a lot of the stuff we hate is disruptable/can have its Cortex punched out. Otherwise it's Stryker, cause he plays better into Vlad/Irusk, basically the same way he plays into Ossyan. But in all honesty, Khador is a problem for that you can only CONT.

>>49076037
>>49076332
be so prepared for. Even getting a 40% matchup against Khador is already pretty good.

>Amon
He will usually bring ~6 heavies. I'll definitely drop Haley2. If I can get rid of his mechanics the game should actually be pretty easy. I outthreat him, I can freely take systems away from his jacks (up to 9 damage to a column of my choice per turn), I can cripple their Cortices with ease. Either the choir does anti-ranged or anti-magic on the advance. In the first case I can do shenannigans with TK and time bomb while still shooting his jacks with the Riflemen. In the second case I can get 2 rounds of shooting out of the Defender and 1 out of Dynamo while still getting the double alpha, though this might be risky scenario-wise depending on who goes first.

>Syntherion
I can't really say. Nobody plays Convergence around here and even in national events they're a rare sight.

>Legion
Depends. Lylyth3 should be doable with Haley2, as long as I can keep her safe. Hellmouths should be easy to deal with via ATGM+Riflemen+TempAccell, assuming the terrain doesn't favor him too much. Abby2 will be a problem. If I can deny Alpha Hunter on turn 2 it should be fine, and I think I should be able to get the Martyrs with the way my list threats. Again, depends a LOT on terrain.

To anyone saying the game is dead, name one miniature wargame on Warmahordes scale which is more popular and isn't made by games workshop.

>>49077013
That's awfully specific. You worded it pretty well to rule out stuff like XWing.

>>49077194
Because X-wing is very niche game that has a huge brand following. I'm looking for something that's popular because it's good and consists of a bunch of dudes ramming into other dudes. No homo.

>>49077574
Then you're out of luck. All good mini games are skirmishes.

>>49077755
>All good mini games are skirmishes
Infinity and... infinity? Malifaux is ugly as sin, unbalanced but quite fun. Guild ball is amazing but only played by like 5 people in an abandoned factory somewhere in bongland. That's it.

>>49077013
Infinity is probably the closest but is usually on a much smaller scale. Still, great game. Warmahordes is in a weird spot scale wise between Warhammer and smaller skirmish games.

That said, Warmahordes is great outside of the stupid Uber competitive meta. Relax, play for fun and wait 6 months for the meta to settle and for the first few erratas to fix the random handful of broken models. Once things settle the game will be much better competitively

>>49074016
Sure, why not.

War Room Army

Trollblood - Ragnor

Theme: No Theme Selected
75 / 75 Army


Bunker - Steamroller Objective

Ragnor Skysplitter, the Runemaster - WB: +30
- Trollkin Runebearer - PC: 4
- Mulg the Ancient - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 19)
- Dire Troll Mauler - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11)
- Troll Axer - PC: 10
- Troll Bouncer - PC: 9

Troll Whelps - 5 Whelps: 4
Lanyssa Ryssyl, Nyss Sorceress - PC: 3
Fell Caller Hero - PC: 5

Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes - Leader & 5 Grunts: 9
- Stone Scribe Elder - PC: 3
Northkin Fire Eaters - Leader, Trollkin Grunt, and Pyg Grunt: 7
Northkin Fire Eaters - Leader, Trollkin Grunt, and Pyg Grunt: 7
Trollkin Warders - Leader & 2 Grunts: 10

War Room Army

Trollblood - World Ender v2

Theme: No Theme Selected
75 / 75 Army


Madrak Ironhide, World Ender - WB: +28
- Trollkin Runebearer - PC: 4
- Troll Axer - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10)
- Troll Bouncer - PC: 9 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9)
- Rök - PC: 21 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9)

Fell Caller Hero - PC: 5
Horthol, Long Rider Hero - PC: 8
Lanyssa Ryssyl, Nyss Sorceress - PC: 3

Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes - Leader & 3 Grunts: 6
- Stone Scribe Elder - PC: 3
Northkin Fire Eaters - Leader, Trollkin Grunt, and Pyg Grunt: 7
Northkin Fire Eaters - Leader, Trollkin Grunt, and Pyg Grunt: 7
Trollkin Long Riders - Leader & 4 Grunts: 20

---

Specifically against those Cygnar lists I'd probably go with Ragnor. Almost impossible to kill at range, takes punches and punches back super hard. Should be a pretty good game

>>49078113
>That's it.
That's not even close to "it". There are dozens of 30mm-ish scale miniatures games out there right now with fantasy/sci-fi themes. Besides the big guys from GW and PP, obvious ones like infinity, malifaux, and guildball, you've got Mercs, Warpath & KoW, Wild West Exodus, Dystopian Legions, Wrath of Kings, Kingdom Death, Darklands, and Kensei... that's just things I've played or seen demo'd this past year. Add to that dozens of dead-but-still serviceable games like Dust, Confrontation, Hell Dorado and the like, plus a thriving fanmade/indy rules market, and you'll realize we're really spoiled for choice. And that's not digging into other scales, even closely related ones like 15mm.

Most of the above are/were not very successful, but the point is there is plenty of competition out there for the likes of WMH.

> All good mini games are skirmishes
This claim is just ridiculous. Maybe you're trying to say that the 30mm scale works best for skirmishes? Larger scale games may not have as big a following, but they're certainly doing OK. The success of things like Dropzone Commander and Dystopian Wars is testament to that.

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hey /wmh/ im just getting back into the game after a long hiatus towards the end of mark. 2 now that I have a place to play again.

my question is this, I play cryx and im only just now realizing the full extent of the shafting, what are some good models to get to flesh out and add some variety to my game. iv got 1 unit of Mechanithralls, 1 Necrosurgeon & Stitch Thralls, 2 death rippers, 1 defiler, DJ, 1 unit of blood witches, a slayer, aiakos and a war witch siren, nightmare, denny 1 and 2, venethrax, Asphyxious 2, a Skarlock Thrall, 1 unit of Bile Thralls,1 unit of Cephalyx Overlords, a night wretch and a raider captain.

for warcasters I was thinking of grabing either denny 3,scavourus, or skarre 1 and/or 2.

for units I was thinking of grabing si\ome raiders, blackbane, some of the attachments (hag, seawitch maybe a brute or two for the thralls) im trying to stay way from the banes right now.

as for the jacks id like to either grab one of the gun platform crabjacks and maybe something with a bit more punch like a corrupter or maybe a reaper, maybe some of the winged bonejacks or the stalker so I can stick it with aiokos.

any thoughts?

Any idea why the Old Witch is considered sub-par now? I think she looks great with her bonus light jack, spelllist, battlegroup apparation and decent control feat. She makes any jack better with threat extension and has spells to support infantry, along with other great abilities. So why the "Meh" stamp?

>>49076009
Eh, the Destors are good in the Vyros2 Horse Mountain list, but a) that list is pretty much the only one they're in, and b) it's pretty expensive money-wise, especially with 2 units of 'em. I've also seen Nayl in those lists, too, but I don't know how useful he ends up being.

>>49079748
She's been considered subpar since mki ended.

She's very vulnerable to being killed. Gorman is no longer a easy prowl bot for her, the support that she wants got expensive. It's also in part with Zerkova 1 getting massively buffed.

Gunlines in general are also stronger so people just aim and shoot through the feat. The steamroller scenarios in general having easier to contest zones also doesn't help her since by the time she pops it, people will be standing in the zone anyway.

I fucking miss destruction.

There's not a niche for her anymore in competitive pairings. She's my favorite caster, but I understand why no one will play her.

I never see Khador's Assault Commando's in lists or even mentioned, are they really that bad? They look like cool dudes.

>>49078113

When was the last time you played Malifaux?

It's easily one of the most balanced skirmish games out right now.

>>49078450
Siege/Nemo3 here, aren't you a little worried about e-leaps and lightning generator attacks? As a heads up, if you didn't know, e-leaps and their ilk aren't attacks and ignore the stone bearer's self sac. I feel like Nemo could take out most all your infantry with little retaliation unless you feat to save them, which leaves you vulnerable to his shooting the rest of your list.

And the other cygnar player, i think, would drop Haley into that. Haley's feat trades better than Ragnor's, and TK can pull things out of the dig in spell. That, plus the gun mage snipers killing 1.5 warders per round.

It's probably just me, though. I feel like I'm expecting to get shot off the table, and that's the only thing scaring me at the moment. Your list would probably give me way more trouble than I think it would, but I'm not seeing it. It's what I get for fighting Ret too often.

I do see the purpose of the models in the list, though. Fire eaters for infantry clearing, warders and the bouncer to shield guard. Lanyssa and the axer add 4" of charge range, and there isn't much the mauler or mulg can't kill if they reach their target. Ragnor seems to be there for the str buff and delivery.

If I may ask, what's with the very similiar lists? Was it intentional and you feel those are trollblood's tried and true models or are you somewhat new to the faction and were limited by your current collection of models?

>>49078113
5 people?

Playing Guild Ball?

There was a period in this year where every WMH-ite in my area was deathly afraid of the GB people taking over.

They had nearly all the tables all the time and we're often scheduled to play around the same time as the WMH folk were.

It's died down as summer had gone on and WMH has rexivered a bit but the fervor is stronk.

The truth if the matter is there are other games, and alternatives are everywhere. I've never had this easy of a time finding games for other systems and WMH was my first and only system for so long.

It's such a nice relief to not feel all doom when something goes wrong in WMH because I can just play other games and not worry so much about it.

Hell it kept me sane during MKII. Should keep me sane un MKIII

>>49081117
I've been playing Trolls for a long time and right now I feel like these are some of the best models available. I ran this at a recent event and did ok (I lost to ret on like a 35ish% assassination). I ended up running the similar lists since I haven't locked down a Calandra list I really like yet and want to enjoy Madrak before he gets nerfed into the ground.

Anyway, against Cygnar Ragnor is pretty hard to remove. He gets dug in and and is really hard to remove with guns. Even without the feat you have to chew through armor 20+ beasts with armor 21 shield guards behind them.

And yeah, electro leaps suck for the stone, it's just something you have to play around as Trolls. The only real option I have is to spread out and place very specifically. You can mitigate some leaps by putting the grunts other random models near your likely initial targets. I know it's not a great answer but 'git gud' is the best thing to mitigate losses to Cygnar lighting shenanigans.

Not saying I'll win every time, but I think it'll be a good game and Ragnor is rough match up for Cygnar.

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>>49081117
As a troll player I enjoy dropping Madrak into most if not all cygnar lists as of recent. The only list I've been iffy against is Striker as he out threats and Lancers kill whatever they touch so there's that. Kara and Siege i've found detest the amount of relevant models you put on the table with Madrak and Haley dislikes an unkillable caster that undoes TK with a warpath.

>>49076009
*Destor Thane

FTFY. Destors are worlds better than the thane.

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Trying to get my Legion fix on. I was playing around in Conflict Chamber and it looks like if I get the Legion All in One box to go with the Battle group I just bought, make the second Neraph a Seraph and make the Heavy Beast a Carnivean I can have enough models to build a good number of lists for a long time. If I go this route, what else should I pick up?

[Spoiler] I really want to play Vayl1 [/spoiler]

What's the most durable faction other than Khador? I feel like putting something beefy together without being scorned for playing the same stuff everybody and their mother plays.

>>49083231
I really wish someone near me played Trollbloods. I have precious little experience with them.

Did you mean Lancers, the 'jack, or Lances, short for Stormlances? I never thought of Lancers as super potent melee threats, even with Positive Charge.

Isn't TK mostly used offensively to pull enemies into threat ranges or to clear charge lanes? Rarely did I use it to turn something around to deny a charge. Also, doesn't TKing Madrak still work for that purpose? Warpath specificies warbeasts getting the free 3" advance.

Bonus Question: if they do nerf Madrak 2, how do you think they'll do it? Reduce Grim Salvation's range? Put a per turn limit on Rathrok's Awakening? Change his feat?

>>49085065
Trolls can get pretty beefy with Doomy3 and Ragnor etc.

>>49080676
They are only good against lists where their immunities are relevant.

Strakhov makes good use of them because he can give them stealth, which combined with their immunities and armor can make them very difficult to remove.

Outside of Strakhov, they're a decent choice as a sideboard option for competitive pairings because they can be very good in the right situation (and very bad in every other situation).

They're probably better as a min unit with WAs than as a full unit.

75pts list critique time

Borka
Rok
Mauler
Stone+CA
Champs+CA
Fennblades+CA
Chronicler
Champ hero
Fennblade kithkar

>>49078775
Raiders with UA should be your first pickup. Also probably the Withershadow combo as they have basically replaced the skarlock for the most part. Bane warriors are decent if your caster can deliver them.
Jacks wise the Stalker is great and definitely worth getting, also look into Barathrum and Wrongeye for heavies that don't get shot to death.
Solo's wise you may want to look into the machine wraith now that there are jacks everywhere.
Casters wise conventional says to put Gaspy 2 and Denny 2 on a high shelf and leave them till they get errata. Skarre (particularly eSkarre) goes best with a Kraken (or two). Ihave played the most games of Mk3 with Shade 1 somehow and he's been doing work. Scavvy looks strong and is next on my list to get probably with Croes for fun with TK. Gaspy 1 and 3 have been ok so far but I've not had many games with them.

>>49076497
As far as Convergence goes, I think you're more likely to see either Mother or Father anyways, though Syntherion drops into damn near everything still.

Looking at your lists though, I honestly feel comfortable dropping either of them into you.

You don't have the cracking you need against almost any Lucant list, especially Haley. He's just going to brick up and walk towards you, and there's not a whole lot you can do to stop him. If he wins the roll and goes second to ensure you can't score early, I don't know if there's anything you can do barring hope for dice spikes.

Stryker1 is the thing where it's basically a mirror match, except Lucant has a better spell list. Practically everything in a Lucant list is steady or doesn't care about being knocked down, we have roughly the same feats, and Lucant has mass upkeep removal for AS.

As far as Mother goes, her ranged threat is simply too real. She's going to dominate your jacks so she can kill them or move them out of the way so she can kill your caster. Her ranged threat is pretty insane as well, which is a problem for you. Against Stryker1, I likely either just Backlash your Stormwall and force you to engage or die, or just trade up a heavy and then force you to come to me. Backlash also removes that Journeyman super quickly unless you straight up keep that Sentinel from coming up the field.

>>49080676
>>49085429
They're a lot better at their intended role, which is killing infantry, and they can kind of actually threat against heavier stuff now instead of being pillowfisted as fuck.

Their problem is just that infantry isn't getting played.

If the Rifle Corp weren't so damn amazing, I think they'd see play with Irusk2.

>>49085244
So only trolls and khador are the hard stuff?

>>49086066
Skorne lost a bunch of its hard via the Krea nerf and lack of theme forces. You can brick up with beasts and agonizers with the right lock though (namely Morghoul1, Xekaar)

>>49085065
Convergence likely comes in as the hardest faction in the game still, even if Mk3 took away some of the nastiest parts of it.

>>49080943

I disregarded his opinion when he said the game was ugly. The models are the reason why most of the people I know who play got into it. Hell it's why I got into it.

I'm guessing he's still stuck in 1e with the metal sculpts (which ranged from decent to yeah pretty fugly)

There is always like 2 people who say it's dead but I can walk into my LGS and there is at least 15 people playing WM/H. Mark3 is my lord and saviour.

>>49086322
There's just nothing to talk about right now. New casters were boring, and people are watching and waiting to see when and if the balance errata will drop.

>>49084292

Legion scrub, take my advice with a grain of salt

>Angelius because fuck your armor
>Typhon because fuck your everything
>2x Deathstalker because snap fire and snipe
>Forsaken because it's a super shepherd in a pinch, a punchy solo more often than not, and a nuclear bomb if your opponent ignores it
>Shepherd because shepherd
>2x Hellmouth because they're outstanding utility units

I've heard proteus is good stuff, and I say buy a throne because nobody is ever fielding them and they're such delightfully gross looking models.

>>49075324
If you discount the few things that most people agree are balls-out broken (on the assumption they'll be errata'd into the dirt within the next two errata cycles) Cryx is basically fine. Almost their entire caster stable is legit playable and they've got a strong selection of warjacks, even if they're mostly limited to lights and character heavies outside of the Inflictor. Like 75% of their infantry and solos are irredeemable trash, but whatever, everyone already owned a unit of Satyxis Raiders anyway and that's all you need.

Now Skorne, they're just fucked.

>>49085435
I want to build this list but I’m missing a few pieces and I’m unsure about its quality. I have the impression that I’m not running enough models. It would be paired with Gunny’s gunline.

>>49085211
TK is used in an offensive manner but with where you can position Madrak its really tough to get at him. Everything is a medium base or larger, I park mine around a platoon of warders and near enough to the stone to benefit from protective aura as well.

And yes I mean the cavalry along with Striker3 however Striker 3 is few and far between.
As for Madrak's nerfing i'm not honestly sure, Rathrok only cares about living models dying to him currently so no extra fury for killing the very little undead running around and warjacks. And berserk is alright.

>>49086909
Oh and the usual list I run with Madrak is as follows.
Trollblood - Madrak2 pair
Theme: No Theme Selected
75 / 75 Army
Bunker - Steamroller Objective
Madrak Ironhide, World Ender - WB: +28
- Dire Troll Mauler - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 15)
- Dire Troll Mauler - PC: 15 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13)
Fell Caller Hero - PC: 5
Fell Caller Hero - PC: 5
Fennblade Kithkar - PC: 4
Trollkin Fennblades - Leader & 9 Grunts: 15
- Trollkin Fennblade Officer & Drummer - Officer & Drummer: 5
Trollkin Warders - Leader & 2 Grunts: 10
Trollkin Long Riders - Leader & 4 Grunts: 20
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes - Leader & 3 Grunts: 6
- Stone Scribe Elder - PC: 3

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>>49085804
yeah I was thinking of grabbing the raiders and UA first I have a squad of the crappy mk.1 raiders with no horns but I don't like to use the models iv never been a fan of the banes especially now that their delivery option have gotten shot to shit, i may pick them up once they get balanced a bit more. I figured the WSC would be either first or second after that as they now completely outclass the sckarlock as you and other have said.

as for the jacks I was looking for a light sneaky jack and a heavy jack to do some work as I always feel as if I don't have enough firepower. I feel as if the birdjacks have the potential to do some real work assuming their not shot to shit.

I was thinking about grabbing a machine wraith or two especially if I grab the wraith engine somewhere down the line, I like the fact that its fully incorporeal now gives it a bit more survivability IMHO, a pistol wraith would be nice as well for some shooting as well as solo hunting shenagins.

as for the casters I thought about grabbing one of the shades probably not 1 right away because of the feat but im interested to see how the others are doing, iv always meant to grab skarre but never got around to it, and while I would love to grab dragonegrea I feel as if im not ready for her in terms of painting and transportation wise to say nothing of how shess plays. all my games thus far have been with venethrax so in addation to getting used to the new rules im still trying to wrap my head around him even if he seems rather straight forward.

>>49087070
Don't bother with the Wraith Engine, if it was four points cheaper it might be worth discussing, but as-is it's costed like an expensive character heavy and absolutely doesn't do that sort of work.

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>>49087128
really, damn I thought it might be actually useable this time, not necessarily optimal but at the very least a viable option that could excel under the right caster.

besides the point reduction I wonder what else it would need to be really useable

>>49087214
The wraith engine is not the end of the world, it's basically a weak cryx heavy that pays the incorporeal tax.

It can be an absolute bitch in scenario. Most magic weapons are low pow so if you don't attack with it you can force your opponent to throw a ton of resources at it to make it go away. It also spawns instantly activating machine wraiths, which is not the best thing in the world, means that you can send little incorporeal balls of warjack doom all over the board.

>>49086134

That's a false equivalence, though. Melee damage is shit.

Well, it isn't comparable. Melee contacts are serious commitments, and melee damage isn't all that efficient. It's going where it's going, overruns and underruns are common.

Ranged damage is utterly efficient, or near enough. Every bit of it is allocated to its best effect, as needed.

Agonizer support isn't remotely the same thing as krea support, when it comes to list durability. To the point that it doesn't really deserve mentioning in the same context.

>>49086322

We went from 10 to 15 regulars to 3 or 4 from the edition change.

Results may vary.

>>49087862
Wasn't meaning it to be in the same context - more just that agonizers and heavy spam can be considered a brick or hard in a sense.

>>49088698
A lot less shitposting though.

>>49073572
It's certainly not doing very hot right now, as a lot of old players are pissed about the edition change turning everything on its head, and old player base taking a hit makes it a little harder for hard-hit groups to get new players in.

Continuing shortages at stores for battleboxes probably doesn't help get new players into the game with a really easy and cheap entry point to get the hooks in either.

Online discussion won't recover until about half a year after the shift. At the moment, a lot of what I've seen is slanted towards the negatives of the new edition, and being angry is both tiring and gets old pretty quickly, so discussion tends to peter out fast.

That said, I think it will pick up again once things cool down a bit. Although I'm not sure if it will return to its highpoint pre-mk3, but will instead be quite popular, but not go back to being the "other" big game out there compared to 40k.

Hey, still new with this game. What's currently showing promise?

And how is Menoth at the moment? It's my first team, I'm not sure how or what I should be looking for.

So far, here's what I've got.
(cont...)

>>49090789
War Room Army

Protectorate of Menoth - 75 Kreoss1

Theme: No Theme Selected
75 / 75 Army


High Exemplar Kreoss - WJ: +29
- Revenger - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 10)
- Repenter - PC: 8 (Battlegroup Points Used: 8)
- Reckoner - PC: 16 (Battlegroup Points Used: 11)
- Crusader - PC: 10

Exemplar Bastion Seneschal - PC: 6
- Vigilant - PC: 9
Vassal of Menoth - PC: 3
The Covenant of Menoth - PC: 4
Vassal of Menoth - PC: 3
Paladin of the Order of the Wall - PC: 4
Paladin of the Order of the Wall - PC: 4

Choir of Menoth - Leader & 5 Grunts: 6
Exemplar Bastions - Leader & 2 Grunts: 10
Holy Zealots - Leader & 5 Grunts: 8
- Monolith Bearer - PC: 3

A couple notes:
- I'm looking to replace the Crusader, hopefully with a Vanquisher in the future.
- I want the Zealots to stay if at all possible. I have a sort of hard-on for blowing shit up.
-Kreoss1 is ok, but I want something with more denial. Amon sounds neat, I've been looking at Vindictus for his Zealot synergy (again, hard-on.)
- Probably going to replace the Bastions/Senshal with Temple Flameguard/Pyrrus/Gatekeeper. Still want a Marshal for the Vigilant (driftback is a bitch).

>>49089396
>A lot less posting though.
FTFY

>>49090508
[Citation needed]

The idea that people are angry about changes is stupid. Sure there are some angry people but nerds HATE change. You should have been following forums during the releases of 8th Ed WHFB books. Literally every book had people shelving their armies and quitting the game. The Daemon book especially.

If you use the internet to gauge reactions to changes in a nerd game its ALWAYS going to be negative. No one goes onto forums to talk about how the TV they just bought works fine and they're enjoying watching GoT on it.

>>49091687
>nerds HATE change
Oh what a nice and utterly useless blanket statement. Maybe some of the change was actually legitimately bad? Maybe that's why some people are agitated by it?

>If you use the internet to gauge reactions to changes in a nerd game its ALWAYS going to be negative.
That is however true in most cases.

So I'm completely giving up on Skorne infantry. Last game against Trolls my opponent just casually SP6'd an entire unit of Nihilators into ribbons. Nihilators are bad, Keltarii don't do enough, Swordsmen are just worse Nihilators, Karax exist to die, Incindiarii are unplayable, Venators are pretty average with Dakaar not because out yet.

Fuck infantry man I'm just gonna bring another fucking Cannoneer. Or Orin Midwinter and some Master Tormentors.

>>49092033
>SP6'd an entire unit of Nihilators into ribbons
In other news, water found to be wet.

Cetrati still the bee's knee's, expensive and not as durable sure, but my opponent knows to steer clear of them.

>>49092033
Karax and Reivers are Skorne-good. Ferox, Bloodrunners and Cetrati can be Skorne-good in some cases. I expect them to be nerfed in the next errata. They are really taking table space away from other factions.

>>49092259
Cetrati are the only infantry I'm considering using, and that's with Xerxis1 because Defender's Ward and an Agonizer makes for pseudo 24ARM nigger, then a Willbreaker gives them Tough on top of their Steady and Sacred Ward. It's a very expensive brick but it's one hell of a brick.

>>49092282
>Karax
>Reivers
Yeah but they're nothing special
>Bloodrunners
>Cetrati
Again nothing really special unless you're bricking it up. I'd rather just bring a Master Tormentor if I wanted Bloodrunners. She doesn't really tie guys up, but she'll kill them. If she's anywhere near a forest she's a complete terror. You hide over 3" inside, then Apparition forward and charge out, then Sprint back into the forest. Even better with Xerxis1 since he has the TyCom buff of +2" to a full advance, which Sprint is.
>Ferox
LOL

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What would you guys purchase next after a circle battlebox ? I was thinking another two-headed dog to meat shield and a ranged unit.

>>49086429
>and they've got a strong selection of warjacks, even if they're mostly limited to lights and character heavies outside of the Inflictor. Like 75% of their infantry and solos are irredeemable trash, but whatever, everyone already owned a unit of Satyxis Raiders anyway and that's all you need.

>You can play whatever you like so long as it's a Deathripper, Stalker, character Heavy, Inflictor, or Satyxis Raiders.

This is not what I would consider fine. The army is playable, just, but that sort of awful internal balancing is not fine by any means whatsoever.

Though I'll agree Skorne have it even worse.

>>49092465
2 Sentry Stones. They're ridiculous. I don't play Circle myself, I'm just sick of that shit.

>>49086429
I don't think the Cryx infantry that gets a bad rap is as far from decent as people seem to think. A little cheaper or another point in speed, mat or def would usually be enough to make me interested.

Then there's shit like the Revenant Cannon and ahahaha what the fuck there's now way anyone playtested this on a table ever.

>>49092512
Those nigga will be getting a nerf come December. Honestly, I wouldn't be buying two of anything now unless they start shit because you don't know if PP are going to make them shitty and useless in a few months.

>>49092465
Wormwood, 2 Sentry Stones and a pack of sleeping pills.

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>>49092512
Ha. I'd rather not piss all my opponents off by dropping all the OP shit.
I was going to stick with the Box Caster for a while, maybe try out Baldur with the rocks down the line a bit.
You wouldn't recommend any of the other range options ?

>>49092576
I think Reeves with all the UAs are supposed to be rediculous now. Something about multiple shots ignoring LoS and Anatomical Precision or some shit I dunno I haven't paid any attention to Circle since Mk3

>>49092610
>Anatomical Precision
The new caster can give them Superanatomical Superprecision. That's what turns them up to eleven.

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>>49092610
I do like the look of those. is it fine to buy the box of six or am I going to need the full 10 ?

>>49092701
People tend not to run minimum units of combat units.

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>>49092765
Goodbye budget.
Thanks dude.

>>49092876
If it makes you feel any better, buying a complete unit box is cheaper in the long run then it would be to buy a box of 6 and then buy two more pairs to complete the unit later.

Why are trollblood models so ridiculously overpriced? At 75 points I feel like I'm fielding half the models everyone else does but they are nowhere near being twice as strong.

>>49093287
Medium bases and Tough tax.

You get to jam infantry into warjacks better than any other faction and take a about third more effort to kill.

>>49092888
Also, finding those extra four dudes is getting pretty difficult.

>>49093287
Gotta pay for deadly ranged infantry and light beasts

>>49093287
See you made a mistake there- You tried playing a Hordes faction in a Warmachine game.

>>49093395
No they don't. Without the support our models are worse than other factions' models without their support, but are still more expensive, and out support models are even sillier costed on top of that. Also tough is very widespread across all factions now. Khador has almost as much tough models as trolls.

>>49078113
Lol? Malifaux has probably one of the best detailed and designed minis. God tier tied with Infinity.
Compare with warmahordes - just compare assault commandos or sunburst crew.

Rate my minion list

Minion Army - 75 / 75 points

Lord Carver, BMMD, Esq. III [+28]
- War Hog [15]
- Road Hog [16]
- Targ [4]
Farrow Brigands (max) [15]
Farrow Commandos (max) [15]
Meat Thresher [19]
Rorsh [15]
- Brine0]
Maximus [4]

I'm just starting with minions, waiting for the theme lists to drop before I'll get some gators. Will it do as an all comers list in a competitive environment?

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>>49093573
>god tier quality

>>49093624
>Double Zipper Clockwork Orange
>Man on Wooden Horse
>Beethoven from da Hood
>Indiana Jones remake with Hugh Jackman
>Discount Johnny Depp
>Tommy Gun Sultan

dunno man this Hollywood Protagonist Rejects faction looks pretty sweet.

>>49087070
God damn, I hope that one (un)lucky trencher asked for a buttjob after the ghost blowjob, because that ass has orbit.

>>49078113

I've played Warmachine since Mark 1 son. Malifaux is a superior game right now and I love me some Warmahordes. Malifaux has superior models so I'm not sure what you're on about there. Open a box set of plastic Malifaux then compare that to say...CoC box sets. It's a joke.

You can argue rules in terms of balance but both systems are in the conversation.

You can't argue rules in terms of 'this is unique'. Malifaux wins this hands down, especially since Mark 3 watered most shit down (Let's toss tough around every where but increase the # of things that ignore it). That is a classic sign of lack of innovation and no design space.

Mostly because they have kids running PP. Look at their presentations and how they rolled out their IP in electronic format (and their new edition).

Matt Wilson is very good at creating worlds. Not very good at retaining top tier talent (or putting top tier talent in charge of business decisions). If Will S. were at any serious company after the failures in launches they've had, he would have been demoted/replaced.

And I still love me some Warmarhodes...but in serious moderation now.

>>49090508
>Continuing shortages at stores for battleboxes probably doesn't help get new players into the game with a really easy and cheap entry point to get the hooks in either.

There's a lot of Skorne boxes to be had, still! Granted, a Skorne player that will recommend Skorne to a newb is a rare creature, hardly seen even on the internets.

>I actually advised against it
>I am become That Guy (tm)
>Didn't know I was until the moment came
>But then I thought about it, and I really do believe that my faction is Hard Mode and if you don't know exactly what you're doing (and more importantly, exactly what the other guy is doing), you are going to get wrek'd, discouraged, and I'd never see the newb again after a few weeks
>but if he took up Ret or Cygnar, I'd get some good games out of it in a while

Why DO you guys hate change so much? It's more prevalent than here, but we'll focus on here.

If your army gets scrambled, then now you get to learn new ways to play, and get a fresh experience. It seems like some of you guys want things to stay the same way forever so you never have to learn anything new ever again. It's either that or you're just sour that it takes a bit more effort to win again.

If I didn't hate their aesthetics and fluff is play skorne all day erry day and still have fun. Had a ton of fun with Khador kossites. Now I'm playing legion having fun with shredders.

I guess for some, winning is the only form of enjoyment there is, and any speedbumps along the way are just hassles.

>>49094892
I love learning. I don't like learning that all the models I painted are shit now.

I like interesting matchups that require me to think outside the box. I don't like running all my shit up the table while the other guy throws some dice and my shit disappears. Might aswell play 40k.

I like losing because my opponent is better than me. I fucking hate losing because his faction is better than mine.

Sadly, so far Mk3 has had more of the latter category for me. It's still amazingly fun when you happen upon a somewhat balanced matchup, but those have sadly been the minority.

>>49094892

It's not change anon. I know that's assumed because one guy that is good at the game thinks people are just bitching about change...but that doesn't mean that one guy is right.

Also, in management there is a phenomenon where people say "Just wait and see if they're still bitching in 3 months". Of course it's not phrased that way but basically that's what it is.

Now in 3 months, people stop bitching. That could be that yes, people are adjusted to the change now and it wasn't that bad. It's also equally likely that people have essentially given up and are resigned to eat the dog food. This happens in particular to people who play games that require hours and hours of practice to get good...as if they abandon the game now, they feel they've slightly wasted their time over the last several years. Warmarhodes (and most online RPG games like Everquest was) are good examples of this.

Overall, the design philosophy of Warmarhodes in Mark 3 has been to sandpaper down factions until they're similar/equal. Naturally, the fear from doing so is that you lose flavor of factions..and that's what's happened.

>>49094892
I don't hate change. Change is often necessary and going through the learning process again can be a lot of fun. It isn't automatically a bd thing, but it isn't good either. What I hate is change which radically alters the themes or playstyle of an army, or creates gross internal or external balance issues for a faction.

Look at Cryx - change there was necessary, they were obviously too powerful. But now things have swung too far in the other direction and they're one of the weakest factions in the game. And thematically, they've gone from a swarmy undead infantry faction, which made sense and resonated well with their fans, to a weird mess of living infantry and (mostly crap) Warjacks.

Cryx needed to change, but the changes it received only made things worse. They're just worse in the opposite direction now.

>>49095169

That makes sense, and from hearing what people are saying about Khador, it's sort of the same. Hard up for cortexes in the fluff, but now a bunch of lists seem jack spammy.

>>49094892
>I want cryx and skorne players to feed me salt

Fixed that for you.
You need to remember that this is a hobby full of autistic man-children who hate to lose and like everything to stay the same.

I'm not saying EVERYONE is an autistic man-child, just that the most vocal complainers are. Especially the ones on the official forum. Good god.

>>49095022
>Sadly, so far Mk3 has had more of the latter category for me.

This is how MKII was for everyone that didn't play one of three power factions.

Like it or not, MKIII is better balanced than II. The only faction completely left in the dust this time is Skorne, which PP definitely fucked up with.

>>49094892

Disillusion yourself.

The problem to be dwelt on is this: in about two months, it is going to dawn on this guy that he is losing games constantly, and a number of them are to people that aren't better than him in any significant way. In about a year, he'll have achieved parity (he'll be playing a counter-punch faction- his plan needs to accommodate the enemy plan. He'll be playing a "balanced" counter-punch faction, nothing he'll have is "OP" enough to ignore the enemy plan- the weight on the scales there is Skorne losing the Krea). The judgement call to make is this- will this specific person still be playing this game in a year, given that?

If not, tell them that Skorne isn't something they should be playing. There isn't any ambiguity here, any chipper kick-against-the-pricks attitude you bring to the situation doesn't signify, it depends on your read of the newb. And if they don't have that peculiar brand of doggedness overwhelming other factors, any sense of accomplishment is going to be overwhelmed by months on end of "how is this in any way fucking fair?", and they're gone.

>>49095219
>Like it or not, MKIII is better balanced than II

1. You have no idea if that's true or not. Mark 3 is still a virgin in competition and if we were forced to make snap judgments on balance (Mark 2 vs Mark 3)--we would actually conclude that Mark 2 was better balanced because power casters were not solidified so quickly.

Again though, I don't subscribe to that. It's too soon to have any idea--so I think any claim that Mark 2 is better/worse balanced than Mark 3 is premature.

That being said, we CAN conclude that Mark 3 has less flavor than Mark 2. This was done by design (and is also PP being a victim of their own aggressive release schedule). Factions are very 'samey' at this point and pretty watered down. Done by design? To be sure. Is it fun? Nope, not really.

I mean we can play checkers all day and talk about how grandly balanced the game is but who gives a fuck right?

>>49095219
>This is how MKII was for everyone that didn't play one of three power factions.
Bull. Shit. Mk2 Skorne was okay, though not great. And I never even played Fist.

>>49093287
Because most Troll infantry is crap right now. There's a short list of good stuff in the faction and it works like this:

>Good shit
Fire Eaters
Warders
Krielstone

OK Stuff
Champions
Fennblades
Long Riders

>Pretty Much Everything else

>>49095484
How much of their infantry got played competitively?

>>49095574
More than now, that's for sure.

>>49095574

Single-wound? Nihilators, because if one or two of them were still a live they were still worth their points. One or two of them being still alive isn't as firm a proposition these days.

Immortals with the Zaals. That's kind of a mess; they don't run the table as well as they used to- think hammerdwarfs that only ever roll "2" on their weaponmaster die, and start out on the deployment line (As hammerdwarfs do too, for that matter).

>>49095624
Really? You've swapped in Karax, but lost all your medium base stuff.

>>49095672
Yes, that is what I'm saying.

>>49073978
Might be the typical rule of because people enjoy it, there's nothing to shitpost about, so the discussion dies.

>>49092542
May as well never buy anything then. I've been playing since mk1, it's kind of rare for them to out and nerf stuff cause outcry. It took them 4 years to touch denegra and ehaley after all. I remember mostly casters like eAsphy taking several hits through out mk2 cause his feat was causing trouble. I will say though, if theres a break point, they likely should make newly spawned grunts forfeit something the turn they come in. This applies to the hellmouth too.

Or who knows, might be working as intended and we're just supposed to learn to deal with shit.

>>49095527
I forgot the Dhunian Knot which is OK but not as good as before. Only issue is they lead to support bloat so you want to take them in really specific lists.

>>49093684
>>49093624
Yeah the Turban guy is fucking badass.

>>49095150
>sandpaper down factions until they're similar/equal

>>49095457
>Factions are very 'samey' at this point and pretty watered down

As a Menoth player, yeah. I really feel like the identity of my faction has been bled out.
Also, I feel like with pre-measuring the game really fell flat. The Alpha strike has always been important in Warmahordes, in my opinion to a fault. So if I know you have a 9 inch threat range so I park my gun 9.5 away from you and shoot 10" into you I get the benefits of having a gun line without the risk of getting jammed in the face.

>>49096501
>As a Menoth player, yeah. I really feel like the identity of my faction has been bled out.

What did you think your identity was before? You have been, and pretty much always will be, the burn it with holy fire faction. That hasn't gone away and has only gotten better with mk3

>>49096666
The faction of "No"
I feel like they moved the identity from denial into fire.

>>49096711

Menoth has always been a fire faction. Or did you miss the guys with the giant flaming swords, the jacks with the flamethrowers, the hordes of guys with smaller flamethrowers and flaming spears and the woman who shits burning like it's going out of style?

>>49096711
You still have denial, it's just fair now so other factions can actually play a game.

Regardless, Protectorate is all about the fire and they are currently the best at it

>>49093624
You couldnt have found a worse paint job to prove your point lol. Unbox ugly goblin-like looking NYSS SNOW ELVES and then for example ten thunder brothers from malifaux. Compare. Lament for warmachine have rather worse models.
>>49094892
I love it. But internal balance in and between the factions suck balls. Once again i shall request a number of games khador players field kossite woodsmen. Or assault kommandos.
Those are the units deserving a buff. Where is the buff? Oh wait we dont see it.
You like playing that? Losing games it is, in other words. Well if YOU do have fun even when lose others dont mind losing but because they are worse players rather than because they picked a "wrong" faction.
Oh and about change - SCORNE HAVE NO DESIGN SPACE - PP official. Beat that. I dare you.

>>49096913
I just liked playing with shit jacks and making everyone else play with shit jacks.

You spent X points on a great Jack. I spent Y points on a unit to make your jack shit, and then X-Y points on a shit jack.

It was like nunu jungle. Nobody won.

>>49096386
PP have stated that they're going to address percieved balance issues every 6 months or so and release "booster packs" for changed cards so that you can replace outdated cards without rebuying a whole deck.

Why would they bother doing this if shit wasn't going to get nerfed? I'm not saying don't buy anything, I'm saying that buying multiples you might be using in a few months is worth it, like those people who bought nine units of Doom Reavers or six slag trolls or whatever for EE lists and then took to the forums to bitch and moan because they weren't so good anymore or couldn't fit them all in one list anymore.

>>49097868
Yeah, that's not exactly a ton of fun for anybody

>>49098136
*buying multiples you might not be using

Fuck me.

>>49075132
good on you, my nigger.

>>49086949
>>49086949
I keep seeing longriders with Maddy, whats the deal?

>>49098136
>release "booster packs" for changed cards so that you can replace outdated cards without rebuying a whole deck.

Also available for free download
http://privateerpress.com/support/customers/downloads

>>49098336
Sturdier than Fennblades and they're mounts benefit from Blood Fury

>>49098136
True. They used to do this by having a expansion books shift the meta and balance every 6 months, but now theyre shifting away from that style. If they are, good on them for shifting things up and keeping it tweaked. Kind of reminds me of a well patched video game. On the flip side, if they aren't I don't feel it's too big of an issue because over time the players will further grow and learn to deal with a imbalances.

It depends on youre income. If youre buying more than two of something, you might be in for a surprise (except jacks though). 2 sentry stones isn't the same as two units of Knights Errants with UA. As a circle player, sentry stones are just something really good not overpowering.

>>49098136
>>49099670
>not saying don't buy anything, I'm saying that buying multiples you might be using in a few months is worth it, like those people who bought nine units of Doom Reavers or six slag trolls or whatever for EE lists and then took to the forums to bitch and moan
>It depends on youre income. 2 sentry stones isn't the same as two units of Knights Errants with UA.
I don't think it's about income or predicting nerfs... if they do their job, OP things will get nerfed, and UP things will get buffed. Even if they don't, the power levels of pieces are going to rise and fall over the lifetime of the game.

Knowing that, your goal as a player and consumer should be to balance winning and having fun against the potential of getting burned by buying things you won't use. To that end, I'd recommend only buying models to spam if you intend to fully exploit an OP piece in tournament play in the next sixth months. If you're planning on running the tourney at Gencon or WMW, then by all means - buy those 8 berzerkers or whatever today's hotness is.

For everyone else - one of each unit and (at most) two of each solo is usually plenty. Beasts and jacks are a little more faction specific - Minions will almost always double up on core heavies, for instance - but as a general rule, don't start snagging multiples until you have one each of most of them (and always magnetize).

>>49090508

The shortages of the batlleboxes means that people are obviously buying the shit up, so it can't be dead.

I think the metas are just changing. The healthier metas are just as strong as ever or growing, while those that weren't doing too hot to begin with are just keeling over from the shock of an edition change.

So even if a city gets 100 new players while a dozen smaller towns with 5 players each lose interest, it will look like the game isn't doing well even though it's doing better in terms of how many people are playing.

Anybody building any of the stuff for the crossroads of courage campaign? I'm trying to figure out how I can make a bunch of tents and mining town obstructions.

Also, does anybody have any conversion ideas for holden?

>>49099670
>>49101038

You think people would have learned by now that metas change.

When I first started Warmachine, everyone was crying about high defense Khador Infantry, Retribution snipe-feat-go, Kreoss2 infantry spam, Cryx Banespam, and Lylyth2 feats. Oh and Circle, Trolls, and Cygnar were crying about how weak they were.

Byt the end of Mk2, nobody worried about Khador or Ret, everybody was crying about Saeryn in Legion, and Cygnar, Trolls, and Circle were fielding all the OP meta warping lists.

And then all the little shakeups in between like Menoth gunlines, High Reclaimer clouds, Galleon/Earthbreakers, etc.

Stuff changes over time. What's OP now will not be OP forever and we all get our moment in the sun and chance to complain.

The Internet echo chamber is pretty anti Cryx, but as a non Cryx player and looking at their shit in war room and they've got some good stuff in there. The Skarres, Venethrax and Scaverous all look pretty boss. The Kraken looks quality as do a lot of their jacks, mostly the inflictor and seether. Their infantry is dirt cheap too.

>>49101422
Shit, even Skorne ran the train with Fist of Halaak and Mordikaar pairing.

>>49101559
No, that was just Skorne actually having something that was competitive.

Even in Mk2, Skorne always had the very same issue: They could never ask questions of their opponents, and always had to build their lists to answer them.

In Mk3, they just lost the answers.

>>49101417
Tents, at least, are really easy. On the quick-and-dirty end of the spectrum, you can just print out a tent texture on card, cut out rectangles, and fold them in half to make little triangles. If you want to go more in-depth, something like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT1vFoU6xmk can work.

For Holden, I'd probably look at the Malifaux range - lots of mercy-looking stuff there.

>>49101510
And that's it, also cheap don't mean shit if they aren't actually bargains.

Cryx was a heavily skewed jenga tower of design and when they lost their advantages, their skewed designs fucked everything over.

>>49073193
I've just decided to join this dead game, so far I have the mk2 Cryx starter, Morty and Deathjack. Need to pick an infantry unit and I'm torn between zambo pirates and bane nouns. Mainly for screening and sacrificing in the name of grorious jack combat.

>>49103190
If you're dead set (ha) on using pirates or banes, then a unit of Bane Warriors aka Bane Thralls is probably your best bet. They're the only one available in plastic (so far), and probably the most user friendly as well. Plus, you need to have a minimum unit at least if you want to play Goreshade1.

(cue anons complaining that bane thralls are unplayable trash)
The banes hit like a ton of bricks, but they suffer a bit in full-size games because they can be shot off the table fairly easily. They'll serve you well in smaller games and while you're still learning, though. The "trick" with them is figuring out how to get them to the fight intact - spells like Occultation (grants stealth), certain feats, or screening them with cheaper units like Carrion Thralls are worth taking a look at.

>>49103190
>Mainly for screening and sacrificing in the name of grorious jack combat.

If all you want is a disposable screen, Carrion Thralls are worth a look. They're dirt cheap, super-fast, and Prowl means if the terrain is right they can be tricky to remove completely before they get stuck in. Their actual ability to do damage is pitiful outside of a few niche situations, but if you just want something to cram down the enemy's throat while your 'Jacks close the distance you won't find much better.

>>49103190
I'm not a Cryx fag, but the crows and Mc Thralls are decent chaff to block lanes, engage shooters, etc. Bile thralls have auto hitting sprays.

Banes are cool but they're expensive enough you need a delivery method. Even stealth can be noped by reinholdt, now you're playing 17 points down turn 2 onward.

I think blackbanes and the ogres actually look rude as fuck now, for different reasons. Incorporeal dudes not being able to free strike blows, but 10 incorporeal models in a zone is pretty significant.

>>49103882
>Bile thralls have auto hitting sprays.

Biles are awful. They're slow, easy to kill, and their RAT is so low the only way they can hit anything is through Purge. Previously that was okay, so long as you could get one or two Biles through the enemy fire, a single Purge was deadly enough to make them work bringing. Now they struggle to hit more than a couple of models.

Once again, PP went too far nerfing Cryx. The Excarnate Bile trick needed to die, but there was no need to gut the unit itself.

MK2 Protectorate player popping in to ask if Cygnar Trenchers are viable yet because they're the main thing that attracts me to Cygnar

>>49105322
Viable as shit.

They gained a shitload this edition.

>>49105418
Menoth's blessings unto you. Gonna paint them Protectorate colours and get them to work with Mercs as a Menite sect.

>>49105322
Trencher Infantry are very good. Smoke is more relevant and they have better stats. Most seem to be favoring s min unit with the UA.

Haley 3 and Sloan are using them quite often.

Commandos are playable but less amazing, unless you happen to play against the 3 or 4 things that Anatomical Precision is valuable against.

Finn is a good combat solo that gives both kinds of trenchers just enough accuracy.

Trench Busters are a bit expensive for what they do, having only 5 boxes. If you really try you can find a use for them, but most of the time they just aren't worth it.

The Master Gunner and the artillery are pretty bad outside of a few very niche situations (like using a master gunner to give Triumph with Siege arcing fire).

>>49105322
mk3 for cygnar was this portal to a weird bizarro realm where our best infantry are Trenchers and Devil Dogs.

>>49105563

Take a walk on the Skorne side where there are just never enough points to put in even more Karax than you have already.

I'm going with Skorne for the time being, since I apparently hate myself. With that said, I could use a second gladiator, so I'll probably get the starter for the rulebook, gladiator, and Xekaar.

Xekaar seems fairly simple. I'm thinking weapon master and Witch Mark are trap options (why bother using witch mark if his MAT and FURY are the same value, and get him closer to hit in melee without any defensive tech to keep him alive afterwards?), and that pursuit is what I would consider his most situational spell.

He seems more geared towards feating before the Alpha strike to keep your stuff in good shape, healing your beasts up on your next turn, then putting mortality on the big threat that you want dead.

What sort of army composition works well for him? I assume he'll want self-sufficient units since he gives them nothing. Is he geared towards mostly heavy beasts, light beasts, or a mix of the two?

>>49107368
Heavily beasts. You should be casting Psychsurgery almost every turn, if not every turn. You should be getting off at least one Mortality every turn and Maltreat to pull after. You're also gonna want to look in ways to threat extend Mortality. So Marketh, and Cyclops Shaman or Farrow Bonegrinders.

What's the general consensus on the Mark III starter? Nobody in our club plays the game, but me and a friend of mine would like to try it, and pick up the starter at one point. Also, would the one player battle packs worth it to go with the starter? I'd have doubles of the casters, but some extra jacks could come in handy I reckon.

>>49108254
For playing troll one is shit. For starting a collection all are fine.

>>49108254
Hard to say no to the starter sets, their hella cheap and come with a lot. Rulebook, dice, tokens, fold out map, etc. Donno which armies are the best or worst for value, but overall i'd say their totally worth it.

>>49107368
Xekaar wants lots of beasts. Consider Zaadesh as a Rushbot to help with Rush spam and with fury management. And since Mortality basically gives +2STR/MAT to anything attacking the target, Xekaar is probably our best Minions warlock.

(Xekaar 1) Beast Master Xekaar [+31]
- Titan Cannoneer [17]
- Titan Gladiator [14]
- Bronzeback Titan [18]
- Agonizer [7]
Tyrant Zaadesh [4]
- Titan Gladiator [14]
Gatorman Posse (max) [18]
Paingiver Task Master [3]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]
Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [5]
Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2]

I'd use something like this if I was going to play Xekaar. The Posse getting +4STR and +2MAT on both of their attacks is sort of a big deal. That's MAT8 with PS17x2. Like damn son. The lack of Handlers is because you should be able to do maths at this point in your life, and Xekaar himself has Enrage built in.

(Xekaar 1) Beast Master Xekaar [+31]
- Titan Cannoneer [17]
- Titan Cannoneer [17]
- Titan Gladiator [14]
- Bronzeback Titan [18]
- Agonizer [7]
Tyrant Zaadesh [4]
- Titan Gladiator [14]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2]

This is probably a safer list since you actually have Handlers rather than relying on Bronzeback + maths. The Tormentors and Cannoneers are your infantry killers, the Gladiators and Bronzeback are your sledgehammers. Easy.

>wants to start Warmachine
>no Battlegroups or Starter boxes for sale in UK for months
>saw this today:

PLEASE NOTE: We have been made aware that in order to keep up with demand, our supplier has been putting photocopied versions of the faction guides into these sets, not the full colour guide shown in the item image, as the guides are in lower supply than the other components in the set. As a result, you may not receive the full colour version of the faction guide.

>sighs

thats pretty embarrasing. How long have they been producing this game?

>>49109707
Skorne is still in stock, friend! ;^)

>>49109663
>The lack of Handlers is because you should be able to do maths at this point in your life, and Xekaar himself has Enrage built in.
So you can only ever make useful attacks with one heavy AND are relying on Xekaar using offensive spells and short ranged special actions in the same turn. Seems like a bad idea.

>>49109707
To be fair though, you really don't need the guide, at least after playing your first three games.

>>49109895

true, its more of the principle really. This is a pretty big company isnt it?

also, is that the guide that has the painting tutorial in it? thats going to pretty much suck in black+white!
tbf, again i wouldnt need that personally but again, im thinking 'new player' impressions.

with any luck, PP will put the PDF up for download on the site (if it isnt already)

>>49109961
Yeah PP distribution is notoriously horrible. They're not as large as one would think, but the way they run their business is pretty horrendous even for that.

>>49108560
Besides a Kell Bailoch I got ages ago because it looks cool, the starter would be my first box. Hordes doesn't really interest me (yet), so the Warmachine two-player is the one I'm mostly looking at.

>>49109570
Thanks. The two-player set has Cygnar with 3 jacks, caster, 10 grunts, the one-player has the same but without the grunts.

>>49109885
I'd use the 2nd list for that very reason. Also means you aren't hoping to pass tough rolls to get value out of your Posse, though playing the infantryless game is dangerous.

>>49103882
>Even stealth can be noped by reinholdt, now you're playing 17 points down turn 2 onward.
You may want to take another look at that Reinholdt card - he removes stealth from a single model. Not exactly a hard counter to stealth units, there.

>>49110803
A single model can be used as a target for blasts, chain lightning, ashes to ashes, etc.

>>49105322
>Cygnar Trenchers viable yet?
Big "YES" on that. Trencher infantry are, point for point, one of the best units in the game now. They still do a bit of everything, a little better than before, and they're finally priced right.

>>49105447
I think you're seeing them a lot with Haley3 and Sloan just because you're seeing a lot of those two in general. You can stick a Trencher Infantry unit with anybody now though, they're the default Cygnar unit choice. You can take them in almost any combination. The UA and WA are both strong without being auto-include.

>Finn is a good combat solo
Finn is a RIDICULOUS combat solo. He's a baby eMadrak with AD, pathfinder, stealth and a decent gun. Throw bullet dodger or refuge on this guy and he can table an opposing army almost by himself. Much like Mk2's Eiryss and Gorman, he's a model your opponent absolutely cannot afford to ignore.

>Everything else
Commandos are Cygnar's stealth infantry. Stealth on units is stronger this edition, because most stealth removal is single target. Niche but playable.

Trenchbuster - you're mainly paying for a shield guard. As a bonus, he's got a decent gun (19" threat on ANY gun is worth perking up and paying attention to) and can fight. He's a bit of a finesse piece because of his relative fragility, but he can certainly get work done.

Artillery are certainly better than they were, but I'm not sure it's enough. They still feel like they're too short ranged for how fragile they are.

Mastergunner - He's kindof a cheap way to get an "extra" cannon, if you want that. His niche but probably more interesting use is to do something like give Arcing Fire to a Sniped Hurricane for a 23" downtown assassination.

>>49110834
Sure. And they can also just ignore Reinholdt and blanket them with AOE's. Both lightning and A2A can be bounced off friendly models as well, IIRC.

Not disputing that answers to stealth exist - you just made it sound as if the existence of Reinholdt makes stealth on units irrelevant. That hasn't been my experience - a lot of Mk3 games I've seen had people bending over backwards to deal with stealth units. A couple factions can ignore it (including Ret, amusingly, the former "how do we deal with stealth" faction), but most don't have a good answer anymore.

The single change of taking true sight off of gunmages was a huge buff to stealth infantry across the board.

>>49110963
>they're the default Cygnar unit choice
That might also be Storm Lances. Great in Mk2, crazy in Mk3.

>>49111014
>autistic Reinholdt anon here

Yep I missed that on his card, no wonder I thought he was too good for the points. It still makes stealth delivery an issue for some lists.

>>49111448
Mainly he fucks over single Stealth minis like Nightmare or anything Goreshade1 brings.

I think his Spyglass having infinite range is flavorful, but a bit dumb.

>>49107368
I haven't played Xekaar yet, so I dont actually know what I'm talking about.

I'd recommend Aptimus Marketh to help get mortality out, also maybe even molik for reposition. His 15/14 doesn't want to be anywhere close to bad guys. Also, because he has enrage doesn't mean you don't need handlers. That just frees up the handlers activation order to heal or manage fury. My issue with Xekaar is he seems to want the full support package. Handlers, brute, krea, agonizer, marketh. Gets expensive before you pick up worker models.

When I make lists with khador I feel like I have everything I want and 20 points to play with. When I make lists with Skorne I feel like I'm still missing something I really want to protect my caster, like a krea or a shield guard, but just don't have the points to fit it in. Either that or I build the list and realize I forgot handlers.

>>49111485
They weren't kidding when they made the new attachments. Reinholdt and Madelyn can be pretty ball busting. I tilted an opponent pretty hard with Butcher 3 and Madelyn blowing kisses at folks after he killed their whole battlegroup.

>>49111607
My only gripe with Marketh is that he isn't much more survivable than Xekaar, and is fairly expensive to boot, and I already have a lot of points tied up in support pieces that I want to fit in along with my workhorse beasts.

Although without good spell range, channeling options, or defensive tricks to give him more survivability, I suppose Xekaar really does need someone lile Marketh to play it safer.

For some reason I absolutely love the raw look of cardboard, so I feel inclined to get the cardboard trays with foam to store my minis. Are they really as shit compared to regular plastic cases as people say?

>>49111448
>Yep I missed that on his card, no wonder I thought he was too good for the points. It still makes stealth delivery an issue for some lists.
There's no doubt Reinholdt is good for his points. Pulling stealth off a shadowpack heavy or a key solo can be huge, and some lists really need that. But a lot of factions have other ways to do the same thing... the GMCA in Cygnar, for instance.

>>49111880
Not necessarily. I actually prefer to make custom cases out of cardboard boxes with foam cut to fit. More of a flexibility thing for me. I like to box units and small groups of jacks / solos independently. That way, when I travel, I only have to bring what I need, instead of lugging along the whole collection in an Army Transport Super Plus XL Regiment Big Size Pro (tm).

>>49111880
Pros:
>far cheaper than the fancier materials for bags and cases
>lighter
>less likely to catch the eye of theives if you leave it in open sight in your parked car (tool/gun cases are the worst for this, followed by cloth cases and bags)

Cons:
>if some lummox at the store drops something on your case, you have greater chance of something breaking
>can get soggy in the rain
>snobby fags might look down on you for not sucking one of the big brand name dicks (but tell them to fuck right off, because that's petty shit)

Would morrow like sigmar?

>>49113785
Collectivism and order go pretty well together so I'd say yes.

>>49111873
There's always the cyclops shaman, too. I don't know if bone grinders would be worth it.

Helynna 30

Imperatus 22
Discordia 18
Manticore 14
Griffon 8
Chimera 8
Sylys Wsynylysryr 4

Max Halberdier with UA and Soulless
Stormfall Archers

2 Arcanists
Feasible?

>>49114139
Shaman could be played more forward, but for 3 points less I could take a minimum unit of bone grinders and keep them safe in the back. Even with craft talisman, I still need to move Xekaar and the rest of his army up to actually get work done.

I figure I can get by just fine with min. grinders in the back just as support, since opponents will likely care more about the beasts and Xekaar playing forward. Those 3 points saved might let me upgrade a heavy, or go towards more support. The shaman is a nice mini, but I'm not sure how much work I can expect it to do (though the eye is nice), especially if I want it to stick around to extend my spell ranges.

>>49114552
I'd swap the griffon for an aspis, myself, but that's because I like having a shield guard option to soak a shot for her. The phoenix field also lets it recover some of the damage it may take while keeping her safe.

>>49114652

I want to like the Apsis, but it looks like a combination of not that tough, a wholly reactive measure, and really weak offensively.

Boy, I now see that I wasn't being lied to about Khador being pretty powerful.

>>49117063
Yep. Bend over, close your eyes, and think of #designspace.

>>49117063
What was your experience?

>>49118649
>>49117063

Let me guess, Butcher took down your entire Colossal in a single activation?

>>49119296
No one plays colossals now

>>49077013
Just not into mkiii. 9th age however is picking up a bit of steam in my area and I miss whfb

>>49119414

Why? They were all over the place before? They're not bad now. Are regular Jacks a lot more viable with the whole focus change?

>>49119726
Multiple heavy is a very viable option and popular support options got more expensive or got nerfed. Colossals can be killed by everyone and the force multiplication is no longer a thing. Gargantuans are seeing rise since hordes got so gimped in the beast department.

It's a brave new world

Thread's dying again.

>>49119726
Also greater warjack points means more people are bringing the heavies to deal with colossal effectively.

>>49119726
Thought most ppl didn't use colossals much to began with except for maybe Cignar and merc's. And on the Hordes side, only the Skorne Mammoth was maybe worth using.

>>49122795

I've only gotten into WMH pretty recently, but I remember seeing a lot of Stormwalls and Hyperions about. And the squid one, and there was that one with the big anchor gun. Or the unpainted legs of the same. Fucking tournament players.

>>49121508
What is there really to talk about? It's been a few months, so everything new is pretty much talked to death until erratas hit in the winter. The shift has upended a lot of people, and posters are either liking their newfound strengths, too unimpressed to comment, or are Skorne and already bitched themselves to the point of burnout.

We probably won't see much of a pick-up short of more info on the Scarytown faction, or erratas and theme lists hitting.

>>49122795

I use double Mountain King with Ragnor now. Granted I only play at my local shop, so I don't know how competitive it is, but it's a blast to play and gives some of my opponents fits.

>>49122859
>or are Skorne and already bitched themselves to the point of burnout

Impossible. Every day teaches the Skorne meta even more new facets of how PP holds them in utter disdain and contempt.

>you'd think PP would realize that if they are going to designate somebody to be designed as a "mook" faction, they would also need to make at least some people want to play it

>>49123363
I understand why they have problems making Skorne work, they've picked hands down the hardest strategic style of play for them, both in terms of balance and interaction.

Their insistance to stick to that design is part of their problem, but just balancing Skorne will always, always be incredibly hard. If they ever fuck it up, Skorne will easily be a top tier faction.

>>49123858
>If they ever fuck it up, Skorne will easily be a top tier faction.
Oh no, anything but that. The very thought of it is just too terrible.

>>49124147
Not in a good way. Like, in a "No one wants to ever play against the Skorne player ever." Kind of way.

Counterpunch factions combine denial with attrition in a hybrid tactic, and if they get good, then the faction not only prevents you from ever doing your shit, but it also punishes you for actually trying to just kill their shit.

Like, imagine every game was against non-Colossal Lucant in Mk2, where he specifically stopped every single one of your tactics from ever working. Only worse.

>>49124221

I think if they put things back to "you try to shoot Skorne off the table. Nothing fucking happens.", after a wall of sound as the current malefactors cry rape, it'd just settle down to people just having Skorne drops. Not the end of the world. Or even something that is worth effort trying to keep from happening.

>>49092465
Sentry stones, blood reavers, shifting stones, heavies to taste, lynissa, we+sj, druid overseer

>>49095219
I think its just balanced differently, but its just not cryx, legion and circle. Now its cygnar, ret and circle

Yes or no: Mk3 is significantly better to play than mk2.

>>49125479
There's a lot of things I think it's easy to forget that are better about Mk3.

The change to camping, for example, means that some warcasters aren't simply stupid, and even the squishy casters don't get to sit at ARM20+ the turn they have to put themselves in danger. It was always absurd that the practically zero armor Caine or the Old Man Sevvy could be as tough to damage as a warjack, and the actual heavy casters like Butcher or Lucant could become all but unkillable simply by walking forward and camping.

In addition, a lot of the old anti-warmachine/anti-hordes casters and tech got changed to be more even in their matchups, which helps with caster diversity. Was always really annoying that certain casters simply didn't get to play against half the game, because they were too geared towards a single technique.

Mk3 has a lot of problems, and these problems have been either magnified or blown out of scale by the fact that none of the devs besides Hungerford can fucking hold a conversation. There's plenty of shit to be critical of, but there's a lot of good changes in the game. Shit needs to get fixed, yes, but so long as they actually fix it, then smooth sailing.

A lot of the problems of Mk3's reception has simply been the devs being too autistic about shit. From the leaks on, they've made a shitload of really bad choices in terms of their interaction with their customer base.

>>49123858
>they've picked hands down the hardest strategic style of play for them
How is it the hardest?
two of the most broken units (bane knights and warders) were counterpunch units

>>49125913
Because the point is not for them to be broken.

And I'd argue that Bane Knights weren't counterpunch units at all, they lacked any sort of defensive tech beyond immunity to freestrikes.

Warders were meant to be defensive units, straight up, but ended up being counter punch because they also hit like trucks. Which was again, a real issue.

But even then, the difference between a unit or two in an army and the entire faction being focused n the tactic has some big strategic implications.

>>49104651
I don't really think people appreciate how resource intensive the excarnate bile trick was. Plus only one caster could do it (rip(scaverous could not do it)).
Was it powerful? Yes, and it deserved to be changed I just wish it was still possible to do.

>>49126482
Resource to kill ratio was absolutely absurd on the trick.

>>49126482
well now you have to settle with tk+purge.
Good thing the 8 inch spray is longer than the old purge :^)

>>49126558
Really only against bads/new players. Most of the time you could just threaten it, or if you are playing into it bait it out.

>>49126714
Something about scaverous being good now makes me not want to field him anymore.

>>49126775
The threat of it warped list building into Cryx so heavily just by it existing.

You could not purge an entire game and still benefit immensely from the tactic existing.

Hey, anyone got some decent pics or scans of kommander malakov's cards? Gonna proxy him but my phone's too shit for warroom.

>>49126775
Scaverous was good before, it's just that with mkII Cryx "good" wouldn't get you into the top 5.

>"Scaverous has tk, he's amazing with Croe's poison and backstriking!"
>"Ha ha, why would I ever need Croe's when I have all this amazing undead infantry?"

>>49127446
Use the WHAC link in the OP

>>49125479
Yes.

But then I mainly play Khador so everything is great for me.

>>49125479
Yes.

Jacks are viable and that's all I wanted.
Also seems less broken things at competitive level. In fact I've yet to see one besides Wurmwood and he's debatable.

>>49114552
Why not just take more jacks over halberdiers?

Also lots of jacks here and only 2 Arcanists.

>>49126775
>Something about scaverous being good now makes me not want to field him anymore.
Gotta get over that. The bump to Scavs was just what he needed to make him viable, in addition to fun. He's still got his signature 4,000' sheer rock face of learning curve and built-in analysis paralysis ray... which for me are what make him interesting.

>>49109707
>thats pretty embarrasing. How long have they been producing this game?

A while. What happened is that demand far outstripped their initial supply. People online were crying in droves about quitting the game, but now its bigger than ever and people are picking up new factions.

PP severely underestimated how popular the edition change was going to be, so they didn't overstock on products that they figured were going to end up gathering dust in warehouses and on shelves.

>>49126775
>Something about scaverous being good now makes me not want to field him anymore.

I feel the same way about Zerkova and Karchev. Though no one seems to be playing Zerkova.

>>49129898

I'll be cool to see if it was worth it- the consequence was... EVERYTHING got sold.

That batch shot through with the cavities? PACKED AND SOLD.

The one where the hopper stopped feeding for a few seconds? PACKED AND SOLD.

Some serious "worth of intangibles" questions are going to be answered in a few months.

>>49129898

Well, there's always Skorne.

>>49129938

I can't think of anyone who would rather have perfectly good product sitting unwanted on shelves vs selling out of product and having to hastily scramble to produce substandard product, which still sells like hotcakes.

>>49130060
I can't think of anyone that sells paint putting a fucking black and white photocopied painting guide in a box and sending it out the door, but here we are.

>>49130170
>get Khador starter in the second shipment wave
>"sorry, stuff in is black and white"

Everything was in full colour anyway.

>>49124221
>>49124877

The fools probably thought they DID THAT (or something like that) with the Agonizer's -2 STR/econo-Titans, aka "You can't into melee".

Thing being, YOU WANT them Into Melee. It's how you fight and win. Instead they massively incentivized coming up with a way to circumvent melee piece trading ENTIRELY (since that shit just won't work on the face of it), and guess what- THEY CAN DO THAT EASILY!

Fucking morons. Stop trying to help us. Stop trying to give us new stuff. Just.. stop.

So i have finally decided to make a Circle army. Trolls shall be the next pick. In a year or something.
Kaya2 - viable or not?
Ive got new battlebox, kaya2, rorch@brine and wrongeye@snapjaw. What should i purchase aswell? Sentry stone? Reeves+UA?
Oh and which solos do i want for Menoth? Will probably play every single warcaster.

>>49130680
Wormwood, Sentry Stones and a lobotomy.

>>49130717
I do not like Wormwood.
Oh also whom does Una loves? Razorwings only?

>>49130761
Definitely Scarsfell, possibly Razorwings, not Rotterhorn.

>>49130761
>>49130850
She'll happily run any of them. Scarsfell's probably the best of the bunch now (thanks to its comically high damage output), but they all have a place. Una + Rotties will still clear infantry like a boss, you just don't need that niche filled quite as urgently anymore.

The real question is whether to run Zapdos on Una.

>>49132525
Zapdos? What the hell is that?
And why Scarsfell have comically high damage? 2x11 1x12. Not really that much, or i missed something?

Im going to a "friendly" steamroller tommorow. Can someone advise a decent all comers Rasheth List? I own nearly the whole faction despite hardly playing the game ever.

>>49132525
>The real question is whether to run Zapdos on Una.

I feel like that's going to be more of an Una2 question, what will she do for it, will she still be limited to birds, etc. 42 points for a package that still might need some help feels like a pretty safe pass to me.

>>49132758
The storm raptor garg that's not out yet.

>>49129102
I already know how to play him, he was my troll caster for over a year. Hes just lost his meme magic. I think my favorite caster is lich3, mostly because gaspy is my favorite character and he has a fairly low modle count.

For tournaments is denny3 and scavy tho

Is Skarre Viable or just tits.

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>>49133450
Still viable, but not ball busting upper A tier.
Also still tits

>>49133450
Still great, both are viable

>>49130170

If people are paying 50 bucks for the models and not the very very basic painting guide, then why would you deny them the models?

It's like not selling the newset and hottest selling video game because there's a major typo in the game manual or not distributing your in demand DVDs (that are selling like hot cakes) because one of the previews for an upcoming movie isn't ready yet.

Does anyone have a PDF of Wild Adventure for the RPG?

>>49134417
>1 pressganger point has been added to your account

>>49130761
>I do not like Wormwood
Then why are you playing Circle?

>>49134417
It's a starter set. As in, designed for people who are just starting out. You have to assume that a fair number of people buying them are new to the hobby, so a colour painting guide is a pretty important thing to include. Sure, it's pretty meaningless to jaded veterans like ourselves who just want a new caster and a few cheap 'Jacks, but don't lose sight of what the boxes are intended for.

>>49134417
>If people are paying 50 bucks for the models and not the very very basic painting guide, then why would you deny them the models?

There's three ways you could go about selling a battlegroup box: Sell it MK 3 style and have a little painting guide like the rulebooks have, sell it MK 1 style with no painting guide and have people figure it out on their own, or sell it with a black and white book that says "THIS IS WHAT UNDERBELLY BLUE LOOKS LIKE! THIS IS WHAT NECROTITE GREEN LOOKS LIKE!" and look like you're total fuck ups.

Like, if I buy a multi jack kit, and it has instructions, I'll follow them. If it has no instructions, I'll piece it together myself and think nothing of it.

If I have an instruction sheet that says "Slayer uses Head and Arms A, Reaper uses Head and Arms B, Corrupter uses Head and Arms C", but none of the parts are labelled, I will figure it out myself and also think the people in charge of putting this out are idiots.

>>49135193
The only 3 casters i do not like are Baldur (i do not understand how to play the guy), Morvahna (same) and Wormwood (boohoo i am a tree).
Other casters are cool and the whole dark old druidic magic theme is pretty awesome aswell.

>>49135609
>The whole dark old druidic magic theme is pretty awesome
>Except for the part where they conduct human sacrifices in the woods and feed blood, hearts, and young druids to an ancient aspect of the Devourer Wurm

Is 'jack marshaling ever worth it?

>>49136364
Depends on the jack and the marshal's drives.
Off the top of my head
>sanctifier+marshal
Essentially gets 4 focus and +2 on damage rolls. Unless your opponent chooses not to kill your troops.
>Marshal+redeemer
pow 10 blast damage is situationaly better than pow 8 with 3 boosts.
>Bastion seneschel+vigilant
Sits in the zone and is a unkillable shit, since it will be arm 21 immune to spells until either dies
>trample vulture+Iron lich overseer
the bonejack doesn't need any focus to do its job, and the lich gives it dark shroud and stealth. Seems bretty good.


There are almost certainly some other worthwhile cases I've missed.

Does anyone actually enjoy the minis/aesthetic for this game or is all about the competitive rule set? Genuinely curious if people prefer this to other games from a hobby standpoint

>>49130680
Menoth
Vassal 2
Covenant of Menoth
2 Knights Exemplar Seneschal
Wrack
Pyrrhus, Flameguard Hero
Are you going to run a lot of infantry:
Reclaimer
A lot of warmachines:
2-3 Vassal Mechanik

>>49136717
A whole bunch of commission painting made me hate the aesthetics part a bit, but now that I want to pick them up for myself, I'm more interested in the minis and painting them to the best possible standards. They look good, and have plenty of details plus nice big surfaces to do some nifty shit on them.

>>49136717
I like the models a lot more than 40k stuff, but a lot less than Infinity stuff.

>>49073193
Man 40k really changed with 8th edition, I dont recognize any of this stuff anymore

Ive narrowed the model ranges I like down to Ret and Cryx. Should I just pick up both battleboxes an go?

>>49139671
If you find someone who wants to play Cygnar, you can get that 2-player box, since it'll include everything from the Cryx battebox and a few units tacked on. The set is ~$80, so splitting it down the middle will cost you about the same as the battlebox. For every other faction (other than Cygnar of course), you have no choice but to stick with the battlebox.

>>49136717

From most liked to least...

Malifaux
Infinity
Warhammer Fantasy
Warmachine
40k

Something like that

>>49140859
>Malifaux
I keep on seeing this as one of the best minis to hobby out there but I have never seen good malifaux paintjobs.

I've seen plenty of decent warmahordes shit, metric ton of gw shit, infinity just has it as default, but malifaux, never.

>>49136717
Just the rules for me.
Aside from Cyriss I fucking hate the aesthetics of all the Warmachine factions.
Hordes is a bit better, especially recent Gator releases but they aren't great.

I play Malifaux and Infinity for my aethetic minis (though I probably like the Malifaux rules a bit better, the card duels get a bit tedious at times).

I used to put a bit extra effort into painting my Khador but I caught up on them and bought and painted the whole Ressurectionist faction. When Mk3 came out and stuff got better I just had no motivation to paint Warmachine stuff. Its just so shitty and boring.

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>>49140920
You probably aren't looking hard enough.

Honestly, Malifaux doesn't really have many big flashy models so there's less to work with in terms of paint jobs but they ooze character and atmosphere. I loved painting up even generic zombie dudes that are nothing but glorified tokens.

>>49140920

Absolutely agree with you about that too. Especially on the older models. I used to think pretty much all of the old sculpts were fucking awful, until I actually saw some bare metal models. The detail is there, the studio paint job was just awful. They must have replaced them or made a whole lot of skill progress since then, because their studio jobs are much much better than they were.

However, with that said, a lot of the older ones were very ugly. I really don't think I've seen a bad sculpt since they went to plastic with 2.0. Like >>49141100 said, even the most unimportant of models has character.

Now, assembling them on the other hand...I don't think I've ever found a more difficult line of models to assemble. Thank god they clean up like GW plastics and not that shit PP uses. But yeah, so, so many tiny pieces that you absolutely do not need to lose.

>>49141100
>Malifaux doesn't really have many big flashy models so there's less to work with in terms of paint jobs but they ooze character and atmosphere

With 40k, I've seen very good 5 man tac squad of SM painted well. It's pretty common if you look for it. Malifaux stuff just doesn't get painted and when it does, it's painted like shit.

Aionius is probably the only great paintjob on CMON and the fucker is indeed beautiful without colors.

I'm trying to find inspiration for painting my gremlins, but there's just nothing but tabletop quality or lower.

I zagged when I should have zigged.

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>>49142772
>mfw when playing X-wing

>>49135716
I did not say anything about it lol.
The whole really really creepy druids theme (like from Undying for example) is pretty cool. No good guys and stuff, and the only "good" guys are actually ferocious hunters.
>>49136966
I actually meant to type "which solos" actually, but was distracted.
>>49136717
I like the aesthetics, but they should really, REALLY remodel their stuff. Look at my poor Sunburst crew. They are ugly AF. More resembling the gnomes than an actual human.
Tons of stuff to complain about.
Infinity and Malifaux for me are top tier. Like no comments about that, obviously way too good for others.

WHFB was and is good. Do not know about ruleset, did not play a single game, but lore is lovely so far, not to mention the aesthetics.

Then WH40k, because they rework and remake their stuff to actually resemble, for example, big guys in power armor, not a hydrocephalic babies who constantly want to shit and thats why move with their legs spread that much.

And, lastly, warmachine. I personally play menoth, well, other factions aswell, but menoth army is biggest.
So far the heavy infantry have way too big shoulderpads, the legs of the jacks are sorta tiny, and look at the daggers of daughters of flame. LOOK AT THEM JOHNY! THATS NO DAGGERS! THATS FUCKING STICKS PRETENDING TO BE DAGGERS!
I have a huge list. It includes like whole goddamned Scorne.
On the other hand, there are trolls. They are exaggeratedly "feral" and wild. But they look cool somehow. Because they do not resemble humanoids with their blue skin and facial features. Hell, back in school i was painting the dudes who were totally looking like trolls - drinking, smoking, brawling and having fun about that. And they totally looked like trolls-as-they-are-now. INCEPTION. So i love them.

Some models direly require a redisign. Like all Circle beasts scream for redisign. They should look more beast-like. For example look at griffons. THEY HAVE MAN TORSO. EVERY beast in circle have MAN TORSO.

>>49144717
Circle beasts are dudes who drank magic potions that mutate them. Of course they have some human features you idiot.

>brainstorming Ret lists for my first tourney
>everything comes out looking like some flavor of heavy skew
I'd like to try Vyros2 with a couple heavies, a couple Griffons, and a mixed Dawnguard contingent, but I'm running out of time and it sounds like Synergy mandates 8 jacks + Lanyssa at all times. Meanwhile my secondary pairing options are either Rahn and his buddies that cry when faced with colossals, or Le Ossyman of Many Dice.

Why couldn't I have picked up a shit faction with exactly two viable lists and not have to worry about this stuff

>>49145091
Uhuh especially griffons you piece of retarded shit. Totally fucking drank the potions. Shitted into your granpa vagina, you toxic fuck.
If you would pick dicks off your eyes and read carefully, my point was to make them more bestial, thats it. Werewolves by default are bipedal and staff with big arms and resemble a mix between a human and a wolf. And the way it is in Circle it looks like they are more of a big humans with claws and wolf heads. Almost no fur and stuff at other parts of their bodies than heads.
But you couldnt read it.

ITT: people sperging out instead of posting pics of their models.

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>>49145836
Still brand new to the hobby (Got about 5 Sigmarines worth of experience)
Tips ?

>>49145916
Looks good as a start, I like the base. You need to be a bit more precise with your brushwork, especially on the armour plates, or use enamel-based washes on the edge of the lower areas. Also, a handy tip to make gold and bronze parts better, try highlighting with silver. Also, a darker brown wash on the teeth would benefit the mini greatly.

Overall a good start with place to improve, but it seems you'll do pretty well with the brush.

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>>49145974
Thanks for the advice.
Just a drop to wet the teeth or actually paint a bit in ?
I feel like I'm doing okay with base coats and dry brushing but so far have been abysmal at thin highlights. I think I keep too much caffeine and nicotine in my system.
Any tips to speed up the learning process on highlights ? Or it's just gonna be patience, practice and a steady hand ?

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>>49146063
If you don't have an actual wash, then drop some dark brown, get some PVA and thin it for about 9:1:1 ratio with water, paint, PVA glue. It'll work like a wash, tho you might need to retouch it a bit. If you do have, just drop it there.

Highlights are harder to master, but you can do it with drybrushing if you want with a lighter color and a REALLY dry brush.

Less nicotine, caffeine and a place to steady your hand at certainly works. Also, PP had an awesome dvd about painting minis, I learned highlighting from there. I have to dig up the dvd to check it, but it was downloaded from the web, so most probably it'd still up there somewhere. But I'm sure there lots of great videos on Youtube too, you could check GW's channel, maybe it has something for beginners.

Pictured is one of my earliest paintjobs, inproved steadily since, but these were and still are absolutely servicable.

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>>49145735
>Almost no fur and stuff at other parts of their bodies than heads.

That's because if they sculpted fur across the whole model, it would look like some sort Pekingese dog. You sculpt the longest, thickest areas of fur and leave the shorter body hair to just be painted on. Though I won't argue about the Griffons, those models seriously need a bit of a redesign.

>>49146177
Id be interested in seeing that paint dvd if you can dig up a link

>>49149198
It should be in the list in the OP with the book downloads

>>49149237
>>49149198
None of the links work for the dvd. I'll try to dig it up and if possible I'll upload it to somewhere.

>>49149305
https://mega.nz/#!XMURxQ5Y!Yd5wXtS5mN3Ha1Ng_ZkOUSOyNPmMFSkt_0YTTdzdd98
Here, I uploaded it to Mega. Feel free to add it to OP.

>>49091687
you're going to need a better example than warhammer 8th edition if you want to prove negative discussion doesn't mean anything considering that game was shitcanned for poor sales

>>49146916
Na, remember how wolves or big dogs look irl? They are totally furry. Compare to something like german watch dog lol or wolf. They look if not funny then just bit of retarded really. THE NIGGAWOLFE. Griffons - yeah, they need the resculpt direly. I am actually thinking of buying some of the WHFB griffions to proxxy them.

>>49151180
>I am actually thinking of buying some of the WHFB griffions to proxxy them.

Won't work, they're the complete wrong scale. WHFB's older metal Griffons might work for a Heavy, and the newer plastic one as a Colossal, but they're way too big to represent a Light.

>>49151180
Why do you type like an idiot? Stop it.

>>49135307
>>49135541

In theory, it's bad, but in practice, the overwhelming majority of people buying the new battleboxes are...

1) Preexisting Warmachine players getting into a new faction so they know how to paint models.

2) Preexisting warmachine players who are already in the faction, but want the new warcaster (not for sale yet) and an extra jack chassis or two, so they know how to paint models.

3) Experienced wargamers who are joining preexisting metas, so they know how to paint models.

4) Totally new players with no prior miniature experience who are joining established metas with preexsting players who will teach them how to paint models and point them in the direction of the countless free resources that will show them how to paint models.

None of these people really *need* that color painting guide (which is very bare bones) to the point where they'd rather go without the minis if they don't get it.

I'm sure there's situations where you have a brand new meta consisting of bunch of a bunch of people who all got together and decided to buy battle boxes even though none of them have any experience painting minis, and all of them want to use the studio scheme, but I don't think these customers are particularly common.

I definitely don't think that they exist in enough numbers that you'd deny sales to the above 4 groups in order to make sure they don't mis-paint their very first battlebox.

>>49136717

I originally wanted to get into Khador for the look (particularly the jacks), but started Menoth for the gameplay and fell in love with the look of its infantry. I picked up Legion as a second faction for a change of pace, but realized I hate the models and still prefer Menoth's playstyle.

If I was going to have a second faction, it might as well be one I like the look of, so I went back to Khador as my second faction.

>>49152565
Fuck off, shitted into your granpa's pussy again. Oh also vomited at your mom's dick aswell.
>>49152021
Well fuck. A huge conversion work ahead then, i guess. Curse you for forcing my hand PP. Curse you.

>>49152856
Knock it off

>>49152609
Of all those groups, group 4 seems like the ones most likely to walk away and never come back if they don't get the product in their hands asap. Groups 1 and 2 are already playing and know PP's supply gets fucked up fairly regularly, and group 3 would probably be in the store playing something else anyway and just grab it when it came in.

Maybe it's because the internet wasn't so comprehensive when I started mini gaming (or maybe because they could sell me more White Dwarfs if they didn't say anything), but nobody ever had anything to say to me about painting techniques. Hell, even when I jumped into WM at the end of MK 1, what I learned about painting was all trial and error and random googling.

So group 4 is the subset that are simultaneously best served by rushing the minis out or by having the proper painting guide in their hands.

>>49133425
>For tournaments is denny3 and scavy tho
What's your play into the Menoth matchup? They're my two favorite casters, but I can't bring myself to pair them because they both seem heavily disadvantaged into something like Severius 2 where "lol u can't spell me" is built right in to his card, on top of the Choir's normal no-spell warjack bullshit.

>>49153574

See, PP thought they'd mostly be selling battleboxes to new players too. That's why they had the number the had on hand.

But that ended up not being the case, and you not only have lots of totally new players, but lots of existing players pre-ordering and snatching them off the shelves too.

It's not so much worry that a year or two from now that people won't be playing at all, but they might not be after those battleboxes anymore.

In a year or two from now, people won't be chomping at the bit to get a hold of new batttleboxes the way they are right now, on the heels of a big marrketing campaign, edition change, and the largest meta that's ever existed.

A year from now, the battlebox casters could come out in individual packets so exsiting player demand for battleboxes plummets. A new release could top all the must have lists so demand for battleboxes from existing players plummets. A change in the meta or the fickle tastes of players could mean demand for the existing battleboxes plummets. Or maybe existing players decide that after a year, they don't like mk3 and start quitting and demand for the battlebox plummets.

If you have a product at launch and it's selling like hotcakes, you sell all that you can now rather than sit on that product and make the assumption that everyone who wants it now is going to want it just as badly a year from now.

>>Maybe it's because the internet wasn't so comprehensive when I started mini gaming (or maybe because they could sell me more White Dwarfs if they didn't say anything), but nobody ever had anything to say to me about painting techniques.

Well the internet is pretty comprehensive now. I had a painting guide in my book but never used it because I didn't use it either. Everything I learned about painting I learned either online, after talking to other players or from trial and error, all of which taught me more than 4 pages in the back of a book ever could.

>>49154164
>PP thought they'd mostly be selling battleboxes to new players too.

If they'd released the new Warnouns as metal blisters alongside the battleboxes, I can guarantee they wouldn't be having the stock problems they are now. Most of the people I know who bought one, myself included, did so because of the new character. And were subsequently disappointed by the playdoh-tier casting on them, but that's another issue altogether. It's really shitty that we're going to have to wait a year or so for them to get a separate release.

>>49125479

No more goddamn guessing ranges, thank fuck.

>>49155900
Warmachine would be so much better served by being a hex based game.

>>49155959
No game has ever been well served by being hex based.

>>49156144
I think you meant every game.

Hex based systems remove all of the worst rules and rules interactions of wargames.

>>49156193
Hexes are garbage. The only people who like hexes are retards and reptilians. So which are you, anon? Are you intellectually challenged or are you a shape shifting alien manipulating human society for your own diabolical ends?

>>49156224
You're welcome to explain the downsides of hexes, even though you're going to fail.

>>49125479
It is not significantly better. Is it better in general? I guess. I honestly have not been having fun with Trollbloods since Mk. 3 hit, but that may be just because Trolls are so incredibly boring now.

I don't know. I guess I'll keep playing.

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>>49145836
>>49145916
>>49146063

>>49156275
You are playing with hexes for one

>>49156874
I said a downside, not a benefit.

>>49156898
burden of fucking proof motherfucker.

>>49156909
I already discussed why hexes are better.

They remove one of the worst elements of most wargames: Measurement of range and other facings. Even with pre-measuring, there's far too much gray area that can come up, and you still have to ultimately come to an agreement with an opponent over very close ranges.

Hexes straight up remove that. There's never a question of it something is in range or not, if something is blocking LOS or not, if a model is entering or exiting a melee range, and all those other gray area pieces that don't add anything to the game.

>>49156948
This also serves to mitigate the tactic of sitting just outside of enemy ranges as well, because you can't be .001mm out of their range, losing practically none of your threat but keeping yourself safe from your opponent. No, you actually have to give up real ground to keep yourself safe.

>>49156948
How would varying model sizes work in a hex based game?

>>49146063
Lol hobbits are actually looking like little jews at that picture.
>>49152903
Will do what fucking ever i want. Free country and shit.

>>49156948
There isn't gray area now. It's in or not.

>>49156948
And so we give ourselves a massive smack in the nose with the rules by making the abstraction incredibly obvious?
>>49156964
That's a function of ranges rules and movement rules, not measuring. 1 hex, 1 inch, same difference.
>>49157041
They don't. And neither does a whole mess of terrain. You have to constantly work around the hexes.

>>49157041
You couldn't simply transplant the rules straight across, but at a guess small bases are one hex, mediums are four, and large are 7.

>>49157148
Sure, in theory. The problem is when those very close measurements come up, the ones that are 1cm or smaller, and it becomes unclear if something is in or out.

This is still obviously a factor, because players have begun getting their opponent to agree on a range when they pre-measure it, to ensure there's no gray area involved. Checking to ensure your caster is just outside of threat of an enemy assassination and then confirming it with your opponent because you're toeing the line has become the norm, and a great example of how gray area still exists.

>>49157551
Who gives a shit about abstraction? The rules already have plenty of examples of abstractions and silly shit.

The point is to create a system with good, straightforward rules that don't leave gray area or chances for misunderstandings.

As for terrain, you don't have to work around the hexes. You simply declare if a hex is terrain or not terrain.

>>49157902
>but at a guess small bases are one hex, mediums are four, and large are 7.

So a medium base would be 4 times larger than a small when in the current system they are less than 2 times larger.

So, essentially, hexes significantly reduce the granularity of measurement and volume as well as greatly restricting your ability to maneuver and position models.

>The problem is when those very close measurements come up, the ones that are 1cm or smaller, and it becomes unclear if something is in or out.

No it's not. If it's a cm out it's out. No gray area.

>players have begun getting their opponent to agree on a range when they pre-measure it

And? That completely eliminates any gray area that there could be in that situation. Not seeing the problem here.

>>49158019
You're thinking that the work arounds are features, and not flaws. The fact that people are doing things to mitigate the aspect of measurement means that the measurement is flawed. If it wasn't, they wouldn't need to get their opponent to agree on a range.

And you need to show that the changes to maneuver and positioning are actual disadvantages, instead of simply changes. The new system would be different, for sure, even assuming we used my off the cuff suggestions, but that doesn't mean it would be worse.

>>49156948
>They remove one of the worst elements of most wargames: Measurement of range and other facings. Even with pre-measuring, there's far too much gray area that can come up, and you still have to ultimately come to an agreement with an opponent over very close ranges.


but none of that is true

>>49158145
In theory, sure, none of it is true.

But in practice, it absolutely is. Pre measurement solved a lot of issues, and it's great that it's in the game. But gray areas can come up, especially considering that a player can't pre-measure every single aspect of the game.

For example, you have two models suffering an AOE effect. When you place a tool for blast damage, the tool appears to fit between the two models, but also seems to be touching both bases. It's close enough that you can't actually tell if it's touching or not. How do you call it?

>>49158133
>The new system would be different, for sure

It wouldn't even resemble the current system. You'd pretty much have to completely redesign the vast majority of the game.

>>49158199
not gonna happen. It will be in or out. You are just one of the faggots in the rules forum that gotta raise questions on the theoretical on something being within a micron of each other.