/cofd/&/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness General

Last thread there was a consensus that Arcanthus are OP in 2e MtAw.

My question is this:
If 5 players are trying to create a powerful cabal, would it be more OP if they all went Arcanthus, or if they covered all of their bases by each going into a different path?

Also, is there any path whose Arcana seem underpowered?

>>47821336
>Also, is there any path whose Arcana seem underpowered?

Obrimos got shafted HARD in 2e

>>47821336
>Last thread there was a consensus that Arcanthus are OP in 2e MtAw.

If by "last thread" you mean "since the fucking beginning of 2e and every thread with the damn 2hu guy," then yeah.

Fate and Time are brick shittingly overpowered even by Mage 2e standards.

There's a huge huge HUGE problem with Prime in that it doesn't give us any fucking idea as to how does manipulating Truth work.

What happens when you Make something Truth? Unmake Truth? Pattern two Truths together?

What happens when you Perfect a Truth? etc

>>47821832
Can you use the Practice of Veiling to make Lies by concealing the supernal Truth?

>>47821861
"This statement is false!"
Add a bit of Mind and you can break someones brain with that.

>>47821832
Touhoufag please go.

Anyone got suggestions for core Mysteries? I might go with Irises. Tons of 'em, just leading to places like the Hedge and Shadow and Underworld and maybe physically into Astral Realms, or old, foreign and magical tombs or ruins. Bit of LA meets Salamanca, because I'm uncreative.

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>>47822283
I'm not him, I don't post anime girls and can speak in a less ...stilted?.. manner.

I do empathise with a lot of his views, but that is irrelevant here. I have mostly written off Mage 2E as usable at least until they actually make a printed version, but this is a thing that is quite apart from what Time/Fate can or can't do.

What does it mean for someone to do (insert Practice) to Truth? Most importantly, we have seen what Knowing Truth does (you Pierce Deception), but what Unveiling Truth does?

Words of Fire seems to imply that you can't use Prime to assess the workability of theories, but that can be attributed either to a copout or to that the spell is the wrong Practice. Thus, it is really, really important to know whether you can assess a statement's validity by asking the Aether if it's true (by Unveiling it's truth or lack of such).

If it works (and as the practices are written, it should, mechanically) it then utterly breaks most investigative and a lot of murder mysteries in half.

If it DOESN'T then we need a lore explanation as to why it doesn't and how do the adjacent abilities work to make some fucking sense to it — since otherwise most starting Obrimoi would try it some time or another.

>>47821348
Why?

>>47822656
Forces has needless speedbumps that Dave promised to do away with.

Prime is absolute wank and fails to do anything it's supposed to do. And the things it CAN have weird caveats and don't fit all the Practices like they should.

>>47822680
Got any examples?

>>47822750
Dispel Magic and Supernal Dispellation.

>>47822750
Forces - Earthquake being in 5 dots, despite causing bashing damage. People argue that because it affects surrounding buildings it needs to be higher than 3 dots, but that's what the Scale spell factor is for not raising the Practice. Also it's in Unmaking, which is beyond retarded.

Prime - Everything. Phantasms and create Tass are replaced with Platonic Form, which is useless at actually creating Phantasms or Tass. Dispelling is now so underpowered it is useless. TRUTH is added as a purview but it doesn't expand on it beyond the lowest practices. Mana manipulation is pushed back a few dots for no good reason, another speedbump.

Dave hates Obrimos and I have no idea why.

Some new information from DaveB on Deviant from the forums. Not a lot, but could be quite interesting once we see what happens.

>We're looking (and Deviant is still pre-writing, we're talking experiments with dice pools that don't even have names) at Deviant having more than one of some traits that have been singular so far, combining some things that are normally separate, and lacking others entirely.

>>47822771
I see nothing wring with these.

>>47822771
>>47822816
Call me stupid here but I'm really having a hard time seeing how dispelation is underpowered now (honestly, you guys at these threads are way better at seeing these system related things than me). As for the platonic forms, I agree.

>>47822862
Getmians (exalted) already have duplicates of a single trait held by other splats.

Beasts already lack a fuel trait held by others.

Nothing original here

>>47822877
Unless you spend 2 Reach, you have to eat a gigantic dice pool penalty (bigger than you'd think after needing to boost Potency above the enemy Mage's Withstand) to make it last longer than 1 turn.

Either of those options cripples you when you also invariably need to spend Reach on Sensory Range and Instant Casting.

>>47822485
>I have mostly written off Mage 2E as usable at least until they actually make a printed version, but this is a thing that is quite apart from what Time/Fate can or can't do.
That's pretty fucking stupid, desu fampai

You can't ask the Ether because the Ether doesn't know. It just knows the underlying symbols. If YOU don't know what you say is true, the spell can't.

You don't even need a lore explanation: there's a mystery for you.

>>47822816
It should be Making, logically, but I can see why it would be Unmaking. Should really be a bigger version of Shaping, in Matter.

That's far from "unusable". Not even as bad as 1e.

>>47822984
>It should be Making

It should be Fraying. Affecting a wide area is only applicable if you want to spend dice penalties on Area, just adding more dots to the arcarnum needed is exactly the type of speedbump that Dave promised 2e would remove. It's in the wrong practice for no reason other than perceived game balance (which considering that Time 2 can kill you before you were born is retarded).

>>47823014
>*Affecting a wide area is only applicable if you want to spend dice penalties on Scale

>>47822920
Tell me about Getmians.
Mummy also did both energy and morality different.
>>47822862
I was trying a D&D morality hack... Two Werewolf style Alignment tracks. Good/Evil and Law/Chaos, with Neutral in the middle. Some acts would even "break towards Neutral". Doubt that's what Dave means, but two moralities, at odds with one another, would be neat.
>>47823014
Making or Unmaking Matter.
Making Forces. You create a major disturbance.

>>47822680

Matter isn't all fun and roses either.

Alter Integrity is still not fixed, literally years after Bill Bridges promised to look into it.

We still don't know what happens if you turn iron to oxygen and someone breathes it or you burn something with that oxygen and then collapse the spell.

Et fucking cetera.

>>47823102
Matter got fucked over too, but at least Moros have Death still

Obrimos have nothing.

>>47823095
>Tell me about Getmians

They have Yin & Yang essence pools, their Charms (powers) have different effects depending on which pool you use to power them.

>>47823161
>Obrimos have nothing.
and they can't even use Death!

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>>47823292
I WANT TO GET OFF MR BROOKSHAW'S WILD RIDE

>>47823102
>We still don't know what happens if you turn iron to oxygen and someone breathes it or you burn something with that oxygen and then collapse the spell.
Those are dumb questions that should be up to the ST. I'm boring, so for me the answer is "nothing".
What's wrong with alter integrity?
>>47823185
Neat, I guess

>>47823292
Death is best.

>>47822479
>Anyone got suggestions for core Mysteries?
Less mechanics, more questions like this
notice me Anon-sempai

>>47823399

>Those are dumb questions that should be up to the ST. I'm boring, so for me the answer is "nothing".
What do you mean by that? The oxygen doesn't oxygenate, or what? Or it doesn't turn back at the end of the spell, making the effect a Lasting change to the Fallen World, or WHAT? "Nothing" can't happen, something would have to happen one way or another.

>What's wrong with alter integrity?
It has the option to be Lasting and thus can stack with itself an arbitrary number of times, yet no one actually uses it for anything. It should make un-Dissonance-able superbuildings possible at the very least, or unbreakable armor and weapons, at the personal scale.

>>47823511
I mean that after it gets respirated, it went turn into iron and kill someone. It becomes part of their Pattern, just like regular oxygen.

I don't see the problem with alter integrity. I wouldn't let it stack, but also super-amazing mundane material causes Dissonance. At least, that was how it worked in 1e. If its so great, why do you say no one uses it?

>>47822964
>what are Rotes
>what is Advanced Duration
>what are Aimed Spells

>>47823511
>>47825313
>alter integrity
>Withstand: Durability
Every time you make it better, you have to take more penalties to affect it again. It can reduce something to the durability of a sheet of paper, but that's more immediately obvious to sleepers.

In 1e, there used to be a combo where an item could be turned into an improvised weapon that has a damage code equal to its Durability and magic didn't have Withstand. Alter Integrity was Covert and Lasting by default to boot, so stacking it to countable infinity was mechanically trivial. Haven't heard of any ST that ever allowed it though.

>>47825918
>>alter integrity
>>Withstand: Durability

You can Informed-scum around it, since Withstand doesn't work against critsuccesses, but ok, that's a valid argument for it being somewhat fixed.

>I don't see the problem with alter integrity. I wouldn't let it stack, but also super-amazing mundane material causes Dissonance. At least, that was how it worked in 1e.
Except it doesn't produce dissonance the same way holes from consecutive fireballs or healing several distinct wounds with Life wouldn't, since it's Lasting and thus fully a part of the Fallen World, and the item it affected is not an Enhanced Item, but just a better item.

>I mean that after it gets respirated, it went turn into iron and kill someone. It becomes part of their Pattern, just like regular oxygen.
This means you can get Lasting matter transmutations by running a (transmute undesirable thing to desirable thing) — (transform desirable thing chemically, mundanely, into a compound of desirable thing) — (transform it back).

This is a thing that should be clear from the text. It's not a minor thing that can be adjudicated, it's a major fucking thing which has implications for a lot of stuff!

For example, you can't use transmuted gold for producing orichalcum because it's not fully "real" gold, and the spell knows it's partially not-gold, so the sublimation process doesn't work and you need to have 10 kg of mundanely sourced gold per 1 kg of orichalcum. If your rule works like you say, this means you can at Matter 4 turn sand into gold, transform it to auric trichloride, then collapse the spell and heat it to get undispellible, Lasting, fully "real" gold.

And that's only one major thing I can name, there's probably dozens more.

>>47826121
>Informed-scum
Requires ST consent, which fixes the problem for the ones that don't want to deal with that shit. (or they just mandate that you explain what your intent is with every spell in setting terms and they'll decide the conditions you get)

>Enhanced Item
>Additionally, dots can be spent to directly enhance the item.
A dot can provide +1 to the item’s bonus as a tool, a point of
Structure, or a point of Durability.
It's literally an Enhanced Item without the sanctity of merits provided by spending exp for it, just like player made Imbued Items don't give you the merit, but all its benefits.

>transmutation
Chemistry and nuclear physics are part of the Lie.
Symbols react to one another in different ways, which would either be left as a Mystery or explained in the Sings of Sorcery chapter for Alchemy. Likewise, the mechanics for sourcing orichalcum and other perfected metals haven't been introduced in 2e, outside of a nod to the Forge Masters' existence.

There's a bit of a disconnect between Living and Nonliving patterns, despite the main difference from 1e (indefinite durations) being gone in 2e. Their interaction with fallen materials for sustenance and the like doesn't introduce a symbol of "x molecules of H2O" into the pattern, but influences other symbols as the nonliving pattern is subsumed. Drinking water might remove Dehydrated. Drinking alcohol might add Intoxicated. If you need a mechanical way of approaching it, think of programming/metadata tags.

Nonliving patterns under magic reacting with other nonliving patterns and the specific result of the aftermath are a niche case that the writers neither considered, nor gave a shit about. Magic is supposed to be intent driven. What do you want?

>Money? Funky chemistry?
Dots in Resources, there are RAW spells that can do it.

>Meeting a story specific material component?
Work with your ST. If they wanted to make it trivial, you'd be using Down and Dirty spellcasting already.

>>47826121
>You can Informed-scum around it, since Withstand doesn't work against critsuccesses, but ok, that's a valid argument for it being somewhat fixed.

Isn't Informed on information only?

>>47827155
Informed applies to skill rolls.
It's basically saying "you've researched enough to guarantee success, roll to see if you do extremely well instead".

However some people like to think it applies to spellcasting where you're using a Rote.
I do not.

>>47821158
Question for Mage the Ascension: would a character with Life 3, Prime 3, and Spirit 3 be able to "diablerize" people for Quintessence/Tass?

>>47822862
Maybe Deviants will have separate tracks relating to how consuming their power is and how it affects their mental state?

>>47822964
Wait is that all?
so let me think for a bit...

Suppose someone cast a ward on their apartment(room not building; you walk past the door without a glance), lets say, Incognito Presence (Mind ••) pg 160.

Suppose I want to get me and some buddies into said apartment, and better, I'm a Mastigos with a single dot in prime. I don't want my idiot friends provoking clash of wills and letting him know we were at his damn house, so we are dispelling it.

So, for a single scene, I want in. I cast dispel magic. 1 mana for casting a non ruling spell.

I have Gnosis 2 and prime 1(3 dice), so I suck, lets add a point of willpower(6 dice), my mage too(7 dice)l, and concentration as we are just looking around(9 dice).

As for reach, I want advanced duration and instant casting. 2 reach. I get 1 for free and am using my favorite tool so paradox chance die.

Now for dice penalties. I NEED 3 potency for this spell to work. Period. -6 penalty.

So in the end I have 3 dice, costs 1 mana(if I was Ob it would be free and my pool would be bigger), and a paradox chance die, but I get to walk into his house without provoking clash of wills and letting him know me and any number of friends(the spell is off for everyone, not just me) visited. Just enough time to hide some stolen shit under his bed(they are doing it I'm concentrating damn it). This lasts the whole scene.

So, 1 dot seams nice to have to fight other people of the same path as you.

>>47828228
Problem being, in concentrating on the apartment so you could even construct the Imago for the casting of the spell, you'd provoke a Clash of Wills.

>>47828228
>Now for dice penalties. I NEED 3 potency for this spell to work. Period. -6 penalty.
I fucked up. Forgot the 1 free point. -4 penalty. so 5 dice at the end.

>>47828360
shitty spell example yes, but my point is still there. dispel magic isn't total garbage, its a 1 point wonder that without a rote you can use to help fight off other mages of the same path.

>>47828360
Though yes, ignoring that little niggling problem, Dispel Magic is fantastic, and it's a good idea for the Obrimos to try and teach his Cabal the basics of Prime if only so that you can Dispel a wider range of Arcana.

>>47828360
>>47828228
Wait I just thought of something.

Could a Obrimos cast Dispel magic with advanced scale with like a -2 penalty and dispel all the spells owned by anyone with the Obrimos's arcanum who have fewer then potency dots in said arcanum in that whole apartment building?(if they were good)

lets do a new example.

So an Obrimos with prime 2, force 1, fate 1, mind 1, time 1 and Gnosis 1 wants to tell everyone with those above magic hanging around, "go fuck yourself"

He has 3 dice at start, add a rune carved into the dirt outside and a tool and he has 6 dice. No cost just time.(lets be honest here, a mage built like this would have this spell as a 3+ rote and not scratching the ground with a rune, but we are not adding a rote bonus because we are better then that.)

1 reach for advanced duration, 1 reach for advanced scale, 1 reach for instant casting and for fun 1 advanced potency. 4 reach. 2 free. With dedicated tool this is a chance die.

With a -2 penalty he can raise the potency of this spell to 3. 4 dice and a paradox chance die to tell everyone in "A large house or building" who has 2 or less in any of the above arcanum to go fuck themselves as their spells are shut down for the scene. This spell would require a potency 5 dispel magic to suppress(the effective caster level would be prime 4 thanks to advanced potency).

IF the mage is willing to drop a Willpower then they could risk raising this spell to be potency 4, turning off all spells cast by peasants who don't have at least 3 dots in the spell they are casting.(a mage with a good rote might be able to risk going higher, but again we are better then that)

So, is this possible? a part of me thinks it could be broken or I'm wrong. It is very likely I'm wrong. I hope.

>>47829047
Well firstly your Rune takes 3 hours to draw.
Also you're also investing a lot of points in low-rating Arcana.

But kudos, you can blanket dispel an apprentice's hung spells within a building's area, including every spell you decide to cast.

It's hardly broken.

What happens if your Withstand trait rises after you already have a spell cast on you? Does it not affect them? I couldn't find anything concrete in the book. If it does push the potency down further, you could Wards and Signs after the fact to just ignore spells cast on you (especially ones not normally allowing a Withstand because W&S applies to all spells). Even better, but perhaps OP, is if the spell's origin/controller gets to decide whether it actively withstands or not - throw it on an enemy and watch all their spells wink out.

>>47829734
Withstand is only considered when the spell is cast...
Most of the time.

>>47827261
If you're adding your skill, it's a skill roll.

>>47829988
[citation needed]

>>47830067
[counter citation needed]

>>47830137
You're the one asserting a positive. "It doesn't say it's not one" could be used to justify literally anything.

>>47830153
Eh, +2 Reach makes Exceptional Luck blanket affect casting rolls, sooooooo...

>>47829988
From a rules standpoint, I can see how that would be interpreted.
But looking at the fluff of the Informed skill, and Mundras, your personal Skill Mundra is only a key to unlocking Supernal power, and cementing the Imago in your head.

I don't really see research as helping with that.

oWoD question, whats the black spiral?

>>47830709
"The Dancers' totem is Whippoorwill, whose mad call the Dancers emit during their hunts. They name themselves after a mysterious Labyrinth that exists in the realm of the Wyrm; they are said to "dance" this Black Spiral to gain dark powers and wisdom. Indeed, to dance the Black Spiral and survive is considered by the Black Spiral Dancers to be the most sacred of feats.

The practice of "dancing the spiral" to find communion with spirits can be traced back to many ancient shamanistic traditions, including those of the Picts. Led by the guidance of their spirit totems, those who walked the spiral could commune with the elemental forces of the world. As part of this, saner Black Spirals profess that the Wyrm originally represented a force of balance, not only between the Weaver and the Wyld, but between light and shadow. The Wyrm's servitors prevented either force from growing too powerful and upsetting the balance of creation. When the Weaver trapped the Wyrm, this balance was shattered. To being anew, the Pattern Web has to be torn down and the world be reduced into ist basic components."

From the wiki page on Black Spiral Dancers.

>>47830709

gay old werewolf shit

So how bad is Beast. I've heard conflicting reports about how it is. Though they all mostly agree that it's improved from the leak or preview or something.

>>47822862
>Damn I was hoping it was closer to being finished.

>>47831767
It's aimless and a bit of a mish-mash because of them having tore-write the fluff without changing the mechanics after the leak backlash, but personally I like it.

>>47831767
Mostly what >>47831785 said. I had some strange hopes on the build a monster front, as well as the connection to other splats that I'm not sure exactly how they would have manifested if I had gotten them, but I don't get the feeling it was attained. I wouldn't say it's flat out terrible anymore, but it doesn't really scratch any itch I need scratching.

>>47831767
Oh, also, me too on the Deviant front. I'm a big fan of pretty much all of the inspirational material. I've got a crazy idea in my head of a minor Ring working with a Fractal and a Deviant spawned by a GM-controlled Cult-Corporation.

>>47831767
oWoD kind of bad.

>>47832199
Fuck you don't spread lies

>>47832213
You're right, I'm sorry.

It's fucking terrible, not kind of bad.

>>47831767
Original Beast was a cringeworthy bullshit stat about otherkin taking "justified" revenge on the cis white males for being what they are.

New Beast is about being a monster who eats tears and tries to justify their bullshit by "teaching lessons". It's devoid of direction, has mostly justified villains, and tries to remain relevant and excuse this lack of actual cohesion by parasitically feeding off of more popular splats, who are all their "family". A claim to which most other splats should respond to with disgusted retching. Oh, also certain elements are horribly bullshit. Not quite "Fate Arcanum" bullshit, but still ludicrously so.

>>47832264
>and tries to remain relevant and excuse this lack of actual cohesion by parasitically feeding off of more popular splats, who are all their "family".
BROTHEEERRRRR!!!!

>>47832264
>A claim to which most other splats should respond to with disgusted retching.
Or at the very least confusion.
>Vampire is using Obfuscate to stalk someone so they can feed.
>Notices a cardboard box has been following them the whole time.
>"What the hell are you doing here David?"

Does anyone know if the Black Death era in the Dark Eras Companion is still a Promethean/Vampire crossover, or is it just Promethean now?

>>47832264
Why does everyone give Fate such shit?

>>47832492
It makes you omnipotent and Time makes you invulnerable

>>47831767

let me sum it up with a story of my pnp with my friend who i fucking hate
>he was trying to be one of those people that helps homecoming players i think i don't remember

Me: whats happening
Beast: welcome brother to the world of the beast
Me: not that furry shit
Beast: don't worry that only happens in your lair
Me: my what...also do i need to drink blood or something
Beast: nope you only need to scare people cause reasons
Me: so i don't need to hold on to my humanity or try to get my soul back or anything other then scare people....why?
Beast: because we must teach peop-
Me: why if they would must likely relapse back into it or learn it on their own without us.
Beast: because we are beast that must teach humani--
Me:humanity that they could learn this without us
Beast: look.... your a beast that must teach humanity
Me: why can't we fight the beast and make heroes something that hunts us or some shit why do i have to teach a homeless guy not to be homeless
beast er i mean friend: ok lets switch to VTM fuck this
Me: metaplot ahead

Cont next post

>>47832492
Because it's bullshit powerful even at just 2 dots.

>>47832525
How do Fate and Time do that better than other arcana?

>>47832566
Only if your ST is shit with Informed.

>>47832589
Steadfast says hello

>>47832264
Except for a few edge-cases, Beasts are only good at killing and not being killed.

>>47832690
They have excellent mind-control

>>47832555
5 people this time
Me, luis,chris,fuckface,GM

GM: we are playing beast this time guys
Luis,chris,fuckface: wtf is that shit
Me: it's a game where you play a furry hipstershit that has no reason to exist other then teach people how not to fuck up.
GM: no you play a beast who must teach humanit---
Luis: can i teach a bitch to swallow
Chis: i think i want to teach someone the meaning of not living with blood
Fuckface: guys lets just play plz i never played this with anybody cause they don't know how to play it but i want to try.
Me:why would you want to play a game that allows you to become a monster that is the opposite of being a monster.
Luis: vampires are all about trying to keep there humanity, were wolf is about sniffing ass and trying to blame humans for stuff,mage isabout not fucking up badly or getting a paradox up the ass, Frankenstein is about trying to be human, hunters is about hunting monsters and not becoming them,giest is about busting ghost and not being afraid of no ghost, demon is about super spy shit, mummy is about return the slab or suffer my curse,Changeling is about finding inner peace with what you and living with it and also not being taken back to that hell you where in and finally the last being beast the game tat has you playing a hipster that got nothing better to do but eat fear and teach humans that something something i don't no
Me: fuck this i'm going home


end
Fuck beast whoever made it is a prick that didn't understand what white wolf was and played to much DnD and wanted more furry shit with no horror

>>47832698
While the penalties are steep for doing so, you can always decide to risk losing Integrity rather than follow through with the orders, unlike with Vampires and Mages. This level of awareness and free will sucks for the Beast because unlike Dominate, the victim can try to find ways to resist, like by interpreting orders or trying to get into a situation where you can't hear the Beast. While this isn't usually a big deal, it isn't going to do you any good against something that lacks an Integrity track.

You Must Obey is a good Nightmare, but it isn't the be all end all of the mind control powers. Also it was one of the exceptions I was thinking of. Beasts can also be pretty stealthy and with the right build extremely persuasive, but Vampires are better at it.

>>47832839
>and with the right build extremely persuasive
Though mostly just for things that others can do mundanely. Most of their tricks just make social maneuvering easier, they generally don't allow bypassing it or using it to make people do stuff a mundane mortal couldn't make them do.
Most people just misunderstand what impression levels in Social Maneuvering do and what Social Maneuvering is used for, so they think Beasts' social powers are better than they actually are.

>>47832873
Or you could be a mage with Time 4 and instantly open up all Doors in Social Maneuvering with no Withstand.

Beast: The Primordial summed up in a single short video: https://youtu.be/pWdpB-OYtO4

>>47832264
Did they remove You Are Meat?

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>>47826735
>A dot can provide +1 to the item’s bonus as a tool, a point of Structure, or a point of Durability.
>It's literally an Enhanced Item without the sanctity of merits provided by spending exp for it, just like player made Imbued Items don't give you the merit, but all its benefits.

Except it's not. It is an item enhanced by magic, sure, but not an Enhanced Item (as seen in the Enhanced Item definitions, that requires the item to be enhanced with a persistent/long Duration spell, not a Lasting spell, and therefore be subject to Dissonance.)

Yes, this is really confusing.

>>47833073
It funny to me how wrong you are.
I've already disproved this, weeks ago find something new to bitch about.

>>47833925
Bitch please, DaveB already said that was working as intended.

Thinking of rolling a brujah. Are melee weapons just objectively better than unarmed?

>>47833968
I still don't get the flavour behind that effect. Adding Doors because you know the immediate future kind of makes sense. But how does it make it so much easier for you to just blast through most people's social defenses? At the low end you just go straight through 4 Doors.

>>47833968
Dumb ass fucking read the spell. It lowers it by 1 door per potency not all. >>47833997
It lowers the doors because you see what is needed to be done too open them before hand, and you simply go through those motions.

>>47833997
You formulate the _perfect_ thing to say over a cycle of retries, with a perfectly crafted demeanor, perfect posture, cadence of voice, word choice, accent choice, semantic structuring.

Basically you come up with a semantic attack on their brain, in an effective instant. I would have pegged it at Mind 3 Time 3 or maybe Time 3 Mind 2, but whatevs

>>47834017
>It lowers it by 1 door per potency

>minimum Potency 4

>-2 penalty for Potency 5

>-4 penalty for Potency 6

?????

>>47834035
Two things you claimed it got past all doors which is wrong.

And secondly doors can be higher then the characters resolve or compose. By having things like Closed Book &/or having the first dot in Etiquette. Let alone if the task is a breaking point, is against their virtue.
I'm not saying that every person will have any or all of these but you will eventually run across them.

>>47834068
>Two things you claimed it got past all doors which is wrong.
It's fucking right in practice.

>And secondly doors can be higher then the characters resolve or compose.
Acanthus with Fate 2 and Time 4 = Steadfast on Prophecy, jacked up to Potency 10+ with an autosuccess.

>>47834085
Congrats you worked for it.

>>47833641
Yes

>>47834017
What if what needs to be done is to badger them for like a week until they finally get frustrated enough to do it because they are a stubborn jerk?

>>47832574
Fate can do everything. I'm not even kidding. It has THE best buffs (and debuffs, it's the same spell), and it has another spell that's literally "do anything that is even remotely possible".
Time, on the other hand can do stuff like re-write the past utterly, to transform humans into supernaturals (only lesser templates, though), and retroactively kill people.

>>47834068
>Two things you claimed it got past all doors which is wrong.

Yeah yeah, the maximum possible for a normal human is five doors, and the default value for the spell is four doors. For all intents and purposes, it's all doors.

>>47834369
>transform humans into supernaturals (only lesser templates, though)

That's only at Fate 5. Nothing to do with Time.

>>47834400
Wasn't that a Time Spell? Ah well. Misremembering. Acanthus broken as fuck anyhow.

Is it just me or is Withstand a complete joke?
The automatic Potency from just managing the spell, as long as it has it as a primary factor is practically always going to exceed Withstand.

>>47832786
>Fuck beast whoever made it is a prick that didn't understand what white wolf was and played to much DnD and wanted more furry shit with no horror

Ehhh, I am of two minds about Beast, on the one hand, it's a formal request for That Guy to play a character who is That Guy.

But on the other hand I can kind of see what they were trying to do.

Now because of what CofD is, I think that the right way to let Onyx path "get" what the problem of a particular line is, involves not only mercilessly mocking its flaws, but also trying to use the tools that they gave you to make something better.

This applies DOUBLE to all of this bitching about Mage 2e. If DaveB just gets discouraged because we sound like an unpleasable fanbase, the problems won't get fixed by the time the print version comes out. But if we show him how to Hack and Patch the game so players here and on the forums like it, we might get a play-tester credit for our trouble.

I honestly don't know if this general is the right place for this, since I just got back into Mage after reading Dave's Broken Diamond campaign, and the previews, and being inspired enough to buy the PDF.

TL;DR I am new here.

>>47834450
Not if the target uses Willpower to increase their resistance attribute.
Or the subject is Warded.
And even if you succeed, it still reduces your potency, so in many cases the spell will be quite weak.

>>47834458
>if we show him how to Hack and Patch the game so players here and on the forums like it

Oh the naivety on this guy.
You might have been confused by the "/tg/ gets shit done" meme, but nowadays its mostly bitching and moaning.

But if you take up this Sisyphean task, I honestly will try to help you, out of nostalgia for the /tg/ of yore, if nothing else.

>>47834458

I like Beast, but only as an indicator of who not to play with. If you're the type of person that enjoys Beast you don't have a place in my game.

>>47834436

What minor template would a Mage want for his band of cronies?

Also, doesn't this pretty much solve the dillema that a lot of Mages are struggling to overcome - how to make Sleepers who are judged worthy into Sleepwalkers. There are a lot of Legacies that would give an arm and a leg to have a reliable way to do it.

>>47834458

The Hack and Patch thing is my intent for Mummy, once I get through my exams and over this depression.

>>47834530
Prime can also make Sleepwalkers.

>>47834470
>Not if the target uses Willpower to increase their resistance attribute.
I thought that only was on active rolls?
>Or the subject is Warded.
Yeah, but this requires the subject to have Prime 2 (which he should. Prime is awesome.)
>And even if you succeed, it still reduces your potency, so in many cases the spell will be quite weak.
Yeah, but some of the worst save-or-suck spells just require one success. Like Suppress Life, or Shapechanging. Or any of the spells that move the victim somewhere, like Teleport or Worldwalker.

>>47834538
Only for as long as the spell is up, after that they become mind-broken wrecks. (or superhuman, depending on how they roll on those Integrity checks.)

>>47834552
Prime is shit now.

And the BEST spells to use against enemies are the ones that have no Withstand or trivial Withstand, like Temporal Summoning.

>>47834557
But isn't Fate 5 also limited by duration?

>>47834450
That's why I'm creating a custom style that makes Withstand better for other major templates. I don't know how well balanced it will be, but I honestly don't think that matters. It would only be used in crossover games, games that feature a lot of Mage antagonists, or given to major non-Mage antagonists in a Mage game. Besides, it isn't like this would stop a Mage from ruining someone's day by mixing it up a little. All the Withstand in the world won't protect you from Ban.

>>47834535
>over this depression

Doing something productive, and having others praise you for it helps with my depression.
Granted it's Atypical Depression.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atypical_depression

Also exercise helps a lot to get me out of a funk. Go have /fit/ yell at you to get off your ass and move.

>>47834458
I still believe that a strong Players Guide can save Beast from the pits of mediocrity.

I am however, prepared for disappointment.

>>47834520
I like my Beast game. We're caught in between Mages and Vampires and have no idea what is going on because we aren't Vampires or Mages. Being an outsider who's been thrown in the deep end to all these powerful groups and trying to not just survive, but thrive is really fun.

>>47834567
>Prime is shit now.
It also has the "My Withstand is whatever I like it" spell. Which is strong as fuck. A Prime 3/Gnosis 2 Mage managed to push it up to 13 last time we played.
That spell alone makes Prime worth it.

>>47834614

A lot of people who are turned off by Beast see it as self contradictory.
The kind of people who would benefit the most from the kind of lessons that a Beast is who isn't an asshole is capable of teaching, are the kind of people that would want to play Beast...

>>47834673
What bothered me was the lack of diversity in character possibilities. There was just a small set of powers worth taking.

Thinking about running a vampire game. Been out of the scene for awhile, in what situation do I play VtR or VtM? Which roles do they each fill? I'd ask what is better but that would probably start a shit storm.

>>47834673

Furthermore, its nature as a puerile wish fulfillment game seems a bit out of place in the setting of CofD.
By becoming a Beast you are handed a blank check by the universe.
"Might makes Right", and you are quite mighty, compared to what you were as a mortal.
I do think that Beast asks some interesting questions.
Are people right when they claim that power corrupts? What are you going to do with your newfound Power to impose your will on others?

>>47834719
>in what situation do I play VtR or VtM?

You play VtM when you are suffering from nostalgia for the WoD of the 1990's.

>>47834719
>VtM
goofy 90s shit with outdated rules

>VtR
edgy modern shit with polished rules

Pick your poison.

>>47834636
Which also gets shot straight past by 3 successes on a Praxis.

Or by spells that go through the target's Withstand.

>>47834719
Requiem is looser, and has a smaller scale. None of that global conspiracy stuff. It is also a LOT more modular.
But if you want a pre-existing rigid setting to work in, where you know where everything that matters is, play Masquerade.

>>47834725

Don't forget that Beast is allergic to the Idea that Heroes are the good guys.
They love to use Gaston from Disney's "The Beauty and the Beast" as the archetype for the arrogant and unreasonable Hero.
But how true can that be, when the Beast he fights is basically Jigsaw?

>>47834753
>Or by spells that go through the target's Withstand.

I thought those were a mistake that'll get fixed by release?

>>47834767
>a mistake that'll get fixed by release

Only if we work hard to draw attention to the issue.

I've been thinking... Isn't Hannibal Lecter a great example of a Beast?

>>47834719

You play VtM with edgy obnoxious teenagers, you play VtR with mature adults

>>47834775
Or you know, just a cannibal.

>>47834775

No, because he actually has class.

>>47834774
Well... Aren't we?

>>47834785
With supernatural mind-control powers.

>>47834775
>Hannibal Lecter

See, this is why Beast needs a morality stat badly.
Highly moral Beasts are like Wolverine in that scene where he fights the drunks assholes at a bar vs Hannibal Lecter vs Jigsaw, vs that lady apprentise from Jigsaw that missed the point of torturing people, and changed the setup from near-inescapable dillemas, to downright impossible ones, vs a tyrant that is almost as bad as Abyssal entities.

>>47834791
>Well... Aren't we?

Only if DaveB still reads these threads. Are there well thought out fixes that are being proposed in the threads on the forums?
I honestly don't know.

>>47834775
>>47834785
You could make a terrible parody of him whose a Daugr with one of the flesh eating disciplines.

>"And when the delivery guy came, I said 'I ordered Thai food, but I guess I'll settle for Mexican.'...get it? The delivery guy was Mexican and I'm a cannibal."
>"Please shut up."
>"I already tried the Atkins diet, but there aren't that many people called Atkins."
>"Why couldn't you be a normal nutso vampire eh, you know like Ugly Face, Strangler, Poison, or even Rapenkill Ronnie."
>"Well it's rare that I'm like others...wait, what I meant to say is that I like others RARE!"
>Breaks out of his cuffs and Diablerizes Rapenkill Ronnie.

>>47834815
>Are there well thought out fixes that are being proposed in the threads on the forums?

DaveB closed both the errata and FAQ threads on the forum and isn't taking new ones, because... I dunno, fuck everyone who wasn't here for Mage 2e's first month, I guess?

So, speaking of "hacking and patching", I'd like to put forward a 'fix' that my group recently came to agreement on for the use of Matter to create city shattering explosions as an instant action.

Now before I get anyone up in arms that I would suggest a nerf to Matter, I think Matter has actually been put where it should be as of 2e, much like Mind. Obviously Time and Fate are still problem children (To the extent that they'll be receiving attention from devs) and Space is a little worrying in places. Matter has some unsettling vagueness as per >>47823102. This is the foundation of a serious issue, namely that you can transmute a huge amount of substance into something LUDICROUSLY dangerous and unstable (Such as U-235, or TNT) and then wreak devastation well beyond the maximum scale factors.

When creating a substance, such as a strong acid, that would logically inflict aggravated damage due to its chemical properties, it is 1 reach and 1 mana as per an equivalent attack spell. This seems fair since you can keep on dealing agg damage from your initial stock of the compound, encouraging preparedness. We weren't greatly concerned with toxicity since poison doesn't occur on instant action scales.

If you are creating an explosive compound, or actuating it into a state from which it will explode (For instance, transmuting the interior of an object into high pressure gas so it explodes), you require both conjunctional Forces 2 - 4 (ST's prerogative aka the 5 of us literally could not agree) and the scale factor and potency of the spell are now used to reflect the damage and blast zone of the explosive, not the base quantity of explosive you create. The quantity of explosive material you actually produce is then proportional to the former.

As the explosive radius and damage of even the smallest efficiently detonated nuclear weapon exceeds the maximum scale radius of the spell, you cannot produce enough fissile material with a single cast to reach critical mass.

>>47834729
Non-Issue
>>47834739
What if I want to play an edgy 90's game with VtR? I wouldn't mind modern, but with new players I am sure they going to fuck up using powers with cameras around in everyones pockets.
>>47834754
Non-issue, I'm divided between setting up an imaginary city so nobody can call me out on not knowing my major landmarks/shops/whathaveyou of the big cities, or run them regardless. But the plot would be well contained within the walls, I never cared for the huge meta plot of VtM, but have never seen a ST use it so I've only read about it.
>>47834780
Well that made the choice obvious.

>>47834830

Maybe we can spin it as, 'house rules that make all the Arcana equally desirable'? They won't ban house-rules threads from their forums, right?

>>47834895
>with cameras around in everyone's pockets

The Mind's Eye Theatre game I was in for a bit was set 30 years ago, exactly for this reason. It was a bit of culture shock, as most other players were too young to recall what living in a pre-internet, pre-cellphone world was like.

>not knowing my major landmarks/shops/whathaveyou of the big cities
You could run the game in Your Town. Some plot event might draw a lot of Vampires to the town to deal with the problem, and the inherent chaos of such influx of new blood would make sure that you are set as far as intrigue is concerned for quite a long while.

>>47834877
Oh, and to be clear, if you use matter to create a precursor to an explosive, then use mundane chemistry to complete the weapon, this doesn't trigger the restrictions in question except insofar as explosives precursors are often weaker explosives in and of themselves.

This is all only in play for effects based purposes, namely to prevent Matter from allowing you to cast ludicrously powerful bombs into existence as an instant action. Stuff that requires actual prep-time was deemed an acceptable use of the matter arcanum.

So for instance, transmuting iron oxide into an inert gas, and aluminium into an inert gas, and then mixing them inside a container before cancelling the spells to create the most efficient thermite charge ever built would be deemed acceptable, since even if it was (probably thrown as an instant and then) detonated as a reflexive action, it provided time for another magical party to reasonably respond.

As opposed to being able to, with the ashes of your last cigarette fluttering away from you as you bleed out, transmute several cubic metres of rock underneath you into Uranium-235.

>>47834942
>transmute several cubic metres of rock underneath you into Uranium-235

Wouldn't do shit. Even radiation poisoning requires that you stay there for an extended period of time, or breathe in some fine airborne dust.

>>47834895
Go away, Aspel.

>>47834895
>Non-issue, I'm divided between setting up an imaginary city so nobody can call me out on not knowing my major landmarks/shops/whathaveyou of the big cities, or run them regardless. But the plot would be well contained within the walls, I never cared for the huge meta plot of VtM, but have never seen a ST use it so I've only read about it.

Then I'd argue for Requiem. My reasons are as follows:
>The Mechanics
Requiem is a smaller mess than Masquerade. Especially if you use 2e.
>The Clans
The archetype approach they took in Requiem allows for broader character concepts. The addition of the Covenants also mean that Clan isn't the main social axis.
>Trap options
Masquerade has a huge one: Max out the Generation Background at start or suck for the rest of the game (unless you are a diablerist).
>Neonate power
In Requiem you get the feeling that even neonates are unholy monsters of the night, rather than just bulletproof humans. (In Requiem 1e, this goes the other way though).
>Malkavians
The fact that they are a feared plague in Requiem means that you'll have a much smaller risk of Fishmalk
>Stereotypes
No Gypsy thief clans, no Italian mafioso clans, and no middle-eastern Assassin clans in Requiem. The stereotypes are still there, but they are on a smaller scale. No clan-wide super-stereotypes.

>>47834968
Or get it in extreme enough doses in a short timespan. Or ingest it.

>>47834996
>Or get it in extreme enough doses in a short timespan
Regardless, a moderately proficient Thyrsus should clean that out of your system in no time flat.

>>47834895
>What if I want to play an edgy 90's game with VtR?

There is a Vampire Translation Guide, for exactly such a purpose.
I recommend you read it anyway, since it is one of the best condensed presentations of what both game lines are about.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2awjagvtr1gtd9f/Vampire%20the%20Requiem%20-%20Vampire%20Translation%20Guide.pdf?dl=0
Please don't be an asshole and pirate all the books. If you play the game, support the Developer.

>>47834968
>>47834996
I cannot understand why you don't immediately realise that this is over 20,000 times the critical mass of pure U-235 required to trigger a chain fission event.

It is twice the raw weight of the Tsar Bomba including its case.

What do we know about Deviant so far?

>>47834939
I'm not even from that time, though close and I'd rather play like that. I played a very short lived chronicle once where we essentially got in a gang fight with humans, ripped them to shreds, drove off then was jumped in a moving van by their vampire master who ripped the back doors open *he could fly for some reason, custom clan I think* we ripped him up with some vamp powers in time for us to remember that we were in the middle of the street, with a car behind us and some punk taking pictures then driving away *thankfully I remembered the license plate number real fast but that could of been a shitfest if we didn't notice*

The thing with "my town" is I'm naturally shitty with navigating towns in real life and don't pay to much attention to what I pass on the daily unless I visit it so I know 5% of it (huge population city).

>>47834987
Not Aspel, knew an Aspel once. He was an ass.

>>47834993
I definately like the sound of Covenants but they seem intimidating to the uninitiated, politics WITHIN politics!

>>47835013
Thanks

>>47834573

My depression is unfortunately related to my physical deterioration. I'm currently losing all feelings below the ribs, which leads to some problems in regards to walking and sex/masturbation.

But I'll keep it in mind.

>>47835255
>I definately like the sound of Covenants but they seem intimidating to the uninitiated, politics WITHIN politics!

What's the intimidating stuff? Perhaps I can help.
I'll also point out that joining a Covenant is a fairly big step for a vampire. The first few years almost everyone is unaligned. (Provided they weren't initiated into the ideas as ghouls, which isn't that uncommon.)

Oh, also, it isn't so much politics within politics. The clans aren't really a political entity. Sure, there are specific 'families' with extra pull, but that's because they are that family, not because they are a special clan.
In Requiem, you aren't obliged to be on the same side as that asshole Daeva who keeps raping chicks to death, just because you also happens to be a Daeva.

>>47835028
>why you don't immediately realise that this is over 20,000 times the critical mass of pure U-235 required to trigger a chain fission event

Nope. The hard part about Nuclear bombs isn't getting a bunch of U-235 in one place, it's using explosive 'lenses' which have to be exactly focused, to sub millimeter precision to create the compressed U-235 plasma at a high enough temperature and pressure without letting it escape through heat and pressure venting gaps.

If you do it 'nearly right' you just get a dirty bomb that scatters some radioactive dust around, without triggering a chain reaction.

Case in point - North Korea. They have had centrifuges that can produce Uranium for a while, but doing the complicated calculations, and very precise machining of the explosives is still beyond them, and their nukes fizzle out half way through.

The Tsar Bomb was a three stage Teller–Ulam thermonuclear weapon, with 97% of the energy coming from lithium deuteride and lithium-7.

Even with perfect explosive compression, there is a practical limit to how large a Fission Nuke can be.

Source: Studied Physics in college, did extensive research on the role of X-Ray compression focusing in triggering second stage fusion in a multi stage thermonuclear weapons. Also my father, mother, sister, brother, two uncles, and three cousins are all Physicists.
My Uncle was a Nuclear physicist in the Soviet Union, my Brother was trained as an ICBM launch officer, and my Cousin currently works at the Large Hadron Collider. I know I am bragging like an asshole, but if you need further sources, I can provide them.

>>47835295
The politics within politics isn't so much Clan vs Clan and Covenant vs Covenant, it's more inner covenant struggles ie moving up, and city politics *covenant vs covenant then?*

I just worry about how the covenants interact with each other in the city.

>>47835449
>>47835363

Its both at the same time.

Clan vs Covenant vs Clan vs Covenant.

In general, yes covenants seem more important but bloodlines and clan relations still pull people up to do stuff.

If there was a larger interclan spat, people would quickly choose sides.

Just look at ethnic conflicts in africa over the border of several nations.

Just what were they thinking when they were designing VtM?

>>47835449
>>47835681
Covenant is your ideology, philosophy or religion. Your motivation.

Clan is your family.

Usually, the former is more important, but the latter cannot be discounted.

In the end, if you are a Carthian Mekhet, an Invictus Mekhet will still "get" you better than your Daeva covenantmates.

Would Frank N Furter be a Daeva with Protean in the Ordo Dracul?

>>47835808
To a certain degree, but thats like saying Obama understand how some other afro american grew up in the ghetto.

He surely doesn't, even though he probably knows more about it than George Bush.

Replace black people with Nossies and Bush with Ventrue :^)

>>47835820
Nah, he is totally a flamboyant Strix.

>>47835835
Fair enough.

>>47835831
Except that, compared to human ethnicities, the differences between the Clans are more evident. Clan Disciplines, Banes and even Favoured Attributes cause real changes in a new member of a Clan. A person who became Mekhet, and received Auspex 2 and +Intelligence from it, is a different person than if he had been turned into a Daeva with Vigor 2 and +Dexterity. Especially once his Clan Banes trigger.

There are just very real metaphysical differences between the Clans that you cannot easily bridge with intuition and empathy.

>>47835872
Totally agree.

But division by socialisation and hierarchy are still very important.

>>47835872
You can be a Mekhet and never touch Auspex. You can be Daeva and master it.

I need suggestions for setting up a Madge 2e city. Can I get Dave's advice image? And Mystery suggestions?

>>47835909
I do not deny that at all.

>>47835932
And then you will still use it differently than the average Mekhet as you are lacking a dot of Intelligence/Wits and the same Bane, just on the mechanical side. This becomes even more noteworthy if you play up the mental differences that are not represented in game traits. For instance the omen obsession that many Mekhet suffer from (unless you play up the idea that those "side effects" are in the Disciplines and not the Clan heritage, which is an interesting idea, it's true).

>>47835989
Personally, thats why I love the daeva so much.

Their nWoD weakness is a roleplaying gold generator while still being mechanically well made and integrated.

>>47835976
When setting up my game I gave my players a selection of five, including prime Mysteries. They were:

1) Ghosts from across the country specifically travel to this city to enter the Underworld through Avernian Gates here. This is accompanied by a singular concourse of leylines.

2) People's life being changed from one moment to the next, a bit Dark City style. The lonely nerd of one moment now has a loving family and is happily married for 7 years and a job as catering organiser.

3) Many Supernal Verges that appear spontaneously and travel in noticeably high numbers.

4) (Hong Kong) A Spirit war between the Spirit of China and the Spirit of Hong Kong. Also, a major nexus for the movement of supernatural artifacts (not just supernal).

5) An extra hour between 24:00 and 00:01 that turns the city into an atypical Abyssal Verge while Sleepers seem frozen in time. Yes, this is totally grimdark Persona 3. I am not apologising.

>>47835989
I see them as being different, but no more different than human demographics. A straight guy and a transwoman or a white guy and a Korean-American are going to have different histories and lives and outlooks. But even there, Vamps can be mistaken for a different clan, and they may play it up or get passed at the accusation.
>>47836027
They do have a good one. Wish Venture and Gangrel had Banes that good.
>>47836075
>When setting up my game I gave my players a selection of five
I was looking for something to entice my friends to join :V

I was thinking Irises and Realm hopping, but that may be boring. Maybe some Atlantean Ruins and stuff.

>>47836142
Well, you know your friends the best. What are they interested in in general and how can you give that a CofD/MtAw spin?

>>47834830
So he has time to post here off his phone but not time to actually make his PoS game worth buying?

To think that I've admired the man for these two-something years.

>>47836168
Anon, I don't know how to make lesbian-straight girl orientation discovery drama into a core mystery...

>>47836235
Might have to do with the fact that they need to, you know, make all the changes people are demanding.

>>47836251
I mean... what about some Life/Mind Mystery (perhaps the Temenos bleeding through like in LA?) that fucks (ha!) with peoples sexuality?

>>47836285
I've always found Demon contracts are fun.
What happens when some woman buys a guy's sexual relationship with his girlfriend?

>>47836328
His girlfriend is and always was bisexual

So what's the main point of Beast then? Like what do you do? All of you mentioned teaching so what do you mean by that?

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Which is the sexiest CofD splat?

>>47837000
Promethean has an "unearthly beauty" class

>>47836763
Well, an example character is a woman who gets into relationships with men and abuses them until they leave. Teaching them that some relationships are shit.

But other than that and "get stronger" there is no real aspiration written in.
No real unbeatable villain to hide form.
No heaven to reach for.

>>47837079
So does Changeling
And they can fulfill your /d/reams

There's a pun like that to be made for every splat, I'm sure, but I'm too lazy to write them all

>>47836763
And that, my friend, is the main issue with Beast as a whole. It has no direction or main goal to strive for, so you need to piggyback it off of other, better games that it will either fit horribly (Mage) or make everyone else feel useless (Vampire, Werewolf).

>>47837213
>But other than that and "get stronger" there is no real aspiration written in.
>No real unbeatable villain to hide form.
>No heaven to reach for.
Well that's okay I guess.

So can I just spend my time fucking around while watching out for hunters? Or do I have to teach some sort of lesson?

>>47837805
You can, but you're gonna get low on Satiety and have to go be a dick sooner or later, and there's no actual need for you to teach a lesson in the process.
Beasts are objectively aimless douchebags who harm other people to make themselves happy.

>>47837895
Actually that sounds okay. I mean it's different but it's not bad.

What about the mechanics and character options?

>>47833882
Immediately under the part you clipped is this:
>A dot can provide +1 to the item’s bonus as a tool, a point of Structure, or a point of Durability.
Which is literally the effect of Alter Integrity. Doesn't even specify if item stats need to be persistent or lasting. Given that Persistent is a Condition tag, they should have clarified if they meant Indefinite or Lasting.

If a Vampire's prelude is "becoming," what would be an appropriate name for the Mage and Werewolf's prelude?

>>47838758

"awakening" (duh) and "first blood," probably.

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>Tfw you're a slasher and you go to murder some helpless teenagers, only to find out one of them is a demon.

serial killers have it rough these days...

>>47837000
Vampires are hot despite everything.

There's a reason for the rabid girl fandom that comes with it.

I mean unless you're gay or have severe daddy issues, then it's werewolves.

>>47838228

There are 5 types of stylized monster types called families.
Anakim - Giants, Ogres, etc. Cause fear of Powerlessness, and dominate their opponents.
Eshmaki: Monsters lurking in the dark. Cause fear of Loneliness and Destruction.
Makara: Kraken & other sea monsters. Cause fear of Drowning and being overwhelmed by your circumstances.
Namtaru: Medusa types, or horrors that are so ugly they petrify you (figuratively, or literally) Cause fear of Revulsion and shocking revelations.
Ugallu: Various flying beasts (Harpies, Phoenix, etc.) Cause fear of Exposure, and heights. Can see past illusions, and undress you with their eyes.

Then each beast can choose what to feed on.
Hunger for Power (Tyrants): You are pathetic, see how much better than you I am? "They bask in the fear, respect, and trembling worship of those beneath them."
Hunger for the Hoard (Collectors): Greedy assholes that always want more. "Nothing is ever enough, and every Hero fallen to her claws only adds to her collection."
Hunger for Prey (Predators): Hunt 'the most dangerous game - man', killing optional, sometimes just making them bleed is enough. Reminding humans that there are more fearsome creatures out there that see them as nothing more than their next meal.
Hunger for Punishment (Nemeses): "Nemeses feed by punishing the guilty, or those they perceive to be guilty. They keep the guilty on edge, and keep the transgressors looking over their shoulders even when they should know, rationally, that they’ll never get caught.
Hunger for Ruin (Ravagers): Destroy all of the things you love, just to see you suffer. "They get you to think about how fragile you are and wonder what will be destroyed next. That state of uncertainty and fear is what satiates a Ravager."

Example character concept: A men's rights neckbeard becomes a giant Ogre with a big dong. He hunts down feminazis and whips their asses bloody, until they can explain the flaws and fallacies inherent in their arguments.

How exactly do you close a wound? Is it possible?

>>47840028
Magic. Or a successful medicine roll and 2 days rest

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>>47839720
>Example character concept: A men's rights neckbeard becomes a giant Ogre with a big dong. He hunts down feminazis and whips their asses bloody, until they can explain the flaws and fallacies inherent in their arguments.

>>47840042
No I mean like...a shadow wound. A wound in the shadow. Maeljin infested wound.

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>>47839720

The Heroes you spawn are thematically your opposite. So our Anakim Tyrant Beast would spawn #killallmen 4th wave college femenist celebrity with a mob of yes womyn followers. The game makes it clear that the Hero is ALWAYS wrong, stupid, and doesn't get it that you are the designated "good guy".

Meanwhile our Beast "The Patriarch" might be searching for ladies who falsely accused their boyfriends of being rapists, and cause them to confess it in a suicide note before forcing them to torture themselves to death.

Also you get to be best friends with most supernatural creatures in town, because
>I am totally one of you guys. I can give you cool buffs!

This wish fulfillment concept meshes well with the Theme of the Game.
This is why /tg/ hates Beast.

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>>47836763
>All of you mentioned teaching so what do you mean by that?

>>47836763
Be an asshole, get called out on it, and then go into a defensive self righteous rant about how the world is in the wrong and it's not you.

>>47840191
>Nightmare: Words Speak Louder Than Actions

>>47837805
>do I have to teach some sort of lesson?

There are no mechanics in the game that tie in with "lesson teaching" and nobody is making you do it. It is there only as a fluffy excuse why what you are doing is right.
No matter what you do, it turns out that it was exactly what the doctor ordered for humanity to learn its lesson damn it!
Even if you kill your prey before he realizes you are there, and nobody else finds any evidence that something happened, the fact that the world feels a little bit more empty because the guy you killed isn't there SUPPOSEDLY "magically" leads to someone having the necessary revelation to become a better person.
>This is an idea that the book mentions, but then goes back to treating it as the Meaningless Bullshit Excuse that it is

>>47840378
Also anyone who tries to stop you is just looking for glory and is a very bad person

>>47836763

See normally nWoD/CofD have some Integrity or Morality meter.

For example vampires have Humanity, if it drops to 0, they lost the grip on rationality, and gave in to the ravening Beast that is their hunger for blood.
>Hand the character in to the Storyteller because you can't play such a monster any more.
When VtR first came out some people were salty because of how little it might take to drive you to that stage.
Kill half a dozen people in self defense, then murder the leaders that were sending them after you, and finally brutally slay the main antagonist, and with some bad rolls, you might already lose your character.
Vampire character's tend to naturally drift down to 2-4 as they continue adventuring, as long as they don't spend Experience to keep it up.

Now beasts have a replacement meter instead of Morality, called Satiety. It measures how hungry you are, and when your inner self feels that it is time to go make somebody's life miserable again.
>Wut?
Also there is a weird effect that if you always diligently dick people over, right on schedule, it makes it LESS likely that Heroes come after you. Whereas being nice and not making people miserable for too long, creates Killers who are coming for your blood.
Since your Conscience stat was replaced by Satiety, you can be as horrible of a monster as you are capable of imagining, say start your morning with a glass of freshly squeezed infant blood, and the worst that might happen, is that your Beast falls into a food coma, and you lose your cool superpowers that gives you for a while. To prevent this, you just need to space out your hunts a bit more, to give you time to digest all of the sweet tears you are licking up.

>>47840129
>The Heroes you spawn are thematically your opposite.
You do not spawn Heroes. That is not how it works. Read the book, this is 4chan, so it's free. Read the ducking book instead of saying this stupid shot. Did you even read the leak? Even then it was damned impossible to make a Hero, and they were not your opposite. I get that your /r9k/ Beast makes you fuzzy inside as if it wasn't equally viable in Changeling or Vampire, but Heroes don't work that way. They BARELY worked that way originally.

That isn't even how Family Ties work. Although buffs ARE a good way to make friends.

>>47840750

I was so turned off by the first version, that I just skimmed the update.

If they got rid of
>"if you Critical Fail on your Rampage check, you spawn a Hero" BS
good for them.

So would this count as teaching a lesson? A beast acting like a serial killer killing people in horrific ways. Then when at his job as a reporter publish a bunch of articles showcasing the murders. The end result being people learn that they should be afraid of waling alone at night and the "monsters in human skin"?

>>47840378
>There are no mechanics in the game that tie in with "lesson teaching" and nobody is making you do it. It is there only as a fluffy excuse why what you are doing is right.

So would going to bars and picking up women and abusing them in order to teach them not to sleep around. Though really just using that "lesson" as an excuse to justify his actions work better?


So basically Beast is a mix mash of different ideas whose final product doesn't work?

>>47840378
That's not how the lesson thing works... No one magically learns something. Even a Beast who wants to teach can still suck at it.

It's just justification. I hope in a players guide or STG they offer other ways to strengthen the Horror.

>>47840636
No. Stop. When will people stop being dumb about Beast?

>>47840741
>Also there is a weird effect that if you always diligently dick people over, right on schedule, it makes it LESS likely that Heroes come after you. Whereas being nice and not making people miserable for too long, creates Killers who are coming for your blood.
Not how it works now, but if did. There were only two ways to make a Hero. Both were statistically unlikely. But treated as if they were inevitable.

Beast has so many good ideas handled badly. Energy as Morality would be great. High Satiety Beasts as sainted monsters. The more fed you are, the nicer you are. Have bonuses for interacting, like high Humanity Vamps. But nope.

>>47840849
>Beast is a mix mash of different ideas whose final product doesn't work?

You can make it work. A Good Storyteller and Good Players can turn this into an interesting game. But the way the game is set up, there is too little motivation to not make terrible characters, besides the inherent desire of some players to make this Idea work.


>>47840900
>Beast has so many good ideas handled badly.
This ^

>>47840800
Heroes are basically not horrible now. The ones that fight Beasts are still broken, but by the Primordial Dream. They can be healed and become good Heroes, who heal the Dream. None of those in the book, but still. They're basically wOoD Hunters, but instead of Messengers, they get visions from the Primordial Dream,as nightmares.

I honestly like them. Even the neckbeard. Not the Mark Strong one. He's boring.
I like the implication that Sleeping Beauty rejected the Devouring, but that's my headcannon

>>47840849
Both would. It isn't a mechanic so much as a last minute addition to placate people.

Also, basically Beast is Geist's spiritual sequel. Neat ideas, thrown together with bland mechanics and no real setting. But hey, Beast does have Lairs if you want to play spooky Animal Crossing.

>>47841034
Beast can be played like Hunter. Just be a vigilante. Go meet other monsters

Like Mage without the incentives.

>>47841140
>Just be a vigilante

So your Hero opponent would be a 'by the book' detective, who believes that without following the law, and having a trial, you corrupt the very Idea of Justice?

Chaotic Vengeful vs Lawful Lawful Lawful Good?

I like this concept.

>>47841227
Your Hero could just be another vigilante. They don't need to be your opposite. Could be Azrael to your Batman. Or Daredevil and Punisher.

>>47841227
Let me guess, the Horror of the Beast in question looks vaguely like a bat...well, it has a batlike silhouette, anyway.

>>47841301
>Or Daredevil and Punisher.
Wouldn't that be more a case of two Beasts coming to blows over territory? I can definitely see Frank Castle as an Anakim Nemesis, while Daredevil might be considered an Ugallu with the same Hunger.

>>47840900
>Beast has so many good ideas handled badly.

I watched the bloodsuckers of the Lancea Sanctum preforming their mockery of a Catholic mass, the preacher ranting that they were chosen by God to bring fear to the hearts of men.
At the time I rejected the idea, still hating myself for the choice I had made. To accept a release from fear that plagued me all of my life, I reached out and grabbed what was offered to me. I became a monster.

Now I am both fearless, and fearsome. In my newfound strength, I gained a lot, but I think I also lost something.

Nietzsche saw the Ubermench as something to aspire to, beyond-human being who crafts his own values, his intellect freed from social constraints, he can do what he thinks is best.
In my new state, I don't feel fear, or shame, or guilt. I spent most of my early years worrying about how others saw me, what they would think of me. No more! All that is left is my Intellect forcing me to think what I path I consider most worthy of my newfound life.

Why craft rules for yourself to follow, when you are confident of making the right choice in the moment, your mind giving you an unclouded vision of your life. Free to choose if this time you feel like displaying the Virtue of Ayn Randian Selfishness, or chose to act as an ascetic, or be a martyr, take what you need, or help someone you like?
When I was a human, things were different. I was dependent on those links with others that we call society. My best hope for achieving something grand with my life, in light of my meager strength, was inspiring others to act with a shared purpose.
But I have freaking superpowers now! Society might not be aware of it, but subconsciously it is forced to adapt to my existence.
And now, after all of this navel-gazing, I have come full circle to that vampire doctrine.
I have made up my mind. For now I will be the Beast that makes the human horde run in the direction that I deem Right.

>>47841355
Or Punisher is a Hero who sees Daredevil as a worthy challenge. Though he didn't really want to fight him. Maybe Daredevil is the Hero, who wants to take down this crazy murder Beast who teaches the lesson "Fuck criminals".

>>47841785
What

>>47841079
>Beast does have Lairs if you want to play spooky Animal Crossing.
Legitimately the best thing in Beast.

>>47842381
Beast game where the Brood goes on a road trip to build the best Lair. Like Sam & Max Hit The Road, but with occult shot. Nightmare Americana.

Nightmericana.

>>47842280
He obviously wrote up an in-character Beast thing. I thought it was good.

Life effects can make lasting changes by accelerating natural processes. Could you accelerate things like muscle atrophy or cancer growth? The former sounds more like a Death effect, but not too sure if you could even target cancer, given that it's a part of a pattern, rather than having a pattern all of its own.
>inb4 pregnancy chestburster

>>47843471
I don't see why you couldn't achieve muscle atrophy or cancer on a victim with Fate and Time, why not be useful and use those instead?

>>47843505
Would time aging them be lasting? I know Weight of Years would do lasting damage, as direct damage spells do, but something like a tilt or condition would be keyed to duration. Besides, Time/Fate dickery is boring because it's so easy.
You can age someone into dust with Indefinite Duration Shifting Sands and Gnosis 3-4 (it'll trigger every hour and send them back a full scene, as per the reach option).

Besides, I'm trying to play with a group, not argue about the exact interpretation of rules.

>>47843471

Both Life and Death could cause and accelerate cancer and muscle atrophy, yes.

It's taken me a long time to accept this, guys, but I can't deny it anymore.

Vampire bores me now. There's almost nothing in it I like. It's one of my least favorite WoD lines now.

RIP my first exposure to WoD.

>>47845025
Opposite here.
I've never really played Vampire, and it's the one I want to try the most.

>>47845084
I used to really love Vampire, but the love has turned to ash in my mouth. I don't like the nocturnal focus, I don't like being undead, I don't like their weird nonsensical midnight societies, I don't like how contradictory everything is. I'm not interested in blood and politics that have no good reason to care about in the first place. I'm not interested in the social dramas of a species biologically designed to hate one another.

>>47845125
>>47845025
Have you played Requiem 2e?

>>47845501
Yes, and I've become quite tired of it. It's better than 1e and Masquerade, but still too many issues for me.

>>47845548
In the immortal words of Atamajaki.
If your problem is "I don't like the core premise of a game," consider that your solution might be "play something else."
What sort of play style are you looking for?

>>47845693
>consider that your solution might be "play something else."

Yes, that's what I do. I wasn't asking how to make Vampire better, I was announcing I'd finally accepted Vampire doesn't appeal to me anymore.

>>47845693
His sig really is spot on, if boring.

>>47845025
Read Damnation City. Vampire is supposed to be played like game of thrones intrigue between nobility but in a modern setting.

Reagents fighting reagents to please the prince In aims for power, all through pawns within the society. Then add double crossing and secrecy and you got a vampire game.

>>47845711
So then once again what sort of theme or mood appeals to you?

>>47845783
>Read Damnation City
I have. It was a nice book, but doesn't address the fundamental problem with Vampire politics and social intrigue: none of them have any reason to care. Vampires intrinsically hate one another, require human interaction to maintain their sanity, and are perfect solo hunters who require no assistance from their peers. A solo Vampire can have any sort of lifestyle he or she wants with no problems whatsoever forever.

The politics is just too forced. Why do Vampires even listen or care? Why compete for favor? Who are you trying to impress and why? What's the Prince get? It's all meaningless.

The best explanation is that Vampires just do it to not be bored, but that's not a compelling play experience.

>>47845807
I play Werewolf, 100%. Best WoD line.

>>47845840
I always wondered if it was actually because vampires can hardly find employment and have to get in on elder vampire money laundering... Also hunting is hard when you have elders pissed off about hunting grounds, but I'm sure they're just being hoity toity cause they actually have some crazy real estate scam going and feel they can tell everyone off.

>>47845840
>Werewolf, 100%. Best WoD line

I can't say that I "get" werewolf, even after reading through the main book.

What makes it so compelling for you?
What type of activity is at the chore of a good chronicle?
Are they really just Spirit-Police?

I'm out of the loop. I used to play everything in the old WoD, but the new lore was disgusting to me. Did it ever get better? Anything on a new-new-WoD?

>>47845926
They aren't Spirit cops. More like a gang. Maintain your turf.

>>47845971
There's this infamothable being called the God Machine that keeps things in check but in a cold logical machine kinda way.

Demons are its servants who have rebelled against it and the game plays like a gothic spy flick. They're one of the strongest splats around.

>>47845971
If you hate nWoD as a setting, we can't help you. No accounting for taste.

"Disgusting"? Really?

>>47845918
The whole idea of "hunting grounds" is just insane. Low BP vampires can feed off animals and high BP vampires can't feed off mortals. There's no real competition for food. It's not like blood is a scarce resource, there's an overabundance of it. Mortal society can support vastly higher numbers of vampires than canon ever suggests exists.

Difficulty making money? The blood bond turns any mortal into a resources slave. Every vampire can easily achieve whatever lifestyle makes them most comfortable. They want to be rich, middle class, chill in a biker gang, whatever, it's on the table.

>>47845926
>What makes it so compelling for you?
The intense physicality and brutality, the uncomplicated social dynamics that revolve around a pack/gang mentality and might makes right, the Shadow and animist world that lets you engage the environment on a literal level unavailable to other splats, and being a fuck-off huge murderbeast.

>What type of activity is at the chore of a good chronicle?

For me, I like the hunts and the spirit interactions.

>Are they really just Spirit-Police?

You could describe the Forsaken like that, but I prefer the Pure, so it doesn't bother me. But even that's too simple a label. They're not Police in that they're enforcing some sort of laws or a sense of justice, they're gangs that keep spirits and mortals and other supernaturals in line so their turf, their business, and their personal interests go the way they want.

Werewolves aren't nature paladins.

>>47846013
Demons aren't what I'd call gothic. Its like James Bond, Robert Ludlum, The Matrix, DC's Lucifer, and The Prophecy thrown in a blender.

>>47845926
They are an anomaly in WoD in that they are a group that has every reason to form close knit groups that are willing to die for each other.
The pack is your family, your crew, your territory is your home, your castle and estate.
You are born to a mighty legacy too great for your shoulders, but you are expected, and indeed your soul yearns, to beaar it on your own legs as far as you can go.
You will die, violently, but the end isn't the point, it's what you do on the way for you and yours, and what your death means for those who remain after.
It's the game for every WoD player who is tired of backstabbing and mistrust, intrigue among the players for little real gain, who want actual brotherhood.

>>47845025

I think part of the problem is the political focus. Let some other game handle courtly intrigue and petty bickering; Vampire should feel like Hotline Miami on steroids.

>>47846073
>I prefer the Pure
Anshega pls leave

>>47846034
This.
No, NWoD will not, nor ever be, OWoD, so why ask bout it at all?

>>47846133
The political focus is a huge problem in a line that says everyone hates each other and is a self-sufficient island that derives no greater benefit from cooperation or mutual protection than they gain just by being a not absolutely retarded loner.

There's just not enough vampires to warrant political structures, and there's not enough meaningful relationships between them to justify their social drama.

>>47846073
>there's an overabundance of it. Mortal society can support vastly higher numbers of vampires than canon ever suggests exists.
The point you are missing with this is being able to do it while remaining under the radar. Despite what you may think, unless you are in a 2nd world or less nation, unusual maladies, even in the worst of areas, are noted and documented. Going ham will lead to someone looking into you.

>>47846133
How is that Vampire? That's more Changeling. I even wrote that for Changeling.
https://tmblr.co/ZIFdmwyUX1hh

>>47846133
Thing is, there's no other splat better suited to it.

Vampires, being immortal, have the potential to have decades long feuds, their ability to enslave entire armies of followers to their blood leaves them with swathes of devoted, easily disposable pawns, their powers usually working on a more personal scale are better suited to political situation than many other splats.

And bar the Stryx, they don't really have an existential foe, leaving them less worried about hiding from the big nasties, and more worried about the competition.

>>47846210
>The point you are missing with this is being able to do it while remaining under the radar.

No, I've considered that. Take under 4 blood from any given individual and they'll be fine. Lightheaded for a day or two, but not in any danger, not sick, not dying. Vampire feeding is non-lethal and relatively unintrusive, and their powers make it very subtle unless they want to make it pointlessly loud.

And that's ignoring that the elders will only be feeding on other Vampires, and the weaker vampires can feed on animals.

>>47846179
But the game repeatedly hammers home that vamps need other vamps.

Its a support group, but of shitty people being shitty and not wanting to admit they don't wanna be alone in shittiness.

>>47846133
Let me be honest. Everytime I try to run Vampire as political intrigue my players turn it into bullet time kung fu fights

>>47846210
>The point you are missing with this is being able to do it while remaining under the radar
Most factions have 1-2 big nasty organisations who like the status quo, and are very interested in keeping all evidence of the Supernatural on the downlow.

And also as said in the core book, and confirmed by the devs, the people of Chronicles of Darkness as a whole just don't want to know, and they repress the knowledge of whatever they've seen. Forgetting so they can get on with their lives.

>>47846133
Did I summon a Atamajaki?
Cool good to see you here.

>>47846228
This is why I preferred the VII. They were such a mysterious anomaly anyone who bothered to care was seen as crazy till it eventually blind sides all of society.

>>47846268
Because why fucking bother with politics bullshit.
Sure, have your fucking ivory palace, go wild.
Have you seen all the cool powers and shit we have?
I'll be over here, doing flips and shit and punching Werewolves in the dick.

>>47846261
>But the game repeatedly hammers home that vamps need other vamps.
It might say that, but it's wrong to do so. Vampires are worse for each other than being a lone wolf. The Beasts agitate, you're in more danger and thus more prone to frenzy, you can't even feed on your peers without risking becoming a slave.

If you want companionship, thrall a mortal. You can have all the love and friendship you desire, and the mortal can serve as a Touchstone to keep you from going insane, and isn't a likely threat with its own Beast and predatory aura.

Vampires have nothing to offer other Vampires.

>>47846073
>but I prefer the Pure
But the Pure are evil. Like, Fire-Touched are legitimately the best of the three Tribes, and they are crazed fanatics.

>>47846317
They're all "evil". That's why they don't have any sort of human Integrity meter. They're not ruled by human ethics.

>>47845840
For the same reasons why people form groups and governments. If you go off and do your own thing, the easiest way for someone to fast track their advancement is to off you and take your shit. To prevent this you make pacts with neighbors and allies with similar interests.

Now vampires are effectively immortal until killed, so all of the land has been divided up. Unless you get permission to hunt on someone's turf, you're trespassing. Don't know enough about vampires, but it might make it ok for the locals to off you as your mere being there is a crime. You could off the local owner or try to fill a vacuum after the locals get offed by unrelated events, but chances are that their allies have a legitimate claim to the territory instead. Not to mention that they're likely more powerful than you and that there are other hazards for vampires in the world that a fledgling wouldn't necessarily know about.

Vampires have to be picky about who they embrace, because they don't want to make the vampire that overthrows them. Like with economic inflation, unless you're growing your power at the same or greater speed as your peers, you're falling behind and they might decide to eliminate you just so there's one less variable to worry about in the long run.

Vampires need blood, that's a given. Blood may be plentiful, but you don't want others to have drastically more than you because it then gives them the power to act on their greed for yours.

>>47846013
>>47846124
I think the book referred to it as Gnostic. You know there's more to the world and you've offended your progenitor. A normal human life without worries was never on the table for you.

>>47846299
"Sure just do it off my turf" - said the vampire owning every turf

>>47846228
Hunters and pretty much anything that doesn't like having vampires around. Not to mention that a higher portion of the vampire population is liable to be an asshole because of the inherent superiority complex.

>>47846317
All Uratha are "evil", kill someone? You just shift towards Spirit. Gorge yourself on hamburgers and you're closer to flesh again.

>>47846357
>For the same reasons why people form groups and governments.
But this only happens when there's sufficient numbers of people and sufficiently limited resources to make competition necessary.

Vampires don't compete; they're too small a population. There are too many resources for even maximally consumptive vampires to use up.

There's also a finite amount of Blood a vampire can have at any given time, and it's a relatively small volume. That it's a renewable resource with ample supply is just icing on the cake.

>>47846357
>I think the book referred to it as Gnostic
"A Game of Techgnostic Espionage". Which is a made up bullshit word, but no less awesome sounding.

>>47846358
>>47846333
The Pure literally have Supervillain goals like "destroy the world" and "rule the world again". At least Forsaken usually care about not killing people. Innocent people, I mean. Pure don't even consider themselves part human. They're Nazis and shot.

>>47846333
well actually the entire struggle of all the different splats it's their tie to humanity, trying to live as human as possible (wolves living a duality).

just because they don't have human morality doesn't mean they're evil.

>>47846511
>At least Forsaken usually care about not killing people.
Uhh...

> Innocent people, I mean

But this isn't true at all. There's an entire tribe that considers anyone who steps on their turf to be fair game for horrible deathmurder.

Werewolves aren't good. They're good to each other, usually, and their loved ones, but they're distinctly incompatible with the ethical standards of civilization as a whole.

>The Pure literally have Supervillain goals like "destroy the world" and "rule the world again".

As for this, so? It's not like they're real. Playing someone interested in world domination or destruction is plenty fun.

non WoD dm/st here. What books have the guides on creating good NPCs with "doors" that the players have to open to get people to do things?

I remember reading that and thinking it would help a lot with my non WoD campaign.

And for what it's worth, I'd totally play WoD if I could get my friends to play anything other than DnD.

I mean it's partly because potency goes up regularly with time and accidental murder due to blood frenzy is a thing, and who's gonna have your back then? Vampire society.

Or when the higher ups need their Supply of vitae what's stopping them from just eating the first vamp that walks down the street? Also what about diablerie? All that shit is covered by vampire checks and balances.

And you know elders that need vitae accidentally make blood bonds with people that don't have their best interest or societies at hand.

>>47846333
>>47846358
From a Werewolf perspective they are evil. Like, even the Fire-Touched think killing and torturing other Werewolves is bad, they just think they're justified in doing so. The Ivory Claws and the Predator Kings serve patrons that hate them. Silver Wolf is pissed because he tried to kill Father Wolf and Luna cursed him for it and Dire Wolf hates all Werewolves because "muh hunters paradise." The Pure let the spirits run amok because it grants them greater influence, something Father Wolf was opposed to.

They betray Father Wolf by shirking his ancestral duty while claiming to be his rightful heirs.

>>47846538
No real good NPC guide. I just use a quick npc maker and estimate what RES + COM would be.

>>47846611

The Pure totems are totally jerks. I doubt the Forsaken totems are much nicer to people, on the whole; they're still distant, all-powerful spirits.

>They betray Father Wolf by shirking his ancestral duty while claiming to be his rightful heirs.
Father Wolf is rotten bones and contradictory ideas held by people who never knew him. There's nothing to betray and there's no duty to respect unless you want to.

As for the Pure being evil from a werewolf perspective.. well, no. They're evil from the Forsaken perspective, but the Pure are werewolves too.

>>47846532
>well actually the entire struggle of all the different splats it's their tie to humanity, trying to live as human as possible

We discussed in this very thread that Morality and Beast don't mix.
Are you sure every splat cares about being human?

>>47846410
Vampires can also embrace others of their flock to make a small army for no other reason than to fuck shit up. People make gangs to have a social group and backup for their ridiculous bullshit. The world technically has enough money for everyone to live relatively well off (a tiny bit above 1st world poverty cutoffs), but instead you have people hoarding billions for the sake of others not having it.

>Vampires don't compete
Adorable. The critical mass for competition is pretty low for people and even lower for vampires.

I like to see Vampires as boardroom executives. They didn't make it there on their own, they had a patron. Maybe they want to make them proud, or outshine them or acquire more wealth and standing for themselves. Some get high off lording over others, while others are just assholes because they feel they deserve it by being better.

>>47846511
"Techgnosis" by Erik Davis (1994)

>>47846642
No, I definitely remember reading this. It was a whole chapter about how the ST should set up player motivations, and persuading them to do something should be a drawn out affair, where the players have to approach from multiple different angles/talents. Like it was a nice system where you wouldn't have just a persuade check like in DnD. Instead, you could persuade someone by making arguments, fixing their computer, etc. It would all be to open doors, and different things would require different numbers of doors to open. It also had a system for forcing things, but it would also burn bridges

>>47846642

I think he means which books have some fluff examples or guidelines for coming up with what doors mechanics represent for a particular character.

>>47846703
Practically every splat does to some extent.

>>47846739
>Adorable. The critical mass for competition is pretty low for people and even lower for vampires.
It's not all that low. We have a very long human history before war was any real meaningful thing. If vampires had higher requirements or Blood was in lower supply, I'd buy them fighting and competing (and thus leaning toward social structures in order to avoid all-out war that fucks them all over).

But as it is, there's just too much for them. The game creates these political conflicts but lacks the IC environment that would create it, so it just winds up being vampires being bored dicks doing bored dick shit.

>>47846649
Let's talk about Werewolf morality and ethics then. It is incorrect to say that they have neither because they are not human, for humans themselves created the standards by which they live. Werewolves merely have a different set of morals than humans.

This can be seen in the conflict between the Pure and the Forsaken. The Pure claim the moral high ground by saying they are the loyal children while the Forsaken are the bad children who betrayed Father Wolf. As they claim their moral superiority through being the good children, It is hugely hypocritical to shit all over his legacy.

>>47846814
>Werewolves merely have a different set of morals than humans.
Yes, that is what I said: werewolves do not have human's ethical codes.

The Pure absolutely do not live up to Father Wolf's standards. They use him, cynically, as a tool of propaganda. The Forsaken do the same thing- they're failing to live up to Urfarah's legacy more than succeeding.

But it really doesn't matter, because it's just lipservice in both cases. No one really cares about Father Wolf. He was dead ten thousand years before your great-great-grandparents were shooting their way out of their own fathers.

He's a symbol. It isn't actually important to honor him or live up to him, what matters is to the extent exploiting his name can benefit your goals.

Think of it like people citing the Founding Fathers. Odds are they'd have no strong opinion on whatever the fuck you're doing or talking about. And you don't really care about them. You're just cynically using them.

Does any supernatural class of will cause a mages nimbus to flare?

>>47846703
Thats why beast is the most shit splat. Every splat deals with the question "what does it mean to be human" while beast runs around acting like a retard.

>>47846979

Clashes of will don't flare the nimbus at all.

It only flares if they cast a spell.

>>47846807
Your ignoring that vampires are not an island. A vampire sires three children and puts them to work. Eventually he names a successor and decides to enter torpor. One child is jealous and decides to fight the heir for control. Because they were both in charge of managing different groups of people in the expansive web of their sires interests, they both have some major power to swing around. They are both crafty and cunning, so the fight lasts for decades, if not centuries. They too sire children to help them fight each other, so more vampires are dragged into their war.

Eventually the violence gets so bad that people take notice and hunter start coming out of the woodwork. The third brother who fucked off to do whatever decides that shit won't fly because it's blowing back on him. He decides to get together with some other vamps who are having trouble and they pool their resources to put a stop to stop the fighting and cover stuff back up enough that hunters stop coming after them. When the dust settles they decide to keep their little group together to make sure they don't have to worry about hunters in the future.

Bam, vampire politics.

>>47846886
Cynically using a symbol only works if you have true believers. Werewolves aren't perfect, rational beings and can believe in things just as strongly as humans.

>>47847001
The most damning thing about Beast is the utter lack of any true direction besides "You're spooky, go "teach" people." Even that aspect about it is undermined by the text itself, saying that beasts are no longer needed by humanity.

Perhaps instead of focusing on the teaching aspect, maybe the search for a new purpose should have been the focus, with different groups focusing on different aspects of their newfound condition. Probably a bit too similar to Demon or Vampire, but I think it would be interesting, especially if those groups actually had different connections to the other various splats that Beast seems to want to draw from.

>>47847038
>Your ignoring that vampires are not an island.
Vampires absolutely are islands by nature. They hate other vampires, don't need them for anything, and derive all meaningful social contact from humans (this is why vampires can't be touchstones).

If your argument is that every Praxis is actually just legions of childer relatives bickering, sure, that could work. A family feud is a working social structure. It's just not one the book treats as default.

>>47847095
Sure. And I'm sure many do believe they're (dis)honoring Father Wolf in various ways. But it's a superficial care.

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>>47846979
Only when someone uses an Aura effect on you, and you win.
Otherwise your nimbus flares when you cast a spell, or flare it for all to see using Mana.

>>47846807
Competition and all out war are different things. Previously, war was very difficult to justify because so much communal effort had to be spent to make enough food to sustain everyone. Even then, there were intercommunal competitions for things like mates and status. Hermits are always possible, but forming at least small communities are beneficial for managing the risks of random misfortune.

Families and siblings compete to varying extents and that shit is outright unavoidable the way vampires are made.

I get if none of it feels compelling, or the reasons to reject the ingrained vampire politics are more compelling, but this is part of the game's buy in.

>>47847108
>beasts are no longer needed by humanity
Maybe Beast is about delusion... not the otherkin "true self" stuff, but about their place in the world. Humans have existential crises, but beasts have an actual essence. One that is no longer needed by humanity. Some try to impose it on humanity anyway as a sort of zealotry, while others might spiral into a crisis of discovering their essence only to have to reject it to function.

>>47846807
Why do you think the conflicts are about blood?
Why does everyone talk about how they have no reason to fight "because lets face it there is blood everywhere!" When that was never the reason they fought.

Vampires are predators. They are contradiction creatures. They hunt alone but seek company. Their blood calls to others of their kind. They fight because people fight. They are often Competitive, Wanton or even Monstrous to each other and the world around them.

Claiming territory isn't about the blood, it was never about the blood(well if the population is low enough then sure, it might be about the blood, or if the vampire in question is BP 6 and doesn't have a set of children to feed from) its about keeping those assholes in line as they burn the city down around them doing their stupid shit. Vampires pretend to be human but every time that button is pushed all but their saints turn into raving assholes. You don't let people feed near you because they can be poisoning your well and making all your sheep turn on you(or be literally poisoning you). You look after everyone around because in case you haven't noticed you are a member of a race of creatures were over half to population has access to some form of mind control or magic. If 1 of these naturally born asshats decides to fuck with you then you are screwed.

So you set up walls. Tell people that if they fuck up in your town you are going to bring the hammer down on them. You create enough spawn to maintain control but not enough that you can't monitor everything they are doing for even the smallest hint of betrayal. You keep an eye on everyone and tell no one what you are doing because all it takes is one mistake and you are impaled on a spike on the roof as the sun rises.

The question of "should I own territory?" has the same answer as "Does someone want to kill me?"

>>47847161
I'm assuming it's the same for attainments right?

>>47847210
>Why do you think the conflicts are about blood?
Because blood is the only resource Vampires really care about. Feeding is their most visceral pleasure and Blood fuels every single aspect of their eternal lives. Everything else is trivial- wealth is trivial, fame is trivial, strength is trivial. Vampires struggle for nothing.

It's why they're always, inevitably so bored.

As for having territory, that makes you easier to fuck with, not harder. Claiming a place tells others where you feed and live and invest.
>>47847197
>Competition and all out war are different things.
This is true, and small scale competition between vampires is believable. But not the complex political systems, the covenants, the grand social passion plays, etc., etc. There's just not enough of them for it.

Yes, accepting those institutions are in place and that vampires care is part of the buy in. As I can't buy into it, I'm not a Vampire fan.

>>47847251
Probably.

>>47846130
This
Unless you play with idiots. Had a guy in my group trade his great klaive with me for a pound o' semtex so he could blow up a house.
Hes essentially the murderhobo of the group.

>>47847197
>Beast is about delusion
I'd certainly say so, at least on the part of the Devs. I feel like Beast is an interesting concept, at least in the fashion that they consider themselves "proto-monsters." But for whatever reason, they injected this odd dichotomy of Heroes and Monsters and stories, and that the Heroes were actually the bad guys.

Really, if they just stuck with the family concept and ran with it all the way home I think we would have a much more fun game. Focus on Beasts emulating the tactics and powers of their newfound kin, make them play nice with other splats. I feel like the Devs were too afraid of the crossover concept and only tacked it on instead of fully embracing it, but at the end of the day it was all Beasts truly had anyway. Its a damn shame, too.

>>47846281

First time I've heard that. Been more focused on Shadowrun while we're waiting for the Dark Eras Companion drops and we hear more about Scion.

2hu shit this place up real good.

>>47847693
Mechanics arguments are tiresome, so any shift in the monotony is favourable.

>>47847911

I'm all for mechanics talk, but two straight weeks of text walls and screaming at Dave was exhausting to read. It also forced these threads to be Mage-only, which isn't ideal.

I hope that's the end of it all.

>>47847973
Nope he will be back. Hell he's already tried talking about normal CofD so we're fucked.

By the way how did your submission go for Onyx Path?

>>47848079

Haven't heard back yet, but I didn't expect to hear anything before Gen Con.

I'm irrationally afraid that my posting here has completely fucked me.

>>47847124
I want to reply to this post, but the board thinks my post is spam. Anyone know why?

>>47848138
What like how "whats her face" was fried for play testing with fucks in this thread?
I guess as long as you don't leek anything or playtest with us you should be fine. I mean DaveB, DaveH, Chris all post here.

>>47848162
Well there is a couple of reasons for example you can't post the same exact thing to the same post twice.

>>47848188
>leek anything
Or publically criticise another project. Though really that's basic tact.

>>47848213
Professionalism. Something a surprising number lack.

>>47848327
Mostly because they're not really professionals.

>>47847973
You're worse than Aspel sometimes, you know that?

>>47848498

I try.

>>47848138

I post all the time and somehow I keep getting work.

>>47848657
Indeed fellow Anonymous poster.
How surprising.

>>47848657
Yeah, but you're also not a tripfag

>>47848657
Do you have a trip? You are anon unknown.

Does anyone know a good source for oWoD pdfs? I'm looking for Werewolf stuff, specifically Revised era books.

>>47848910
The internet

>>47849050
As if I haven't spent the last hour searching around for them as it is.

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>>47847161
Of course Mages are better at resisting auras than everyone else, why wouldn't they be?

>>47849180

Seriously? They're all on 4shared, or in the OP Pastebin.

>>47849180
Retard
look in the pastebin

>>47849355
>>47849368
My bad. I scanned the Pastebin and saw a bunch of nWoD links, didn't realize the MEGA link had oWoD too.

In oWoD, could a Vampire keep up a level 2 bloodbond? There is a strange situation in the campaign I'm storytelling and we're at the rare point where we've found a sympathetic Ventrue.

>>47849249
Have you actually read how it works?
Mages just roll Gnosis + Resistance Attribute
Just like how Vampires roll Blood Potency + Resitance Attribute.
And Changelings roll Wyrd + Resistance Attribute.
And everyone fucking else rolls Power Stat + Resistance Attribute.

When they say "particuarly resistant" they're talking in reference to a normal, average, everyday human who doesn't have a power stat.

So yeah.
Mages are more resistant to the effects of the Supernatural than Frank Brown the out-of-work Clown.

>>47849477

bago sinulid

>>47849485
Fucking flip

>>47846886
Well at least they are (kind of) following him and want nothing to do with Lul'Aya