So why exactly should people with superpowers who can shape the

They shouldn't, any retard that thinks they should is a fucking moron.

>>48108167
They're not meant to be.
The problem is that in your shit game, you have either "Superpowers who can shape reality" and "dudes who can swing a sword really hard"

So everyone can participate.

If you want spellcasters to be more powerful just ask your GM to let you play at a higher level than everyone else :^)

>>48108167

Gandalf also wasn't a human or even a mortal. He's more NPC than PC.

>>48108167
Because it's a game and not a book. When one class of character can do everything another class can, and then have more abilities to spare, it totally invalidates the other class being in the game. At that point, it's poor game design, even if only for having trap options.

>>48108167
That's because Gandalf wasn't solving every problem with magic and invalidating everyone else in the group. That's because he couldn't. Magic was subtle. No one was hucking fireballs around or summoning creatures from beyond or shit like that.

>>48108275
What was he

>>48108167
The idea is so that people who like playing the guys with swords and the people who like playing wizards can play together in the same game without one of them being useless or insignificant to the plot. Ideally the point of the game is to play with with friends, not imaginary sycophants who will suck your dick because your imaginary character is more "powerful" than their imaginary characters.

>>48108167
Because the game presents them both as equally useful options, with no warning that playing as one means taking on a self-imposed challenge.

Because "bends the fabric of reality with their mind" represents a *type* of power, not the *scale* of that power, and there's no reason the scale of what it allows has to completely eclipse mundane means.

And because there are a shitload of systems that aren't class and level based that manage to balance them just fine, and it's only a couple iterations of one notable system that are still struggling with this.

>I don't remember Boromir crying about Gandalf being too OP.
He was a bit busy being dead, having been killed by shit far less dangerous than what Gandalf survives. Your illustration of your point disproves your point.

>>48108167
>The type of magic I like is super-powered magic on crack with no repercussion at all
>The type of fighters are like are mooks
Just play a wizards centric rpg. It's better for your type.

>>48108305
http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Maiar

We're talking about D&D, right?
Then the answer is because it's a system with levels indicative of personal power. Characters of equal level should be of roughly equal ability, differing only into how those abilities take shape. This comes before classes and features enter into it at all.

>>48108167
Boromir complained whenever Gandalf cast fireball, remember?

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>>48108369
Bingo.

>>48108369
>>48108508
The purpose of levels was to advance a lot of class features at once and cut down on granularity in character advancement. That's it. They weren't originally meant to represent a certain stage of power or be equivalent across classes, and the idea that they should is a latter-day innovation that has never fucking worked.

Jhereg:

Ordinary human kills wizards, sorcerers, duelists, and others hundreds of years older than he is.

Usually with a knife.

No one is immune to assassination.

>>48108597
>>48108369
Being useless sure is fun, right guys?!

>>48108167

>with their mind

Psionics aren't exactly what most people are complaining about, OP.

If you're talking about wizards, sorcerors, etc. you're not 'shaping reality', you're using proven methods of adjusting one substance in order to effect larger change on reality.

Tell me, OP, why should we consider combat engineers to be balanced against riflemen? After all, the former can make a bridge appear where none was before; a rifleman can just shoot somebody.

>>48108597
Why do you want to ruin the balance of a game?
>Hurdur fighters should only be useful at low levels that's how it balances.

>>48108369
>>48108508
This is only true on 3.0 on. In AD&D the levels were not on the same scales. Casters went up incredibly slowly, and couldn't cast spells instantly.

A fighter could, and did, kill casters with ease, and actually got BETTER at it at higher levels instead of worse.

>>48108635

>Jhereg
>Not God-Tier Dragon

Do you even lizard DNA?

>>48108689
The book, not the caste.

>>48108644
Hey, I didn't tell you to bring James Sunderland from Silent Hill 2 to our party of Dante, Bayonetta and Asura. You made your bed, now lie in it, and thus keep out of our way while we juggle kaiju with lightning bolts.

>>48108167
Just play something that's not D&D if you don't want to deal with this problem.

Personally I think it would be cool if fighters and other shitty martial classes were like half-levels or something, sou you could get two sets of mediocre class features for 1 level's worth if XP. It'd also be cool if they just had faster progression or sonething.

I don't really like D&D or class based systems though.

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>>48108167

>>48108705
No, you didn't. But this is one of the pregen sheet you gave to the noob group.
Someone had to pick it up.

>>48108705
Why was James presented as an equally viable option in the first place then?

Therein lies the problem. Everything is presented as equally viable when it's not. It's lying to the player and then punishing them when they fall for it.

>>48108708
>Personally I think it would be cool if fighters and other shitty martial classes were like half-levels or something,
I've seen it suggested before that classes of tier 4 and lower be allowed to Gestalt with another class of tier 4 and lower. It still doesn't solve the problem, but it helps.

>>48108733
Kratos was the other option than James. The other three got picked, it came down to James or Kratos, and you said "I'mma nudge things with my wooden stick".

Why did you do that?

because levels are literally a measurement of power,
boromir didn't whine because he's a level 10 while gandalf is level 20

>>48108329
>Because "bends the fabric of reality with their mind" represents a *type* of power, not the *scale* of that power, and there's no reason the scale of what it allows has to completely eclipse mundane means.

Basically the best answer to this retarded meme ever.

I mean, that is exactly what I always thought but I couldn't shape it into so well spoken form.

>>48108767
Because I don't know what Kratos, Asura, Bayonetta, Dante or James do. It's new to me.
I assumed there wasn't a trap, since it would be a big dick move.

>>48108369

But it makes no sense really.

Should a rogue be perfectly balanced in combat vs warriors? Or a clown?

>>48108797
A lvl 20 rogue against a lvl 20 warrior should have the same amount of utility in a party.

>>48108797
A rogue isn't exactly a combat-centric class.

>>48108683
Combat engineers having casting times that require riflemen to secure the position before they can safely make bridges.

Casting times are largely irrelevant or not present in modern DnD.

Combat Engineers are old school DnD, where the classes were actually close to balanced.

>>48108167
>So why exactly should people with superpowers who can shape the reality with their mind be "balanced" with dudes who can swing a sword really hard?

If you cant imagine what a godlike, super-powered warrior could do to shape reality with their art beyond 'i hit mans widd surd' you are a lost cause.

Your blatant immunity to inspiration and crippled imagination is a cancer on the hobby you keep polluting by trying to force others to participate in your own stale and lifeless take on it. All with the justification that the most blatant flaws of an old and dated game's design support your shitshow of a game.

>>48108940
To further reiterate this point, a modern day wizard with acess to something like tensers transformation (or a couple of other spells that just turn the wizard into a better fighter, not even to mention druid/cleric shenanigans) is the equivalent of a combat engineer that runs around in a giant mech that outclasses every soldier easily.

The important thing to note is that in settings where people run around with giant mechs, there usually are no normal soldiers anymore, BECAUSE THEY'RE COMPLETELY POINTLESS.

>>48109067
But it's so much simpler to just whine about anime and throw a fit!

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>>48109094
Or if they're there, they're not presented as a PC option.

>>48109067
>godlike, super-powered warrior

And how does he do it without magic or being a half-god?

Aragorn sure as fuck never had superpowers.

While we are at it, what exactly is stopping a wizard from training sword-fighting and making spells that turn him into an amazing sword fighter?

>>48109141
By the power of skill and stronk.
Beowulf is a good example. Ripping limbs left and right because stronk and that's it.

>>48108167

They shouldn't, unless it's in a game where people will be playing both kinds of characters.

There's a reason that games don't usually translate well to actual stories, anon.

>>48109141
Force of will? Warrior's spirit? Some vague explanation that is equally question-dodging as "muh magic"?

>>48108167
Replace martial with Saitama.

>>48109189
Or staying underwater for days at a time, or swimming the ocean in full armor with no problem or...

>>48109141
>And how does he do it without magic
Who's saying it has to be without magic? My martial could be just as magical as your caster, he just expresses it with his muscles instead of his mind

>>48109141
Beowulf, Siegfried, King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table, Rostam, Sundiata, Bhishma, Eklavya, etc.

Examples of high powered martials who are not Divine or Magical.

>>48109237
Beowulf had pretty fucking great Con and Str score.

>>48108167
>HURR I'M GONNA START ANOTHER SHITTHREAD ON A TOPIC THAT'S BEEN ADDRESSED AND FINISHED A LONG FUCKING TIME AGO

>>48109232
/thread

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/tg/ today is flooded with bait

>>48108167
boromir was not a player character. tolkien didn't have to worry about him getting bored. in any case, if gandalf had simply outshined the rest of the fellowship by putting them all in a magic bubble and floating them to mount doom it would probably have been a very boring book. as it stands, most of what gandalf accomplishes could have also been done by glorfindel or some other sufficiently wise and powerful elf warrior (up to and including defeating the balrog).

the vast majority of games place fixed limits on character creation and advancement so that players start the game on a roughly even playing field and advance at a similar rate. that's why most games tell you to pick from a certain set of races and classes, or give you a budget of character points. you don't HAVE to do that. if balance is literally irrelevant to you, just throw away those limits, and tell players they can make whatever they want - whatever level, race, stats or abilities are appropriate for their character. but if you do have those limits, people expect them to mean something.

>>48109141
You know most spell casters weren't mere mortals either historically?

Merlin and co. were all half demons. Normal humans with no demon/god/supernatural stuff beeing involved beeing able to do magic is pretty new age, dare I say, weeb-bullshit itself..

>>48109239

Holy fucking god this.

I think this is the main thing that keeps this fucking arguement going ad infintiium because of some perceived notion that a dude who swings a sword can't use magic of any sort in a setting that is literally magic in about everything. But the idea of a swordsmen who's magic is expressed by his aura allowing him to pick up a stick and cut a shield in half because he's that badass of a fighter is to "anime" for people.

People who use "anime" as a pejorative for anything that isn't a mook who can do more then swing a metal stick should all be gassed.

>>48109343
>>48109292
martial/dnd players can't handle the bants

>>48109239
The spergs who play martial classes want it to be done without magic. This is why the book of weeaboo fightan magic was largely panned, despite being exactly what 3.pf needed.

>>48109461
>HURR

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>>48109490
How abut some feats that lets you to become a super-martial? Say, inreased size (with maxed str and con you're already a big guy, why not become even bigger in this high-fantasy place), blinding speed, iron guts, unnatural stamina...

>>48109141
>And how does he do it without magic or being a half-god?

They are half-gods and/or magical by any 'realistic' measure, you're just arbitrarily limiting them below skinny mr. genious cause you're an imaginationless cunt who has to lord your so called system mastery over people at their expense.

That or you'd be playing a game with the explicit premise that wizards are the bestest and everyone plays one. That would have been fine.

>Aragorn sure as fuck never had superpowers.

Its like you missed that whole comic that humorously explained why LotR would have been a fucking garbage campaign.

>>48109589
All good ideas. I honestly would have preferred if in 5e, every martial class got some skill monkey type features that gave them super human abilities in a narrow subclass of skills.

So a barbarian could eventually get extreme constitution abilities, like holding his breath for days underwater while fighting in full armor against krakens.

A fighter might get incredible feats of dexterity or strength, etc.

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>>48108167
You are welcome.

>>48108167
Because games are not movies or novels you twit.

>>48108597
That's horseshit. D&D invented levels in TTRPGs and every other system in response abandoned them immediately because they were an inorganic mess.

It's not like 1e didn't have levels and they were added later.

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>>48108167
Whats up with the bait today?

>>48108167
You can make it all "balanced" but you can't make it as fun.
Pretty much no matter what you do, in tabletop rpgs you can't make swinging a slab of iron on a stick as fun as warping the fabric of reality and channeling the will of the gods that reside above. Magic will always be more versatile, unless you turn it into shooting fireballs exclusively, a which point you might as well call em archers.

>>48108305
An angel, same with Saruman and Radagast.

And sort of the same as Sauron.

>>48108167
>I don't remember Boromir crying about Gandalf being too OP.
Gandalf was a GMPC guardian angel designed to keep the party on track without being too disruptive. Plus he disappeared for a while to give other characters a chance to shine.

In cooperative games, balance is important. If you want your caster to have access to encounter ending power, they need to become a glass cannon forced to depend on the protection of others. Those powers need to take time to come into play, and during that time they should be restricted in their options. Like only one other, non-casting, action per round. Also none of this quickened meta magic perks. Not unless martials are going to get quickened attack meta martial maneuvers that allow them to full attack as a free action. But wait. That's weaboo.
You know what's nice about building encounters for a balanced party of intelligent players? I'm force to be intelligent as well. I don't just shut down the casters and start chugging martial tears. I actually have to build encounters around the entire party and what they each bring to the table.

It's great.

>>48108167

It's a matter of scale in a game. Player characters should have fairly similar scales.

If magic-users acquire PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER that lets them open gates into heaven and shit lightning and part the seas with a wave of their hand, warriors of equal level in that setting should be the kind of epic heroes that cut mountains in half and take seven-league leaps and swim across the ocean in full armor fighting sea monsters. That kind of shit.

If the warrior classes' abilities are roughly limited to what a normal human being with a sword could actually do, then magic classes should be similarly limited, which means at high levels they're about one step up from chanting around a fire for three days and nights to make someone fall down the stairs one day maybe.

>>48109717

Levels by themselves are not a horrible concept. Some games do them right.

But not D&D.

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>>48109726
>Martials can only attack and nothing else
>Casters can do every kind of magic they want

I think we've identified a problem

>>48109726
>Implying a game with a good combat system can't make combat fun
>Implying the 'fun' in a RPG is choosing the right insta-win button from your spell list
>Implying there's nothing more 'fun' in RPGs than stupid power fantasies

It's fine anon, you can stay in your magical wizards-only hugbox playing out your Harry Potter fantasies.

You won't be missed.

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Leave it to wordswordswords to break it down in simple terms.

>>48109820
Except everything Roy can do a Wizard can do better. And a Druid. And a Cleric. And a Summoner. And an Alchemist. And a Bard. And a Warlock. And a Magus. And a Sorcerer. And an Oracle.

>>48109807
>It's fine anon, you can stay in your magical wizards-only hugbox playing out your Harry Potter fantasies.

If that kind of player was playing a wizards-only Harry Potter battle royale that'd be fine, but they insist some poor fuckers have to hang around and play muggles for them to lord over.

>>48109726
I playtested my homebrew system with a couple of friends yesterday. One played a martial character, the other a magic-user. The martial player did more in combat & had more fun.

So apparently you can "make swinging a slab of iron on a stick as fun as warping the fabric of reality", so easily in fact that I did it by accident.

>>48108705
Wait, I'm not sure about Bayonetta, but Dante and Asura are both martials.

And kicked the ass of the devil and god respectively, with fucking anger and nothing else.

>>48108797
>Levels must indicate combat prowess
My sweet summer child

>>48109806
>b-but I can aim for his legs and i-it's sorta like that slow spell and acrobatics and, and, and!
Even if you go for a more obscure magic system based of goetia or santeria or whatever the fuck you want, even if you make everything very "grounded", even if it's all balanced, it's still going to be more interesting than martial arts. Why? Because magic is not real, while martial arts are real. Guess which people are going to favour more when it comes to medium that's all about escapism and playting roles? Since the dawn of times people been "roleplaying" with "magic", performing various rituals they made up, offering prayers to different gods they made up, and you're saying that, given the opportunity that even the modicum of that was real, people would pick swinging stuff at each other over that? Or state that "yah they're both more or less equally gud"? I don't think so.
Besides, magic simply offers more options than just dealing lethal/non lethal damage and various stungs, such as divinaion, evocations, love spells, illusions, making charms etc.
>>48109807
Feeble cursed one.

>>48109997
>IT DOESN'T COUNT DANTE IS DEMONIC SPAWN
like merlin but d&d shitters don't care

>>48110024
But it should

What else are levels supposed to be?

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>>48109928
Muggles have objectively superior magic.

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If supernatural is supposed to be way better than mundane, then why do monks in 3.X and Pathfinder suck ass, even more than the mundane fighter?

4e monk is best monk. 5e monk can go cry.

>>48110044

Yeah, from what I recall Rowling even mentioned a fairly major part of the whole "wizards still live in secrecy" thing is that a wizard, even a really powerful one, would lose and lose hard to a normal muggle with a gun.

What defines a martial?

>>48108167
balancing is a poor idea in most roleplaying games. if you have players who don't mercilessly exploit every loophole, you dont have good players. Wizards are supposed to be able to fuck shit up from across the map, fighters are meant to protect them, rogues are meant to fuck up the opposing wizard with sneak and clerics are meant to keep them all alive. they are all op, but within the realms of common sense. a 20th level fighter (if he makes it past the wards and minions) should be all but able to pretty much OHKO a frail wizard.

The Tales series is shit

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>>48110133

Are you not eager for Tales of Ber/ss/eria?

>>48110128
>balancing is a poor idea in most roleplaying games
>proceeds to describe a balanced game

>>48108167
Gandalf also never used any significant amount of his power, not even as the White since the Ainur are not really allowed to do that anymore after what happened to Beleriand. Nobody complained about him because everyone knew he was essentially a fucking god except for the hobbits. After being resurrected even Aragorn (who as the last descendant of the kings of Numenor is technically the divinely appointed king of all mankind) immediately bow down to him. He also assures everyone that none of their weapons could possibly hurt him

Your analogy doesn't really make sense when you take into account how different Tolkien was to most fantasy settings

>>48110159
doujin where?

>>48108167

I don't remember Gandalf shaping reality with his mind. I remember Gandalf casting Light a couple of times, and Magic Missile once.

>>48109632
Can I get a source on that comic? Genuinely interested

>>48110247
Sounds like DM of the Rings. http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612

>>48110165
not balanced because the wizard gets to fuck everything 90% of the time and the fighter/rogue get's to maybe stab at the 50 AC wizard once only to fail and get save or dead as a reaction casting by the wizard.

mean while their wizard and cleric have already teleported out and left them for dead.

>>48110099
Which makes me ask, why don't wizards use guns too?
If muggle clocks can work at HSogwarts there's no reason a much simplier tech like firearms wouldn't.

>>48110275
Because wizards are fucking morons.

>>48109141
>Aragorn sure as fuck never had superpowers.
He's able to overwhelm Sauron's will and force his image into his mind with a Palantir. He can heal fucking everything with a bit of athelas. As a Dúnedain he can easily live for several hundred years, and his lifespan of 210 was abnormally short for royalty.

>>48110275

They appear to have a very shaky understanding of how most forms of technology work. The fact the news needs to explain what a gun IS when Sirius Black is on the loose suggests the thought flat-out doesn't occur to most wizards and the death eaters would consider it beneath them because they'd be admitting "Magic is Might" is a load of shit compared to a glock.

Not to mention it's set in the UK, so it's probably more difficult to get guns there.

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>>48110030
Riddle me this, anon:

Why should a martial be solely restricted to just attacking, nothing else, no utility; but a caster HAS to have all these wildly different types of magic, otherwise apparently they're worthless?

Why do you use "magic is better because it's more versatile" as an argument while also denying non-casting any versatility?

>>48110309
>They appear to have a very shaky understanding of how most forms of technology work.
Invalid argument when you have the majority of them being mudbloods.

>>48110275
To be fair there's very little in Harry Potter's universe that ever made any sense.

>>48109997

They're martials but I expect an unusual LA for being half demon lord or a cyborg with a magic reactor.

I'm not sure whether Bayonetta is martial either, or if Umbra Witches count as a race too.

>>48108301
What is Helm's Deep?

>>48108167
I'm gonna need a sauce.

>>48110398

Gandalf using his rocket-horse to carry a message to the riders of Rohan, who then came to reinforce the defenders? Not exactly "flying in there single-handedly fireballing masses of orcs."

>>48110372
Tbqh I always felt Rowlings far overreached herself in writing the series. Hogwarts works somewhat because it's very cool regardless of the inconsistencies, but the rest of the worldbuilding feels extremely half assed.

>>48110365
Who are taken out of their normal lives at a young age, and taken to a magic castle where they're trained in everything except how to function in the modern world; where they have to abandon anything electrical as magic interferes with it; where they're trained to accept slavery because "they want to do it", and any slave who doesn't want to is obviously mad (ah drapetomania); where they're taught to play a sport which almost drove an animal to extinction because they used it as the fucking ball; where they're not allowed to go to a sweetshop without parent's permission, but can be sent into a forest filled with monsters as a punishment.

>>48110309
A gun when used by a WIZARD would be dangerous, but besides the point of your post there's very a very simple spell for disarming people and another which makes it so muggles literally can't find the place you're trying to hide no matter how hard they try. If all the wizards in harry decided they wanted to take over the world they easily could

>>48110456

This would admittedly still require a grasp of tactics that clearly eluded the fucking "there are spells besides Avada Kedavra?" Death Eaters, but that's a pretty vast threshold.

>>48110303

It was unusually long for his time (late 3rd age).

Numerous generations before Aragorn had lived shorter lifespans, the last one to live longer than Aragorn was King Arvegil centuries before the fall of Arnor.

>>48110456
>there's very a very simple spell for disarming people
Yeah, but while "EXPELLIARMUS" is twelve letters, "BLAM" is just four.

>and another which makes it so muggles literally can't find the place you're trying to hide no matter how hard they try
Yeah, and they've all being hiding successfully from the rest of the world. Still not sure how this would help them dominate it.

>>48110275
Wizards have a janky understanding of technology and science in general. I remember one scene in particular where Hermoine is describing her parents' dental practice and Ron's dad doesn't have a fucking clue what she's talking about.

Part of it is that complicated technology tends to throw a fit in the presence of magic which hampers their development, though I'm not sure where JK draws the line on that.

The other part is that wizards can literally just say a word and kill the person standing in front of them, which makes guns redundant.

>>48109791
> Assuming Caster Superiority fags actually have friends and not just a bunch of unused half-assed character sheets.

For evidence, I point you towards >>48108705 who was unable to reference even other magician examples, but instead picked martials from Video Games.

I mean, D&D is pretty shit. But he could at least have come up with some Forgotten Realms shit or something.

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>>48110520
How can you fight an enemy that can be anywhere and evade and attack you using methods you do not understand and never will?

>>48110207
Translated to D&D Gandalf would probably be a multiclassed Cleric/Paladin/Wizard. He'd also be horribly optimized and his player would use cantrips and martial combat primarily.

>>48110520
It's possible to cast magic without actually saying the spell or even without a wand, most wizards are just too lazy to try to learn how to do it

Being able to indefinitely hide whenever the fuck you want, wherever you want with there being literally 0% chance of being found would be extremely useful

There's also the potion which gives you such amazing luck you can succeed at just about everything you want while under its effects, or the magical trinkets which turn back time

>>48110572
Damn, with the level adjustment for being an astral deva, that'd put him quite high up.

I guess that explains how he was able to beat a Balrog on his own.

>>48110546
Some of them do. They get pissed when I buff martials or nerf casters.

That's why I no longer run games for them.

>>48110437
>Who are taken out of their normal lives at a young age
They still come back every summer to spend three months with their muggle families. Even just watching a movie would clue them in to guns.
Seriously, are you telling me that Hermione or even just fucking Harry don't know what guns are? It's just shoddy writing.

>>48110525
>though I'm not sure where JK draws the line on that
If clocks work there's no reason guns can't. They're literally tubes with explosive inside. Seamus Finnegan shows that wizards can create explosions.
>The other part is that wizards can literally just say a word and kill the person standing in front of them
Can they? Curses seem to behave like arrows. Arrows that can be shot down mid air by another arrow (clashing avada kedavras bouncing away).

>>48108705
>Party is James, Asura, Dante and Bayonetta
>They go on and destroy abominations of all sorts
>James just shoots things and constantly looks like he's seen some shit
>Man, fuck Silent Hill

>>48110207
And he called down lightning to enhance his attacks, had the ability to summon creatures with his mind, telekinesis, exorcism, detect magic and alignment, magic shield, heat metal, deflect arrow, some force push thingy, foresight, telepathy (i guess?) and other shit.

>>48108259
>dudes who can swing a sword really hard

PRETTY hard, not REALLY hard, if they swing it really hard the impact will knock it out of their hands or they might damage it

l2rp

>>48110621
Gandalf is literally the GMPC, like most casters in fantasy. Magic in classical fantasy literature is a *plot device.* It's intentionally left vague and beyond the realm of understanding in most works so that the writer can pull something out of their ass in the event they write themselves into a corner.

But that doesn't translate well to a game, or rather most people who try to translate it fail horribly.

>>48109717
>every other system in response abandoned them immediately because they were an inorganic mess.

Apart from all those TTRPGs who have levels. Which is EVERY SINGLE FUCKING ONE OF THEM YOU MASSIVE FUCKING RETARD

>>48110567

Police states with flamethrowers and a massively fearful population?

Shit son, I don't see you grabbing a gun and setting yourself up as God in some shit hole African village with a bunch of friends after pitching in for guns and shit.

> Take over the world from separate but vastly inferior similar species. Have to rule fuckers who are incomprehensible and backwards.

Or

> Live forever eating candies that taste like celebrity feet

> Getting legal adults to shapeshift into jailbait that left hairs shed all over the place and fucking them.

> Mouth raping my house elf because I can.

> USING MAGIC FOR ALL CHORES

And you want to go fight 8 billion dudes with flamethrowers and shit? For what possible purpose?

>>48110705
fucking wizards. no sense of right or wrong.

>>48110705
I'm not saying it's wise, but if they wanted to they totally could.

It was either Book 6 or Book 7 that started off with the Muggle British PM talking to a wizard because Voldemort is causing some apocalyptic shit to happen and making the Muggles terrified, and they have no idea what's happening.

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What if you use magic AND guns

>>48110593
Also, there's other wonderfully bullshit spells like Fiendfyre which creates a enormous amount of magical fire which cannot be put out by any means and which is able to seek out living things to consume. And since it's dark magic it can't be healed, not even with magic.

And if they're going no-holds barred Imperio would literaly just enslave anybody the wizard wanted, instantly. Crucio is far more effective and less physically damaging than any non-magical torture, but there's no reason to use that unless out of spite since you can just point the wand at the guy, say "Imperio" and then calmly tell him to tell you all of his deepest secrets

>>48110360
Well, because in more mundane systems martials are limited to the limits of the human body, and even in more "anime" systems they're still limited to 20 feet jumps, CUHRAZEE sword juggling and so on, while magic still (usually) has a bunch of "peaceful" applications.
I am not saying that playing a martial can't be fun or badass, by no means so, and there can be plenty of reasons to play a martial character, such as using certain archetypes (not usually available to magic users) as a base for your character, filling up a role in the party and so on, but I still firmly believe that magic users are inherently superior solely on the merit of it being, well, magic, something completely out of the bounds of this material world. Again, as a crude example: a martial character can not enthrall a person or enemy by a love spell, they can only use their own personal charisma and wits, a martial character can not turn their party invisible to save from imminent danger, they can only attempt to disguise themselves or use the environment to blend in, a martial character can not see the future, they can only use their tactical genius to try and predict the possible outcome of things, and so on. And that's only regarding things that martials can sort of do like magic users. A martial can't curse their rivals, make deals with Death and pacts with the Devil, etc.
So yes, in most cases I do believe that exceeding the limitations of human body and mind is usually more fun than staying within those limits. You can limit a magic user to be as versatile as a martial user, but I have certain doubts you can do it vice versa.
As a vaguely related side note, I think the best "balanced" approach would be to leave combat and most of damage-dealing to the martial aspect of combat, while giving magic users access to more indirect spells that do not revolve around burning opponents to cinders. 7th sea sort of does that, but magic schools there are a bit too bland IMO.

>First off:
Gandalf does fuck all in the movies. As far as Boromir would have been concerned, Gandalf was a clever old man who wore a dress.

>Second:
In every modern edition of D&D, any Fighter would beat the everloving shit out of Boromir without any sort of contest. Boromir barely even had Cleave, much less something like Whirlwind Slash. Fighters are shit, but Boromir would have barely been above level 3, so that's a pretty shitty argument to make.

When your game is about people with superpowers, ALL of the character options should be people with superpowers, even if that superpower is just muscle based. You should be comparing Fighters to anime characters, not normal soldiers. For fucks sake, every time they make a "fixed Fighter" class, it's much better and can actually be in a party with wizards without being useful, but then when the next edition rolls around they make a class called "Fighter" and the only thing it can do is take more Feats (which are taxed to hell and back).

And of course 4e made the Fighter able to do a ton of shit, and was one of the most versatile classes, letting you use practically any Ability as your core ability, but you people bitched and moaned because it wasn't like your shitty grognard game.

>>48110822
>movies
There's your problem

>>48108167
Because you can actually fluff bullshit into swinging the stick. It's not that hard.
The strange thing about D&D/PF is that when it comes to martials it tries to go full realistic for the most part, but magicians get an absolute amount of bullshit.

The falling of the system it's to actually allow a class to have the 'superpowers' who can shape reality. Magic should be a force not always easy to control and that the mage has to treat with respect, not just the fuckin' snapping of a pair of finger.

Besides, asking 'Why the game should be balanced?' is retarded and autistic at best.

>>48110704
>every ttrpg has levels
Do you even know how wrong you are mate?

>>48110878
>D&D is the only TTRPG which has levels
Do you?

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>people not wanting balance in all things

>>48110822
Just feat tax the shit out of wizards and see how well they do.

>>48110857
>when it comes to martials it tries to go full realistic for the most part
Kek not really.
Or at least, they tend to fail pretty bad at it and they're arbitrary as fuck.
IMO the problem is more how they describe the weaboo fightan magic: if instead of writing "PC emulates bleach shit and appears behind target while snickering and tipping his helm, 1d6 slash damage" they wrote "PC aims for head, 10d12 slash damage, cleave allowed, iteratives allowed", they'd have literally mundane clearing anything in their threat range in a turn without sounding weaboo.

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>>48110742

You become OP as fuck.

>>48110889
Did I fucking say that? Did I say that?>>48110878

No mate, I didn't.

Some do. Some don't. Both systems have their benefits.

>>48108635
Vlad Taltos is hardly "ordinary." He is pretty good at both Draegaren and Eastern magic (which is almost unheardof), regularly uses soul eating weapons, and has a doodad that allows him to fuck up spells thrown at him said doodad eventually turns a soul eating weapon into an awesome-er soul eating weapon that makes makes him immune to soul eating weapons..

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>>48110303

And he still can't take a catapult hit to the chest and ignore it like every mid lv D&D warrior.

But D&D warriors are so weak right?

>>48110817
This is probably the most reasonable way I've seen someone argue that magic-users are inherently better than martials - though I'd argue that anyone can deal with death and demons, should they come across them, the martial just wouldn't be able to summon them (in stories it seems death and demons are fairly obliging though) - I still don't think I buy it, but you make a convincing argument.

That said though, I still think a you can have martials be inherently as good as a magic-user - a martial can run between raindrops, sense battle in their bones, inspire an army, or hide in plain sight can still be believable, as long as you can sell it (I will concede that this selling it is easier in stories)

>>48111030
Did I say they were? The difference is that LotR is a book, not a RPG system. There's no REASON for him to be able to take a catapult shot to the chest. It's still dumb to say he had no superpowers when he's easily the most magical human at the Third Age

>setting has people who can change reality on a whim
>highly skilled swordmen still exist and are considered worthwhile despite this

clearly this means that in matters combat the swordmen are objectively superior to the mages after all if not they wouldn't exist, therefor in game this should be represented by wizards being significantly less powerful than fighters of the same level

>>48111071

That's the problem with many D&D players.

When most people want to play a fantasy RPG they want to have adventures like people in those fantasy books or movies they know and like.

Not D&D's version of ultra heroic superhuman fantasy.

Is D&D a shit system? No, it's not. For the specific type of fantasy.

But it's a horrible system when people want to have fantasy adventures like in LotR or GoT. D20 just don't work for realistic or semi realistic settings. At all.

>>48111125

Nukes exist. Does that mean we no longer have normal soldiers?

>>48111155

Mages can be employed a lot more tactically than nukes, and based on a class system aren't any harder to train than fighters.

>>48111166

That's just another thing that's completely fucked up in D&D.

In reality D&D worlds would be like those anime where literally everyone goes to magic school.

>>48110817
thing is games such as D&D/pathfinder often make fighters incapable of doing things that are fantasy staples for said archetypes or heck even physically possible

after all try and find me how to properly do things like half-swording or the ancient fantasy staple of blocking a dragon's fire breath with your shield

>>48111005
>Did I fucking say that? Did I say that?

Yes. You did. >>48109717

>>48111196
You could play a magic high school setting in 3.X and it would work

>>48110930
Houseruling what spells the caster has access to seems the most reasonable solution. Since the power disparity stems from the wizard's awesome versatility, the GM should carefully hand pick what spells they can cast - saying "you can do these five things", to protect character niches. The spells should produce effects that other characters don't have access to, to make the wizard useful, but not overlap with the expertise of others, to not render them useless. This seems very fair and sensible to me.

>>48111204
Not me faggot. You're on an anonymous message board, so you'd do well to not assume you're always talking to the same person.

>>48111155
if it took 5 years of study to turn a soldier into a nuke that could be reused, didn't emit radiation and could size its explosion to exactly what was needed we wouldn't bother with shooty things

>>48108167
You may have the ability to shape reality with your mind but that does not mean you have the energy to do it

>>48111220
Well in that case you should get used to the fact that when you respond to a response asking "did I say that" then you'll be taken as the original poster the responder was responding to.

If you want to stand out take a trip faggot, thats what they're for.

>>48108167
Because, assuming we're discussing D&D (since it's always fucking D&D with this discussion), magic skills are not any more difficult to attain than fighting skills by RAW. A player can simply choose a caster at character-creation. If D&D were a game only played by people who want to create a good story and everyone was on board with the concept that wizards magicfucking every single problem is going to ruin everyone's fun, this wouldn't be a huge issue, but D&D has always been very gamist, and creating a game where the core rules give one person a huge advantage over another person for simply picking two different options that are presented by the rules as equally viable is not a good idea.

If the books upfront said 'hey people who have superpowers that can shape reality with their mind are objectively stronger than people who can't and the rules reflect that, if you decide to allow wizards in your game be aware that they're going to likely have a lot more agency than non-casters' then that'd be a different story

>>48111003
Nah in pic related you just have all that nifty utility magic but no magic aptitude to really break shit with your magic or use magic items effectively.

>>48111257
>you'll be taken as the original poster
Only if you're a dumb cunt who doesn't understand where they are.

>trip
I don't want to stand out you ignorant nigger. I'd post on somewhere other than fucking 4chan if I did.

>>48108167
>So why exactly should people with superpowers who can shape the reality with their mind be "balanced" with dudes who can swing a sword really hard?
Because levels.
Characters of the same level should be roughly the same power.
>b-buh why should a person who spent a certain amount of energy on being good at magic be the same as a guy who spent the same amount of energy being good at swording?
He shouldn't.
You realize that you can assign different experience values depending on the their classes to advance a level, right?

Levels are supposed to represent power scale, not power origin.

>>48111281
Not me faggot. You're on an anonymous message board, so you'd do well to not assume you're always talking to the same person.

>>48111213
The problem with this is that it's still up to the GM, and basically impossible to keep any sort of consistency on.
>>48110930
>We can fix Fighters by making everyone else just as useless
No.

>>48110303
>>48111071
Most of that isn't really his own magic or anything. Being long lived is a racial ability and being strong willed is just being a PC.

>>48110742
depends on the universe
in pic related the gun blows up and the demon you tried to power it with jumps out and explains to the onlookers why you were an idiot

>>48111310
My statements are valid regardless of whether your this faggot>>48111257, this one>>48111204 or this one>>48110704

Because even if they're all different people they're all a bunch of dumb niggers who don't seem to understand where they are.

>>48111321
>The problem with this is that it's still up to the GM, and basically impossible to keep any sort of consistency on.
It probably won't be very easy, and that's why it's better to keep the number of spells to just a handful to make it less hard for the GM. That's anyway how the original Vancian magic worked in the Dying Earth books, a wizard would know just a few spells and make do with trickery and bullshit otherwise - definitely less than dozens and certainly less than hundreds of spells that a D&D wizard in theory can have.

>>48111321
Sauron's greatest power is his sheer strength of will. Galadriel tells Frodo that he would many, many years of training before he could even attept subduing the will of the other ring-bearers (the One Ring's actual intended purpose, and something which Sauron could do effortlessly), and that if he tried to do that then it would destroy him

Having that little mental match is said to appear to have physicially aged Aragorn.Denethor only looks old because he uses the Palantir too much without being strong enough to use it properly

>>48108797
lvl 20 clown? Be very afraid.

>>48111370
Non of those are me faggot. You're on an anonymous message board, so you'd do well to not assume you're always talking to the same person.

>>48111481
>I'm just going to be a parrot.
Niggers can't even think for themselves.

>>48111466
*honk*

>>48109717
Most of the games I've read don't use classes or levels.
The only things that do are the ones that look like they're trying to parrot DnD.

>>48111442
and didn't Aragorn only manage it because the Palantir actually belonged to him (through his lineage) and ownership in Lotr has a significant influence especially on magical objects

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>>48111533

>>48111536
I wouldn't even bother with him, he's just going to respond with>>48111481 from now on like the dumb little nig he is.

>>48111540
He actually has to force the Palantir to obey him, so it's probably more among the lines that only the king would be powerful enough to use it

>>48111540
All power in LOTR is inherited with the exception of the Hobbits. They're the dark horse of the setting.

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>>48111569
>Being this butthurt

lmfao

>>48111720
>lmfao
you need to be an heterosexual white adult male to post here nigglet

>>48111321
I never said that it would fix Fighters, I was implying that feat taxing Wizards the same way Fighters are feat taxed would limit their usefulness.

Although strictly speaking reducing the power and ability disparity between martials and casters would be balancing the game.

>>48111752

I fail to see that ANYWHERE in the rules.

>>48111768
Just make a scale spell proficiency feat for casters.

Want to cast level 3 spells? you need three feats to do that. And make components actually cost a respectable amount. Fireball is 100gp a casting or something.

>>48111842
>being this dumb
I honestly can't tell if you're a troll or not.

>>48108597
Worked just fine in 4e

>>48111874
Not me faggot. You're on an anonymous message board, so you'd do well to not assume you're always talking to the same person.

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>That stupid fucking running

That and the gendo "push glasses up on nose and have a reflection off the glasses' is so annoying.

>>48111961
see>>48111569

Predictable, the nigger is.

>>48111998
Animating arms in motion is expensive anon.

>>48110572
I'd agree that in DnD terms, gandalf is much closer to a cleric or paladin than a wizard. He doesnt have a spell book and cast magic spells. He is just a being with some supernatural abilities that come from a deity

>>48111998
>>48112057

Air resistance idiots. She's not running at 20km/h.

At superhuman speeds waving your arms around would not be a good idea.

>>48112253
Except if you can reach superhuman speeds with your own body you have superhuman arms and bones. If she does it by magic she should have magical protection for her bones and body.

Humans running is most efficient when your arms are used to aid your motion. There's a reason the Flash still uses his arms even though he's fast enough to outrun things that don't really move. Like death.

>>48112253
"Waving your arms around" is part of proper running form. It's mostly done instinctively to keep your balance. It doesn't really matter when she's already doing something impossible, but it look jarring

>>48112253
Then you have retards like this.

>>48112253
Is your fedora folded >9000 times?

>>48108797
>>48110024
>>48110038
Levels indicate power, not necessarily combat. A level 20 warrior can defeat a necromancer.
A level 20 clown can make his dead emotionless soul laugh.

>>48108685
Clerics, Bards, and Druids advanced faster than a Fighter would. Wizards were barely slower at leveling than a Fighter and eventually overtook them.

>>48112336
*honk* :)

>>48111854
Make spell slots generic, have spell level equal the number of slots needed to have the spell, and add the ability to buff the spell by using additional spell slots. Any spell in the spellbook can be used when you want it as long as you have the components and free spell slots. You have to take magic school proficiency feat for each school of magic you have to use. Casting is a full round action. Taking the school mastery feat allows you to cast from that school without using components at the cost of prohibiting you from using two other schools of magic. Casting time can be reduced by taking a spell mastery feat but each spell mastery feat only counts towards one spell. Ergo, if I wanted to cast Fireball as a standard action without components I'd need three feats: Proficiency: Evocation, Mastery: Evocation,: and Spell Mastery: Fireball.

>>48112352
or just get rid of spell slots and use a power point pool.

Wanna cast a high level / specific school of spell? you need a feat to access it and it's going to eat up 90% of your pool.

Make Wizards sweat each time they cast.

>>48111697
Because they represent innocence and goodness, which have a power of their own.

>>48110456
It is quite old question.
What is faster?
Pulling the trigger or casting the spell?
I'd say that gun have superiority in this. In addition combat magic (at least in movies) is low range thing. While rifle could be 1km+ thing, so wizard would be dead before he knew about being dead. And I don't think there are permanent "protection from bullets" spells.

>>48110567
Works both ways. Camouflage, long range rifles, indirect fire, land mines, remotely detonated bombs. All things unknown to wizards, and kills them before they can cast their fancy magic.

Still muggleborn wizards not using magical guns and ammunition is stupid.

Prepared mage is a power to behold, but ambushed mage is just a commoner with d4 HP per HD, while martial guy is still X level of rip&tear incarnate.

>>48108167
>So why exactly should people with superpowers who can shape the reality with their mind be "balanced" with dudes who can swing a sword really hard?
They aren't. But an equal amount of XP or other advancement giving magic users more "superpowers" that can "shape reality with their mind" than is equivalent to the amount of increased skill with a sword the sword-user gets at the same level is a poorly constructed game system, and no amount of "but it's magic! of course it's better!" justification is going to fix that. Magic being better should not translate to "you can get good with magic faster, and that it is just better than an equally trained swordsmen at each level."

>>48112374
That's kinda what I was going for. Using the system described a 3.5 level 20 Wizard would have 40 spells slots in total.

>>48112409
>And I don't think there are permanent "protection from bullets" spells.
Thing with JKR's magic is if she needs a spell to move the plot forward, distract the audience with a shitty sub plot, it exists.

If muggles started hunting and shoot wizards and witches then they would start teaching kids spells that make muggles miss you, ignore you, or fail to perceive you.

>>48110111
in most contexts it's just a shorthand for "non-spellcaster".

that's why monks are typically considered martial - even though they use magic, they have more in common with fighters than wizards because they don't have spells.

>>48112292

Flash is just bullshit.

Why do you think fast cars don't have pointless shit sticking out?

The animu "ninja" run makes perfect sense if they are moving crazy fast.

>>48112374
>>48112374
Thats always the solution with magic in any setting. It needs to be something significant. It needs to take tons of energy and absolutely exhaust the user, or it needs to have dire consequences and corrupt them. In settings like Lord of the Rings or even the wheel of time, you get those limits. Even in the magic -heavy world of the wheel of time, it has severe consequences. It drives people insane, it's physically exhausting, etc. It requires physical and mental training and is as much a hard skill to learn as fighting, and probably even more so.

>>48111204
That was me, and every system following D&D dropped levels. Levels were not common in RPGs for a long time.

>>48112520
Without the arm movement you can't run all that fast without falling in your ass. You shouldn't be able to run fast enough for air resistance to force you to put your arms like that without falling in your ass long before. It has to be handwaved from its core

>>48112292
>>48112300
>>48112305
>>48112330

Are you legitimately retarded or just pretending?

Normal humans run so slow aerodynamics don't matter.

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>>48108167
>the are of physical combat should be lesser in a fight than people who throw around energies, and run some stairs
get bent and bit the pillow you fag, because your asshole farts up better shit than that.

>>48112571
>Without the arm movement you can't run all that fast without falling in your ass.

You can. You will just run slower.

If they are running at, say 100 miles/h minimizing air resistance becomes VERY important.

>>48112578
The whole scenario of super-speed is nonsensical at its core. It's superfluous to make such a tiny concession to reality. And the character would also need a superhuman sense of balance to be able to run like that

>>48112616
>You can. You will just run slower.
What did I say?

>>48112625
They already have super speed

Fuck it. give em super balance

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>>48112625

At that speed you are not even really running. It's more like you are kicking the ground to make high speed leaps.

And who do you think can accelerate to higher speeds, these guys?

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>>48112731

Or her?

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>>48112549
The opposite side of that is of course to basically make magic a superpower that can be thrown around willy-nilly with only arbitrary limits

Getting around Super Wizards while also allowing Super Martials is one of the many reasons I switched over to Mutants&Masterminds for my fantasy games
I wanted D&D high fantasy high powered nonsense but didn't want D&D I also wanted something my players could easily learn so going with another D20 system seemed like a no brainer

So my games run the gamut between Conan level low magic Sword&Sorcery to fantasy Justice League

>>48112764
and it works?
I am not familliar with Mutants and Masterminds, but I always figured it's for modern settings only

>>48112731
>>48112750
I don't see your point other than a nitpick. It still doesn't change that super-speed running/kicking the ground to make high speed leaps is silly unless you have secondary superpowers to support it

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>>48108167
>Not able to cleave a demon the size of a large house in half
>Not able to run so fast you turn invisible
>Not so agile that your very afterimages are solid enough to fool your adversaries into attacking them

Sounds like your martials are shit.

>>48112498
Permanent is the key word. Magic was shown as something that works for some time then it stops to work. Or maybe spells needed concentration, I don't remember.
So if such spell would exist it would mean nothing for a wizard that is not suspecting an attack.

It is true that author can invent a solution to any problem but that argument is stupid. Even when presented magic contradicts itself.
>Permanent invisibility cloak is made by Death himself artifact.
>Super detailed map, with all people marked on it is made by high school students as prank tool.

>>48112520
You don't seem to understand how bipedal running works. Or physics. Try to graduate high school before you post here again kid.

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>>48112818

There is a reason why fast sport cars don't look like this.

Human chest would be making crazy air resistance if the human in question was running superhuman fast in erect position.

What's the answer? Lowering your body. And at that point waving your arms for balance would look even more silly.

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>>48112930

You seem to be retarded.

>>48112578
Fuck you people are dumb. Aerodynamics has nothing to do with this. It's a matter of balance and control.

Do animu ninjas have fucking control surfaces growing out of them or something?

>>48112788
It works great due in part to the system making every power an effect
So say you want to hurt something up close that would be the DAMAGE power DAMAGE can be Adamantium Claws, Magical Flaming Fists, a sword or you can make it ranged and it can be a Fireball, Heat Vision, or an M16 the only thing the system cares about is the Effect the Modifiers and the Rank the number associated with it you can fluff it however you want

In terms of using the system for a fantasy setting you should check out M&Ms 2e sourcebook Warriors&Warlocks that deals specifically with fantasy

here is a DL link for those interested https://www.mediafire.com/folder/026war1l4oo42/Mutants_and_Masterminds#026war1l4oo42

>>48112927
>Magic was shown as something that works for some time then it stops to work.

It was only shown such when it was convenient to the plot. Magic in HP has no enforceable rules, none. It just pretends to. Plenty of magic items are manufactured that have everlasting magic.

>>48112976

No. They have magic and superhuman balance instead.

>>48112960
Watch it's neck and body. What is it doing with them?

The same thing we do with our arms.

I understand you're not an athlete and have never participated in any athletic pursuit, but at least look at the evidence before you speak.

>>48113026
You can attach quite a few different effects to those to make them mechanically different, too.

>>48112927
You can buy a dozen shielding spells that last for a month from a goddamn prank store funded by a rich kid's fortune.

>>48112931
You strictly need to have superhuman balance to not simply fall over before you even reach that speed, and even more so that you can keep it up using that awful form. Superhuman strength and endurance go without saying so you don't rip yourself to pieces

>>48113061
So why aren't their arms super human?

Aerodynamics has nothing to do with this.

Do you know what putting your arms back like that does? Nothing. It doesn't reduce your drag by any respectable amount. Unless you're telling me that ninja's are running at 1100m/s.

>>48113067
>Watch it's neck and body. What is it doing with them?

Watch an actual video of them running. They don't use neck when running in a straight line. And use wings as aerodynamic brakes.

And we are talking about people running many times faster than them with MAGIC.

Next time when you are riding a car pretty fast take your hand out of the window and feel the air resistance.

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>>48113091
I know I was just trying to use the simplest example

>>48113217
>And use wings as aerodynamic brakes
You actually are retarded. And they do bob their necks and heads forward/back up/down all the time while moving. Same with chickens, same with kiwi's, same with emu.

Go take an Aerospace Engineer course when you graduate kid. Maybe then you'll actually have a proper grasp on aerodynamics and the speeds and scales at which drag is significant.


Also if your whole argument is "magic" then physics need not apply, so the whole arms back deal is not for reducing drag, but for looking like a tool. It would instead be better to have your arms tucked close to your body, near or holding items and weapons that you might need.

The 'arms back' running form is for retards who think they look cool.

This went from caster supremacy to ostrich running form

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>>48113374
what a roller coaster of emotions huh /tg/?

>>48113405
Just imagine >>48113217 and >>48113341 being read aloud by very angry people

>>48113437
More disappointed than angry. In this wonderful age of wealth and with access to the near sum of human knowledge people choose to remain ignorant in order to justify their fantasies.

Thank God progress won't stop for humanity.

>>48113374
Digression is a bitch. Though this isn't likely temporary.

>>48113341
>>48113217
http://i.imgur.com/7k46YUY.gif
ACCELERATE
(I'd post it here but it's more than 8 meg)

>>48113549
>http://i.imgur.com/7k46YUY.gif
Oh hey it's using it's wings for balance and bobbing it's head while in motion. Who would have thought.

>>48113217
>aerodynamic braking
Do they also perform multitrack drifting?

Or is that the hyena's chasing them down?

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>>48113590
>Hyenas with aerodynamic braking multitrack drifting
That sounds terrifying

>>48110128
>a 20th level fighter (if he makes it past the wards and minions) should be all but able to pretty much OHKO a frail wizard.

Unless that "frail wizard" is frail in the sense of being significantly lower than 20th level, the Fighter cannot do this. In *any* edition of D&D. Usually because the Wizard can cast Fly without spending any spell slots they actually use to win level-appropriate encounters, which means the Fighter is going to have a Hell of a time just hitting the bastard. The Rogue has the same problem. Even in editions that have passably good class balance, this isn't how class balance works in D&D.

>>48113649
>gnolls in train space.

>>48113061

>This is how your average magicfag thinks

>>48113778
I like how wizards can have magic *and* superhuman balance but martial characters can't have either.

Same old bait as always, 240 replies.

You guys are really dumb.

>>48108167
As far as I'm aware you cannot shape reality with your mind.

The idea that shaping reality with your mind is just as retarded as shaping reality with your emotions and hey, plenty of shows have it that the power of friendship or the power of the MC's rage gives them magical powers or super strength.

So really, I see no reason why the dude who learns to swing a sword really hard isn't utilizing magic from swinging swords so hard

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>>48108167

Because you have to wiggle your fingers in a very precise pattern for six seconds while chanting a tongue-twister to get a highly specific, pre-determined warping of reality that might not even be all that useful, and all of the good shit takes decades of study to learn.

By which point Beeflord McFighter has achieved the rank of Mighty Heracles, Son of Zeus, and can crush a dragon's skull on his forehead like a beer can.

>>48108167

Because a Fighter isn't a normal guy with a sword. He's Guts. He's Lu Bu. He's an anti-army force. He's powered by chuuni and legends.

You could just run wizard-based campaign and let them specialize into various schools, including muscle magic.

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>>48109239
>you will never play as the Man of Muscle Mystery

>hoped to have intelligent discussion on the nature of magic in various fantasy settings, and their translation into game systems
>neckbeards arguing over how running works and trying to reconcile superheroes running at lightspeed with highschool physics
never change /tg/

>>48114086
To be honest we have this thread every other day and practically none of them bring intelligent discussion

>>48113652
> the Fighter is going to have a Hell of a time just hitting the bastard.
>fighters are only capable of using swords

>>48114119
Because it's not something that can be intelligently discussed on any level. Magic was originally an explanation for the unexplained. Then it was utilized as a plot tool for writers and story tellers. Now people have tried, for whatever reason, to constrain it while still giving it the feeling of being unconstrained. It was poorly done. This is the result.

>>48110822
>Gandolf was a clever old man in a dress
That slayed me.

>>48114155
in 5e and 3.X they have to restrain themselves to a single weapon type thanks to feat tax and fighting styles.

>>48110817
As someone who's played 2nd edition 7th sea, being a mundane Castillian priest seems way more interesting than any fucking magic using dickfuck

>>48108307
/thread

>>48114212
3.PF? Yeah, they do.

5e? That shit's pretty broad. And there's no taxes on feats.

>>48114212
anyone playing a fighter, even one that is 20str and 6 dex, is absolutely fucking retarded if they don't have a back up ranged weapon

>b-but anon, my to-hit with ranged weapons is garbage!
Yes it is, but a fucking -3 to hit, hits more often than never taking a shot.

Also:
>being a high level fighter
>not carrying around siege weaponry in an extradimensional space
>not lighting up that faggy mage with artillery fire

Has anyone tried enforcing multiclasing to balance casters?

>>48114086
Did you not read the OP?
Starting a thread with a shit post can only result in a shit thread.

>>48110038
Prowess in general, meaning to say their ability in all aspects of life. A level twenty rogue would be more akin to Carmen Sandiego, or hell, maybe Solid Snake, where we are saying a level twenty warrior would be more like Beowulf or King Arthur. Rogues are the skilled tinkerers and thieves that steal monuments out from under the noses of militaries, the ones sent in to places full of super powered psychos and told to remove them all because they need someone to stop the destructive power they have gotten. Likewise, level 20 martials are no mere mortals, but those who have become legendary for feats of strength or being leaders of men. They should likely have methods of doing some normally impossible feats if by virtue of them having left mere humanity behind long ago. We are talking means to show them able to lift loads ten men struggle under with ease, or be more like stories of mortal warriors.

Or hell, give some rules for combat in melee to spice things up, because half the time I have to wing dismemberment..

>>48109141
Who says martials can't be magical or divine in nature too?

Achilled and Hercules were blessed from the get-go, Diomedes was such a baller he gained the favor of the gods and managed to best multiple of them in combat

An epic wizard can planeshift and summon demons and solars, an epic martial should be holding up the sky, crushing mountains, swordfighting gods, ripping off the heads of dragons and other absurd feats of heroism

An epic thief should be stealing stars out of the night sky, sneaking their way into asgard and cheating death at cards

Epic bards should be singing a song so sweet the sun sets early to come close and listen better.

Gaining more attacks per round is not how you make epic martials equivalent to wizards

>>48109399

This. Wizards that can do more than occasionally predict things and dispense sage advice and perform once-per-story miracles are an anime/vidya sort of trend.

>>48114212
That could not be less true for 5e.

>>48112764
I always hated the lack of general rules in m&m. It feels like a half assed system that they didn't fully flesh out.

So why exactly should a parlor magician who can pull a rabbit out of a hat or light a candle 1/day be "balanced" with dudes who can cleave an ocean in half or jump to the Moon because they do 1000 push-ups every day?

>>48114267
There's no taxes on feats but there's still fighting styles that a fighter is shoehorned into. Good lock hitting a level 20 wizard with a bow unless you specialized in range weapons.

>>48114294
Except it's not a -3 to hit, it's just a +20, which isn't enough to make up for the wizards insane defense against ranged weapons.

>also
All requires magic of some kind so you might as well give fighters access to better muscle magic.

Plus siege weapons require even more effort to use effectively than most weapons and are still terrible.

>>48108307

Pretty easy if you play below level 10 or so. For DnD, anyway.

>>48114486
>There's no taxes on feats but there's still fighting styles that a fighter is shoehorned into. Good lock hitting a level 20 wizard with a bow unless you specialized in range weapons.
Literally a +2 to hit difference between archery fighters and melee fighters in 5e.

>All requires magic of some kind
you mean like their magic armor, and magic weapon, and magic cloak, and magic boots, and magic rings, and...

>Except it's not a -3 to hit, it's just a +20, which isn't enough to make up for the wizards insane defense against ranged weapons.
>Plus siege weapons require even more effort to use effectively than most weapons and are still terrible.
"Haha behind my windwall no arrow can touch me!" *cannon fires* "Perhaps I should rethink this."

What's the most balanced system anons?

>>48114441
Then perhaps you would prefer GURPS which has rules for everything from breathing and walking at the same time to what benefits your dicks texture gives you

>>48114632
Kek because I don't like the 5 rules m&m has i should play GURPS?
That seems like a jump.

>>48114615
GURPS I think, because you can balance stuff yourself.

>>48114615
The one you make yourself, tailored to the game you and your mates want to play

They shouldn't be. They also shouldn't be in the same game.

>>48110128
Martial/caster imbalance is not about PvP because tabletop RPGs aren't usually about PvP.

Martial/caster imbalance is about the Wizard being able to do literally everything, while the Fighter can only 5-foot step and full attack. The Wizard can excel in any scenario, encounter or puzzle, while the Fighter is only good for hitting things for damage.

>>48114359
Wasn't Thoth-amon's most powerful spell either Dominate Person or Polymorph?
That places him at Level 9-10 max, which is honestly as strong as anyone really needs to get in fantasy.
Man, the power creep for minimum expected human hero power level really took its toll.

>>48112976
At high speeds I can see them using their arms as control surfaces

>>48108167

Thankfully, it's only really an issue in 3.X.

>>48108508
>implying levels don't also account for wealth and a level 20 fighter can't afford to buy an item that can stop time and fuck physics in the ass.

What a scrubshitter cry baby bitch, why would you save that cap? Wait that wasn't YOU was it...?

>>48108797
Levels indicate experience and wealth more than anything else. "Power" is only relevant to what you put those levels into.

>>48114981
>"J-Just buy an item!"
God damn I hate this mentality, and not just in casterfags.
>I gotta have this +5 keen vorpal bane sword or muh build is worthless!
Who the fuck even makes those? Hephestaus?
Of all the things in D&D logic I hate, this I hate the most.

>>48115061
lol it was you, you little bitch haha.

>I-I hate buying/crafting tools to do my j-job!
Shit logic.

>>48109843

Which is something that has more to do with third edition being a fucking mess of a system than anything to do with the concept of Fighter as a whole.

I mean, it's not hard to make martials great, it's just that 3.Xfags tend to shit on it because they cannot accept Fighters who are just as useful as the mage.

>>48108369
This is a purely modern idea in D&D. In AD&D 2e and earlier, classes were explicitly not balanced to each other on a level to level basis, but on an XP to XP basis. You also were probably gonna die long before getting the nearly million XP needed for a magic user to hit the level cap. And spell components and the act of casting spells mattered a lot more. You had to declare at the start of the round, before rolling initiative (which was rolled per round) that you were casting a spell, and everyone could tell you were doing it. If you got hit at all, even 1 damage, you lost the spell. High level mages had plenty of ways to mitigate that of course, but at that level the game was way less about clearing dungeons, because the whole party had castles, and temples, and dungeons of their own, and thieves' or assassin's guilds.

>>48114570
and that +2 difference means they won't hit the wizard. 75% of the time. In the mean time he's raining fire and death down on them.

>magic blank and blank
And yet people claim that 5e fixed magic dependency

>cannon misses.
Hah! even with broken shitty homebrewed gunpowder weapons you still suck! eat spells while you take another turn to reload and some more while you move to aim the weapon again, seeing as I've relocated to a higher altitude!

>>48115133

Spellcasters don't need external tools to use their abilities. Why can't martials be innately magical? For example, the same cheap sword that I've taken care of and trained and fought with becomes a magical weapon simply by my using it?

Hell, even Gut's Dragon Slayer isn't innately magical in and of itself but becomes so after fighting Apsotles for so long and the one time he and the part did get what was essentially a magic item walmart Guts said no and kept Dragon Slayer.

>>48114924
You mean mach 3 right? when they're balls of heat pushing a compressed wall of air with diminishing returns no matter how low to the ground they are and how pointing their hats are?

>>48115133
Here's your (You).
I'm not even the Levels = balance guy, because they obviously don't and that's the way the game was (awfully) designed.
What I am asking is why the fucking sudden is every sword supposed to be goddamn Excalibur you can buy on a whim?
Who makes that shit? Where does it come from?
Why aren't the people that can make these superweapons, who are obviously powerful casters, using them to fix everything?
Where does all the money you find in dungeons even come from?
Oh, and if a Fighter is supposed to craft stuff, why does he need to take caster levels to do it? Seems like the mage is still doing everything in that case.
There's a difference between using better tools or specialised tools to do a better job and throwing money that shouldn't exist at a problem that shouldn't exist to make it go away. Go play Final Fantasy if you want to play a Profetieur or whatever the hell they go by these days.
>Shit logic.
Better than 'nuh uh!' and 'you're just mad!'.

>>48114747
Have you never had an evil wizard as the BBEG? Or the general of the dark hordes?

Now, your point absolutely still stands, but it's worth expanding on because those classes are fully available to the DM for NPCs too, like your opponents.

>>48114441
What lack of general rules? It's got a good rounded set of basic shit.

>>48113652
I havent gotten the chance to actually play any tabletop RPG, but if lvl 20 is as powerful as it sounds the fighter should be able to stomp the ground so hard it flies into the air to give him equal elevation to the wizard or to send a flying cut slash or something like that

>>48114981
The item the Wizard can also create and use, and because they make it, it costs less, AND they are less gear dependent then the fighter, so they have a lot more money to throw around?

That item, you dense sack of shit?

>>48115404
Well the damage and combat system killed it for me. I hated them both.

>>48115405
That's what anima does.

>>48115457
So...you disliked the rules, not the lack of general rules. And what's wrong with the damage system, anyway? It's a hell of a lot more dynamic then some shitty HP system.

And the combat system is basic D20. Roll 1d20, add bonus, automiss on a 1, crit on a 20.

>>48115492
Idk I guess it just felt too up to interpretation and not well fleshed out enough for my liking.

>>48115476
What's anima?

>>48115518
Anima Beyond Fantasy. It's a d100 TTRPG. You can grab all the books PDFs free from Google.

>>48108167
>So why exactly should people with superpowers who can shape the reality with their mind be "balanced" with dudes who can swing a sword really hard?

They shouldn't. But the people with super powers who fuck reality into doing what they want should not be an option for people to play. They should be restricted to plot devices used to create an enjoyable narrative.

Like, you know, Gandalf was.

>>48115314
>Spellcasters don't need external tools to use their abilities.

Neither do Martials.

Why can't martials be innately magical?
Same reason casters can't be innately martial. Well they kinda are but they're shit at it without magic.

I mean there's a plethora of options for magic gear and intelligent weapons it could work.

>>48115352
Because when you're a level 20 fighter a basic broadsword (pardon the pun) isn't going to cut it.

You can't make your own magic items/gear but why can't your wizard buddy or craftbitch cohort do it or help? You're a fighter that's what you do, not a magic man. You yourself can make the actual blade to save time while your wizard buddy or caster/crafter cohort do the magic part.

This is why "class" is a thing in the first place, you're meant to be pieces of the puzzle that work together.

Who makes it where it comes from and why it's here is kinda the GM's job. This is basic Hero's journey stuff and you're complaining about resorting to magic weapon/items to do more than being hired muscle.

Maybe in your games the GM dosen't allow leadership, or time to craft items, or access to magic outside of playing a caster. But that's not the system's fault, it's yours for playing with a shitter GM and throwing your butthurt around like the OP and his thread.

I'm sick of everyone complaining about DnD/PF being so broken and don't even understand how it works. Won't play shit else though will you? Faggot.

>>48115509

Not that anon but that's because most games don't try to quantify every little thing about what your character can do and just leaves the outcome to the die and GM.

>>48115518
But to further explain my point, a high level martial char with a strength of 15-20 ( I don't remember exactly which end of that scale it's on, closer to 20 though I'm sure. also note that 10 would be the strongest human in existence) is capable of striking the ground with a force large enough to create an earth quake.

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This bait is old and stale, yet there are 309 replies. How is this so?

A Wizard like Gandalf is a Master Wizard and also a Grand Master in the Arcane Arts. He can cast spells by his Will alone, knowing the "muscle memory" of his mind and also being so experienced with his spirit and the spirit of magic that he is completely in tune with magic.

It is likely that your typical Wizard or Sorceror player is an Apprentice or maybe a Journey Caster, and is not properly "tuned" to magic. They know many useful and useless spells, but still have to recite the mantras to properly cast the spell. Their willpower still is not muscle memory but is in fact knowledge as power. The untrained mind is only so quick. A berserker would quickly close the distance on an unskilled Wizard and cut flesh before being turned to dust.

That is how my group understands this "balance." We did one of those "our characters visit themselves in the future" and the Wizard became extremely powerful, but mostly used his powers to buff his very mundane warrior friends. In the end, the Wizard became very humble, and gained a boost to casting time to reflect training with himself in the future. Although, the group did go kill the 7 year old who would eventually become the BBEG of their future.

>>48115556

>This is why "class" is a thing in the first place, you're meant to be pieces of the puzzle that work together.

Except that mages are like puzzle pieces made of putty while martials are that one fucked up puzzle piece that you accidentally sat on so now it doesn't fit right anymore.

>I'm sick of everyone complaining about DnD/PF being so broken and don't even understand how it works. Won't play shit else though will you? Faggot.

He said, immediately after accusing the other guy of being butthurt.

Oh, the irony.

>>48115435
The item the fighter has to buy and the wizard can just cast you stupid piece of shit.

Fighter doesn't = Wizard they both need magic to do what the other does so the gear dependent thing doesn't really hold water.

>>48115562
I understand. Outside of the damage and combat systems M&M actually has a really good system for super powered chars. I just prefer a better defined combat system is all.

>>48115556
>>Spellcasters don't need external tools to use their abilities.
>Neither do Martials.
>Why can't martials be innately magical?
>Same reason casters can't be innately martial. Well they kinda are but they're shit at it without magic.
>I mean there's a plethora of options for magic gear and intelligent weapons it could work.

And here you have the basic trouble of "classes"

Just because you have a PhD doesn't mean you can't learn to be a soldier, but when it comes to games and fantasy if your a wizard you can't swing a sword to save your life and if your a martial you can't cast spells because your suppose to be a dumb meat shield

>>48115583

Stale bread makes good pudding, anon.

>>48115556
>>Spellcasters don't need external tools to use their abilities.
>Neither do Martials.
You mean monks. Monks don't need external tools.

Every other martial does.

That's part of being a martial character, is you're better than average with physical weapons and equipment.

Unlike casters who not only don't need them, but if they decide to use them are great with them. Or they just summon something better than them.

>>48115583
Sometimes all you need is a hand dug worm to catch the most fish

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What kind of janky suspension of disbelief allows a bearded prick to throw fire and summon extradimensional mansions but not for a martial character to be anything more powerful than an average human?

>>48115623

How would you define "better defined?"

Because having a flowchart to explain how grappling is supposed to work doesn't make it better defined, it just makes it a pain to use in an actual game.

>>48115618
>Except that mages are like puzzle pieces made of putty while martials are that one fucked up puzzle piece that you accidentally sat on so now it doesn't fit right anymore.

Maybe in your shit games. Where the "putty" pieces can't fix the "broken" ones. And you're left with an incomplete image and blaming the puzzle company and not yourself for sitting on it due to a lack of understanding of how to put a puzzle together.

>Oh, the irony
He said, with no argument and going back to eating his bowl of shit quietly and contempt.

>>48115607
the problem is in treating Gandalf like some "master of arcane arts". He's not. Tolkien basically intended that he was like an Arch-Angel of sorts. He's not some guy who studies spellbooks and casts spells with mana or whatever. He's an angelic being. It's like in the Bible when an angel comes down and blinds people with light, or angels blow trumpets and break shit, or whatever. Gandalf's "magic" does the same thing. Except, on top of that angelic power, he's also a warrior and a war leader.

>>48115688
"Better defined" because otherwise the people I play with will manipulate and break the system at the first chance. So clear cut rules and damage numbers are needed.

>>48115556
It's a 'team game' where one guy is gimped all to hell and requires the help of every other member of the team to function at half of their level.
Does something about that seem, dare I say it, unbalanced?
>>48115699
If your answer to one half of the team being left behind by the system is that the other half is supposed to fix them (which is almost literally your argument), it's a badly balanced system.

>>48115685
90% of the /tg/ community are non-athletic retards that think they're smart and cunning and charming.

It's a power fantasy to play the mind bending reality warping harem gathering wizard who's better than everything and everyone else. It's a safe place for those who've failed to make anything respectable of themselves.

It's not about immersion or balance or player choices. It's simply the consumer base is desperate for gratification and this is what they asked for.

>>48115662
Actually Monks are one of the most item-dependent classes in the game. He's a martial with less than full BAB with the unique ability to enchant his fist like a weapon. Even then the Monk needs magic/aid like everyone else to fly, teleport, heal others, or anything that doesn't involve his fists.

Casters for that matter need magic to be worth a damn with weapons if they decide to use them. Summons are weak as shit and easy to counter.

>>48115720
Plus having the rules so open to interpretation breeds inconsistency. Which bugs the shit out of me.

I thought ostriches stuck out their wings for balance

>>48115699

>Maybe in your shit games. Where the "putty" pieces can't fix the "broken" ones. And you're left with an incomplete image and blaming the puzzle company and not yourself for sitting on it due to a lack of understanding of how to put a puzzle together.

In a world where mages can end encounters in one turn, there isn't much reason to ever fix the broken ones since the resources that you're wasting on fixing a broken class could be spent on defeating the enemy.

Which is an issue with how poorly designed the system is.

>>48115720
>>48115772

It honestly just sounds like you need to play with better people and learn to be less autistic.

>>48115832
Easier said than done. To both.

Or I could just, use a better system.

>>48115727
>It's a team game where one guy is gimped to all hell-

Yeah that's "unbalanced". Apparently the gimped guy can't excel at his own class's abilities for some reason. Good job on still not "understanding how a puzzle" works.

>If your answer to one half of the team being left behind by the system is that the other half is supposed to fix them (which is almost literally your argument), it's a badly balanced system
It isn't my argument, I never said the martial pieces were broken while the casters are like putty you did. Imo if that's the case your GM is bad, not the system.

>>48115760
So what you're saying is that D&D is absolute shit.

Got it.

>>48115811
Again you're confusing a poorly designed system with a poor GM. Encounters that end in one turn? How shit can you be at this?

>>48115760

>Summons are weak as shit and easy to counter.

Even the weakest summons are worth it due to the fact that you can summon multiples of them and interpose them between you and the enemy.

I had one situation where we were fighting a chaos beast and the party (sans the retard fighter who charged in like a moron) managed to beat it back using ranged attacks while I kept summoning Lemurs to wall it away and chip away at its health.

Even if summons are counterable, how likely are you going to run into an enemy caster that has access to a banishment spell over something that's less situational?

>>48115879
So what you're saying is you're retarded and have poor reading comprehension.

Got it.

>>48115854

The issues you bring up are personal issues caused by you playing with power gaming scrubs and being too autistic to live and let live.

Even the best of games will be less fun if your party is comprised of power gamers who only want to win at all costs.