Dawnborn RPG Open Alpha Begins

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>>48618877
> Who's Dreamscarred Press?
Dreamscarred Press made its name publishing third-party content compatible with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. You may remember us from such conversions as psionics, or Path of War. Now we're branching out into making our own system.

> How long will playtesting go on for?
Until the damn thing is done. We did testing for more than two years on Path of War: Expanded and that was just a supplement. We want this to be done /right/, and that means treating it with patience.

> What's the game about?
You take on the role of parahumans (there's another word you'd know for this, but it's owned, so...them's the breaks) in a world where evil won its great victory a long time ago. After more than a thousand years of the Endless Night, you - the Dawnborn - have emerged to make one last fight for hope.

> These mechanics look a lot like Mutants and Masterminds
Yep. Our mechanical base is in the OGL content for Mutants and Masterminds, but that's just so we can get a working pitch going. Right now potentially ANYTHING is up for change - ability scores (number and function), powers, skills, how EXP works, literally just about anything except the pitch for the setting is up for critique and alteration.

> Who's heading this up?
The original pitch for Dawnborn was done by Andreas Ronnqvist. Our mechanics lead is Matt Meideiros; I'm our worldbuilding lead. I'll also probably be the guy tossing your feedback to internal and asking you to expand on your critique.

I'm on deck to field further questions, comments, feedback, and discussion. Strap yourselves in, folks, we're in for the long haul - and thanks for stoppin' by.

>>48618877
>>48618945
Neat. Gonna check it out.

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So is this DSP's take on Exalted or Godbound?

Fine, I'll buy that it's better than Exalted 3e. Not a high bar.

But why should I play this over Godbound if I want fantasy superheroes making a dark world a better place?

>>48618945
>parahumans
Hate to point it out, but Worm already has that term as a big thing. Could cause some issues. Unless that's already been handled?

Anyways, looks neat. Curious to see where it goes.

>>48619001
Can't speak to Godbound, as I'm fairly unfamiliar with it. The goal with Dawnborn is to keep things intuitive without losing out on the customization needed to make your own hero; in terms of the wider setting and tone, Dawnborn embraces elements of Bronze Age heroism, where mighty heroes don't just defend society, they create and define it. We're hoping to get the Dominion rules ready for the next packet release so we can show some of those elements (and also get our numbers checked).

>>48619017
I don't believe it'll be troublesome but it's also not used in the setting itself; they're the Dawnborn. I need /some/ way of talking about one of the two major inspiring genres for the thing!

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>>48619046

>Bronze Age heroism, where mighty heroes don't just defend society, they create and define it

>Dominion rules

>d20

>darkness shrouds the land, but then these heroes arise!

In direct competition with Godbound, then. Good luck.

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Oh wow, this isn't just Exalted/Godbound, it's Mutants & Masterminds too. Great job aping its rules.

Christ, this is a Frankenstein's monster.

>>48619063
If y'say so. We'll have to check it out.

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So hold up, why would I play this and not just use M&M 3e in an Exalted/Godbound setting?

You guys LITERALLY have the same fucking stats as M&M.

>>48619139
We're aware. This is, again, the early, eaaaaaaarly alpha. M&M is a starting point from which we intend to refine our mechanics. Matt's aware of a lot of its flaws but more eyes on the numbers can't hurt.

Essentially, given the choice between flailing at it and then finding out we fucked something up, or starting from Step Zero and working with our audience along the way, we chose to start from Step Zero, as we have before with our playtests.

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>>48618877
You realize we're gonna tear the mechanics to shreds for you right?

Time to get to work.
Does it's got what fantasy crave?

Advertising is against the rules, fuck off

>>48619160
>You realize we're gonna tear the mechanics to shreds for you right?

Anything you'll be complaining about is basically just what's already a problem with M&M 3e, sooooooooooooooo...

>>48619174
point...

can we complain anyways?

>>48618877
Alright. Since this is very early in development, I'm gonna toss out three things that I feel all super systems should include, but few actually do in a reasonable manner.

The first one is Minionmancy. You can tell a lot about a game system by how it treats characters that are cohorts, companions, and creatures under the command of the player character. I'm not just talking about having the option either; I'm talking about specialization. Some players enjoy the idea of their character being relatively weak despite being in command of something fierce and powerful. Command of beasts, building robots, summoning demons, that sort of thing.

Second option should be shapeshifters. A lot of supers games, or even things that are supers-lite like FATE drop the ball entirely on this. Transformation is a serious part of the Superheroidea, with a lot of heroes relying on it entirely; classic example being werewolves and some vampires, but also heroes like Martian Manhunter.

And Third, Item creation. It has to matter without being overwhelming if focused on. This is important, because people like making shit and using the shit they make.

So basically what you're telling me is, the much-vaunted new system is not, in fact, a new system, but an old system with a new setting.

I mean, I don't really know what I expected from DSP, but I don't know why this wasn't it.

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>>48619154
>M&M is a starting point from which we intend to refine our mechanics. Matt's aware of a lot of its flaws but more eyes on the numbers can't hurt.

Isn't it a little skeevy to go, "Yeah, this is a game we're going to ask you to give us dollah dollah for. But we'll just use M&M as a base, get you to rip M&M to shreds, house rule M&M based on your suggestions, and then slap a price tag on it"?

>>48619160
>>48619179
Please do. Again, M&M is our starting point for this, and while our mechanics team has an idea of where its weak points are more perspectives are always both welcome and appreciated so we can move in a useful direction.

I mean, we didn't come to 4chan to do this on accident, y'all've torn our mechanics up before.

>>48619154

So you want everyone else to do the work?

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>>48619190
It's not really a new setting.

It's Mutants & Masterminds 3e for system + Exalted/Godbound for setting.

>>48619198
Still need an answer on the second part.

Anyways, yeah, with M&M right now... I'm not really sure what we're supposed to say, here.

>this isn't a new system
to start, though.

So, at least... Exactly where do you want to go from here, what are you hoping to do, and why M&M3 right now?

>>48619193
Replace M&M with 3.5 and you're literally describing the birth of Pathfinder.

>>48618945
>You take on the role of parahumans (there's another word you'd know for this, but it's owned, so...them's the breaks) in a world where evil won its great victory a long time ago. After more than a thousand years of the Endless Night, you - the Dawnborn - have emerged to make one last fight for hope.

gaaaaay

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>>48619189
You know that minionmancy and alternate power sets are THE two most broken-ass shit rules in M&M 3e, right?

http://www.d20herosrd.com/6-powers/effects/effect-descriptions/summon-control

http://www.d20herosrd.com/6-powers/modifiers

Summon and Alternate Effect are the two meccas of min-maxing in M&M 3e.

>>48619228
Yeah, I know. That'd be the point behind "few actually do in a reasonable manner"

Balancing it properly is important.

>>48619211
Eh, looking over the setting, it's not got a whole lot in common with Exalted outside of solar imagery, which is common everywhere.

Can't speak to Godbound, but the vibe I got here was much more 'Doc Savage' than the quasi-immortal god-kings that Exalted characters are by default.

>>48619193
By the time we're done I doubt the two systems are going to be meaningfully similar.

>>48619207
...No?

>>48619215
I'm not entirely certain how to parse the second part of your question, my friend.

We started with M&M 3 because it gives us a jumping-off point and involves math with which the mechanics team is already familiar and that is similar to math the rest of the team has experience with. One of the big goals at the moment is reigning in the insanity inherent to M&M3 without compromising that feeling of superhuman power. We're also looking to refine things with an eye to ease of use and making the system more intuitive for newer players, or players who don't get excited about mechanics in themselves.

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>make our own RPG system
>it's the Pathfinder of Mutants & Masterminds 3e

Lemme get this straight.

DSP's first claim to fame was porting over psionics to Pathfinder.
Then porting over Tome of Battle.
Then porting over Magic of Incarnum and Tome of Magic (truenaming, binding).
And even some direct port of Bastards and Bloodlines.

NOW, you're heartbreakering Mutants & Masterminds for something that Anon is saying is similar to two other settings, Exalted and Godbound.

Does Dreamscarred Press have any originality left? At all?

Like, I know there's nothing original these days, but this isn't even trying to be original.

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>>48619267
Whoops, wrong .gif.

This one's more accurate to DSP.

>>48619259
>By the time we're done I doubt the two systems are going to be meaningfully similar.

Isn't this what Paizo did with Pathfinder? Aren't you using basically the same birthing process?

>show old d20 system to playtesters
>get them to cry about it
>apply house rules
>sell it

>>48619259
Given anons pic I believe it was "does it have jets" or at least vehicles.

Exalted did, if that's any help. They were magic jets, but they did. I mean, carpets kinda suck compared to aerodynamic armored carpets with heavy weaponry

>>48619283
If it's stupid and it works, it isn't stupid, and Paizo proved it works.

Given Gareth's going to be the one working out the setting, I really don't see the problem; it has a similar premise to Godbound, but Gareth isn't the kind of writer that cribs settings. Bits and pieces, sure, but every writer does that, otherwise shit like Power Armor wouldn't be a thing.

>>48619267
Anon is throwing out base level claims without having actually read the work - for one thing, you'll notice the opening post literally said 'WE'RE USING M&M3E AS A PLACEHOLDER' and anon started bitching well before he managed to actually realize things were based on M&M. So he's apparently not so great at reading.

As far as I can see, none of this even remotely feels like Exalted in terms of tone, theme, or style. And certainly not in power-level - the example characters are all, like, mid-tier X-Men level. They'd be blown to bits by Exalted characters.

The vibe I got from this is that it's a setting aimed at pulp heroism in a fantasy setting - not the high-powered over the top stuff Godbound or Exalted assumes as default, but 'you are an exceptional human being in a time that needs exceptional human beings to provide leadership'. It looks like one of the goals is providing robust rules to allow the PCs to direct and safeguard these communities, putting them in a position of power, but also responsibility.

>>48619267
I'm not sure the comparisons to Exalted are necessarily well-founded; I, again, can't speak to Godbound, as I'm wholly unfamiliar.

Having a jumping-off point ain't a bad thing, anon, and I'd rather be up-front about it.

>>48619283
As someone who was part of the initial beta for Pathfinder...let's say it contains a lot of examples of things we'd like to avoid doing.

>>48619287
If we can find an intuitive way to handle it I don't think they're necessarily off the table. Vehicle/mount rules tend to be a /bitch/, though.

>>48619287
Godbound has jets and mechas too. 10 full pages of them.

Godbound: BTFOing Dawnborn since August 2016.

>>48619306
>anon started bitching well before he managed to actually realize things were based on M&M. So he's apparently not so great at reading.

It's true though.

Why does this get to be called "a new system"?

>>48619259
Well let's start here then with the most basic of basics.

Let's assume for now you do want a unique system, and are just using a yardstick with M&M3 because it allows people to go crazy. That sound okay?

First: Let's look at the most basic part: the actual mechanical rolling system. I'll assume the setting can be taken care of as its own thing, but take heed from the failures of Exalted 2nd edition: a setting whose mechanics fight tooth and nail against the fluff every single step of the way ends up a shitass clusterfuck.

d20 system. Bad start there. It's well known for being intensely swingy (due to the basic "1d20+X" format) and requiring large amounts of bonuses and penalties to obtain a semblance of reliability.

Is THAT what you want? If not, before ANYTHING ELSE AT ALL, you gotta decide on an alternative.

>>48619306

>not the high-powered over the top stuff Godbound or Exalted assumes as default, but 'you are an exceptional human being in a time that needs exceptional human beings to provide leadership'

Contrary to popular belief, both Exalted 3e and Godbound only have characters perform *truly* ridiculous feats only during their later XP values.

A starting circle of Solar Exalted or a starting pantheon of Godbound will still struggle against a noble household's forces.

>>48619320
Because it's an alpha playtest using OGL mechanics for ease of use? Because it *does* introduce new gameplay concepts, even if several of them are currently unfinished? This is ground floor level shit, anon. Rome wasn't built in a day.

>>48619338
Haven't played Godbound, but Solar Exalts are still massively powerful even in 3e. The only reason Solar Exalts struggle is because their threats are on a similar scale. Their ability to affect the mundane world is still way out of whack, they just exist in a world where that's not uncommon enough to make them top dog by default.

>>48619311
>if we can find an intuitive way to handle it
DO. SO.
Far too many system completely fall apart at the use of shit they should be built for (notably d20 modern using d20 mecha WHOOPS), and/or force one to just abstract and handwave the whole thing away.

Even those that *do* have them sometimes commit terrible idiocy, like Edge of the Empire's complete lack of growth in the dodging/defenses department for starship combat (in particular starfighters) while gunnery keeps going up and up and up... There's a reason my group just uses the tabletop X-Wing game instead for our star fights.

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>>48619329
This guy has it.

DSP should ditch d20 totally. Hell, even Strike! might do what they want better.

>>48619320
Be...cause it's in alpha-level release right now?

Also:
>"Oh no, another game that uses the imagery of Dawn as a renewal of hope, that MUST mean it's cribbing from Exalted!"

I guess everything that came out prior to Exalted that relied on the imagery of "Dawn" also cribs from it, huh?

>>48619352
>I wanna be a pirate!
>uh, yeah but, we don't actually... pathfinder doesn't do ship things much at all, it just kinda gives a few statblocks and how to make them move
>... your point?
>well, uh, this campaign's completely in-land.
>you said we were on a chain of islands?
>not anymore

>>48619350
>Because it's an alpha playtest using OGL mechanics for ease of use?

That's not an excuse. You can have an alpha playtest with some semblance of original rules.

>Their ability to affect the mundane world is still way out of whack, they just exist in a world where that's not uncommon enough to make them top dog by default.

Except "Dawnborn" is already having the characters fight superpowered enemies from the start too. Just look at that adventure.

>>48619329
D20 math is something the entire team's familiar with, having worked with/fought with/suffered beneath is for years at a time apiece. You're right to call it swingy but I personally think it's salvageable.

That in mind, when I said anything's up for the chopping block I meant it.

And yeah, the fluff thing has bothered me in so many games. Just...just so many. Matt & I are making every effort to work closely so we can design around each other.

Tell me about these mutants and masterminds. I assume it's a d20 system? Do they have levels and hitpoints like D&D does? If a mook without powers shoot a mutant (or mastermind) in the face, will he die?

>>48619368
>Be...cause it's in alpha-level release right now?
Bitch, are you saying that every new RPG that's been alpha-released these days has been a direct port of an old system?

>>48619388
No. By the same token, not every new RPG that's being alpha-released uses a brand-new system either.

>>48619388
There are new mechanics in this playtest, primarily where the Dominion stuff is concerned.

Those rules are unfinished, yes - because *this is a playtest*. A playtest in the alpha stage. M&M3e is a placeholder. A yardstick. A 'well, we've rolled a d20 before, so we know what it looks like when d20 math is out of whack' tool of convenience.

>>48619377
Well, fundamentally dice are the basic engine of the game. They're how everything works and what it wheels on. If you're having it in your game you need to know why you're using d20 instead of any other system.
Ask yourself: Why should you use d20?

>>48619416
>There are new mechanics in this playtest, primarily where the Dominion stuff is concerned.

Except there ARE no Dominion rules, so it's literally just M&M 3e right now.

>>48619430
There actually are, if you read the sidebar. They're extremely loose: "this number represents this concept, this number represents this concept, these things can't happen until you clear away these conditions". Very basic, but they do exist.

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Why not just publish a 3pp supplement for Mutants & Masterminds 3e and sell that?

DSP already sells 3pp supplements.

>>48619377
Roll 3d6. If you roll two or more 6s, that counts as a natural 20. If you roll two or more 1s, that counts as a natural 1.

There. You don't need to change anything about the math, and you've removed the players' need for special dice that not everyone can get.

>>48618877
How do you build a character in this? I'm not sure the book is complete on this. Could you give a run-through on how it would go?

>>48619464
Those are just progress trackers, not dominion management rules.

>>48619377
Adapt the 3d6 bellcurve variant, then. Most of your experience transfers, and the swinginess is largely abated.

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>>48619478
>How do you build a character in this?

http://www.d20herosrd.com/character-creation

>>48619476
>>48619494
Or we could lay out WHY we're using dice and what for rather than just suggest? And what that does for the tone and feel of the game?

>>48619503
Why do I have to look in another system for this?

>>48619511
Because DSP are such hacks that everything they've been successful for is a port of preexisting d20 mechanics.

>>48619482
But they are part of the larger framework that will become the Dominion system, which appears to be a fairly core conceit of what the system wants the players to be doing.

So there's a fairly clear direction here as to how the system is going to differentiate itself over the course of its development.

>>48619478
>>48618877
Also, what is the Advantage list for? It's just given out of the blue with no context or explanation.
Is it similar to feats?
This seems quite terribly written so far.

>>48619476
That...is actually really fuckin' interesting. I'ma sling that at the numbers guy and see what kinda averages we get out of that.

>>48619425
's a fair question. We'll get back to you on that once Matt's awake. Do keep in mind, as I mentioned in the first couple of posts, that I'm the worldbuilding guy/team whip. In a lot of cases I'll be ferrying info back and forth.

>>48619478
CC rules ain't up and running yet; those are one of the chief places in M&M where the madness happens and we'd like to at least attempt to reign that in before we fire both barrels. There's some sample Dawnborn at the end of the packet.

/Hopefully/, character creation starts with a concept ("protective healer", "big guy that got bigger") and then you're able to spend points to bring that concept to life by fleshing out basic abilities & skills, then customizing your power set. I say hopefully 'cause, y'know, mistakes happen. Hence the alpha.

>>48619476
>Odds of a specific number coming up on a d20 = 0.05
>Odds of 2+ of the same number coming up on a 3d6 ≈ 0.060185186

>>48619554
So, you basically just removed content from M&M, renamed it, and showed it to the public as ORIGINAL CONTENT DONUT STEAL? Amazing, classic DSP.

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>>48619478
It's explicitly NOT complete on character creation yet. That's explicitly something they're still working on. That's why example characters are provided.

>>48619554
>I'ma sling that at the numbers guy and see what kinda averages we get out of that.
This is literally just http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/bellCurveRolls.htm with more lenient crit rules.
Your average is 10.5 because that's how numbers work. You'll crit or fumble almost exactly as often as on a d20.

>>48619377
it's something you're familiar with but I also know for a fact that your familiarity with it is of the "gotta go out back and bash gophers with the shovel again mildred" variety.

Let's start with a real conceptual here:
What RANGE of numbers added to the actual capabilities of a character would you like to see?

Here's a bunch of examples of all sorts of rolling systems. Some you'll recognize, some I'm pulling out of my ass, some exist already and I don't know but I'll feel I came up with them until someone makes me feel dumb:

>Bob has 4 levels in Plasma Cannons (a common sight in the bronze age due to all the aliens) and a +2 from his Perception stat. He rolls 4d6 (4 being his skill level), keeping the highest and getting +1 for every 6 after the first, and adds +2 to figure out his total.

>Bob has 4 skill levels in Plasma Cannons (a common sight in the bronze age due to all the enlightenment). He rolls the standard 2d8 and adds +4, which with his roll of 4 and 6, gives him a total of 14.

>Bob has a +4 to attack and a specialization in Plasma Cannons (a common sight in the bronze age due to all the geothermal energy). He rolls 1d12+4, getting a reroll if he rolls a 1 or 2 and only fumbling if the reroll is also a 1.

>Bob has a Might of 4 and 3 skill levels in Plasma Cannons (a common sight in the bronze age due to all the clockwork gods). He rolls his 4d8s and keeps the 3 highest, dealing damage equal to however much he surpasses the target's defenses by

>Bob has 4 in Plasma Cannons (a common sight in the bronze age due to all the starships), and an Accuracy stat of 5. He rolls 4d4 and counts each roll of 5 or lower as a success, because he's just that fucking good.

>Bob has +4 total to hit with Plasma Cannons (a common sight in the bronze age due to all the robots). He rolls 3d8, rerolling it due to basic proficiency if he does not like the result, and adds +4 to the two highest, for a total of 18. Good job bob.

>>48619312
>shilling an unrelated game in a shill thread this hard
Am I even mad? I'm legitimately not sure.

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>The sun doesn't rise at dusk
No shit. This line sounds dumb as hell.

It's already got the shitposting of /pfg/ I feel at home already!

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>>48619604
This may be the greatest post I've ever read in my life.

>>48619579
>forrest and his original material proving him again to be the only competent dsp writer

>>48619637
>shitposting
>pointing out that this isn't actually a new system
I want DSP shills to leave.

>>48619267
>Does Dreamscarred Press have any originality left? At all?
Implying that DSP ever had any originality in the first place.

>>48619678
Her, anon, her. Don't be transphobic towards the best 3pp writer.

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>>48619661
Well I had to do something to thank ye for the kineticist answer over there.

Just kidding. I've not had a single client in 4 hours and am just babbling until I inadvertently doze off.

>>48619696
Right, her. Point still stands.

>>48619604
Your ability to name character impresses me.
I must learn your secret.

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For all the bitterness in this thread, isn't it actually justified to learn that a 'new system' from DSP... isn't really a new system?

>>48619790
new campaign setting more like

>not just using dsp materials and giving us a worthwhile setup

>>48619804
To be fair the DSP materials are pretty stuck in 3.PF. It's mostly just the fluff that could be reusable, but at that point may as well alter it for the setting too.

Not that some of the cool shit should go to waste...

>>48619190
>I mean, I don't really know what I expected from DSP, but I don't know why this wasn't it.
Pretty much everything they've done has been an adaptation of somebody else's work. Psionics, Path of War, they're just updates of systems that already existed. I don't know why you didn't expect this either.

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>>48619816
>>48619846
Wouldn't they ideally want to kludge M&M 3e into compatibility with their Pathfinder products?

I'll admit, it'd be sick if we could have initiators in M&M.

So yeah. It's fine to take ideas from elsewhere, but let's at least make sure the basic rolling system has the feel and range you want out of your system.

More dice increase the range a lot, but also reliability.
Bigger dice increase the range a lot less at a time, but do very little for the reliability.
"Exploding Dice" systems open the results up to the skies, yet often only add very little to the actual average roll.

The other part of it is what you want "being good at something" to mean. Silhouette for example straight up gives you more d6s, but doesn't add them up (that's actually the first Bob up there) normally: The main advantage of skill in that system is a massive boost in reliability and decrease in fumbles - something the d20 system tends to get kinda stupid with since there's always a 5% chance of fucking up royally.

"Being good" at something could mean more successes, greater successes, a higher number, more numbers... there's so many ways...

>In addition, while you have different action-types you can perform (in any order) you cannot intersperse actions between one another unless you have an advantage that allows it.
Wording issue here: as it stands, this means I can't take a free action, then a move action, then a standard action, because that would be "interspersing" a move action in between a free and a standard action. It should say something like "You can't take one action while you are currently resolving another action." or the like.

Can I run this setting better in Strike!?

Going to 4chan for feedback over a design draft is a terrible idea and I have not the slightest clue what made you guys at DSP (as much as I kind of like you) decide it was good for this.

>>48619955
Probably because it's one of several avenues for exactly this that they watch.

>>48619955
More or less this >>48619987.

>*If an incapacitated target fails a resistance check against Damage they are “dying”. Next turn, success =
no longer dying but still stable. Failure=dead.
What kind of check is this? Toughness? What's the DC? The DC of the last attack to hit them? Plus, one chance to live or die is not very heroic...

>>48619955
Where else are they gonna go, a hugbox?
We might be insulting asspies, but we at least say it when there's something we don't like.

>>48620000
Christ, even 5e has three.

>>48620000
Noted, passed to Mechanics.

>>48619936
Definitely gonna be avoiding exploding dice. As much fun as they are at times, they're kinda...they're not /reliable/. And when it happens it doesn't always feel like the awesome event it should be, especially when you end up exploding on a check that feels less consequential (extended research, a stealth roll, etc).

>>48620025
>And when it happens it doesn't always feel like the awesome event it should be, especially when you end up exploding on a check that feels less consequential (extended research, a stealth roll, etc).
So what you're saying is, you want action points?

>>48620183
...Y'know, maybe. Thought hadn't crossed my mind but that idea or something similar wouldn't be a bad way to model those moments of heroic exertion, determination, or righteous fury.

I'm gonna be AFK for a bit. Matt may be on before I get back. Do have /some/ mercy on the poor man. Feel free to toss in questions or feedback in the meantime.

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>>48620183
>>48620247
You mean M&M 3e's victory points?

http://www.d20herosrd.com/home/victory-points

>>48620247
One big annoyance is the tendency towards "per day" or "per adventure" of most systems action points/dice/etc.

how about instead something more of a 'momentum' set of boons, where the benefits or penalties are gained and lost towards one's next action; it can reset by encounter/scene.

This also gives you three 'states' to play with any luck-based things in: up, middle and down.

So, say a critical's main effect is whatever the weapon does on a critical AND some kind of boon towards your next action (so, for attacks, criticals are a bit less "mega-damage killshot" and a bit more "a great hit sets the poor fucker up for your next one too"). as long as you keep having above-average successes you keep in your upswing.

Likewise, a downswing (fumble) screws up your rhythm; your stay off-balance or otherwise impeded slightly as long as you keep continuing to fail by more than a certain margin (margin will depend on dice types).

This means you also get plenty of room for abilities that capitalize-on, reverse, counteract or otherwise affect your current luck status.

>>48620571
PS; This also means things like 'action dice' or other special stacks could simply be instant upswings (or downswings on someone else perhaps).

>>48620571
>One big annoyance is the tendency towards "per day" or "per adventure"

Is there any way to do "per session" abilities and still make them work?

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>>48620633
can, but often badly.
>This is just a continuation of last session, anon, it hasn't refreshed
>This is just a continuation of last session, anon, it's still the same one.

>Yeah; three dungeons, six weeks of downtime, another four dungeons and an overland battle, stop the lich, you know, ONE adventure.

>"have we been expending six of our per-session action dice every fight?"
>"yeah dude, different sessions"

>>48620633
it makes the abilities and thus classes vastly different depending on if a session is 3 encounters and five hours long, or if a session's a single talk with one NPC and maybe a short fight and just an hour every week.

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>>48620672
>>48620682
Why not have it refresh after each MAJOR encounter?

13th Age does refresh after four moderate encounters.

>>48620755
>goblins are a major encounter anon
>three cyberliches aren't a major encounter anon

It's best to avoid the vague adjectives.

>>48620755

Because it still becomes "okay there were 8 fights between those two major encounters, and only 1 fight between this one and the next major encounter"

The only reset mechanic that doesn't force the GM to pace his sessions and story a certain way is per-encounter.

>>48620801
Wouldn't you still have "That doesn't count as an encounter"?

>>48620672
>that pic
fucking nice.

I guess my biggest problem with M&M was the damage system. Randomly your jaw would become glass and you'd be out for the fight. Sometimes you are an indestructible juggernaut. It felt too random.

>>48620902
at least THAT generally gets properly defined.

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Isn't M&M 3e's measurements table kinda fucked?

http://www.d20herosrd.com/home/ranks-and-measures

A 0 Strength human can pick up a 50 pound object and toss it 30 feet. Bull fucking shit.

>>48621261
0 is an average comicbook human average rating. Have you seen what Mary Jane can fucking do sometimes even without superpowers?

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>>48621261
http://www.d20herosrd.com/3-abilities

>7 = peak human

>peak human Strength can lift 3 tons and throw it 30 feet

What kind of world is this?

>>48621298
yes.

>>48621298
I guess the tables are the first things that need changing huh? Either that or fluff dawnborn humans as baseline decently super.

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>>48621261
>>48621298
>0 Strength human can pick up 1.5 pound object and hurl it 900 feet
>accurately enough to use as an attack

Damn, are average humans in comic books this impressive?

>>48621401
They tend to be pretty loose on physics, yes.

>>48620786
Okay, smartass, after every encounter with an as-yet-undefined "this is how tough this encounter is, mechanically speaking" stat greater than the party's average "this is how much this character can handle, mechanically speaking" stat.

Presenting the idea in a vague way because not all the game's mechanics are known yet is not the same as having vague wording in the final version.

>>48621526
see
>>48620801

All that results in is the party hoarding all their per-major-encounter abilities until an actual major encounter, because they have no idea when the next one will be.

>>48620915
Yeah, I'm a much bigger fan of Attack vs. Static Defense, then Static Damage. It gets rid of the non-d20 dice just like Toughness rolls do, but at the same time you get heroes that don't randomly go down to a single hit from a throwaway minion, and it cuts down on rolling.

>>48621526
>Presenting the idea in a vague way because not all the game's mechanics are known yet is not the same as having vague wording in the final version.
What thread have *you* been reading?

>>48621298
>What kind of world is this?
The awesome kind.

>>48621526
Someone got triggered.

You say "it's not the same" except under numerous systems that's exactly what has happened. To warn against that is only reasonable.

And even your sarcastic suggestion is rife with the exact problem I mentioned, for a different reason.

Take Pathfinder for example. The stat you are referring to would, effectively, be "CR".

And look how well THAT turned out. Some parties are running around chewing through CR+4 encounters many times a day even though that's supposed to be a major bossfight. Some parties can barely handle CR-1. By the 'suggestion' you made you'd recover after set encounter difficulty... Except that could literally be "every group of mooks" for one party and "never" for another.

Choosing the basic level of "activity cycle" one should expect from a party in this system is *NOT* some stupid detail you worry about much later. You figure that shit out while putting up the walls, not while you're painting the nursery.

>>48619476
>special dice that not everyone can get
You realize the internet is a thing, right? And you can buy special dice from it even if there isn't a gaming store in a thousand miles?

>>48618945
>You take on the role of parahumans (there's another word you'd know for this, but it's owned, so...them's the breaks) in a world where evil won its great victory a long time ago. After more than a thousand years of the Endless Night, you - the Dawnborn - have emerged to make one last fight for hope.

That premise is...not good. It sounds like a Saturday morning cartoon. Dawnborn is a really bad name, too, people will be embarrassed to talk about this game.

>>48619383
>Tell me about these mutants and masterminds. I assume it's a d20 system?
It's a superhero system based on d20 system, yes. You can see the rules here: http://www.d20herosrd.com/

>Do they have levels and hitpoints like D&D does?
No. Instead it has something called "power level" which determines the general scale of adventure, but isn't intended to start at 1 and doesn't necessarily go up like it would in a normal D&D game. There's also no hit points: Instead when you're hit you make a saving throw(with scaling penalties based on how much damage you've already taken) to determine whether you're hurt and how badly.

>If a mook without powers shoot a mutant (or mastermind) in the face, will he die?
Can't be bothered to check, but I believe actually dying is not something that happens just because you were shot in the face: like the genre it's meant to emulate, your characters aren't supposed to die all that often - and that's assuming the mook can actually hurt you with a gun and you're not bulletproof or have superhuman reflexes to dodge the shot at point-blank range or something.

>>48621867
If you honestly give a shit what complete strangers think of how you spend your time, you may have picked the wrong hobby.

>>48618877
>M&M3e based
Hope you can make something playable out of it, and it doesn't run your game. I literally got so feed up with m&m3 that I gave my book away after determining I'd rather pass on a campaign than play/run m&m again.

Chargen is fun /flexible, but the hp/damage system means fights drag on forever, status effect abilities don't combine with our interact with the rest of the game, and because of how the caps work, all the characters play the same, with a strong, medium, and weak attack, which they choose between depending what they're fighting.

I might quite enjoy some manner of d20 gurps with degrees of success baked in. But hopefully it won't be the mechanically bland garbage you're starting with.

>>48619311
>Vehicles.
>point buy build anything system
Do like the gurps players do and design the vehicle as a character.
Unlike gurps, you should have solid rules for translating characters and powers into new equipment.

You should then use those rules to build any vehicles or equipment you include.

>>48622193
Not even strangers. If I tell my friends that we should play Dawnborn, they'll be like "that Skyrim expansion?"

>>48622192
I believe to kill someone, you have to devote a whole turn to finishing off an unconscious character. Haven't played in a while so I am unsure.

>>48622254
If talking about an RPG causes you to become embarrassed in front of your friends, you may have picked the wrong friends.

Either that or you're exaggerating to make your point seem valid. I leave the determination of which is the case, as an exercise for the audience.

I've tried M&M and wasn't a fan, so I think I'll give this one a pass for now.

>>48618877
I've never played any of these systems, sell me.

Your name makes me think more Exalted or high fantasy than Superheroes though.

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Why is it okay for DSP to go "Uhhhh, we don't have a new system, just go and use these M&M 3e rules and write patches to them, mmmmkay?", but when 2hu did the same thing for Spheres of Power it was literally Hitler?

That was some nice discussion while I was out.

>>48620269
Huh. 's like fate points and action points had a kid. I gotta ask mechanics if they'd had any thoughts on using these or something like them (again, I'm worldbuilding/the guy with the whip).

>>48620571
Fate's way of handling this is nice but also fairly idiosyncratic, so that's probably a no-go. We'll have to devote some thought to it, esp. since various forms of duration for refreshes can be interpreted vaguely or unhelpfully. Still, you've got a solid point.

>>48620755
We'd need a solid metric of defining such a thing.

>>48620915
Hrm. Is that an idea with Toughness checks as a concept, or just with how their math works? I kinda like the abstracted damage at first blush but this precise problem is why the Scarecrow has that sidebar too...

>>48621261
>>48621273
>>48621298
>>48621326
>>48621393
>>48621401
>>48621443
Psybomb (Mister Jake Karpel) will be by at some point in the near future to talk about this. He's our hardcore numbers jockey; you may remember him from our other project as the guy who runs damage sims and aids in stress-testing optimization.

>>48621553
God I hate this feeling so much, from both sides of the fence. It's frustrating as a player and annoying as a GM.

>>48621559
Retaining hit points or something equivalent? I dunno though, with customization of powers being a goal it feels like it'd be pretty easy to fuck the damage math one way or another.

>>48621867
's a bit goofy, but comics (and fantasy, for that matter) are often a bit goofy too.

>>48622244
Here's hopin', my friend. The vehicle idea is fairly cool but I worry because GURPS tends to be a bit...zoomed-in? Still, no reason we can't learn from it.

>>48622442
Fair enough. Drop by after a few passes go through and see what'cha think?

>>48622792
Because they generally end up on good stuff, eventually. I mean, yeah, most of the stuff is based on stuff others did, but they have the decency to:

1) cite sources
2) learn from the previous mistakes
3) make things FUN eventually, before asking for money for it.

That's basically why they still get my cash, and one of the only reasons I am in PF

>>48622871
>learn from the previous mistakes
>Path of War: Expanded damage machines
How about "no."

>>48623002
>Memes

>>48622515
It's meant to have that feeling of high fantasy, aye. When Andreas first pitched this to me (claiming it was an anonymous submission, the punk) it was pitched as combining the two genres - that is, fantasy and comic heroes. The two don't mesh as neatly as you might think either; they have vastly different priorities when it comes to ideas like tone, details, and sometimes even power scale.

Dawnborn's meant to strike that balance, to give you the chance to define and explore a fantastic world in which you and those like you rise against darkness. Players have the chance not just to define what kind of hero they want to be, but what their home is like and how they shape the civilization they help create. I'm definitely pushing to be able to show that off on the next packet update so we can give you an idea of what we're thinking and why, in addition to addressing some of the suggestions made in the thread thus far.

>>48619377
If you want a curve, 2d8+1d6 gives the same shape over a 20 number span of that matters to you. Keep in mind the average roll on that is 12.5 instead of 10.5, and so dcs would be two points higher than normal.

And if you want 5% crit and fail chances, options include:
>3d6 3/4/5=botch, 16/17/18= crit.
>2d8+1d6 3-6=botch, 19-22=crit.

Id suggest something less swingy than a single die.

I've tried both in d&d, they worked fine and were less swingy. It did mean that things with say +5 ac vs your attack are hard though. You'd have a 9.26% chance of hitting them instead of a 25% chance. Bonuses are a bigger deal than juat +5%.

The odds of double 6s on 3d6 is 7.41%, I believe.

You'd have to rethink how you handle degrees of success though. Maybe determine what your default is (by comparing an average roll vs target number) and then modify it so each number rolled above 11 or below 10 (3d6) or above 13 and below 12(2d8+1d6) modifies degrees of success.

Using 2d8+1d6, your odds of rolling 13+=50%. 14+=39.84%(-10.16%), 15+=30.21%(-9.63%), 16+=21.61%(-8.6%), 17+=14.58%(-7.03%), etc.

Ie: on 2d8+1d6, a +1 makes you 10% more likely to succeed on an average +1.5 dc task. With a +5 you succeed 50% of the time at tasks you could only handle 9.11% of the time if you had no bonus. (a +5 under 2d8+1d6 is like a +8 under 1d20).

Comparing the bonuses on 1d20 vs 2d8+1d6, roughly:
+2=+1
+4=+2
+6=+3
+7=+4
+8=+5
+9=+6
+10=+7 through +10


Here. Check it out.
http://anydice.com/program/9052

>>48623010
>What is the zealot?
>What is Elemental Flux?

>>48619377
You are wrong. 1d20+mods cannot be fixed. Many have tried, none have succeeded. It isn't a worthy challenge regardless.

1d20 is ALWAYS going to be swingy because you're only rolling one dice with a large range of possibilities.

Mods will ALWAYS slow down the game because in order to smooth out the 1d20 you have to find, calculate, remember and then add/subtract a lot of discrete values for every roll. Attempts to limit this by using "categories" of modifiers that cannot overlap, like Pathfinder does, only make it slower as players try to remember which modifier takes up which category, which categories are relevant to the roll and how they interact.

Ditch 1d20+mods. Just do it. Your team's familiarity with a shitty mechanic isn't worth putting out another broken game.

>>48622849
Make the chargen flexible enough that you can define any entity or thing you can add to an entity, like a dude. Or a bus. Or a gun. Have a price conversion system for entities as cohorts or equipment (gurps has it for cohorts but not for equipment).

But yeah. Toughness checks suck.

And again, status effect abilities and attacking attributes doesn't interact with attacking hp at all.

It could be cool if hp was maybe simply the str+con+optional toughness "feat", and if someone reduces your str they're also reducing your hp.

I'd like that.

Or rather

Str con dex agi int wis cha
Fort=str+con=hp
Ref=dex+agi=dodging endurance
Will=Int+wis=mental hp
Chax2=mp, refreshes after a 5 minute rest.

>>48619267
DSP hasn't done Binding though.

>>48623335
See their Psionics Augmented: Occult.

>>48623313
Ref=dodging hp
Once you get too tired to dodge you start getting hit.
Will=mental hp
As more will affecting attacks hit you the weaker your mental endurance is.
Fort=hp
Mp=chaX2

Attacking attribites through poison or magic does a small amount of damage as well as side effects.

This is golden.

Im going to use this myself in my fantasy heartbreaker ive been working on.

>>48623313
Not a bad idea, that.
Perhaps through an 'effects-based' version.

Well things don't need to get as mathy as the vehicle design rules of Silhouette (well it's not actually hard but you *do* need a calculator unless you can do cubic roots in your head), but "This is this many points, or that much cash" could be a good setup.

>This is a Vehicle. The bigger sizes and potential need for additional controllers even though some of those controllers may be automation tossed into the vehicle's points value, ensure that it is very significantly cheaper than if those exact same abilities were given to a human-sized piece of equipment, or, worse yet, made an integral part of a human character.

>This gun's damage, plus the cube of its range, with the combined total multiplied by its accuracy, gives us a base cost and size to work with. Making it bigger or smaller will help the cost. We can miniaturize or we can use older parts, but the former will cost you.

>>48623413
Maybe you could dodge psionic/mental attacks too. (and you can see them, like in comic books)

>>48623236
A PoW:E class, and a PoW:E discipline that are actually pretty good, and don't do anything broken?

>>48623432
>jimmy wants his character to have some sort of psychic grenade item that attacks everyone's int score within range.
>no such item exists.
>jimmy builds it as a power, uses the rules to price it as a small expendable and losable item.
>the game goes on!

>>48623439
Damage is too high in the original pow (but not powe) up until level 6. People have done the math. DSP had said they're going to fix it some time down the road.

Fortunately, Since i typically start at 5 or 6, i see no reason to give a shit.

>>48623432
>>48623521
>>48623313
See this? This I could get behind, it gives a lot of flexibility and lets a group make anything they want without needing to pull out extra sets of stapled-on rules.

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>>48623413
Hm... so your stats directly... Similar to Warmahordes, then, or Mongoose Traveller.

We don't have to use the shitty 3-18 range either. Battlelords did perfectly fine with 01-140+.

>Bob has 38 Reflex, 79 Will and 11 Fort. He is attacked by Plasma Cannons (a common sight in the bronze age due to all the aliens), which are physical attacks (thus affecting Reflex and Fortitude).
>Abstracting the minutiae of combat through the system, we find that the cannon hits and deals R10+4d4RF of High Energy damage. That's an automatic 10 Reflex due to the mere proximity to such a weapon's shots being enough to scorch the area, and 4d4 Reflex and Fortitude to those actually hit. Any overflow from dodging (reflex) will continue into actual wounds (fortitude).

>As indicated above, the reflex damage was applied first, ensuring a high likelihood of damaging or killing a target. Were this a Glue-Shot instead, it could have been 2d4RF+10R, meaning that additional reflex is only removed AFTER any physical damage is calculated, as the glue begins to stick the perp in place

Meanwhile mental attacks could go for will then fortitude (the nosebleeds,etc) and a different stat, based on the "casting tradition" of whatever uses MP/TP/PP/IP/DSP/WP/ETCP could govern the recovery rate: perhaps one cultivates power by being one with the universe and regens Wisdom per turn/encounter/whatever, while another fuels his constitution-based power with numerous large meals.

>>48623439
Christ, have you SEEN a destruction zealot at like, level 9?

Elemental Flux is fucking bonkers.

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Why is it okay for DSP to basically crowdsource their RPG's foundations and core mechanics to internet forums, and then charge money for their game?

>>48623717
Well, would YOU pay a few bucks to have your fifty cats herded and run through editing and layout?

It's not 'okay' nor 'not-okay'. It just is.

>>48623717
Do you not know how alphas or playtests work, anon? They're not charging money until the mechanics are actually settled and properly made, at the moment this is the stage of "what do people want out of the system and how can we give them what they want". Or are you too stupid to actually know how creating things for a group works, and just assume that everyone is an Artiste that works completely alone and only reveals their masterpiece at the very end?

>>48623762
>Do you not know how alphas or playtests work, anon?

Video games in alpha usually have an original foundation to show.

They don't ask the internet, "Hey guys, could you maybe code the foundation of an engine for us?"

That's fucking absurd.

>>48623044
>pitched as combining the two genres - that is, fantasy and comic heroes.
Do you mind expanding on this? Specifically, what do you mean by "comic heroes" and what elements of them you want to integrate with fantasy?
I ask because, to me, the difference between superheroes and fantasy is just the modern setting and the costumes. Lot's of fantasy has superpowered heroes. There's a reason why there are superheroes inspired by mythical heroes like Thor and Hercules. There's really not much difference between a demigod and a superhero. So I'm wondering what comic book elements you're talking about combining with fantasy, besides just the powers. What will make Dawnborn's fantasy superheroes different from typical fantasy adventurers with magic powers.

>>48623762
There's a difference between showing a new game with basics done, and just copying the basics from an existing game and calling it playtest.

>>48623807
>>48623834
There is an original foundation, M&M. Personally I think the foundation is flawed and needs reworked completely, but there IS a foundation from which to work off of. And I'd much rather a company show the barebones and ask "what do you want on the skeleton guys" rather than them making a shitty game with no assistance from the community and then ignoring any criticisms from said community, which is what I'm seeing out of Exalted 3e and Pathfinder.

>>48623717
Giving feedback is not the same thing as designing the game for them. There's a little bit more to designing and publishing an rpg than just mouthing off on 4chan.

>>48623860
It's not ORIGINAL foundation, that's the whole point. It's a foundation DSP took from Green Ronin Publishing. Big fucking difference.

Well, you can tell Andreas he effectively made DSP commit suicide, because this was your big first impression and he blew it on pushing something nobody on either side wanted. You're fucked and /tg/ is never going to forget this. Remember how Cerulean Seas was a pretty great setting that was well received and the company behind it still shut down, to the point that I can't remember your name? Dawnborn got announced before it had literally anything original or worth showing off, and now it's dead because you listened to Andreas and its corpse is going to drag down the rest of your company.

I'm sure you could eventually make it workable, but that won't matter because you're never going to manage to have another first impression with this.

tl;dr: Congrats on listening to some idiot and dooming your entire company.

>>48622849
>Hrm. Is that an idea with Toughness checks as a concept, or just with how their math works? I kinda like the abstracted damage at first blush but this precise problem is why the Scarecrow has that sidebar too...
Basically, depending on the power level and toughness of something, fights either become long slugfests or end dangerously quick.

If you go with multiple die that are not d20s, the fights might just all become slugfests. I played high toughness characters every time in M&M, and things only hurt me if I rolled really low (below 9) or if the enemy was a higher power level. If my chances of rolling low went down, my character would be even more unstoppable.

>>48623914
But DSP has already been doing this for a while.

They've already ported over psionics, Tome of Battle, Magic of Incarnum, truenaming, etc.

What's one more ported system?

>>48619259
Is there any piticular part of the rules that you want some math done on?

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>You take on the role of parahumans (there's another word you'd know for this, but it's owned, so...them's the breaks) in a world where evil won its great victory a long time ago. After more than a thousand years of the Endless Night, you - the Dawnborn - have emerged to make one last fight for hope.

Sooooooo...

Why CAN'T I already do this in DSP-only Pathfinder? I mean, let's go over DSP's classes.

Initiators: Belluspex, harbinger, medic, mystic, stalker, warder, warlord, zealot

Psionicists: Aegis, dread, marksman, psion, psychic warrior, soulknife, tactician, vitalist, wilder

Veilweavers: Daevic, guru, vizier

Tzocatl: Advocate, warspeaker

Aren't these enough to make basically any superhero you could possibly want?

>>48623986
Well, for starters, all this time they've been hyping it up as an original system, not just M&M in a fantasy setting, while all of those were, from the start "Yeah, Paizo ain't going to do shit so we'll port this subsystem from 3.5"

>>48624101
Because Pathfinder's a terrible thing to limit yourself to?

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>>48624145
Are you saying that M&M's any better? M&M's balance makes Pathfinder look sane.

>>48624173
Now's a good chance to push the system away from M&M to something more balanced, then!

You can do it!

>>48624173
To be fair, almost any system with entirely point-based character generation has high potential for broken characters. As I recall, with GURPS you can make a wizard capable of destroying the visible universe for some ridiculously low amount of points, for example. And superhero genre is another thing that easily lends itself to ridiculously broken characters, since supers can range from Daredevil(good hearing, no real superpowers) to Spider-Man(super strength, genius-level intellect, basically untouchable because of his spidersense) to Dr. Strange(capable of doing all kinds of crazy stuff because magic doesn't really have any clear limitations in the setting). Even if they're different "levels" of characters, you're still almost obliged to have them able to be represented in supers system.

So while M&M might be broken, it at least has good excuses.

At its most basic level, a few things need to happen.

Damage be smoothed out. Less die rolls please. Less swingy.

Power arrays need to be not retardedly cheap.

Minions not be overpowered.

Power scale be toned down. You become able to fly at mach 4 while lifting mountains too quickly.

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>>48624280
>>48624348
Marvel Heroic Roleplaying is an amazing system that ACTUALLY MANAGES DECENT BALANCE for superheroes, even across heroes of decent "levels."

Worlds in Peril is another balanced supers game.

M&M is dogshit.

>>48624429
>ACTUALLY MANAGES DECENT BALANCE for superheroes, even across heroes of decent "levels."

Yeah, by making every power exactly the same. "Is it a d8, a d10, or a d12?"

Not hard to balance a system with exactly one moving part.

>>48623637
I have been thinking on that idea. Here are a combination of what i was originally thinking and some thoughts on what else could be done with it.

6 stats (which i will rename now to avoid unexpected connotations)
>power
>resilience
>precision
>speed
>cunning
>finesse

Each pair, in that order, combines into something.
Power + resilience for fortitude.
Precision + Speed for agility.
Cunning + finesse for willpower.

Any of the stats or pairs could be attacked directly.

Any of the pairs could be rolled, as well.

And then a mechanic like shadowruns magic would strain them, causing damage to them.

But a regular attack would damage your fortitude only, not your agility (though an attack could be made that would damage both).

If you did every possible pair you would have 21 stats, 15 if you cant double up. That could have potential as a game mechanic too.

>>48624775
I'd like to kill the sacred cow of six stats altogether. We don't need six stats. The only reason we keep using six stats is tradition. It's a stupid tradition. Four is plenty.

>>48624775
>6 stats (which i will rename now to avoid unexpected connotations)
Oh boy, here comes "dex is king"

>power
Oh well here's our strength analogue.

>resilience
And Con...

>precision
Here's the dex stat, isn't it.

>speed
Oh, wait you split it up. Okay.

>cunning
Int with a bit of wisdom, nice.

>finesse
Wait, is this the social stat? Or is it a more mental part of dex? Both?

>>48624353
Die rolls are fine when they're not so swingy.

>>48623968
>an idea is pitched.
>ogl base
>the version of ogl chosen needs work and rebalance
>idea may have been pitched too early, not much original to show other than a broad setting idea.
Agreed.

>this is definitive suicide for the company
I dont follow your reasoning.

>>48624933
Well in this 6+3 setup it would be the diplomacy/socializing stat, but probably not the lying stat.

If you were to combine them in more than 3 ways you might get other neat stuff though, like power+finesse for charisma, finesse plus precision for grace(ballet), cunning plus power for strategy.

Yes, ive been playing with ideas around this subject since i had the idea two hours ago.

>>48624960
The setting idea is honestly dildoes.

It's nothing I couldn't already do with DSPfinder.

It's also kind of close to Exalted and Godbound in overall theme.

>>48625117
I'm only passingly familiar with exalted, and not at all familiar with godbound.

But even if their idea is literally just "were going to make a super hero system that is flexible, without the massive balance problems of m&m or complexity of gurps, and without it just being a fate style game where you play more as a story editor with a favorite character than actually as your character", and we figured if we use m&m as a starting point it will be easier to balance than starting from scratch, that could be a product worth buying.

I'd need to be damn confident it was an improvement though.

>>48624960
New campaign settings are an enormous risk to publishing companies. As I mentioned, Cerulean Seas was a successful setting as they go and it still bankrupted the parent company. Publishing an unsuccessful setting is unlikely to fare much better for DSP, and given that about 30 or so people posted about how bad it was, not counting all the lurkers, DSP is going to have one hell of an uphill struggle getting their product to sell well. Especially since some people already seem to think they're a bunch of unoriginal, talentless hacks.

>>48625259

Considering there are only 36 posters in the thread I wouldn't say that 30 people all commented on how shit the setting is.

Seems fine to me. Could do with some extrapolation but it's not bad.

>>48623968
I think you might be overestimating both the importance of first impressions and your own capacity for clairvoyance.

>>48624775
>>48624897
I think we could probably trim it down to four, yeah.

Physical power (Strength, toughness)
Physical finesse (Speed, precision)
Mental learned (Knowledge, discipline)
Mental inherent (Attention, personality)

>>48625345
Certainly possible, but the point of the thread is to get opinions. Sorry if it seemed like I thought everything I said were 100% trufax.

>>48625342
A disturbingly large proportion, at least.

>>48625259
But so far it's just a setting idea. If the setting isn't worth making, what's wrong them from just dropping it and making a different setting?

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What makes this a "superheroes" game?

Like, the premise would work basically the exact same damn way if it was "fantasy heroes" instead of "parahumans," wouldn't it?

>>48625371
You could do that too i suppose. I personally think 4 is on the low side.

>>48625392
Nothing. The problems are all the sunk costs they've already invested over the months and the possible hit to their reputation.

>>48625374
For a first draft, there's a lot that's going to be shit. We'd be remiss in sucking their cock if they put up stuff that doesn't deserve cocksucking.

At least there's something worth discussing, instead of it being entirely dismissable.

Having said that, I'm getting conflicting things out of the opening spiel on the website.

>>48623313
Mm. Noted, passed to Mechanics.

>>48623335
>>48623355
You mean where we did an alteration to the Medium class that Paizo published? Kinda off-topic, though.

>>48623413
Hrm. I'm not personally sold on HP as a mechanic here yet but, then, I'm also not the mechanics department.

>>48623521
There's rules in M&M's OGL for this kinda thing and it's definitely something we wanna be able to create. In terms of the worldbuilding, sorcerers are more engineers and a lot less wizards; they help power technology and smooth over technical difficulties but you won't see them rain fire from the sky or throw you into another dimension.

>>48623637
Man though, that's a lotta rolling and tracking right up front. There's /gotta/ be a more elegant way to handle that...

>>48623819
There /are/ a lot of similarities, to the point where I too thought the idea of combining them was pointless. Both genres involve extraordinary people in conflict with evil, often of great scope (threatening their city, nation, world, dimension, etc). As you've noted, you see incredible powers, training, or both on display in both genres.

Where they start to diverge is in details like tone and focus. Fantasy, for instance, often wants to be taken seriously, generally in the interests of immersion or verisimilitude. Comics, on the other hand, are often at least a bit hammy and quite often go Full-Blown Ham, especially with things like character names and designs. Fantasy stories often handle logistics directly, such as travel, wealth, disguises, etc, where comic stories often gloss such logistics unless they're dramatically interesting - that is, no one asks how the billionaire inventor can keep spending money like water to create gadgets. The villains of fantasy stories are often distant and unrelated to the heroes, or have relations that are treated as esoteric revelations; the villains of comic stories are often intensely personal, and also recurring.

(Cont.)

>>48618877
>You’ve read this story. You already know how it goes. There is a land – maybe a bright and joyous land, maybe an okay land populated by well-meaning people, maybe even a bad land that, nonetheless, does not deserve to die, and it is threatened by the rising tides of darkness. Heroes rise to fight back against the dying of the light. Love is won and lost, sacrifices are made, and evil is defeated.

>You know this story too: an ordinary man or woman finds themselves gifted with extraordinary power. Driven by virtue, or loss, or a sense of justice, they take that power and set about protecting the weak, helping the helpless, and facing threats that no ordinary human could stand against. They become heroes, by accident or by choice, and learn about the weighty responsibilities of their great power.

>The Dawnborn Roleplaying Game is both of those stories, and it is also neither of them.

>>48625537

>The world of Rasa was threatened. It was besieged by the tides of darkness, mustered at the command of unnamed and unknown evils. And those evils won. Rasa’s heroes were scattered and lost, its civilizations destroyed, and the world entire brought into the grip of the Darkness Without and lulled to sleep. Now humanity exists in scattered Dominions, city-states with little or even no contact with or knowledge of one another, protected by Dusk Shields through which no evil can pass. It is survival, but it is not hope. Every year, humanity slides a little closer to giving up, to surrendering to the Darkness and joining its world in sleep.

>But the sun does not rise at dusk. It rises after the long night, and in this Endless Night, in the midst of the Darkness Without, have come the Dawnborn – men and women blessed with a power they do not understand, that shines with a glory the sleeping world has forgotten. They embody hope that good can rise again out of evil, and the rising of the sun that will wake Rasa from its sleep, if they can carry the weight of their power and triumph against a world in the grip of the Darkness Without. The Dawnborn face the challenge of bringing hope to the hopeless and creating a society that will forever be molded in their image, for good or for ill.

>>48625466
>Fantasy stories often handle logistics directly, such as travel, wealth, disguises, etc, where comic stories often gloss such logistics unless they're dramatically interesting

Logistics are basically never an issue in Pathfinder because of Rings of Sustenance and utility spells/powers.

>The villains of fantasy stories are often distant and unrelated to the heroes, or have relations that are treated as esoteric revelations; the villains of comic stories are often intensely personal, and also recurring.

GMing, not system.

Tell me again why I'm not just using DSP Pathfinder?

>>48625466
People tend to stay dead in fantasy stories; heroes often come back in comic stories. And so on, and so forth. Those little details start to matter a lot more in the context of presenting an RPG, especially since they translate to certain emphasis in mechanics. A lot of fantasy RPGs have combat exploration, for example - your classic "dungeon crawl" - where I've yet to find a comic-inspired RPG that emphasizes the same thing. This is the big reason me & Matt are living in each other's pockets; we've gotta figure out where to emphasize what, and when we have to do just one or the other vs. being able to do both.

>>48623968
Wew lad. 'Some idiot' is one of our co-owners; he's the boss, he calls the shot. And it's not like we don't have others to learn our lessons from either.

>>48623976
Thank you. I don't have a lot of personal experience with M&M (see: reasons I'm not Mechanics); I'll pass it along. I believe Matt's expressed similar concerns...

>>48624076
From the sounds of things, various ways we can alter our probability curve. The team's reacted pretty positively to the idea of using 3d6 rather than a D20, though we're still waiting on Matt to get awake. Dude keeps weird hours for a Canadian.

>>48624173
Oddly, it's easier to work with. Aside from some of the problems already being fairly famous, the thing about modular systems is it's easy to cut problematic parts until you figure out if you want to save them.

>>48624353
My other concern with minions is table slowdown, which is always a bit of a bitch. But yeah, streamlining's a priority here.

>>48624775
>>48624897
>>48624933
>>48625371
We're kinda looking into cutting down to 4 or 5 stats, partially because in M&M it's often just not mathematically worth it to invest in your ability scores.

>>48625608
I'm sorry, what gave you the impression that I was comparing to Pathfinder and not the trends of fantasy in literature?

>>48625633
>Thank you. I don't have a lot of personal experience with M&M (see: reasons I'm not Mechanics); I'll pass it along. I believe Matt's expressed similar concerns...
Don't get me wrong. I want the actual d20 out of the game. Fuck those things. Just toughness checks and stuff have to change if you change the die.

>>48625633
>'Some idiot' is one of our co-owners
No surprises there.

>>48625608

>Logistics are basically never an issue in Pathfinder because of Rings of Sustenance and utility spells/powers.

Pathfinder isn't 'All fantasy stories'.

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>>48625670
You're basically competing with yourself for fantasy superheroes, you know?

What, you DON'T think that all those initiator/psionic/akashic/tzocatl classes aren't already fantasy superheroes?

>>48625713
People don't always want to play Pathfinder.

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>>48625682
Oh, definitely. Any changes to the fundamental math have to be followed with changes to the things that depend on it too, especially big important ones like how you live or die.

Thoughtline to run past folks since we've been on the subject of character creation in any event; many comic stories (actually, many fantasy stories too) feature heroes or characters that have extraordinary capabilities because they're /not human/ - they're monsters, or aliens, or otherwise enhanced. Right now there's an intention on my end to allow non-human Dawnborn, which are made with the same rules as normal Dawnborn - you denote some Powers as being from your species and the GM then incorporates that into their local section of the setting. This kinda implies that non-human Dawnborn get less power from whatever's investing the Dawnborn, but it also simplifies the creation mechanics. Thoughts or feelings on that approach?

>>48625633
Bring me a game that runs off 4 stats and a 3d6 and I will buy every goddamn motherfucking book you put out for it.

>>48625769

That seems fine.

However, if you do so it would be nice to introduce a few sample templates for spending points.

It's something I've come to rather like with the TNG Star Trek RPG. You get X points...then they give examples of what you can spend them on. Like if you had intelligence training buy X, Y and Z.

In this case some standard non-human templates would be nice so you can go 'This is a decent baseline if you want this iconic fantasy race'

>>48625774
What if the books are blessed and father-romancing?

I'm sorry, I'm low on coffee.

>>48625774
JUST
PLAY
GURPS

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>>48625774
>>48625830
>Bring me a game that runs off 4 stats and a 3d6 and I will buy every goddamn motherfucking book you put out for it.

What about a stat spread of Strength, Dexterity, IQ, and Health? Dexterity and IQ cost twice as much as Strength and Health, obviously.

The game will use 3d6, and we can call it GURPS 4e.

>>48625633
>Considering Cutting down on stats because its often a better idea to just invest in the stuff they effect.

Why not just cut them out entirely?

They're kindof dead weight on the system anyways. Just let people buy the things they want, and give them some conveniently organized trait packages to give them ideas.

>>48625769
Well, the system is simply you buying abilities, stats, and skills with points. If they wanna be a monster, they would just spend their points on getting there.

Say someone wants to be a troll will laser eyes. They would spend points on a blast just like someone making Cyclops from the X-men would. They would spend points on appropriate ability scores, probably more than someone playing Cyclops from the X-men would. They would spend points on a permanent enlargement power. The human would not. Using all his saved points, the Cyclops guy could invest in lots of skills, stats that aren't necessarily physicial, more powers. The troll should still have points to spend on skills and stuff, but not as much.

Race is very much not needed. If anything, a few premade packages would work, for someone who wants to make orcs and trolls on the cheap. Just enough points spent to have the minimum stats and size required.

>>48625905
That was kind of the thrust of the idea, yeah. Don't make race a thing that influences mechanics, make it something you represent by buying up the appropriate mechanics. It came up during worldbuilding discussion about things that arose after the Darkness Without but weren't /of/ it - entities like, say, the sakuragito.

>>48625902
...Bold, but that could streamline things if we do it right...

>>48625769
This is literally what the vast majority of point-buy systems already do for "races."

Do you guys have, like, zero experience with anything other than Pathfinder?

>>48625713
>>48625730
Pathfinder is also way less flexible in the characters you can build than gurps or m&m.

>>48625947
My experience with racial mechanics outside of D&D and its legacy systems is in Shadowrun 4e and Palladium. The latter was...painful...to work through. Can't speak for the rest of the team.

>>48625769
Did you check this out?
>>48623111

If you're designing a game mechanic, any dice is great for considering the odds.

>>48625859
>>48625861
My mistake, I should've said bring me a GOOD game.

>>48625982
I did, and Mechanics is peeling through. Part of the appeal of going to D6 is just about everyone in the USA owns at least two and you can buy packs of them at local supermarkets if you don't have an FLGS.

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>>48625973
You guys desperately need someone with experience with a whole buncha systems on your team.
Why not recruit 2hu?

>>48625990
What, exactly, makes you think GURPS isn't good?

>>48623111
For 3d6: Better than 3/4/5 and 16/17/18, do fumbles on two 1s, and crits on two 6s. Distorts the numbers less and still has about a 5% shot.

>>48625769
Build everything as powers and advantages.

Assemble them into prebuilt packages like how gurps does for lenses.

They're just preselected lists.

Then if you want me ones, you can just pick the stuff and make a new list and youre done.

I do think some kind of hp system instead of toughness checks would help a ton.

And you should fix skill caps. Right now a generalist can be just as good at everything as a specialist, the specialist just had a ton of stuff they're bad at.

Which means everyone builds generalists , and characters end up very samey.

>>48625774
>ITT: how do we make m&m better.
>change x, y, z.
Game is looking more and more like gurps...

>>48626046
Never once have I had fun playing GURPS. It feels like an unintuitive trainwreck.

>>48626015
Too busy enthused over godbound.

>>48623250
Hell, even 2d10+mods is better. The math is overall the same, it just trends more toward the average. Plus, you can do fun things with "Do X when you roll doubles."

>>48626187
But isn't Godbound already directly competing with Dawnborn?

>>48626270
Why do you think he isn't here?

>>48625973
>making an m&m spinoff
>point buy everything
Seriously gareth.
You and your mechanics team.
Get your ass over here >>48618793.
Download the pdf.
Open the trove.
Download the books.
Open them.
Read them.
See how they do things and why.
Get a handle on how it works.
Ask people about what it fails at.
Avoid copying those failures. Contrast it with m&m, and maybe also hero.
Figure out what it does well, that you like.
Emulate what it does well.

I mean honestly, it's like you're trying to design a new motor with no understanding of how motors work.

GURPS, HERO, and M&M are the games like what you're making. Learn from them.

>>48626056
>distorts the numbers less
How?

>still has about a 5% shot.
Its 7 and a half.

And you cant get a 17 or 18 without two 6s anyways, and 16 requires at least 1 6.

But you wont ever roll a 13 and crit the way im suggesting. Not critting on a mediocre roll and not bitching on a decent roll seems like a good thing to me.

>>48626046
Personally, I hate Steve Jackson with a passion that burns unrivalled by any star in the known universe, and would rather play fucking Promised Sands again than play literally anything that their slimy fingers have been in the same zip code as.

>>48626122
That's, unfortunately, not the system. It's the shitty uninuitive book design.

>>48626397
...On a scale from one to Heroes Unlimited, how bad are we talking in terms of book layout?

>>48626514
Take a look at the books yourself dude, I personally think they're well laid-out but others disagree.

>>48625973
>>48626313
Having played gurps and m&m, the point buy characters idea with a flexible base of options is good.

Both systems have their problems, however they aren't the *same* problems.

I'd definitely suggest taking ideas and learning from both.

Roll over is more intuitive roll under.
M&M's damage system is all.
Non damage powers in m&m dont interact with the combat game the rest of the party is playing at all.
The stats in both games are mostly vestigial and make the game worse. Cut them.
Exponentially priced options in gurps (skills) makes combining templates a nightmare. Please use flat costs.
M&M has no real rules for money. GURPs has no real rules for custom items or vehicles or the like because theres no points=dollars equivalency.
GURPs layout is fucking awful, and the main book is simply too goddamn big. Youll also need powers and thaumatology and martial arts for most campaigns. Try to condense all three sources of subject matter into a single, much smaller, better laid out book, whatever you do.
M&Ms caps make everyone exactly as good as eachother at whatever they're best at, and specialists just stuck at everything else . I'm not sure what the best approach is, but it's not this.
Oh. And many of your guys books have some fucking terrible artwork, or use shit artwork as recurring layout throughout the entire fucking book. This matters much more if you're making an actual game. Look at m&m and 4e for layout inspiration, and please stop being such godawful artists. They're cheap for a reason. Less high quality art is better than tons of shitty art. A consistent art style is also good, and you might save money by only getting line art like fantasy craft, while still looking excellent. Plus, a b&w book can be printed at home, easily.

If you guys do a good job at this it could become my system of choice for high powered fantasy games, or a rules lighter alternative to gurps.

If you do a shitty job I'll avoid it like I do m&m.

>>48626733
>theres no points=dollars equivalency.
There's a 'trading points for money' thing in the side box on page 26 of the Basic Set.

>custom vehicles
You know not what you ask for.

>terrible layout
Is this the three columns thing that people bitch at AD&D 2e for?

>>48626514
Is not clear from the core book how you actually run the game. It's not too bad for finding stuff and the indexes are okay, if you know which book to look in.

The answer is actually that you only use a small subset of the rules, which the gm has to pick out in advance. There's no set of "default" options you can assume are available in the core book. You need to go to a setting book like monster hunters or dungeon fantasy for that.

And the core book is seriously lacking in magic rules, rules to make combat more interesting combat rules, and rules for making superpowers.

Basically,

>>48626733
M&Ms damage system is awful. *
Please stop using such godawful artists*

>>48626821
I'm more complaining about organization, and not being able to run much at all with just the core book set, than the layout itself.

2 columns is better than 3, but 3 isn't a deal breaker.

Ideally, it would follow M&Ms pattern of being able to build/play basically everything with the core book, and supplements would largely be examples and templates and setting stuff and adventures.

>basic set has "trading points for money".
Is it good/accurate enough to use to determine the price of a power/advantage as an item, or to take an item and know immediately how many points its worth as an innate power? Because that's what I need it for.

>custom vehicles is terrifying
Why? People already do it, as cohorts. I just want to be able to stick a reasonable price tag on it and but it in the shop.

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Why not use Strike! as a basis?

Totally serious here. It could work out for you.

>>48627150
What's the advantage, tohoufag?
Is it even ogc?

>>48627179
>tohoufag
kek

>>48627179
Strike! lets you make some really sick and fun combat builds for any character no matter what their fluff is.

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Okay, so, question as The Worldbuilding Guy rather than the current face of the project: what's the impressions on the adventure? I realize that the mechanical elements are gonna need some changing (that's been our topic of choice thus far, after all) but Sweep Your Own Porch is my first rodeo when it comes to premade adventures. Does it provide a decent introduction to the setting? What parts could be expanded on? What parts could use some contracting? Does it handle player agency or suggest methods of handling agency successfully? What could use more description, or less description?

Things like that adventure are going to be my job as we move forward and I'd like to be able to get it right.

>>48627486
"Meh."

>>48627514
How very helpful, Anon! Just give a bit of reasoning, such as:

>>48627486
Setting is overall standard "Dark Fantasy" fare, so I'll stick to exceptions. We don't know much about it, not /really/, but I like the descriptions of the Darkness, how it's a physical thing, and the Drake Shields. Have you ever played Legend of Legaia (old PS1 game)? They did something similar with the Mist, might be worth looking at for ideas.

I'd like to know more about the Count and how he fell so far, though. If I'm reading right, one of the characters is his kid, so it could be cool

>>48627660
I have not, but I did take some inspiration from the Miasma seen in Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles (do what you must, I have already won).

And aye, Jasper Cliffholm the Second is the heir.

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>>48627660
>the Drake Shields. Have you ever played Legend of Legaia (old PS1 game)? They did something similar with the Mist, might be worth looking at for ideas.

Tales of Vesperia had the best looking "barriers protecting towns from monsters."

>>48627700
Never got to play Vesperia, but the tail of the adventure describes the Darkness as fog-like, so the Mist came to mind. Makes stuff go nuts in it.

>>48627690
Didn't like that game much, so never finished it. IIRC, the Miasma actively damaged people within it who were unprotected, whereas the Darkness is just a sensory deprivation booth covering the planet

>>48627486
It reads like a Pathfinder adventure. I only skimmed it after the first two pages though. Looked okay.

Prewritten adventures almost never seem to give me what i want to run an adventure though (with the exception of some of the owod adventures).

Which is to say they're too tied to particular a plot, and I'm going to have to improv a ton if the players go off the rails.

I prefer my adventures in non story form, with a variety of interesting npcs to work with and notices and situations and event timelines. Bonus points if you also give me faction rosters and encounter lineups and random event/encounter tables keyed to the location and current events.

Though since nobody published anything even remotely like that, I have no idea how it would do financially or with other people.

>>48627796
Also, adventures written in paragraph form make it hard to find what i need of i have to reference something mid - session.

This sounds cool, how do i get a group to try though? Anyone wanna try via skype or d20?

>>48627486
The layout and art in the alpha look great! Less is more! Good work layout and art guys!

>>48627852
It doesn't even exist yet you fucking cuck shill. Everything is bits of other games cobbled together.

>>48626386
Wow, guessing you keep losing at Muchkin?

>>48626830
The core book is also 576 pages, which covers...
Wizards, lasers, tanks and jets, firearms, psychics, fatigue and illness, time-travel, combat, animals and monsters, drifting, dismemberment, vampires, universe-hopping, AI, kung-fu, computers and hacking, inventing, drugs, surgery, GM advice, and a look at the default setting Infinite Worlds.

And you're bitching that they don't include more in the core?

>>48627969
I think he means he wants to find someone to play the playtest with dumbass.

>>48628235
His company uses hyper aggressive lawyers to muscle startups out of similar areas unless they get too much traction too quick. Sucks, there were some nice niche games that caught CAD orders.

My biggest piece of advice, which other people have already said but I'll just re-iterate to drive the point home:

Look at games other than PF and MM.
Look at systems other than D20.
Look at other games that are after the same idea as you (ie Exalted, GURPS, Godbound, Adventurer Conqueror King, Legends of the Wulin, Anima).
Study them hard and see what they do right, and especially what they do wrong.

>>48628385
Examples/citations? I can't find anything on Google.

>>48618877
I'd suggest taking a look at Wild Talents for ideas you can incorporate as it's a really well done system.

>>48628356
Less gear, add the powers rules in core, drop the default magic system and add the thaumagurgy make your own system rules (or just use powers in core and make magic supplemental), make the powers creation rules cover vehicles and gear, trim the fluff a bit, simplify a bit, and release a book that will cover more in the same page count. Yes.

Or cut out, like all the unnecessary stuff, and make it a single rules cyclopedia, and say "for the full game you will need gurps equipment gurps
Thaumatology, and gurps powers. But here are some sample rules *outside the book* in some free pamphlets to have you covered in the meantime."

>>48625466
There's probably better ways to track things of course. Just giving base framework ideas here.

>... oh gods that was 3 hours ago and not a single thing to wake me up
>I have literally seen no one for an entire shift
>Were we even fucking open?

>>48622192
>
Can't be bothered to check, but I believe actually dying is not something that happens just because you were shot in the face: like the genre it's meant to emulate, your characters aren't supposed to die all that often - and that's assuming the mook can actually hurt you with a gun and you're not bulletproof or have superhuman reflexes to dodge the shot at point-blank range or something.

All that said, it heavily depends on the character. If you make a character immune to small arms fire, yes. If they are not, then yeah a good shot and a whiffed resistance check WILL put a frail (or just not as supertough) PC in bleed out.

Alrighty. This has been some good feedback and discussion today. We'll be back with an update Soon(TM), looking to display the direction the mechanics revamp is going, offer at least a starter on character creation, and attempt to show off the Dominion rules.

This thread's still open for feedback or thoughtlines, esp. if folks have thoughts on the adventure section (I live in terror of your feedback). After this one archives out we'll make a new one when we've got progress to show off for ya.

>>48627796
Huh. My two guidelines for it were White Wolf adventures, admittedly for Scion - "The Long Road to Heaven" and "Ragnarok".

How does a company that needs to beg for money on Patreon have the funds to make a whole new game?

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>>48629959
By having it NOT be a new system, and just a reskin of M&M 3e?

Why's he on 4chan looking for advice? It seems like there's better things he could be doing if he wanted to make an RPG.

>>48629959
I'm not sure how you're imagining the cost structuring on this but the finances won't be a difficulty for a good, long time anon.

>>48630273
4chan's given us swift, accurate, honest feedback before. Frankly this community's been one of /the/ most helpful.

>>48629959
Probably working on the cheap, in their spare time, with a promise of future royalties or something.

>>48630273

Where else do you get feedback this brutal?

Gareth is a masochist.

>>48630273
GitP is full of passive-aggressive assholes that don't actually know anything beyond 3.5 D&D, Minmax Forums are a joke, The Gaming Den is insular and high-minded as fuck. /tg/ is one of the few actually-legitimate places you can talk about a game in complete honesty.

>>48629447
I can totally see the resemblance to The Long Road to Heaven, but I'm not sure if it's the best place to start. While Long Road on its own has a solid arc, it leans a little too heavily at times on having the exact iconics, which makes it harder to adapt for an individual group's needs. The Greek quest, for example, falls so far into Aphrodite's domain that it doesn't work if your Greek character isn't her kid. The adventure here kind of has a similar problem. While it works really well for the characters involved, it's not a great fit for once character creation comes into play. As the amount of customization grows, it's going to become way harder to predict where the PCs will be coming from.

Also, nice choice on inspiration. Just please, for the love of God, don't mimic Scion's mechanics.

Seriously though, Gareth: did you just take the names of Skyrim's expansions and combine them?

>>48631089
Yeah, I have worries there. I'm not sure what the fate of Sweep Your Own Porch will be once we move into wider character creation; we might keep it on as a sort of introductory adventure, maybe? Some groups do like to learn without trying to deal with character creation at first, and the assigning XP mechanic gives you a taste of the idea for your next go 'round. We'll have to keep revisiting it as things progress.

I know the pain of Scion's mechanics. It hurts. It hurts so much, anon. Not even this Kraken can take that pain away.

>>48631177
I didn't name it. It's a bit on-the-nose but, then, comic names /tend/ to be on the nose.

Sell us on this game, mate, why should we care?

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Alright, here are my initial thoughts. Obviously I haven't run a game using the system yet, this is just a surface-level analysis.

1) The introductory paragraphs are needlessly circuitous. You can just say something like "The Dawnborn RPG is set in the world of Rasa, a fantasy realm where the forces of darkness won and scattered humanity into the safety of a few remaining cities warded against evil. You play a Dawnborn, a person blessed with inexplicable powers they can use to drive back the darkness or rule this doomed world." Get to the point and save the deeper lore for later.

2) Your Relevant Rules seem completely out of order. Given that this is a playtest document with pre-generated characters and no character creation, you should present your information in something like the following order:
- Explain How to Read a Character Sheet (with a sample character)
- Core Mechanic (d20 + bonuses - penalties vs. Difficulty)
- Degrees of Success and Failure
- Attributes
- Skills
- Combat Time
- Defences and Initiative

3) You should completely remove Advantages as they're laid out right now. Instead, list the benefits of each Advantage in the characters' (and NPC's) stat sheets. For example, right now Ashleen has Evasion, Move-by Action, and Takedown. As a player, I don't know what any of these do just by looking at her. Instead, you might want to do like I've done in the picture supplied. I also re-worded it to make it easier to understand, in my opinion.

4) I recommend you do the same with Conditions. Having the effect listed on the power/attack is a lot easier for new players and GMs.

More to come, still working on it.

>>48619046
>Dawnborn embraces elements of Bronze Age heroism,
Please, I hope they do this right.

>>48632031
kek of course not

So, based on the scant bits of lore we got now, what kinds of literature/other fantasy setting would people like to see them draw inspiration from?

Me personally, I'd like to see something akin to a bizarre mix of The Epic of Gilgamesh, Dark Souls, Jak, Morrowind (I need my 36 lessons fix), and maybe a little bit of Zelda WW, all wrapped up in a Bronze Age coating

>>48632118
Well, what would you say would be essential for them to come close to succeeding?

>>48629447
The few ww adventures i liked were for vtm.

Actually, come to think of it, I'm pretty sure the "adventures" are city books, filled with interesting characters and factions and plot lines, not proper "adventures" at all.

Something closer to that, but with timelines of various characters plots and a quick explanation of what happens if the pcs don't intervene would be ideal.

Again , with rosters and random event/encounter tables specific to both the places and current events (preferably in separate tables, so i can swap out the current event table when is no longer relevant and still use the location table without more work on my part).

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>>48631727
5) 'Wounds' seem to represent serious physical harm, I'm not certain that's the best thing to call 'damage' in your system. Just a minor gripe.

6) I'm overall not impressed with the formatting and presentation of the text, and doubly so with the character sheets. I know it's meant to be a very, very rough draft but it looks beyond rough right now. The font is unattractive, some of the paragraphs are far too long, and it all feels a little too 'dense'. There's no room to breathe, it's all too compact and cluttered. Emili's powers, for example, all blend into each other in a sort of visual soup.

7) I like how the sample characters have a listed advancement progression. It's nice and gives the players something to look forward to when they earn XP. Their quotes are also pretty decent, and I like the

8) Rowan is far too complex a character to be giving newbie players on day 1. Choosing his starting gadgets means you're giving people decision paralysis with a pre-generated character. Give him three specific gadgets and maybe give the GM a list of stuff he can make at home if the party gains a chance to rest or prep during the adventure.

I'll doubtless have more feedback eventually but that's all I can think of for now.

I made a mock-up of Ashleen Falls' stat block with what I'd consider better formatting, here's a sample.

>>48630295
>>48630721
Fucking this.

The people here (on average) have a significantly better than average understanding of game mechanics and game design, and knowledge of a wide assortment of games.

Additionally, because of the anonymity, nobody fears moderator reprisal for "not being nice".

It's not the most polite place, but it's basically the only place you can get honest opinions and advice on rpgs.

Gitp is the only other option, but they only do d20.

I come to 4chan to get your guys opinions before I buy any traditional game. I also check for a review from time to time, but tg as pretty accurate ideas of what's good and bad about a game. And unlike most sources, you're not afraid to tell me what you don't like about a given game and why. Typically less so in a /general/ though they can get a little circlejerky, with the exception of pathfinder, where they're happy to criticise, point out flaws, suggest using any and all 3pp they think is even remotely good, and strongly advise people to ignore all errata.

>>48631216
Hey gareth. How are you guys handling xp distribution? Personally i like (and only use) something i came up with myself, called "game windows" in combination with mission xp based on what the players attempted and how difficult the goal was.

The purpose of game windows was to make "session xp" vary based on how long we play, since sometimes we play for 3 hours, and other times we pay for 11.

A window is 4 hours. You have to play at least one and a half hours of a window to get the xp for it, but you get at least one window worth each session.

So 0-5.5 hours is 1 window, 5.5-9. 5 hours is two, etc.

The specific amounts of xp i give out for each thing varies based on the level range /power curve im going for in the campaign, along with how long I expect the campaign will last.

I've been happy with it since I came up with it.

>>48632467
That's because the /pfg/ circlejerk is more literal, all they care about is figuring out what options are best for /d/-class ERP.

>>48631727
>>48632410
Thank you very much, my friend. Pass'd to internal to be chewed over. It does look like you wanted to finish a thought here, though:

> 7) I like how the sample characters have a listed advancement progression. It's nice and gives the players something to look forward to when they earn XP. Their quotes are also pretty decent, and I like the

Did you accidentally words?

>>48632362
They did such city books for nWoD too, including sample communities at the back of each major gameline's core book.

>>48632547
>>48631727

Something I'd very much like to see with progression is 'Combat' and 'Non-combat' being two entirely different things points-wise.

It's a major failing (imo, exact perception varies) with a lot of games with point buy as they make you pick between being able to act outside of combat and being better in-combat. It also feels a lot like this is the sort of setting where you have your Doc Savage sorts of characters that are very multi-faceted in capabilities.

It's a major issue I have with Exalted 3e where you have Dawns, they fight well. End of line. Everyone else: They do non-combat stuff better than Dawns but only dawns really matter in combat as they fight that much better.

>>48632547
>Did you accidentally words?

Haha, forgot to finish that off. I meant to say "Their quotes are also pretty decent, and I like the Personality section. Perhaps consider expanding it with some direct advice to the player on how they might role-play the character. Three to five bullet points might be enough to give a little inspiration or spice that'll help people get in that character's head-space."

Is there any chance Dreamscarred Press is looking to hire people to work on this game, full or part-time? Because I like the concept of this game but I think that you can do much better than M&M 3E. I also think that I can help make that happen. I'd be very interested in getting on-board for this project, if that's an option.

>>48632593
Seconding this. If there's any major gripe I have of non-OSR D&D-ish games (i.e. anything 3e and later or based off of one of these), it's that the combat-heavy characters seem to only be good at combat, and often need to fight the system itself in order to be even remotely competent in literally any other field.

To take 3.PF for example, the amount of effort I need to put into a Fighter to make him at least as competent as a Bard when it comes to any sort of inter-character interaction that doesn't involve stabbing is ludicrous. I mean shit, Conan is often mentioned as the stereotypical Barbarian, and in order for any sort of modern Barbarian class to be as eloquent as he was in a good amount of stories they'd need to start as a Rogue just to hope to have enough skill points to not be a drooling idiot once the fighting stops.

>>48632544
Ill take that and a reasonable views on the game over what i got from sigmar generals inability to tell me anything negative about the system when i asked for the good and bad, and just got a "good luck finding players for any other fantasy wargame lolololol." as if that is all the reason you might want to get into a new game.

>>48632780

It's something I really liked a lot better with 4e where they seriously cut down on extra non-combat stuff by folding it back into skills and just letting everyone have roughly the same number of skills (It wasn't perfect, some stats were better for non-combat than others/arcana got too much support). Suddenly everyone can do roughly as much as each others outside combat rather than 'Here are a heap of spells and feats to replace skills/open them up to stuff they should be able to do in the first place'

>>48632835
I'll agree that 4e was -better-, but it wasn't -good-. I did like the slim list of skills, though, and honestly I use a slim list like that in my osr-style fantasy heartbreaker myself.

>>48632780
>>48632593
This is depressingly common. I don't mind being able to deliberately choose to be less combat valuable for more utility, but by default i should be able to do a good mix of both, and i should not be able to sacrifice of of combat utility for extra in combat stuff.

>>48632907

I liked it myself but I don't think it was perfect. So a bit of a difference of opinion there.

Either way: I'd much rather a narrow list of widely applicable skills over a wide list of narrowly applicable skills.

If they DO keep stats (Not hugely enthused by them but they are not a dealbreaker) I'd like to see stats decoupled from skills. Big Scary over there can intimidate with Strength just like how Arcane Power over there can intimidate with whatever stat he uses to fling death.

But then, I think I just argued for 'Eh, stats are not really needed'

>>48620755
You could take the Legend System approach.

3-5 encounters are a scene, 3-5 scenes are an adventure.

>>48632943
Yep. They're dead weight

>>48626991
>custom vehicles is terrifying
You've not seen what happens when GURPS and custom vehicles mix. 4e does have some spaceship and mecha simple creation things, though.

The BS points->cash thing is '1 point = 10% TL average starting cash'.

>>48634091
Right.

I'm asking if that honestly works for what Im looking for (custom items), because I'm inclined to think not.

>>48634125
You'd have to assume that all the value of the item comes from the powers it has, and that those powers aren't being over/undervalued by the in-game market.

The better way to work out the point value of an item is just to calculate the point cost for a PC to have its abilities, and then slap the Gadget limitation on it.

Will the new thread have a fetish OP, as is classic for /pfg/?

>>48634250
Why do we need a fetish OP? That one dude can't stop riding Godbound's cock as it is.

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>>48634125
>>48634216
There's also a bunch of stuff for Dungeon Fantasy that handles special treasures and things. This sidebar seems to be handling some of your questions.

>>48634216
Then it's still part of the character. Gadgets come with free (eventual) replacements.

Yes, I'd like objective prices in the book, and I'd prefer the over and under pricing of items be campaign specific. Why is that unusual?

>>48634269
>Why do we need a fetish OP?
Just standard procedure on /pfg/.

>>48634309
>500/pt.
Interesting. I imagine it doesn't mesh up with existing items at all, but nice regardless

>>48634351
As the box says, that's only really for a D&D/Dungeon Fantasy style world where these things are knocking around all over the place.

The problem is, there's no such thing as an objective cash price. The price you pay for something depends on a huge number of factors, such as difficulty of manufacture, usefulness (which isn't the same everywhere), novelty, and exactly what the merchant thinks he can get away with.

A proper guide to pricing items with strange advantages would probably come under the name 'GURPS Campaign Economics'.

>>48634414
Preferably it would be on the same scale as powers. That's what I mean by objective. Ideally "take it as a power" or "take it as an item" should be a meaningful choice, as well as guidelines for pricing new items as the gm, or converting items into powers quickly.

>>48634460
You can only really provide that points->price conversion for a setting by making assumptions about it, like DF6's assumption that you're playing a dungeon-crawly game. You could try to provide prices for a setting like Infinite Worlds, where you can buy basically anything, but those prices would really only be valid for a nexus point like Planescape's Sigil where everything is available from everywhere at the most competitive price. As soon as you invalidate some of the assumptions the 'objective prices' make about the setting, they will all change, and not necessarily in predictable ways.

You need to go find an economist and ask them these sorts of questions.

>>48634345
This isn't /pfg/, go back to your containment thread.

>>48634605
The same can be said for any particular power.

Better they're arbitrarily priced in relation to a flexible system so you can reasonably expand it as needed then arbitrarily priced without any rules for expansion.

>>48634605
To be fair the same goes with gold and credits: everything being the same cost everywhere makes no sense anytime other than five dollar footlongs - and even that's due to standardization and contractual obligations due to consumer protections against advertising fraud.

What you CAN do is directly base it off the common "x points = x money" that most of those systems have for people rolling up "the rich guy". It's something that needs to be addressed ANYWAYS since so many of those systems are quickly calculated and a "this much money allows you to "buy" as "mundane" equipment the following powers, granting you Z points value where it would normally have cost you Y" (with depending on the system Z being either higher or way lower than Y).

Make sure that THAT is balanced, make the adjustments for integration/miniaturization level (the bigger, more awkward and less permanently-part-of-you it is, the lower the cost, so that vehicles have a reason they still exist, and "it's a rocket launcher" remains cheaper than just "so I shoot rockets from my fingers")

The prices would just be a standard, probably adjusted for "average government-type major trade metropolis", with the cost of ordering/importing/custom-making the stuff proportionately higher in other places.

But none of anything matters if prices aren't balanced in the first place, so might as well unify.

>>48634091
I've seen what happens.
I've seen "totally not the macross" axe-kick enemy ships and dodge like Maximilian Fucking Jenius was their helmsman

>>48632467
>Additionally, because of the anonymity, nobody fears moderator reprisal for "not being nice".
And nobody fears social repercussions for being a total dickbag for no reason, either. That same anonymity is also the reason that you have to wade through miles of shit to find one comment worth reading in this place... there are no consequences for being a raging asshole, so the place is full of raging assholes.

>>48632593
>Something I'd very much like to see with progression is 'Combat' and 'Non-combat' being two entirely different things points-wise.

Why not try Strike?