Pathfinder General /pfg/

Anyone have a clue if Invulnerable Rager's Damage Reduction stops the feedback from the Vicious weapon enchantment?

>>47801889
Second for elsbeth

Also can someone post the page of bloodline mutations from magic tactics toolbox?

>>47801949
You have Weapon Finesse and a weapon that you can Finesse and have Weapon Training for, but that doesn't get dex to damage.

So rapier with weapon training 2. You finesse it and add your dex to hit, but you can increase your +2 to damage from weapon training to +4.

>>47801961
It doesn't.

>>47801983
Thanks heaps, good sir!

How do I get Weapon Training?

>>47801995
It's a Fighter class feature.

>>47802003
>Fighter
>class feature

>>47802003
Oh shit, that completely slipped my mind

What happens to those archetypes that are forced to replace that feature? Can they benefit from advanced weapon training at all? Seems like a goddamn waste

>>47801889
Fucking Tashanna.
A pity she belongs to Greyhawk and Paizo doesn't haves the rights for make her appear in AP because I would love to break her pretty face.

Advanced Weapon Training should have the total fighter level as the bonus

What does /pfg/ think of Sage familiars, and would you play a class that locks your familiar into that archetype? What are some familiar related things you'd want to see in a class? What is your favorite familiar from both the normal and I proved lists?

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>>47802040
Be careful you don't cut yourself on that edge

Would it be possible to port something akin to Symbaroum's corruption system to Pathfinder?

>>47801987
Source?

>>47802092
Vicious is untyped damage.
DR only stops physical damage.

>>47802092

Vicious isn't physical damage.

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>>47802071
Edge? This woman is the worst!
She is so fucking evil she didn't had to do much to seduce and woe a demon lord like Grazz't and in Golarioverse she impressed Baba Yaga enough to make the Queen of Witches spare her life.
She is the main reason evil like Iuz the Old One torment entire worlds. Her cunt have birth to super villains.

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>DM wants to include aspects of Shattered Star into his campaign

What am I in for, lads? What the hell does Shattered Star include that's so different from other APs?

>>47802082
Nobody knows what you're talking about, man. We need examples.

>>47802128
Absolutely nothing of value whatsoever.

>>47802108
Well in greyhawk lore she is the daughter of Baba Yaga. But that was established in 4E so it may be none cannon now.

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>>47802108

>>47802098
>>47802102
There's one thing that works though: Hardness.

Not as easy to get... but not impossible!

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>>47802128
I guess he means that is going to introduce some of the difficult encounters that is find in the AP.
Like the juju zombie bugbear, the eoxian lich, the medusa cleric, the nigh hag witch....

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>>47802128
>What am I in for, lads? What the hell does Shattered Star include that's so different from other APs?

Magical shards of some freaky bullshit ancient empire that will make at least one party member filled with the urge to get naked and fuck everyone.

I can't decide the class for my Heavy Armor Lance (well any polearm/spear really) and Shield guy.

Steelblood Bloodrager for better movement, haste, displacement, mirror image

Dragoon Fighter for even faster movement, better passive damage bonus and the ability to hit melee range with lance. Shit tons of bonus feat mean I can get whirlwind attack and combat patrol at some point.

Lamed Curse Shadow Oracle, because screw you, I'm a fullcaster in fullplate with an army 120% real shadow.

>>47802186
>I can't decide the class for my Heavy Armor Lance (well any polearm/spear really) and Shield guy.

Why not Cavalier?

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>>47802172
>freaky bullshit ancient empire
Are you talking shit of Thassilon biatch?

>>47802128

Shards maybe?

>>47802128
Maybe finding a pristine body of a beautiful woman in a casket and a party member dropping dead. Hope they like the new bod.

>>47802172
>this post

I'm very glad I went Promethean when my GM wanted to do Shattered Star. Not having to deal with that mindfuckery or other bullshit has been nice.

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>>47802202
>Are you talking shit of Thassilon biatch?

Thassilon is a boring ancient empire so generic that every AP it's featured prominently in falls apart the moment focus is put on them.

>>47802194
Already played a lance charge summoner, not my cup of tea.

>>47802186
Road Warrior

If you're a skelington and you're about to die but your 20th level psychic bloodline power kicks in mindswapping you both what happens to the guy who got stuck in your body?

>>47802082
That really wouldn't work in a high-magic system like PF.

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>>47802216
Okay m8, this is bait.
Thassilon generic my ass, the runelord of greed manage to stablish commerce routes into the Dreamlands and mainly the Plateau of Leng.
Most of the structures were built by stone giants and the army was constituted by giants commanded by übergiants capable of use rune magic.
Had lamias and dragons as public servants.
It started as a multi-cultural political project by an archmage called Xin but he was so optimistic (Papyrus level optimism, really) that he was in denial about his apprentices being fucking degenerates.
The main patron gods of this empire were a Lawful Evil goddes of magic, a Chaotic Neutral god/goddess/thing of doomsday and Faggotry: The deity.
If that is generic to you then must read some dope China Mieville shit.

>>47802288
Faggotry: the Diety, is that Aroden?

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>>47802311
No.
The Peacock Spirit.
But we call him Rolaids.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6t9g5p094g

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>>47802239

>>47802040
I thought that was Igwilv

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I am curious. How balanced is the Path of War classes and the disciplines? Which tier would you people throw them on?

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>>47801889
Why does she have a gauntlet on her sternum? On her left forearm, are those some sort of poison darts or a set of lock pics? Is she playing dungeons and dragons against herself?

Decent art, but I have so many questions.

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>>47802345
Her real name is Tashanna.
This is lore that comes from the original Dancing Hut of Baba Yaga module for AD&D. As you explore the pocket dimensions contained within the weird building you find a studio in which there are journals about the days Baba was teaching magic to a girl called Tashanna who used the nickname Igwilv for when streaking deals with evil outsiders, mainly demons.
She even used her real name when she was a member of the Circle of the Eight.

>>47802362
3, 3, 3, 3... pretty much all 3
I think maybe one of them was a 4 but I forget.

People who like having their Cleric lord over their CRB-Rogue-Serfs call them overpowered, as do those freaky fucks (but never attribute to incompetence that which can easily be explained by malice, as the saying goes) who pretend the core-only monks and fighter were balanced.

>>47802366
Six fingered gauntlet - symbol of the demon lord Graz'zts. it's the brooch for her orange cloak.Those are poison darts.

>>47802362
Definitely lower than tier 2. Probably not tier 3.

>>47802401
>Graz'zts
Is he related to Emperor Ding?

>>47802410
Actually the disciplines (and tier is a measure of max potential) available allow enough utility, versatility and support to qualify for tier 3.

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What are the best Paizo campaing settings?
What are those with the most waifus?

So I'm gonna be playing Pathfinder for the first time ever. I'm hoping to make a Witch or the male equivalent. I'll see how I want to do this when we start tomorrow. Basically, I just need some tips and things to avoid doing. The campaign is based on an ancient magical island with a strange city that loves arena battles. So lots of room for any scenario. I'm somewhat experienced with DnD and Dark Heresy, but that's about it.

>>47802461
>What are the best Paizo campaing settings?
Isn't Golarion the only one?

>>47802490
Probably meant APs.

>>47802490
You're right but there are many books about all the regions inside golarion

>>47801889
>>not summoning and binding demon lords like a normal wizard.
>Why?
Demon Lords in PF are actually a lot harder to bind than demon lords in 3.5e, entirely because you can't forcibly yank them with Greater Planar Binding.

Granted, it isn't impossible, but the main problem is that you don't have Implore (the 24 HD version of Planar Binding pre-boosters) in PF, and so the most you can do with regular GPB is 24 HD (18 + 2 Augment Calling + 2 Blackfire Adept + 2 Spell Perfection). That's enough to bind a Solar. But the weakest Demon Lords are at 30+ HD, which means the only viable option is Gate.

And yeah, you can use Gate to do it. But there's a slight downside to Gate - if the creature is unique, they can choose whether or not to answer it, you can't force them through. And all demon lords are unique. Fuck, you can't even bind a Nascent Demon Lord unless they (read: the GM) allows you to summon them via Gate, they're all 26+ HD, just barely out of reach unless there's another way of boosting the HD limits on GPB.

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>>47802554
It wasn't the Worldwound precisely opened because that crazy bitch who wanted to bind the demon lord of the Locust Host overdone it?

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>group wants me to run a game while regular GM is unavailable
>not really prepared for anything, don't want to do it
>always-fighter-or-slayer player says he'll play a bard
>thisIgottasee.png
>take about 20min to hack a straightforward labyrinth run together while they make characters (5th level because it's just the two of them)
>they make a UC rogue and a bard
>first session is "You've lost all memory of who you are, and who this person next to you is." >"Also, there's monsters."
>we all have fun, they almost die to a (wingless) manticore, pack of fast zombies
>second session, it's a rust monster and a verdurous ooze
>they evade the rust monster like it's a plague, nearly die to the ooze
>finally escape the labyrinth with their new hoard of loot
>I realize the bard not once used bardic performance
>mfw

>>47802362
They're all pretty solidly tier 3. It's a good way to bring up the level of martial characters, but still leaves a pretty huge gap between them and full casters.

What tier would be Aegis 3/Fighter X with the Student of the Astral suit feat?

>>47802362
>>47802393
>>47802410
>>47802647
I was under impression that classes themselves are T4 and that's supernatural disciplines that have enough utility to be considered T3.

>>47802613
No, it was because somebody imprisoned her (Areelu Vorlesh) for what were to her unfair reasons, and she went on a giant spree of "FUCK ALL YALL" and opened the rift, making a deal with Deskari. She's only 2CR below him, too, and could definitely kill him in a straight fight, by the rules.

I'm not sure what Paizo was trying to say with that.

>>47802672
The disciplines are part of the class, that's like trying to compare say wizards are t5 but with spells they're t1

>>47802689
She could had made the deal with Noctycula and perhaps things would had been at least more pleasant than having Deskari and Baphomet fucking around and being asshole dicks.

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/tg/, what's your favorite silly build in Pathfinder and why does it work?

>>47802672
If that's your impression you've failed to understand the tier system somewhat.

Tiers are determined by maximum potential attainable by a class - sometimes subidivided with archetypes (as a "variant" of the classes) as those can bridge the gap in classes particularly close to the line one way or the other.

In other words, the fact that they HAVE access (easily, through trait, archetype or tradition) to multiple disciplines means the classes are T3. You'd have to have a class that is completely incapable of anything other than one of the weakest ones like Tempest Gale, somehow not even able to gain others at all, to drop it to T4.

Similarly, it's not "The Wizard is Tier 6 but Conjuration is Tier 1 and Evocation is Tier 4". The Wizard is Tier 1. Those spell schools are things that it can do. Period.

>>47802613
Less bind, more get the insect dick in her.

>>47802740
>The disciplines are part of the class
Except you can't learn all maneuvers from all available disciplines, you can swap two available disciplines, and Aegis.

>>47802754
Single class or Gestalt?
A friend of mine is apparently like six classes with his gestalt right now, some convoluted mix he needed just for the concept he wanted

>>47802767
You can't learn all the spells as a sorcerer either. They're a part of the class, just because you don't get every single one of them doesn't mean they're aren't tied together.

>>47802672
Optimized choices are part of the tier system. A wizard isn't still going to be tier 1 if he always prepares shit spells, he's tier 1 because of what he does when he has the right spells prepared.

>>47802746
No ticks secretly wants to ascend and escape demon lord status via redemption, though, since she's s fallen Empyreal Lord. She wouldn't want to do an open invasion of the Material Plane, and it isn't her style anyway.

>>47802773
Gestalt sounds like cheating, desu.

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>>47802818
>Implying that her brother will let her become a CN deity.

>>47802839
Well sure if no one else in the party is one.

When everyone is Gestalt, preferably not with T1/2 classes, it's just gonna need a higher difficulty level.

You start facing liches and dragons a bit earlier, with less magic items usually.

Also a great alternative to Mythic; that or "everyone gets a free no-cost VMC progression" if you want something a bit less powerful.

>>47802754
Core Monk 20. It works because I actually know how to play the class and how to role-play my character to shape the campaign setting.

>>47802888
He said silly, not shitty, anon.

>>47802867
She's canonically almost to god hood, anon, the closest Demon Lord to it (Lamashtu is full God, Pazuzu is a little ways behind her). Socothbenoth ain't gonna say shit, she can just gank him too.

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Why do inquisitors lack Knowledge (local) as a class skill? Their Monster Lore class feature is made to work with all monster knowledge skills, and Knowledge (local) is the only monster knowledge skill they lack.

Are most inquisitors assumed to be ignorant of the actual towns and cities that they are supposed to investigate?

>>47802906
Just because y'all think your heimerdinger wizards are the best doesn't mean they actually are. You'll never actually have prepared what you need, it's all just munchkiny thought games. Monks are great, they're easy to build, amazing when mastered, and have tremendous role-play potential.

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>>47802962

When you've seen one shitty village populated by filthy, superstitious peasants who'd sell their souls to otherworldly abominations in a heartbeat if they only knew how, you've seen them all.

>>47802962
Probably because that's exactly it.
They ARE ignorant of where they're sent to, much like any witchhunter.

"Local" normally implies knowledge on the level of "Bob's seeing Bill's wife, while Bill is off to his secret thursday illuminati meetings. SPEAKING of illuminati, the mason lodge is actually actual masons, and they've never actually had any contact with any organizations. Tuesday is not known as "ladies night" so much as "gay orgy night" at the Brightwood Stag Tavern, but that's always been kept from the authorities because the lord would have them all killed - he's got a bit of highlander complex regarding buggery"

You walk into some town, looking for whatever witchhunt your inquisition style is after. You're hunting <thing> and travel a lot.

You know FUCKTONS of things... But the locals aren't exactly intimate with you, and you're not one of them.

It's dangerously (for those at the other end of your crossbow) realistic in that way.

>>47803038
>"Local" normally implies knowledge on the level of "Bob's seeing Bill's wife, while Bill is off to his secret thursday illuminati meetings. SPEAKING of illuminati, the mason lodge is actually actual masons, and they've never actually had any contact with any organizations. Tuesday is not known as "ladies night" so much as "gay orgy night" at the Brightwood Stag Tavern, but that's always been kept from the authorities because the lord would have them all killed - he's got a bit of highlander complex regarding buggery"

That's actually Diplomacy for gathering information, which inquisitors do have.

>>47802754
Normal classing? One level dip of charger cavalier, rest in Magus. Lightning Lance centaurs. I'll never get to do it, and it's dumb, but damn if it wouldn't be fun.

For gestalt? Sorcerer (Arcane, Fey, or both)||Vigilante (Stalker). Fully specced for enchantment, including race. Vigilante side is purely utility, with maybe the finesse talent slapped on as an afterthought. "That one social talent" taken as well, because I gotta make use of this CHA.

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So I talked about how I did some fighter changes last thread. I have them here.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1twEab3PBHvzMLTrx_UJak4P9g5avkvVaZfrBiMPI-6s/edit?usp=sharing

I had to write them in the last half an hour or so, transferring them from paper. I'm going to transfer the other equipment tricks tomorrow (I added more so that fighters could get variety). Here is the list of them:
>Disguise Kit Tricks
>Alchemist Lab Tricks
>Alchemist Fire Tricks
>Tanglefoot Bag Tricks
>Potion Tricks
>Scroll Tricks
>Bow Tricks
>Artisan's Tools Tricks
>Forgery Kit Tricks
>Healer's Kit Tricks

Is anyone interested in this, if so I'll try and transfer them all tomorrow.

Basically the change gave fighters A LOT more defenses than they had previously. I always envisioned fighters as the most defensive martial class, the one who could weather the storm. Their bonus equipment tricks are meant to give them things they can both do in and out of combat, allowing them little tricks brought on my improvisation. I added new tricks to existing items, and new items with tricks to give more options. In addition I changed how Advanced Weapon & Armor Training work, while adding new ones for both.

Check it out! I'd love feedback!

>>47802754
Wyrwood Alchemist with an Ioun Wyrd protector tumor familiar and Promethean Disciple. Could also go with a mauler for 3rd Level flight. Either way, you're a self-improving construct and can choose from any number of builds.

>>47802839
What if you have only two players? Or one?

>>47803057
That would be gathering it.
Knowledge(local) is recalling stuff you've learned/known over the years.

Diplomacy to get someone to tell you once in town.

Knowledge to have known this shit when someone asks in the middle of the woods.

>>47803200
How does Knowledge (local) make any sense as a skill anyway?

>>47803313
It used to be a knowledge(local)(*area*) but that was stupid because it required way too many skill points to be good. So they condensed it.

Soup /tg/ I'm looking for a one-shot adventure for a lvl 2-3 party, preferably between 4-8 hours long, any recommedations?

>>47802382
Aha. Well thanks for the explanation.

Who need Knowledge Local or Diplomacy when you can stalk people with spell (like Ear of the city)?

>>47801983
What about Dragoon's spear training? Is the final damage at level 17 double from +8 to +16?

>>47802757
>Tiers are determined by maximum potential attainable by a class
They aren't, though. They assume nebulous "average" competence, where the wizard player is good enough to not ban transmutation or conjuration and where the fighter player is good enough to go THF or archery instead of sword and board.

>>47803719
We already had this argument with 2hufag and he got BTFO for questioning tiers.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/starjammer/starjammerpreview1

>The abiarazi are a race of shape-changing oozes that can take on the form of other humanoids.

Literal goo girls
welp

>>47803733
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=658.0

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>>47802461
>>47802524

Tian Xia and Land of the Linnorm Kings.

>>47803751
I bet Paizo will manage to nerf even minor change shape. Like, 1-3 times per day for 10min/level.

>>47803751
Troy Daniels
Project Manager
StarJammer
d20pfsrd.com Publishing

Wait. That's not pathfinder in space, is it?

>>47803559
Yes. But it has to be a spear that you can finesse. AFAIK that's only the elven branched spear.

>>47803852
Get with the times, my man.

>>47803751
>his project was originally announced as "Starfinder" in 2015
>However, in early 2016 Paizo contacted me (John Reyst) after they discovered this project and found that they were also planning a product called Starfinder
>I was happy to oblige
Did Paizo just fucking cuck some people out of their own product. Holy shit.

Looking to tank up.
Level 5 right now.
My AC is fine, and I know that it's not important anyway.
I've got PoW counters and there's a Mystic giving me 20% concealment all the time.
What are my options for becoming even harder to hit or becoming able to take more hits?
Is there an item that grants you the effects of mirror image?
I've already got my eyes set on a +4 CON belt.
What else can I get that's reasonably cheap but good, other than the basic +saving throw / +ac items?
I know there's a stance for mirror image, but I don't have access to it, and the one I use is good enough anyway.
Any 3pp within reason.

>>47804004
You've neglected to mention what class you are.

>>47804020
Oh, I didn't think it mattered for wondrous items?
Warder.

>>47804004
They can't deal damage if they are dead.
+4 stat item is overkill at level 5, especially CON.
Advanced Study Crane or Flux so you always start encounters at full HP. If somethings chews through all warder's HP while he is under mystic buffs, either your GM is doing something wrong or you didn't listen to him telling you that shit's dangerous and you better not engage it.

>>47804034
It can be significant, as that informs the sort of things that benefit you best.

Have you taken a look at the Stupendous Strength Feat, from the Savage Races DSP book? The one with the ogres. it'll let you wield a tower shield without penalty, and let you shield bash with it, which means it'll be a flat +2 over a heavy shield at little extra cost.

>>47804093
>Savage Races DSP book
Wait, what?

>>47804089
Nah, I'm just built as much as a video game tank as I can be, so I'm usually eating like 80% of the encounter's damage.

>>47804093
I don't think I've ever heard of that book.
Is that new?

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>>47804106
>>47804129
Not really new, no. It includes monster classes for bugbears, Gnolls, and Ogres. It's little known and pretty cheap, costing only a couple dollars, so if you have the opportunity I definitely recommend picking it up, if for no other reason than because the feats are amazing. Pic related.

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>>47804161
>Duel wield two greatswords just as good as a lil bitchy rogue would dual wield daggers

>>47802754
Evocation sorcerer.

Varistian tatoo, spell specialization, spontaneous metamagic, rod of element switching...

Try to solve as many prolems as possible with fire damage.

Its actually a bit of a problem. 9d6+9 fire damage in a 20 foot radius is not something that most reasonable CL6 encounters can survive more than twice.

>>47804161
>Fun, interesting, and not too powerfull
I like this feat.

>>47804186
Spending two more feats than him on it. I'm not sure it's good even on daevic or aegis.
Though it looks like it doesn't remove reach from spears?

>>47804161
Now that's a feat.
Right? That's a real fuckin' feat.
Not like the shit we get from Paizo, like "+1 to dodge AC if you're moving across a thin surface and it's nighttime but only if you're being flanked."
Ugh, when is someone gonna take all the garbage feats and consolidate them into good ones?
Just the name "feat" implies it's gotta be something good, not some garbage stepping stone or tiny incremental bonus.

>>47804233
>Though it looks like it doesn't remove reach from spears?
This is what makes it good. You can now one-hand a reach weapon. Magus is much happier now.

>>47804243
>Now that's a feat.Right? That's a real fuckin' feat.
Though if you look at prerequisites, it might as well just be a thing granted to everyone with sufficient STR.

>>47802410
Zealots qualify for tier 2 with certain "campaign breaking" mechanics. Merely in that their presence forces drastic change in encounter design and combat expectations outside the norm of PoW classes. This qualifies them to brush the bottom of tier 2, particularly with the fact that grabbing disciplines is a thing.

>>47804386
Which game breaking abilities are those? Are they on par with gate, simulacrum, planar binding, planar ally or the like?

What are some fun animal companion options?

>>47803094
No thoughts? Should I put up the weapon tricks or no?

>>47804432
Roc

>>47804432
My personal favorites are the War Bull, since it's one of the strongest options you can get and goes large as early as level 4, the Roc, since it's a flying animal with some serious speed that you can mount, and the Allosaurus, for pure damage fun combined with grappling.

The mammoth/elephant/mastodon and ankylosaurus are better if you want a tanky companion, while the wolf is a great standby if your setting will have issues with you walking around with a huge monster of some description.

>>47801889
You start a Pathfinder thread with a pic of a classic Greyhawk NPC?
Curious.

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>>47801967
I gotchu senpai.

>>47804427
No, which is why they merely brush the bottom of tier 2. The abilities include things like short lived dominate monster in a cone (last two rounds, generally that's enough), death not mattering for a period of time, durability so strong as to make HP damage essentially meaningless, the ability to use counters through party members & strikes through party members thus being able to pick and choose who make what save (saving throws become a game of "if the zealot allows it"), constant telepathy (by itself is not that bad honestly, just a thing they have), and being about to outperform multiple other tier 3 classes at their job simultaneously.

A large portion of it has to do with a conjunction of their recovery mechanic being the strongest in PoW and allowing them to recover maneuvers and reuse turn after turn. This was strong before, but has been made MUCH STRONGER with the addition of the Fool's Errand Discipline.

Every turn a zealot now will have access to maneuvers of every discipline. This amount of variety warps combat all the more.

This does not change out of combat, but forces drastic changes inside of combat to deal with an entity like the Zealot. While full casters are able to warp OOC much more effectively AND IC. This is why they touch tier 2 but aren't fully in it. They are straddling the line.

>>47804525
Are there enjoyable golarion npcs?

>>47804563
Not really, no.
But it just amused me is all.
Oh wait! The Evil Queen from that one adventure path, she was kind of a fun villain.

>>47802754
The current gestalt nonsense I'm trying to build is a character based on using traps. Old Half-Elf Bramble Brewer-Trap Breaker-Dimensional Excavator||Snare Setter, taking Racial Heritage (Kobold). He's got shit physical stats but his Int is through the roof and everything scales off of it. Should be fun once I finalize the build.

Previous favorite was a guy who used poisons, but I retired him after I accidentally figured out how to kill an entire continent as a free action with poisons.

>>47804217
Please explain.

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>Gain Hide in Plain Sight
>Gain Freeze ability
>Have a ring that causes the area in a 5ft zone around my character to count as 1 step of lighting lower.

Sometimes its good to be able to just disappear.

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>>47802754
Still trying to get the final pieces together, but an Aspis Agent/Maneuver Master Monk who uses Flurry of Maneuvers to do a Dirty Trick flurry, then triggers all the attacks as an immediate taunt, something along the lines of "I already killed you" perhaps.

I just need a way to deal damage with Dirty Tricks.

>>47804648
cant they just follow your ring
you are still making the area less lit

>>47804553
>Every turn a zealot now will have access to maneuvers of every discipline
From... level 17 onward.

And only Level 7 maneuvers of most disciplines. Which isn't *bad* by any means, Level 7 contains a lot of solid staple high-level maneuvers, but still. You're overstating things a bit.

Zealot is a very powerful class that I would put near the top of T3 alongside Mystic (which can actually break into T2 with enough crafting shenanigans) But the power it shows at level 17 is nothing compared to what an actual T2 character has access to at that level - casters have 9th level spells at this point.

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>>47804607
A blaster sorcerer can achieve absolutely silly damage in an AoE with every casting.

On my current level 10 sorceress, she converts all her elemental damage spells to electricity, gains +1 damage per die on electric spells, and has another ability thanks to blood havoc (which you can see here >>47804528 ) to grant another +1 damage per die. She also has a rod of minor maximize and the Empower Spell feat.

When she chooses to unload, a fireball of hers will deal 5d6+90 damage. The average HP of a CR 10 creature (as listed on the "average" table) is 130, which means she'll generally deal more than 90% of a creature's health in one go, leaving the rest of it to be a mopup.

>>47802754
Single class, my favorite so far has been an Eternal Guardian focused Ravenlord. Takes a moment to come online, but Watchman's Rebuke is absolutely brutal on a Ravenlord who's already packing Weaken the Prey

>initiate a save-or-lose strike with a stratospheric DC because you're a Harbinger
>Enemy is auto-cursed by Gloom, so -2 to save
>They somehow beat the save anyway
>Your bird spends its swift action to initiate Watchman's Rebuke, forcing them to take a SECOND save at a further -2

Nothing short of straight immunity to whatever effect you're throwing at them will stop it.

>>47804688
In combat a zealot has far more impact than tier 2 casters. That is why I am saying they are straddling the line. Not only their access to maneuvers, but other things inherent to the zealot class including the creation zealot's ability to make his party near invulnerable (damage does not matter, ability score damage does not matter, effects can be suppressed, he can make party members pass saves, he can negate attack rolls on party members, the list is quite extensive).

A defense that solid outstrips most things a tier 2 caster brings to the table without spending 25k on a wish.

>>47804686
Well, usually I just find a little alcove or something to lean into, or scooch into a slightly shadowier out-the-way area while people leg it past me.
Basically I can drop to the floor in a slight dip on the ground and people'll use my ass as a stepping stone without ever realizing if I fancy.

How do you guys handle HP in your games?

My house rule is that at 1st level you gain your CON + Full Hit Die, and (1/2+1 Hit Die) + CON Mod per level till 11th, when you start to gain Full Hit Die + CON Mod.

I still can't believe how salty I am at Paizo for making the stupid scifi shit instead of a proper next edition
If I wanted to play scifi, I would play the countless fucking systems already on the market

>>47804792
Do you REALLY want to see another edition? They can't even make decent shit in this one.

>>47804762
That is really dumb. Health bloat for PCs is not a good thing.

I do it as standard, but players are allowed to take alternating high/low average instead of rolling (the high/low alternates each time starting low).

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Dreamscarred Press's monster classes now include the hound archon (awooo and so on) and the succubus:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mo1qncmq3dszp94/DRP2230_MonsterClassesSubscription.zip?dl=0

The hound archon seems mid tier* 4 at best, perhaps going up to high tier 4 at 6th-level, when it suddenly gets all of its actually decent abilities, such as at-will Greater Teleport (self only) and at-will Magic Circle against Evil. It could be high tier 4 all throughout its career with the true spellcasting option, but bard spellcasting with the cleric list is not stellar. The hound could badly use armor proficiency.

The succubus is a much more flexible and capable monster class, roughly mid tier 3 like the erinyes before it. It receives very nice ability score and skill bonuses, flight, defenses, and, at 3rd-level, at-will Change Shape for infiltration. Its spell-like abilities are much better compared to the hound archon's, although they pick up steam only at 3rd-level and beyond. The succubus gets truly ridiculous at 8th-level, when it receives at-will Charm Monster, at-will Suggestion, at-will Ethereal Jaunt (good for bypassing dungeons), and its energy-draining.

Why are these two monster classes so back-loaded onto their maximum levels? They could stand to have their abilities more evenly spread out.

I am unsure if this feat has existed previously, but there is a feat here called Full Immersion that gives excellent disguise benefits to anyone with shapechanging abilities.

*All projected tiers assume an "out-of-the-box" character. These monster classes have both a much higher optimization floor and a much lower optimization ceiling than regular PC classes, so a fully optimized tier 3 or 4 will obviously be much better than a fully optimized succubus or hound archon respectively.

>>47804811
I always customize my monsters, with templates and levels in PC classes, if I don't give them an extra juice they just die too quick.

>>47804718
>>47804217
Shit, I want to do stuff like this, being a blaster sounds fun as fuck, I don't know why I never pick it in tabletop.

>>47804718
Can't you do the same with Cross-Blooded Gold Dragon / Orc sorcerer and fire?

>>47804762
1st level is Con+full hit die+10, every level after is half your hit die+con.

Basically, just taking the 19 .5s you'd get over the 1-20 progression and frontloading them to avoid RDS.

>>47804837
You're really not doing anything but moving around the CR of the creatures and PCs. While I don't personally like it it's just a different way to play I suppose.

>>47804718
How do you get +1 to electricity spells?

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>>47804813

For reference, the Dreamscarred Press succubus receives a total of +16 Charisma over eight levels.

An 8th-level succubus who started with Charisma 18, placed their two level advancements into Charisma, and wears a Headband of Alluring Charisma +4 has a monumental Charisma *40*. That is exactly the same Charisma score as Nocticula, the Pathfinder cosmology's queen of the succubi.

Charisma 40 and Ability Focus (Charm Monster) means a DC 31 Charm Monster at-will at 8th-level, with neither verbal nor somatic components.

>>47804885
That's really fucking dumb. Really dumb.

>>47804876
RDS?

>>47804882
The players are heavy optimizers, so this extra HP helps them and the NPCs to not be one-shoted.

We also use Hero Points, and have an extra use of them to be able to nuliffy a critical hit by expending one of them.

>>47804850
Yeah, and that'd increase the damage overall, but the tradeoff is versatility; the Elemental arcana converting damage to a specific type means you can convert an enormous number of spells to your chosen element, and electricity and acid are much more rarely resisted than fire or cold.

>>47804884
Crossblooded Draconic (electricity)/Elemental (air). People say Crossblooded is a trap, but i feel you just need a specific build for it; blasters depend a lot less on high spell levels and more on using metamagic to make their low level spells awesome, and if you're human you can make up for the deficit using your favored class bonus.

>>47804885
>all of that
welp, I know what I'm showing up as a primary character sheet next game I'm in.
It will be immediately banned, but the look on his face will be worth writing it up.

>>47804908
Rusty Dagger Shanktown. The tendency for level 1-3 games to result in character death due to damage starting relatively high and health... not.

Later on, health grows in a way that's more even with damage, until iteratives get involved and it becomes rocket tag all around.

>>47804902
It's a class. You are EIGHT levels behind in CL at that point, making casters useless. Best class would probably be warlord, but he's still 2-4 IL behind.

>>47804941
I see, thanks for clarifying.

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>>47804902

By 8th-level, a succubus is indeed crazily powerful (partially invalidating my "a fully optimized tier 3 will obviously be much better than a fully optimized succubus" line above). They can trivialize an adventure by roaming around with at-will Ethereal Jaunt and at-will Greater Teleport and hurling at-will Charm Monsters and at-will Suggestions at anyone not immune to mind-affecting effects.

A 7th-level succubus, by comparison, is much more manageable in terms of power level.

>>47804943

An 8th-level, out-of-the-box succubus outshines the capacities of many a tier 3 build, but the succubus will not be particularly outstanding before that level or even after that level.

>>47804801
Atleast whatever it would be is not carrying 12 years of game design as baggage

>>47804902
Eh. It's a bit absurd but the monster classes are intentionally a bit unbalanced because they couldn't be arsed to balance them fully.

I like the succubus a lot and want to play it though.

>>47804813
>www.dropbox.com
Can you please upload it to zippyshare or anywhere else? I failed to download it with two browsers.

>>47805002
>at-will Greater Teleport
That shit needed to go as early as D&D 3.0

>>47804943
It isn't strong it combat, it's still retarded. 40 charisma is a stupid amount of charisma. You don't need all 8 levels. At level 3 you have +4 over your competitors and it provides a more valuable dip than pretty much anything else. Being a succubi 3/sorcerer (or oracle) 17 is a massive boon.

>>47805013
That's not intentional imbalance. That's internal laziness. They're more concerned with releasing content than releasing good content. This is why I have always been convinced that DSP is nearly as bad as Paizo, merely smaller.

>>47804607
>>47804849
Bloodline: Red dragon (gold works too, any that help with fire)

Feats: Spell focus (evocation), Mage's tatoo (evocation), Spell specialization (fireball, but you can change it every level)

You now have +3 CL on fireball and +1 CL on evocation.

your level 6 fireball is not a level 9 fireball.

Magical lineage (fireball) and spontaneous metafocus (fireball) and heighten spell let you scale your fireball damage well into level 12, which is high enough usually.

Because your main offensive spell is a 3rd level spell you have a ridiculous ammount of ammunition, AND lesser rods of whatever work on it just fine. Lesser rod of quicken is a good choice for higher levels.

It's actually incredibly powerful and fun. It tends to be best at around level 6 to 8, and then it scales off as elemental resistance and other effects make blasting less powerful.

Really solid way to play a sorcerer in my opinion. You spend most of your feats but you weren't exactly spending them on other things ether.

>>47805002
>at-will Ethereal Jaunt
>at-will Greater Teleport
>at-will Charm Monsters
>at-will Suggestions
Jesus. This is "spend a day to mind-rape and entire town" territory of campaign wrecking.

>>47805148
*your level 6 fireball is now a level 9 fireball.

>>47805148
Bloatmage Initiate as a human to get +4CL to fireball and +2CL to evocation and +1CL to everything.

What are the most effective gestalt combinations for an E6 campaign?

>>47805085
>good content

That's subjective, anon. Personally I'm GLAD that DSP is releasing some stuff that's interesting like this. Sure there's some bugs in their stuff but you don't have to use it.

It's apparently selling though.

>>47805148
for the record, if Path of War is on the table, use a trait to get access to a single Elemental Flux maneuver. If you do, you can pick up the Elemental Focus feat, which for your selected element allows you to bypass 1 point of resistance per character level and at level 10 makes immunity reduce the damage by 50%, rather than 100%.

>>47805085
>>47805203

Basically all that's good in this stuff is the feats, desu

I get what they're going for but the classes are basically homebrew-tier.

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>>47805041

https://www.sendspace.com/file/uanv1c

>>47805079

The hound archon receives at-will Greater Teleport at 6th-level, as a consolation prize for it being a much less competent monster class than the succubus. The succubus receives this at 8th-level, and the erinyes has it at 9th-level.

Maeldur et Kavurik's legacy lives strong.

>>47805148

Bear in mind that those at-will SLAs come only at 8th-level and do not scale further, so for one level (perhaps two), the succubus gets to be tier 2. Before that and past that, not so much.

It is worth noting that:
>In each case, the caster level equals the succubus’ class level + 4.

Those SLAs will be cast at caster level 12th as an 8th-level succubus, which helps with concentration checks and penetrating spell resistance.

>>47805180
>Bloatmage Initiate
...eww

Strictly a mechanical bonus, but I don't want to play that...

Why does pathfinder have all of this fetish shit built in?

>>47805226
It's still campaign breaking on a level that a 8th level wizard could only dream of.

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>>47805267

This is true with respect to 8th-level.

The succubus also receives at-will Detect Thoughts and a fly speed of 50 feet (average) at 6th-level. Even before 8th-level, a succubus has some solid treats at their disposal.

>>47805085
If the monster classes are anything like they were in 3.5, you can't multiclass until you've finished the monster class.

>>47805294
Yea ok...holy shit.

This is sacred-geometry levels of "pls don't pick this". Why was responsible for letting this get published?

>>47805314
They explicitly are not like that.

>>47804596
>kill a continent as a free action

....go on

>>47805319
You're kidding, right? It's good at social encounters and can mind control mooks but it's not really comparable to the ridiculousness of Sacred Geometry.

Detect Thoughts has a lot of restrictions, too.

>>47805203
You may like the content, it does not make it good or remotely balanced for play.

>>47805326
Ok, that's just silly, then. I guess that's one DSP supplement I won't be touching.

>>47805365
That's fine. It's worth my $2 and I'm happy DSP is branching out from their endless playtests to deliver some interesting stuff.

>>47805368
Not for everyone, obviously.

>>47805226
>https://www.sendspace.com/file/uanv1c
Thanks.
>>47805354
>can mind control mooks
More like 'everything not immune to mindfuck'.
There's also an option to trade SLAs for cleric spells on bard progression. While it removes at-will teleports and mindfuckery, it enables Battle Templar.

>>47804553
>>47804738
Yeah, the list is extensive- and use of it is limited, like everything else. You can't do everything all the time, and each effect has costs. A 1st level Zealot likely has 2 power points per day. Around 11 pp @ 4th, 25 pp @ 7th, 58 pp @ 12th, and 111 @ 17th.

Martyrdom is once per round. Which means if anyone is being hit multiple times, or multiple people are being hit (they probably are- if you're fighting one enemy the battle was already over) you're not blocking that much. It matters less and less up through 11th level, as combatants get more attacks and area damage becomes more common. At 12th level you can use it once per round per target, which is kinda nice but still doesn't make a massive dent in incoming damage when encounters at this point include stuff like secondary squads of enemies that harass parties with breath weapons and area effects like fireballs and unholy blights for chip damage. It's solid, but saying it makes the party near invulnerable to damage is blatantly false. Costs pp unless you want to take the damage yourself.

Echoes of Steel is at best okay, and also costs power points and doesn't work on your highest level maneuvers. Strikes and boosts can be situationally alright to share (especially if you've got buddies without initiating), but counters are rarely worth it since all the best ones rely on a skill you can't insure the target has maxed- they use their own skill modifiers.

Creation zealots are pretty good. Their ability to save and revive people is another outlet for spending power points, though, and keys off of their psionic focus. The action you use to recover that is either the one that conflicts with your Zeal and maneuver recovery (if you bought 13+ Wis and invested a feat), or it sucks up your whole turn- you're really unlikely to get more than one use out of Eternal Rebirth in a fight. Impossible Epiphany's second effect is awesome, though (but doesn't affect some key conditions, like Nauseated).

>>47805400
Yeah. I expect that the "cleric spells on bard progression" is the more balanced option.

>>47805354
Do you have legitimate brain issues?

>good at social encounters
You mean "a mind rapist who casts a un-savable charm/suggestion with no verbal or somatic components at will."

That's better than "good". A sorcerer or a investigator is "good" at rolling diplomacy. This monster can raise an army in a day.

Ultimate mind rapist vs. one or two levels of free metamagic? hmm...

>>47805387
>endless playtests
You don't even need to playtest this to realize how bullshit it is.

>>47805415
I could gestalt four different classes and not be able to reach zealot levels of power.

>>47805438
Do you even know what Charm and Suggestion do. That's not raising an army. Even if it was, then that'd be fine.

>>47804762
Your first hit die isn't maximized, instead you get your largest HD*1.5 (so a Fighter 1/Barbarian 1 has 18+d10+Con*2 HP regardless of which level they took first). Basically just so if you multiclass into a class with a larger hit die you don't get arbitrarily fucked, and to make 1st level PCs a bit less paper.

>>47805319
We've had this chat before, you know. When we decided to start this project, we had the choice between staying mostly authentic to playing the monster, or compromising the experience in favor of balance. We chose the former and warned customers and GMs about it up front, even discussing specific problem abilities and why they might create difficulties.

Do give us some credit, aye?

>>47805462
No credit to give. This is just lazy.

>>47805013
That doesn't justify it. It's literally their job to provide something useful- putting out something you can't actually use in a campaign because it's not even close to balanced is an insulting waste of time and money.

>>47805486
Be nice.

But yea, I agree.

>>47805506
Except whether you can use it in a campaign depends greatly. My DMs wouldn't have much issue with the succubus being used.

In fact I'm literally considering building one now.

>>47805514
If you really don't like DSPs stuff then don't use it there problem solved and your shitposting doesn't shit up the whole thread.

>>47805354
>>47805462
>>47805486
I think its more a mark of how fucking retarded the system is in its low expectation of PCs than anything that if you take a monster, cut it up and make it a PC of the same level its out and out better in every way.

Paizo doesn't need to fucking give PCs less shit per level, they need to give them more.
A CR X creature should be equal to a CR X PC, standardize across the board.

I for one appreciate the fact they assumed the players would want to be powerful and competent rather than going HURR BETTER MAKE IT A 14 LEVEL CLASS OPTION FOR A CR 7 CREATURE (+3 LA, +32 Racial HD Son)

>>47805524
>In fact I'm literally considering building one now.
Same here.
>>47805462
Would it upset, uh, 'balance', if succubutts were to get actual bard spells on bard progression, or psywar manifesting, or guru weilweaving?

>>47805583
>upsetting balance

Probably not. Would be more balanced than the SLAs and be a neat gish class.

>>47805462
Gareth, question. In the updated PoW:E pdf, aside of Harbinger's Dark Focus bonuses going untyped/class skill fixes/wording fixes; are there any major changes I should have to look at? Haven't had the time to compare both documents fully yet and I got a session tomorrow.

>>47805543
Eh, that's not /entirely/ the fault of the system. Some abilities and weaknesses are more suitable for an NPC role than a PC one. Incorporeality can be a headache on a PC, but suits an enemy fine to create a difficult encounter. Conversely, we made the new vampire template in Lords of the Night because the original had vague and lethal weaknesses that made using it for players a headache.

>>47805462
Ok, a little unbalanced is ok, but this shit is really bad, man. It don't have any resemblance of balance on it.

>>47805620
More balanced than the zealot.

>>47805541
But I do like DSP stuff. Once my current group has a better grasp of the rules I was going to introduce it.

But I have no idea how I could run a campaign with this in it. The second they arrive at a town the succubus ether has a cult of people willing to die for them or they get lynched by a high level paladin who detects what is going on early.

>shitposting
I am being incredibly civil and reasonable.

>>47805543
>Paizo doesn't need to fucking give PCs less shit per level, they need to give them more.
>A CR X creature should be equal to a CR X PC, standardize across the board.
Monsters tend to be one trick ponys with obvious and un-fixable weaknesses.

Adventures tend to be much more versatile and tend to have fewer weaknesses.

What could make for a great monster to fight can make for a shitty character to play. You should not build them the same way or compare them in the same role.

>>47805632
I don't use the Initiator Classes of the DSP, only the Feats and Disciplines.... AND I didn't read the class.

>>47805524
You're going to need to sandbag and NOT just spend the whole time spamming charms at absurdly inflated DCs and having squads of captured enemies do everything for your party, or your GM is going to swiftly change their mind.

>>47805583
The casting option was put in to help with the SLA thing for groups where those would be an issue. I don't believe your new proposals would be troublesome but I'm firing from the hip so take it with a grain of salt.

>>47805599
Massive AFB right now, my apologies.

>>47805645
>But I have no idea how I could run a campaign with this in it. The second they arrive at a town the succubus ether has a cult of people willing to die for them

...that's not how Charm Person works. It makes people Friendly, not Fanatical.

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>>47805583

>succubutts were to get actual bard spells on bard progression

A succubus who chooses bardic spellcasting does, in fact, have a measure of bard-like spell level discounts:

>2nd—detect thoughts, suggestion, tongues, vampiric touch
>3rd—charm monster
>4th—dominate person
>6th—ethereal jaunt, greater teleport

It is not quite the same as the full breadth of the bard spell list, however.

The hound archon's SLAs, for comparison, are so bad (until 6th-level) that any hound archon will want to use the bard-cleric spellcasting option before then.

What these monster classes truly need is less back-loaded progressions. The hound archon and the succubus have far, far too much riding on their final, capstone levels, and such abilities could stand to be spread out across their careers.

>>47805650
Nah, it'd just mean the DM adapts his tactics. Why would my squads of captured enemies do much of anything when a teleporting squad of black ops wizards can appear and blast them to pieces before fleeing?

I'll have to be smarter about mind controlling than you guys seem to be implying is the ideal. The hell kind of games do you play in that (a) armies of mooks do anything and (b) you can make one with magic and not have the setting fighting back?

>>47805645
Undetectable Alignment is a 1st level spell for bards, and it costs 50 gp to get a potion that lasts for 24 hours. Detect Evil is significantly less useful than it's hyped up to be, especially in a post Greater Magic Aura world.

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>>47802754
Anyone remember the build where a bard dealt tons of damage with Weird Words?

>>47805664
If a cha of 40+ and at-will charm person can't turn people to fanatics, then nothing can and fanatics don't exist.

>>47805682
>a teleporting squad of black ops wizards can appear and blast them to pieces before fleeing?
If you want to say "rocks falls and everyone dies" then just say it. Don't make some elaborate ruse to try and hide it.

>>47805699
Diplomacy CANNOT turn people into fanatics. The highest thing is Helpful.

Charm actually sets them to Friendly.

The only thing that works for it is dominate, and DM fiat.

If you're spending the in-game time to raise an army of fanatics the hard way, then I don't see why you shouldn't be allowed to.

>>47805682
Ah yes, an arms race between player and GM because they can't talk to each other like fucking adults. That will fix everything.

They're not armies of mooks. They're groups of enemies from encounters that, massed together, are roughly the same power as your entire party or greater.

>>47805664
It is then a DC 10+Cha Diplomacy check to make them Helpful. At which point diplomacy checks to get them to do virtually anything are fairly trivial, and if there's something they'd never do you can browbeat them with your Charisma score. Fuck, with a 40 you can take 10 and the majority of opponents can't actually beat your check to refuse your order.

>>47805699

>If a cha of 40+ and at-will charm person can't turn people to fanatics, then nothing can and fanatics don't exist.

So your basis on the charm person being broken is 'Something outside the rules'. I mean, that doesn't seem to be anything that 'A bard' couldn't do. Except the bard would have versatility in his spell list.

>>47805730
>Charm actually sets them to Friendly.
Nothing stops you from Diplomacying them up to Helpful. This is the FrankTrollman method.

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>>47804885
>>47804813
>>47805002
You know, all this talk of at-will makes me wonder, at what levels are at-will charm person/monster abilities "reasonable"? What about the other at-will abilities? What about other enchantment spells as at-will SLAs? I know witch hexes produce similar effects to having at-will SLAs, but most of those are "you only get one try per target per 24 hours, unless you take this particular feat". The witch charm hex looks really shitty compared to the actual spell.

This is important because of reasons.

>>47805756
I have a difficult time believing that you are arguing in good faith.

>>47805739
>and if there's something they'd never do you can browbeat them with your Charisma score.

That's only 'Wouldn't ordinarily' not 'would never'. Something that someone would NEVER do would fall under Harmful most likely. Things don't need to do HP damage to be harmful. A businessman giving you money he needs to keep his business running would be harmful to him.

>>47805730
Giving dangerous aid is a DC20 for a friendly creature. The succubi has a +15 from charisma alone if she didn't put ranks in it.

>>47805773

Good for you. It doesn't stop it being something that you don't really have rules backing up.

>>47805768
They can be fine as long as the DC is in-line and you can't just sit there fishing for a failed save forever. Alternatively you can put a hard limit on how many or how strong the things you charm/control are.

It's not an insoluble problem, but you need to put some actual effort into it.

>>47805790
Please read:
>>47805779
>>47805739

>>47805803

See >>47805778

Harmful actions automatically are dismissed.

>>47805778
>A charmed character never obeys a command that is obviously suicidal or grievously harmful to him.
You're adding to how Charm and Compulsion actually works, anon. "That won't work because the GM will fiat that it doesn't work that way!" doesn't fix the issue, it just means there are going to be more sore feelings and the GM has to do more work to untangle the ensuing clusterfuck.

>>47805773

So anyone who disagrees with you is not arguing in good faith?

>>47805817
No they aren't. "Serious Peril" are immediately dismissed. "Dangerous Aid" simply adds ten to the DC.

It depends on when Danger becomes Serious Peril.

>>47805836

The spell says 'Obviously harmful' not grievously harmful.

>>47805836
>grievously harmful

Not just harmful, but grievously harmful. It's a degree greater than just harmful.

>>47805836
Text of the spell:
>An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing.

Combat constitutes "very dangerous".

>>47805897
Combat also constitutes obviously harmful. Dangerous could be helping people hide from people tracking them.

>>47805864

Except the spell doesn't say grievously. It says obviously harmful.

>>47805863
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities#TOC-Charm-and-Compulsion
It's a function call for the rules on all charms. If you're going to willfully misinterpret "obviously harmful" as "harmful in any way to anyone" instead of how charm effects are actually resolved, I can't help you.

So at best this succubus monster class starts a hour-long-argument with your DM, and at worst just breaks the game.

Great.

>>47805938

No, it's rules text for the spell. Charm and Compulsion is on top of that.

Charm Person/Monster is pretty damn limited as far as mind control is concerned.

>>47805913
See >>47805938

>>47805946
Not really. At best it's not an issue (charm is nowhere near as strong as you people are making it out to be), at second-best you use the spellcasting option that they put in FOR EXACTLY THIS REASON, and at worst it starts an argument about Diplomacy with your DM.

>>47805897
Obviously Harmful is like "Set off this trap so I don't have to", not combat. It means obvious immediate harm.

>>47805946

No, at best it 'Makes a good social character because the players and GM understand the limitations of charm'

>>47805969
>>47805990
>hey guys 40 CHA and charm person/suggestion/ethereal jaunt at will are not problematic at level 8
Really? REALLY?

>>47805946
As a massive asshole that loves crushing fun and 3rd party, I shall whip my GM with my penis until he lets me use this class just for you.

Gestalted with Paladin.

>>47805990
40 Charisma is not the kind of charisma you see on a normal individual. It's literally deific level force of personality. A level 8 Succubi can easily have +35 to diplomacy.

So I don't get it, casters can cast charm person as well, they get it earlier and, while they might not have it at will, doesn't stop them from having a lot of uses by the time the succubutt gets it. Why is this one suddenly awful? It's not like taking a 10 to move them to friendly is difficult even at level 1.

>>47806004
They're really strong and should be talked about with your DM.

They have the variant spellcasting option RIGHT THERE for people who aren't okay with the SLAs.

>>47805990
"Limitations" is not a synonym for "houserules restricting the power of". Charm effects are probably too good for how early they enter the game, but making up your own restrictions doesn't actually change what's in the book.

If you're arguing authorial intent instead, please note that antagonists in published adventures use their charm abilities to make things fight the PCs all the time and then promptly go fuck yourself.

>be level 8 succubi
>take 2 levels in paladin
>+15 to all saves at level 10

I don't even know man.

>>47805983

Obviously harmful is a whole lot of stuff.

It's everything from 'Let me into this castle directly against the orders of your superior' (As it will get you court martialed/hanged.) to 'give me money that you can't easily spare'

>>47806020
Charm monster, at-will means you can spam until someone fails, and +7 to the DC.

>>47806047
How are they not noticing you're doing it? Paizo ruled that even spells without components are visible.

They also know when they succeeded at a save.

>>47806042
>Give dangerous aid
>Give aid that could result in punishment

>>47806024
The spell casting option is worse. A level 8 bard with 40 charisma is down right retarded. He is throwing around DC30s at a level where nothing can make that save.

>>47806024
>They're really strong and should be talked about with your DM.
A wizard is really strong and should be talked about with your DM.
Sacred geometry is really strong and should be talked about with your DM.

This is leagues above that. as >>47806017 said, this is god-like levels of persuasion.

At level 8.

This should not be talked about with your DM.

This should not exist.

>>47806065
>How are they not noticing you're doing it? Paizo ruled that even spells without components are visible.
>They also know when they succeeded at a save.
It doesn't' matter because you have six friends between them and you, and they only pass the save if they roll a 20.

>>47806098
>Bah, everyone needs to play at the same power level. There's absolutely no reason for more/less powerful classes or options to be created and given warning that they're more/less powerful!

>>47806098

>Leagues above a sacred geometry wizard.

...you don't understand the game, do you?

Also: On the topic of charisma. Diplomacy has ALWAYS been stupid as fuck. It's downright trivial to get it high enough to just turn hostile people friendly even for a non-succubus. It's not like this added a new problem.

>>47806065
Well, either:
1) Your group, like most, doesn't give a fuck about Paizo's FAQ since it's mostly nonsense and breaks more than it fixes.
or
2) Your group uses the FAQ. Which doesn't mean you have to care if your target notices they're being fucked with, because being charmed fixes that and you've got plenty of backup.

>>47806120
Ok, I actually can't take you seriously now. This goes directly against half of /pfg/'s constant arguing. You can't not see that.

>>47806120
There is absolutely no reason for that. Because this is a level based system and two people with the same level are supposed to be just as powerful as each other. What the fuck is wrong with you?

>>47806139
I suspect strong trolling, or someone who works for DSP.

>>47806143
That has never been the case, and the advice given for character creation is always to build to the power of other characters. Giving more and less powerful options gives options for games of differing play styles. As long as they're specifically stated to be more/less powerful and not misleadingly stated to be the same power level then it's fine.

>>47806120
We should play a game together. I'll be a level 10 wizard and you can be a level 1 commoner. You can be my maid. It will be a blast.

>Be succubi
>use casting option
>be level 10 Succubi 8/Paladin 2
>have +15 to all saves, a host of resistances, 40 charisma with spells that scale off of charisma
>nothing can make the saves
>spell resistance 20, bunch of energy resistance

Really, it's absolutely ridiculously powerful. Think of a level 8 wizard with 40int.

>>47806176
>players have to be careful to not break the game because the rules are bad and power levels are inconsistent

>this means that it's fine that we add more broken shit.

>>47806186
Sure, if you want to ignore the point that higher powered games should have all characters be higher powered, and lower powered games have all characters be lower powered.

>>47806172
Not the anon you're posting about but I sincerely believe that a general boost in power level across the board is acceptable and shit like monsters should be the standard comparison for about-where-you-should-be-in-your-speciality-if-you-have-one

>>47806176
"Being more powerful" is called "being a higher level". You play a game with a higher starting level and/or ending level if that's what you want.

>>47806220
Or it's also playing more powerful classes. A warder is better than fighter is better than a warrior. Wizard, alchemist, adept.

>>47806205
Isn't that what you're doing?

>>47806241
No

>dsp person posts
>dsp person stops posting
>someone tries to defend stupid dsp stuff beyond what any chromosome thief would do

hmmmmm

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>>47806143
Brain cancer induced by the system.

>>47806191
Actually going further a succubi 8/paladin 2 has the following:
>+2 Str
>+6 Dex
>+10 Con
>+2 Int
>+4 Wis
+18 Charisma
>Bard spell casting off the Cleric List with extra spells
>Natural Armor +4
>Spell Resistance 20
>+15 all saving throws
>immunity fire/electricity
>acid/cold resistance 10
>+6 perception
>+8 bluff
>flight
>telepathy
>DR 10/Cold iron
>Alter Self

I can't see how anyone thinks this is in line with anything's power. This blows a wizard out of the water.

>>47806300
The only people defending this are DSP people who aren't using their trips.

>>47806329
When did I get hired by DSP and when should I expect my first paycheck?

>>47806329
Didn't DSP outright say it's unbalanced, intentionally?

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>>47806191

The spellcasting option for the succubus is only really a good choice at the lower levels (when a succubus's SLAs will be shabby) *and* at the high levels (when a lack of scaling on SLAs will start to be noticeable).

During the middle levels, a succubus is much better off taking the SLAs.

>>47806300

Due to the way level-appropriate abilities work, a succubus will steadily grow worse as they move up from 8th-level.

At exactly 8th-level though, yes, it is ridiculously strong.

>>47806369
They claimed "intentional", but really it's just lazy.

>>47806300
Stats for my succubi:
Str: 10
Dex: 20
Con: 26
Int: 12
Wis: 14
Cha: 40

>tfw +30 Fort Save
>tfw +28 Ref Save
>tfw +28 Will Save

>>47806387
You say those like they're mutually exclusive.

>>47806369
It's called being asshats. They're more concerned with releasing content than releasing balanced content. Calling it intentional is a bad way to cover their ass.

>>47806404
It's a lose lose situation, either they release the monsters more powerful and give a fair warning that they're more powerful, or they release them in a nerfed state and y'all would've gotten angry that they're not true *insert monster* and are way too weak like in savage species

>>47806428
Because one step down from "game breakingly powerful" is "useless shit"

>>47806377
>At exactly 8th-level though, yes, it is ridiculously strong.
If you did not notice the spell casting option mentions 4th-6th level spells, which a succubi could not normally get. HOWEVER if they take a PrC that increase spellcasting then they get it just fine. Their spellcasting continues using the cleric list and grabbing those extra spells.

A Succubi 8/Paladin 2/Divine Scion 10 would be strong to the point of being comical. At level 20 it would be very easy to get 50-60 Cha.

>>47806387
>>47806404

How I'm imagining this:

>We've got a guy writing monster classes for us
>We'll be selling these PDFs for $2 each for multiple classes
>It's not a high-priority product or playtest
>There's a market for it, even if it's not the normal standard of things we do
>If it sells, it'll continue. If not, we'll probably have to adjust it.

Meh.

I can see what they're doing with it. My group is excited to use them, and overall, as >>47806428 said, it's a lose-lose situation for them.

I'd rather we have cool, powerful options that are nonetheless not applicable to most games than shitty ones that aren't worth the bits they're printed on.

I don't really see it as "asshats" so much as "a company can produce multiple things for multiple niches. Don't just blindly buy their products like some sort of sheep. Monster Classes is not targeted at you, it's targeted at me."

>>47806428
No, I want it actually fucking play tested and made balance for any fucking kind of play. Fuck off.

>>47806472
>play tested
nigga this wasn't even read by someone who has played pathfinder before.

>>47806457

Mind you, 6th level on cleric spells is not that fantastic in comparison with '9th level on cleric spells'.

The real benefit of Bard spellcasting is getting a lot of spells at different levels to wizard/sorcerer.

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>>47806200
Alright.

What do you think'd be balanced, as a way for players to play a Succubus?
Or any other monster for that matter.

No need for detail mind you, be as general as you like.

>>47806472
Yes, let's have them do an endless playtest for things that will NEVER BE BALANCED, because they won't represent the monsters if they do, for a bunch of PDFs they sell for $2 and no one in this thread has actually bought anyway.

>>47806465
It's full of typos, misspellings, bad copy-pasted abilities. It's a bad quality product of an unbalanced class. How can you defend it?

>>47806485
The fact that they've got the shitty-spells option shows that it was.

They should have made the SLAs the variant and that the base.

>>47806503
Because I understand what they're doing and still feel I got my money's worth.

>>47806550
>>47806503
Though the typos are retarded. They need to get on their A-game with that if they're gonna publish unbalanced classes.

>>47806550
Then you are literally retarded.

>>47806493
Fuck that image so much

>>47806577
>Everyone who disagrees with me and holds a different opinion is dumb

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>>47806457

You are still predominantly casting off the cleric list with bard progression. Compared to an actual cleric, that is not particularly strong.

A succubus can make the most of this by spamming save-or-lose spells, but until the high levels, that is better accomplished through the succubus SLAs rather than the spellcasting option.

>>47806503

The PDF is noticeably unpolished; I have noted at least one error in the succubus's class table and an inexplicable mention of "astral deva."

>>47806550
>bad quality product
>bad editing
>bad lay out
>poorly written unbalanced classes
>money's worth

I have never wanted to use the term DSProne before, but you make me want to.

>>47806613
>The PDF is noticeably unpolished; I have noted at least one error in the succubus's class table and an inexplicable mention of "astral deva."
There is a hanging +2 to no ability score. I guessed it was Constitution.

>>47806404
Yeah. I'm usually a fan of DSP but this is just nonsense.

>>47806503
Have you seen DSP's work? Path of War had so many typos it's not even funny. PoW E was slightly better and they fixed it but jfc.

Ultimate Psionics has a bunch of typos and shitty abilities, and it's just copy/pasted from 3.5's stuff. They've got a bunch of NONFUNCTIONAL abilities and broken ones, like no-save daze multiple times per round powers, and stuff that has no listed duration.

Mythic Psionics is literally one of the worst products I've ever seen. Nothing in it works.

Akashic Mysteries is shit design. They should have fired Ssalarn a while back.

Their playtests are alright and the layout for Steelforge and PoW E is much better than their previous stuff, but shit, guys. Stop putting DSP on a pedestal and expecting perfection. They're just another crappy game design company writing for a shitty game that we nonetheless play for no good reason.

>>47806619
And yet I'm building a succubus for a game and I'm gonna have fun with it. I paid the cost of a fucking candy bar for it. So yeah, I'm gonna call it worth.

>>47806485
Oh man you should see the ghost. It was written by someone who didn't even know Incorporeal changed in Pathfinder.

>Making new character
>Want to magical realm a little
>Afraid everyone will realize it's magical realm
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

>>47806350
I know, right? Given they pay actual content creators 2.5c per word, I can't imagine what the 'shills' must be making.

>>47806644
>Stop putting DSP on a pedestal and expecting perfection.
Fucking hell I expect basic editing abilities you tard. A cursory look over would catch these.

I am not putting DSP on a pedestal. I am saying they are pretty fucking shit. I dislike most of their products for various reasons. I have spoken out against /pfg/'s obsession with them.

They're nearly as bad as Paizo.

>>47806682
>They're nearly as bad as Paizo.
Now that's just being fuckin' contrarian.

>>47806682
>nearly

No, they're just as bad. And yet plenty of us (myself included) give both companies our money.

>>47806706
What are you talking about? They are. The only reason people think otherwise is being their Devs are moderately less retarded.

>>47806658
How so?

>>47806717
By your standards, every 3pp is dogshit.

>>47806725
Well they kinda are.

>>47806644
>Akashic Mysteries is shit design. They should have fired Ssalarn a while back.

Absolutely this.

How does it feel to know Ssalarn is still in charge of Tzocatl and Arcforge?

>>47806725
Yes. They are. Paizo is dog shit, DSP is dog shit, Kobold Press is dog shit, Radiance House is dog Shit, Rite Publishing is Dog Shit.

Occasionally they produce something I like, but for the most part I consider the lot of them incapable of good game design.

>>47806753
It hurts my soul.

I'm also a bit appalled by the monster classes stuff, especially since Forrest is normally pretty decent at this shit (like in the Occult stuff).

What HAPPENED there? Why are the monster classes so bad?

>>47806721
Talks about miss chance when making attacks against incorporeal creatures.

>>47806753
It boils my blood. But at least Arcforge isn't being published by DSP anymore.

>>47806756
In that case, what is good game design oh wise sage of game design?

I've had a shitload of fun with a shitload of products over the years, 1st, 2nd (3rd party used by Paizo) and 3rd party.
Once all is said and done, 3.5 as a whole is a glorious trainwreck, so really? Compared to some of the shit out there anything is balanced.

When nothing is balanced, why fucking worry about balance?

>>47806765
Because as mentioned, monster abilities *aren't designed* to be used by PCs.

Capturing the iconic design of any given monster is going to be a pain in the ass without making it overpowered, because monsters don't have to face the same challenges or address the same needs as PCs.

It was a stupid project from the start.

>>47806776
>miss chance

Okay THAT I need to comment on, because I've talked to Forrest in irc about that, and I was told it was intentional since they wanted to give the ghost a better defense than small damage resistance.

They printed the incorporeal subtype in the damn PDF after all, and gave a feat for the ghosts to later get the actual incorporeal subtype, on top of the scaling miss chance.

The monster classes are pretty shit but I did like that design choice.

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>>47806765
Not much basically, they do what they were set out to do.
Let you play a monster at a reasonable-ish level for that monster. It's shaped like itself.

For some reason people are taking deep offense to the idea that PCs can be as powerful as monsters.
And yes a Succubus Paladin/Antipaladin would be Dank As Shit as a PC and overpowered as fuck.
Know what else is overpowered as fuck?
A Succubus Paladin/Antipaladin NPC, because they get exactly the same shit, you fucking shit flinging monkey.

>>47806813

Wonder what the DSP people other than the writer (Jeff Swank? has he posted here?) think of it. Are they proud of this work? Was this something that the bosses decided to put out and just dragged them into? Is that why it's so shit? Do they even CARE?

I'm honestly curious about the process that led this abortion of a product line.

And if it's doing well, which would prove the PF community and DSP fanbase are retarded.

>>47806793
>In that case, what is good game design oh wise sage of game design?
Not pathfinder.

Enjoying something and something being a quality product are not the same things. Pathfinder as a system is not balanced. The only reason I play it is because it's the only thing I can get people to play.

3.5 was not a "glorious trainwreck" it was a shit show.

I am worried about balance because when you actually play you need different players to actually be able to contribute meaningfully to a situation and no single character to have too much narrative potential. These are not things you can easily get in pathfinder because pathfinder is a shit show just like 3.5 was.

>>47806813
It could have been mostly fine if they didn't fetishize the ability scores so much. Nobody fucking cares that you get similar ability scores to the monster while naked, being able to do the cool stuff the monster can do is what actually matters, and is way less likely to suddenly break things like save DCs when combined with point buy and PC equipment.

They should have just had more interesting abilities, as is they're big piles of ability score bonuses and one or two iconic abilities after you've invested a half dozen levels.

>>47806851
NPCs and PCs should not be built with the same expectations.

>>47806860
They're definitely doing well. Part of that is that they're cheap - two bucks is pretty much nothing.

Having talked to DSP quite a bit, they're frustrated with the project, but they are trying their hardest. But it's a product with a too-short development cycle for proper playtesting, based on a 3.5 concept that was pretty shitty to begin with, so it has a lot of flaws.

>>47806876
That's probably fair. Honestly, my favorite Monster Class is Gelatinous Cube.

>>47806887
That might be your opinion, but it's not how the game's math is actually set up. A 5th level PC and a CR 5 monster are supposed to be basically interchangeable with each other, and barring a matchup that favors one over the other, have roughly a 50-50 chance of winning that fight.

>>47806860
It started with Jeff just posting his conversion on the Paizo boards, and DSP saw dollar signs in the popular post.

IIRC the DSP guys said (after the first pdf was released) that these monster classes "aren't supposed to be balanced" which is a crock of shit, but people are more than willing to buy it because it has DSP's name on it.

>>47806905
Hell yeah. I haven't liked any of the other monster classes, but the cube is actually fun. Probably because the class is so short you can actually start doing Cube Stuff really quickly.

>>47806926
The game's math is broken. How do you not understand that? A level 10 Succubi 8/Paladin 2 could easily kill a CR 15 creature, perhaps more.

>>47806931
Well that's just fucking retarded. Honestly I bet that the DSP team is just as embarrassed as we are pissed about it.

As they should be. The stuff's a mess. The only decent things in it are the feats.

>>47806862
One mans shitshow is anothers glorious trainwreck.

I personally enjoy 3.Finder because it has a shitload of options and as long as I use a sliver of common sense while GMing, I can keep things generally in line while supplying my players with new, interesting options off the cuff and a shitload of wondrous new things they've never encountered before.
Everyone can contribute because I make sure if they're lagging behind they get a little knock up and I actually talk to my players like peeples so they don't go HURP GONNA BRING A RAW WIZARD TO THE GROUP WITH 3 COMMONERS AND AN EXPERT.

What you're saying is 'I want a system that lets me not have to think as a GM', which is fair enough, sometimes you don't have time for dancing on the knife edge for an entire session.
But saying something is a shit show because everyone isn't bland, same-ability cut outs doesn't make it bad.

>>47806887
Well guess what? They're meant to and they fucking should be built with the same expectation.
A level Y PC should be as capable as a CR Y monster, on a general rule of thumb (Barring optimal exceptions like Antipaladin Succubus or, I don't know, a Eoxian Wizard (dat +4 Int Son) or any of the other Combos that inevitably come up bullshit when you have so much content.)

>>47806931
Being fair here, the Pathfinder brand is the only reason people buy Paizo's shit either, so there ya go.

>>47806954
Assuming you're right for the moment, I frankly don't care that an obscure 3rd party class violates a design goal of the base game.

What's more shitty is that there are classes in the core rulebook that dramatically under-perform and just straight up lose easy fights that are supposed to be in their wheelhouse.

>>47806905
>They're definitely doing well. Part of that is that they're cheap - two bucks is pretty much nothing.
Short, cheap PDFs are probably the best way for a 3PP to make money these days. If you took a bunch of these things and put them into a $40 book you'd damn well expect people to complain about shit balance and shit content, and they'd definitely be demanding for their money back, but for $1-2 people don't consider it worth the hassle to get a return on their pocket change.

Kobold Press' Trickster is the fucking posterboy for this new, shitty trend. A previously great 3PP puts out a 6 page flier that's all either recycled from 3.5 or overpowered garbage and what happens? Idiots lap it up and throw 5-star reviews. People who are disappointed just move one. Hell KP even had Paizo delete a bunch of unflattering reviews that actually called them out on their shit because it might "hurt their sales".

>>47806984
>A level Y PC should be as capable as a CR Y monster, on a general rule of thumb (Barring optimal exceptions like Antipaladin Succubus or, I don't know, a Eoxian Wizard (dat +4 Int Son) or any of the other Combos that inevitably come up bullshit when you have so much content.)
Show me the fucking rule, shitface.