/cofd/&/wodg/&/mtag/ Chronicles of Darkness & World

>>47624362
Turn blood to orange juice when vampire feeds.
Its kills the target, but it hurts his humanity and generaly fun so totaly not hubris.

>>47624362
>How do you bully your local non-mage supernaturals as a mage?

Send spirits to troll vampires, because there's nothin g they can do about them

>>47624362
Summon Strix to fuck with vampires.

Why does everyone want to fuck with vampires? C'mon guys, they already get a raw deal as far as supernaturals go.

>>47624362
Anyone got the new V20 book?

>>47624854
Probably because sh*t roll downhill and ordinary Sleepers often pay the price for Vampiric mess-ups. Siccing Strix at the problem doesn't sound like a sane solution but the motivation makes sense.

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We all know how the premade spells of Mage 2e greatly favor Fate and Time (and, to a lesser extent, Mind and Space) and grind Prime to the ground, but how does Spirit hold up?

Spirit is easily the most "mother may I?" of all ten Arcana, since the majority of its effects are reliant on whatever local spirits the ST gives the mage to work with. As page 124 of the Chronicles of Darkness core rulebook points out:
>When mortal characters encounter spirits, something has gone wrong.
>The spirits that mortal investigators encounter in the physical world are refugees and escapees, those that crossed the Gauntlet to flee the constant risk of being killed and absorbed by larger spirits.

Thus, most spirits on the Fallen World side of the Gauntlet are the outcasts of the spirit world, and will not be especially common.

At Spirit 1-2, a mage is *purely* at the GM's mercy. They have no options whatsoever for accessing new spirits, so they must work with whatever the bones the ST tosses their way, or else rely on Spirit spells that do not require a "real" spirit, like Spirit 1's Coaxing the Spirit or Spirit 1's Gremlins. Additionally, Death and Spirit both have the weakest type of Mage Armor, which is poor for survivability.

Spirit's only saving grace at 1-2 dots is that any given supernatural creature *without* spirit-related capacities has minimal recourse against a spirit taking hostile action against them from Twilight or from across the Gauntlet. Even a mighty Acanthus with high Fate and Time can only go on the defensive. However, this takes a spirit with the proper Manifestations and Numina, which will be purely up to the ST.

>>47624854
I mean "lol the air is silver now" is funny for a while, but werewolves just don't have as much slapstick potential.

I mean you can make friends with a Beast, treat them like your best bud then go into the Astral and bang their Horror, i that's your cup of tea

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>>47624996

Spirit 3 is a little better. Reaching with +1 Reach can take the cabal to the Shadow, where the mage can gain access to better spirits. Rouse Spirit can bring a spirit out of retirement to hopefully serve the mage, and Spirit Summons with +1 Reach can call an ideal spirit from across the Gauntlet as well. Howl from Beyond (its flavor is a dead ringer for a generic JRPG "dark element" spell, no?) gives a mage a last-ditch attack spell that requires no "real" spirit, though since it deals only bashing damage, it is not spectacular.

However, it is Spirit 4 where the real fun starts. First of all, thanks to the Honorary Rank Attainment, a mage with Spirit 4 is *always* treated by spirits as a Rank 4 spirit (a greater jaggling or a "Count/Countess"). Page 128 of the Chronicles of Darkness core rulebook clarifies that this counts only when beneficial to the mage, so they get to be Shadow World nobility with none of the downsides. They can also spend Mana to reduce a spirit's Social maneuvering Doors, but that can be costly... for now.

Spirit 4 gives a mage a tremendously powerful spell: Shape Spirit (previously a five-dot spell in Mage 1e). Shape Spirit can change a spirit's fundamental nature and give it new Manifestations and Numina, so with a little preparation time, the mage can *always* have exactly the right spirit to accomplish virtually any task. The mage can summon or personally approach a powerful jaggling from the Shadow World, persuade it (mundanely or via Command Spirit) to undertake a mission, and then cherry-pick for it the best possible Manifestations and Numina for the job.

>>47624996
>and will not be especially common

Nyet, there's absolutely loads of them. Everyone wants out of the Shadow, our side of the gauntlet has yummy yummy essence with significantly fewer predators

is damnation city good for the purpose of map making and city building?

I am struggling with making a city

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>>47625007

By Spirit 5, well, what is there to say? All spirits treat the mage as a Rank 5 spirit, an incarna (or "Marquess/Marchioness"). Incarnae are spirit-gods, so the mage is hailed as a literal god by the spirit world. Rightfully so, too: they can use Create Spirit to make the right spirit for any given job (though it is a little unclear if this is a Lasting effect or not), and they can ingratiate themselves to every spirit around by creating an unlimited amount of Essence of a Resonance type of the mage's choosing.

With a familiar (creatable by Spirit 4's Familiar spell), the mage can create Essence for that familiar, which the mage then commands the familiar to transfer over as Mana. This helps with the Honorary Rank Attainment too, since the mage can approach any given spirit and then spend a chunk of Mana to immediately open all of its Doors.

Overall, Spirit is only slightly better at 1-3 dots than it was in Mage 1e, and that is solely because of better options for spells that do not take a "real" spirit. However, it is far better at 4-5 dots than it ever was in the previous edition, particularly since Shape Spirit is now merely a four-dot spell, and Honorary Rank is a tremendous boon when dealing with spirits.

I do believe a mage has much easier access to high Honorary Rank amongst spirits than even werewolves, no? I wonder how it must make the Uratha feel if mages with high Spirit are given more deference than most werewolves will ever be given.

>>47625003
>Go into the Astral and bang their horror
I'm now imagining a smug husband and wife pair of a Beast and Acanthus who lord over "lesser" supernaturals since they are both so clearly at the top of the pile and therefore justified in whatever they do.

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>>47624996
>grind Prime to the ground
Why did I ever sign up for this shit?

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>>47625018

The Mage 2e book does not give an especially useful view on just how "common" spirits are on the Fallen World side of the Gauntlet, but the impression I receive from page 124 of the core Chronicles of Darkness book is that spirits in the mortal world are supposed to be somewhat uncommon.

>When mortal characters encounter spirits, something has gone wrong. Some spirits are capable of using their powers through the Gauntlet and, as their self-awareness grows with power, decide to create food sources for themselves by influencing what sort of spirits and Essence will be created around them. The true culprit behind an unusual pattern of domestic murders, for example, might be a murder spirit using its abilities to escalate arguments into homicides.

>The spirits that mortal investigators encounter in the physical world are refugees and escapees, those that crossed the Gauntlet to flee the constant risk of being killed and absorbed by larger spirits. They constantly strive to maintain their Essence, desperate to avoid returning to their own world. Without an easy source of Essence, spirits must anchor themselves like ghosts, finding an object or person that reflects their nature and tying their ephemeral bodies to them. The spirit remains intangible — and is often actually “inside” the host — but is safe from starvation as long as the host generates enough Essence to feed it. By influencing the host, or humans interacting with a material host, to more closely reflect its nature, the spirit gets a ready supply of Essence and may move on to more permanent forms of possession. Many items thought of as having wills of their own, or as being cursed, actually house spirits.

Perhaps it is just my reading, but it does not seem like a mage could count on, say, any old umbrella having an active spirit to command on the spot.

>>47625211
Do you have Werewolf? That's the spirit book

>>47624854
Because they're dirty sluts who deserve to get roughed up a bit

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>>47625089

I had just checked Werewolf 2e, and it takes a Uratha a staggering 13 dots of Renown to be treated as an Honorary Rank 4 spirit, and 19 dots to receive a "We hail you as a god" reception as an Honorary Rank 5 spirit.

Since a werewolf starts with 3 dots of Renown, and each subsequent dot costs 3 Experiences, it takes 30 XP to receive Honorary Rank 4 and 48 XP to have Honorary Rank 5. Even then, that is sinking *all* XP into Renown, which is terribly overpriced for what it does.

Assuming a mage starts with Gnosis 2 (perhaps because they spent 5 starting Merit dots on Mystery Cult Influence 5 in order to gain 10 Merit dots in exchange, which could very well be cashed in for 10 XP) and Spirit 3, it will take them only 9 XP to gain Gnosis 3 and Spirit 4, and 23 XP to have Gnosis 5 and Spirit 5. They may not have the best Mage Armor around, and they might not have invested into the writer's favorite Arcana of Fate/Time (and Mind/Space to a lesser degree), but at least they are a literal god of spiritkind.

>>47625229

I do, but it is proving surprisingly unhelpful in telling me how common spirits are in the mortal side of the Gauntlet.

>>47625331
Considering the incoming errata and edits, do you think anything is going to be done to tone down Fate and Time so they aren't considered the god Arcanum?

>>47625203
>"Cara mia~"
>"Mon cher~"

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>>47625362

I do not have much faith in White Wolf/Onyx Path's ability to listen to feedback and errata, though I am at least thankful to DaveB for having acknowledged the Quantum Flux + Exceptional Luck infinite loop and seeking to correct it.

I am regretful that I had only really begun to look into Mage 2e a few days ago. If I had discovered it earlier, I might have had a chance to actually post in the official errata and FAQ threads.

>>47625203
>>47625388

It is worth noting that Augment Mind with a Rote single-handedly makes a mage near-unstoppable in the Astral Realms, since a mage can bolster their Intelligence/Presence, Wits/Manipulation, and Resolve/Composure to Herculean heights, which then become their Power, Finesse, and Resistance. They can even use One Mind, Two Thoughts' +1 and +2 Reach options to take two actions at any given time.

There is also a host of Astral-related Mind spells from the old 1e Astral Realms book to use as a basis for creative thaumaturgy.

A Mastigos (or anyone with a Legacy with Mind as a Ruling Arcanum) is a near-unstoppable juggernaut in the Astral.

Okay, let's think how we can make Matter a worthwhile Arcanum. Because I can't think of a better way to use it than conjuring gold, diamonds and heroin, and that's pretty shitty way to use it.

>>47624996
>grind Prime to the ground
Can you elaborate?

>>47625568
They took everything that made Prime good (counterspelling, dispelling, Mana vacuuming, Phantasms) and stamped on them over and over and over. Then they took the remains, mixed them with shit, threw a terrible Mage Armor on top and told us to just deal with it.

>>47625546
>conjuring drugs
>shitty use

But you could sell crack! To children!

>>47625604
>Phantasms
How do you reckon this? They moved the actually useful phantasms down one notch. How is that a nerf?

>>47625691
Eh? Platonic Form is 3 dots and Eidolon is five. They got rid of the 2 dot phantasmal images and required Mind 5 to make Tulpa equivalents

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>>47625546

Matter seems to be pushed towards a direction of "Transmute objects in your sanctum away from the prying eyes of Sleepers, and then bring along your wondrous creations." A Matter mage can feasibly never suffer from Paradox or Dissonance if they do their work away from mortals, and their Matter 2 Attainment gives them longer-lasting effects.

Matter's premade spells are a mixed bag, like most other Arcana. You should, for example, discard Find the Balance entirely unless you have a very high dice pool to make the most of 9- or 8-again. On the other hand, there are some "universal" premade spells like Shaping and Transubstantiation that make good Praxes and Rotes, and Crucible's first +1 Reach effect is fantastic for granting the rote quality.

>>47625604

It seems that the ideal way to try to redeem Prime is to make the most of its new "truths" purview element, using it to try to solve mysteries and power through social situations. Prime 1's Pierce Deception, for example, is fantastic for any investigation or social situation, though you will surely have to use creative thaumaturgy to improvise more "truth"-based spells.

>>47625604
>counterspelling
Universal counterspell is Prime 2.

>dispelling
Available from Prime 1.

>Mana vacuuming
There is no spells for that in core book, but there is no reason you can't make your own.

>Phantasms
Yeah, that's a loss.

>terrible Mage Armor
How the fuck it's terrible, being one of the few armors which actually grant Armor rating?

>>47625718
Yeah, the illusory images is Forces now. But Platonic Form is 3 dots, but Phantasmal Weapon (the first one with equipment modifier) was Prime 4 before.

>>47625738
>A Matter mage can feasibly never suffer from Paradox or Dissonance
Given that there is no vulgar spells now, any mage with a head on their shoulders have no reason to suffer from Paradox or Dissonance.

>>47624362
http://pastebin.com/7sSgGVPH
New pastebin, with the links from the last thread included.

>>47625760
>There is no spells for that in core book, but there is no reason you can't make your own.

Book sets the guidelines, if there's none in there when they were in 1e, that's a deliberate decision to remove that aspect by the dev.

>How the fuck it's terrible, being one of the few armors which actually grant Armor rating?

Against purely magical attacks. Who the fuck uses direct damage spells when you can just materialize a car above their head, change their destiny so a bullet ricochets into their heart or turn the air into mustard gas.

>>47624880
http://www.mediafire.com/download/a1kpjrm41yzozkq/V20_Ghouls_%26_Revenants.pdf

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>>47625760

Dispelling, one of the most important facets of Prime in 1e, is now rather inconvenient to use due to the Reach required to make the dispel Lasting. It also has to penetrate a Withstand rating, which the enemy mage could very well raise by +2 using a Reach for Advanced Potency.

At least even ritual-cast spells can be dispelled now, since a dispel need not go through Potency.

>>47625801

Yes, that is my point. It is much easier for some Arcana (e.g. Fate, Mind) than others (e.g. Forces, Matter), however.

>>47625718
>required Mind 5 to make Tulpa equivalents

Eh. That was required in 1e too... Anything that involves creating a new mind requires Mind 5.

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Of note is the fact that a properly-built changeling can be a reasonably effective "mage hunter." For now, let us set aside whether or not they can directly add their Clarity to their Withstand rating.

On one hand, changelings now have a much weaker Mask that just about any mage could see through:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2K8R3qXyDyoUTRSemVyb3k1QTA/view
>Fae beings, ensorcelled mortals, and other supernaturals with mystical senses can see through the Mask.

On the other hand, any changeling with Clarity 4+ can reflexively do this:

>Kenning
>Any changeling can use a reflexive action to detect the presence of magic in the area. Roll Clarity as a dice pool. The Storyteller may make this roll on the character's behalf as a reflexive ability. At Clarity 4 or less, this requires a Willpower point and an instant action. It can no longer be done reflexively.

>If the magic is intended to hide, obfuscate, conceal, disguise, or confuse, instead add her Clarity to her dice pool in a Clash of Wills (see p. XX).

>Roll Results
>Dramatic Failure: Some lie takes shape in the character's mind, making her see something where nothing sinister exists or go oblivious to an obvious supernatural danger. Choose a Condition reflecting this temporary delusion.
>Failure: The character receives no impression of magic in the area.
>Success: With a success, the changeling gains an impression of any supernatural presences and forces that lurk in the area. For each success rolled, ask one yes or no question of the Storyteller, relating to the magic in question. She must answer correctly and provide sensory clues as to the answer.
>Exceptional Success: The changeling not only senses the presence of the occult, but sees its truest supernatural nature. She sees bloody fangs and cold hunger if she senses a vampire, a werewolf’s hybrid form, or a path of thorns leading to a fae creature's bone-littered lair.

Thus, it is not too difficult for a changeling to detect sorcery. (Continued.)

>>47625828
>turn the air into mustard gas.
How would Time, Fate, Space or Mind work against that?

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>>47625854

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2K8R3qXyDyob0hVNEVhbkx4SlU/view
>Select five dots worth of Contracts from p. XX. At least two dots have to be in Contracts that feature your character’s Seeming as a favored option. If you purchase a Contract with affinity for your character’s Seeming, you get that affinity effect for free. You cannot start play with the affinity effects for other Seemings.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2K8R3qXyDyoMlpFZWYyWUQxQWc/view
>Universal and Goblin Contracts are shaped through Wyrd as the changeling uses her fae heritage to alter the world around her, and these Contracts increase in power when her Wyrd rises. Court Contracts, on the other hand, are shaped through Mantle.

Courts are a bit too city-specific in Changeling 2e, so we are looking for a good Universal Contract that can help against mages. Our answer can be found in pages 288-289 of Dark Eras.

>Contract of Abjuration (•–•••••)
>The changeling stands forward and twists Fate and the forces of the Wyrd to obey her and be gone.
>Cost: 1 Glamour
>Dice Pool: Resolve + Occult + Wyrd vs. Contract’s activation successes
>Action: Instant

>Roll Results
>Dramatic Failure: The abjuration backfires and the changeling becomes unable to resist supernatural effects for the scene.
>Failure: The changeling fails to banish her target’s power.
>Success: The changeling successfully banishes a Contract’s effects.
>A changeling may only abjure Contracts at the first dot. Each additional dot allows the changeling to choose one of the following enhancements:

>Exorcism: The changeling may abjure an ephemeral entity (vs. Power + Resistance). All Conditions tagged by the entity within as many yards as successes rolled are resolved.
>Suffer not a Witch: The changeling may abjure the effects of other creatures of the Chronicles of Darkness.

(Continued.)

>>47625828
I find it hilarious how they made a big deal about wanting to move away from the whole 'listed spells are the default, creative thaumaturgy is the fall-back' thing that popped up in 1e, by moving Creative Thaumaturgy in front of the spell lists, but people just keep looking to the spell lists for what they can or can't do

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>>47625918

>Shattered Illusions: The changeling may abjure all supernatural effects she is capable of countering within Wyrd x 10 yards. Each entity or power’s resistance is rolled individually.
>Fae Wards: The changeling may ward a single Wyrd x 10 yard area against any power she is capable of countering. The changeling and any who live in the warded location are exempt from the ward’s effects. The abilities of other entities, or powers cast by anyone else, within or targeted at the area the ward protects, triggers its defenses with a Clash of Wills. The ward survives against as many attacks or days as successes rolled, whichever is fewer.

>Exceptional Success: Allies who witness the abjuration are filled with a sense of clarity and resolve. They gain the Steadfast Condition.

>• Fairest: The Fairest command the Wyrd with great authority. They achieve an exceptional success with three successes instead of five.
>• Ogre: An Ogre’s enemies who witness the abjuration are filled with dread, and gain the Spooked Condition.
>• Elemental: An Elemental may manifest her primary element during the abjuration and gain a +3 as the natural elements reject the supernatural effect.

>Catch: The changeling invokes a formal position of authority that is recognized by the one she is abjuring.

Here we are. An Elemental changeling could feasibly start with a rather high Resolve and Occult, invest all five dots in Contract of Abjuration, and then shred apart any and all supernatural powers they can catch in their Shattered Illusions radius.

The trick here is that mages will tend to aim for only one, three, or five successes due to the way spellcasting works. This plays right into the changeling's hands, as Contract of Abjuration specifically looks for "activation successes" rather than Potency.

Could this work against Mage Armor, I wonder? It is certainly an "effect," yet it has no activation successes.

>>47625860
Time: Stop needing to breathe.
Space: Squeeze through the locked doors and run. Create tiny fresh-air portals inside your nostrils.

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>>47624996
People give you crap but I love your posts, all the way back from DnD 4e days. I really enjoy exploring the rules as their own set of interact/white room instead of what you see at a day. Seeing the raw math and interactions make me happy.

>>47626013
Like I said, spell lists are guidelines. Taking that out means people are going to assume it's not under the purview

>>47625460
Can you also use mind to affect the Satiety of Beasts?

>>47626039
Amendment
Time: Stop your skin from interacting with the gas.
Space: Make a Ban around the affected area. Summon a contamination suit on yourself.

>>47626112
Couldn't you also teleport the afflicted air at the original caster?

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>>47625860

It is worth noting that *any* Arcanum can directly bypass Defense at 3 or 4 dots. Fraying and Unraveling spells that deal direct damage never contend with a Withstand rating, whether you are using Matter 3's Windstrike, Matter 4's Piercing Earth, Spirit 3's Howl from Beyond, or Spirit 4's Shadow Scream.

Whether or not Armor applies to these is completely unclear, and it would be helpful if this was to be addressed by errata or FAQ.

>>47626039

>Time: Stop needing to breathe.

Better yet, Time 2's Veil of Moments renders you immune to aging, poison, disease, new Conditions, and new Tilts and forces a Clash of Wills upon any supernatural effect being placed upon the mage. This makes it a godlike spell that helps a mage live forever, and it should absolutely be taken as a Rote.

>>47626050

Thank you.

>>47626104

That is left entirely unclear, but seeing how Beasts are tied so heavily to the Astral Realms and Mind's purview includes "the Astral Realms," it seems under that Arcanum's capacities.

Time 2's Veil of Moments could also stop a Beast from progressing into new Satiety-based Conditions, although a mage will have to dismiss it every so often to let the Beast spend Experiences, so it would be unfeasible to relinquish such a spell.

>>47626143
I honestly don't know.

>>47625061

It's great for city building, actual cartography not as much.

>>47625211
It's just that that mortals don't encounter/interact with spirits, not like there is so few of them. They just aren't noticed until they Manifest.

>>47625615

Take some Life and you can become a snake while you do it! Then you don't have to give a fuck!

>>47626039
Yes. But the complaints were about Mage Armor.

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>>47626240

If spirits are as common on the Fallen World side of the Gauntlet as you say, then that makes Spirit at 4 or 5 dots even better. A mage could transform any spirit lying around into the perfect agent for any given task, and that is nothing to say of the mage's reception as a greater jaggling (Honorary Rank 4) or as a literal god (Honorary Rank 5).

I still find it simply mean to Uratha that Spirit 4/5 mages have it so much easier with the spirit world than any werewolf ever will.

>>47626308
Sigh. That's what I get for not paying attention.

>touhou fag
>OP starts off with mage mastubation
truly this is hell

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>>47625860

Additionally, transmuting air into mustard gas is one of the least effective ways of using Matter offensively. Let us have a look at the kind of spell it would take for that, Transubstantiation.

>Transubstantiation (Matter ••••)
>Practice: Patterning
>Primary Factor: Duration
>Suggested Rote Skills: Crafts, Empathy, Science

>The mage can transmute any inert matter into any other form of inert matter: lead into gold, water into wine, wood into chlorine gas, etc. The purity and quality of the transmuted matter is determined by the spell’s Potency: treat Potency as an equipment bonus or equivalent Resource Merit dots for a single purchase, whichever is appropriate. Both the initial substance and the transubstantiated substance must be relatively pure: Wood can be transformed into gold, but not into gold chased with silver. (The Stygian Mysteries teach that “purity” is a perceptual concept — so, for example, even though “wine” and “steel” are made up of numerous compounds, they are concrete enough as concepts to be transmuted).

>Add Life ••••: Transform matter into living things, or transform a living being into inert matter (but see p.127 for rules on permanently transforming someone with magic). Unless the mage also adds Mind •••••, any organism created is mindless, driven purely by instinct.

>+1 Reach: The mage may transmute multiple substances into a single substance or vice versa.

You would need to spend a Reach on instant action casting, and another Reach on sensory range. (You could avoid spending the Reach for sensory range by transforming it into an aimed spell, but then that allows Defense; even the Fast Spells Merit is countered by Mage Armor that allows Defense against firearms.)

Then you would have to allocate Potency into "purchasing" the mustard gas. Page 124 of the old 1e Armory tells us that chemical weapons take Resources •••••, so you are looking at a -10 dice penalty for such gas.

>>47626379
Wanna talk about Assamites?

I hate them

>>47626393
So? That doesn't make Prime Mage Armor worse than Time at avoiding a field of poison.

>>47626396
Me too

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>>47626393

Even if you do succeed, what are the rules for poison in Chronicles of Darkness? Page 98 of the core book gives us some very deadly rules, but explicitly notes that they are only for noncombat situations. For combat, we have the Poisoned Tilt:

>Effect: This Tilt applies a general sense of being poisoned to a character without worrying about Toxicity during combat. For the purposes of this Tilt, a poison is either “moderate” or “grave” — a moderate poison causes one point of bashing damage per turn of combat, while a grave poison ups that to one point of lethal damage per turn. If the Storyteller cares to continue the effects of the poison outside of combat, he can apply the standard rules for handling poisons and toxins when combat is complete.

Which, for a "grave poison," is only one lethal damage per turn.

You are better off using Matter 4's Piercing Earth (spending a Reach on instant action casting and another Reach for sensory range, just as you would need to do for Transubstantiation) to directly deal lethal damage equal to Potency. For the same -10 dice penalty, you could deal 4 (dots in Matter) + 5 = 9 lethal damage. Even then, that does not make for an outstanding turn compared to some of the other madness that can be achieved as an Adept.

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>>47626407

I am not talking about Prime Mage Armor. I am talking about how transmuting air into dangerous substances is surprisingly ineffective with Transubstantiation as written.

The part where expensive substances must be "purchased" is especially damning.

>>47626425
They would've been vastly improved if the entire clan was just viziers and sorcerers, imo.

>>47626344

You know that old saying, "familiarity breeds contempt"? That couldn't be more true with the Uratha, especially with the Forsaken. Who's going to gain regard faster amongst solipsistic little gods: the friendly foreigner with the bags of Essence or the large angry native who tries to hunt them down every other day?

>>47626463

Considering that White Wolf's shifting the focus clans like the Ravnos to "Vampires who hide in a culture to prey on people" instead of "Vampires who are also part of a mortal culture," we just might see that happen.

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"Superheroes with fangs" is superior to personal horror in every way, shape, and form.

Anyone who disagrees with that statement is a pretentious pseudo-intellectual fuckwit and can go suck Martin Ericsson's limp dick.

Just sayin'....

>>47626513
I like the Ravnos, I'm probably the only one who does though.

>>47626529
It really is. We're in a fanged supers game right now, and it's pretty dope. Stomped all kinds of local yokel Lupines, and now we're squaring off against the Sabbat menace.

>>47626529

How does it feel to know that one of the richest Chinese companies in the world is going to invest in Paradox, and ergo Martin Ericsson? The future's looking pretty dim for you, Carmilla.

>>47626548

The Ravnos are fun save for the weird racial baggage that V20 does a good job of leaving to the wayside. Chimestry will always be Best Discipline.

>>47626513
Good point. It's a little absurd that anyone tolerates those awful Warriors in canon, anyway.

>>47626529

I'm gonna come clean. In some ways, I agree with Carmilla on some things.

While I do like 2e CofD, I agree with him on the fact that the WoD/CofD fandom can get extremely pretentious and 2edgy4u at times and that other playstyles can be explored in the White Wolf system, not just personal horror. I like personal horror too, but I also don't mind "Vampions" in small doses every now and then.

We just need to stop taking ourselves so seriously.

>>47626151
>Whether or not Armor applies to these is completely unclear, and it would be helpful if this was to be addressed by errata or FAQ.
Personally I think only Prime armor helps against that, and that's reason to take it.

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>>47626595

The future may look dim, but I will respond simply by not buying Martin Ericsson's products.

Besides, I play nWoD mostly nowadays anyway, and he has little to no involvement in that.

>>47625828
>Book sets the guidelines
And? There is still no reason you can't siphon Mana with Patterning. Manipulating Mana is still Prime purview.

>>47626595
Ravnos are dope as fuck

>>47626151
So Acanthus with Mind and his Beast girlfriend? Huh, the Lair and all of its various assorted bits must be quite interesting.

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>>47626470

It seems that Werewolf 2e's The Pack acknowledges the supremacy of mages over spirits:
>Apprentice mages can work spirit magic even elder werewolves can’t. Conversely, a master of Spirit will never be part of the Hisil’s ecosystem the way a young Uratha is. Mages covet intimacy whereas Uratha covet versatility.

Granted, while a mage with Spirit 5 will "never be part of the Hisil’s ecosystem," they are hailed as literal gods, can generate unlimited quantities of Essence, and can birth new Rank 1/2 spirits on the spot, so it cannot be that bad, can it be?

This begs the question of what masters of various Arcana can do with other supernaturals' "MP" resources.
Spirit 5 can give a pack of werewolves infinite Essence, but can Death 5 create Essence for Ghosts, Plasm for sin-eaters, and Vitae for vampires?
Can Mind 5 generate Essence for goetia?
Can Fate 5 forge Glamour for fae, or would that be Mind?
Can Prime 5 make Pyros?

>>47626615

I am a much greater fan of the "urban fantasy superheroes" approach to the World/Chronicles of Darkness myself. Each game line has an extremely heavy focus on the special powers of any given supernatural type, which is begging for a game that emphasizes the use of such abilities to solve various problems.

>>47626396
I hate almost all old clans. Five clans from Requiem were a godsend.

>>47626681
Agreed. Requiem 1e is great. Remove the emotional deadness and it's even more awesome.

Masquerade 1e, 2e, and V20 are okay, but not as good as Requiem. Revised sucked ass and it looks like V4 will too.

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>>47626529
Just do it like Tsukihime and it'll be fine.

>>47626677
>Can Prime 5 make Pyros?
Definitely no. I don't remember the source, but Prime can only hurt qashmallim, but not imitate their abilities.

So, what is the best oWoD game and why is it Mage: The Ascension 2e?

>>47626681
Indeed, Requiem is better than Masquerade

>>47626677
>Can Prime 5 make Pyros?
A ssume that you could use Forces to generate electricity or radiation that the Prommie could then convert into Pyros, but if you wanted to handle prolonged exposure to one of the created you'd need Mind or Life to counteract their Disquiet, and Space or Spirit to deal with the Wasteland.

Is it wrong that I want to run a Vampire game in the vein of the Universal Horror monster movies, and set the game in 1950's Boston?

WoD as a 50's B Movie, now that is something I'd like to see.

>>47626677

Based on literally nothing but ideas out of my ass:

Death Essence yes, Plasm no, or at least not directly (it's probably a mix of two different Essences, since Geists have that spirit/ghost hybrid thing implied). Vitae no, that's probably Life's jurisdiction.

Yes for Goetia essence.

Yes for Glamour, though a Mastigos could just urge the raw material of Glamour for a Changeling to harvest at a lower level.

No for Pyros, the Divine Fire doesn't seem to have a truly Supernal origin. That said, pursuing it as a Mystery might make it possible.

>>47626529
I'd say it's about equal, depending on the group.
I prefer the personal horror, thing, most of the time, but I can see the charm in Vampions

>>47626719
Isn't V20 literally just Revised, with metaplot agnosticism?

>>47626863

That's not wrong, that's cool and good, because you can have Not-Abbot and Costello as NPCs.

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Stat me, /tg/.

Requiem or Masquerade, take your pick.

>>47626924
Revised sucked precisely because of the metaplot. Mechanically, it's fine. But I hate that goddamn metaplot.

>>47626899
Nothing has a Supernal origin except for Mana/other Mage-specific things.
Pyros would probably fall under Prime and Life, possibly also others.

>>47626939
Size/Type: Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 5d10+25 (52 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+14
Attack: Claw +9 melee (1d6+5)
Full Attack: 2 claws +9 melee (1d6+5) and bite +4 melee (1d8+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Scent
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +2
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 12, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills: Listen +8, Spot +8
Feats: Alertness, Track
Environment: Temperate forests
Organization: Solitary, pair, or pack (3-8)
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 6-8 HD (Large); 9-15 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

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I present to you the official anthem of Clan Tzimisce.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S76CGGPqI3s

>>47626985
Well played. That is actually quite funny, I must admit.

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>>47626808
Would the disquiet effect bleed through the pocket dimension spell fro Mage? It seems like the pocket realm overlaps the real world so it's possible it could or a wasteland could appear?

>>47626455
Then why did you butt into the conversation about Mage Armor?

>>47626760
Because Wraith is emo, Changeling is Gay, Vampire is a clusterfuck, and Werewolf is furry eco-terrorists. Mage wins kind of by default.

>>47626675
Actually thats happening in my chronicle. They had some pretty great scenes.

>>47626760
>>47627176

Ya'll have a funny way of spelling Orpheus.

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I didn't used to believe in Mage Supremacy, but I do now. Almost nothing can stop a Cabal and most Mages are in a Cabal. They have the strongest and the most versatile powers, some of the best defenses in the game with Mage Armor, and the most useful organizations. On top of all this, they have a bunch of ways to screw around with other supernaturals, but other supernaturals lack the ability to meaningfully counter Mage powers.

>>47627249
Care to share?

>>47627294

Luckily you can just boot Mages out of the setting. Of course, you'd also have to boot Beast out with it but them's the breaks.

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>>47626675

Since Mind and Time are the most ideal Arcana for tending to a Beast's Satiety, and Mind's purview directly covers the Astral Realms, you are looking for an Acanthus with a Mind/Fate, Mind/Time, or pure Mind Legacy (e.g. Subtle Ones, Ascended Adepts, Pygmalian Society, the Awakening Gambit, the Path of the Book, the Morphean Continuity) or a Mastigos with a Time/Mind, Time/Space, or pure Time Legacy (e.g. Brotherhood of the Demon Wind, Architects of the Future).

>>47627129

I saw a need to correct a point regarding transmuting air to mustard gas.

>>47627294

To be fair, most of this is centered around the two "pet" Arcana of the writers, Fate and Time, which were given the most generous premade spells. To a lesser extent, Mind and Space's premade spells are also above the curve. Most supernaturals have zero recourse to being targeted with Spatial Sympathy, let alone Temporal Sympathy and time-travel-based spells.

The other six Arcana are more "normal" in terms of their premade spells' power levels, though of course they are still far more versatile (and in some cases, more powerful) than equivalent supernaturals' abilities. It is well-established, for example, that a mage with Spirit is far better at actually dealing with spirits than a werewolf, and the same could be said of a mage with Death versus a sin-eater. And of course, sending spirits, ghosts, or goetia towards other supernaturals often leads to the latter having no means of fighting back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8L-0nSYzg
No rats were harmed in the making of this video.

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>>47627294
>>47627521

That said, I would like to refer you to >>47625854, which shows that a changeling can stand *some* chance as a dedicated "mage hunter"-type.

Unfortunately, even if Contract of Abjuration with Suffer not a Witch and Shattered Illusions takes down Mage Armor in addition to spells, the willworker could simply restore the Mage Armor as a reflexive action, so it is not as though the changeling could immediately follow up with mundane combat.

>>47627576
>>47627647
NANI?

>>47627391
I wish I didn't, because I used to like Mages. Now I don't think I'd even play in a Mage game if the opportunity came up because they leave such a bad taste in my mouth.

>>47623060
Sometimes it's hard to believe you aren't about "mage supremacy".

>>47623109
They can see the magical mark Lucifuge can brand people with that can only be seen by magical people.

>>47624996
Seriously, man, blogs are free. Just make one. Wouldn't you rather have all of your stuff in one place?
>>47625331
>(perhaps because they spent 5 starting Merit dots on Mystery Cult Influence 5 in order to gain 10 Merit dots in exchange, which could very well be cashed in for 10 XP)
That is clearly in no way how that merit works.

>>47627320
The beast was in fact a very minor character at first and not even known to be a supernatural.

She is in fact an old friend of the Acanthus and has had a stong feeling for him sence their middle school days. The Acanthus just never seemed to catch the hints sent his way.

As for their interactions it been shown that the Beast is rather possessive of the Acanthus and she has mentioned she would throw the mage into the Astral if angered enough, has sent threatening messages to her competition for the mages affections.

She also has been shown to be very protective of him as she tried to hid the supernatural world from him sense high school continues to Attempts to prevent him from meeting anything that would cause him harm.

But overall its pretty fun. The agreement over her willingness of throwing people into the astral when angered was a favorite scene of mine.

>>47626050
Wouldn't you like it if he had a blog? Tumblrs are free. Or a Wikidot. Anything, really. I would hate this much less if it weren't just this giant hammer that comes down and smashes everything into powder with perfect white room scenarios that will not ever happen due to the difficulties that actually playing the game throws up. People are not robots with infinite time and no need to do anything else.

Most of the errata and FAQ for this will be things like "no, being immune to aging does not make you immortal, it just means you get to look pretty the whole time".

The butthurt is real. Is your system so fragile?

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>>47627742

>Mystery Cult Influence (•••, ••••, or •••••)
>Effect: Your character has influence over a Mystery Cult (see p. 106) without actually being a subordinate member. Perhaps your character is a “power behind the throne” or even worshiped as a deity. Your character benefits from the same level of Mystery Cult Initiation, without having to be tied to the cult. This means fewer responsibilities to the cult, plausible deniability if they’re revealed, and the ability to step away at any time.

Mystery Cult Influence is Mystery Cult Initiation+. With five dots in this merit, you have Status 5 in a cult you need not personally manage, along with a whopping ten Merit dots from the cult's benefits.

>When this Merit would grant a character a Merit she does not qualify for (such as Awakened-only Merits or Sleepwalker-only ones), she gains the value of the reward in Merit dots instead.

Mage 2e has a more specific version of the "Sanctity of Merits" rule than the one that appears in the Chronicles of Darkness core rulebook:
>If something happens to Allies, however, those points are not lost. The Allies dots disappear but you receive Experiences equal to the dots lost. This is called the Sanctity of Merits rule.
>If your character loses a Merit, you may repurchase it in the next chapter of your chronicle. You can’t just say, “All right, my Allies died. I’m buying new Allies to call.” You’d have to wait until the next chapter. Alternatively, you can spend those Experiences on other traits that are relevant to the situation. Maybe losing those Allies inspired a few trips to the firing range to let off steam, so you spend those points on a dot of Firearms.

You could feasibly lose some of the Merits you gain from Mystery Cult Influence (e.g. Allies outside the cult, lost by pushing your luck for favors as per the Allies Merit itself), then use the Experiences on Gnosis and Arcana as you learn to rely more on yourself and your magic.

>>47627896
Mage uses a different system that's been bolted on.

>>47627903
You don't actually gain the merits from the Mystery Cult Initiation/Influence, just the benefits of them, I think
IDK if that's stated by RAW, but it's an easier way to handle it than 'you can take 10 dots worth of loseable merits and then intentionally lose them to give yourself 10 XP'

>>47627661
First it was D&D, which was fine. Then he did it with Legends of the Wulin. Now Touhou has told everyone how shit WoD is and people hate it, even though he's putting problems under a microscope and creating engineered scenarios that don't happen.

>>47627903
For all that you were calling Spirit a "Mother May I" Arcanum, almost everything you suggest requires the Storyteller to allow you to do whatever it is that you want without repercussion. Yes, I will concede that it is by the book possible for your ridiculous little scenario. But will you honestly tell me that an ST will ever allow your character to back or lord over a cult that has an Initiation of ten full Merits that you personally cannot use, and then allow you to use that to purchase two dots of Gnosis?

This is what WoD is like as a system. Most of it relies on the assumption that the players and Storyteller are of reasonable intelligence and actually care about the game itself beyond the numbers on their sheet, to keep from saying that they're Mages running a Sleepwalker cult, but the cult's benefits are all supernatural merits, so you get XP, and then spend that XP on Gnosis. Or, you know what? Do it. You're now a God and you have 10 free XP and now you've got to make sure a cult doesn't fall apart.

>>47628126
Yeah, it honestly probably refers to the Status, not the Merits.

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>>47627859

>The subject ceases aging during the use of this spell.

Time 2's Veil of Moments makes you halt aging while under the effects of the spell, and there is no "It catches up to you when the spell ends" provision. A Rote makes it easy to apply the various Reach upgrades.

The real downsides to Veil of Moments are that even beneficial Conditions slip past you (and you will want to resolve at least one beneficial Condition each scene in order to gain a Beat, which is fully possible simply by rolling exceptional successes on Praxis spells), and that you will have to dismiss it each time you wish to spend Experiences.

Veil of Moments, as currently written, is a road to legitimate agelessness right from Time 2.

>>47628126

I am fairly sure you would, in fact, gain the Merits from Mystery Cult Initiation/Influence, as this line from page 106 of Mage 2e tells us:
>When this Merit would grant a character a Merit she does not qualify for (such as Awakened-only Merits or Sleepwalker-only ones), she gains the value of the reward in Merit dots instead.

It cannot possibly be referring to the Status, because Sleepers, Sleepwalkers, and Awakened alike would all qualify for such.

I have no idea why Mystery Cult Initiation even exists. It is a monstrously strong Merit due to it giving out even *more* Merits, and it is not as though there was a mechanical demand for it (simply call it Status in a cult).

Time 7: Returning a person or object to a state it was in at some point in the past.

Just a daily remainder that every Disciple of Time can now do what previously was Imperial Practice.

>>47628173

If all it takes for someone to not like an entire game anymore is to just break it a bit, they probably weren't all that big of a fan in the first place. I didn't stop liking 1e Mages any less just because someone could break ritual casting over their knee.

If people didn't abandon oWoD in droves because the rules were kind of funky, I hardly believe one poster is going to start some one of mass exodus from CofD.

>>47628230
Physically aging halts. You still die. Just like "being shot" is not a Condition. You don't become immortal, you just don't have to deal with aging. Eternal youth is not eternal life.

>It cannot possibly be referring to the Status, because Sleepers, Sleepwalkers, and Awakened alike would all qualify for such.
That's in the mundane merits section, meaning Sleepers can take it. That's also the write up for Initiation. Influence doesn't mention merit dots at all. If you feel there's no need for it, perhaps you should look at it in this way instead of choosing to believe it gives you ten free Merit dots.

>>47628234
Save Point could do that. Also, you can make spells on people's patterns Lasting and Indefinite now.

>>47628333
Aspel please go and stay go.

>>47628331
It's more that he's spending days giving the impression that nothing in the system works right. To people who've played the games, he's making pointless quibbles that anyone with half a brain will know don't work that way. To someone new, he's giving the impression that the game is as playable as FATAL or CthulhuTech.

>>47628230
I also asked you if you honestly believe it works that way, and if you believe an ST would ever allow it to in an actual game.

I said it before, but your attitude is why people like Matt are dismissive of playtesters' concerns, saying "I only want to know if it came up in an actual game". Because you bring up problems that honestly will never happen in a real game, like an ST letting you create a Mystery Cult that perfectly conforms to give you ten free Merit dots, and act like they're common occurrences, instead of focusing on things that WILL come up.

Which is why I ask: Do you honestly believe that any ST will allow this. If YOU were the ST, would YOU allow that?

>>47624362
>How do you bully your local non-mage supernaturals as a mage?

Use Mind to make everyone laugh when they see a Beast

>>47628596
Everyone knows laughter provides more power than screams.

>>47628331
I know Touhou is taking things to far and white room combat is unrealistic, but that doesn't mean that an experienced Mage Cabal couldn't run roughshod over everything except other Mages if they wanted to.

>>47628678
Except other mages and except demons in all likeliness.

>>47628654
So you could have Randall Boggs as an Eshmaki?

>>47628719
Probably. Sully is an Anakim.

>>47628678
Almost everything else is ridiculously more powerful out of the gate, and tends to be able to do things a lot faster and more off the cuff.

>>47628416

>To someone new, he's giving the impression that the game is as playable as FATAL or CthulhuTech.

Except anyone who isn't reading his posts through a histrionic viewpoint would get that what his main thesis isn't that the whole game is bad, but rather that some rules could be exploited because of the natural language that they are written in, and that whether by mistake or design, some uses of magic appear to be more useful at doing things than others. Lots of games have these problems.

And again, if people actually abandoned games because of clunky or outright bad rules, so many games would never, ever be popular. What I'm trying to say is relax.

What's that local Werewolf Pack? Johnny Thyrsus and his Mastigos and Acanthus buddies decided they want to take over the local Shadow so they can run various social experiments on spirit courts?

To fucking bad.

>>47628838
>his main thesis isn't that the whole game is bad
He's repeatedly said exactly that. In fact twice he's suggested people go play a Powered by the Apocalypse version of WoD called Urban Shadows. Plenty of people do abandon games because of clunky or outright bad rules, and many people who are shopping around for a system will see someone repeatedly hammering how terrible the rules are and decide that it's not a game they want to try out.

More than that, it's just frustrating to see him overwhelm a thread like no one else. Not even Camilla/Hentai-LARP-chan has so much staying power.

I keep saying this, but I would honestly rather this happened on a blog than on /tg/.

>>47628678

If you're not playing a game where Mages are running wild (on you!) then you don't need to worry about it. Keep 'em as spooky wizard academic/activists, or just keep them off screen.

>>47629025

Or better yet, don't use Supernal mages. If you need a mortal occultist with real power, use supernatural merits or monster builder toolkit from 2e core.

>>47629017
>In fact twice he's suggested people go play a Powered by the Apocalypse version of WoD called Urban Shadows.
It's a good idea man.

>>47629017

Suggesting a pet game is hardly calling the entire game bad. I wouldn't even agree with his suggestion (and I love PbtA games), simply because I understand the appeal of the Storytelling system and why it endures even while it clashes with 2hu's design philosophy. People don't choose to play games based on the quality of rules alone.

If his posts actually get someone to not play CofD, well, it's their loss, and maybe they would genuinely have fun playing something else. The entire Onyx Path house of cards will not fall just because a guy posts his analysis with pictures of Chen.

As for him dominating the thread, it's two to tango. When people respond, he responds in kind, because that's how people talk about stuff. And to be honest, I'd like him to post as long as he likes. Not because I agree with him, but because he brings a vein of discussion that up until now was very rare. The point of a general is that it can hold many discussions at once. If we're all somehow magically bound to chat with 2hu every time he speaks, we might as well not have generals at all.

>>47629323
>People don't choose to play games based on the quality of rules alone
No kidding, just look at D&D.

>>47629323
>Suggesting a pet game is hardly calling the entire game bad
No, I mean he's literally said WoD's mechanics are terrible. He just also suggested Urban Shadows.

It was rare because no one cares, which is why most of the posts are arguing with him. I mean, I don't mind mechanical analysis, but it has to start at understanding what the system is and isn't meant to do. Arguing from the position of ridiculous interpretations of RAW is not workable. In a lot of cases he just flat out misunderstands things, and I honestly don't know if it's intentional or not.

"The game really doesn't need to spend so much time on flashlights" is valid. "By RAW you should be able to give Attributes with Fate" is not. And I honestly don't mind the first, but the second grates on me because it's right up there with stick figure sympathy in terms of "it clearly doesn't work that way even by RAW".

Hell, I'd rather hear what Houserules he would implement. I've got plenty of houserules for things like combat.

>>47629456

>It was rare because no one cares, which is why most of the posts are arguing with him.

One of these doesn't follow with the other. It seems like people care quite a bit.

>Arguing from the position of ridiculous interpretations of RAW is not workable. In a lot of cases he just flat out misunderstands things, and I honestly don't know if it's intentional or not.

His whole deal is that Rules as Writen and Rules as Intended must be the same and that what is exactly written on the page should be how the rule works. Since CofD chooses to use natural language for how it's rules are written, this can lead to some gaps between RAW and RAI. You assume he misunderstands when in fact he understands completely, it's just that his game design philosophy differs from yours. You believe in the use of the social group as a filter between rules and play, and he doesn't. Both are valid viewpoints.

>Hell, I'd rather hear what Houserules he would implement. I've got plenty of houserules for things like combat.

Like this right here? You're never going to get this, because houserules don't really mesh with his kind of philosophy. I'm sure he's got some, but those aren't as important as an actual discussion of the rules.

And for what it's worth, he can call the ruleset as bad as he likes, he's still playing the game. Like many people, his love for the setting trumps the ruleset.

>>47629913
People care enough to tell him he's looking at things wrong. They don't care to hear how CofD strains if you put unreasonable amounts of pressure on it.

Also, no, RAW and RAI don't need to be the same because you have to assume basic competency from the reader. More than that, his philosophy continually relies on stretching the Rules as Written until they don't resemble themselves anymore. To put it in other terms, he's operating "in bad faith". Other times he complains about things where the rules are intentionally vague because they don't want to needlessly put pressure on the troupe. Yes, "by RAW" you can create a Mystery Cult that entirely gives you free Merits that you don't qualify for that you can then cash in for Experiences worth more than the Merit itself. But that's only allowable because the developers are operating under the assumption that the Storyteller and group are reasonable human beings who won't allow that to happen. The game doesn't need 100, or even 10 more words explaining that. People talk about how condescending it is that there are sidebars about gender, but I would rather the book not take time to tell me that I should not be an idiot. Yes, it would be great if there was more of an explanation of WHY things work the way they do (for instance, a sidebar explaining basic combat tactics would have been nice, since for almost a year everyone argued as if "I punch" was the only option) but the game should assume everyone playing the game is at least on SOME degree a reasonable human being.

And this is coming from someone whose personal game design philosophy is to assume people are idiots. Mostly because of rules lawyery situations like this.

I mean, I don't hate mechanical discussion. But this kind? This isn't useful. Providing houserules? That's useful. Talking about systems you can implement to bandaid things, or fix where your personal group doesn't mesh completely with the creators, that shit is good.

>>47629409
>>People don't choose to play games based on the quality of rules alone
>No kidding, just look at D&D.

This is true but they pick based on the games they know, that to some is only d&d editions

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>>47627929

This is actually true to a degree. The spellcasting mechanics of Mage 2e are vastly different from any other supernatural powers of the Chronicles of Darkness.

For what it is worth, I greatly admire the core mechanics of Mage 2e's spellcasting system and consider it to be a masterpiece of design. The way spell factors work (especially given the choice between aiming for a regular success or an exceptional success) and the way Reach works is extremely well-done, posing a riveting challenging of weighing risks, rewards, and probabilities. Withstand adds another layer of puzzle-solving, as a mage does not know precisely how much resistance they should account for.

The low amounts of spell control at low Gnosis also force a mage to carefully consider precisely what buff spells they should bring along to a scene, and this puzzle becomes even more engagingly complex when Gnosis 3 opens up combined spells.

Choosing Praxes and Rotes during character creation is also a very interesting puzzle, as it forces a mage to consider which spells they will be trying to achieve exceptional successes on, which spells they would like very high Reach on, and which spells from their non-Ruling Arcanum are important enough to warrant waiving a 1 Mana surcharge from.

The individual spells are where such well-crafted design immediately falls apart, of course. I also think that the Yantra subsystem is compelling in theory, but ultimately boils down to "Use the numerically best Yantra you have available, then the one after that, then the one after *that*," which is no puzzle at all.

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>>47628173

>But will you honestly tell me that an ST will ever allow your character to back or lord over a cult that has an Initiation of ten full Merits that you personally cannot use, and then allow you to use that to purchase two dots of Gnosis?

Funnily enough, that is exactly what I had done for my own character in a one-on-one game, although I placed the XP towards Arcana. I had flavored the mystery cult as a Proximi Dynasty and declared all of the cult benefits to be Proximi Blessings (which are, by RAW, Merits), thereby earning them all as Merit dots instead, to be cashed in as Experiences.

Is this balanced or well-designed? No. It is in no way balanced or well-designed for a character to be able to gain five free Merit dots and a free Status 5 for the entirely arbitrary reason of "They are the overlord of a cult."

Is this fair to other players? No, it would not be, because it is completely stupid for there to be such a cheesy option that gives a character what amounts to free Merits dots or XP, which behooves every character to do the exact same thing.

Will I do so in a one-on-one game? Yes, because I have little reason *not* to express any given concept in the most mechanically efficient way possible. If there are house rules, I will abide by those, but this GM has opted to play the game by RAW, so I will work with that.

I do wish that Mage 2e receives a considerable degree of errata and FAQ-balancing though. It is currently very rickety, unpolished, and poorly edited, resulting in a host of unbalanced mechanics. I would strongly prefer to express an optimized character in a more tightly-balanced system.

>>47628331

>I didn't stop liking 1e Mages any less just because someone could break ritual casting over their knee.
Casting Emotional Urging all over the world with Potency in the mid-high double digits through a Hung Spell sure was something.

>>47631035
This is the kind of thing that got you kicked out of your original Mage game.

>>47631035
And would YOU allow that sort of ridiculous bullshit that is clearly not intended to happen but at the same time should not need to be spelled out as such?

That is not an "unbalanced mechanic". It's balanced by the fact that the developers assume the group is not comprised entirely of number crunching robots.

>>47627859
I'd love it if you drowned in piss, personally. You're trying to make this a fucking hugbox where no one points out the flaws of the game. Fuck you.

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>>47628333

>Physically aging halts. You still die. Just like "being shot" is not a Condition. You don't become immortal, you just don't have to deal with aging. Eternal youth is not eternal life.
You will note that I have never stated "immortality" in >>47628230, but that I did say "agelessness."

>That's in the mundane merits section, meaning Sleepers can take it.
You will also observe that that line means that Mystery Cult Initiation can offer Sleeper/Sleepwalker/Awakened-only Merits, in which case, if a character would receive them but not qualify for them, they would receive pure Merit dots instead.

>Influence doesn't mention merit dots at all.
Mystery Cult Influence lets "your character [benefit] from the same level of Mystery Cult Initiation, without having to be tied to the cult." It is an awfully written Merit, even when compared to Mystery Cult Initiation, which itself was a terrible idea. It has, however, been printed, and so we must live with it.

>Which is why I ask: Do you honestly believe that any ST will allow this.
I just had an ST allow it.

>If YOU were the ST, would YOU allow that?
>>47631331
>And would YOU allow that
I would never willingly run any Chronicles of Darkness game in the first place, because I would prefer a system with more mechanical rigor. However, if I was to run Mage 2e, I would allow it provided that *all* players did the same thing, so as to ensure that everyone would be on even footing as far as free Merit dots are concerned.

>>47628746
>Almost everything else is ridiculously more powerful out of the gate, and tends to be able to do things a lot faster and more off the cuff.

I would contest that. Even with "down and dirty spellcasting" enforced, mages can feasibly walk around with buff spells cast at the start of each scene, and Mage Armor is a godsend for durability.

>>47628838

It should also be noted that with more open development and/or better editing, many of these issues in the rules could have been avoided.

>>47630180
>Also, no, RAW and RAI don't need to be the same because you have to assume basic competency from the reader.
Fuck you. Fuck you and go die. I pay for rules because I expect the devs to do the goddamn work, you motherfucker.

>>47631364
>I would never willingly run any Chronicles of Darkness game in the first place

Then why are you here?

>>47630180

>Also, no, RAW and RAI don't need to be the same because you have to assume basic competency from the reader.

And 2hu disagrees. Again, he isn't wrong. You aren't wrong. The both of you are coming at this from two different angles. 2hu looks at a rulebook as a piece of technical writing, and you look at it as an entertainment product. The ideal game writer should find a balance of both, but since you two are so diametrically opposed, you're going to argue. That's natural. This is how progress is made.

>And this is coming from someone whose personal game design philosophy is to assume people are idiots. Mostly because of rules lawyery situations like this.

I'm going to set aside your condescending core value and instead say that if you truly want to be as clear as possible while still keeping a system of rules written in natural writing, you need to learn to write more decisively. Your Whipping Boys work, while more focused than your other projects, needs to be a lot more precise. A good way to correct this is to kill almost every adverb and tangent in your piece.

>I mean, I don't hate mechanical discussion. But this kind? This isn't useful. Providing houserules? That's useful. Talking about systems you can implement to bandaid things, or fix where your personal group doesn't mesh completely with the creators, that shit is good.

An purely academic examination of the rules is just as important to discussing a game as the actual nitty gritty of its execution. If you aren't interested in participating in that discussion, there is a helpful video about what you can do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlKao_Pox5A

>>47631444
To play it? Are you going to get on everybody's case for not running games now?

>>47625760
>>Mana vacuuming
>There is no spells for that in core book, but there is no reason you can't make your own.
What is Mana vacuuming a reference to? Destroying objects for mana or sucking mana out of targets?

>>47628870
Yeah. Werewolves really got the shitty end of 2e.
They looked powerful at first, but they don't have any staying power.

If the C:tL playtest is any indicator, they'll be directly out-powered by Changelings as well. (Rather than just via Pledge-cheese as it was in 1e).

>>47631338
You just want this to be a hugbox where people can say stupid shit and not get called out on how stupid it is.
People who unironically use the term hugbox tend to (ironically) want a hugbox where they can't be criticized.

I don't care about people pointing out the flaws of the game. I don't want the thread to be someone browbeating everyone about how bad the system is when in typical use it does exactly what it's supposed to.

>>47631364
You do not gain at-character-creation merit dots. You cannot spend them on Gnosis. You do not just get to spend Merit dots on Gnosis whenever you somehow get Merit dots. Mystery Cult Initiation is not terribly written, it does exactly as it's intended. It does not serve as "free dots" unless players are intentionally gaming a system that is intentionally flexible. I would much prefer a system that someone like you can break over a system that is so rigid that it doesn't allow any freedom.

The fact that you still don't understand what Down and Dirty is used for is so frustrating.

>>47631381
>>47631467
A rulebook isn't a piece of technical writing, though. Whether Adslahnit looks at it that way or not doesn't change that fact. It's what the developers created it to be. And for the record, I don't disagree that a book should be written with SOME eye for defining what can and can't be done, and how it interacts with other things. But not to this degree. Again, I'd much prefer a system that's flexible than one that is rigid as hell. Especially when that system is all about being a wizard.

>About the Whipping Boys
That's 100% true, even though I love my adverbs and tangents. I'm going to edit it when we do get the errata, since some of the Attainments might change. In making the rules for the Session, I kept thinking about how I should define it and how detailed it should be. But then I realized "oh, it doesn't matter, the people playing the game will be smart enough to figure out how to handle fringe cases".

>>47631552
>I don't want the thread to be someone browbeating everyone about how bad the system is when in typical use it does exactly what it's supposed to.
Nobody's doing that. Chill out.

>>47631552
Nigger, for all the screaming your bitchass has done about NUGH NO ST WOULD ALLOW WHITE ROOM WHITE ROOM WHITE ROOM YOU AUTIST Dave himfuckingself has said no, that's totally legit.

Fuck. You, you pathetic bitchboy, your philosophy is how we end up with a pathetically, brain damage inducing game like 3.PF.

>>47631467
For what it's worth, I really do want to see what 2hu has to say about the Whipping Boys.

>>47631579
He said that to one spell and then pointed out all the flaws in actually pulling it off.

>>47631577
Dude, what else would you call this? Touhou was just shy of telling the Dev his game was shit the other day.

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>>47631532

I still cannot fathom why Werewolf 2e preserves the useless vestige that is the Renown subsystem. It does nothing but effectively limit a Uratha's dice pools for their supernatural powers and restrict what powers they have access to. Renown is overpriced for what it does as well, and that is even taking into account the Facets it can open up.

>>47624362
>How do you bully your local non-mage supernaturals as a mage?

The real question is who can bully mortals best out of the supernaturals.

>>47631659
>He said that to one spell and then pointed out all the flaws in actually pulling it off.
The very, very few actual flaws in pulling it off, one that you kept pretending 2hu didn't already have a work around for? That one, you shitposting retard?

I hate you, with every fiber of my being. You are a living, braindead abortion. You are actively trying to shut down someone trying to point out flaws in a fucking game so the whole thing is BETTER. You are a cancer.

Summary of my Mage game today:
>Moros, Obrimos, and Acanthus bring the android they caught last session to the Obrimos's Sanctum, start questioning him
>Android uses Regeneration dread power to fix his stiffened limbs, uses Blast to fire a laser at the Moros from his hand
>Combat happens, ends with the Acanthus getting the android into a grapple and the Obrimos smacking him with Influence Electricity to turn him off
>Moros cuts him open and melts part of his endoskeleton to pull his heart out, starts taking him apart and studying him
>Acanthus fucks off to buy a burner phone and call his Mentor to fill her in on his day
>Obrimos goes to check out the kid whose future-self sent the android back to kill a classmate of his, ends up following him home
>Breaks in, silences the alarm, the runs up to the kids room and uses Words of Truth to 'convince' him not to become the kind of guy who builds a time-travelling murder-bot in order to get rid of a guy he has issues with.
>Hops out the window and runs away

Honestly, my favorite part of the session is when the Moros started to remind me of those guys from the Creep Show bit where 2 guys think their old teacher's new wife is a robot, so they cut her up to examine her.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F5KQ9zlRlk

>>47631743
Dude, at this point 2hu's hypothetical Mage is wearing four or five utility spells in his pattern.

>>47631681
Werewolves need some sort of Renown xp. I never got why Mages get Arcane xp. Arcana aren't very expensive compared to everything else, and while they do rely heavily on Gnosis, it isn't much of a bottleneck in 2e.

>>47631815
Because everything he posts HAS to all be done at once, huh?

>>47631885
>mages can feasibly walk around with buff spells cast at the start of each scene

>>47631467
Wwho are you?

>>47631552

>In making the rules for the Session, I kept thinking about how I should define it and how detailed it should be. But then I realized "oh, it doesn't matter, the people playing the game will be smart enough to figure out how to handle fringe cases".

You should still consider giving it a bit more of a mechanical spine, especially if The Session has some kind of mystical arc in mind when it is performed. It's the root of an entire group's mystical power, it should have some presence in the game than just its aftermath.

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>>47631815

Depending on Gnosis, it is fully possible.

Gnosis 3 allows a mage to cast two buff spells as a single combined spell, then do the same with another two buffs as a single combined spell. They cannot be Rotes, but they *can* be Praxes.

This leads to a total of four buffs at any given time, with the third spell control slot used for general, on-the-spot spellcasting. Remember that a mage is likely to reshuffle these at the start of each scene so as to adapt to the situation at hand, and to try to score exceptional successes so as to recharge Mana and Willpower and create beneficial Conditions.

But yes, >>47631885 is correct. I have been describing different tricks to be used at different times.

>>47631841

I have mentioned in >>47590031 that Arcana are even *cheaper* in Mage 2e, compared to Attributes. There is absolutely no good mechanical reason for a mage to spend their XP on anything but Arcana, Gnosis, and perhaps *custom* Legacy Attainments; they are all profoundly underpriced compared to mundane Attributes, Skills, and Merits.

>>47631976

Yes, they can.

>>47626899
I like to think that Pyros is theoretically manipulable, but being a unifying cosmic principle it has a withstand rating of about 50.

http://ferretbrain.com/articles/article-418
>it goes into a session-by-session breakdown of how the campaign is supposed to work. It involves planning not only world-events to take place at some point in the future but actually planning how the players will react to things. You get lines like “the session concludes with the characters vowing to one another to keep vigilant over the well,”

>someone will defend this

>>47632049
Like I said, I can't really think of a way to do that without making it words words words that spell out every little detail and work out how mechanically to represent bitching out halfway. Maybe you take four damage if you bitch out half way or something. And for the actual Legacy, it's just a ritual casting that deals full bashing to them, lets them use their Dream merit at two higher, and gives them +3 to resist Breaking Points.
I *am* really proud of my idea for the Initiation, though.

>>47632066
Four buffs is still not going to let you walk through every problem instantly deflected. There are also plenty of good reasons to buy things other than Arcana. You just ignore them because you feel they're not mechanically viable, which in an actual play situation would likely leave you at a disadvantage, because you assume every situation will provide you with the time and freedom to do whatever you need done. Which, in that case, sure, be an Acanthus and once you've got enough Time, you can freeze time and solve every solution from inside a bubble.

>>47631681
The big problem is that they can't boost their dice pools like Vampires, Mages or Changelings.
Vampires can use Physical Intensity.
Mages can use buffing spells.
Changelings can Embrace their Wyrd, or whatever it was called.

>>47632182
>>someone will defend this
Well, that's because
>You get lines like “the session concludes with the characters vowing to one another to keep vigilant over the well,”
That really isn't meant to be preplanning or anything, and the hypothetical Storyteller is assumed to know their players. I mean, I plan out things knowing in advance how my players will react. Although never with specific sessions in mind, since I'm terrible and everything takes twice as long as I think it will.

>>47632066
Dude, can I have your email pls. We're doing some mage rebalancing, your help will be appreciated.

>>47632194

Why not just mess around with the Chase rules from the Chronicles of Darkness book? It's an exchange of power, and it seems like they switch rolls a lot. You also have the added benefit of just referring to the core with some custom modifiers.

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>>47632194

>Four buffs is still not going to let you walk through every problem instantly deflected.
Of course not, but considering that these buffs can be swapped around in a grand total of two turns (six seconds), a mage can rapidly adapt to the situation at hand.

>There are also plenty of good reasons to buy things other than Arcana.
I strongly doubt that purchasing +1 Intelligence, Presence, or Manipulation for a whopping +1 die on Intelligence-, Presence-, or Manipulation-based pools will be anywhere as valuable as raising a Ruling Arcanum from 3 to 4 dots (or even 4 to 5 dots), opening up a host of powerful new effects, increasing Reach on spells, and improving the dice pool for such spells.

>>47632240

This is also very true.

I am a great fan of how each of the five forms of a werewolf has a unique niche ability for use in the hunt. However, it seems that such abilities are likely to fall to the wayside in favor of any given form's sheer numerical bonuses, which are important due to them being amongst the few default methods of raising a werewolf's pools.

>>47632362

Contact me by my spare Skype account of explosive_runes , which I use as an "in-character" account for my Skype-based games, but which I can also use as a throwaway.

>>47631841
>Werewolves need some sort of Renown xp
Renown can also be earned in game.
>>47631681
The Renown system isn't that bad, once you have one dot in each renown you can have every non-auspice gift there is, and you've gotten five for free.
>>47631532
>They looked powerful at first, but they don't have any staying power.
That's a laugh.
>If the C:tL playtest is any indicator, they'll be directly out-powered by Changelings as well. (Rather than just via Pledge-cheese as it was in 1e).
It's because each developer looks at the games that are already out and tries to improve upon it (and make it better). It's why Vampire is always going to get the shaft

>>47632567
renown seems expensive but it's actually very cheap
it's just inflated because of the free gift
renown is basically 1 xp

>>47632567
>That's a laugh.
Adding Renown to Strength, Health, damage done, and so on, seemed to put them at least on the level of Vampires, and the "killing blow on Sneak Attacks" also seemed pretty damn strong.

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>>47632567
>>47632663

It turns out that I was reading the Renown subsystem in pages 114-115 (an extremely confusingly-written pair of pages, I will say) incorrectly, thinking that non-auspice Renown merely gave *permission* to purchase Facets rather than granting Facets outright.

That said, as far as I can tell, this:
>Renown can also be earned in game.
Is incorrect, as the sidebar in page 99 makes it quite clear that Renown is to be purchased with XP at all times.

>>47632567
>Renown can also be earned in game.
And then you have to pay XP for it. In fact, you HAVE to earn it, before you can pay for it.

>>47632453
Did you see the rules? It's essentially "if you aren't in the Legacy, make a Willpower roll to not say the Safeword. If you succeed, you get to use Dream at +2 dots and are treated as if you succeeded at meditating with Meditative Mind 2". I didn't want to turn the first one into some sort of *contest*, because that's not what a Session is about. If someone can't handle it, they can't handle it and they're let out, or have it toned down to regular BDSM.

The Initiation is basically torture-as-social-maneuvers. That's what I really like. Weaponry or Athletics or Intimidation rolls against your Doors.

>>47632553
>a grand total of two turns
Congrats, a werewolf ripped your head off in those two turns.

>>47632804
Jesus fuck it's the Pathfinder defense. Its fine to have unlimited power, you just have to take a moment to change it!

>>47632848
mage is literally a game about ultimate power, pathfinder is not

yeah

>>47632884
You poor, deluded fool.

And either way, while mage is meant to be strong, able to in 6 seconds adapt to anything anyone can throw at you is just retarded.

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>>47626677
>Mages covet intimacy

This sounds like the things a non-mage would say to save face after a mage encounter.

Like ooh, intimacy, whatever would people do without that?

>Fucking jumped-up human shits know-it-alls, but they just don't know the spirit world like I do!

>>47632917
>, able to in 6 seconds adapt to anything anyone can throw at you is just retarded.
>anything anyone can throw at you
You haven't thrown anything at it. You've just looked at an ability and assumed it could handle anything.

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>>47632804

>Congrats, a werewolf ripped your head off in those two turns.

You act as if all four buffs will be irrelevant against such an opponent. (And furthermore, if all four *are* irrelevant, that is a good sign, because it means that the mage's repertoire of abilities is expansive enough to cover more situations than any other type of character can tackle.)

Depending on the type of mage and what buffs they *do* have on them, a sudden Uratha in Gauru may be a dire menace or a trivial threat. Certainly, Mage Armor could be thrown up as a reflexive action, but a Moros with Matter 3 reliant on buffing their equipment is going to have much more trouble than a Mastigos with Space 3 who can entrap the werewolf in a Ban (which the Uratha will have no recourse against short of having Harmony 3- for crossing into the Shadow, being an Irraka with New Moon's Gift 5, or having some other Werewolf 2e ability I am unfamiliar with).

>>47633008
Or the werewolf can just use Incite Fury on the mage and they can't cast any spells.

>or having some other Werewolf 2e ability I am unfamiliar with
You're thinking of the Unchained gift.

>>47632848
Except that in Pathfinder everyone has like 200 health because of stat bloat. The argument that you can instantly juggle everything ever perfectly is ridiculous. Anyone who's actually played the game knows this.

>>47626677
>>47632953
I feel like Touhou is treating mechanics as law here. Having high Rank doesn't mean you're instantly an infallible God among spirits.

>>47633008
You buy too much into the Batman argument, but fail to realize that Batman doesn't have "preptime" on his side so much as "the author". Most mundane situations have a perfect solution as well, but chances are you're not going to have that perfect solution on hand at all times.

>>47632778
You just make your players bank the XP for the renown after they do something that's worth it in-game. I've run 28 sessions of a werewolf game and despite one player who is a pathological XP hoarder(hasn't bought a single thing since the start of the game), we haven't had any trouble with gaining renown.

>>47633126
And I've been in a solo game for a while, and the double unlock style of Renown gives me no end of trouble. Aren't anecdotes fun?

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>>47633079

Incite Fury is a somewhat poor Gift, as far as I can tell. Even if it succeeds, the Berserk Condition allows the target to make a Resolve + Composure roll each turn to reduce the effect to a -3 penalty.

Equivalent supernatural powers, including those of, yes, a mage, would probably be hard control rather than soft control.

>>47633099

>Having high Rank doesn't mean you're instantly an infallible God among spirits.
When you can instantaneously birth new Rank 1 and 2 spirits and can create unlimited Essence, you probably are.

>Most mundane situations have a perfect solution as well, but chances are you're not going to have that perfect solution on hand at all times.
It is very helpful to have a vast toolbox that contains a variety of tools that are on par with, if not better than, other person's tools.

>>47633126

That is still spending XP on Renown.

>>47633320
How fast can my character run from one end of the United States to the other?

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Are there any actual rules in Mage 2e concerning whether or not bonuses and other benefits from spells can be used to influence spellcasting rolls by default?

The generic 9/8-again boon in Fate stipulates a Reach increase to affect spellcasting rolls (which, by RAW, affects the *entire* boon). The same goes for Fate 2's Exceptional Luck, and also for Time 2's Choose the Thread. However, I can find no default rule stating, "Spells cannot affect spellcasting rolls unless otherwise stated."

Does this mean that for any spell that does *not* have a "This can affect spellcasting rolls" reach option, the spell can indeed affect spellcasting? Or does it mean the opposite, that spells cannot influence spellcasting rolls unless a special Reach option is brought in?

Is it even worth spending Experience on Arcana before you have a Gnosis of like 5?

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>>47633420

Under what kind of character?

>>47633836

Most certainly. The leap from three to four dots is usually tremendous, and even more so from four to five dots.

>>47633870
A mortal.

>>47633420
Is there any reason not to hijack a vehicle?

>>47633870
But you can only get 4 Arcanum dots with Gnosis 3, and that's in just one Arcanum. So pumping Gnosis to at least 3 should be a Mage's first priority?

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>>47633893

I believe you would be looking mostly at core Chronicles of Darkness Merits (e.g. Fleet of Foot, Parkour) and whatever tier 3 Hunter Endowments you can scrounge up from Hunter: The Vigil and Mortal Remains.

>>47633917

First priority: Gaining a Legacy for a third Ruling Arcanum.
Second priority: Gnosis 3.
Third priority: First Arcanum at 4.
Fourth priority: Gnosis 4.
Fifth priority: Second Arcanum at 4, *possibly* third Arcanum at 4 depending on how valuable it is.
Sixth priority: Gnosis 5.
Seventh priority: First Arcanum at 5.
Eighth priority: Gnosis 6.
Ninth priority: Second Arcanum at 5, *possibly* third Arcanum at 5 depending on how valuable it is.

Intersperse Legacy Attainments as needed, and be sure to align them with your Praxes for more Arcane Beats.

This, I believe, is the most "optimal" set of priorities for spending XP in Mage 2e. Arcana are just that good.

Friendly reminder that Unknown Armies is a game about modern day people who do magic and the price of obsession, and that actually manages to be a horror game while Mage is soundly a power fantasy wankfest

>>47633740
If it doesn't specify, it can apply.
That option was only required for Fate spells as the Boons/Hexes which they apply frequently state it only applies to "mundane" dolls. Application of reach bypassing that restriction.

>>47633917
Perhaps not first, but still VERY high priority.
Gnosis 3 lets you use another yantra, makes your ritual interval 1 hour, allows you to combine spells, and gains you another Obsession, and lets you maintain 3 spells without additional reach, and it lets you craft two Legacy Attainments of your own choice.

The advantages it has over Gnosis 1 & 2 are incredible.

>>47634213

I hear Sorcerer is also good in the "playing magical fuckups" department.

SCION WHEN

oh goody, the anime pedophile has returned. can you please get a tripcode so I don't have to read your mageposting?

>>47634183
I just want to know how fast I could get from one end of the country to the other.
Mostly I just want to see if you'd forget that people need food and rest because there are no specific rules for caloric intake and exertion.

You also assume that you have the perfect lifestyle that allows you to do all of this. Not everyone has this casual Mage experience that allows them to do nothing but bank XP for the most profitable long term benefit. That's how you get shot. Which, as you've helpfully pointed out, is pretty painful.

>>47634213
Don't say that too loud or Touhou might start breaking Unknown Armies.

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Everyone's favorite "live agelessly, render yourself immune to poison and disease, never suffer from Conditions and Tilts, and clash against all supernatural effects" spell, Veil of Moments, includes this passage:
>While this spell is active, the subject becomes immune to things that worsen with time. She will not bleed out from her wounds, and poison and toxins effectively halt their duration, as does the progression of disease. New Conditions and Tilts cannot be imposed on the subject while the spell remains in effect. Supernatural powers that impose effects provoke a Clash of Wills.

We have previously pondered over how this might halt a Beast's Satiety, but what of Paradox Conditions?

Can an Acanthus simply render themselves immune to Paradox Conditions using Veil of Moments? This hardly seems quite right, and that is before we get into the fact that Veil of Moments prevents a character from ever being Knocked Down or Immobilized, and somehow deflects any and all supernatural effects.

This is one of the most poorly-written spells in all of Mage 2e.

>>47634214

This does not hold up for some boons, which have no "mundane only" stipulation:
>Grant a number of beneficial Conditions (such as Charmed, Informed, Inspired, or Steadfast) equal to Potency for the Duration of the spell. None of these Conditions grant Beats when the subject resolves them (unless the caster achieved an exceptional success in the casting).

>>47634429
>This does not hold up for some boons
Well then it's a good thing that the application of those Conditions is already dealt with under the rules for Conditions, huh?

>>47634429
>immune to things that worsten with time
You wouldn't be immune to knocked down, paradox tilts, et cetera and it wouldn't affect /all/ supernatural effects.

>>47634463
Speaking of which, Steadfast is incredible.

Grant yourself that Condition with Mind or Fate, then cast a spell where you're reducing your Dice pool as low as possible (but not to a chance die). Then when (or rather, if) you fail, resolve Steadfast and replace that failure with a singular Success, which is all you need to carry you over the line.

>>47634417

I honestly want to see that. A d100 system probably isn't that hard to break.

>>47634299

This year, most likely. Though we were supposed to get a preview of Callings today...

>>47634429
>This is one of the most poorly-written spells in all of Mage 2e.
If you're incapable of rational thought and assume that every single issue ever should be perfectly and accurately assessed by the rules as written, instead of using common sense and realizing that despite what the spell says, time locking yourself doesn't prevent you from being handcuffed, and that the book shouldn't need to point that out to you.

The fact that these are the kinds of situations you bring up is why I can't stand you.

I want you to tell us what you would rule in these situations. How would you handle it. Chances are, anyone actually playing the game is going to do that.

>>47634529
It says new Conditions and Tilts can't be applied to you, so RAW Is God and you can never be handcuffed. This is a computer.

>>47634576

>instead of using common sense

I was gonna say "but why would I waste 4 dots on that?" but I forgot that 2e Common Sense is actually not terrible now.

>>47634554
>A d100 system probably isn't that hard to break.
Just keep the modifiers low, and yeah.
You don't want to end up in a 40K RPG situation where people need to roll under 185 to succeed.

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>>47634463

Which raises the question of, "Can the Steadfast boon apply to spellcasting even by default?"

>>47634535

Steadfast synergizes with the 9-again boon from Fate which lets you convert a chance die to a regular die. Then, you can push your dice pool down to -5, use the boon to turn it into a chance die, and then resolve Steadfast to have it become an automatic success.

Going from a dice pool of -5 to an automatic success has to be worth something.

Better yet (though the RAW here is murky), use Fate to gain the Informed Condition on a Skill tied to one of your Rotes, and use +2 Reach to apply it to spellcasting. Use the 9-again boon on a chance die to turn it into a regular die, then Steadfast to make it an automatic success, then Informed to convert it to an exceptional success.

You have now gone from -5 on a spellcasting roll to an exceptional success. Fate is incredible.

>>47634529

As written, however, all of these effects are *separate*. They are separated by periods, effectively in a list.

>While this spell is active, the subject becomes immune to things that worsen with time. She will not bleed out from her wounds, and poison and toxins effectively halt their duration, as does the progression of disease. New Conditions and Tilts cannot be imposed on the subject while the spell remains in effect. Supernatural powers that impose effects provoke a Clash of Wills.

Another issue here is that if it only affects Conditions, Tilts, and supernatural effects that worsen with time, then it becomes even *better* because it allows beneficial effects to go through.

How often do non hostile supernatural things appear in your hunter games?

>>47634840

All the time. About 1 in 3 were either benign or at least negotiable with, and the remaining 2/3rds included things that were mindless/animalistic or being corrupted by something else.

>>47634669
Remember in Changeling where Common Sense was literally a magical power for the fortune telling Kith?

>>47634764
>As written, however
Games should be judged on how they intend to be read. Some games want you to treat RAW as God. This is not one of those games.

Since you like Apocalypse World, why don't you tell me how to play it >>47634906. Or thoroughly bend the system over.

>>47634840
Infrequently, and even then it's usually as disinterested third parties.

My Hunter group only really cares about you if you're a threat to society. Some basement dwelling Mage who just wants to be left alone to explore the Astral realms? Whatever. A Changeling who tricks people out of their cash at a carnival? Not worth their time.

Werewolf who ate 3 guys? Call the ammo guy, we're needing silvers for this hunt.

>>47634922

>Or thoroughly bend the system over.

Generally, have a modifier at 4 or above, positive or negative. You break the bell curve of a game like that, and it's totally borked. Either way, that's not a great counter example, because PbtA games are not written in naturalistic language like CofD's rules are.

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>>47634922

>Games should be judged on how they intend to be read. Some games want you to treat RAW as God. This is not one of those games.

In the event that Veil of Moments applies only to effects that "worsen with time," the spell becomes even better. The spell explicitly bars off poison, but poison does *not* worsen with time in Chronicles of Darkness, as both the noncombat poison mechanics and the combat Poisoned Tilt never actually ramp up the damage inflicted. That means that "worsen with time" is given a very generous definition for this spell.

Veil of Moments is awfully written.

>>47635042
>have a modifier at 4 or above
So Mantra + Material Sympathy...

Gimmie examples of tactics from media

>>47635042
They seem even more naturalistic, if anything.

>>47635052
Veil of Moments applies to common sense. Also, I can't think of any more "worsens over time" than taking continual damage what is, as you constantly remind us, three seconds.

>>47635100
Scooby Doo

>>47635094

Wrong game, I'm talking about Apocalypse World and its descendants.

>>47635100

You know that scene in Monster Squad where they kick the wolf-man in the nuts? That's one.

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>>47635100
As in Hunter tactics?
Watch any given Supernatural TV series where it's normal people v.s. monsters. Traps, plans, rituals and power counters man, but especially traps.

>>47635165

In the examples and further explanations, sure, but on the Playbooks themselves, where you're going to be doing most of the game interface? Not so much. AW knows when to make the rules stand out and how to make what they do and what they're intended to do stand out as clear as possible. It's not full D&D 4e when it comes to rules, but it's more organized than some CofD/WoD books.

>>47635215
Like I said, it feels more naturalistic. I've only read the playbooks so far. Also, talk to me in the other thread.

>>47635100
Random example? Attack on Titan, when they (unknowingly) lure the female titan into a barrage of harpoons to immobilize her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok_Zgu4OCIU

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>>47631991
It doesn't matter who we are. What matters is our plan.

No one cared who I was 'til I picked up Mage 2e.

>>47635457
Ah, yessh!

He makes a nice concept!

Mastigos with a bit of life, maybe spirit too and using that okd slave freer legacy thing.

>>47635100
Home Alone movies. Except he did it all by himself.

>>47635457

If I took away your Mage 2e, would you die?

who else thinks we should split the thread into /mage/ and /notmage/

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>>47635762
It would be extremely Fateful.

>>47635862
/notmage/ would keter out and die
Like it or not, Mage is the new hotness, and for the moment people are going to be talking about it.

When Changeling (eventually) comes out, you'll be hearing people talk non-stop about that too.

>>47635872

You're a big guy.

>>47635862
mage isn't popular enough to maintain a thread of its own

but the shitposters don't want to talk about mage
they want to point out the flaws in the game to anyone who will listen
so they'll post her anyways

I'm taking a break from this place until touhoufag fucks off and some new books come out.

>>47636548
>some new books come out
We got Beast, Exalted, Dark Eras, Mage, and The Pack. Onyx Path is going to fast, and won't release another book until 2018.

>>47636686
But half of those are shit, anon

>>47636548

Hopefully Promethean comes out this month.

>>47636764
Hope Promie gets some love.

>>47634922
God I want to take a hammer to your fucking kneecaps.

No, the game should be judged, fuckface, on how it is actually written. If RAW and RAI don't match, they should be rewritten until they do.

Why the goddamn flying fuck do you want to encourage bad game design?

>>47637111
RAW and RAI will never match. I'm not encouraging bad game design. I'm not saying rules shouldn't be written clearly. I'm saying that making stupid arguments like freezing your own personal time somehow makes you immune to fucking handcuffs because that's mechanically represented by "a Tilt" doesn't make the game fucking broken. I do not need games to spell out everything to me. If I wanted an unbending strict interpretation of mechanics, I would play a fucking video game. The benefit of a roleplaying game is that it doesn't NEED to spend one hundred words or more explaining in excruciating detail when it should and shouldn't apply. People like you are why "Rule Zero" exists as an actual rule instead of the unspoken acknowledgement that the rules can't cover every fucking thing.

I'm not arguing that games shouldn't be written well. But I want the attention to be where it fucking matters, not spells that are clearly intended to do a specific thing. A game's RAW only needs to be clear enough that you can understand RAI.

About Mage 2e:

Are any of you guys playing in the japanese setting of the book? If so how is it going? Any tips or cool game ideas for it? And how do you avoid falling into magical weaboo realm with this stuff?

Thanks.

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>>47637242
Fuck you. Literally eat all the dicks. Yes, rules can and will match their written and intended form, you stupid little shit.

God, I hate you so goddamn fucking much. That is the job of the designer. To match intent and written. Because so often your whining and cunting about how it's a white room or how no ST would ever allow it is just flat out and out fucking wrong.

In fact, if an ST wasn't allowing me to do what's actually on the paper constantly? I'd walk, and so would a LOT of other people. If it's too strong, if it's too powerful? CHANGE. WHAT. IS ON. THE FUCKING. PAPER.

But you've got your head so far up your fucking ass you can't understand that. A game IS meant to be judged on how it's written, you little shitstain. You are objectively fucking wrong.

>>47637418
>urban fantasy in japan
>avoid falling into magical weeaboo realm

m8 cut your losses and just hand out the fox ears + tails during character creation.

>>47637421
They're working on that Anon, just for now we'll have to make do eating our bags of dicks.

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>>47637421
You expect someone to literally think of every single situation ahead of time and spell them out for you?

>In fact, if an ST wasn't allowing me to do what's actually on the paper constantly? I'd walk, and so would a LOT of other people. If it's too strong, if it's too powerful? CHANGE. WHAT. IS ON. THE FUCKING. PAPER.
Half of what we're talking about relies on grossly misinterpreting what's on the paper. If you want to be a rules lawyering jackass, people aren't even going to want to play with you in the first place. We're talking about shit that shouldn't need to be spelled out for you. Good game design isn't just about detailing every possible interaction, it's about conveying the intent. As long as the rules convey the intent reasonably well, they do their job. And if you argue that a Time spell that keeps you from aging also means you can't be handcuffed, you are trying to argue in favour of something that you know damned well is not what is intended.

The only time RAW matters is when there's confusion over what was intended. Games are written for human beings, not robots. You can fill in the blanks like "the rules don't say I need to eat and can't walk through walls, but I'll use common sense to assume I need food and am not a ghost", you can also fill in the blanks when it comes to a spell that keeps you from being poisoned or aging also not keeping you from being handcuffed just because it technically uses the same subsystem. This isn't a Final Fantasy game.

>>47637552
>Arguing against rules lawyering is being That Guy
How do you people even find games if this is the attitude you have. I remember when arguing that the rules can be read in a way that lets you do whatever you want when that clearly isn't what the rules are meant to say was considered being That Guy. I guess rules lawyering is okay now if you put on a hyper polite affectation and post cute animu girls.

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>>47637755
Yes, but here's what you are arguing against, you talking abortion.

>While this spell is active, the subject becomes immune to things that worsen with time. She will not bleed out from her wounds, and poison and toxins effectively halt their duration, as does the progression of disease. New Conditions and Tilts cannot be imposed on the subject while the spell remains in effect. Supernatural powers that impose effects provoke a Clash of Wills.

You are whining and cunting that common sense prevents things from it stopping you from getting handcuffed.

WHY IS THAT COMMON SENSE? It's explcitly what it stops. It stops Tilts. It's fucking magic. How is it common sense it just suddenly doesn't work against that, despite being the actual fucking words on paper, you screaming autist?

Same for supernatural powers. That's. What. It. DOES.

So no, keep crying and whining. Everyone else can see what a stupid little bitch you are. I notice no one's defending you, nor speaking against 2hu anymore. Could it be because he's right, and everyone else is aware you're wrong?

>>47637855
>nor speaking against 2hu anymore
Not him, but as angry as I was about what 2hu posted, really nothing he said is wrong, and I'm glad he's doing it so the devs can realise all the gigantic gaping wounds they accidentally left by being so general, and fix them before the put out a hardcopy (which I want to buy).

>>47638008
That's exactly my point. All he does is whine and cry about 2hu's posting and try and push him offsite to go set up a blog or some shit.

The little autistic darling is actually right about this stuff. And it helps to make a better game, something this fuckface is violently offended by.

>>47637855
It's common fucking sense because the spell literally explains how it works. Freezing your own personal time doesn't stop you from physically being restrained. You can't just resist an Earthquake because it's technically a Tilt. You can't suddenly see in the dark because Blinded is a Tilt. The first words of the spell tell you what the spell does.
>The mage can ward off the deleterious effects of advancing time on her subject.
Being handcuffed is not a deleterious effect of advancing time. Being in the dark does not have anything to do with time.

>>47638008
I feel he should focus on the things that actually matter. A lot of Fate spells? Yeah, they're just a grab bag of shit, and that could really be toned down. I doubt it's because they love Fate and more that Fate is just a really vague thing. But "lol this Time spell means you can see in the dark and are immune to handcuffs and earthquakes"? That's fucking stupid. The limits of Mystery Cult Influence? Yeah, clear that up. "lol you can take ten dots in something you don't qualify for and spend it on Gnosis to have Gnosis 5 at chargen"? Not a thing that will get cleared up because the devs don't treat the players like fucking idiots.

>>47638100
You seem violently offended.

A lot of what Touhou says is wrong. Yesterday he was arguing with several people about it, and even the developer said that he'd have to intentionally choose to read something the wrong way.

>>47638327
And there were other people who agreed with him.
That something can be interpreted in a way the Devs didn't intend, is a problem that should be resolved in the next revision.

>>47628711
What the fuck are Demons supposed to do, exactly? They can avoid detection to a certain degree, but once the cat is out of the bag, its out and they'll be fucked. And mages are very good and getting pussy.

>>47638752
>What the fuck are Demons supposed to do, exactly?
Make a deal, or eliminate the threat.
Force the Mage into a situation where he risks exposing himself, trick the God-Machine into going after him, send Sleepers after him, or just go wild and use your bullshit grade powers. Alternatively, make a Deal. Mages like power, you have the means to grant them power. Everybody wins.

And if all else fails? Blow away a Cover, Go LOUD, then rend that guy in half.

>>47638606
This thread is destroying my faith in common sense.

>>47638958
Common Sense is great and all, but you can't trust players to have it.

>>47637755
Wait, is that D.Va x that redhead from Evangelion?

>>47638606
Can he do that in some way where he isn't nearly half the fucking thread? As triggered as Aspel can get about this shit and talk on end, I'm really not getting the impression he's 100% of the responses touhou is getting. (Old habit from his 4E days has me skipping large portions of the thread where I see his images.)

So the subnet is gone

>>47639256
No those are both girls from Evangelion.

>>47639264
What happened

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>>47639264
>>47639392
It does that sometimes.

>>47639256
I'm far from 100% of the responses Touhou is getting. And no, that's Mari Makinami Illustrious, from Evangelion 2.22. She was introduced to be Asuka's rival, basically. But plans changed so she basically had little screen time and just comes out of nowhere to deus ex machina uselessly during the climax.

>>47639431
No it's dead for sure. Go look.

>To all of the lovers of White Wolf Games,

>It is with sadness but understanding that we must remove this site from the Internet, having received a command to do so by one of the lawyers of Paradox Entertainment. Per their terms of service, not even a single word concerning their game systems may be placed upon the Internet without their express consent. It does not matter if this is a simple list of Merits and Flaws with absolutely no definitions and page numbers referencing where they are found, or if it is a set of instructions on a system for their games -- it must be removed if it is associated to White Wolf Publishing. So to all of you I wish you a fond farewell. I shall leave the links above, as I still love their games even if they do not love us trying to help others to understand their games' creation rules. I shall continue to support their projects, and I hope that you do as well.

>To everyone that has ever come for knowledge, to everyone that has ever helped to explain that knowledge better, to every contributer (and there have been hundreds), and to everyone that has given me thanks for the help I have provided over the years... Thank you, and keep on gaming!

;_;7

>>47639502
I did go look. That hadn't been up. That's pretty shitty. I'll defend a lot of the mechanics, but White Wolf systems have always had the shittiest editing. Sites like that are super useful.

I'm now definitely a little afraid to continue working on Geist homebrew stuff. I worried they were going to do this kind of thing.

Never forget, OG White Wolf sued over vampire/werewolf Romeo and Juliet.

>>47639502
Haha, oh fucking wow.

The author of Mage 2e's Fate offered some clarifications and breakdowns for Chaos Mastery and Fate 4.

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/mage-the-awakening/883656-chaos-mastery-is-terrifying-am-i-missing-something?p=908134#post908134

http://fourmoonspress.com/Mage/ExpandedFateFourSpells.pdf

Fate is still broken as hell and immensely overpowered compared to every other Arcana (except possibly Time). I don't believe there's anything that the Arcanum cannot do, and often better and easier than the Arcanum that supposedly controls the relevant purview.

I'm not usually one to complain about "game balance" or argue about "white room" scenarios, but my god, if you want a powerful character, you would need to be a total fool not to choose an Acanthus, and a downright sucker or idiot to play an Obrimos.

>>47639591
>I don't believe there's anything that the Arcanum cannot do
Grant Attribute or Skill dots.

>>47638958
>>47639004
Common Sense is one of the things set in place by Ruin. It's just like the idea we have about addiction at the moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8L-0nSYzg

>>47639657
I don't agree with you and feel like you just wanted to link Kurzgesagt.

>>47639502

Legal threats and other gratuitous adversarial conduct by Paradox against well loved fan sites are not only aggravating, but will do little but create unnecessary ill will among fans and encourage piracy.

Although Subnet did offer a great deal of explicit rules, and Paradox was most likely well withing their technical legal rights, was the purported harm really that extensive, if anything at all?

>>47639621
And yet it can make you psychic. Still waiting on a cite that's not 'common sense' for that claim, by the way.

>>47639683
>and feel like you just wanted to link Kurzgesagt.
What's wrong with Kurzesagt?

>>47639621
>Grant Attribute or Skill dots.

I'm not certain that Fate can't do that. However, it can certainly grant significant bonuses to relevant attribute and skill *dice pools* and rolls, rendering the alleged "deficiency" all but meaningless or illusory.

There seems to be no hard limits on Fate at all.

>>47639703
What part of Fate makes you psychic?

>>47639707
Nothing, it's great. I like the one he did with CGPGrey.

>>47639752
It can't, and there are plenty. For one, Fate works with what it has. You can't create an object with Fate, you can just cause one to come to you, eventually.

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>>47639591

Choose the Slain offers a disturbing amount of "perfect" effects such as reducing damage to 0, selectively negating Conditions and Tilts (yes, even Paradox Conditions with +2 Reach), gaining at-will rote action at no cost, and lowering an enemy's Withstand/Contesting/Resisting traits to 0.

Grant Wish ensures that any given mage with Fate 4 is hailed as a demigod who can make everyone's dreams come true.

Greater Blessing/Curse is far too flexibile and niche-disrespecting if it can duplicate effects from virtually any other Arcanum.

Reading the Outmost Eddies having lingering effects after its Duration has expired is stupid because it means a mage can spam this:
>As a blessing, the subject achieves an exceptional success on three successes instead of five. This affects a number of rolls equal to Potency, chosen before the dice have been rolled.

And enjoy its effects on all rolls at all times, including spellcasting rolls, without it consuming spell control.

Shifting the Odds not requiring an Advanced Duration is also a poor decision considering that it is one of Fate's best spells. A mage can use it to stumble right into exactly what she needs within an hour, duplicating the effects of Ally, Contacts, Mentor, Resources, or Retainer at a dot level equal to the mage's Fate dots. This means that a mage with Fate 2+ seldom needs conventional Social Merits, and if it is not particularly bound by Duration, then it effectively gives a mage a free check over such benefits.

While this is a step up over Chaos Mastery, it is not much of an improvement to Fate's balance issues overall, and it actually *strengthens* Fate at 1-3 dots.

>>47639816

>What part of Fate makes you psychic?
Have a look at Greater Blessing/Curse's Reach options.

>>47639264

Truly they were an RP sub net

>>47639845
>Have a look at Greater Blessing/Curse's Reach options.
I'm not seeing how that makes you psychic. Except by accident. That spell is a stupid clusterfuck. I assumed he meant existing spells can make you psychic.

Honestly these spells that are meant to be a "blown out" Chaos Mastery have all the same problems. Greater Blessing/Curse is basically just telling the Storyteller "I don't know, you deal with it". It's honestly really dumb and I hate it.

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>>47639845

To express the ramifications of Reading the Outmost Eddies another way, a mage with Fate 1 now has the ability to exceptionally succeed on *all* rolls at only three successes... forever, without any spell control slots. The mage can also pass this benefit onto anyone else they please.

This is not a good idea.

>>47639949

Greater Blessing/Curse can cover Death, Mind, and even Spirit effects for some bizarre reason.

>>47639949
>I assumed he meant existing spells can make you psychic
Forge Destiny can grant Supernatural Merits. That includes Psychometry and Telepathy.

>>47639949
>>47639966
Oh, wait. It's only Compelling. Still, this is the epitome of "lol, iunno".
It's a thing that's so adjacent to something I'd like that it bothers me. Like, if it could mimic a Compelling spell through coincidence at the Storyteller's discretion, that'd be one thing. If it's literally another spells' specific effects, that's dumb.

Like... someone accidentally benefiting Word of Command's effects? Neat. Also potentially hilarious. But the literal spell Word of Command cast by... what, the ST? That's dumb.

>>47640012
Something that Mages can't benefit from. Although I guess the "you" was just ambiguous there.

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>>47640012

And also Biokinesis and Psychokinesis (which includes Cryokinesis, Electrokinesis, and Pyrokinesis). I am still not entirely sure how Fate transforms people into superheroes.

>>47639845
And now I know Adslahnit's OPP forum name.

>>47640033
That's because you're dumb and keep thinking of it like that. You go "lol it makes you a superhero". The spell itself goes "THOU ART CHOSEN, TAKE UP THY SWORD AND SLAY THE WICKED BEAST".

>>47640033
I would assume the justification is that everyone has the potential for those powers (given the fact that any Mortal with GM agreement can purchase them at any time), and with Fate you temporarily bring that possibility into fruition.

>>47638752
Fight fire with fire. Use Ripping the Gates to get into the Hedge and than spam the Exploit that lets you copy powers. In the Hedge you don't have to worry about alerting the GM so you can run hog wild.

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/mage-the-awakening/880060-awakening-second-edition-faq-thread?p=905886#post905886
>>Please forgive me if I have already posted something that has already been covered in this thread..
>Every single one has been asked multiple times.

>>47640094
>In the Hedge you don't have to worry about alerting the GM
Is that true? I would look it up, but the subnet is dead.
Too soon?

>>47640073
X-gene

>>47639591
>don't believe there's anything that the Arcanum cannot do, and often better and easier than the Arcanum that supposedly controls the relevant purview.
Entropy? Is that you my old friend?

>>47640058
1: Why are you such a stalker, Aspel?
2: That's a dumb and flimsy justification and you know it.

>>47640110
>X-Gene
Pretty much.

I like the Silver Ladder when they go full Imperium of Man with regards to the Elemental Precept of Thunder.

Purge the Vampiric filth that plagues Sleepers souls, excise the God-Machine which would decide our fate, cherish the Prometheans who would seek to rejoin our bretheren, pity the Changelings whose destiny was stolen from them, and fail fucking horribly because you lost the game before you even started playing and your lack of Wisdom comes with lack of wisdom.

>>47640110
>The God-Machine has no influence in the Hedge and its agents cannot enter by will or by accident. The God-Machine likewise cannot see into the Hedge, though some demons speculate the area is simply another one of its many processes.
The Hedge is therefore one of the few relatively safe places
a Demon can go to avoid the God-Machine and its agents.
Travel there is not particularly safe, but sometimes it’s much
better than the alternatives.

The Dark Eras link is broken.

>>47640175
I was literally looking at the post linked in this thread, then double checked to see if it really was Ads. You're stalking me, stalker.
Also that's a great justification. I actually like that spell and it fits with the theme of being a Witch or Enchantress.

>>47640221
http://pastebin.com/7sSgGVPH

>>47640221

See >>47625822

>>47640225
You're getting real creepy, lad.

>>47634429
>We have previously pondered over how this might halt a Beast's Satiety, but what of Paradox Conditions?

>Supernatural powers that impose effects provoke a Clash of Wills.

By the way I'm reading it, yeah, it'll stop Paradox Conditions, as long as you win the Clash of Wills against yourself.

>>47640390
>as long as you win the Clash of Wills against yourself.
"I choose to fail"

>>47640390
>>47640432
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfYbgdo8e-8

>>47640471

There can only be one

RP Portal is dead :(

To all of the lovers of White Wolf Games,

It is with sadness but understanding that we must remove this site from the Internet, having received a command to do so by one of the lawyers of Paradox Entertainment. Per their terms of service, not even a single word concerning their game systems may be placed upon the Internet without their express consent. It does not matter if this is a simple list of Merits and Flaws with absolutely no definitions and page numbers referencing where they are found, or if it is a set of instructions on a system for their games -- it must be removed if it is associated to White Wolf Publishing. So to all of you I wish you a fond farewell. I shall leave the links above, as I still love their games even if they do not love us trying to help others to understand their games' creation rules. I shall continue to support their projects, and I hope that you do as well.

To everyone that has ever come for knowledge, to everyone that has ever helped to explain that knowledge better, to every contributer (and there have been hundreds), and to everyone that has given me thanks for the help I have provided over the years... Thank you, and keep on gaming!

>>47640432
Well, I guess you could voluntarily fail your Clash of Wills against the Paradox Condition and allow it to take place, but you couldn't voluntarily fail the roll you make for the Paradox Condition in the Clash of Wills any more than you could voluntarily fail the roll to see if you got hit with Paradox in the first place.

So, should the Hedge be treated as a Fate-aligned Emanation Realm, or something else entirely?

>>47641357
Dave is strongly against Changeling Arcadia and Mage Arcadia being the same thing. Thankfully, he has no control over your chronicle.

>>47641388
So Dave whacks off to Acanthus, but NOT CtL-fae specifically?

Good to know.

>>47641357
I'd treat it like the Underworld treats Death.
As in, no casting benefit, but decrease Paradox dice from any Fate spell by 2.

Arcadia is no Supernal realm, but its Sympathy could work to mask workings of Fate from the attention of the Abyss.

>>47641430
That's also how the Astral treats Mind.