>fiends are allowed to invade the Material Plane basically

>>48865704
The forces of good are weaker than the forces of evil. It hasn't been mentioned since planescape, but they didn't have the resources to wage a campaign against both sides at the same time, so they manipulate events to allow mortal heroes to defeat the fiends, only getting involved themselves if the balance has been tipped too far.
They're terrified that they'll be destroyed if the two sides reach a truce and turn on the celestials instead.

>>48865704
Two answers:

1. Because God and Devil (or whatever analog-entities you believe in) made a deal. God kept his word not to intervene but the Devil cheated, as devils & demons always do.

2. If the armies of heaven and hell both intervene in the material plane, then free will in mortals ceases and everything becomes a battleground for heaven & hell. Ie, the real world disappears.

Addendum: fiends cannot enter just willy-nilly, they have to follow certain laws, protocols and opportunities. That's why not every single locale on every world in every plane is stuffed fulled of endless hordes of demons. They can only intervene in small amounts.

>>48866493
>fiends cannot enter just willy-nilly, they have to follow certain laws, protocols and opportunities.
My favorite version of that one is that fiends have to be *invited* to the Material Plane, by a mortal. Which means every demonic invasion, every legion of hell loose in the mortal world, every crib empty because a fiend ate its occupant, is ultimately because someone was greedy, cruel, desperate, or gullible enough to give them a toehold in our world.

>>48866030
People forget this a lot. In Golarion, in the Forgotten Realms, in a lot of fantasy settings, Evil is either more powerful or more numerous than Good on a celestial scale.

>>48865704
The forces of Good and Evil are empowered by those respective acts by mortal agents. A demon doing bad shit on the Prime Material doesn't really fill the universe with Evil Energy, nor does an angel saving everyone. And as far as mortals are concerned, Evil/Good actions have less of an effect on universal power shifts the closer you are to that alignment already (a Paladin doing Good results in less Good gain for the universe than a normal guy doing the same action).

The bad guys pop in to tempt humanity with power to get them to do Evil, because as they fell through the alignments, they're generating Evil. Once they get to the bottom there's no point. The baddies themselves will also show up to fuck with everything because throwing the land into chaos emboldens bandits (who do Evil) and causes everyone to despair, making them more likely to do Evil just to survive.

The angels don't show up to solve everyone's problem because that doesn't generate Good. If someone solves mankind's problems all the time, they're gonna get lazy and shitty. If they all live in perfect peace and harmony without having worked towards that and forged a society of their own making, you're left with decadent mortal shitheads who are even more susceptible to Evil influence now. And if you push the bad guys too far by cutting off their access to Evil through the actions of monstrous entities who you've now wiped out, they're going to get desparate and stop fighting their civil war, which you don't really want.

Both sides are more interested in getting mortal agents to act on their behalf than they are in doing things themselves. You just see demons and devils acting on their own way more often because A) hell sucks and B) it's a means to gain personal power outside of the usual chain of command which they can use to usurp their leaders; the angels and other Good entities aren't that concerned about trying to fuck over their bosses for personal gain.

>>48867071
So demon invasions net nothing because they encourage both terrible and heroic acts? I mean with that logic why would any external faction bother?

>>48867358
If pre-existing, already Good heroes everyone likes stop the invasion, they produce much less "Cosmic Good" than if a bunch of Neutral nobodies stop it and become very Good in the process.

The whole time, the demon invasion is generating Evil from everyone they drive into despair, every Good or Neutral person they get to start doing shitty things (and potentially turn Evil) just to survive, not to mention the material (artifacts) and immaterial (souls) gains they make. They're also probably banking on, you know, not losing. If every invading demon knew this was going to end in them getting beat the fuck up and sealed in a jar for 100,000 years or permanently mega-killed, they really wouldn't bother.

The reason demons invade and angels don't is because killing or incarcerating all murderers doesn't make everyone nearby more Good, and improving the lots of all people (raising them out of poverty, eliminating disease) does not eliminate all potential avenues for Evil action, but it does remove the possibility of people doing Good. Donating to charity and healing the sick is Good, but if an angel has made it so there's no poor people and no one with the flu or a broken leg, what the fuck are you going to do? To top that off, the Good the angel generates by doing all of this is a pittance compared to what would have been made if a mortal had done it, regardless of whether they were already very Good (little increase to overall Good) or were merely Neutral and became Good through those actions (a much larger amount). And there still remains the potential for people living in this utopia to be dissatisfied and do Evil.

The way the cosmic rules are set up gives Evil a lot more wiggle room, because if they had to play by precisely the same (but opposite) rules, they'd die out. And a lot of the rules that Evil does have to play by, we conveniently ignore because it's only cool to fuck with or hamstring Good PCs.

>>48867544
>And a lot of the rules that Evil does have to play by, we conveniently ignore because it's only cool to fuck with or hamstring Good PCs.
Example:

A demon is invading the land and killing everyone. His ultimate goal, for whatever reason, is to explode the whole island, killing everyone and everything on it. Obviously, Good guys don't want this, so they set out to stop it.

But you're an Evil guy. And not just Evil in the sense that you're a shithead murderer, but you actively seek out fiendish powers and bargain with them. The blackness of your soul is a source of power, and were you to become a goodie two-shoes, you'd lose magical powers or severely cripple your ability to do all the cool evil shit that gets you what you want. You're like the Evil form of a Paladin or Cleric, some of your skills or strength is dependant on you being Evil.

So this asshole is trying to blow up your island nation. You live there, and if he succeeds, you die. So now you're thrust into the common cliché of a bad guy teaming up with the good guys to stop an even more bad guy out of mutual self-interest. Along the way, you have options to do either Good or Evil things which can alter the kind of support (in terms of items or manpower) you'll have at the end of this adventure to accomplish the goal of stopping the demon. Here's a quest to save this baron's daughter from whatever, a Good act, for which you'll be rewarded with cash and a magical sword and you might be able to call on his guards in the final conflict or whatever. So go for it, right?

And that's how 99% of tables will play it. They see no problem with a hideously Evil anti-Paladin doing something unabashedly Good if it rewards / empowers them because "I can use that power to do more Evil later," or "it serves my personal ends, which is Evil".

>>48867650
No. Saving that girl is a Good act. It's going to lessen your Evil, and the fact that you are Evil and have done Good is going to generate a SHITLOAD of Good in the universe, which whatever forces that empower you are not going to be pleased with, which may lessen your access to your Evil strengths.

In the same way that a Paladin should not straight-up murder a dickhead king or the leader of the thieves' guild even though it directly eliminates a huge source of Evil, makes his life easier, and grants him access to all that guy's magical loot and some of the resources which further improve his ability to do Good, neither should an Evil shithead who at least cares about maintaining their Evil ever be doing something Good. And you can't just wave it away with, "I'll do some more Evil later to make up for it," or "it will create more Evil down the line, so I'm technically serving the Greater Evil here by doing Good," because that doesn't work in the reverse. Only actions by your hand matter, not domino effects or your ultimate intent.

So the best, most Evil solution is to kill the baron, take all his shit, and charter a boat off the fucking island. Hit the mainland, grow your power base there, hire a bunch of shitstompers, then invade Hell to kill the demon asshole who blew up your homeland and taking his throne.

>>48865704
Who says shit about that being allowed?
Don't know aboutyour settings, but in mine the heavens regularly send celestial equivalents of seal team six out to go fuck up evil's shit, they just send commandos instead of hordes

one thing i've always wondered is that if half celestials are damn near always good, why doesn't heaven just send a bunch of angelic waifus/husbandos down for a generation or two and eugenics out evil?

>>48867930
Three reasons come to mind.

1) That would leave a lot of mortals alone and feeling left out and unloved, or inadequate.

2) It would suggest that success and goodness are hereditary, when they may not be by the world's mechanics.

3) Or they could just be using them all for other things. Remember the Avatar Crisis from Forgotten Realms? They demigods, Avatars, and angels were fucking BUSY, they didn't have time to be making godbabbie even if they physically could have more or less any time they wanted.

>>48867544
>>48867650
>>48867724
You're going to have to dumb this down for me, because I don't get it at all.

What's the point of celestials if they can't even intervene to demon lords literally invading the mortal world through the Underdark? Which was exactly what happened in Out of the Abyss. Not a single celestial showed up there.

>>48868746
The setting makes sense. The adventures that people make in that setting don't always. FR has a very active extraplanar community (especially when it comes to deities) but as far as official shit goes, it barely ever moves, and that goes double for what people do at their own tables.

Remember, these are the people who made an adventure all about Elemental Evil trying to take over the world and centered it on the cults of four powerful Elemental Princes of Evil / Evil Archomentals, but did not ONCE mention the Elemental Princes of Good / Good Archomentals or the Elemental Lords (who are mainline FR deities that didn't even get billing in the PHB).

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>>48869199
Yeah, that makes sense.

Rise of Tiamat: Bahamut never intervening a single time.
Princes of the Apocalypse: Good archomentals and elemental lords never intervene.
Out of the Abyss: Celestials never intervene.

Are the good guys just lazy?

>>48869246
The writers are.
I don't know when this shift happened, but it was never a problem back in the old BECMI days. You had Immortals hopping down and risking their own godhood to fuck shit up all the time.

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Presumably because the mortals are really good at curbstomping demons

>>48865704
>Why is this allowed?
Because they signed the Pact Primeval and didn't read the fine print.
Asmodeus checkmated them before the game even begun.

>>48869591
The Pact Primeval doesn't cover willy-nilly fiendish invasions.

>>48869616
The exact details of the pact are left to DM interpretation but in a vague, general sense they prevent the upper planes from interfering directly with the lower planes.

>>48866748
I know. Planescape did it best though.

>>48869591
This is why they should have kept Gargauth on retainer.

>>48867930
Magical_realm_intensifies.jpg

While individual celestials may be stronger than individual demons and devils, the total sum host of angels is ridiculously tiny compared to the armies of Hell and the literally infinite hordes of the Abyss.

One Solar going down to face the demon lords will find himself mobbed by three of them and seventeen balor generals besides.

>>48869791
Okay, but it's better than letting some mortal chucklefucks risk their lives doing the same thing, right?

>>48869818
Not really. Depending on setting of course, but mortals can outstrip the powers of angels and gods by ridiculous degrees.

In Forgotten Realms (where Out of the Abyss takes place), remember that Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul were all 3 mortal adventurers who decided to kill the ultimate god of evil and claim his power. (The ultimate god of evil politely handed his power over without resisting but the point here is that they thought they had a fighting chance.) The vast majority of mortals are useless, but truly exceptional mortals are beyond the machinations of anything except the overgods and elder evils (and the Lady of Pain).
Given time and the right equipment, mortals can defeat both heaven and hell. Only the fact that the abyss and the far realm are infinite prevents them from being surmounted in the same way.

>>48869818
When angel souls get captured and turned into demons and shit it tends to turn out way worse than if another four or five mortals get turned into lemures / manes.

>>48869927
>>48869978
But 5e is making it so that these mortals are achieving all this shit as a party of four level 15 PCs.

Isn't a single solar angel completely stronger than a party of four level 15 PCs?

>>48870154
Levels are just an abstraction to represent power, all that means is that level 15 represents a higher level of power in 5e than it did in previous editions.

>>48870210
No way, level 15 PCs in 5e are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay weaker than level 15 PCs in 3.X.

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>>48865704
Your post is very interesting and all, but let's turn our attention to the point that really matters here.

I'd fuck the angel on your picture.
I don't care what is it - a girl, a boy, even some kind of sexless abomination with vagina dentata and seventeen eyes in places where they clearly don't belong.

I'd find a way to fuck it.
I'd find a way to get myself off and get it off too.

Mark my words.

>>48870238
Then everything else must also be weaker.

>>48865704
>celestials are not allowed to intervene
But they are.
They're allowed to empower mortals to go do that shit.

>>48865704
mortals dieing is not a horrible thing. they'll die anyway.

Why is it that angels NEVER exist in games except when Gate is involved but there's demons in every spooky forest on the continent?

>>48870559
So that the mortal PCs have something to do.

>>48870559
DMs are bad

>>48870559
In any game that has Devas as a playable race, that isn't true. In the Forgotten Realms and the default Greyhawk/Blackmoor worlds, that isn't true. In Planescape and Spelljammer, that isn't true.

>>48870718
>In any game that has Devas as a playable race

4e devas aren't angels.

I like 4e's devas, which were explicitly Earthbound angles designed to work around limits.

Oh, and M:tG has angels as actors just as much as demons. (the last block literally redid the metaplot of 40k replacing space Marines with winged ladies)

>>48870765

How are they not angels?

They literally have Paragon Path's dedicated to being more angel like.

>>48870765
No, but they are the incarnated spirits of them, and Aasimar are their offspring, so their mere existence means they were around at some point.

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>>48870825
No (angel) keyword.

>>48870559
Blame your DM. In my setting outsiders only ever come to the realm when someone gives them a way in.

>>48870833
No aasimar in 4e.

>>48870825
The same way elves aren't eladrin or rilmani despite starting out that way.

>>48870876
True, but how hard is it to houserule them when they existed in most editions before and after?

>>48865704

4e solved this with the primal ban and as>>48866030 and >>48866748 mentioned, the Gods and their servants are outnumbered. They only won the Dawn War because most of the primordials were absolute retards, so the Gods formed the first adventuring parties to chain them up, and this still ended with a shattered Lattice of Heaven, a ton of dead gods, and that whole Tharizdun thing.

Good and Law are stretched thin. Chaos and Evil are rampant.

>>48871034
Why does the primal ban not stop demons from pouring in anyway?

>>48870870
And literally every pure church in the world doesn't allow for even a single angel to pass through?

>>48867930
>>48868007
>>48869783
>Heaven steps up it's game
>All angels are now 20/10 cheesecake/fuckbois
Let the breeding program commence

>>48871052

It does, for the most part. It's why Demogorgon couldn't just gate his ass to the world and fuck everyone to death back then.

The primal ban can't stop mortals from inviting bad shit into the world, so when primordial cultists, demon cultists, devil worshippers, the priests of evil gods, etc. get offered delicious candy in exchange for letting their lords and masters step into the world...not a lot the ban can do.

>>48870883
>>48870856

That's pretty pedantic.

>>48871909
But why can't we do the same with Anges? Sure you might go to the "If angels do everything humans will be babies" argument, but it doesn't matter if there are no humans left because some cultists summoned just a few too many demons and the heroes died early in their quest. Why can't we get Angels when shit goes sideways through a blender?

>>48872767
>But why can't we do the same with Anges?

You can. Angel summoning is a thing.
Shit you can become an angel in 4e. But there are a lot less angels than there are devils, demons, and elementals.

>>48872910
Angels are native to all of the celestial Upper (Good) planes, in something of a break with how the Lower Planes work. There you have a clear delineation between the Devils (LE), Fiends (NE), and Demons (CE). The respective Good counterparts are Archons (LG), Guardinals (NG), and Eladrin (CG). When you're factoring in all of those guys as being in opposition to the Lower Planes forces, the fight isn't so lopsided.

Angels are unique in that they also have to watch out for the Elementals of the Inner Planes depending on how much you want to use the Primordial stuff from 4E. Most of that fight is completely gone though with the Abeir/Toril split, and the remaining Primordials / Elemental Lords don't really give a shit about the Prime Material or any Outer Plane (with the exception of Kossuth, who still cares less about the PM than pretty much any non-Primordial). Opposition to remaining Elemental-typed Outsiders like the various Genie races would be predicated on them primarily being evil assholes.

>>48873333

I mean I specifically run 4e PoL cosmology for the reasons you state, because if the fight isn't lopsided then there's no reason for multiplanar adventures or demon princes to be a thing at all.

(But I also run 4e so I'm a filthy heretic in general).

>>48873446
I run standard cosmology with the 4E Primordial background, but none of that Elemental Chaos stuff. Gives the Inner Planes something to do and adds more to the creation myth beyond "in the beginning Shar and Selune fought a lot".

>>48873519
>inner planes
>not elemental chaos
Awful taste.

>>48873519

I'm personally not a Faerun fan so I run with the 4e cosmology and a customized Nentir Vale setting.

>>48873607
If you have a full understanding of all the Inner Planes there's plenty of interface between them all to allow for multi-elemental and competing elemental nonsense. They're geographically infinite and pockets of opposing alignments show up in a given plane anyway (a giant fireball in the middle of the Plane of Water for no reason).

Most people deal with the Inner Planes as just Air-Fire-Earth-Water as distinct entities, ignorant of how they meld together into the paraelemental Smoke-Magma-Ooze-Smoke, or with the Positive and Negative everyone also forgets about creating the quasielemental Lightning-Vacuum-Radiance-Ash-Mineral-Dust-Steam-Salt Planes.

And if you're playing Dark Sun, you want quasi-elemental shit everywhere, because those are your baddies outside of Defilers and fucking slaad.

>>48873687
You're basically saying "the most interesting parts of the planes are where elements meet and collide."

So... why not just use Elemental Chaos?

Planes of smoke, ooze, vacuum, ash, and dust are boring as fuck.

>>48873877
DMs and writers don't even use the interesting parts of the "boring", single-elemental planes.

Everything you want out of the Elemental Chaos, minus Limbo, is already in the standard Great Wheel shit, plus a crapload of other stuff you'll never get to kick around in. There's simply more stuff, more options, more potential to do shit under GW than you'll ever have under EC.

After 5E went back to the Great Wheel, they also put Elemental Chaos around everything else, so you have THREE fucking kinds of cake to eat now. There should be nothing to complain about.

>>48873932
Why do you need planes of smoke, ooze, vacuum, ash, and dust when you can already have those in the Elemental Chaos and have them crash and collide with other elements anyway?

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>>48873932

As someone who is familiar enough with the 2e/3.X-era Great Wheel to know what "kamerel," "vaati," and "khayal" all are and to know of the bizarre border regions of the quasielemental planes featured in the 2e Inner Planes book, I can safely say that the 2e's configuration of the Inner Planes is incredibly dull and without purpose.

A more interesting way to handle it, so I believe, is to cast the Deep Ethereal as the Elemental Chaos (because that is what it is: the primordial font of all matter and energy, the plane of infinite potential) and to cast various Prime worlds as element-specific "elemental planes," as described here: >>48813531

>>48873949
The Great Wheel gives them entire borders where they crash and collide with the other elementals, and they can crash and collide even in planes they DON'T border because pockets of any plane can show up in any other plane regardless of proximity. You can have everything you want out of the EC here, and 5E ALSO gives you the EC.

>>48865704
Because the Material Plane
, important as it is to its inhabitants, is merely one of billion planes that make up the Multiverse. Celestials and Infernals reside outside the timeline, which allows them full view of everyone's destinies. When either one of them intervenes, they need to limit their powers as to prevent rendering the plane asunder. Also, the act binds them to the timeline, changing it and limiting their view of it.

Furthermore, Celestials disdain intervening because not only they prefer mortals to clean their shit up, it gives fiends the perfect excuse to escalate by bringing more forces and powers to bear

>>48874479
>Celestials and Infernals reside outside the timeline
Bullshit.

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I believe many celestial outsiders would love nothing more than to take the ol' cosmic battle of good vs evil right to the fiends who make a move on the prime material, but are held back by their superiors/elders/deities. This stems from a fear of corruption and eventual "fall", though not by exposure to demons. They fear corruption by MORTALS.

A mortal's existence is defined by a daily compromise between the ideals of good and evil simply to live and survive. Living a perfectly good life is impossible. Whether it's the paladin allowing a corrupt politician to stay in power to maintain societal order or the peasant stealing an honest merchant's goods to feed his family, all people balance somewhere between ethical ideals.

Before a fiend, the celestial sees only a simple obstacle to cosmic good that must be destroyed and given no consideration. The chance of being corrupted through exposure to a fiend is extremely low. But in the presence of mortals who even at best must contend with minor evils or indiscretions in their daily lives, the faith and resolve of a celestial can be gradually chipped away. And like a frog in slowly boiling water, the celestial will find themselves and their views of the multiverse changed before they know what happened.

The higher-ups in the heavens have been around long enough to see it happen before and thus will avoid exposing the rank and file to the corrupting influence of mortals.

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angel bump

Also realized the vast majority of my angel folder is either sexy or horrifying

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>>48876293
Those are both good things, though.

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>>48875820
So why aren't fiends other than succubi redeemed by mortals?

Is it basically "lol, good is fragile and uselessly bureaucratic"?

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>>48876424
It has to do with the very nature of good and evil, and the environments their representatives reside in.

In the lower planes it's every fiend for himself. They may form alliances or even long term relationships, but it's all in the pursuit of their individual advancement. They neither expect nor receive support on "good will". When a fiend appears on the prime, it's usually because some mortal called them there for power, money, information, and so on. They're used to dealing with others who have only their own self interest in mind. Even if they should end up on the prime by accident or luck, what mortal would show kindness to clawed/scaled/flaming/whatever monster whose personality is shaped by an existence of cruelty, selfishness, and literal evil with a capital E V I L. Succubi occasionally reverse-fall through the tendency of mortals to have attachments to beautiful and/or fuckable entities and thus show them affection that fiend had otherwise never known.

Celestials, on the other hand, nominally exist in a place where everyone looks out for everyone else and those in charge who responsibility over them have their best interest in mind. It's an ideal that all but the most twisted of mortal civilizations hold dear but can never truly attain. An angel appearing in a prime settlement is in for quite a culture shock when they find homeless people, racial and class prejudices, or just plain capitalism. Imagine a Starfleet officer from Star Trek beaming down to medieval Earth. Imagine being from a world where everyone is equal, has access to miraculous magic/technology, and no one starves or falls ill. Then teleport down to a world where every day is a struggle to survive, where your course in life is primarily due to luck of birth, where the threat of disease, starvation, or death always lurks around the corner.

I could write all night about how an average prime civilization would react to an actual angel appearing but I'm out of time.

>>48876424
>So why aren't fiends other than succubi redeemed by mortals?
My explanation is that succubi are more likely to go native while undercover, when other fiends enter the world they don't pretend to be something they're not and are likely surrounded by evil while they're there

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>>48877302
>>48876424
Now I really want to see a non-succubus turn good or hell even neutral, just because they went native.

>Pit Fiend crosses over into the world, takes over a mortal kingdom.
>Once he's actually in charge, his new kingdom falls into turmoil as the people rebel, refuse to work, run away, and otherwise refuse to serve him.
>He begins making concessions, giving them rights, paying them instead of enslaving them, letting them worship their gods, and so forth.
>One day he wakes up to a peaceful prosperous kingdom, with singing birds and laughing children in a city of marble, and realizes he's not actually much of an Evil Overlord anymore.

>>48877690
>Redemption via practicality
My favorite kind of redemption, even better than redemption via snu snu

>>48877690
Stealing this.

>>48876424
Because Evil is inclusive while Good is exclusive, a Good being has very strict rules to follow in order to maintain goodness, while Evil beings can mostly do whatever they want without compromising their core morality.

To clarify, very few acts are inherently good, almost any benign act could actually be evil if it's done for the purposes of deception. On the other hand many things ARE inherently evil, as an extreme example murdering an orphanage full of innocent children will always be an evil act regardless of what good it might cause for whatever contrived reason.

>>48879141
I know this strays in sophistic shit, but I dunno about that categorization; deception itself is an act, and an arbitrarily good act is, likewise, an action.

Blending them together arbitrarily inflates the number of 'evil' actions in potentia, when in reality deception itself is the evil act. Furthermore, deception itself may not even be an evil act, but a morally ambivalent one.

I mean, really, Evil actions are those intended to wound or cause harm to a subject, and Good actions are intended to be beneficial or helpful to a subject, right?

Of course, morality then gets a lot more shifty at that point, so I'm going to stop there.