Is it fair to have intelligent created creatures be legally indebted

>>48869031
Do you think it would be fair for parents to make their children pay back all the money they cost to raise?

>>48869063
Simpsons already did it.

>>48869063
I was raised that way essentially. My parents were neither nice people nor very good at parenting. But if anything it gave me strong sense of obligation (which employers always appreciate).

Why does it matter if it's "fair"?

>>48869031
Is it fair to have to pay for something you didn't ask for?

>>48869146
obviously, for purposes of fitting it into an alignment grid.

>>48869181
If it's D&D, which edition? 5e?

>>48869156
Maybe it's just me, but considering the alternative of not being, I'd rather take being with a debt.

If you got messed up in an accident and had a choice between getting fixed up and having to pay for it later or being left to expire there, for free. Which one would you take?

>>48869031
>>48869063
I didn't ask to be born, I'm not paying shit.

>>48869213
3.5 is the one errybody knows.
I haven't actually kept up with D&D's after that, since I moved on to other systems around that time

>>48869220
It's by no means the same question. Impaired existence is not the same as non-existence. The question is outright one you cannot ask the intelligent created creature.

>>48869063
Isn't this basically what student loans are?

>>48869220
I'd rather not be, or left to die.

>>48869234
Alignment discussions are always retarded, so if the question isn't sincere there's no point discussing it. Suffice to say only like 2 alignments would have real problems with something like this.

>>48869248
student loans are loans given to sudents attnding college that they cannot afford

Nope

It depends on the creature and the rate of exchange.

I would say it's probably immoral to create and enslave (because this is slavery) anything you could contract to existing creatures for a fair rate of exchange.

>>48869285
It's one of the cushier forms of slavery, though.
Wageslavery is WAY better than, say, chattel slavery.

>>48869295
That doesn't make it fair or morally right.

>>48869295
>Wageslavery is WAY better than, say, chattel slavery.
Probably because the former isn't literal slavery.

So, basically, the business plan is to mass produce relatively high quality golems, then collect their worth plus a little extra.
It's like the ultimate banking scheme.
Though it leaves the question of what the golems do after they're done paying off their creation loans.

>>48869327
make more golems

>>48869295
It's not really wage slavery, though. You are indebted to a specific person who created you, and considering the fact that this particular form of slavery would be considered "fair", and presumably legal, you were likely created for the express purpose of enslavement. And you may be designed in such a way that you can easily be discarded after you have paid your debt. By this, I mean you may be designed to be entire;y dependent on your master, so that you are forced to to serve him even after paying your debt.


That's how it would be done to maximize profits by the creator.

If it's specifically golems I think they would mostly be okay with this. A golem is essentially a being created in terms of value and cost, right? It costs a great deal to produce and most are nonintelligent sources of labour: like literally you built a golem because it is very good and efficient at doing X thing, like moving heavy objects around or guarding a door.

So if you have intelligent golems I think they would be very value orientated: they would absolutely and utterly know the worth of a day's work. From that perspective saying: I created you for 22,000 gold pieces and you must repay that before I can let you free is something even intelligent golems would mostly accept. I think they would even accept interest. They might NOT accept being told how to earn that money, and insist they earn it themselves as they wish and pay it back. But you could incentize things by considering labour done for you worth more than miscellaneous labour.

>>48869248
Student loans are a contract entered into by choice. Creation isn't.

>>48869386
I think they're free to go get another job, sure.
As long as they don't try to skip out on the debt.

>>48869248
Depends on the setting. In some countries you don't have to pay back student loans until your wage is higher than some specified cutoff (I think twice the minimum wage). Like, at all.

>>48869236
It's the nearest approximation I could think of using real life examples. If you can come up with a better one, please go ahead and share with the rest of the class.

>>48869253
Your call. I rather would.

>>48869408
>tfw you accidentally made greek golems

>>48869408
>underground railroad for created entities is started by other entities and people who are aginst the debt
This idea could make for a very interesting campaign

>>48869248
Student loans are you paying back an institution for education you may or may not use. Not the same as paying your parents back for feeding and housing you for 18 or so years

>>48869432
It's like having a baby and making the baby aware as soon as it possible can that it has to live with you until you are a legal adult and you are keeping track of every expense it incurs and it has to pay them all back before it can leave you. And at the end once it can actually start working you ask if it would rather live or die.

>>48869438
Don't forget that one of the biggest golem manufacturers is a golem who went through this system.
Or at least, that sounds really cool to me.

Yeah, most soft-raised kids don't have to pay room and board when they begin work until they get out on their own. I had to do so, paying 25% of my weekly earnings to my parents.

>>48869277
No, Student Loans are an unsecured loan. You can do what 75% of what students do and spent less than a few grand and go to community college and gain better results. Your inability to budget, plan and into forethought does not imply they are akin to slavery.

>>48869482
I love how you think paying board is "hard-raised"

>>48869438
>underground railroad ultimately damages the profitability of making more golems, spelling an end or decline in golem kind
Either side has a good reason, too!

>>48869482
>Your inability to budget, plan and into forethought does not imply they are akin to slavery.
I never said they were. I was explaing them to an anon who thought it was similar to parents asking a child to pay back everything the parents gave them.

>>48869509
It could be medium raised.

>>48869515
>golems begin manufacturing themselves to maintain their race, starting a tribe
>other golems exploit other members of their race for profit, like in >>48869438

>>48869536
Like in Eberron, then.

>>48869536
meant to quote >>48869467

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>>48869509
Never said that, I stand by what I say in that soft raised kids don't have to pay board and believe they are owed a great life because they were overcharged for college.

>>48869564
what's with the random Paine pic?

>>48869031
This is sort of the premise of Rats, Bats and Vats.
Basically the settings government created clone soldiers to fight a war. They are basically slaves, until they manage to pay off a highly inflated debt based on the cost to produce them.

>>48869063
You do, or did tradtionally, by working their trade and taking care of them in their dotage.

>>48869432
And suddenly the cost of buying yourself is so high that it will take until the heat-death of the universe to pay off. How could this have happened!

Should have just not been.

>>48869595
Hes being high on himself. Try to ignore it.

>>48869637
hey now, golems aren't THAT expensive.
Unless you were made at like, peak golem.
Which is when they run out of... uh... diamonds? Were those what you needed to make golems? I don't remember.

>>48869465
Yeah, that's a bit convoluted but a better approximation.

>>48869617
>You do, or did tradtionally, by working their trade and taking care of them in their dotage.
still do in China. That's why male children are more highly favored; their future wife will take care of the parents in later years, while a daughter would take care of her husband's parents.

>>48869637
>>48869657
>creators add unnecessary parts to a creation to raise it's creation cost and therefore, it's debt

>>48869031
If it was fair, it wouldn't be magic.

>>48869667
Is it really unnecessary if you get a battle cannon and coffee dispenser out of the deal?

>>48869657
Mr Shine! Him diamond!"

>>48869595
A hero of mine.

>>48869465
No its not, it would be like letting it grow and keeping it until such a time where it can earn a wage and a living at which point you take enough to help with bills, taxes and expenses and help with the Household.

>ITT: Bern Victims

>>48869691
I was thinking more expensive building materials that serve the same function

>>48869746
Ah.
I was thinking more along the lines of JET WATER LUGE BATMAN

and ARCTIC COMMANDO BATMAN

>>48869715
>No its not, it would be like letting it grow and keeping it until such a time where it can earn a wage and a living at which point you take enough to help with bills, taxes and expenses and help with the Household.
who the fuck said the creation would live with it's creator?

>>48869773
Like, maybe if the creator offered boarding and work services, sure.
But that shit is in no way garunteed!

>>48869667
>>creators add unnecessary parts to a creation to raise it's creation cost and therefore, it's debt
This is one of a rare few legitimate reasons to put tits on a golem.

>>48869799
Is "it was made to be a stripperbot" also a legitimate reason?

>>48869856
>being sexually aroused by breasts
>>>/normalfags/

>>48869888
>not liking golem gals

>>48870024
Golem gals are nice but having to convert to Orthodox Judaism is a real drag.

>>48870060
Just get them during their rebellious teen years.
Which for a golem is like, what, 600?

>>48869701
He was a Troll, not a golem.

>>48870082
nah, it's when they're almost finished paying off their debt and decide to rebel against their creator

I feel like this could all be made much better if the primary form of golem income is fighting in the golem arena.

>>48869667
>implying you want your slave to free itself when you can decrease the value of it's work through inflation.

enjoy your .0000000000000001 cents a year.

>>48871321
>implying you want your slave to free itself when you can decrease the value of it's work through inflation.
what

>>48871351
from what I can decode of that moonspeak, either something about making so many golems work becomes valueless, or doing a scam by printing more money.

>>48869063 Didn't Pratchett's dwarves have to do that before getting married?

>>48872651
It sounds vaguely familiar.

Daily reminder that it's only slavery if the created creature doesn't WANT to serve.

If they literally can not comprehend, let alone think of, not serving their creator, is it really an infringement on their freedom?

>>48869031
If we're going for a lawful evil style magocracy/empire then yeah go for it

>>48872954
A being unable to think freely hardly qualifies as 'intelligent'

>>48872954
I'm with you on this one, Chairman Yang.

>>48869080
>implying there's something the Simpsons HASN'T done

Would this also apply to Awakened creatures having to repay the material cost used to awaken them?

>>48873720
That sounds tricky based which animals you are choosing to awaken

>>48873731

Why would that make a difference?

>>48873753
how's a squirrel going to earn significant cash?

>>48873772
stealing shit

>>48873772
Scout? Messenger? Operating small machinery?
Porn?

>>48873772

A wolf could hunt for you, a falcon could scout, a griffon you can ride, etc. Presumably you'd only want to awaken something that'd be useful in bondage.

>>48873856
Plus you could have some backups like the rarely used but much maligned CITIZEN SNIPS

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>>48874289

>>48869031
No by that logic children would have to pay their parents for being created and raised. In actuality the parents pay a fortune to raise the child to adulthood and thus usefulness but are never paid back.

If the society makes their children reimburse their parents then yes it would be fair within that society.

>>48874473
Read the thread

>>48873856
Your mom is useful in bondage

>>48874473
lots of societies totally do and have, though.

>>48869031

David Brin's "Uplift" universe functions on this logic on a much bigger scale. In-setting, by far the most common way (and according to most historical evidence the only way) to reach sapience is to be genetically "uplifted" by an already-sapient species. As thanks for them bringing you from shitty animalhood to full-blown spacefaring society, your entire species is generally indebted to them for about a hundred thousand years. They become your "patron", and you, their "client". If you ever uplift a species of your own, you become a patron, and your patron becomes a kind of grandpatron, and so on.

The responsibility works both ways, though. Patrons are held responsible for anything their clients might do while under their care. There's been at least one species that was reverted to clienthood after their clients wigged out as a result of faulty genetic engineering and fried a planet. Galactic society pretty much pointed their collective guns at their head and said, "You obviously don't know what you're doing, why don't you go get babysat by this more established clan for the next ten decamillenia?"

>>48876062
...and on emerging as full 'adults' they are allowed to be independent, but can still call on their 'clan', their patron and their patron's patron, and so on, if things get seriously sticky. (Though there are a lot of intricate rules to client/patron politics and many situations in which a species can get themselves fucked up all on their own. Including one who gambled their existence away.)

>>48874473
Spotted the western scum

>>48876266
Show me the contract children sign.