/cofd/&/wodg/&/mtag/ Chronicles of Darkness & World

>>47641808
Very happy that none of my players are planning to play an Acanthus.

Subnet/RP Portal is dead

To all of the lovers of White Wolf Games,

>It is with sadness but understanding that we must remove this site from the Internet, having received a command to do so by one of the lawyers of Paradox Entertainment. Per their terms of service, not even a single word concerning their game systems may be placed upon the Internet without their express consent. It does not matter if this is a simple list of Merits and Flaws with absolutely no definitions and page numbers referencing where they are found, or if it is a set of instructions on a system for their games -- it must be removed if it is associated to White Wolf Publishing. So to all of you I wish you a fond farewell. I shall leave the links above, as I still love their games even if they do not love us trying to help others to understand their games' creation rules. I shall continue to support their projects, and I hope that you do as well.

>To everyone that has ever come for knowledge, to everyone that has ever helped to explain that knowledge better, to every contributer (and there have been hundreds), and to everyone that has given me thanks for the help I have provided over the years... Thank you, and keep on gaming!

Anybody got an offline version?

>>47641833
Don't you want to play an Acanthus™, strongest and bestest of all mages, way better than those despicable Obrimos (euuuuurrrrggggh) apes?

Was DaveB's secret plan to have everyone use creative thaumaturgy (instead of just premade spells) to have the premade spell section play favorites with Arcana, making people turn to creative thaumaturgy to make Prime better?

>>47641961
Yes, unfortunately, this went about as well as drawing an off-model character and posting it on tumblr.

>>47641982
>drawing an off-model character and posting it on tumblr
Do people do this on purpose?

>>47641808
Who should run the (Semi-legal) Prostitution Trade in the City: Nosferatu, Ventrue or Toreador?

>>47641835
some of it is on archive.org, sadly it's missing newer stuff. Google-cache has more, but dunno how to scrape it.

>>47642073
Malkavian, Pimp Named Slickback

>>47642128
Yeah, no can do, unfortunately, it has to be one of the three

>>47642180
Then make a Ventrue with Megalomania.

>>47642073
If it was Requiem, I'd say Nosferatu. People pay up and don't give the girls any trouble because the John is creepy and the girls are hot (thanks to Familiar Stranger). Since this is Masquerade, I'm also going to say Nosferatu, but for different reasons.

>>47642128
My one Masquerade character concept was a prostipimp madame who played up the crazy intentionally and was overly protective of "the panhandlers and prostitutes of Hope Street". The idea was to play them as a mix of the "I'm just a clown, I don't plan, ignore all the planning I clearly did" Joker from Dark Knight and the climby gorilla weirdo Joker from The Batman. Their actual Derangement was Sanguinary Animism, and they liked having the girls' voices in their heads when they were out on patrol.

Declaring myself baron of a little stretch of street was a good way to get involved through the typical "the Prince makes you do things" method, but also kind of tied me to a single location, which is never a good idea for a PC.

>>47642180
>>47642187
>>47642199
Nosferatu - "I like broken things, give them a new meaning." Finds homeless people to use in his prostitution racket and gives them purpose.
Toreador - "The body is a beauty and sex is an art." A prostitution racket for the rich snobs, who like going to modern art museums.
Ventrue - "These things belong to me. I can break them. I can make them scream." A megalomaniac neo-slave owner.

>>47641808
>http://fourmoonspress.com/Mage/ExpandedFateFourSpells.pdf

> Choose Force, Life, Matter, or Mind. For the Duration of the spell, the Storyteller may create a twist of fate that emulates the effects of one Compelling spell of the chosen Arcanum. The effect is still treated as a Fate spell (not a spell
of the chosen Arcanum), although it can be manipulated by the appropriate Arcanum as an any natural manifestation within the Arcanum
’s purview.

Is that a literal "poach effects from other Arcana" spell? For shame, Onyx, for shame.

8 mages with 5 dots in one arcana and 0 in others play tg.
One prime mage is a dm.
They all apposing each other ( except dm ofc).
They allowed to use magick but not obvious one.
Who would win?

>>47642248
Only Compelling, and he's not acting in an official capacity. It's not even BAD, it's just the epitome of both "Fate is a grab bag who gives a fuck" and all the complaining Touhou had about badly written rules, albeit this time it's a badly written rule that just tells the Storyteller to do whatever.

Like, is it *MIMICKING* the other Arcana but still a "natural manifestation"? If I cast that on someone and the ST chooses Ground Eater, do they literally start making strides as Space itself shrinks around them with every step, or do they still keep the same Speed, but their effective speed has Potency added to it because they're going through a shortcut? If the ST decides to use Remote Control, is this a Supernal effect, or is the TV just spazzing out? If they choose Cleanse Body, is that literally Fate altering the body, or just their immune system gets better? If I use it and the Storyteller chooses Influence Electricity, is a random spark in the car hotwiring it, or is that Fate creating a spark?

It's simultaneously a great idea but also dumb. I mean, Fate is not the Arcanum I think of when I think of "the same effect as a different Arcanum's lower levels". Especially since it being chosen by the Storytelling means more work for the Storyteller and also that it's random and nonsensical. There are so many things to dislike about that spell that any neatness is overrun.

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>>47642248
>>47642339

It is worth nothing that the unofficial "fixes" for Fate 4 spells directly allow a mage to with Fate 4 replicate Dispel Magic with +1 Reach.

How exactly does this work? Do the strands of destiny just rip apart a spell for no reason?

Let us not even get into the fact that the "designer intent" for Reading the Outmost Eddies and Shifting the Odds constantly give a mage and their cabal exceptional successes on three successes and whatever Social Merits they could need at any given moment, no spell control slots needed.

>>47642391
>Do the strands of destiny just rip apart a spell for no reason?
Yes. Honestly, that isn't the part that bothers me. Literally everything else is the part that bothers me. So somehow we agree and yet still disagree.

Although I think frankly the designer intent explanation is more confusing than what we already have.

Messing with Time.
https://youtu.be/mSPhclmRzck

>>47641808
So, the Pastebin's only got stuff for 1e, by the looks of things. Does anyone have links for poorfags to get 2e stuff from? In particular, Demon, its supplements, and Werewolf 2e.

>>47642391
>It is worth nothing that the unofficial "fixes" for Fate 4 spells directly allow a mage to with Fate 4 replicate Dispel Magic with +1 Reach.

>How exactly does this work? Do the strands of destiny just rip apart a spell for no reason?

Presumably, lucky things happen that happen to cancel out the effect of the spell. So, for instance, if a guy with Forces 4 is using a buildings electrical grid to throw fireballs at his enemies using Transform Energy, there's a mysterious power outage. If a Death mage is sending a ghost after somebody, all of the ghost's Anchors suffer mysterious accidents that leave them either dead or destroyed, causing the ghost to fall screaming into the Underworld. Stuff like that.

How exactly would it work if a Demon wanted to use Show of Power only to emulate other creature's powers, such as a mage's casting? I'm guessing I can cast any particular spell I've observed or been targeted by, with the stipulation that I'd have to spend a Reach for instant casting, but if I need Reach for instant casting how do I know what other Reaches I get from casting?

>>47642794
But that doesn't make sense, because the magic's still there even if whatever it was affecting goes away.

>>47642911
As a GM, I'd say you'd have to exactly mimic all the aspects of the spell you were targeted with, including all of the Reaches and Spell Factors they were using.

>>47642992
Yeah, that is the conclusion I eventually came to as well. I think I'll just need to keep a list of the stuff the rest of my group has cast.

>>47642753
http://pastebin.com/7sSgGVPH

>>47642794
>>47642939
You can't Dispell a ghost...
And it's worth noting that if we assume the guy is reasonable (I know, big assumption) then it's not literally the Arcanum effect, just coincidences. So it's not Dispel, it's wacky occurrences that have the same outcome. It's also worth noting that these are chosen by the Storyteller, so there's no real guarantee that you directly use Dispel. Although let's be honest if you cast it on some active magic there's basically only one thing it could be. Honestly, if it was cleared up to be less vague and dumb and all the things I've been saying aren't actually problems but here it actually is because he's supposed to be FIXING those things, the spell would be "neato".

So with Dispel, basically the spell would fall apart.

>>47642911
You just monkey see, monkey do. You're not casting the spell, you're just glitching the Matrix so that the same thing happens.

>>47643109
Yeah, that's the pastebin in the OP. It's only got 1e stuff in the mega bin, and the individual links are only to the Demon Storyteller Guide, Mage 2e, and Beast. No Vampire, Werewolf, Demon, or Flowers of Hell.

>>47643170
This is what I've got on this computer
>Vampire
https://www.sendspace.com/file/ke6k6b
>Werewolf
https://www.sendspace.com/file/sg5rw0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brotherhood_of_Dada
Would they be a Cabal of Scelesti?

yeeeeeeeah. So, having woken up to wonder what everyone's talking about. This is why I tell freelancers to not put house rules up, even *with* ' this not official' written on them.

They're not going into the game.

>>47643346
Do you still hate Obrimos though?

>>47643346
Yo Dave. When I asked you a couple months ago, you said that there would be some sort of support for High Ritual-ish actions to supercede 1e's ritual casting, so that mages can make preparation pay off.

What is it? I can't seem to find it in the book.

>>47641835

That has bad tidings for the WoD canon index, which I see moved off Wikidot. I wonder if we're going to see White Wolf AB set down some fan material rules as well.

>>47643346
Dave, so Chaos Mastery is still fully canon? With the "I'm better at Life than Life is" clauses and such?

>>47643356

No?

(Also, my favorite Path are Thyrsus, not Acanthus.)

>>47643385
Does the freelancer that wrote Prime and Forces?

I'm not being hostile, but whose idea was it to outsource one section (Arcana) to several different people to write?

>>47643385
Dave, can Scelesti form Cabals?

>>47643363

Non-yantra dice bonus for taking repeats of your ritual casting interval, no time constraints on throwing yantras on, not needing that first Reach for insta-casting, and ability to nor easily coordinate group casting and Sleepwalker (and Sleeper if you're a Libertine) assistants. If you have the time to do it, it's still well worth using a proper ritual to cast in.

>>47643400

I would assume it was "anyone who wants the book to be done". Splitting the Arcana is the logical way to tackle the huge word count.

>>47643423
>yantra bonuses

Boop boop boop, down and dirty spellcasting as long as there's no "time constraints" or "pressure," amirite, Dave?

>>47643385
As it currently stands, Acanthoi (and Time mages) are the only "real beings" amongst Mages, since only they have memories across timestreams, regarding Time. Regarding Fate, they are the only real beings because manipulating chances like Fate does implies that choices of a lot of things happening are a random thing, rather than a choice of an NPC.

NPCs being somehow metaphysically less important with PCs might make sense in something like a PbtA game, but it makes no sense in Mage. Why is Fate made to work that way?

>>47643400
Two Different freelancers. And that's how rpg writing works, Anon. One writer, one Chapter is really rare. (Werewolf is downright unusual in all gifts being done by Chris).

I did make sure no one writer handled both halves of a Path: Fate-guy didn't do Time.

>>47643403

Sure, especially the new who've got a corrupt Legacy. Most Scelesti are loners, though.

>>47643434

Once again, performing a ritual does not mean "no pressure".

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>>47643468
>Most Scelesti are loners, though.
Ah dicks, so you could have Scelesti who were nods to the Brotherhood of Dada, but not the Brotherhood itself. right?

>>47643538
I have no idea what that is.

Scelesti tend to infiltrate the Orders rather than form independent cults because all six Orders have a major hate-on for them, and the gateway drug of Befouling your spells requires no organizational background: new Abyss-addicts are constantly arising among mage society without existing Scelesti having to do anything, and if they live long enough to Join their Path to a Dur-Abzu they do more damage in the Orders than out.

>>47643586

They're Doom Patrol villains, specifically from Morrison's run. A lot of Morrison's Doom Patrol is like the rough draft for all of his later work, including The Invisibles.

>>47643468
>>47643504

How so? You're preparing yourself while you're not under pressure specifically to whip out the results when you're under pressure.

For that matter, a question! Am I reading this wrong, or there's pretty much no benefit to making an item for personal use via Prime 4?

For that matter (x2), can a Fate Mage add or remove the quality of tension from a scene via Ruling?

By stretching the strings of Fate in the vicinity taut, or giving them extra slack.

Dave, could you confirm how Supernal Magic interacts with the Hedge in 2e? Does it count as an Emanation Realm (no paradox for linked Arcanum unless witnessed by Sleepers, +2 Yantra bonus for Arcanum), or does it just work like the Shadow/Astral/Underworld in that spells of the suitable Arcanum get -2 Paradox?

I use the yardstick of "is there any tension around the room for if this spell works or not" to decide whether or nit to use Down and Dirty. Someone sapping their habitual monthly Shielding spell on? Don't use the mechanics. Ritually scrying for the abyssal entity or preparing your countermeasures against the traitor of the day
? Use the full magic rules.

Like with down and dirty combat, you get the hang of it with practice. If it's gone midnight out of character and you just want to gloss over a spell so your session's climax isn't delayed by an hour, that's when to not bother.

>>47643664
Dave, you know that using down and dirty still means you can cheese the fuck out of spells out of combat, right?

>>47643664
So there are yardsticks, not a "must" use? Because people said, you _must_ use DaD in some circumstances.

Also, the Prime ●● spell Words of Fire still lets you test theories with some creativity regarding manipulating beliefs with Mind.

For that matter, that caveat is rather weird. What stops you from directly checking for a statement's veracity as backed up by the realm of Cosmic Truths (or not backed up as the case might be) with Prime 2 Unveiling, or, hell, Prime 1 Knowing? Pierce Deception is, after all, a thing.

>>47643657
I'll wait until C2e is done before making such pronouncements, in case David decides for himself, but it'd either be a Paradox penalty to Fate or no alterations to magic. The Hedge isn't an Emanation Realm. (I know what it is at the moment, but again, David might rewrite it between here and C2e coming out!)

>>47643787
Hey man, quick question.
Legacy Attainments immune to Quiescence, right?
Being the manifest power of an Awakened Soul, rather than the Supernal.
I can't find anywhere it's explicitly stated.

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>>47643664

Does Exceptional Luck for Informed with the +2 Reach for affecting spellcasting allow a Rote Mudra-using spellcasting roll to exceptionally succeed with only one success?

If so, then you could use Fate 2's Exceptional to gain the Informed Condition on a Skill tied to one of your Rotes, and use +2 Reach to apply it to spellcasting. Use the 9-again boon on a chance die to turn it into a regular die, then Steadfast to make it an automatic success, then Informed to convert it to an exceptional success.
You can now go from -5 on a spellcasting roll to an automatic exceptional success, which seems like a bit much.

>>47643832
Why does killing with a Legacy attainment (a part of the fallen world) not risk Wisdom, but killing with a gun does?

>>47643864
Because your Legacy is a manifestation of your Mystic self.
It's the form you have quite literally shaped your Soul into.
To regret or believe you have transgressed in the use of the very form you chose for your Soul is laughable.

>>47643892
>To regret or believe you have transgressed

But the Wisdom subsystem doesn't care for that, or you would have been able to confound your moral center by using Mind.

It doesn't even care for your mental stats.

My big gripe with Wisdom is that right now it cares nothing about what sort of person you are. Dave promised us "Wisdom which is different from Integrity with added/renamed questions for Breaking Points" and he technically delivered that, but current Wisdom cares nothing for your ability to rationalize your actions and feels like it's bolted onto your soul by alien space bats.

I want to be like one of those BBEG wizards in the fantasy games. I can get a towerlike place to hole up in, but how do I make myself some autonomous minions for protection?

>>47643984

Golems.

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>>47643664
>>47643834

Additionally, what is stopping these functions of "boon":

>• Grant a dice bonus equal to Potency on certain actions (usually a single Skill) for a number of rolls equal to the Potency of the spell during its Duration. Multiple boons cannot grant their bonus to the same action; only the highest bonus counts. The subject’s player chooses which of his rolls are affected by this boon before rolling the dice.

>• Grant a number of beneficial Conditions (such as Charmed, Informed, Inspired, or Steadfast) equal to Potency for the Duration of the spell. None of these Conditions grant Beats when the subject resolves them (unless the caster achieved an exceptional success in the casting).

From applying to spellcasting even without the +2 Reach option of Exceptional Luck? There is no provision against using them for spellcasting here.

The entire "hex"/"boon" subsystem of Fate is frustratingly vaguely-written.

Dave, is the the lack of a dicepool for navigating within an Astral layer in the 2e core one of those things you put under reserved another book instead of Errata? Because that literally made us stop our Astral adventures last session, and having to wait several books for that simple dicepool would suck.

>>47643984
Matter if you prefer non-living.
Prime if you prefer constructs.
Life is you prefer living.

10 point if you go Life and fill it with D&D type animals.
100 points if you have Owlbears.

>>47644019
>100 points if you have Owlbears.
How would you stat an Owlbear using 2e CofD?

>>47643948
>current Wisdom cares nothing for your ability to rationalize your actions and feels like it's bolted onto your soul by alien space bats.

Why do you think that the Silver Ladder thinks that it was created by the Exarchs?

>>47644018
1e had a whole book about doing that: Astral Realms. I'm pretty sure it'd all work for 2e, too, since all the NPC stats were just for Goetia, and they haven't changed that much between editions.

>>47644069
You take a Bear, and then give it the senses of an Owl. Take a look at the Transform Life spell, in Life 3.

>>47644125
The Exarchs are Alien Space Bats?

>>47644125

>Why do you think that the Silver Ladder thinks that it was created by the Exarchs?

My headcanon is that the whole new edition is the work of the Abyss.

Consider: One of the rank 8 abyssal creature-unborn-worlds managed to slip through an Imperial Act that wasn't countered by the archmages and various elder rank 6+ spirits; thus all magic everywhere became more shitty — rituals are shittier, Hallows and Artifacts do not channel mana down anymore since the links to Supernality are weaker.

Arcadia, however, somehow slipped shards of itself into the Abyssal working, therefore Fate and Time are a lot better than they were, if abyssally-corrupted and thus unclear.

>>47644125
>1e had a whole book about doing that
Yes, but that's 1e. Looks like the Dicepool changed (if only because the new rules mean Astral travelers don't actually have the Attribute in question anymore thanks to using the Spirit Attribute spread) and switching to a 2e canon dicepool earlier rather than later would be helpful.

>>47644246
In addition, this accounts for "everyone remembering things to always have been this way". Imperial Acts tend to do that.

>>47644246
>>47644276

>IC Explanations for OOC mechanics

Go back to Exalted 2e and stay go

Can someone tell me the way to the Unknown Armies general? I don't wanna stay here

>>47644303
I won't either go or stay go. I can't use this heap of rules in any reasonable way without rewriting like 60% of it right now (especially since my game on hiatus that I stopped GMing for a bit with the intention to come back to it once 2e drops is effectively dead, because it had two Acanthoi and a Time-user Thyrsus), my hype is almost completely dead, so I might as well have what scraps and modicums of fun I can.

I've been waiting for this game since before it was Mage 2e. This is just so... disappointing.

>>47644420
Hey, at least now I can timeslide my way using official spells and not just some very creative use of precognition.

>>47644435
Sure you can, Bonesaw. Sure you can. As well as not be able to race the reaper anymore, because a Thyrsus medic cannot heal lethal at Life 3.

>>47644420

Why not just play something else instead of feeling obligated to put in the work? It's not to your liking, that doesn't mean you have to engage in fanfiction as to why you don't like it or why you feel that it's bad.

If you're going to indulge in that kind of thinking instead of just moving on, well, there's a whole edition with lots of support you can play, and it even uses the same basic dice pool system. It's even got magic in it.

Question: If a Werewolf walks past a Mage in Dalu (giant human) form, will their Badass Motherfucker passive ability trigger the Mage's Peripheral Mage Sight?

>>47644463
>Body Control
>Knit with time component
What are you even talking about?

>>47644466
>Why not just play something else instead of feeling obligated to put in the work? It's not to your liking, that doesn't mean you have to engage in fanfiction as to why you don't like it or why you feel that it's bad.
>If you're going to indulge in that kind of thinking instead of just moving on, well, there's a whole edition with lots of support you can play, and it even uses the same basic dice pool system. It's even got magic in it.

I've thought about it. Stages of grief of some sort, for me. I _am_ going to move on, but until then I am somewhat content to roast some marshmallows over this fire. I am just, you know, coming to terms with the fact that the thing that I've been waiting for since before Fall 2014 is... totally not what I expected.

Thankfully, I have a fallback idea of doing a campaign of minor talents and fractals, someday. But that comes later, I don't have the drive for it now.

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>>47644420

If it is any consolation to you, earlier, I had played in a very enjoyable one-on-one session of Mage 2e... but not in Storyteller. Instead, we used a highly trimmed, customized PbtA hack. We opted to do so after seeing just how much of a trainwreck it would be to use the magic system of Mage 2e, particularly Fate and Time (my character was an Acanthus out of concept).

My character got to brighten the day of a few young gafflings in the Shadow (one of which was a laptop-spirit who expressed thanks in the smiley equivalent of the First Tongue), while solving a mystery involving a changeling's fetch and a draconic Incarna that simply loved to burn down a single manor every year.

>>47644463

Life-based healing took such a major hit in Mage 2e. It is a shame.

>>47644323

No Unknown Armies general at the moment, someone'll have to start one. Otherwise the only place to talk about urban fantasy wizards is here.

>>47644518
>Thankfully, I have a fallback idea of doing a campaign of minor talents and fractals, someday. But that comes later, I don't have the drive for it now.

Take a look at the Hurt Locker Open Development stuff, then; there's like four or five new minor templates, plus a bunch of additional Supernatural Merits that expand on the ones in the corebook.

>>47644501
Well, "cannot heal lethal without jumping through a shitload of hoops" at least. Disregard.

>>47644533

Any details on this hack you wanna share? Did you use Simple World to build it?

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>>47644533
>If it is any consolation to you, earlier, I had played in a very enjoyable one-on-one session of Mage 2e... but not in Storyteller.

I'm thinking of making a Fate Core hack myself — but that makes all backwards compatibility go down the shitter.

>Take a look at the Hurt Locker Open Development stuff, then; there's like four or five new minor templates, plus a bunch of additional Supernatural Merits that expand on the ones in the corebook

That's what pushed me to hash out the idea, yes. Dreamers are awesome. I wanted to blend Dreamers and Hotel Mascaron for a supremely Memento x Hotline Miami feel.

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>>47644626

Unfortunately, it would never hold up in a group game. Due to a lack of "real" character creation rules, it would only really work in a one-on-one game wherein the player can simply write in whatever abilities they would like to have on their character sheet and then earn new magical abilities through a Paradox-like mechanic. The hack was also set up such that a character only ever has two dice values: things they are good at (2d6+2) and things they are mediocre at (flat 2d6), which only really holds up in a one-on-one game wherein the character must be somewhat omnicompetent.

>>47644679

I see. That's disappointing, I'm always interested in people playing settings with propietary systems in other systems and seeing how those work. I could see that being a decent base for another game (not even necessarily PbtA based), but yeah that'd fall apart in a group.

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For those who are disappointed with two-dot Attainments, it is worth noting that Mage 2e explicitly states:
>The second dot of an Arcanum grants a Lesser Utility Attainment and a form of Mage Armor.
>Lesser Utilities are Attainments that fit into the purview of the Arcana, but don’t map to the Practices and rely more on a general understanding of the Arcanum in question than of specific spells. Below are some of the most common Lesser Utilities, though the players and the Storyteller may devise others.

Thus, a player is free to craft their own two-dot Attainments. This would be most beneficial when replacing Forces 2's near-useless Precise Force Attainment. A Mind mage uninterested in goetia might even trade out Mind's Eye.

What would you personally replace Forces 2's Precise Force with?

>>47644840

I have seen one or two Fate Core hacks for Mage: The Awakening, but I cannot seem to find them at the moment. Likewise, I believe Urban Shadows, a PbtA-based clone of World of Darkness, has various fanmade playbooks for vaguely "authentic" World of Darkness supernatural types, but I cannot attest to their quality.

>>47644870
Oh. Does that mean that I could craft Constant Presence Attainment to not waste a spell control slot on it?

>>47644903
If your GM allows it, Bonesaw. I would have.

>>47644870

Actually, the idea I'm thinking off isn't really WoD/CofD related at all. You might have actually stumbled upon a McGuyver simulator, or something that could work with action movies.

>>47645107
Try Adventure! Tales of Aeon Society.

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>>47644903

That would come at the cost of Temporal Sympathy, however, thereby rendering *you* unable to fool around with the past, short of Shifting Sands and Corridors of Time and creative thaumaturgy equivalents of those two.

>>47645107

>You might have actually stumbled upon a McGuyver simulator, or something that could work with action movies.

I do not believe I have stumbled upon either.

>>47643948
>Wisdom decays through Acts of Hubris, wherein a mage ignores consequence in pursuit of her goals. Every mage and every circumstance is different from a Wisdom standpoint. Two mages in nearly identical circumstances may cast the same spell or commit the same action, but to one, his Wisdom is safe while the other risks degeneration.
>In the Acts of Hubris section below, you’ll see example acts for each level of Wisdom. These are only general recommendations. As a Storyteller, assess each action for potential hubris, and compare to the character’s Wisdom. If the character’s Wisdom is equal to or higher than the level you feel fits the action, the character risks degeneration.
>Acts of Hubris determine when a mage risks Wisdom degeneration. While this list is not exhaustive, it’s also only a series of guidelines. Feel free to add, take away, or adjust as you see fit.

>>47644468
No. Passive abilities don't trigger PMS, only active ones.

>>47645159

A one-on-one game of a competent protagonist who becomes more competent at great risk sounds an awful lot like something out of Die Hard to me, but fair enough.

>>47645130

That's the new edition I'm hoping for most out of the new Trinity Continuum. I love Adventure! and always found it strange that it and Spirit of the Century were more or less the only game in town for pulp gaming.

>>47645159
Where does it say that there's fixed numbers of attainments, though? Or that I cannot sacrifice the Time Armour instead?
Now that I think of it, sacrificing time armour is rather fluffy - having armour that will protect you against being erased from timeline instead of protecting against damage.

>>47645172

Yes, and? It -says- each Mage's Wisdom is different, but then goes on to produce a restrictive list of triggers for degeneration checks, with no way to personalize it (short of GotV Masque ●●●● or Inuring) and with no connection to what your character feels and how justified they are.

RAW, a premeditated murder of a sentient being is a medium Wisdom sin, no matter what the being is. How the more combative Arrows are supposed to stay sane I have no idea.
How -Scelesti- are supposed to stay non-Mad, I have even less of an idea — for Arrows one could just assume they naturally stabilize at Wisdom 3.

>>47645238
>The second dot of an Arcanum grants a Lesser Utility Attainment and a form of Mage Armor.
>Lesser Utilities are Attainments that fit into the purview of the Arcana, but don’t map to the Practices and rely more on a general understanding of the Arcanum in question than of specific spells. Below are some of the most common Lesser Utilities, though the players and the Storyteller may devise others.

Mage Armor is mandatory.

>>47645261
One -can- construe Constant Presence to be a form of Mage Armor (in fact, a lot more important armor than the x/y armor).

>>47642326
Forces mage for sure.
>Friction Knife
>Gravity Shift

All they need to do is survive.

>>47645246
>Wisdom decays through Acts of Hubris, wherein a mage ignores consequence in pursuit of her goals.
>These are only general recommendations.
>While this list is not exhaustive, it’s also only a series of guidelines. Feel free to add, take away, or adjust as you see fit.
Premeditated murder is an Act of Hubris if you do it regardless of consequences.
I'd say if you try even a bit to minimize the consequences their death would create(not specifically because you killed them, which would fall under the general umbrella of 'premeditatation', trying not to get caught), you're less likely to risk a sin.
And if you're an Arrow(or a Guardian), it's fine, as long as the killing was justified. Their death served a purpose, probably to stop them from fucking things up more than you killing them does.

Is there any way for non-mage supernaturals to not get fucked through time fuckery? Demons might have something, but it seems like everyone else is fucked.

>>47645317
No. It isn't. It takes up a spell slot, and can be dispelled. The Attainment armours can't.

>>47645361
But the current system doesn't care about that at all. (Especially since it is not tied to your attributes that would show that you rationalize the killing.)

Right now a premeditated murder is a medium Wisdom sin. Simple as that.

>>47645437
Depending on how changelings are written they might have some magic or pledges protecting them.
Woofs might try and get a contract with the spirits of Time and or Memories, as are relevant vampires(Ordo Dracul for example).

>>47645458
Obviously if you get it as an attainment it would do none of those things.

>>47645437
Changelings might find ways around it via Goblin Vow (Time) or whatever would supplant it for 2e, since it's freeform.

>>47645489
>Obviously if you get it as an attainment it would do none of those things.
Yeah. But since it is a spell, it does those things, and isn't a Mage Armor.

>>47645505
Dude, scroll up a bit? We're talking about the potentiality of developing OTHER common attainments instead of the canon ones, in this case an attainment emulating constant presence. Is it so hard to grasp?

>>47645470
I'm literally quoting the part of the RAW where it says you can ignore the example sins on a case-by-case basis.

>>47645590
The damn spell already exists, that's my point!
Making it into an Attainment would make it insanely broken.

>>47645645
Not really. Fate 4 "Unfettered" would also protect you against being rewritten, probably.

>>47645645
It's not like it would reasonably impact the overall broken mess. But I see your point now, sorry.

>I'm literally quoting the part of the RAW where it says you can ignore the example sins on a case-by-case basis.

Even if that is true and the ST wouldn't just use it as-written, how are you supposed to know what would prompt a degeneration check and what would not? You'd have to stay away from anything closely resembling a potential for degeneration because you have no option to somehow influence the roll in your favor — otherwise your Wisdom goes down and you have to gimp yourself by getting it back up which takes time and resources you're likely not to have, and thus it spirals down.

>everyone hating on 2e Prime
>I love it and it's my new favorite Arcana

What gives?

>>47647504
It has mechanical problems. It is a weird mix of Prime and Forces, while Fate is chilling being effectively better Prime than Prime is, for a lot of things. They have things like Warding Gesture etc.

>>47647504
>>47647551

So whats good and whats bad in Prime on 2e?

>>47647504
People are mostly complaining that Prime can't give free mana now. Which they can.

Complaining that phantom spell where replaced.

They also complain that dispeling is terribly. Even though all you need to do is have at highest 8 Potency for the spell. When the spell starts at 4 potency at least.

So yay I'm with you.

>>47647504
Prime's purview is mana, yet it has no spells for conjuring mana whilst others do.

Phantasms > Platonic Forms / Eidolons

Prime fails at what it's for, while Time excels

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>>47647658
Hollow Dance allows to to bring forth a Hollow which can give you Mana.

Wow look I found mana after a seconds of looking.

>>47647692

That's a Hollow, I'm pretty sure they're talking about straight Mana making.

>>47647692
So first you need to find a dormant Hallow in some random corner of the world where nobody else noticed it before, ensure it's not claimed by anyone else, then cast a spell to awaken it, then perform an oblation to get the mana

Wow, convenient

>>47647692
Awaken a dormant one, not bring forth. Making is five dots. Besides it's a lot less useful than the "rip mana out of things" spell was.

>>47647692
>Hollow Dance allows to to bring forth a Hollow which can give you Mana.
Only if there is a dormant preexisting one. Creating a new Hallow is a Prime 5 Spell. Though otherwise I am with you, not seeing the weakness of Prime yet.

>>47647706
>>47647724
>>47647730
>>47647742

You can also move leylines to have a hollow form naturally. With you guessed it Prime.

>>47647796
This sounds a lot like you describing spells that do things other than generate mana

>>47647796
>You can also move leylines to have a hollow form naturally. With you guessed it Prime.
Hallows don't come from ley lines, Nodes do. Nodes are often on Hallows, but they don't create Hallows.

>>47647811
Spirit can generate stait up essences till the 5 dot. But can cause thing to create essence before it. Same applies for Prime.

>>47647796

It's still not a spell that makes Mana. They want a spell where you cast it and you get Mana directly.

>>47647869
That can be done with Prime 5.

>>47647859
Spirit and Death mages are surrounded by low rank spirits and ghosts to mooch off; each one has at least 8 essence to take, and Ruling makes taking it a snap. Prime lacks any equivalent for supernal beings and mana

>not excited for any of the upcoming books
>given up hope on some of them ever coming out
>new White Wolf seems to be impossibly shit
>other games on the market all seem to be more vibrant, exciting, and mature
>favorite lines are essentially on hiatus anyway

Welp.

>>47645470
Yeah, if you plan the shit out of your murders and the outcomes of it, then it becomes less widsom hurting.

Say you set up something with fate so that the relatives your victim are minimally effected by your action, their minds braced against the emotional toil, and the victim was contributing no net positive to society, then you can proably justify it as a wise move to kill the person.

But if you just duck behind cover when a guy guarding a sleeping vampire pulls and Uzi, conclude "fucker has to die", wait a bit to see if you can think of a reason not to kill him, and then turn his blood into semen because it seemed funny, that is going to be a sin against a lower tier of wisdom.

>>47648063
>You are now aware that CofD is one to two years younger than WoD was when it was shitcanned.

>>47643346
We don't think they're official. We just think they're bad, and have more reason to complain about them than Claire's homebrews.

>>47647869
>Prime's purview includes Mana
>Making is a practice of the 5th dot
>Logic dictates that you can use Making to create something that falls in the Arcanum's purview
>Thus you could make mana at 5 dots of Prime

Excuse the devs for having a word count and expecting people to exercise a little bit of common sense.

>>47641808
>How do you feel about Fate's writer making Fate even MORE screwed-up and broken-ass even from 1 dot?
Terrible

>>47648457

What if White Wolf games are just on a decade long cycle of excitement, development, decline, and then replacement? Like CofD closes its doors but now One World of Darkness is somehow incredible or something, right up until 2026-2020 where Return to the Chronicles of Darkness becomes the new hotness.

>>47648777
>One World of Darkness
>Incredible
Incredible for European LARPs maybe. I feel like they need to start doing something that we as the public can see and appreciate before we start getting excited for them and their new products. Besides, CofD still has stuff in the works like Deviant and the other 2nd Editions. We have a ways to go before it all goes to shit, I think.

>>47648867

If oWoD looks anything like V20, it's gonna be absolute shit. It doesn't help that """Dracula""" is insufferable.

>>47648867

Well I, for one, am excited to play WoD on a slot machine. Now that we've got a pachislot remaster of Snake Eater, anything is possible.

>>47643435
For once I believe you posted without a Touhou...

Remembering things across time streams is not the only thing that makes a person "real". An Acanthus nudging Fate is no less realness destroying than a Mastitis making mind control, or altering space. Never mind that none of this is real--it's all The Lie

>>47643611
>You're preparing yourself while you're not under pressure specifically to whip out the results when you're under pressure.
Yes, and the results of that roll actually matter to the story because you've made them matter. Just like if an artist is trying to work on their magnum opus, suddenly that needs a roll, even if every other time they were able to handwave it.

>>47643779
The yardstick is "don't cheese the system with this optional rule that is explicitly there to move the story along, not help you do things better".

>>47644251
Why do you need canon? Use what you think is best. Use the Chase rules or something. Hell, get wacky and use Social Maneuvering. Or, since you've got reduced traits, Power+Finesse, since that's basically the only dicepool you have as a Goetia.

>>47644420
This is why Touhou is bad for threads. You believe that everything is fucked up and you'd need to rewrite 60% of the setting and that Acanthus is the only choice period and you might as well play a Fighter if you aren't one.

>>47644463
>>47644533
>Life-based healing took such a major hit in Mage 2e. It is a shame.
And that is a thing that Dave has agreed on and is considering changing. As it stands, Mage is probably getting the largest update between releases since Beast, and due to wordcount restraints, it requires a whole FAQ.

>>47644637
>>47644533
You could just... not break the game. It plays fine in like 90% of cases.

>>47643346

Dave, Eric's house spell "fixes" for Chaos Mastery might not all be canon for Fate in Mage 2e (although they do seem consistent with the provided rules), but they still nevertheless highlight and strongly emphasize the conceptual and mechanical ambiguities in the Arcanum and how, quite rationally, people might be concerned that Fate is comparatively very overpowered or just plain broken.

Also, can Mages learn new and additional (not alternative) Arcanum Attainments, and if so, does is it cost XP and how much?

I'm really looking forward to the final errata and FAQ, and hope a lot of these repeated issues and arguments are finally resolved (and/or expounded upon in greater detail in supplements like Signs of Sorcery).

I think Mage 2e is quite good, definitely an substantial improvement over 1e, and I commend you for dong a good job as developer, but there are sufficient mechanical problems that must be addressed, and soon.

>>47643787
>The Hedge isn't an Emanation Realm

Dave, If the Hedge isn't the Supernal, Shadow, Underworld, Astral, Lower Depth or a Emanation Realm (and it's presumably not the Principle), what other potential realms are left under established CofD canon?

>>47645470
>>47645361
>>47645246
>>47648170
"+2 to your Wisdom roll because you took precautions and made sure your Act of Hubris was contained as well as could be expected"

Is there anything like the Tremere in VtR?

>>47647551
>>47647639
>>47647658
>>47647692
>>47647706
>>47647724
>>47647730
>>47647742
>>47647796
>>47647811
>>47647835
>>47647859
>>47647869
>>47647905
The spell that let you rip Mana out of things wasn't even that great. It was like 1 mana for three structural damage and limited beyond that as well, but I can't look it up because no subnet. Creative Thaumaturgy up a better version for 2e. I'm pretty sure you can still steal Essence and turn it into Mana using a Spirit/Death/Mind+Prime spell. Hell, do a Prime+Life (or Life+Prime) spell and rip more mana out of living creatures instead of just Devouring the Slain.

>>47649951

No, I've seen the person post that before, and the disappointment they currently feel started a little bit after the game came out out. People were unhappy with some aspects of the game well before Touhou posted anything. It's not like he's some kind of magic pied piper whose song dupes people into buying a copy of some other game.

>>47649951
>Life-based healing took such a major hit in Mage 2e. It is a shame.
>And that is a thing that Dave has agreed on and is considering changing

I expect Dave will ultimately leave Lethal healing at Life 4 despite all the protests and confusion.

Dave and the writing already knew of all the potential issues concerning the choice during development, and I expect nothing will change during errata due to 'game balance" and related concerns.

In fact, although I expect Dave and crew to readily and sincerely *acknowledge,* note and empathize with a great many of the Arcana objections and protests, it's quite likely they will change very little substantive material in the errata phase.

>>47650041

Well, I believe that just leaves The Hedge. The Hedge and Arcadia's probably just its own world separated from the other worlds.

>>47650179
That is what I'm afraid of, but I cannot say that I am surprised if that is truly the case. Beast had some similar issues with powers and abilities, and people hated that game to begin with. OP probably just doesn't have the funds or the time to go through all of the things people might have issues with.

>>47650179
>>47650242
Everything about the game other than the actual spells is great, and the game literally tells you to make your own spells and provides you with a very good system for doing exactly that.

I don't know why people's feelings about the game hinge so heavily on the actual Spells. I've barely even looked over any of them except the ones people bitch about.

>>47650407
The actual spells are the starting point for many people on how to make their own spells to begin with, and if they're out of line it sets a bad precedent for any and all spells that people create. Not only that, but most people are going to default to the normal spells the first time, so if something is busted it could turn them off of other aspects of the game, or make encounters criminally easy and potentially unenjoyable for those people who picked the less "broken" options.

any chance someone has the v20 dark ages pdf?

>>47650543
Yes, the OP.

Can you overwrite "direction" of aging with Time just like you can change vectors with Space?

>>47650562
all thats in the mega is the revised...

>>47650611
Changing vectors is Force. That said, yes, the attack spells of time do exactly that.

>>47650506
While I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I feel like that kind of complaint is a little overexaggerated. There's not really anything super busted that will throw any game out of wack, not even in 1e, where Mind really could do anything.

>>47650611
I'm pretty sure there are existing spells that let you fulfill your age reversal fetish.

>>47650611
As in, cause someone to age in reverse?
Sure, Time 4.

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>>47641835

>>47643385
>No?

Then why did you let it happen?

You're the dev.

Why hadn't I really taken a look at the Horrors in the corebook until now?

There's an environmental tilt called "Zombies!". Zombies have a bane for attacks to the head.
There's also an evil house.
>Best At (10 Dice): Being scary and disorienting, lashing out with household appliances, luring people in and keeping them there.
>Worst At (2 Dice): Anything but being a house.

>CofD going to shit
>oWoD has always been bad

>meanwhile Scion looks dope as fuck

Later nerds.

>>47651396

Better time than ever to post the latest preview: http://theonyxpath.com/scion-second-edition-a-new-calling/

Scion 2e really is looking pretty dope.

>>47651396
>>47651445
This is only because we haven't given them enough time to fuck it up yet. People were super hyped up for Mage, now we just need to wait until Scion comes out and we realize its just as borked as the first version.

Is the only way for a VtR vampire to "mark their territory" through the use of Animalism's Lord of the Land?

What are some other ways to keep normies out?

>>47651479

It would be extremely hard to bork up Scion 2e as bad as Scion 1e. If it is borked up, it's going to be borked up in new and exciting ways.

>>47651552

Have you considered using a gun?

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>>47651691
>Have you considered using a gun?

>>47651445
Trickster best calling

>>47651716
Why do stock photos like this exist?
What pressing need is there for a stock photo of a young dangerous woman holding one goldfish and gun? Also, that goldfish is clearly photoshopped in, which begs more questions.

So V20 Ghouls and Revenants is out, has anyone read through it?

>Find someone you want to embrace
>Ghoul them
>Embrace them
>Free point of potence

Does it explain why everyone doesn't just do this?

My drinking buddies and I have been playing Mage 2e we're having fun.

Could use some ideas for mysteries. So far we've done an opera house thats only visible under the full moon, a seer pylon that has been using the girl scouts for a front, and quelled the angry spirit uprising at the local kebab shop.

>>47643346
Dave, you are being more of a shit then Holden and Morke right now. As long as it's clearly labeled as non-official, it's fine. Fuck's sake.

>>47652270
>People are throwing a fit as if these things were official and drawing conclusions like "Acanthus are intended to be the master race"
>"There's not a problem!"

>>47652270

I disagree. Dave fully acknowledged that Eric knows and explicitly informed everyone that his fixes are house rules and not official or canon. He doesn't object to Eric's general comments about his writing or thinking processes or any changes his group may make to the rules for their games.

However, Eric is still a freelancer and actual author of the problematic Fate material, and as such, anything posted by him is unsurprisingly given much greater attention, authority and persuasiveness.

Since Dave is currently attempting to errata and otherwise fix some material, most notably Chaos Mastery, having even more confusing material out there before his revisions or FAQ as developer only aggravates the existing problem.

>>47652376
>problematic
>Fate

Maybe if you're a shit ST.

>>47652566
While I agree, >>47652376 still has an entirely valid point. I mean, "Hey I fixed my shitty job, but it's even shittier lol" from the actual writer is...

>>47650097
Tremere liches are the closest you'll get. An order of mages that became vampiric in a way.

>>47652224
That sounds... Well it sounds amazing.

>>47652224
Check the CofD corebook. I like the Black Eyed Children explanation. They're larval Men in Black that accidentally escaped into the world and don't realize they have an aura of fear.

>>47652566
>problematic
>Fate
>Maybe if you're a shit ST.

You do realize that Dave himself has explicitly acknowledged some problems with Fate, particularly the Chaos Mastery spell, and intends substantive errata? That's the primary reasons why he wasn't thrilled with Eric's suggested "fixes."

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>Words of Truth (Prime ••)
>Practice: Ruling
>Primary Factor: Potency
>Withstand: Composure
>Suggested Rote Skills: Expression, Intimidation, Persuasion

>The mage speaks with tongues of fire, and the world listens. So long as the words the mage speaks are objectively true and the mage herself knows them to be true, all subjects of this spell can hear her and understand her clearly, regardless of distance, noise, or language barriers. Moreover, all subjects know, on a soul-deep level, that what the mage says is true.

Nice spell.

>>47652978

That's not a fucking Touhou you goddamn liar.

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>>47652978
>>47652998

The rules adjudication issue with Words of Truth arises when the mage is misinformed (whether through mundane misinformation, mental manipulation, or a self-imposed Mind spell) and then attempts to use the spell to convey what they believe to be the truth.

The spell says:
>The spell only works on statements the mage knows to be true: She can’t use it to confirm or reject theories.

In which case, what happens? The mage thinks something to be true, but it is objectively false, and then the mage tries to convey it via Words of Truth... which cannot confirm or reject theories. Does the spell implode on itself?

>>47653148
>the words the mage speaks are objectively true and the mage herself knows them to be true
Then the spell fails. That's not confirming or rejecting a theory. That's going "LISTEN TO ME FOR I SPEAK THE TRU--Oh shit, what? How can I be wrong?"

Captcha that's not an orange, that was a fucking lamp.

>>47652978
>>47653148
>>47653241
Spell only really works when you're saying what you believe you saw and think. Otherwise it can be used to confirm/reject theories though the misinformation clause.

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>>47653241
>>47653304

Words of Truth seems like a roundabout way of ensuring that you are never personally misinformed, then.

I suppose it could also be achieved through a Prime 1 Knowing/Unveiling spell, however, similar to the incredibly useful Pierce Deception.

>>47653539
Except that you're intentionally quibbling. It doesn't keep you from being misinformed because you can't cast it if there's any doubt. You have to be casting it "for real" and expect that it will work only for you to be wrong, which is an incredibly rare occurrence. Although, yes, if you're a Prime Mage, you're generally not going to be misinformed in the first place, since you're able to tell whether or not something is capital T True.

>>47653644
>can't cast it if there's any doubt
Well obviously that's a way to tell if there's doubt!

>>47653644
If you made yourself believe something, you WILL be casting it "for real". Otherwise one might bring up the potentiality that any given thing might be Veiled by a Seer and you just didn't pierce the potency of the veiling yet, so you cannot be sure of anything .

>>47653659
I meant that you can't cast it if YOU doubt. So if you think "Hrm, is this true or not?" means you can't cast it.
>>47653696
And if you believe something is true but it ISN'T True, the spell fails. But if you're uncertain of something, you can't cast the spell at all.

>>47653720
Watch this.

1. Use Mind 2 with a duration of a scene to make yourself believe P=NP, via Ruling.
2. Attempt to tell what you sincerely believe to your cabal mate. You sincerely believe it whether it's true or not.

2a. P is actually equal to NP, you sincerely believe it. The spell works.
2b. P is Not Equal to NP, you sincerely believe it. The spell doesn't work.

3. The cabalmate notes whether the spell worked.

4. Let the scene elapse, dismissing the Mind effect at the end of it.

5. You have just learned whether P=NP is objectively true.

>>47653792

If you only believe it because of a spell manipulating your mind, you don't sincerely believe it.

>>47653803
Why? Mind modification makes targets honestly believe things.

>>47653826

Irrelevant. The Supernal knows the truth of the matter.

>>47653792
>>47653826
That does not work. Again, you cannot use the spell simply to confirm something.

>>47653803
>>47653826
For that matter, with creative thaumaturgy, you -should- be able to devise an "Is this True as backed up by the Aether" spell, by letting the Realm of Truths check the objective veracity of target statement.

I realize how utterly scenario-breaking this is, but I see no reason for it not to work as per the Practices and Arcana purviews presented by the book.

I'd like to ask Dave if he's gonna be around to see this, whether that would work, and if not, why not.

>>47653872
At what step it does not work, then, and why?

For that matter, would it work if a devout Catholic Obrimos would start quoting scripture about the existence of Jesus using it?

There's enough honest belief to make mental manipulation unnecessary.

>>47653902
The part where you're doing the entire scenario to determine whether something is true or not.

>>47653880
I'm pretty sure that'd just return with a negative anyway. Or maybe it's capital-T-True even if it's not factually true? I mean, that would be in line with Gnosticism

>>47653902
At the step where the spell-text itself says
>The spell only works on statements the mage knows to be true: She can’t use it to confirm or reject theories.

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Reading Second Sight, so far, all I have to ask is why does it suck so much?

I liked Hypnotic Voice but that was it so far. What am I missing.

>>47642083
Send any google cache url you notice and like to archive.is.

>>47654055
At the time I am casting it, I know the fact to be true. Via magic (or via a lifetime of catholic upbringing, for the second example) but I do.

Or do you mean that the spell tracks intent somehow? Because that would mean that Prime can do that now (and tracking intent to do things is a cool spell to use).

>>47654087
Over costed. Slash most merit costs in half.

>>47654171
>Or do you mean that the spell tracks intent somehow?
You know what, let's go with yes if it'll get you to stop being dumb

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>>47653880

I have mentioned in a previous thread (>>47625738) that "truths" is quite possibly the most powerful and flexible of the Prime Arcanum's purview elements, and that using it for creative thaumaturgy could be the key to redeeming Prime from the scrapheap.

This is especially the case considering that Mage 2e more strongly emphasizes that the Fallen World is all one great "Lie" and that mages uncover the truth behind "Mysteries." It stands to reason that the ability to suss out the truth and perhaps even Veil it (truths fall under Prime's purview and Veiling spells can conceal anything under the purview, so Prime can Veil truths) is extremely relevant to the themes of the game.

By Prime 3, a mage can Weave and transform the properties of objective truths. By Prime 4, a mage can Pattern and completely rewrite objective truths. By Prime 5, a mage can fabricate objective truths from thin air, and even unmake objective truths.

This is surely quite powerful, and it is a shame the premade spells never went much into this.

>>47641835
Paradox, get your ass on these forums and explain why anybody should spend a wood nickel on the exact same products we have been playing with for 15+ years without your sorry IP nazi bullshit. We kept this game alive when the company you purchased from strangled it. What do you think youre going to do thats any different than CCP? Do you think I will keep buying if you make it so easy indexing is impossible?

>>47649951
>This is why Touhou is bad for threads.
Aspel, you dense, reading comprehension-impoverished moron.

That is obviously not Touhou. You can tell because a) he said he was actually GMing a WoD game, and b) the actual Touhou guy appears to have replied to him.

>>47654329
No, he's whining and cunting about how it's so obvious and clear that 2hufag causes all the problems and that if he wasn't talking about them, people wouldn't get upset about the problems with the system.

Basically, Aspitusm is crying that anyone dares to point out the flaws of a game.

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>>47654171

>Or do you mean that the spell tracks intent somehow?

"Intentions" is a purview element of the Fate Arcanum. "Destiny" also falls under Fate.

An Acanthus with a Prime/Fate or Prime/Time Legacy (e.g. Reality Makers) could selectively redefine objective truths, intentions, and destinies across the past and the present while living agelessly, which is hilariously world-warping.

There is very little reason why the Fallen World and all its past and present is not being ruled over by ageless mages (not quite archmages) who can be contested only by others of their ilk.

>>47652718
No relation to CofD's take on it, but the BEK urban legends' original was great, the later installments and additions just got more and more retarded.
https://web.archive.org/web/20090908035555/http://www.ghosts.org/stories/tales/evil-kids.html

Why the hell are there youtube videos about 'white eyed kids' now.

>>47654329
>>47654357
Did you read literally anything else in that post or did you just see me complain about Touhou and instantly hit Q and start typing shit? I said Ads is giving people this impression that the game is an unplayable mess.

>Basically, Aspitusm is crying that anyone dares to point out the flaws of a game.
Motherfucker I've pointed out several flaws of the game myself. "I can do stupid shit that the game doesn't technically say I can't" is stupid bullshit.

>>47654377
>There is very little reason why the Fallen World and all its past and present is not being ruled over by ageless mages (not quite archmages) who can be contested only by others of their ilk.
It is. They're called Exarchs.

>>47654379
I'll have to remember to check that out later. It's currently very much night time, and BEK are fucking spooky as shit.

>>47654435
Oh fuck off the edge of my dick, you braindead tumor.

You've done literally nothing but cunt this whole time. Whaa whaa, stop talking about the problems, whaa go away, whaa get a blog wha whaaa.

Stop sucking the dev off for writing bad rules, faggot. Your insent, autistic screams of how RAW shouldn't need to match RAI never gets less retarded.

>>47654171
You don't *know* it to be True. You *believe* it to be true.
The capitalization on the t is important, too. If something is True, this is reflected in the Supernal. The spell only works if you know that what you're saying is True.
A devout christian using the spell to say "God exists!" would probably have a crisis of faith because, as it turns out, his god doesn't exist according to the Supernal. Yahweh is a Lie.

>>47654464
Stop acting like I'm saying the rules don't matter. I'm saying focus on the ones that do. Sketchy interpretations of the wording doesn't matter to me nearly as much as "this is a dumb grab bag". It's like that dumbass who gets bent out of shape when I use "literally" figuratively.

>>47654087
Relatedly, what are the various powers/methods that can temporarily lower a target's Resolve dots? How many are accessible to mortals?

Weed can temporarily lower Resolve-based dicepools, among other things, but that's not technically the same as temporarily lowering Resolve dots.

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>>47654482

If your claim is correct, then the Prime Arcanum allows a mage to veil, redefine, rewrite, create, and unmake objective cosmic truths. With some Fate, they can do so based on intentions and/or destiny, and with Time, they can apply such changes into the past to have made such alterations retroactively True.

>>47654511
Go reeee somewhere else, dumbass.

You've said SEVERAL TIMES that RAW shouldn't have to match RAI, and that's totally fine and legit.

Just go fuck yourself.

>>47654534
Yeah, but have fun with the Wisdom sins of completely destroying an objective Truth and/or the concept that defines it.

>>47654539
No, I didn't say "shouldn't", I said "shouldn't need to". I don't want a book to waste time with overly detailed break downs of every possible situation that can arise. I don't need (or even want) the book to tell me that logical conclusions must be drawn and that something that prevents "New Conditions or Tilts" will have reasonable exceptions, like being able to walk into the darkness and still see, because "Blind" is a Tilt. I do not need a game to explain to me that I can't just Iron Heart Surge the blizzard away and walk through hip deep snow because it's a Tilt.

>>47654482
I'm pretty sure that kind of thing is actually mentioned in the Obrimos write up. Most Mages either lose their religion or decide that there must be some Primal Truth behind it all and endeavour to reach that.

>>47654534
You can't change cosmic truths any more than you can use Matter to Unmake the planet.

>>47654665
Go fuck yourself, autismo.

>>47654665
"Shouldn't need to in all cases". I want clear rules. I don't want rules that take into account every single possibility.

>>47654689
This is literally the opposite of autism, anon. Autism would prevent minor leaps of logic like that.

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>>47654600

Redefining and unmaking truths is not necessarily under the list of suggested Acts of Hubris, which are more grounded in human morality than anything else.

If it worries you, be a Guardian of the Veil and use your Masque Merit (which you can quite possibly pick up through Mystery Cult Influence anyway) to shield yourself from Acts of Hubris as needed.

>>47654665

>You can't change cosmic truths any more than you can use Matter to Unmake the planet.

"Truths" are under the purview of Prime, and are thus subject to all of the Practices, including Knowing, Unveiling, Veiling, Weaving, Patterning, Making, and Unmaking.

I need fast tips on how to build a campaign start. I can't think of fast plots to develop the intro. please help (mage 2e)

>>47654708
>REEE REEE STOP ASKING QUESTIONS IT'S FINE IT'S FINE WHITE ROOM ST WOULDN'T ALLOW GO AWAY

No, nigga, no. When the rules on the paper don't match the intent, the paper has to change. And you crying and screaming about 'common sense' doesn't cut it.

>>47654765
The Seers are interrupting the Free Council's gay pride (note: leather daddies only) parade.

>>47654759
>"Truths" are under the purview of Prime, and are thus subject to all of the Practices, including Knowing, Unveiling, Veiling, Weaving, Patterning, Making, and Unmaking.

Sure. Now go figure out the scale factor on a Truth like "humans are not ruled by mages", and you'll be getting somewhere.

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>>47654818

Fate is hardly bound by any Scale factor when tugging the strands of destiny to let that 0 XP Acanthus with Fate 3 conveniently bump into a profoundly unlikely and helpful Allies 3, Contacts 3, Mentor 3, Resources 3, or Retainer 3 within an hour.

Why would Prime be?

>>47654774
>I'm going to complain until you stop complaining
Do you honestly expect me to even give a shit?

>>47654759
As an example of the kind of thing that I complain about:
>While this list is not exhaustive, it’s also only a series of guidelines. Feel free to add, take away, or adjust as you see fit.
I am perfectly fine with being given a brief overview of what the Tiers of Wisdom represent and a handful of examples. Depending on what particularly you're changing and what it's consequences might be, it could very well fall under one of the existing categories as well. But beyond that, again, "cosmic truths" have as much chance of being unmade as the planet does.

Masque would also not be a valid choice for Mystery Cult, because it is from the Orders. Mystery Cult is used to create Nameless Orders, as described on page 80.

>>47654885
B-but something something common sense REEEEe.

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>>47654886

You are rather incorrect on the matter of mystery cults and the Awakened. Page 106 tells us:

>Effect: Your character is a member of a secret society, which can represent anything from a fraternity house or scholarly group to an organization directly controlled by an Awakened Order such as a Cryptopoly or the Labyrinth. This Merit may also represent membership of a Nameless Order for mage not in one of the six main Orders.

You can take Mystery Cult Influence 5 for one of the Pentacle or the Seers' many mystery cults and then reap 10 Merit dots, which you can then spend or intentionally lose to cash in for XP.

>>47655049
>which you can then spend or intentionally lose to cash in for XP.
See, this is why I complain about you. Because you literally want us to stop having nice things because you can abuse them, but you don't even play the system in the first place.

Please stop baiting the Aspel. Doug is incapable of letting things go and has serious issues. He lives to play the victim when he's incorrect and you're just feeding that complex he's got.

>>47654886
And you need to grow up and stop spending literally all your time arguing about things that don't matter online. What do you plan to do when your parents die? Live on the street?

>>47651361
the core book is great. It is full of stuff I throw into all my games.

However the original had a good fluff piece. The original is seen as far better.

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>>47655105

The question is why the Mystery Cult Initiation and Mystery Cult Influence Merits exist in the first place despite serving no mechanical niche (Status in a cult is not a concept that deserves a new Merit) and despite being an awful idea all around (take a Merit to gain more Merits).

>>47655193
It's not an awful idea. I like Mystery Cult. I'm sure plenty of other people do as well. It's meant to have drawbacks. Even Influence is meant to have drawbacks. I have absolutely no problem with Mystery Cult or other merits like it, like Status in a Hunter Org. I don't mind merits that give free Merit dots. It helps flesh out a character as well. It definitely serves a mechanical niche in that regard, giving you benefits for swearing your allegiance to a larger organization. That it's not rigidly defined with a set of specific cults that are the only ones you can pick from is something that I like. It's a flexible merit that allows Storytellers and players to create something that works for their Chronicle.

Which is why I don't like when you use it in ways that are clearly not intended simply because "the book doesn't say I can't". It serves it's purpose. I like it's purpose. In any game I played in or ran, it wouldn't cause a problem, even if it *did* end up being "ten free merit dots". But because you treat things as if they're ONLY mechanics without any greater context, you want to argue things like taking Mystery Cult Influence at five dots in two cults that all have merits you don't qualify for and then cash them in for Experiences that you then use to buy yourself Gnosis 5.

The reason I'm "REEEEing" isn't that you're complaining about mechanics. It's that you're complaining about ones that I feel are working as intended, provided the player in question doesn't do something stupid. I don't even think it should be against the rules, either, because I don't feel like this is a case where you should have hard and fast rules. If that means you get to argue that they can be "broken", so be it, but that doesn't mean I want to keep hearing you bitch about them either.

>>47655438
>I think it's fine so how dare you complain about it
If you don't want to hear about it? Fucking leave. There's the fucking door, let it hit you on the way out.

>>47655467
"This functions exactly as it's intended to unless you intentionally break it" is valid criticism to a complaint. The only way to make the merit work to Touhou's satisfaction would be to either place arbitrary limits on it or to outright remove it, neither of which I would want.
If you don't want to hear my counterarguments, there's the door. Or do you not like disagreements in your hugbox?

>>47655546
Problem being man, that the merit itself doesn't explain those problems, which leaves them in the realm of the GM, which is at best a mild inconvenience, and at worst a risk-free way to get a shitload of free merits.

>>47655546
Hilarious, given you constantly screech about how he should get out, you hypocritical faggot.

Your inability to accept what you like might be horrible design space for the game only clinches it further. Don't expect another reply, the first guy was right, you thrive on attention.

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>>47655438

Mystery Cult Initiation and Mystery Cult Influence cannot be taken multiple times, because they lack the provision of separate instances that the Allies and Status Merits do have. However, a character *could* have Mystery Cult Initiation in one cult and then Mystery Cult Influence in another.

>It definitely serves a mechanical niche in that regard, giving you benefits for swearing your allegiance to a larger organization.

Either Status in an organization gives you a diverse array of benefits, or it does not. Mage 2e's Social Merits are a complete trainwreck, because we have:

- Regular Status, which does nothing but give you "street cred" in an organization.
- Mystery Cult Initiation, which is like regular Status, but also gives you free Merits.
- Mystery Cult Influence, which is like Mystery Cult Initiation (which, in turn, is like Status and gives you free Merits), only with less restrictions.
- Consilium Status and Order Status, which are like regular Status, but also critically important to Awakened society. Additionally, they allow you to requisition plenty of other Merits as well, and possibly even make permanent requisitions.

This results in an absolute mess wherein Mystery Cult Influence can chain into Consilium Status or Order Status, which in turn allows the acquisition of even more Merits.

This is a rules catastrophe.

>>47655718
That's... Horrifying.
Plus if you base that entire towering pillar of Merits on top of the Mystery Cult Influence, you can walk away completely one day with no questioned asked by rescinding that Merit, leaving someone else holding the bag when the Seers come a'knocking.

>>47655718
>This is a rules catastrophe.
While a waste of pages, what's wrong with the existence of rules that no one will use? There's already lots of specific mechanics that don't come up in the vast majority of games.

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>>47655773

I do believe it should be possible to have Mystery Cult Influence 5, which then grants Mystery Cult Initiation 5 and Order Status 5. The Mystery Cult Initiation 5 could then grant Consilium Status 5 and five other dots of Merits (Lex Magica 2 is a good option for the Silver Ladder).

As you mention, this can all be walked away from whenever one wishes.

If you happen to be a Seer outright, it is worth knowing that Seers Status adds to your Resources for mundane purposes, theoretically allowing you to have a staggering Resources 10.

>>47655864

There is an utter lack of consistency on what joining an organization actually *does* from a mechanical standpoint, given four disparate methods which can somehow stack upon each other.

>>47655932
>what joining an organization actually *does* from a mechanical standpoint
Nothing really. If they have secrets or benefits squared away and you access them in character, you represent locking down the benefit with whichever merit you and the ST figure is best.

It's a niche case that is technically possible, but doesn't come up in actual play (or as a purchasing consideration) frequently enough for anyone to address it.

It's a valid complaint, but if this is a dealbreaker for you, you're just not the target audience.

>>47655633
Again, I'm fine with that. I don't see that kind of thing as a mild inconvenience, I see it as part of character creation when done during that time or part of running the game if you introduce it then.

>>47655718
Again, I use my common sense on things, so if for some strange reason you're in two cults? Fine by me as long as that comes into play. And that's the thing. I'll agree that generic Status is kind of useless ("people defer to you and you get bonuses to social rolls"), but I don't mind it existing, especially when STs are encouraged to give it out for free.
I don't mind Merits that exist primarily to hang narrative off of. I *LIKE* Merits like that. I also don't mind Merits that give you freebies essentially for having a concept, like Professional Training.

>This results in an absolute mess wherein Mystery Cult Influence can chain into Consilium Status or Order Status, which in turn allows the acquisition of even more Merits.
Except that is not a situation that will ever come up in play, which in many cases IS a valid response to ludicrous criticism.
>>47655773
If your Storyteller lets you do any of it, which is incredibly unlikely. I am entirely okay with that. I am okay with groups deciding what their limit for shenanigans is.

>>47655932
The problem with this is that all of it is supposed to be narratively and thematically consistent. You can't take some Mystery Cult Influence that gives you Initiation that gives you Status because that kind of ridiculous chain simply isn't reasonable. And again, when the limit is "what's reasonable", I'm perfectly fine with that. Different groups will have different levels of what's reasonable, and giving the most unreasonable example means nothing to me.
The MOST EXTREME is not likely. Why bother caring about it?

Where does it say religious Obrimos have a crisis of faith because it turns out religion is a lie?

>>47655718
Status actually has the same benefits as Order status, they're just not spelled out:
>Second, she has access to group facilities, resources, and funding. Dependent on the group, this could be limited by red tape and requisitioning processes.
I'll admit that *could* stand to be more explicit, but honestly I'm fine with no hard and fast rules on what Status 5 in being a Cop means.

It's also worth noting that these are merits with explicit roleplay considerations built into them. It isn't like a Fighting Style or something like Fleet of Foot or Hardy. You have to actually be part of the organization and have it fit your character concept. Status 5 in being a Cop means you're probably at a desk, not out personally solving crimes.

By the way, if we want to talk about things that actually are shitty: Fleet of Foot. Then again, did it have the -1 to anyone chasing you in 1e? I would look it up, but no Subnet.

>>47656338
Seems it was just me drawing conclusions about the non-religious Obrimos mentioned, or maybe something from 1e. Pretty sure in 1e crises of Faith were mentioned a few times.

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Back to the topic of Prime's untapped potential mentioned in >>47654271, another useful purview element of Prime could be "revelations."

A mage can Know, Unveil, Weave, Pattern, Make, and Unmake Revelations, which suggests that a mage could perceive just about anything (even ghosts, goetia, and spirits) and in turn Veil the supernatural senses of other creatures, preventing a changeling from kenning stopping or a Spirit mage from actually seeing spirits. This seems quite useful.

>>47656199

>You can't take some Mystery Cult Influence that gives you Initiation that gives you Status because that kind of ridiculous chain simply isn't reasonable.
Flavor it as some sort of Proximi Dynasty of extreme prestige and status, whose Awakened members are revered enough to automatically enter high positions in mage society.

>And again, when the limit is "what's reasonable", I'm perfectly fine with that. Different groups will have different levels of what's reasonable, and giving the most unreasonable example means nothing to me.
Or perhaps the Merits could be written in a more consistent fashion to start with.

>>47656430

>I'll admit that *could* stand to be more explicit, but honestly I'm fine with no hard and fast rules on what Status 5 in being a Cop means.
There being actual rules for requisitioning under Consilium and Order Status makes them superior to relying on wishy-washy, ethereal guidelines under regular Status. This is on top of such Status being more important in Awakened society than most other Statuses.

>It's also worth noting that these are merits with explicit roleplay considerations built into them.
Mystery Cult Influence, fortunately, has very little restrictions. Even Mystery Cult Influence 5 is far more benefit than restriction if the built-in Status 5 lets you wield the full power of your cult.

>>47656523
>Flavor it as some sort of Proximi Dynasty of extreme prestige and status, whose Awakened members are revered enough to automatically enter high positions in mage society.
>Whose Awakened members are automatically allowed to become the local Hierarch/Tetrarch and leader of whatever Order they're in
Yeah, no, that makes absolutely no sense at all.
And that's literally what dots in Order/Consilium Status represent--ranks, which come with responsibilities and tasks you're expected to fulfill. You could, theoretically, do that dumb rules-lawyering shit to give yourself Status 5 in both your order and the Consilium, but then you've just straight up given yourself more responsibilities than the MC Influence merit lets you avoid.

>>47656523
A Mage with Prime cannot Unveil literally anything to see Ghosts, Spirits, etcetera, because those are not in that Arcanum's purview. You're now back to arguing ridiculous premises from a ridiculous start.

>Flavor it as...
Again, that is something that is incredibly unlikely to fly with a group. It is not something that will come up in play. And, again, I and likely many others would not enjoy overly strict rules that spend twice their existing wordcount on strictures and limitations. At best is "determine with your group".

>wishy-washy, ethereal guidelines under regular Status
The Order Status concerns very defined existing groups. Status is "literally anything you can have status in". Status isn't more important in Awakened society than Status other places. Status in a company is pretty important if you're in that company.

>Mystery Cult Influence, fortunately, has very little restrictions.
It has the restriction that no group would ever allow it to be used the way you suggest, but on top of that, it says "you finance or run a cult", so if your character doesn't finance or run that cult...

This is why I hate when you do this. You complain about things that are unreasonable when there are so many reasonable things to complain about. You also don't provide solutions other than "play a different game". You're not the developer, no, but to *players*, that doesn't matter if you can provide a good suggestion.

I want to be a touhou

>>47656714
>>>/a/

>>47656722
>Suggesting someone should go to that horrid place
>>47656714
Eat yer veggies and learn to dodge bullets

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>>47656609

Fortunately, unlike in Mage 1e, Order Status and Consilium Status come with the ability to requisition large amounts of other Merits which should help you actually accomplish your position.

>>47656690

>because those are not in that Arcanum's purview
"Revelations," however, is a purview element of Prime.

>The Order Status concerns very defined existing groups. Status is "literally anything you can have status in".
Consilium Status and Order Status represent anything from a small-town Consilium to Manhattan's Consilium, and anything from the Free Council to the vastly different Panopticon Ministry. If a single Merit can be a catch-all for such things, then surely Status could use similar consistency.

>on top of that, it says "you finance or run a cult", so if your character doesn't finance or run that cult...
Considering the built-in Status 5 in the cult itself, this should not be a problem.

>You also don't provide solutions other than "play a different game". You're not the developer, no, but to *players*, that doesn't matter if you can provide a good suggestion.
The ruleset is riddled with so many issues that, frankly, it actually *would* be sensible to play another game altogether.

>>47657063
You do get that your merits you can requisition are temporary, and constantly (ab)using your status is a good way to lose it, right?

Revelations doesn't mean "literally revealing anything". I'm pretty sure it means the fucking game mechanic.

If you don't run the cult, you don't get Status 5 in it.

>The ruleset is riddled with so many issues that, frankly, it actually *would* be sensible to play another game altogether.
I and many others disagree. This thread is not for other games. Nevermind that many of your problems come from theory and not actual experience. You assume problems exist that don't actually exist.

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>>47657159

>You do get that your merits you can requisition are temporary
According to Consilium/Order Status, they last for a "story," which is an entire adventure. That is a considerable amount of leeway. This means that Consilium/Order Status 5 lets you requisition as many three-dot Merits as needed in any given story, and also requisition a five-dot Merit once per "chapter" (session).

>constantly (ab)using your status is a good way to lose it, right
If it is used to actually advance the Consilium and Order, probably not. You get to be in a high position that lets you requisition a large amount of Merits to influence your side of Awakened society from the highest level possible; it seems like a good deal to me.

>If you don't run the cult, you don't get Status 5 in it.
It is a good thing that the cult is part of an Order anyway, which you in turn have Status 5 in. Besides, you do have Mystery Cult Influence for running things in a hands-off fashion anyway.

>This thread is not for other games.
There is no restriction against discussing the setting of the World/Chronicles of Darkness from a system-agnostic viewpoint. Conversely, there is no restriction against discussing the system itself and its many flaws.

>>47657333
You're not discussing things from a system agnostic view. You're also pointing out flaws that aren't considered flaws. They do what they're intended to do, you just don't like that because of the freedom inherent to them, you can use them in ways that weren't intended. You refuse to acknowledge intent at all, and deny a whole bunch of the kind of gentlemen's agreements that are required for any RPG to work. Yes, the merit allows you to do some ridiculous things. If your group is comfortable with those ridiculous things, so be it, but there are many more reasonable ways to achieve the same goals without nearly as much baggage.

This is a system that flat out says "ask your ST for free Experiences" and allows you to gain things for free in play. You don't even need to cheese the system like this. This is literally more trouble than it's worth.

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>>47657401

>You're not discussing things from a system agnostic view.
When bringing up other games, that effectively is.

>You refuse to acknowledge intent at all, and deny a whole bunch of the kind of gentlemen's agreements that are required for any RPG to work.
This is not mutually exclusive with decently-written mechanics.

>This is a system that flat out says "ask your ST for free Experiences" and allows you to gain things for free in play.
A Ctrl+F search throughout the Chronicles of Darkness core rulebook reveals no such passage.

>>47657494
>With Storyteller permission, you may ‘cash in’ a Merit voluntarily and replace it with Experiences. This should not be used as a way to purchase a Merit, take advantage of its benefits, and then cash it out for something else. But if a Merit’s run its course and no longer makes sense for your character, you may use those points elsewhere.
I think this is what he was referring to, fampai
Literally the same line you were using to hinge on argument on a day or two ago, iirc.

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>>47657646

Page 99 of Mage 2e, a more recent source, has a different version of the rule:

>If something happens to Allies, however, those points are not lost. The Allies dots disappear but you receive Experiences equal to the dots lost. This is called the Sanctity of Merits rule.

>If your character loses a Merit, you may repurchase it in the next chapter of your chronicle. You can’t just say, “All right, my Allies died. I’m buying new Allies to call.” You’d have to wait until the next chapter. Alternatively, you can spend those Experiences on other traits that are relevant to the situation. Maybe losing those Allies inspired a few trips to the firing range to let off steam, so you spend those points on a dot of Firearms.

The Mage 2e rules simply give you Experiences outright upon losing a Merit. There must be some deplorable editing at work here if the two sources disagree.

In any event, that is not actually "free" if it comes at the price of Merit dots. A cost must be paid, however small that cost is compared to more Arcana and Gnosis.

>>47657494
>A Ctrl+F search throughout the Chronicles of Darkness core rulebook reveals no such passage.
Not those exact words. And also it doesn't seem to be in the corebook, and fuck me, I can't find it in the GMC either. I swear I saw something that just said to ask your ST if you feel you need more XP. There isn't even a mention of starting the game with experience at all anymore. Goddamnit why do they remove things just to make way for repringing part of the GMC again?
>>47657646
No, what I'm remembering was part of the Integrity rules or Experiences or something, and it suggested asking for more (instead of being able to drop Integrity like you could Morality, so that everyone has Morality 5 and 10xp)
Literally fuck me, though, I can't fucking find that and I've been through Mage, Core, GMC, and now Vampire.

>>47657692
They say the same thing in different words.

>>47657494
Again, intent matters. This is a place where MORE RULES will not benefit anyone. How would you write these merits to your own satisfaction? Probably 200 more words about all the specific ways that you can and can't use them? I would not want that. I like it the way it is. It allows for flexibility while giving groups the freedom to set their own limits. Just because you feel that by RAW there should be no limits doesn't mean that it's a bad merit. It is implicitly at the whim of the ST and not something that happens in a vacuum. No game happens in a vacuum. These are not computer run games, they're run by people. They have fuzzy rules. Even the games you like have fuzzy rules.

>>47657760
The closest I can think of is the 'advanced starting xp' things, which are in VtR and WtF 2e(and Beast and Demon, I think). Dunno why they aren't in Mage.

How is mage 2E? I haven't had time for Table tops since like January. I missed quite a bit of shit but since mage has always been my favorite line I'm hoping it's good. At least on B&S levels mechanically. Setting has always been something superfluous because it can be changed at the drop of a hate but mechanics, for me anyway. Has always been a different beast all together.

>>47648777
Hey, man, we talked about this for months until they games us barren hints. That would've been the sweetest shit, right? New infusions of talent, monsters redone into something warped yet familiar, something exciting to see.

What One World of Darkness seems to be is literally that: they shunted the "New" of nWoD and slapped Chronicles on the front 'cause, hey, that's what it was doing for like two years so that's the whole story, and now only o/cWoD is a World as such. It's all just titles and consolidation, but that was a lot of months of build up and trepidation for some new licensing and the promise of likely only cWoD based games "someday".

Has anyone heard that Tencent, that Chinese conglomerate, has bought significant shares of Paradox? That worries me potentially more than the last one.

>>47658198
It's good. The Arcana rules need a bit of updating, but the game is good.

>>47658221
Tencent bought stock in Paradox because they want to help bring the Grand Strategy games to China. I pointed this out to you last time you brought it up. There isn't anything to get worried about in the first place, this is completely normal. They are the second largest shareholder at 5%. The head of the company owns 33% of the stock.

>>47658198
There's still a lot of broken shit in Mage 2e and at least three dudes in this thread are ditching it in favor of something else.

>>47658273
What's wrong with it?

>>47658314
You know you're talking to Aspel, this general's resident "Nuh uh, CofD games are the best ever and all their flaws 'just need a bit of updating!'" autist, right?

>>47658198
Fate and Time are probably too strong, but otherwise it's pretty good.

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>>47658198

I greatly admire the core mechanics of Mage 2e's spellcasting system and consider it to be a masterpiece of design. The way spell factors work (especially given the choice between aiming for a regular success or an exceptional success) and the way Reach works is extremely well-done, posing a riveting challenging of weighing risks, rewards, and probabilities. Withstand adds another layer of puzzle-solving, as a mage does not know precisely how much resistance they should account for.

The low amounts of spell control at low Gnosis also force a mage to carefully consider precisely what buff spells they should bring along to a scene, and this puzzle becomes even more engagingly complex when Gnosis 3 opens up combined spells.

Choosing Praxes and Rotes during character creation is also a very interesting puzzle, as it forces a mage to consider which spells they will be trying to achieve exceptional successes on, which spells they would like very high Reach on, and which spells from their non-Ruling Arcanum are important enough to warrant waiving a 1 Mana surcharge from.

The individual spells are where such well-crafted design immediately falls apart, of course.
Due to the way individual spells are written (particularly the sheer effectiveness of buff spells, most especially under Fate, whose Exceptional Luck spell alone can break the spellcasting subsystem), DaveB has had to introduce ham-handed fixes like "mages should use nerfed spellcasting rules in scenes with neither time constraints nor tension, and take cumulative -1 dice penalties for failure if these are time constraints or tension," and those fixes still fail to repair the underlying problems behind many of the game's spells.

I also think that the Yantra subsystem is compelling in theory, but ultimately boils down to "Use the numerically best Yantra you have available, then the one after that, then the one after that," which is no puzzle at all.

Mage 2e has a very good foundation and poor meat.

>>47658337
Nope I haven't actually been on the thread in forever. My job school and other shit have kept me too busy. But that makes sense. I'll have to read it.

>>47658337
>Only one person has this opinion
I complain about plenty of things. For fucks sake I was remaking one entire gameline.

>>47658314
A lot of Practices are off, and most of the sample spells are really written with an eye for wordcount, so you basically have to use them as only guidelines and fill in the blanks. Also Fate is just "iunno, make something up".
A lot of it isn't something that'll really be a big deal unless you try straining the system intentionally, like arguing a time spell that keeps you from "gaining new conditions or tilts" will keep you from being handcuffed (Immobilized) or let you see in the dark (Blinded).

>>47658393
The vast majority of the game is perfectly fine. You put flaws under a magnifying glass and act like they're the whole of the game.

>>47658393
I'm honestly confused why you don't like Yantras. You can't use every Yantra for every spell, you know. They have to have some connection.

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>>47658455

Yantras are a simplistic matter of "use the best one applicable, then the next best one applicable, then the next." This is all the more the case when a mage might as well have a literal keychain of Path, Order, and Dedicated Tools. As well, Environment Yantras are strangely useless, providing only a +1 bonus.

There is no real mechanical puzzle or risk-reward management involved in Yantras, as opposed to the spell factor vs. 1/3/5-success mechanic which forces a mage to weigh the odds, and the Reach mechanic which likewise makes a mage consider just how much to risk.

>>47658497
Yantra are basically just equipment, though. What else did you expect them to be?
I mean, some kind of system that was more than just dice bonuses would be nice (Rote Factors provided free Spell Factors of a particular type for instance), but that seems more fitting for Signs of Sorcery. I do wish there were more that dampened Paradox, though.

And again, keep in mind that much like regular equipment, you need the right tool for the job. If your Yantra is a Key, you can't just use it for every spell ever.

Has anyone used the Investigation or Chase systems yet? Or even Fate

They've been out for a while, but no one seems to have mentioned them.

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>>47658656

>What else did you expect them to be?

Something more risk/reward-based, just like spell factors and Reach.

>>47658720

I am also interested in the rules for "plans" from Chronicles of Darkness, which allow a character to use Wits + Composure (not Intelligence + Wits or Intelligence + Composure, but Wits + Composure, which goes against the general idea of Intelligence being more ideal than Wits for planning...) to formulate plans that grant equipment bonuses if followed.

>Or even Fate
What part of Fate?

>>47658455
>You can't use every Yantra for every spell
Tell that to Mantras and Order Tools.

Then consider a Mage will likely specialise, and follow the path of least resistance, which usually involves re-writing reality in the way you're more proficient,

Meaning other Yantra like Persona, Sacraments, and even Rote Mantras become much more applicable.

Then there's the biggest and most useful Yantra, sympathy.
Significant proportions of the time, Mages will be enhancing themselves or an ally with Magic, meaning it'd be very easy to get even the slightest Material Sympathy for an easy +2.

>>47658765
I feel like you're overestimating how much risk and reward there was. I tended to settle where I was comfortable and roll that dice pool. Not everything has to be a complex thing. Since Spell pools are generally pretty low, having Equipment is a necessity.

Wits + Composure is a fitting dice pool for keeping your head under pressure and coming up with an idea. The very next sentence is also that the ST or player can suggest alternatives as appropriate.

>>47658812
Most of the magic I used in Mage was on the world, not the characters. Except for Suppress Other's Life, which was my go to answer to anything and everyone who tried to get up in my person. The point I was making is that it's like Equipment (it IS equipment). You can't assume you've got what you need on you at all times.

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>>47658765
>What part of Fate?
Missed this. I mean the mechanic Fate from the corebook, not the Arcanum that you're so in love with. The rule that they tried to excise that kept coming back in every version only to be edited out, because they forgot to change the original document for some reason. Guess that's just what happens when you only have freelancers.

>>47658862
>Except for Suppress Other's Life, which was my go to answer to anything and everyone who tried to get up in my person
God damn it Shamin...

>>47658962
Shamin?

If that's a name, I'm not him. I'm just someone who didn't want no trouble and played a Moros with Aikido 3. If someone gave me trouble, I reflexively hugged them and put them to sleep.

>>47658996
Guy in my last group.
Someone got antsy? Suppress Other's Life.
Cop tried to give him a ticket? Suppress Other's Life.
Someone boring him to death? Suppress Other's Life.
Someone disagreed with him? Suppress Other's Life.

>>47659014
Oh, I can't say I used it THAT often...
Just if someone in melee range attacked me.

>>47659023
That's good.
Take my word for it.
It's REALLY hard to convince a Winter Court embassador that his Bodyguard is only temporarily dead.

>>47652978
>you can reenact the entirety of Umineko on some poor fuck using just the core rules

>>47659039
https://youtu.be/d4ftmOI5NnI

>>47659048
For those of us who aren't weeabs?

>>47653880
>Realm of Truths check the objective veracity of target statement
Aaand we are getting to formal logic, Kurt Gödel's incompleteness theorems and other areas to which you wouldn't like to stray unless your gaming group consists of math majors who specialize in logic. In that case go on - session will degenerate to discussions about formal logic, however it will be still "entertaining" (in quite a different way).

>>47659069
>For those of us who aren't weeabs?
Trap a family of 18 on a secluded island and kill them over and over until one of them gives up and starts believing in magic.

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>>47658862

>I feel like you're overestimating how much risk and reward there was. I tended to settle where I was comfortable and roll that dice pool.
Trying anything fancy does take a balance of risk and reward with spell factors and Reach, on the other hand.

>Since Spell pools are generally pretty low, having Equipment is a necessity.
Ideally, spell pools would have been moderate and Yantras would have added risk/reward choices on top of that.

>Wits + Composure is a fitting dice pool for keeping your head under pressure and coming up with an idea.
This does not actually fit the kind of plan one would hash out in a relatively calm environment.

>The very next sentence is also that the ST or player can suggest alternatives as appropriate.
That does not stop the default from being silly. Chronicles of Darkness generally favors Wits to a significant degree over Intelligence, and that is before we consider that Defense keys off the lower of Wits and Dexterity plus Athletics.

>>47658883

That is not in my copy of the Chronicles of Darkness rulebook.

It is much too grim and pessimistic a rule for my liking, but it can fit a less hopeful game.

>>47659120

As I pointed out in >>47654271, by Prime 2, a mage can Veil objective truths from others. By Prime 3, a mage can Weave and transform the properties of objective truths. By Prime 4, a mage can Pattern and completely rewrite objective truths. By Prime 5, a mage can fabricate objective truths from thin air, and even unmake objective truths.

This is surely quite powerful, and it is a shame the premade spells never went much into this.

>>47659120
When there are actual Legacies that deal with quantum physics (Threnodists, for example), this is not something that should be swept under the rug in the rules, dude. It is perfectly possible for a say, Free Council scientist to be using Prime 2 Unveiling to see if his research goes into the right direction.

A sidebar would have been really nice.
Same for how high technology ideas stolen from the future with Time and then manufactured by Forces and Matter should work.

>>47659140
That sounds like the sort of thinga crazy member of the Sliver Ladder would do for...reasons.

>>47659164
>stolen from the future with Time
Problem being the future is inherently indistinct, and gaining any concrete information about future inventions would be exceedingly hard.

>>47659174
Not really. Mysterium on the other hand...

>>47659162
>That is not in my copy of the Chronicles of Darkness rulebook.
That's because you don't have the final version.

Also, I kind of prefer spell pools being low. It prevents a lot of 1e's problems.
You also don't get to use your own personal unreasonable musings as if they were true. Just like you don't get to say that Fate can grant Attribute dots. We also get into "what spell factor do you require to target the planet" and even then, unmaking an "objective truth" wouldn't change reality to suit it.

>>47659164
>A sidebar would have been really nice.
I would not want a sidebar for any of that. It is squarely in the "decide on your own" level. Personally I think that's silly and stupid and wouldn't want it in my game or referred to officially. That's oWoD level shit.

>>47659191
>>47659174
I feel like Guardians are the ones most likely to gaslight someone.

>>47659191
I'm fine with it being high tech from a -possible- future.

As a tangent, adding in rules guidelines for high technology built under the effect of Goetia-induced strange moods (I.e. that example of "the spirit of Iron Man teaching you to build power armor" ) would have been nice too. Techné is generally kinda shitty when compared with its fluffy description. And then they even went and lost the é accent.

>>47659218
>Goetia-induced strange moods
All the moods in the world can't teach you to make a Warp Drive.
The Astral is the realm of the Collective Unconscious, not a realm of truth and knowledge.

Nowhere in the Astral exists instructions on how to build a Warp Drive, because no human knows.
The God-Machine does, but it's not Human, and even if we got our hands on its schematics, there's no way in hell we could parse them.

>>47659284
Fractals are human. And no, the -Temenos- is the realm of the collective unconscious. You can go poke Dream born for information, especially if you are a Dreamspeaker or potentially an Imagineer.

>>47659218
>Goetia-induced strange moods
>"MAY ARMOK HAVE MERCY ON OUR SOULS!"
Something tells me this line would be perfect for a Mad Mastigos who uses it whenever he transposes several tonnes of molten rock onto people.

>>47659284
Besides, I spoke of a powered armor, which is a lot more feasible thing. Especially when you get to put in batteries vastly superior to what mortals get, due to later enhancing the whole shebang with Forces 2 to be superconducting and energy-recuperating.

This aspect of blending tech and magic is criminally underused, especially with Free Council and Pantechnicon being a thing, and the funny thing is that whenever I bring it up people start to shout at me that they don't want shit like that in their games and that I should keep magic and science separate.

Even though the Adamantine Arrow has literal warhammer-style dreadnoughts for their fallen members.

>>47659299
Fractals probably don't count. They're tainted.
Also yes, that's the Temenos, but that's the only important realm if you want to talk about concepts relevant to makind.

The Oneiros is deeply personal and can't teach you anything you don't already know on some level, and the Anima Mundi doesn't really conform to human constructs of Engineering and Physics.

Plus, even if you could get a Dreamborn to tell you about the world, I doubt it could tell you how to build something like that, and Imagineers gaining inspiration from the Astral is no different to amping your brain up to ludicrous levels and focussing it on a single topic with Mind, then using Time to give it a few years to ponder.

>>47659284
>there's no way in hell we could parse them.

If mortals can kinda-sorta hash some protocols together (check out the cosmic tier in CofD core, plus the New Future Society from Hunter and the Deva corp from Demon (even if the last one had some slight angelic help) ) than Mages can do at least that much, especially the potential to be superhumanly clever with Mind honing.

>>47659328
>criminally underused
Problem becomes, if all you want to do is use Magic to create super-tech which has none of the disadvantages of Magic, which you can build with readily accessible materials in very little time...

Why are you playing a game about Mages attempting to capture the lost fire of an ancient and mystic world?

>>47659378
>New Future Society from Hunter
Huwha? Do you mean Utopia Now?

>>47659363
Fractals are still human enough to count human. Besides, the Unchained are the only splat that -is- allowed into the Temenos (by, effectively, cheating like a bunch of cheap fuckers, but I digress.)

>is no different to amping your brain up to ludicrous levels and focussing it on a single topic with Mind, then using Time to give it a few years to ponder

Funny thing here. That would be the next thing I would love to talk about. What are the guidelines for making new stuff with your superhuman intelligence? Say what you want about oWoD, at least it had rough guidelines as to what 6+ dot stats -mean-, qualitatively, except being an extra +1 to the roll after 5.

>>47659380
Because I might as well be playing a Free Councilor with none of that attitude, who thinks that Humanity is Magical and As Below, So Above? It's right there in the core book.

>>47659213
Aspel please go.

>>47659406
Yes, I think. The ones that reverse engineer Unchained corpses for humanity's benefit.

>>47659213
>You also don't get to use your own personal unreasonable musings as if they were true. Just like you don't get to say that Fate can grant Attribute dots. We also get into "what spell factor do you require to target the planet" and even then, unmaking an "objective truth" wouldn't change reality to suit it.
1: Fate doesn't take Scale to warp the fuck out of destiny on a huge scale.
2: Why not? You're manipulating truths. That's what Prime DOES.

>>47659453
Unmaking Matter is what Matter does, but you can't unmake the planet. Also, changing the truth of something doesn't change the reality. You can alter the Truth of something to be green, but it's not going to actually turn Green.

Someone up thread used the example of unmaking the truth "Humanity isn't ruled by Mages".

>>47659444
>Humanity's benefit
They're Bioshocky Libertarians. They reverse engineer Infrastructure for their OWN benefit.

>>47659474
>You can alter the Truth of something to be green, but it's not going to actually turn Green.
Actually, I take that back. Changing something's colour actually was a Prime spell in 1e.

But you can't undo a truth like "Gravity is a thing" with Prime.

>>47659474
>Unmaking Matter is what Matter does, but you can't unmake the planet.
Because there's a tangible target, duh.
>Also, changing the truth of something doesn't change the reality.
Objective fucking truths dude.
>Someone up thread
You mean you, Aspel?

>>47659453
Just ignore him. He literally won't shut up once he's made up his mind, like how Fate can't possibly allow dots despite nothing actually saying any such thing.

>>47659474
Really? Oh well, I read a concise description and thus thought of them better than they are. In any case, they are getting nonzero benefit from doing it, while ostensibly being human. So mages can do a similar thing.

>>47659474
>They reverse engineer Infrastructure for their OWN benefit.
This has no capacity to go wrong at all.

>>47659441
>>47659483
We get it, you don't like Aspel.

>>47659483
>You mean you, Aspel?
No. Stop assuming everyone who says something you don't like is me.

>>47659490
At this point not even DaveB would convince you otherwise.

>>47659496
>>47659501
Utopia Now is so dumb and also one of my favourite Compacts. I'd link their write up, but lolsubnet.

>>47659508
>Implying anyone does

>>47659501
I'm not saying it's wrong or right. I'm saying that Mage should have some guidelines as to what a Mage can accomplish using their superior understanding of the working of the Fallen World (by using Knowing and Unveiling spells) as well as superhuman intelligence and competence, which is possible via, amongst other sources, Mind honing.

For that matter, I would have liked for Dark Eras to have an "ancient astronauts" sidebar of sorts that explains how Mages didn't turn technological progress on its head. I had a hacky solution for my own game set in 1341 (which basically boiled down to "The Tower implicitly protects the Mage from obtaining information via Knowing and Unveiling that he cannot understand or may hurt his mind" — a part of the back story of the party Thyrsus was that he developed a Knowing spell that willingly rescinded this protection, allowing him to learn the sum total of the information encoded in a living pattern, even if he immediately forgot a huge chunk of it — also triggering an automatic breaking point. He almost went insane when trying to read the structure of a common ant and suddenly understanding its full cellular composition and getting several terabytes of ant DNA crammed into his mind) but this is not an official solution, is inelegant, and can be twisted into super-massive research ANYWAY if your mind is strong enough.

>>47653902
>For that matter, would it work if a devout Catholic Obrimos would start quoting scripture about the existence of Jesus using it?

Do you know anything about Catholicism? Not knowing if the whole thing is true or not but believing it anyway it's the whole concept of Faith.

>>47659570
In that case how is that spell is supposed to work? You can never be 100% sure in anything. Anything at any time could, theoretically, be an illusion or confabulation of your own mind or a Seer plot or whatever.

>>47659587
Something that isn't going to ever factor into anyone's mind.

>>47659628
Who cares? You're still objectively not 100% sure.

And
>Mage society
>Always trusting your senses 100%

I don't think this is realistic.